How To Overcome The Toughest Moment Of Your Life - Ashley Cain

1. 0:00 – 0:44

   Intro

   1. ACAshley Cain0:00

      You wish for so many things, don't you? You think, "I want that house. I want that car. I'd love to go on that holiday. I wish I could lose weight. I wanna look good. I want that woman. I want that man." Imagine that your only wish in the world wasn't anymore that you want your baby to live. Or when your baby dies, you want her in your arms and you want it to be peaceful. Imagine that's the one thing that you're wishing for in this world. That's all I could hope for. That was my new hope. (wind blowing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:37

      Ashley Kane, welcome to the show.

   3. ACAshley Cain0:39

      Thank you for having me.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:41

      The last time that we were together, in person, was TupTup

2. 0:44 – 7:14

   Ashley’s Life Since Ex On The Beach

   1. CWChris Williamson0:44

      Palace VIP, in Newcastle. A very long time ago.

   2. ACAshley Cain0:48

      You're joking?

   3. CWChris Williamson0:49

      Last time that we were together.

   4. ACAshley Cain0:51

      Wow.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:52

      A lot of things have changed-

   6. ACAshley Cain0:54

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson0:54

      ... over the last few years. When we first became friends, you were coming out the back of doing reality TV, did Ex On The Beach. Uh, you were starting businesses and doing a bunch of other things. We haven't caught up since then. What's happened with life?

   8. ACAshley Cain1:15

      (sighs) I'd say, the Ashley Kane that you know has disappeared, vanished, evaporated. Um, what's happened with life? I'd say that I've probably gone through the most traumatic experience that I believe that a human being could, you know. I always thought I was living the life before. I thought for a guy in his twenties, it didn't get much better. Until I had my beautiful daughter, Azalea. When I had that little girl, she made me understand what life truly was. The crazy thing about it was, you know, two months into becoming a daddy, something I always wanted to be, something I looked forward to, something that actually made my life feel complete for once, uh, I found out my daughter had been diagnosed with AML, leukemia. Finding out that the most beautiful thing you've ever created, the most precious and valuable thing to you, has got a life-threatening illness, not just a life-threatening illness, but one of the most rare and aggressive forms of ca- cancer known, especially in a child that young, is something that not only breaks your heart but feels like it takes your soul away. I didn't really know what to do at that point, you know. I feel like I felt quite ashamed when I found out that my daughter got diagnosed.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:18

      Why?

   10. ACAshley Cain3:21

       Well, I'll paint a picture. We went to hospital, you know. She got rushed into hospital in an ambulance. We suspected there wasn't something right, you know. Um, from probably two weeks into her being born, she had like a stuffy nose. Um, it was like cold/flu symptoms, but it was during COVID, you know, so you couldn't just go to the doctor's. Um, the doctors said it'd be cold or flu. You know, get, um, one of those things that you put up a baby's nose and suck the snot out. My grandma from the Caribbean wouldn't allow that. She said, you know, "Put your mouth under her nose and suck it out yourself." Um, so that's what, what I did. It didn't seem to, to budge. Then we found out that her stomach was getting quite hard, bloated. We thought it could be constipation or colic. That's what the doctor said. So we went with the doctors, you know. But there's something about, um, a parent's instincts that, that tells you when your child isn't right. Then one morning, my partner at the time, Sophia, she found, um, a raised lump on Azalea's stomach. It was like a bruise. When we told the doctors about that, they kind of insisted that she needs to go to hospital. We rang 111, they sent an ambulance out straight away. So when we got to hospital at the time, um, you know, she was having blood tests, which any parent will tell you, when their baby has to have blood tests, is not nice. You're thinking that's kind of the worst it's gonna get. But I, I felt and I suspected that there wasn't something right. Um, when we were waiting for the news, it was crazy but something in my head told me to stand up. Even though I knew that I was gonna get told something, me standing up would give me a sign that I knew how bad it was before they had to open their mouths. Because I knew if it was bad news, they'd tell me to sit down. So I stood up and I waited and I waited. And when this team of doctors came in, the first thing they told me to do was sit down, take a seat. Then they told me that Azalea had AML, leukemia. It was very aggressive. She had a white cell count of 200 at eight months old. Yeah. Um, and at that point, I went into a state of shock. You know, I was upset. It felt like the world went into slow motion.... had no gauge of kind of s- I had no spacial awareness. I had no gauge of what was really in front of me, what wasn't, of reality, if you would say. That's what the embarrassing part was. You know, I didn't know how to take it. Then my life changed, you know? From then on, from then, hearing that, we got rushed straight into Birmingham Children's Hospital. But we didn't go home. We didn't go home to get clothes. We didn't go home to pack anything. We went straight to Birmingham Children's Hospital during COVID. Azaylia went straight into, um, intensive care. They didn't think she'd make it through the next day, two days. Um, I was in a room probably a quarter, a third of the size of this. I was sleeping on a space on the floor probably about this wide. Um, wasn't allowed to go outside to the shops, wasn't allowed to see family, friends, 'cause it was COVID. And that's when my journey in life really started.

3. 7:14 – 18:54

   How Ashley Responded to His Daughter’s Diagnosis

   1. CWChris Williamson7:14

      What was your partner's response like when she found out?

   2. ACAshley Cain7:26

      She went straight to my daughter's side. A mother's instinct, protect your baby. Do you know the, the crazy thing about it was, the initial response for me is I crumbled. My partner, straight away, was by my daughter. And when we were in the hospital for the first day, something clicked in me. Something clicked in me. It was like that first night lasted a year. It was like I was in a cell for a year, with time to think. I was thinking of all the things that I could do to try and take this illness away, and no matter how many times I thought, and how many times it replayed, it came to the same conclusion. I couldn't take my daughter's illness away. I couldn't swap positions. The only thing that I and my partner could do was control the environment in which my daughter was in. And if that was the only thing that I and my partner could do, I was gonna make sure that we did it to the best of our ability. I know that babies are sensory beings. You know, my daughter might not have understood what, what we were saying, but c- she, but she could definitely pick up on the environment that we created for her. So I, I pulled Sofia to the side. You know, she was struggling at that point, as was I. And I said, "Saf, this room is Club 100." I said, "When we step over this line," I said, "Our baby will not see us cry. Our baby will not see us upset. Our baby will only see smiles, happiness, high energy, and feel a sense of belief while we are here."

   3. CWChris Williamson9:30

      Is there no cure, fix, respite? Was there even a 0.0001% chance of survival, or is it completely terminal?

   4. ACAshley Cain9:42

      So at that point, you know, there was hope. They, they didn't, they didn't see a case of, uh, of cancer like that in a baby so young. It doesn't usually happen. You know, for the ... The initial plan was, um, four cycles of chemotherapy. So, you know, you do cycle one, you're in hospice. So, let's say a week cycle of chemotherapy, you're in hospital for another two weeks to three weeks. Then you get a couple of days at home before you repeat cycle two, cycle three. The thing was with Azaylia is, she was very young. The chemotherapy treatments are very harsh, you know. Um, so they, they didn't know how she would get on with them. The true fighter and warrior she was, she absolutely smashed round one, no side effects. She went into round two, and there, the cancer had come back very early. So it was apparent after round two that, you know, this normal cycle of four rounds wouldn't work, and that she would need a stem cell transplant. Um, we found out at that point as well that, you know, I'm half St. Vincent and Grenadines, so half Vincy, half English. My partner's half Burmese, half English. So my daughter had quite a rare match, which they told us at the time would be hard to find a stem cell donor. There was lots of obstacles on this journey, but, you know, one thing remained and that was hope, and that was belief. The crazy thing was, you know, when I heard that it was, you know, gonna be hard to find her a match, I contacted Anthony Nolan, DKMS straight away to create an outreach campaign to get as many donors as possible to register, in the hope. What I didn't understand was how much support we had, and we had 80,000 people in one weekend register to be a donor for my daughter, probably north of a quarter of a million within a week. Um, the special thing about that was that, you know, not only were people reaching out to be Azaylia's donor ...... for once Azalea found a donor, there'd be over a quarter of a million people in that month that would go on to help other people and that are helping other people now. You know, the crazy thing was, about that whole journey is, I made a stand, you know, on the first day that I would be strong for my daughter, you know. I would be positive for my daughter. I'd keep hope, faith, and belief, and I would not let her see me sad. She would only see daddy smiling because I thought I had to be strong for her. What turned out, and what, what was apparent very quickly, was she was that strong. She was that brave. She radiated that much love that she fueled not only me and my partner and my family, but hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people around the world at that time during a global pandemic. She was incredible. She was special.

   5. CWChris Williamson13:18

      You've said that you're being purposefully strong. You don't want to step into the ward where your daughter's being kept, uh, and show weakness. But what happens when you're away from her? What happens when she's asleep? What happens when you do go home to get clothes? What's life like for you? What's the inside of the texture of your mind like during this time when you're not with her?

   6. ACAshley Cain13:43

      You get scared. You know? One thing I try and now explain to people about life at the minute, you know, when it gets tough, I kinda fire back with, imagine fearing every second of every single day that the next minute that comes along might be the last minute that you see your daughter breathing, that she's alive. Imagine going to bed at night and not knowing that when you wake up in the morning if your daughter's still gonna be breathing or not, over and over and over again. That's hard. You know? I, um, I had to sleep in the hospital. I had to sleep there. I got so scared in the nighttime. I got so scared in the nighttime that I had to be there in the hospital at night, because I didn't trust the nighttime. I didn't trust it. I always feared that something would happen in the night, so I had to be there. That meant that I didn't really sleep, which is probably why I don't have to sleep that much now. You had observations, uh, observation, sorry, every 20, 30 minutes. You got beep, beep, beep, nurse is coming in, nappies need changing. I'm staring at that bed, staring at it, making sure she's okay. And subsequently, you know, the most beautiful time I used to feel was in the morning, and it was crazy. I used to open my eyes and wake up, yeah? And I used to look to the right, and my daughter would already be looking at me. And as soon as I'd open my eyes, she'd have the biggest smile on her face. Then I used to open the blinds, I used to put my music on straightaway, I used to get her changed, and we'd start dancing. And I used to hold her in my arms all day and dance, because I was grateful for another opportunity to spend with her. I didn't have, like, had probably two channels on the TV. You can imagine what them channels were. I didn't have hardly any reception on my phone. I wasn't allowed to go to the shops. I wasn't allowed to see family. I wasn't allowed to see friends. But I had something worth more than absolutely anything, and during the most painful and traumatic time of my life, I had the most beautiful time of my life, which will never ever leave me, which I will always loo- look back to and appreciate and hold onto and be grateful for.

   7. CWChris Williamson16:44

      How long does this go on for?

   8. ACAshley Cain16:48

      (sniffs) So month three we were in the hospital was when Azalea had a stem cell, stem cell transplant. Again, you know, (sniffs) they thought she wouldn't make it through. It's quite a big procedure. You would think that, you know, stem cell transplant, I thought, you know, you go into this big room, there's a lot of machines, there's electronic arms, all this tech. (sniffs) But she just lay in her, lay in her hospital, in her bed, sorry, and, um, they just put the new stem cells into her via a central line in her chest, and that was done. Then it was a waiting game. Um, they thought it'd probably be, you know, two to three months before she'd fully engraft. Three weeks, done. No side effects. (sniffs) We thought that that was gonna be the, the end of the line. Effectively, we were prepared to go home, you know? Uh, I mean, the nurses did a stellar job, and, and so did we as parents. Um, I mean, that room was kept immaculate. Azalea was kept immaculate. If that meant she had to have her nappy changed every 10 minutes, that's what we did. So after she engrafted, you know, we stayed in hospital for another period of time, and then, you know, we thought that she was gonna be...... in remission. We thought we were gonna be outpatients, and we thought we'd be called in to ring the bell. (sniffs) So we went home for a couple of days. No, we went home for a week while she had her, her lumbar puncture done. That was to test if there was any remaining leukemia, or it'd come back. (pauses) It seemed to be fine, so we got called into hospital that day to go in and ring the bell. Imagine, this has been, like, four month- no, five months, four or five months of being in hospital, you know, fearing the worst, and then we're going in to finally ring the bell.

4. 18:54 – 28:08

   The Traumatic Experience of Feeling Helpless

   1. ACAshley Cain18:54

      (sniffs) This was a great point for me because, you know, when I had her daughter, I kind of got myself to a position with work that I was gonna be like a full-time daddy, effectively. You know, they say, like, a momager? I was gonna be a daddager. You know? I was gonna be there. I was planning my life for my little girl. She was my everything. And it felt like this was the start and this is where, you know, my journey was gonna lead to with my daughter now. I was even planning on, (sniffs) you know, telling her, y- asking her what she would like to do when she's at school, you know, "What would you like to do if you didn't have to go to school today?" And her telling me, and me going to the school, making up an excuse why she's gotta come home, and telling her not to tell her mom. (sniffs) So we went in to, to ring the bell. And, um, just as she had her checkups done, (sniffs) the nurses line the corridor and the doctor's ready to clap. And, uh, our main on- oncologist came in and said, "We've got some bad news." Um, "Azalea's relapsed." (sniffs) "But she's relapsed in a terrible way. And the cancer's come back very aggressive. And she's got... The tumors have come back in her stomach, her lungs, her spleen," (sniffs) "her kidneys, and we don't really know what to do." At this point, uh... (sniffs) Sorry. (crying) (sniffs) At this point, um, I had to kind of gather the staff, and I had to say that, you know, "That's not good enough for me." I said, "My little girl is my entire world." I said, "I'd die for her." I said, "I would do anything for her to beat this illness. And that means that I am not taking no for an answer. I am not taking that you don't know what to do. I am not taking the fact that you want us to go home. She has fought for too long, and she's fought far too hard, and we have fought for too long, and we have fought far too hard for this to be the end." And that was a point where we (sniffs) started to look for treatment abroad. You know, we were looking for CAR T therapy, which is targeted chemotherapy, which, you know, doesn't obliterate the body, but it targets certain T cells to remove, um, the leukemia. We found out that in Am- there was two places in America that did it, but they didn't treat children under two years a- of, uh, two years of age. Um, (smacks lips) there was a place in China, but they weren't letting anybody in due to COVID. So we found one last place, which was Singapore. Um, this treatment was gonna cost north of a million pound. 500,000 pound initial deposit, 500,000 pound to see the treatment through, and then obviously you have the time in hospital to monitor and test or if you have to go for another round again. So, you're looking at far north of a million pound. It wasn't like I was poor, but I didn't have a million pound, you know? Um, so we, we decided that, you know, that's what we're gonna do. We spoke to the hospital. We, you know, sent samples, and then it was a point of starting a GoFundMe, which we did. Um, I think the GoFundMe campaign actually raised a million pound within about five hours (laughs) , which was incredible. I think that that goes to show of how much of an effect Azalea had on the world and how incredible people actually are. You know, social media can be seen as such a cynical place. But the whole time during our journey in hospital, it was then a reminder of me of how beautiful the people are in this world as well. (sniffs) Um, so we raised the money, which was absolutely incredible. And like every stage of this journey, every moment that seems like it's gonna be so happy was followed by a bang. The day after we raised the money, the doctors and the oncologist came in to say that they now found tumors on Azalea's brain, which would mean that she can't travel, which also meant that she was too young to have targeted radiotherapy, which also meant that if they wanted to do a lumbar puncture for chemotherapy into her spinal cord, they couldn't because it would risk one of the tumors to rupture, which meant that, um, Azalea had to go home.Now, you think that finding out that your daughter's got a rare and aggressive form of cancer is hard, wouldn't you? You'd think that six months (sniffs) in a hospital room, fearing that you're going to lose your daughter every minute of every day would be hard, wouldn't you? You'd think that hearing your daughter had relapsed after the hopes of taking her home would be hard. When they tell you that you've got to take your daughter home for her to pass away, because there's nothing else they can do, that's when stuff gets really hard. Because I was effectively taking my daughter home to die. I didn't know how she was gonna die. I didn't know if she was gonna be in pain. I didn't know if it was gonna be today, tomorrow or a week's time, but I knew that my daughter was gonna die at home. That's hard. That's when everything started to get really dark. (sniffs)

   2. CWChris Williamson25:43

      Up until this point, you've been able to try and have some sort of change, have input in some way?

   3. ACAshley Cain25:52

      Hope. That's it. Appreciation of what's in front of you, and hope. That's all I had. That was enough. That was more than enough. I didn't realize how much and how important that was until I didn't have it anymore. You know? I can't really explain the feeling, but imagine, imagine these lights in this room, (snaps fingers) they just go off. And your whole world looks like this dark gray tone. That's how I was seeing things. That's not an analogy of how things were. M- when they told me I had to take my daughter home, my whole body went heavy. It felt like I was carrying a rucksack with 30, with 50 kilos in it. And that's how I was walking around. I felt like I couldn't see colors. I felt like things were moving slow, really slow. And my body, my head and my heart felt constant pain. Constant pain. You wish for so many things, don't you? You think, "I want that house. I want that car. I'd love to go on that holiday. I wish I could lose weight. I wanna look good. I want that woman." "I want that man." Whatever the case may be. Imagine that your only wish in the world wasn't anymore that you want your baby to live, but when your baby dies, you want her in your arms and you want it to be peaceful. Imagine that's the one thing that you're wishing for in this world. That's all I could hope for. That was my new hope.

5. 28:08 – 32:37

   Azaylia’s Passing

   1. ACAshley Cain28:08

      It got to the point where (sniffs) when Azalia was crying, her tears were blood. That's scary. That's scary. (sniffs) But they thought when Azalia was at home, she'd probably last two days. Talk about three weeks. Typical. (sniffs) She was a fighter. She was a warrior. She was a lion. She was. She always defied the odds. And one thing I'll always be thankful to her for was, there was one night in particular, (sniffs) and when we started going home, that's when you could really see the illness physically. (sniffs) It sounds crazy, doesn't it? She's got, you know, an NG tube. She's got two central lines going in her chest, but you couldn't see a poorly baby. Azalia was that beautiful, that strong, that full of life. Apart from the wires, (sniffs) she looked like a healthy baby. But when we take her h- when we took her home, sorry, that was when you could see the evidence of the cancer really having an effect. (sniffs) And there's one night in particular where I didn't think she was gonna wake up in the morning. (sniffs) And I remember I went to bed with Sophia and Azalia between us, and her eyes opened in the morning. But as her eyes opened, her breathing became labored. And I knew, I knew that that, (sniffs) well, that this was gonna be the final morning. At that point, we didn't need to put any monitors on her, because we knew that no matter how much you monitor her or what assistance we call, this was it. So the only thing we made sure we did as parents is make sure that Azalia was rested in our arms.And I just remember... (inhales, exhales deeply) One, two. (inhales, exhales deeply) One, two, three, four. (inhales, exhales deeply) One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. (inhales, exhales deeply) One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. (smacks lips) And she didn't breathe again. (cries) You know when you say, uh, "The last time you seen me in top top? What's gone on?" Whole heap of shit, mate, and it's been hard. It's been hard. You could have locked me in a cell for the rest of my life. You coulda tortured me. You could've asked me to put a knife in my neck right now from here to here and cut it. You coulda took my mom, my dad, my family. Do not take my daughter, you know? And that's where I've been. That's what I've had to go through. That's the, the trauma that I'm still, you know, battling with on a day-to-day basis now. Replays in my mind. I relive it. And it's tough, mate. It's tough.

   2. CWChris Williamson32:35

      What does this do to your relationship with your partner?

6. 32:37 – 39:55

   How Extreme Grief Impacts Relationships

   1. CWChris Williamson32:44

   2. ACAshley Cain32:44

      That's interesting. It's a question I wouldn't usually answer. I tell you what. It all starts off with being in the hospital, yeah? So effectively, for four month... No. Six months out of our relationship, I'd be in the hospital room, she'd be in the hotel room across the road. You know? We'd spend half the day there each, and we'd walk down, we'd walk across. "Hello, how are you?" Upset. It's hard. "How's Azalea?" "She's doing well today." "She's not doing well today." "Okay." That's how it was. We were united in the fact that we're both tr- trying to be strong for each other, and in doing so, we were strong for Azalea. When we lost Azalea, it's difficult. And I'll tell you why it's difficult because you build a relationship by enjoy- enjoying each other's company, right? You're intrigued in that person. You are excited about what holiday you're gonna go on, what things you can do. You have interesting, fun conversations. You probably, you know, get a lot of time to enjoy sexual relations, the, all of these things that build a strong, healthy relationship. You know, I seen my partner for five minutes... Well, one minute a day for six months. When our daughter passed away, we didn't wanna go for food. We didn't want to think about what holiday we were going on at the end of the year. We weren't interested in experimenting in the bedroom. We were suffering extreme trauma. Now... I... knew what path I needed to go on, you know? And... I knew that no matter what, I had to fulfill it, you know? And the thing is, and the only thing that I can say is, the crazy thing about mine and Sophia's relationship is, even though we are no longer together, we have more unity, loyalty, respect... and commitment to each other now than we ever did before because of the love for our daughter, because of the need to evoke positive change in fighting cancer in children, and because of the fact that we wanna honor our daughter's time here and her legacy. And for me, we didn't split up because I wanted to find another partner.We didn't split up because she wanted to find another partner. We didn't split up because we didn't love each other anymore. We didn't split up because we didn't support each other or 'cause we weren't there for each other. I guess trying to fulfill a relationship with that much trauma becomes difficult, but where that became difficult, we stood by each other. We've never left each other's side. I will love her until the day I die and she dies because she gave me the most incredible gift anyone on this earth could have given me. I care about her. I respect her, and I will always be there for her, and I believe she will always be there for me. But I think... it damaged things. And I don't think it only damaged things for us in our relationship, but I think it's left permanent damage for me to even think of getting in a relationship going forward.

   3. CWChris Williamson37:39

      Have you tried to have another relationship since her?

   4. ACAshley Cain37:41

      No. I haven't got the time. Doesn't really, doesn't really bother me. That's the genuine truth. Sounds crazy knowing me all them years ago and what I was like. I was a force of nature back then. But it's not something that I think about on a day-to-day basis. It's not something that I look to the future and think, "That's what I want." It's definitely something that I can't... I'm not ignorant and naive enough to say that it wouldn't happen, but it's definitely not in my sights at the minute. Let's put it that way.

   5. CWChris Williamson38:19

      Do you not get lonely?

   6. ACAshley Cain38:21

      No. No.

   7. CWChris Williamson38:27

      Why?

   8. ACAshley Cain38:32

      Well, number one, if I'm just gonna be normal, I've got an incredible family. Something that I thank God for every single morning. Incredible, beautiful family. Number two, Sophia's still in my life, you know. But the main reason is because I'm aware of my mission and I'm super focused, laser focused on it. And I'm kind of aware that nobody is as passionate as me on my specific mission as I am. I'm aware that you can't have somebody hold your hand through your whole journey while you're chasing it. I'm aware that sometimes you need to spearhead something in order to pave the way for it to get done. I'm aware that, you know, I am seven days a week... I am 18 hours a day. I sleep five hours a night, maximum, if that. All of these things are lonely things, and I'm fine with that. So it doesn't really pl- play a part in my life, worrying about that aspect of it.

7. 39:55 – 44:58

   Ashley’s Mission After Azaylia’s Passing

   1. CWChris Williamson39:55

      Right now, you're focused on doing things, which we'll get onto. After Azalia passes away, do you immediately get galvanized into action, or do you have to go through darker moments before that?

   2. ACAshley Cain40:16

      Should I tell you what was a life-changing moment for me? Having to write my daughter's eulogy. It was something... And it was one of the... Writing my daughter's eulogy was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Number one, because what father expects to speak at his daughter's funeral? You know? It's even bad thinking about. You can't even comprehend it, can you? You know? So I was trying to write and trying to create a, a, a masterpiece that could honor and commemorate my daughter while going through so much trauma. That's hard. It was also hard because I thought that no matter how beautiful my words are, how powerful they are, how much pain is in them, it will never truly be able to reflect how amazing that she was. So I knew that I had to really dig deep in that moment and reflect so I could write something. And not only write it, but have the courage to stand up and speak it on her day. In writing my daughter's eulogy, I realized the person that I wanted to be and that I needed to be. I realized about all the things that I wanted to do going forward and that I needed to do going forward, and it made me understand what it was gonna take. And that's why I don't think there's much compromise in my life now. I said that, you know.... that my life with my daughter was, you know, compressed to a room in the hospital. I'm a God-fearing man, so I now believe that my daughter's in heaven and I believe she's watching down on me. If that is the case, I said, "I wanna take her all around the world with nothing but daddy power, to the top of every mountain, to the bottom of every valley, along every road, across every ocean." I said, "I'll take her there." And that was a life-changing moment for me. But, t-... I can't lie. You know? I found drink, you know? When she passed away, I would drink whiskey, and I'd drink more whiskey, and I'd drink more whiskey. And, you know, I think at first I thought it was gonna numb the pain. If anything, it made me more emotional. I thought that maybe if I would drink, I could give my mind a rest, because all it felt was uncontrollable, painful trauma that just infested and riddled my body and my mind. And eventually, I was just drinking just to knock myself out. I would drink to the point where I was knocked out, just as a way to sleep. And I remember something happened. You know, I woke up one morning ... and I felt upset. I thought, "If this is the man ... that my daughter is looking down on as her daddy, I feel fucking ashamed. I feel embarrassed." So then I decided to get the fuck up ... and start honoring my promise that I made to her that day, and I made to myself. And, um, I haven't looked back.

   3. CWChris Williamson44:52

      What was the darkest moment that you went through, personally?

8. 44:58 – 59:36

   Ashley’s Darkest Moments

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

   2. ACAshley Cain45:03

      It depends. Uh, uh, there are, there ... Are you talking about personally in terms of, you know, them telling me I've gotta take my daughter home? Are you talking about personally, like, count my daughter's last breaths in my arms? Are you talking personally, you know, since her passing? There's so many moments that were, sort of, that took me to literally the pits of how a human being can feel, that when you're at the bottom, it's hard to quantify which one's worse and which one's not.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:39

      A lot of people would have tried to exit. A lot of people would have maybe considered ...

   4. ACAshley Cain45:44

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:45

      ... taking their own life. Were you ever tempted to do that?

   6. ACAshley Cain45:49

      Yeah. It's, um ... It's hard to find a reason to wanna be here when you feel like everything that you ever dreamed of, in a little ball that was called Azalia, has been ripped away from you. You know, I couldn't think of anything worse than losing a child. And ... from the minute I wake up in the morning, I turn round and I see a picture of her. That's traumatic from the moment I open my eyes. At the, you know, at the start of the evening, I go down to my daughter's resting place to say goodnight and say my prayers. And that's how I see my daughter every single day. That's traumatic ... to look down and realize that she's in the ground. You know? And there was a specific point where ... it- I- it was, it was after I ran a marathon. You know, that year I'd done the 1,100-mile cycle from London to John O'Groats. I'd done the Three Peaks and cycled 700 miles in between. I'd done 109-mile ultramarathon. I'd done five marathons in five days, in five different cities, in five different countries. Then I cycled 1,800 miles from London to Paris, to G- to Geneva, to Rome. Then I got back and a couple of days later I ran the marathon. And that was, like, the end of that year. I had a couple days off. For me, it was a bad idea. I sat ... and I thought, "No matter how much I do for other people, I will never, ever get what I want at the end of it." All these miles I run, all these miles that I cycle, all these occasions that I give up, like Christmas. I give up my Christmas period. I feel like after I've done all that in the hope that, you know, something's gonna happen, I sit there at the end and I'm still empty-handed. So, I remember waking up one morning and I just must have sat in my hotel room for hours. And, um, it was time to go home. And I thought, "I don't wanna go home." So, I checked out of the hotel and I walked ...... and I walked, and I walked, and I walked. It was near the docks, I remember it. To a point where there was nobody around. You know, no people, no traffic, just me and a bridge. And, um, I stood there for a second, and I just thought of my mom. And I thought, you know, before I do what I'm gonna do, I need to message my mom. And I remember writing this message thanking my mom for everything, telling her how much of a beautiful person that she is. How I couldn't have got to the point where I've got to now, after what I've been through, without her. And that I love her more than anything in this world. And then I put my phone in my bag and I climbed up onto the wall, and I stood there, just there for a couple of seconds (exhales) just taking in the air and what I was about to do. I'll tell you something now. I ain't scared of dying. I'm not. And it wasn't an emotional decision to jump. I just felt like I'd had enough. And the next minute (hands clap) , I've hit the deck on my back. Not that way, but this way, and I looked up and it was like six riot police armored up, everything. And I remember getting up, yeah, and I looked around and in my head it was weird, it was crazy. And I remember just scrapping, and I'm scrapping these police. But these are big dudes, they're like riot van police. All, all the gear on, yeah? And we're throwing hands. I'm scrapping, but as I'm scrapping the officers, they're crying. Imagine this, imagine that, imagine ... I'm on a bridge one minute ready to jump that way. Next minute, I'm on my back and the next minute, I'm in a melee with riot police that are crying. Yeah? (sighs) Eventually, you know, we were calm. Got my cuffs on, you know? I'm in the back of the van. I'm still a bit out of sorts with the whole thing. I can't believe that I'm in a van and, you know, not on the floor the other side of the drop. And one of the police officers goes to get in the, the back of the van with me, and the other police officer said, "No, he can't. He's too volatile." You know, "He's dangerous." And the guy went, "No, I've gotta get in." And this police officer was in tears, and he's saying, "I know who you are. You inspire me. You've done so much for this world that you can't do this." And he told me his name. His name was Jesus. (laughs) Imagine that. Imagine that. I'm a God-fearing man, you know? I believe, I pray. That's what gives me hope. And this police officer that pulled me down, his name was Jesus. And from that moment on, you know, that never became a part of my life anymore. After that moment, it was very humbling. It was another embarrassing moment because one thing that I ch- choose to do with my life is, is I don't want to hide anything. I don't want there to be no skeletons in my closet. I don't wanna feel like people are talking about me or know things about me that I haven't said myself. I believe in order to be able to move on from something or with something, first you need to accept that something and acknowledge that something, and then you have the ability to carry it forward. So I had to go home and I had to tell, you know, my family and my friends what had just happened.

   7. CWChris Williamson52:57

      What was that conversation like?

   8. ACAshley Cain53:04

      Personally, it was embarrassing. I felt ashamed for so many different reasons. Because up to this point, everybody knew how much pain I was in. Everybody knew how much I missed my daughter. But everybody also knew how strong I was. I, I was-

   9. CWChris Williamson53:28

      You're doing these 1,000 mile rides, you're running the marathons. You're the guy that's doing the things.

   10. ACAshley Cain53:33

       Well, I was a beacon of strength, not only for, you know, people that follow me, but for my family. You know? Because I was strong, everybody became strong. Everybody looked to me for strength. Everybody came around me for strength, for hope, for belief. (sniffs) And I'd just done that. It was painful because, you know, the realization for me that I nearly, out of my own choice, put my mom through a feeling that I'm going through now is bad.

   11. CWChris Williamson54:20

       Did she see the message before you got home to talk to her?

   12. ACAshley Cain54:24

       Yeah. But not in that message did I say that I was standing on the bridge.

   13. CWChris Williamson54:35

       Did she think that there was something wrong?

   14. ACAshley Cain54:43

       ... probably, yeah. You know, it was a difficult moment for everybody around me at that point. And do you know what's also very difficult? It's earning that trust, that respect back. Not in terms of, you know, people loving you, because they, they might always love you. Earning that trust and the respect back that people aren't scared every time you walk out the door, that's difficult as a man.

   15. CWChris Williamson55:20

       Do you think that they're still worried about you?

   16. ACAshley Cain55:30

       I think, I think, more so at the minute ... Well, listen, I'm very emotionally intelligent. Yeah. I understand things. I'm also very honest and transparent, so I think the people around me have a clear understanding of how I'm feeling a lot of the time. And especially as more things happen or I complete more challenges or I experience more and new emotions, I find ways to speak about them. I find ways to explain them. I find ways to, you know, deliver them to people around me, for me, number one, to get the weight off my shoulders, but also to help other people to not feel like they're alone. Maybe they feel like that, you know? So, I like to think now that they don't worry about that aspect of, of things, because I think I've proved a lot since that day. I've achieved a lot since that day. I've spoke a lot since that day. And that day made me realize something, that that wasn't the way. Sometimes on this journey a lot of things are confusing, Chris. You know, a lot of like, a lot of the time in my life after that event happened, I was confused about a lot of things. The world wasn't the same. Imagine a lot of people, yeah, a lot of people that go, that go, "Oh, God. That week's flew by. That year's gone so quick." I feel every second of every single day. My time is, is like this now (snaps fingers) . And I spend a lot of time inside my own head. I spend a lot of time self-analyzing situations, feelings, emotions. I work out, you know, what makes me feel a certain way. I work out the best way to combat that. I find out, you know, ways of increasing my mental strength. I f- I'm like this all the time and I also speak to a lot of different people as well, so I, I kind of try and work myself out based on experiences. Um, I remember after that moment, again, because I thought, "I can't believe I nearly did that." You know, "I can't believe I nearly put my mom through the same pain that I'm going through," because I was sure, you know, after that moment and after the signs of why it didn't happen, that I needed to be here, that I do have a purpose. I thought, "You know what, Ash, yeah, what are you sc- what are you most scared of in this world now?" And I'm not scared about much, you know. I'm not f- I'm not scared of dying. It d- it doesn't phase me, you know. I thought, "I'm scared of heights though. I don't like heights." I thought, "I suffer from vertigo. When I get high, if I put my hand over a balcony like that, I feel like I'm gonna drop my phone. Everything gets weird." So I thought, "All right then, Ash, y- you wanna jump? You jump properly." So a week after I nearly took my own life, I went abroad and I got my skydiving license and I jumped 20 times in a week out of a plane. At my most vulnerable stage of my life mentally, I went and did something which would challenge me more than anything else I could ever think of doing, and it was one of the best things I ever did. Again, very humbling, but again, it shown me the growth and the importance of stepping outside your comfort zone, and the power that comes along with it.

9. 59:36 – 1:06:05

   Why Ashley is Drawn to Extreme Events

   1. ACAshley Cain59:36

   2. CWChris Williamson59:37

      Why are you doing all of this stuff now? Why are you running all of these races? You explained to me about your daily routine over lunch, which puts David Goggins for a bit of a run as well. All of these extreme events, the things that you're putting your body through, the lack of sleep, the daily routine. Why?

   3. ACAshley Cain1:00:02

      Who's the person that you care about the most in this world? Name me one.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:08

      My mom.

   5. ACAshley Cain1:00:10

      Yeah. So if someone came and took your mom and put her on a cloud in the sky, and the only way that you could see her again is if you built a tower high enough to be able to bring her back down or to be with her again, would you wake up tomorrow and wonder, "Why you?" Or would you get building? I believe ... well, I hope that there is a heaven.I believe that if there is, my daughter is there. And I love her that much that the hope of heaven and the hope of her being there motivates me to be as good a person as I can be, and achieve as much in this world to help others and to make her proud. That in the end, I hope that I've built enough steps to see her again. I hope, and my drive purely is that when I'm on my deathbed, I can have five seconds of peace before I take my last breaths knowing that I've done enough on this earth that they open the gates of heaven for me when I- when I reach there. And that's genuinely the truth.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:01:58

      Are you concerned that some of the events that the approach that you're taking, raising money, you have a foundation, you are wearing orange and cycling around the world doing stuff, stand-up paddle boarding, canoeing, whatever it might be, are you concerned that that might be causing you to not cope, to not be able to integrate the emotions that you're going through? That rather than just using it for good, it's also you being able to run away from facing more of those demons?

   7. ACAshley Cain1:02:37

      I love it when people ask me that or tell me that or think that that might be the case. It's very interesting. I would say to anybody that asks me that knows nothing about losing a child and knows nothing about the reason why I would choose to do this: I have never ever ran away from the pain of losing a child. I immerse myself in it. I never want the pain of losing my daughter to go away because that pain is the only time I truly feel love. I embrace that pain. I use that pain to push me further and further. (sighs) And the reason why I challenge myself and the reason I push myself is because when I'm feeling this physical pain, and when I have to take myself to another level to complete one of these challenges, that is when I connect with her the most. That's when I feel like she's truly with me. That's when I feel like I can look up and say, "Yo, baby, we did it again." So, I would say the polar opposite. (laughs) When you look at my life, yeah, I, you know, am the founder and trustee of my daughter's foundation. That means that every day we are talking about either children that are no longer getting treatment on the NHS that we're trying to give money to. We're talking about new trials or new treatments that are available which we can invest money to. New equipment. Foundation's also got a PhD fund now, which funds new talent and research coming into childhood cancer. I visit kids with cancer. I go towards where my daughter actually was, actually going back into the same room that my daughter was, you know, on a weekly basis. I visit my daughter at her resting place every single night that I'm at home. I raise money. I speak to her every day. I push myself to the absolute limit. I not only try and create a more positive and safer space for parents as well that are going through the same thing as me, but people that are actually suffering with their mental health. I guess I'm not running away from anything. I'm running directly and head-on into all of my pain, into all of my trauma, into all of the things that are trying to hold me down. And I run head-on into it because... I feel like I found a way to harness that. To push me further than I would ever gone before.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:06:01

      What would you say to anybody that's

10. 1:06:05 – 1:11:36

    Advice to People Experiencing Grief

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:05

       grieving now, that's going through that process? One of the things that we can all guarantee in life is that the people that we love, some of them are going to pass away before us, and we're gonna have to deal with that process. As somebody that has spent an awfully long time sat in the saddle of a bike, sat in a hospital ward reflecting on grief, what do you wish that you'd known? Or what would you tell other people?

    2. ACAshley Cain1:06:33

       I'm gonna try and smile when I speak about this. It seems like a crazy thing to say, right? Um, one thing that is certain in this world is, you know, everyone that's born is gonna die. That means that every single person on this planet is gonna experience some form of grief.I've never been a person to run away from those emotions. You know? And I never believe that, you know, it gets easier. People always say, "Grief gets easier." I believe that the circle of grief always stays the same. I just believe that we grow stronger around it. I would always advise people to talk about the loved ones that they've lost. I would always encourage people to settle into every single emotion that they're feeling and not try and hide it or not try and run away from it. I would say to people that, "You know what? Even though your grief is painful, and even though your grief hurts, it can also be the most beautiful time of your life, the most beautiful moments that you have left. Because all the pain that you're feeling now is because of beautiful memories of the person that you love and the person that you've lost." I think that my grief has become a part of my life, and like I say, I've never tried to run away from it. I've never tried to compress it. I don't even wish that it's not there because I am quite happy and settled in grieving for the rest of my life because I know that I grow stronger every single day around that grief. I know that within my grief is my purpose. I know that within my pain is my power. I know that from my struggle, I found my strength. And I don't think people should hide that. You know, one thing that I do, I remember going on a run the other day. Yeah. And it's this, like, circuit and it- I went to this circuit where people run. It's like a five-mile loop. And everyone's like, "Oh, how far are you running today?" You know, "5K," whatever. I said, "Oh, you know, 30 miles." They're like, "30K?" "No, 30 miles." And I went to this, um, this tackle shop 'cause it was by a lake, you know, fishing. And I said, "Oh, can I leave my bags here?" They said, "Oh, I'm about to shut up in a minute. Sorry." And then he said, um, he asked if I was running and I said, "Yeah, 30 miles." He goes, "30 miles?" And I went, "Yeah," and I told him a little bit about the journey. And anyway, I started running and I was about two and a half miles in. No, I was about two miles in and I thought, "Shit, I told him I was running, I told him why I was running, but I didn't tell him my daughter's name." And I turned back and I ran two miles back. Yeah, as fast as I could, just as he was about to lock up. And I went, "By the way, mate." He went, "What?" I went, "My daughter's name is Azalea." And he went, "Okay. Beautiful name." And I went, "Yeah, thanks." And then I went back and done my run. I ran two miles extra just because I had to run back and tell him her name. That's because that's important to me. I think it's important to also normalize, you know, this topic of grief. We're all gonna experience it, so the subject shouldn't be taboo. Just like mental health, you know, grief can fall into that category. People talk about anxiety, people talk about depression. Grief falls into that and grief causes anxiety, causes depression. You know, the root cause of the grief is trauma. It all falls into mental health. I think it's a part that we should talk about because I've found out, and one thing that I know now is when people had lost somebody before, I was, um, I was a criminal of kind of thinking, "It's really awkward to be around that person. I don't know what to say. I don't wanna make them upset. I don't wanna offend them." Yeah. What I found out now is those people really do want to talk about the memories they have. People do really wanna say the person's name of the person they lost. People do wanna reminisce and relive those good times, but it's hard to find people around them that will allow that. So, not only would I say to the people that have loved them and lost that they should talk about their loved ones and not run away from it, I'd also say if you wanna be a good friend or a good family member, be there for that person to listen to.

11. 1:11:36 – 1:18:16

    Event Goals for the Next Few Years

    1. CWChris Williamson1:11:37

       What are the events that you are focused on over the coming years?

    2. ACAshley Cain1:11:45

       So, what, this year? Or ... Okay. Um, so like I said in my eulogy, I said to the top of every mountain, to the bottom of every valley, along every road, across every ocean. I mean, one of the big goals for me is, it's not in the planning yet, but I know I'll do it, is, um, I wanna climb the seven highest mountains in the seven continents. The whole point of that is to tell my daughter I love her from the seven highest parts of this world. You know? But this year, you know, next weekend I've got 125-mile kayak race, which is 24 to 30 hours. That should be fun. But this is, it's just training really for the 1,000-mile kayak race I've got in July, which is supposed to be the world's toughest surviving endurance race. It's from Canada to the Arctic Circle to Alaska, and it's completely unsupported. So, you kayak for 18 hours a day, find a place to pull in, pitch up your tent, sleep for four hours, get back on the next day. You've got an hour to eat. Obviously, the problem is, with it being unsupported is, if you're on a river that's ten miles wide or five miles wide and you go in-... you ain't coming out. If you're near the side and you go in, hypothermia kicks in, it will take them two days to come and rescue you. Too late. If you happen to pitch your tent, near a bunch of grizzly bears, it's game over. So there's fatalities every year," the guy said.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:26

       How many people do that?

    4. ACAshley Cain1:13:28

       I don't know.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:30

       How many people enter the race, you don't know?

    6. ACAshley Cain1:13:32

       I d- I don't know. Literally, do you wanna know how my life is? I literally got a call, um, off, you know, one of my friends, and she said that she's got a PT who's ex-military who's into kayaking, and he wants to go big this year and he wants to complete the Yukon 1000. "He hasn't got a partner for the race. And I mentioned you to him, and I said that, you know, you're driven, you're determined, you don't quit." And he said, "I'd like to speak to you." I picked up the phone. Didn't know him. Spoke to him. He said, "Do you wanna do this?" And hundreds of things flashed before me, before my answer, quick, like that. Done. I thought to myself, you know, "I don't know this guy from Adam. Don't know if we'll get on. That's a minor problem." Also thought that I could go out there and not come back. That's a huge possibility. But I remember when I lost my daughter, yeah? And this goes onto this point of making this decision. I'd spent, you know, six months in hospital. I hadn't worked. I hadn't earned no money. When my daughter passed, it wasn't like it was the first thing I wanted to do to go back to work and earn money. That being said, I was getting offered a lot of money. You know, I was getting offered 20,000 pound to post a picture on Instagram. I said, "No." I didn't wanna promote this table, 'cause I wouldn't have this table. I was thinking, "My life is that important for me going forward, and I'm a man on a mission that if I take money to promote this table now, how about when I actually have a message that I wanna say to the people? People ain't gonna be able to take me seriously." So I went into a bit of a financial crisis, you know? I refused to take money that wasn't good money. I believe that not every bit of money that crosses this palm is good money and I don't need to snatch and take it. You know? I was seven months into quitting alcohol. I was out running, cycling, and swimming ridiculous miles a day for nothing, just because I wanted to be outside and I wanted to be with my daughter. You know? I was doing these challenges. I was ra- I was working on the foundation. I was raising money for these kids. I was speaking to people that were suffering from their mental health. I was doing all of this just for free, even though I had nothing, you know? And I remember at that point I got down on my knees and I said to God, I was like, "I'm, I'm, I'm ready." You know? "I'm at the point now, uh, you know, I can't even really put, uh, I can't put a roof over my head, you know? I can't put a roof over my head, you know? I'm struggling to, to put food on the table to eat, you know? I, I, I, I've, I, I've, I've gave up this money which isn't good money. I've sacrificed my time for this foundation to raise money, to raise awareness. I've gave up drinking. I don't go out. Please, please, I'm ready." And that's when the chances started coming. So when I was on the official Zoom meeting to, to, you know, pitch myself to get this race and the race organizer said, like, you know, "Are you ready to d- to go?" And he told me there's gonna be fatalities every year. I thought, "If I don't say yes, then what is that saying to my daughter during that talk in a eulogy? What is that saying to God when I got down on my knees with open hands? But most importantly, what is that saying to myself when I'm brushing my teeth and I'm looking at the man that's looking back in the mirror before I go to bed?" So I said, "Let's fucking go. Bring it on." Because, you know, when else is my daughter gonna ge- get to go from Canada to the Arctic Circle to Alaska? Eh? When am I gonna get that chance again? And I believe that, you know, if we go and we come back, boy, I'm on a whole different level. I've raised awareness. I've raised funds. I put my money where my mouth i- well, was it? I put my money where my mouth is. Um, and if I don't, she obviously needs me back, and that's good enough for me.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:18:14

       What's the message that you want people

12. 1:18:16 – 1:22:53

    Ashley’s Overarching Message

    1. CWChris Williamson1:18:16

       to take away beyond your love for your daughter, beyond your relationship with that and that grief?

    2. ACAshley Cain1:18:26

       (sighs) God, there, there are so many messages within it. Number one, you know, I would always say to people, you know, "In this world..." If you ask... now here's what I say. If, if you ask a, a healthy man, you know, what he wants, you know, he'll talk about cars, he'll talk about houses, he'll, he'll talk about women, he'll talk about all of these things. And see, if you ask an, an unhealthy man or a sick man what he wants, he'll say one thing, and that's health. You know? One of my strongest messages to people is-Appreciate what you have right in front of you. You know, I'm living a life now where the only one thing that I want in this world has been snatched away from me. But having said that, when she was here in front of me in that hospital room, I loved and appreciated every single second, and I loved and appreciated that moment so much that that will fill my heart for the rest of my life. So I would always say to people, appreciate what you have right in front of you. I would also like to say that, you know, no matter what you are going through in life, how sad you are, how much pain you're feeling, the trauma that you're going through, you are strong enough to see another day. And it's not about being 100% every single day. It's about just showing up. That's what I do. No matter what the odds, no matter how I'm feeling, I show up every single day. And by showing up every single day and doing what I do, I believe it gives me more than happiness. I- I think happiness is rubbish. I don't think... there's no such thing as happiness. I believe we have happy moments, I believe we have happy memories, and I believe we have happy places. I don't believe there's any such thing as happiness because there's so many things in this world on a day-to-day basis that wanna go bang and take the wind out of your sails. But what I choose to do is rather than looking out for temporary forms of validation or things that I can get to make me happy, I've become competent in doing what's necessary. So the fact that no matter what is up against me, I believe that not only can I do it or have the courage to do it, I have the strength to see it through. And then afterwards, I build self-worth. I bui- build self-belief. I have fulfillment, which I believe far outweighs happiness. I think that most of people's mental health issues, or a lot of people's mental health issues, sorry, these days is because they have no self-worth. I believe they have no self-confidence, especially men. I believe that they're, they're looking for Saturday night, going out to pick up a drink and try and find a woman to make them feel happy rather than turning up every single day. One thing that changed about my life is I start every day the same. I wake up every single morning that drunken man who was ashamed of himself as his daughter watched down from heaven. And what I choose to do is earn my respect every single day. And for me, for other people that might look as being very intense. For me it works because I go to bed every single evening and I look in the mirror and I just think, "You know what? You did all right today."

    3. CWChris Williamson1:22:48

       What's a typical day look like for you?

13. 1:22:53 – 1:27:36

    A Typical Day for Ashley

    1. ACAshley Cain1:22:53

       A typical day. Okay. So sh- should I say yesterday? So yesterday I got up at 5:00 AM 'cause I had to travel back from another city. Um, I got back about 6:00, and then I didn't have time to have breakfast because my two running partners wanted to go out on a run. So I stopped off at a petrol station, got a flapjack, and we had a 20-mile run. Um, I finished the 20-mile run, and then I had to go and do my strength and conditioning session because I need to look after my body. So it's not lifting weights, it's just working on all those little shitty areas to stop you getting injuries. So I've done an hour S&C there. Um, then I did an hour of stretching and mobility because I needed to recover. Then I went back home and I did two, three hours of meetings in terms of the foundation, in terms of my new book that I have coming out, in terms of a new show that I have to go on. Then I did an hour on the kayakerg, and then I went and swam 1,000 meters, and then I got back and I carried on work. What time was I up until? I think I went to sleep probably about 12:00. Then I got up at 5:00 AM to travel, to get my session in before I traveled here today to do this. I, my, my day's blend into so many different projects. It's like I've got a c- a game for my... This is, this is how varied it could be. I've got, you know, a new TV show that's out at the minute exploring the different faces of grief. So there's a lot of work with that. Um, I've got a new show that's been out on BBC, then another show that I've got, uh, that, that I'm gonna be in very soon. I've got my book coming out. I've got about four or five hours a day of training that I need to do. I've got a game that's commemorating my daughter's life, and you know, that's gonna be her two-year anniversary on the 5th of May at CBS Arena where I used to be a pro footballer. There's just so many different things on a day-to-day basis that I feel like I speak to about, you know. I speak to about 30 to 50 people a day. I try and compile in my training, I try and compile in my recovery. And if I have time...... you know, I get a little bit of food in between that, and then, you know, I, I sleep truthfully four to five hours a night before I'm up the next day, out of bed and ready to go again. Um, like I say, for me, the sleep thing isn't, the sleep thing isn't, like, because I'm trying to, um ... setting my alarm, not getting up. That's what time I get up. In fact it, it was even earlier this morning, it was probably about 20 past 4:00. I just get up. It's not 'cause I want to. I'd love to be able to sleep more. I don't. Then when I'm up, I always tell my management, I say like, "If, if I haven't got anything in that hour, put me something in." You know? If it's Tuesday and you feel like Tuesday might be my day off, fill it up. I don't want the time. I hate the time. I never think about, "I'm gonna book a nice holiday." I never think about, you know, "I wanna go for food this weekend."

    2. CWChris Williamson1:26:21

       You've got a lovely trip coming your way up to the Arctic.

    3. ACAshley Cain1:26:23

       Say again?

    4. CWChris Williamson1:26:24

       You've got a lovely trip coming your way up to the Arctic.

    5. ACAshley Cain1:26:25

       That is holiday. Exactly that. And I think, you know, it's all just stages. I, I'm not ... I will say this, uh, you know, number one, I wouldn't claim to be, you know, a mental health expert. I wouldn't also claim to be the best marathon runner or ultra-marathon runner. I wouldn't say, "Oh, I've raised the most money for charity." You know? I don't try and pretend that I'm the toughest man in this world, or I don't try and make the most money. What I try and do is I try and do what I feel is right for me every single day. And I just speak honest, open, and transparent about that, and hope that, you know, me speaking and my openness can help as many people on their journeys as well.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:27:29

       You've mentioned that you're not dating at the moment.

    7. ACAshley Cain1:27:31

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:27:31

       That's not something that you're fussed with. Have you ever considered whether you'd have another child?

14. 1:27:36 – 1:31:10

    Thoughts on Future Children

    1. CWChris Williamson1:27:41

    2. ACAshley Cain1:27:44

       It's, um, it's a difficult one. Like I've said to you before about the dating thing, it's not, it's not like I'm gonna be naive and say, "I'm never gonna have another kid." I don't know. At the minute, I find the thought a bit hard for a few different reasons. I'm a very loving person. I've got a massive heart. You know? I have love and I have respect for every single person that I meet on a day-to-day basis. But if you're my family or you're my baby, my love is uncontainable. Now, for that reason, I think it would be hard for me to think about having another child at the minute. And the reason is, they say that, you know, you don't know how much you love something until it's gone or you don't know how much you're gonna miss something until it's gone. You know? Imagine that, but you're fearing you're gonna lose that something every second of every single day. I was like this with my daughter all day. I just loved her and wanted her, you know. I w- wanted to switch places. It felt like I knew her for 100 years, and the fact that I thought I was gonna lose her every single second multiplied my love by a million. So it's not I believe that I feel like I couldn't have another kid. I just feel at this current stage of time, it would be unfair for me to have another child knowing that I wouldn't be able to love it as much as I do Azaylia. That's the honest truth. I haven't quite got my head around that one yet. I like to be fair, you know. And it's like animals. I love animals, yeah? But I couldn't have an animal because I know that I couldn't give it the time that it requires. I would never just have an animal to have it as a pet. I, I love whatever is around me, you know. And for me, I just think it, it would be unfair on the child at the minute for me to have another child when I know that I couldn't possibly love it as much as I love my daughter who's in the sky.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:30:22

       Ash, I very much appreciate your openness, your honesty. The difference from the last time that we spoke to now is very stark. I don't wanna say that ... I don't know ... what you went through is something that would be wished on anyone, but it definitely seems like it's landed on if it was going to be on someone, you seem to have the capacity to have been able to deal with it. It would've been enough to have crushed anybody and almost including yourself. But coming out the other side, alchemy is turning something that's useless into gold, and that kind of seems what's happening there. I very much appreciate you today.

    4. ACAshley Cain1:31:07

       Thank you very much, mate.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:31:09

       If people want to keep up

15. 1:31:10 – 1:31:56

    Where to Find Ashley

    1. CWChris Williamson1:31:10

       to date with the stuff that you do, if they want to find out more about the foundations, where should they go?

    2. ACAshley Cain1:31:17

       So they can head to my Instagram, which is Mr. Ashley Cain, M-R-A-S-H-L-E-Y C-A-I-N, and then to keep with the foundation, it's The Azaylia Foundation, and Azaylia is spelt A-Z-A-Y-L-I-A.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:31:35

       Ash, I appreciate you. Thank you. (instrumental music plays) What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:31:56