How To Raise Your Profile, Manage Your Reputation and Get Noticed | Warren Cass

Chris Williamson 0:00 (wind blowing) Aloha from Waikiki. I am currently recording on a makeshift standing desk attached to the top of a fridge and a microwave on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. Now, there's an active volcano not very far away, and the world's loudest binmen outside as well. So if you hear some explosions, do not fret. It will just be the end of the world, or the bins being collected. (inhales sharply) Now, before I forget, the Modern Wisdom YouTube channel is live. Very happy to say that we've nearly hit one million watch minutes within the space of the first month. It's absolutely crazy. The response to the Love Island podcast has been insane. Shout out to the British press for both promoting and misrepresenting what I said. But all exposure's good exposure as far as I'm concerned. (laughs) The Love Island podcast is still not available on audio only, so if you want to check that out, you're gonna have to head to the YouTube channel. Please hit Subscribe, as it would make me very happy. Coming up soon, I have the long-awaited sequel to Jordan Wallis, Paul Warrior, and Tim Briggs from Reebok CrossFit Tyneside, We Dominate Nutrition and Warrior Programming. Plus, the world's only happyologist, positive psychology expert, Susanna Hallinan, will be dropping in to talk about happiness and her new book. But first, on to this week's guest. Warren Cass is an author, public speaker, businessman, entrepreneur, and a specialist in influence and personal brand development. Now, I've wanted to get him on the podcast for well over a year now. From before I even started, I knew that I wanted to get him on. I picked up his book, Influence, which will be linked in the show notes below, along with all of the partner companion stuff that he gives away for free on his website. (inhales sharply) I think, to one degree or another, everybody requires influence in their lives. They need to be able to control how their personal brand comes across, and they need to be able to communicate effectively. Now, this isn't just about being a go-getter, chasing after the next big job or whatever it might be. This could just be being a better partner, being a better parent, being a better whatever. You need to be able to communicate effectively. You need to be able to control how your personal brand is projected out into the world. What is the sort of example that you are setting? What are the sort of things that other people professionally, personally say about you when you're not around? (laughs) What is the kind of influence that you are having on your circles? Now, Warren takes us through a step-by-step personal brand and influence MOT. If you are someone who wants to improve their ability to communicate online or in person, their access to networks, their ability to influence others in a positive way, if you've always wanted to understand how neurolinguistic programming works, even if you've always wanted to know what people's eyes looking in different directions during a conversation means, (laughs) we go through it all. So, get your pen and paper out. Make sure that you're ready. Here we go. Warren Cass on influence. Mr. Warren Cass, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

Warren Cass 3:54 Thank you for having me, Chris. Great to be here.

Chris Williamson 3:57 How are you today?

Warren Cass 3:58 Bloody marvelous, you know. I've had a, a really, really busy month of- Got a couple of days in the office, which just, you know, catching up time. So yeah, really good. Thank you.

Chris Williamson 4:05 Fantastic. A little bit of time to reset.

Warren Cass 4:08 Yeah, you need it every now and then, don't you?

Chris Williamson 4:10 Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's been a, it's been a difficulty in getting ahold of you, but I think that's, that's a, a test- testament to, uh, how much you're in demand at the moment, speaking about the topics that you do.

Warren Cass 4:22 Yeah, it's very flattering, um, but, you know, obviously we're here to talk about influence today. And, and as somebody like yourself who, who builds a personal brand, you know, the bigger the brand gets, the more on-demand you get. And, uh, it's all good.

Chris Williamson 4:32 Yeah, it becomes a bit circular, doesn't it? So, you've, you've touched on the word of the day there. Can you, can you define what influence means to you?

Warren Cass 4:41 Yeah, in very, very simple terms ... It's a broad topic, but in very simple terms, for me, it's about effecting an outcome without having to force it. Without having to force it also means, of course, without having to manipulate.

Chris Williamson 4:53 Yeah.

Warren Cass 4:53 You know, we, we live in a world (laughs) where we're bombarded every single day with so many messages. And, uh, some of it is misinformation, and some of it's manipulation. Uh, but co- coming back to my definition of influence, influence is really when, uh, you can, uh, you can forward an idea or agenda without having to force it with people coming along because they want to, they've been inspired to. That's, that's how I like to define influence.

Chris Williamson 5:16 I understand. So, I, I picked up Influence, the book, around about a year ago, and was on a flight out to America. Wanted to get something that I could read on the way out, and it immediately, uh, stood out to me. Exactly as you said, we increasingly now, in the modern world, almost everybody, to one degree or another, is building a personal brand. You know, the advent of social media means that everyone treats their Instagram or Twitter account to varying degrees of professionality. Like, a traditional advertising medium. It's advertising for themselves. And whatever the goal is can change, but I do think that the, the hype, (laughs) to a degree, about someone's own life...... gets proliferated by them. And upon reading it, there was a few bits which the event managers who work for my company will hate hearing, uh, over, (laughs) over the airwaves as I won't shut up about it in the office sometimes-

Warren Cass 6:15 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 6:15 ... but serendipity is not a strategy for me. Just sits. It completely chopped at the knees so many of the, um, fortunate situations that you get into, and you can sometimes kid yourself have come about due to (sighs) some, uh, preparedness that you deep down know that you didn't do or some s- some connection which was done by pure chance. The serendipity is not a strategy can be, um, should be written on the wall at some points, I think. It, it reminds me that we need to be prepared, and that we, we need to cover all of the, the potential, um, avenues moving forward as we try to create a personal brand. So can you, can you tell us why you wrote the book?

Warren Cass 7:06 Yeah, I'll start by apologizing to your colleagues, though, if you're-

Chris Williamson 7:09 (laughs) .

Warren Cass 7:09 ... (laughs) if you're, if you're quoting me all the time.

Chris Williamson 7:11 Yeah, the Warren Cass rhetoric-

Warren Cass 7:12 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 7:12 ... gets pushed hard in the Voodoo Events office, I'm afraid.

Warren Cass 7:15 And do you know what? The, uh, serendipity has been really, really kind to me. Uh, and it has. I can't complain at all, but I've always had the best results when I've done things on purpose.

Chris Williamson 7:24 (laughs)

Warren Cass 7:25 Uh, d- on and with purpose, I might say, so, uh, yeah, I totally, I totally agree. Um, why did I write the book? Well, well, first of all, I've been speaking on the subject for, uh, uh, well over a decade, and, uh, I wrote the book initially because I had two publishers (laughs) come to me and say, "Would you write a book?" And, uh, and I thought, "Well, okay. I've always avoided this in the past," because I've got a, a, um, you know, a big listener to podcasts. I subscribe to yours, uh, amongst others, and, uh, a- and knowledge, you know, is, is a really important thing. I think every day is a school day, so it's important to continuously learn.

Chris Williamson 7:59 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 8:00 Um, but I do think about most business books is that they're typically written by academics who decide to, uh, give too many examples where one or two would have done, um, and I, I believe-

Chris Williamson 8:12 (coughs) .

Warren Cass 8:13 ... also most business books can be summarized in, you know, a f- a few pages rather than, uh, necessarily needing to take ev- everything on. And I was really trying to think hard about, "What am I gonna add value to this topic in a book format?" Bearing in mind, there are some classic books on this subject out there. And, uh, I mean, for example, you know, uh, in our pre-chat you were talking about Dale Carnegie and How to Win Friends and Influence People, probably the oldest and biggest selling book on that topic.

Chris Williamson 8:41 Yeah.

Warren Cass 8:41 But it was written in 19- in the 1930s.

Chris Williamson 8:44 (laughs)

Warren Cass 8:45 Um, you know, you've got The Psychology of Persuasion by Cialdini, a brilliant book written in the 1980s, and, uh, he has done some work since, there, but there was a gap, (smacks lips) uh, you know, and what's happened is we've had this explosion of population, uh, of technology, uh, since then, and it's fundamentally changed everything that we do. Um, it's changed the way we communicate, it's the changed way we access products and services, it's the changed way we consume, and so the, the world has changed, and we... You know, for me, it was, uh, it wa- it was the thing I'd been evangelizing on stage about, and I thought-

Chris Williamson 9:20 (laughs) .

Warren Cass 9:20 ... "You know what? This is the angle I'm gonna take. This is, this is the way I'm gonna write the book." So that's what happened -

Chris Williamson 9:24 To bring, bring those, bring those things up to speed, so to speak.

Warren Cass 9:27 Um, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 9:28 I think-

Warren Cass 9:28 Take all those proved to tried and tested concepts, but actually, uh, make them relatable to a whole new generation of people.

Chris Williamson 9:36 A- a- applicable to the, the changed world as well. I think definitely when you, if you read David Allen's Getting Things Done, it, it almost becomes laborious to convert. So he talks about, like, using filofaxes and pagers and, you know, like, in trays and out trays and stuff like that, and you think that I've actually got to do a fair bit of the work. This self-help book requires me to do quite a lot of self-help to get the book to work for me, because it's so behind the times with what it would be. It would be an app now. It would be a, it would be a, a integration like Evernote or something like that. It would be productivity tools and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, you, you, you're very right. I think as the rate of change speeds up in the world, the body of knowledge around core concepts needs to keep up.

Warren Cass 10:29 Hundred percent, or at least its application. Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 10:33 I agree. So can you talk about why influence is important? Uh, do- does everybody have it?

Warren Cass 10:40 Uh, kn- knowingly or unknowingly, uh, yeah, the vast majority of us have it, um, and should be aware of it if we, if we want things to happen in our lives, you know? That's, uh, the s- the simple fact of it. Um, I often start my talks with, with, uh, you know, defining the fact that we're all influenced every single day from the moment we get up in the morning. Our- our partner's expression or m- the mood they're in-

Chris Williamson 11:04 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 11:04 ... can dictate our day.

Chris Williamson 11:06 (laughs) Yeah.

Warren Cass 11:06 The, the microexpression of somebody on your commute to work, whether it's a Tube train or car, um, can dictate your mood for the day. It's been absolutely proven that, um, because we're such empathetic creatures, if we witness an act of kindness for the two ac- hours that follow, we are more kind, you know? So we, we are sponges, and we absorb, and that's just the human interactions. When you start factoring marketing messaging and, uh, media, um, you've got a, a whole different layer of influence there too.

Chris Williamson 11:37 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 11:37 So the, the bit I maintain is that, um, that if you understand how you're received when you talk, when you communicate, if you understand how that comes across to others, you've got a better chance of, uh, being more effective in that communication. If you understand how you, you receive information and how other people, uh, influence you, you've got a, a better chance of, of having better responses to that influence, you know? So ultimately, if you're an ambitious person, you want to evolve your career, or, or even if you just want to improve your relationship with your wife, husband, children, colleagues, friends-... understanding influence is, uh, is in your best interests.

Chris Williamson 12:20 So it's, it's giving you some perspective of what you're receiving and what you're sending, to a degree?

Warren Cass 12:29 Yeah. And, uh, you know, all communication really should start with an awareness of, of, of how it's being said, what, what's being said, 'cause we communicate on so many different levels, don't we? So, uh, just in, just increasing your awareness will make you more effective straightaway.

Chris Williamson 12:43 Where do you tend to start with people if you were to do a, um, an influence overhaul? If you were to take me in for an influence MOT, where would you, (laughs) uh, where would you start?

Warren Cass 12:56 Well, (laughs) havin- having seen your profile, Chris, you're not doing too bad, my friend.

Chris Williamson 13:01 (laughs) Okay.

Warren Cass 13:01 (laughs) Uh, yeah, you know, it, it really starts with finding out objectives. Uh, I wouldn't, um, I wouldn't dream to think that everybody wants the same thing, so, uh, you know, the very first thing I'd do is, is try and understand their what and their why, you know?

Chris Williamson 13:16 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 13:16 What is it they wanna do, what is it they wanna be known for, and why is that important to them? Why is, why is that, uh, something that's gonna inspire and motivate others if that's, if that's the, uh, the way they're gonna go about it? So that would be absolutely the first step, is just to understand people's objectives. Without that, you can't put any g- any real strategy into place. Uh, don't get me- don't get-

Chris Williamson 13:35 If you, if you don't have a target to aim at, you'll always miss, right?

Warren Cass 13:38 Th- that, that's the, that's the point. Uh, if you're, if, if you're coming at this from, uh, with a, with an outcome in mind, but of course some people just want to be nicer, more effective in their communication. There might not be an objective.

Chris Williamson 13:49 Yeah.

Warren Cass 13:49 You could be retired and want to communicate better.

Chris Williamson 13:51 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 13:52 That's fine. Um, but if, if the, the premise you gave me was an overhaul, so coming in and maybe working with somebody, I'd be first looking to understand what it is they're, uh, they're looking to do. And the reason of course for that is that, um, once you understand your marketplace, who you're looking to get out there and, um, you then need to identify your audience, where they play, the type of information they consume, uh, the type of people that are already influencing them, so who are the potential collaborators and, uh, people you might be able to take advantage of some of the principles I talk about in the book, like credibility by association.

Chris Williamson 14:25 Yes.

Warren Cass 14:25 So there's, there's a whole load of, load of things that you might wanna do, um, once you're clear on why you wanna do it.

Chris Williamson 14:32 So we've established people's why-

Warren Cass 14:33 Yep.

Chris Williamson 14:33 We've started to understand their objectives and what they want to do moving forward. I think that is a, that is a massive stumbling block, especially one of the biggest roots to procrastination is perfectionism. It sounds, it sounds quite strange and quite circular, but it, it genuinely is that waiting until you have everything in place or everything feels perfect is a, a really good excuse for procrastinating on getting sta- (laughs) getting started on a project. Um-

Warren Cass 15:02 And of course, that can have a negative impact on influence as well, and I'm talking from personal experience here. Um, my, my reason for procrastination, uh, is very, very aligned with what you've just said. It's, uh, it's mainly because I like to do the job myself, because I know I, I'll do it the way I want it done.

Chris Williamson 15:19 And you'll get it done right, yeah. If you want a job doing right.

Warren Cass 15:22 Yeah. Of course, but then if ... What happens is work and life and everything else gets in the way, and, you know, suddenly overwhelmed with jobs, and you don't get round to it. And of course having somebody else do it 80% to the standard that you would have done it is better than not getting done at all.

Chris Williamson 15:35 I agree with that.

Warren Cass 15:35 So there's, you know, there's a (laughs) whole lot of things around that, but-

Chris Williamson 15:37 Agreed, yeah. You need to.

Warren Cass 15:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:38 I think, I think especially in business, doubling down on your strengths. I said this in, uh, episode eight with Michael Cazau, who's the CEO of Brute Strength Training, and he said himself, his root to becoming one of the biggest CrossFit programming operations in the world was by doubling down on his strengths and employing people who could fill in where he's, uh, less capable or less passionate. And I think, uh, I think be- being a jack of all trades is, is really no use to anybody in, in a business context. So you've got me in. We've, we've had a look at, at my objectives. We've got around the fact that I'm a perfectionist and that I just need to, I need to get moving. Where do you go next?

Warren Cass 16:21 So from an influence strategy point of view, uh, the first thing I would do is sit down, and based on what you've told me, identify, identify your audience. And, uh, a lot, a lot of people forget this, but, you know, I mean, that, that's, um, that's a, a bit more complex than, uh, than we think, because, you know, we're, we're living in times where there are five different generations in the workplace, all with a, uh ... This ne- And that's never, never been the case before. So we've got five different generations in the workplace, all with different unique experiences. And, uh, so I- identifying your, your audience is important, because we're, we're, uh, more multicultural than we've ever been before. We're generationally divided, um, and we've never been before. And that, that affects all sorts of things, like attitudes. I mean, uh, let me give you some examples of why identifying your audience properly is important.

Chris Williamson 17:12 Definitely.

Warren Cass 17:12 And I'm gonna make one point at the end of it, but, uh, but I'll ... Uh, I'm sure, like me, you are tired of, uh, the term millennial.

Chris Williamson 17:21 (laughs) Yeah.

Warren Cass 17:22 Right? I think everybody's sick to death of the term mille- millennial. But, but I do think it's important for older generations to understand what makes millennials tick. I think it's equally important for millennials to try and understand why we have, uh, we ... And I'm, I'm not a millennial. Uh, why we have a different perspective too.

Chris Williamson 17:39 Yeah.

Warren Cass 17:39 And this, this comes down to, um, our, our experiences. So a couple of, couple of quick stats to throw out at you. Um, the average age for marriage, mortgage, and kids in the '70s was 23 years old. And today that's more like 36 years old.

Chris Williamson 17:58 Wow.

Warren Cass 17:58 Um, so there's a load of changes. So what you can-

Chris Williamson 18:00 So what, what you're saying is that I've actually still got time, and that my business partner can stop applying pressure to me?

Warren Cass 18:05 Of course. Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 18:05 (laughs)

Warren Cass 18:05 That's exactly what I'm saying. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:09 (laughs)

Warren Cass 18:09 And, and some of those reasons, by the way, will be financial, and you know... and because, uh, actually, uh, we have more ex- we- we're, we're more experiential.... now. Um, so we have, uh, the world is our lobster Rodney, you know, we can go anywhere. We can, we can do a, uh, anything we want to do, so we tend to, uh, put off some of the, uh, other bigger decisions because while we're young, we wanna have those experiences. That's one. Um, student debt is another. You know, there's a load of reasons why those things happen. Um, so that's, that's just marriage, mortgage, and kids. Um, beyond that, uh, work. So in the US only 7% of millennials work for Fortune 500 companies. Um, and that's mainly because, uh, millennials who are of, of an age ready to work, um, want to be inspired by what they do. So they either start their own businesses where they're connected to their why, or they go and work for smaller organizations where they're working directly with the entrepreneur behind the business so they can feel like they're making a difference. So that's im- that's important to a generation. Um, and then, you know, you look into things like, uh, politics, and we, we live in an age of great misinformation-

Chris Williamson 19:25 (laughs)

Warren Cass 19:25 ... where (laughs) , where, you know, we're d- we're as, as divided as we've ever been, uh, when... And, you know, there's a whole load of reasons for that, and we can go into that if you want to or we can avoid it like the plague ƒ

Chris Williamson 19:35 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm happy for us to open up whatever, whatever Pandora's box we go into today is absolutely fine, Warren.

Warren Cass 19:41 No problem. So, y- you know, the, the thing about, um, misin- an age of misinformation is it makes actually all of us that little bit more skeptical. Um, so, you know, when we're told things, our fin- first instincts now should be to not believe it until we've actually seen evidence or facts or something to support it. Um, you know, social media absolutely dominates, uh, what we do. It's democratized, you know, conversations really, and it's, and it's made, uh, every, every opinion have its microphone, you know? Um, so we have to be careful of, of what we take in and believe. And consumerism has changed. You know, again, millennials... Uh, and in fact, just coming to this point, you know, the, the term millennial is quite often accepted anybody after 1980, so it's 38 years and younger at the time of recording this.

Chris Williamson 20:29 Yeah.

Warren Cass 20:30 And, uh, the other thing that's happened since 1980 is the world population has doubled. So we're now over seven billion people on the planet, and that's doubled in the last 38 years, which actually should scare the shit out of anybody listening.

Chris Williamson 20:46 (laughs)

Warren Cass 20:46 It really, really should. But that means half the world population are in this-

Chris Williamson 20:51 Are milen- millennials, yeah.

Warren Cass 20:52 Are millennials, yeah. And so it's now the most, uh, dominant consumer group online. You know, from a consumering- uh, consumerism point of view, uh, less brand loyal. You know, if a, a brand they were using every single day disappears tomorrow, that's fine. They'll move on to the next one, but it'd be largely based on things like social proof. So your reputation matters. Um, you know, it's why we, we, uh, we read the reviews on Google, on Amazon, on TripAdvisor, um, profile, um, testimonials on LinkedIn, et cetera. You know, we're interested in this stuff because we want social proof. We wanna make the best decision based on what our peers recommend. It's, you know, it's, it's the way it works. So we've got all of that going on, and then we've got, um, diversity with multiculturalism. You know, even, even faith is changing. You know, in the UK, we're becoming more and more atheist. In some European countries, it's almost totally atheist.

Chris Williamson 21:44 Yeah.

Warren Cass 21:44 And e- even in the US now, I think I read somewhere earlier this year that, um, y- it's less than 50% now that class themself as white Christian in the US, which is, you know, it was, it, it was, it was never that, uh (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 21:57 No.

Warren Cass 21:57 ... it was always such a dominant demographic.

Chris Williamson 21:59 Absolutely.

Warren Cass 22:00 So the big point I kind of wanna make, uh, with this little, uh, talk around millennials and diversity is that, um, if you're talking to multiple demographics, if you're marketing to multiple demographics, but only using one tone of voice with your communication, the harsh reality is you're not speaking to everyone. So if we want to be able to reach different audiences and talk to different demographics, we have to understand, personalize, and, you know, and produce content and add value in, in the way that's meaningful to the people you're trying to talk to. And so many big brands are still talking with one tone of voice. I find it utterly surprising. You know, we, technology enables us to... Personally, I've got one, one, um, uh, friend who I, who shall rem- remain nameless, but-

Chris Williamson 22:52 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 22:53 ... um, but he has a, a business operating from London, and he works in a, a particular niche, but he identified within his database, uh, recently that, uh, the database had grown quite large and that there were something like 400 Johns, for, for argument's sake, on there now.

Chris Williamson 23:09 Oh, wow.

Warren Cass 23:09 So he, he took a whiteboard and he wrote, on, on, on video, he wrote, "Hi, John." And then he said, "Hi, John, just wanted to tell you about..." and then went on to speak, uh, to that particular audience. Now every single (laughs) John who received that believed that was written just for them-

Chris Williamson 23:24 (laughs)

Warren Cass 23:25 ... uh, and tried to figure out (laughs) ... Uh, but they watched the video and maybe bought the product.

Chris Williamson 23:28 Yeah.

Warren Cass 23:29 Uh, he then moved on to the next biggest name on his list, which was, you know, whatever it was-

Chris Williamson 23:33 Yeah.

Warren Cass 23:33 ... and then went and produced something for them. So he... What he identified was, you know, by just re-recording that one video a number of times, he still had quite a, quite a big reach, but a much bigger, um, a much bigger conversion rate ƒ

Chris Williamson 23:48 The sense of affin- the sense of affinity was, was, uh, through the roof, right?

Warren Cass 23:53 Absolutely. It was personalized.

Chris Williamson 23:55 So you need to gear the message to the market, I think.

Warren Cass 23:59 So, so understand your audience is the, is (person sneezes) you're, you're asking the step, we're in this consultative stage. We've come in, we've found out your what and your why. Understand your audience or your audiences. It could be plural. Uh, it could be, you know, more than one niche you're looking to operate in. So-

Chris Williamson 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 24:13 ... understanding that, uh, is the first thing. And then absolutely understanding where they play.

Chris Williamson 24:19 So does that mean in terms of, uh, media?

Warren Cass 24:24 ... media consumption-

Chris Williamson 24:26 Yeah.

Warren Cass 24:26 ... events they might attend, um, uh, uh, maga-

Chris Williamson 24:29 Avenues, avenues of access, I suppose.

Warren Cass 24:31 Absolute, yeah. Point- um, points to, to connect.

Chris Williamson 24:35 Yep. Okay. So...

Warren Cass 24:37 So that would be- that would be the next step. The next step after that, I would then be looking at all of the people who already have influence over that audience, and I'd be s- very simply making friends, maybe asking them to guest post on a blog, maybe interviewing them for a podcast. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:53 Yeah.

Warren Cass 24:53 You know, r- reaching out to, to, uh, other influencers. First of all, it's flattering. They're gonna get some profile. It's a win-win there. Um, they're gonna let their audience listen to or read your content, so you get the credibility by association thing that comes in then. Wha- what you're doing is you're slowly building your audience and building your influence, uh, towards that audience. Because the, the key, the only real thing I think, uh, nowadays, um, is of long-term strategy when it comes to, um, building influence, is to actually genuinely try and add value-

Chris Williamson 25:26 I couldn't agree more.

Warren Cass 25:27 ... to the audience you serve. Um, and that could be from great content, but you really genuinely have to try and add value to the audience you serve.

Chris Williamson 25:34 Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I was... I've got a, uh, an upcoming livestream (laughs) that I'm gonna do on Instagram, maybe tomorrow when I'm driving. I'm going down to Shropshire tomorrow, and, um, it's talking about people who have a massive platform online and are choosing to use it for, uh, reasons which add absolutely zero value as far as I can see. And, uh, the analogy that I'm going to draw is that in the same way as a strong person needs to protect the weak because it's a duty, they have a particular skill or a particular, um, uh, they have a particular attribute which is a travesty to not use when it's called upon, if you have a platform and if you are looked up to and if you are held in a position of credibility, which is increasingly being bestowed on people who probably don't deserve it, and you're not using it to add value and to make people's lives better, as far as I'm concerned, it's a, it's a bit of a catastrophe and it's a real wasted resource, and it shows just how little you do care for the audience that you've got. And that's not for me to say, like, I'm... you know, eh, with my s- small following, uh, bestowing words of wisdom or something like that. But I am, I'm trying to do my best to speak for something of value, something that the people that follow me and that follow my friends and, you know, introduce them to interesting people like yourself that will enrich their lives and, and, and help them make good lives better and bad lives less, less bad. Um, you know, tha- that, that seems great, but, yeah, the, the prospect of having a platform and not using it, to me, is sacrilege, I think.

Warren Cass 27:19 So I'm often asked what, um... how do I define a good speaker? And let's just assume, uh, the given is that they know what they're talking about, uh, and, you know-

Chris Williamson 27:29 (laughs) Which is probably not a very good given sometimes. (laughs)

Warren Cass 27:31 (laughs) No, well, l- well, let's just for the, for the point I'm gonna make-

Chris Williamson 27:34 Yeah, yeah.

Warren Cass 27:34 ... um, make it a given. So there, there are two things which in my experience, uh, the best speakers I've ever met have, and the first thing is an ego. And I know that's gonna sound negative, um, and it, and it is to a certain extent. But, uh, if you're the type of person, um... and I mean, Chris, you know, I've seen your, your Instagram account. You clearly care about what you're doing, um, but there's clearly an ego in there, uh, uh, as well, right?

Chris Williamson 27:59 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 28:00 Um, so having an ego isn't a bad thing as long as our desire to add value and serve our audience is higher and bigger than our ego. So-

Chris Williamson 28:10 It's a very interesting point.

Warren Cass 28:12 So the best speakers I know stand up, get a real thrill from standing up on stage. Absolutely, they do. But their desire to effect change in others is bigger than their ego.

Chris Williamson 28:22 Mm.

Warren Cass 28:24 And think of s- think of some world politicians right now, mention no names.

Chris Williamson 28:28 Yeah.

Warren Cass 28:28 Um, uh, wouldn't it be amazing if they had, if they leveraged the platform that's come from, you know, you know, their notoriety and everything that they do, because their desire to effect change in others and add value was bigger than their ego? What, what a difference that would make.

Chris Williamson 28:42 Well, the, the, the point that you've missed there is that you're presuming that they know what they're talking about.

Warren Cass 28:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:47 (laughs)

Warren Cass 28:48 That's a very good point. Touche, my friend.

Chris Williamson 28:52 (laughs) So yes, we've talked about the, uh, avenues of access to the audience that we've defined. We've looked at our why. Um, where are we going to next?

Warren Cass 29:05 So the n- the next stage I would go to, we've, we've added value, we're collaborating with other influencers, so we're starting to really build our reach.

Chris Williamson 29:13 Oh, the, uh... Sorry to, to interject.

Warren Cass 29:14 Yep.

Chris Williamson 29:14 The credibility by association thing which you touched on earlier on, I really enjoyed in the book. I think, um, you're totally correct. When you see someone who you follow... How many times do you go out and listen to a Joe Rogan podcast? Matthew Walker, who wrote Why We Sleep, I'd seen Why We Sleep advertised on Amazon, it had been pinged to me off my Kindle or my email, but I listened to him on Joe Rogan for three hours. Obviously, h- in and of himself, he was very charming and added a lot of value, but also the platform that Joe Rogan gave him allowed me to be exposed to him, lended more credence, more credibility to what he was saying, and I b- I bought the book while I was listening to him. So...

Warren Cass 29:58 So there's a whole, there's a whole lot of kinda cliches on we're known by the company we keep, or we are the, the kind of net product of the five people we hang around most with, you know. There's all, all of those ones which people know, and-

Chris Williamson 30:08 Do they ring, do they ring true for you?

Warren Cass 30:10 Uh, they, uh, uh, n- uh, not... If I'm gonna be really strict, um, w- yes, we are known by the company we keep, absolutely, positively and negatively. Um, but the whole five, five people that we hang around the most with, I think is nonsense, uh, o- of course, you know, I, they...... uh, networks aren't restricted to five people. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:28 Yeah.

Warren Cass 30:28 You know? You know, we know lots and lots and lots of people. And in different contexts, uh, we'll hang around with different people. You know, if I'm, if I'm, uh ... Like the comedy course I, I went on to the other week, uh, you know, there's a, a WhatsApp group now of a, a whole load of budding comedians having fun. That's got nothing to do with my work, it's got very little to do with my home life or my friends, actually. Um, so we, we live in, uh, pockets of interests, and, uh, and we build communities within our pockets of interest. And hopefully, um, you know, we're multi-layered human beings with lots of interests, and-

Chris Williamson 30:59 You try and take the best from everyone, right?

Warren Cass 31:01 Yeah. Do you know what? Um, e- even ... A love- a lovely thing, I mean, I'm a mid-forties guy, right? So I'm, I'm, uh, 45 years old. I'm 46 this year. And, uh, you know, speaking is one of the things I'm passionate about. This, this, uh, last month, I managed to, um, speak up for a client in Glasgow. And what was really lovely is that, uh, uh, my, my dirty little secret is for the last 14 years, I've been an Xbox, uh, fanatic.

Chris Williamson 31:26 (laughs)

Warren Cass 31:26 I managed to avoid it while I was building a technology business in the i- in the '90s, and, uh, my wife and kids bought me an Xbox for my birthday, which was, uh, a really fatal thing to do.

Chris Williamson 31:39 (laughs)

Warren Cass 31:39 But Call of Duty being my game of choice.

Chris Williamson 31:41 Okay.

Warren Cass 31:41 Um, of course, what happens, you start to, um-

Chris Williamson 31:44 (coughs)

Warren Cass 31:44 ... make friends and build a clan. And, uh, and that, that happened. Anyway, I got up to Glasgow for, for this speaking event, and, uh, really brilliantly, I managed to meet up with some of my clan and go out for a few beers-

Chris Williamson 31:56 No way.

Warren Cass 31:56 ... and have, have a bit of fun. Now, some of these people I've known really well for over 12 years, but have never met face-to-face.

Chris Williamson 32:03 AFK, as it's known. Away from keyboard.

Warren Cass 32:06 Absolutely, yeah. Um, so, you know, th- uh, as I say, you know, it's not, it's n- It doesn't really matter how we connect with others, it just matters that we do connect with others. And, uh, and I think-

Chris Williamson 32:16 I think, I think there's definitely, um ... There's a lot to be said about ... We did a, uh, recently did a podcast on confidence, and one of the things that I tried to take away from that was talking about being truthful and being vulnerable to a degree. And I think that making a, making a genuine connection or committing to making a genuine connection, even if it's only mostly going to be one way, the majority of social media is one, is y- you speaking and then some responses. There's more of you speaking than there are responses for most, most people online. But for you to add value, personally, I think that there has to be a level of vulnerability because presuming that you genuinely care about what it is that you're talking about, you, you have to be very honest and very open and very truthful with it. That doesn't mean that you have to be completely transparent, but it does mean that you have to, um, allow people to see a, a very true, true side of you. And I think that can probably be quite daunting for a lot of people who are concerned that their audience might not like what they hear.

Warren Cass 33:17 Well, it's also daunting 'cause it's not the way we're being socially conditioned right now. If you think about it, um, social media is people's highlight showreel. It's not, it's not real life. Um, but actually, when you think about the biggest connections you've ever had with somebody, it's where you've actually been vulnerable, um, or, you know, utterly honest and human. Uh, that's, that's where we connect. And-

Chris Williamson 33:37 It's an incredibly endearing trait.

Warren Cass 33:39 Well, you know, even as a speaker, one of the biggest weapons I'll use on stage and, uh, is self-deprecation.

Chris Williamson 33:45 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 33:45 And I'm quite happy to take the mick out of myself. It really, it really doesn't, um, doesn't bother me at all. Uh, but it, but it does relax an audience because suddenly they're not thinking, "We're listening to some know-it-all on stage."

Chris Williamson 33:56 Yeah.

Warren Cass 33:56 It's a, it's a human being just sharing, sharing their story. And that's, um, that's the way it should be. But c-

Chris Williamson 34:01 Very British characteristic as well.

Warren Cass 34:03 Com- coming back to the credibility by association there, 'cause you mentioned one of the stories in the book. And, and, and actually just so this, this lands with your, your, um, your audience, there's a cou- couple of quick stories I'll tell. One from the book and one who's, o- one that isn't. But, um, for me, it comes back to this term about u- understanding the power that somebody who already has profile either endorsing you or taking you under their wing or being seen with you, the power that can have. So, the story I talk about in the book is, um, a, a personal development speaker, author, uh, and a- actually, to a certain extent, mentor to me when I was, uh, when I was younger, is a guy called Jack Black. And-

Chris Williamson 34:41 Not the Jack, not the Jack Black.

Warren Cass 34:42 Not, not the Hollywood Jack Black.

Chris Williamson 34:44 (laughs)

Warren Cass 34:44 Uh, no. Glaswegian Jack Black, who built a brand called Mindestore. Uh, so it's, it's, um, it, it's all about, kind of, personality and, uh, uh, sorry, um, personal development. H- he was a social worker in the '80s, and he was fascinated by personal development himself, so he started developing his own content. And when he was ready to launch his own business, he saw the concept of credibility by association. He may not have called it that, but he, he borrowed £10,000, and he put Sir John Harvey Jones on stage next to him in front of 2,000 Glaswegian business owners at a conference or an event he was running, 'cause he understood that Sir John Harvey Jones would be the draw, but then the moment he's on stage and he's on stage with him, he gets the credibility that comes with that. And overnight, he was the business guru that works with Sir John Harvey Jones-

Chris Williamson 35:31 (laughs)

Warren Cass 35:32 ... and as a result, built a really good, powerful business.

Chris Williamson 35:34 Yeah.

Warren Cass 35:35 Um, you may have heard the name Judy Nake, who, um-

Chris Williamson 35:38 No.

Warren Cass 35:39 ... who, who sold her business for seventy- 75 million. Uh, it was the ... She didn't even develop the product, but she had the distribution rights to the St. Tropez, um, tanning-

Chris Williamson 35:48 Okay. Okay.

Warren Cass 35:49 ... tanning stuff.

Chris Williamson 35:49 Heard of that.

Warren Cass 35:50 And yeah, so for her, uh, I mean, she's quite an inspirational businesswoman anyway 'cause of the way she dealt with people. But, uh, she attributes, uh, a lot of her success to having somebody like Victoria Beckham walking out of the store with a clear c- plastic bag and her product in the bag. And, uh, uh, when, when I heard her story, it was within the months that followed she did about two million in sales just because of that one media appearance.

Chris Williamson 36:19 Yeah.

Warren Cass 36:19 And, you know, so that, that whole credibility by association thing can be really, really powerful, but it can be used ... Uh, it doesn't ... You know, we're talking about big things here, like a 75 million, um, sale. How does that a- how does that apply to a florist, uh, working in a town center, or how ... Or, you know, or somebody just want ... Has a aspiration for a local business and doesn't necessarily wanna take it any bigger? For, for them, it's really about identifying the influencers locally. If you want more people to know you locally-... try and find the people who have sway, who, who make recommendations day in, day out, who are the networkers, who are the people that you can build relationships with over a coffee just locally, 'cause they're approachable. Um, you know, these are, these are simple principles or concepts, and they can be applied at whatever level or, um, or whatever level of aspiration you have for your business.

Chris Williamson 37:08 I understand. I think what we're obviously skirting around here to a degree is the, um, the very overused term now of influencers, mostly used for social media. Um, you know, the, the number of product endorsements that you get now is leveraging this exact credibility by association, isn't it? You look at for most of the, the listeners, boohoo.com and ASOS and Topman and even Jacamo and people like that are trying to rebrand themselves by attaching themselves to people like Freddie Flintoff and ... Do you know what I mean? Like they're, they are this credibility by association has become a major industry in and of itself.

Warren Cass 37:48 It has, and, uh, uh, but a- and, you know, it's n- it's not necessarily new. I know influencer marketing is a, is a more recent term, but, you know, I remember over a decade ago when, uh, BlackBerry were, uh, one of the dominant brands in, in mobile phones, and, uh, they had a, a ... they called it their ambassador scheme, but it was just influencer marketing. They identified people who were prominent in loads of different niches. Uh, I w- I was, I was one of them in the small business sector, 'cause at the time I was running a, a, a large business network. Um, and, you know, it meant every month I got the n- the next new shiny phone to, as l- you know, as long as I shared it, wrote about it-

Chris Williamson 38:24 Yeah.

Warren Cass 38:24 ... et cetera, et cetera. Um, uh, so I was one of the ambassadors amongst other people. Um, but it, y- you know, that was, that for me was when I started to really notice that, uh, you know, this was a, a principle that could be leveraged by anybody, really.

Chris Williamson 38:38 So by trying to get some credibility by association here, how, how can we access these people? Obviously by virtue of them being in a, a position of existing influence, or potentially, uh, either a different or a, a higher level of access to network than we have. What are the, what are the, the effective ways that someone can go about enticing somebody in? Uh, in terms of contact, or if they're meeting them face-to-face, what can they do to, um, make them f- have more confidence in the, in the pitch, so to speak, to become associated?

Warren Cass 39:14 Yeah, so this is a good question. It's one I'm often asked, uh, because of course nobody wants to go reach out to somebody who's got sway and influence and immediately be asking for something. Uh, that's the sure- surest fire way to, uh, to turn them off and get them to ignore everything that you do. So, um, you know, most people, uh, want to understand, uh, what makes you tick, your values, your intentions, before they're gonna, uh, invest any time into you. Um, so that's the first thing. Um, I used to sell sponsorship. So, uh, you know, with our, with our, t- our business network brand, we, uh, managed to attract really nice sponsorship figures from brands like Santander, um, BlackBerry, O2, uh, Microsoft, et cetera. And you don't attract those brands unless, um, unless there's something in it for them. (laughs) And so you always lead-

Chris Williamson 40:01 That's true.

Warren Cass 40:01 ... with what's in it for them. And I think this is the, this is the principle as well when you're approaching people within your network. It's seeking to add value first. Um, so, you know, for example, if I'd already started to build an audience and I, and I wanted to, uh, attract the attention of a, of an influencer, I'd probably invite them to be interviewed. They're probably gonna want to at some level share their message. Um, they're gonna be flattered by the invitation. Uh, it's no different from you inviting me onto this podcast, Chris.

Chris Williamson 40:29 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 40:29 You know, it's nice to, to, um, reach a different audience, you know. That, that works with ... The, the whole principle of credibility by association's at play here, by the way, you know, 'cause, uh, I'm sure you'll enjoy it when I share the podcast with m- my audience, because th- that, uh, broadens yours. Um, and you've already got a, an audience which might be a different demographic than I normally talk to, so, you know, we both win from it. It's we're both getting the credibility by association from the conversation, as long as, of course, we're both not coming across as morons.

Chris Williamson 40:58 (laughs)

Warren Cass 40:59 Which, uh, I-

Chris Williamson 41:00 Let's hope.

Warren Cass 41:00 ... I choose to believe we're not. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:03 Yeah.

Warren Cass 41:03 So, you know, a- approaching somebody, I would, I would seek to add value first. I would, I would av- I avoid asking for anything. I would seek to add value, um ... Uh, uh, I would avoid asking for anything that's not in their interests, if you know what I mean.

Chris Williamson 41:16 Yeah. I know.

Warren Cass 41:17 That's a good starting point. So, um, and then of course, you know, once you've, once you've started that, there's t- two things I would add to this journey of influence, uh, that we started on, 'cause we've got ... Assume you know your what and why, understand who your audience is, identify the influencers in the marketplace, add value and collaborate. Um, and I, I would then say there's only really two more s- steps to this, uh, from an influence strategy point of view. Of course, we can go into lots more detail on any of those things-

Chris Williamson 41:43 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 41:43 ... but as a, as a broad strategy, one is then to continue to build your reach, and preferably on your own pr- platform. So we rely so heavily on, um, uh, the platforms that are readily available to us like YouTube and Facebook and what have you. Uh, but actually, you know, it's quite turbulent. They are changing, and because some of the, um, uh, personal brands out there have become a little bit more con- uh, controversial, they're being deplatformed. So where the-

Chris Williamson 42:12 Milo, Milo Yiannopoulos is now off, off Twitter and-

Warren Cass 42:15 Uh, yeah, well, he's been off Twitter for some time, but, um-

Chris Williamson 42:18 Yeah.

Warren Cass 42:18 ... but, but actually, yeah, he was deplatformed not just from, from Twitter, but things like Breitbart too, you know.

Chris Williamson 42:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Warren Cass 42:24 Um, so, you know, it's, it, the, the crowds can have that impact, so it's important for you to own your own platform and ... or to, to own your reach, own your relationship with your audience, rather than rely on somebody else would be my advice, and people-

Chris Williamson 42:39 Interesting, I'm getting interesting interjection here. I don't know whether you follow much of what Tim Ferriss does?

Warren Cass 42:45 Yes.

Chris Williamson 42:45 Um, but his ... He is, he is number one-... um, advocate of email lists that he pushes everybody, he maximizes, and he sings this, the, the exact same, uh, hymn sheet that you are about the algorithm on Facebook can change, and there's nothing that you can do about it. The reach on YouTube, so on and so forth, everything is mediated by this third party, and I think that's one of the reasons why he's such a big advocate of getting, maximizing email, uh, subscription and email sign-up, because it is a direct, um, vo- uh, line of communication from him to his audience.

Warren Cass 43:24 100%. And actually, it's not just restricted to things like that. I read somewhere recently that Google's about to change their algorithms yet again, so it's not... You know, you could have done as much as you wanted to with SEO in the past, but it's not necessarily gonna help you moving forward. Um, you know, it's gonna be weighted in different ways. So it's, uh, you know, the- these are things that you constantly have to keep on top of, but owning your relationship with your audience is massively important.

Chris Williamson 43:48 How else can someone ensure that they own the relationship with their audience, or own their platform, as you put it?

Warren Cass 43:53 Um, uh, so specifically, uh, t- to answer that question, I would, I, I would be, wherever possible, taking them away from the places that you met them in the first place-

Chris Williamson 44:03 (laughs)

Warren Cass 44:04 ... and building that subscription. So Tim, what Tim does is he'll, he'll go and play on social media. Uh, he has k- lots of referral schemes in place. He relies on his audience to help him build his audience too. Um, but he will, he will give you something of value, but in, in order to get that something of value, you're subscribing, so it could be a, uh, uh, ten top tips on how to whatever.

Chris Williamson 44:24 Yeah.

Warren Cass 44:24 But you part, you part with your email address. And then he makes it very clear, "I'm gonna send you something of value, uh, on a regular basis. If you, if you don't want that thing of value, then, uh, you know, adios, no problem. But, uh, but if you do, then know why you're doing this. It's not me spamming. I'm sending you something of value."

Chris Williamson 44:40 Yeah.

Warren Cass 44:40 So, you know, it's being really clear with intentions. Um, and, you know, the point is that all of the hard work should have been done before that stage. You know, the people you're talking to should understand your values. They should understand the value you bring to them. And therefore, you know, when they subscribe, um, it's, it, it's (laughs) a consensual act, you know?

Chris Williamson 45:00 They've got a feeling of certainty and safety that they're, that they're buying into something that they value.

Warren Cass 45:07 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 45:09 Okay, so-

Warren Cass 45:10 And then th- the, then the last step I would take beyond buil- you know, continuing to build your reach and own your platform would be to, uh, you know, productize. Take advantage of what you've built, productize, then rinse and repeat. You know, all of those steps, you can continuously go through them, and, you know, you should be, on a regular basis, as the world changes around you, revisiting your what and your why, um, and how your audience is changing, and therefore, you know, where are they playing now? What's the change in technology or social media that they've moved onto?

Chris Williamson 45:38 Mm.

Warren Cass 45:39 Um, you know, who are the new influencers? Who can you give a helping hand to who might be bringing a new audience with them? Um, add value, collaborate, continue to build your reach, productize, rinse and repeat.

Chris Williamson 45:51 I think what I like about that particular layout is that the productize comes at the end, and the operating a freemium model or over-delivering on the front end, as it's known, uh, in the online marketing world, is, um, a commonly, a commonly used approach now. And as you say, exactly, exactly right with Tim Ferriss, what you get, you get an awful lot of value for a very little, um, investment, i.e. something that's free, y- giving your email across. But the content that you get is very, very highly valued, and that the productizing or the, um, turning that into a financial or "business" plan almost becomes, uh, uh, emerges organically out of all of the steps that you've built upon, that you've got this level of credibility, that you have good access to market, that you understand the audience that you're speaking to.

Warren Cass 46:50 Yeah. A- and so, whilst productize is the end in that simple model, a- actually the reality is you do all of those things all at the same time.

Chris Williamson 46:58 (laughs) Yeah.

Warren Cass 46:58 Um, (laughs) you know, it's, it's nice and easy to sort of spell it out in steps, but of course, if you've got a product and service to sell, you're gonna sell it to the audience that you've got at the time you start really. Um-

Chris Williamson 47:08 Yeah.

Warren Cass 47:08 ... you, you know, it... But you're right. What it, you know, the considerations up until the point of productize and selling something is making sure that you've got something that's truly of value, and it's a consensual act, you know, that your audience want it. Um, but, uh, that's, it's a very simple philosophy on, on the whole thing. I mean, as I say, the world has changed. You know, influence has changed massively. Uh, what most people, uh, perceive to be the change might just be societal, but actually we've had changes in, in how technology's impacted business. You know, it's a, a nice little stat that over 40% of the companies at the top of the Fortune 500 in the year 2000 were no longer there in the year 2010.

Chris Williamson 47:48 Is that true? Oh my God.

Warren Cass 47:48 Uh, that's true. And, and, you know, even on top of that, you've got brands that have come from nowhere which, you know, we've all heard of and know of, like the Ubers and the Airbnbs-

Chris Williamson 47:57 Mm.

Warren Cass 47:57 ... who, uh, have come from nowhere, worth absolute fortunes, um, but don't necessarily (laughs) own the product or service. They own the access to the product or service, so they, they have the influence over the audience. You know, U- Uber's the biggest fleet of cars in the world. They don't own a car.

Chris Williamson 48:13 Yeah.

Warren Cass 48:13 Uh, Airbnb is the biggest portfolio of property in the world. They don't own a property. They have-

Chris Williamson 48:17 I think, I think Alibaba's the same, but for retail.

Warren Cass 48:20 Yeah, sure. Sure, and you know, and yeah, Amazon the same for, for retail as well, you know.

Chris Williamson 48:26 Yeah.

Warren Cass 48:26 They, it's, it's the people who own the relationship with the customer, with the audience. And of course, they're their own platforms. (laughs) They've built their own platforms.

Chris Williamson 48:33 They own their own platform, yeah.

Warren Cass 48:34 And they own the relationship, so, you know, that's absolutely, um, telling. Um, and, you know, there's... The opposite is true. I mean, think, think of brands that, uh, that should've done it. I mean, yell.com, or Yellow Pages-... Yellow, Yellow.com are actually doing some really quite good stuff now around small business marketing, websites, SEO, and all of that type of thing. They are doing some good things. But, but actually, considering they started in 1956-

Chris Williamson 49:00 (laughs)

Warren Cass 49:01 ... um, in Brighton-

Chris Williamson 49:01 A little bit ahead of everyone else.

Warren Cass 49:03 Well, in Brighton, um, they started the, with the Yellow Pages, they suddenly grew, they eventually grew onto four continents, and they dominated search. And the internet came along and there was nobody saying, "How is this internet thing going to affect our business?" They should have been Google.

Chris Williamson 49:20 But they weren't. Blockbuster, the same.

Warren Cass 49:23 Blockbuster, um very similar. Kodak, very similar. Kodak actually invented the digital camera, the thing that we all walk around with in our pockets and just call a phone, but it's an, an Oracle multipurpose (laughs) device. They invented the digital camera and they even brought futurists into their business in the '80s and said, "Uh, what's the future of digital f- well, what's the future of photography?" And of course they said, "The future's digital." And they said, "That's not what we, what we wanted to hear. You're fired."

Chris Williamson 49:47 I didn't want that, yeah.

Warren Cass 49:48 (laughs) Uh, you know, so there, there was a load of people that are really close-minded to the change that's happening all around them, but it's, uh, but it's, it's, it's not just technology that changes. In fact, one of the examples I use on stage, I'll give you it now, there's a, a barometer for how long it takes a product or service to reach 50 million users. Okay, so for the telephone, it was 75 years. For the radio, it was 38 years. For the TV, it was 13 years. The iPod did it in four, the internet did it in three, Facebook did it in two, the iPhone did it in three months. Now if you think about it-

Chris Williamson 50:26 (laughs)

Warren Cass 50:26 ... every single one of those is an innovation in communication, it's an innovation in the way that we communicate and influence. It's a different broadcast medium. And just to evidence, the three months it took the iPhone, it took Angry Birds 30 days.

Chris Williamson 50:40 Oh. (laughs)

Warren Cass 50:41 You know, so ... That's, that's the, uh, that's the kind of, uh, you know, the speed of change as it happens.

Chris Williamson 50:48 Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I think, uh, it's terrifying, isn't it? A- and I suppose that it almost becomes each of those, um, levels of communication and (clears throat) how open global communication is now permits this to catalyze itself further. It'll only mean that this gets further expedited and that these, these, um, timeframes are gonna become even more shortened, because you can find out about something so much more quickly than you ever could before.

Warren Cass 51:18 Or, or not. You can find out the f- the falsehood, you know? (laughs) That's the ... Heh, yeah, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 51:21 The disinformation comes on the other side.

Warren Cass 51:23 Absolutely, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:24 S- so I wanted to talk about, um, personal brands and how people-

Warren Cass 51:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:28 ... how people display themselves both, both online and in person. I know you, in the book, you touch on, um, ways to dress, colors and how they elicit different, uh, emotions and different sort of ties and, and, and outfits, neuro-linguistic programming, body language. Um, let's start with how you can make a good impression face to face. I know a lot of people when we talk about influence may be thinking about what happens online, and that may be a, a high volume of the traffic that goes backwards and forwards. But certainly for me, when I meet, um, when I meet with other business people and people of influence who are good face to face, they leave a very marked impression on me in a different way to someone who's good online does. It seems to be a much, a much rarer skillset.

Warren Cass 52:20 It's, it's a much rarer skillset, but it's gonna be the one which I believe will be utterly in demand in the next couple of decades.

Chris Williamson 52:28 Why?

Warren Cass 52:28 Uh, the, the, the line I use on stage is in an age of automation, artificial intelligence, and robotization, stay human.

Chris Williamson 52:35 Ah. (laughs) Yes. Very nice.

Warren Cass 52:36 So, you know, the, the point which I want people to understand is that, you know, we are becoming more disconnected from each other, uh, uh, you know, counterintuitively, 'cause we're more connected, you know, via technology, but we're actually more disconnected on a hu- human level, because it's, as we said earlier on, it's highlight reels that are being shared, it's, it's, uh, superficial stories, it's summaries rather than in- in-depth conversations, you know. People are projecting them- their best selves rather than their, their vulnerable selves, if you know what I mean. So they're not doing the human thing. And so I, I believe one of the core competencies, one of the core skills that you can, you can go and develop, no matter what industry you're in and what level you want to achieve within that industry, if you want to be more effective with all of your relationships, then you need to become a student of people. And that includes yourself. Understand who you are and then be authentic to that. But under- understand other people and adapt how you communicate with them to their preferences. So there's a number of tools for that which we can un- unpack if you want to.

Chris Williamson 53:39 Yes, please.

Warren Cass 53:39 But, uh, but that's the, um, that's, I, I think it's gonna be the most important skill. And, and even on a, a big brand kind of corporate level, it's gonna be about demonstrating values and telling stories, because that's how we're gonna be connecting with people more and more.

Chris Williamson 53:55 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 53:56 So, uh, to unpack the original bit, where communication starts, I'll, I'll tell you a couple of things. First of all, let's talk about what the communication model is, how the process of communication. So we have, um ... Uh, very, very, very easily, we have external stimula that comes in. Now it can be in a number of different formats. And we'll receive that and process it through our kind of visual, auditory, kinesthetic, uh, even, even through, um, you know, things like taste, you know. We'll, we'll interpret the world around us, uh, in a number of different ways. But let's say mainly through our eyes, ears, and, you know, what we, what we sense and what we feel.

Chris Williamson 54:35 Yeah.

Warren Cass 54:37 Um, and then what happens is we apply our normal filters. So our filters will generalize, distort, and delete. You know, they will, they will map that information against our own values, our social conditioning, uh, the beliefs that we hold, um, and the, the memories that we have. Um, you know, we are a product of our environment, it's that whole kind of conversation around nature and nurture. I think it's, uh...... in most cases, nurture will win every single time.

Chris Williamson 55:04 Hm.

Warren Cass 55:05 Um, so we are a product of our environment. But anyway, all of those things, um, they basically constitute our map of reality. This was once, um, uh, highlighted to me, uh, quite recently actually, where somebody had come in to a, a friend of mine who was, who was coaching, and, uh, she was coaching this particular client, and they said, um, "I wanna be a, a better communicator, a better speaker." And she said, "Okay, well, we need to work on your confidence." And she says, "Oh, no, I don't want to work on my confidence."

Chris Williamson 55:33 (laughs)

Warren Cass 55:33 She said, said, "Well, why don't you want to work on your confidence?" "Because I don't want to come across as arrogant." So in her map of reality, the word confidence means arrogant.

Chris Williamson 55:41 Ah.

Warren Cass 55:41 Um, and the assumption that we always make is that everybody thinks the same way that we do, or, or uses language in the same way that we do, or has interpreted the world around them in the same way that we have. And it's a kind of fatal mistake. So the communication model is, it comes in, external stimuli, we put it through our filters, um, map it against, you know, our map of reality. This affects our physical state, and therefore our physiology, and therefore it impacts the way we behave. That's the simple process of communication, okay?

Chris Williamson 56:09 Okay.

Warren Cass 56:09 The next thing is really around, um, then how, how we internally process information. So if you can understand somebody's preference to things like visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or even, uh, you know, those that are real logic thinkers, this is touching on some of the things that NLP will, will teach. Um, you know, if you're, if you're dealing with somebody who has a strong visual preference, and you can identify that, you can use language like, uh, "Do you see what I mean?" Or, "Can you see the, can you see the big picture?" You know, you'd use visual language, and you'd probably be a little bit more effective with them. If somebody's got an auditory preference with how they process information, it was, "Do you hear what I'm saying?" Um, if it's feelings, you know, um, you know, "I, I get the feeling that..." And you can use those language. You know, "How does that feel to you," for example. So the key is how you identify people's representational systems.

Chris Williamson 57:01 I was gonna say, how do you-

Warren Cass 57:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:02 ... how do you determine that?

Warren Cass 57:03 There's a number of tools. Um, and that, and before I tell you, before I give you the answer to that, 'cause it's, um, you know, there, it, there's a, there's another level of complexity, and I don't know if you've ever done psychometrics, Chris.

Chris Williamson 57:14 I, I haven't.

Warren Cass 57:15 Have you ever done a DISC profile, something like that?

Chris Williamson 57:16 I've done a Big Five...

Warren Cass 57:18 Okay.

Chris Williamson 57:18 ... which is a pers- personality assessment. Um, I'm not sure if that counts.

Warren Cass 57:22 You know, I en- I encourage everybody to go off and, and, uh, do these things. Because there's a, there's a, always gonna be a slight improvement in self-awareness that comes from it.

Chris Williamson 57:33 What would you recommend?

Warren Cass 57:35 Um, so DISC is the, is the, the one that's, uh, best known, but, you know, there's Myers-Briggs, there's Belbin. They're all good for different contexts. Uh, DISC is the one that's really known, and, and quite often used by other tools too. They adapt, they take the standard core of it when they apply different learnings. You know, the thing about these things is they'll put you into a, into a box for the sake of, um, uh, overview analytics, but actually, we all have adaptive behaviors too, and-

Chris Williamson 58:00 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 58:00 ... and we all s- you know, float in between different... For example, I'm a, I'm a high I in DISC, which is, uh, energetic, uh, big picture, enthusiastic, uh, outgoing, all of those things. But, um, but actually, if I come across somebody who's, uh, very dominant, and, and task focused, and strong-willed, and forceful, I'll adapt my behavior to, uh, to ultra dominate them, if you know what I mean. 'Cause I don't (laughs) I don't like being dominated. So-

Chris Williamson 58:26 Ah, yes.

Warren Cass 58:27 ... my adaptive behavior will, will be to, uh, to, to match theirs. Um, but it will all, it will always be... Our, our adaptive behaviors are also, also always very true to our values. They, they're anchored to our values. Um, but again, it's a, it's a thing to understand. So for example, in the sales context, if, if I was going into a sales meeting, and I'm, I meet somebody like me, we're gonna have a, a bit of a laugh. We're gonna have banter, we're gonna be telling stories. You know, it's talking big, big picture. It's gonna be enthusiastic and, and positive. Um, if I go in and speak to somebody who's highly analytical, uh, with a strong preference for detail, um, I immediately will adapt the way I'm communicating, and I'll get to the point first. I'll do the numbers, and, you know. Otherwise, if I'm doing my usual thing, they'll just be thinking, "Just get on with it."

Chris Williamson 59:14 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Warren Cass 59:14 "What, what for numbers? Give me the details." Uh, they'll, they'll be distracted by that. So you have to adapt the way that you speak to others, to, to match their communication preferences.

Chris Williamson 59:24 Okay, so how are we...

Warren Cass 59:26 You have to adapt-

Chris Williamson 59:26 How are we gonna determine who these people are?

Warren Cass 59:28 So, so I'm gonna give you two, two, um, two obvious methods. Um, well, one obvious method, and one which isn't so obvious. There's something called eye access and cues, which I find quite useful. I use it quite a lot in my, uh, just day-to-day rapport with other people. And this is the, uh, have you seen, um, the TV series Lie To Me with Tim Roth?

Chris Williamson 59:46 Yes.

Warren Cass 59:47 Yep. So, of course, he uses a whole load of tools, which are, uh, psychological tools, understanding thought processes, body language, et cetera. Eye access and tools is one of them. And basically, if you're speaking to somebody, and they... Where, where their eyes go gives you a bit of an indication into their, their communication preference. So imagine you're looking at somebody, and their eyes go top right-hand corner. Uh, so they're top left.

Chris Williamson 1:00:11 Yep.

Warren Cass 1:00:11 Top right to you. That's visual recall. So they're, they're accessing memories. If it goes to the other side, it's visual construct. That's imagination. Often, um, misused by police forces who think people are constructing alibis if they spend a lot of time there.

Chris Williamson 1:00:24 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:00:25 Remember, it's not an exact science. It's just a, a good way of, uh, understanding a preference. So, uh, if they're, if they stay dead even but go to the left, uh, uh, so they go to the right as facing, that's auditory recall. So remembering what somebody said. Uh, to the left, it's auditory construct, imagining what somebody might say. Um, if it, if it goes to the bottom right-hand car- side, that's internal dialogue. That's probably somebody very strong, logical thinker who's actually asking themselves the question, and per- and trying to figure out what their answer is. If it's the opposite side, bottom left, that's kinesthetic, touch, taste, smell, et cetera. So they're somebody very connected to their feelings. And typically, somebody who's a strong k- kinesthetic thinker will be...... uh, slower in their communication, uh, 'cause they're feeling it.

Chris Williamson 1:01:09 Ah.

Warren Cass 1:01:09 Uh, so, so that's, that's one example. Um, but, do you know the really simple way of understanding, uh, somebody's preference with all of these things is to listen. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:22 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:01:22 Honestly, it's not more complex than that. Asking really good questions and listening. You see, um, on top of communication and representational systems, the thing which I really go off about is context. Everybody has a context. Everybody has, uh, a set of circumstances that are really unique to them, and the only way we get to understand people's communication preferences, personality types, and their context, is to ask them really good questions. They did an, uh, a study where they took a chap, who was flying transatlantically from New York to the UK. And, uh, this could be just an urban myth, by the way, but I've been telling the story because I heard it years ago and thought it was, I thought it was cool. But this person was flying transatlantically from New York to the UK, seven hours on the flight, and they gave him the task that you've got to keep the guy next to you talking for the whole seven hours-

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 (laughs) Oh my God.

Warren Cass 1:02:12 ... without re- without revealing a single piece of information about yourself.

Chris Williamson 1:02:17 Wow.

Warren Cass 1:02:18 So, when they landed, they interviewed the guy, the other passenger, and they said, "How was your flight?" "It was amazing. It was really good."

Chris Williamson 1:02:26 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:02:26 "What about the guy you were sat talking to?" "Oh, what a fella. Really cool guy." "What was his name?" Couldn't tell you. Didn't have a Scooby-Doo. Hadn't given them any information at all. He'd just shown such, such genuine interest that this person had been made to feel like a million dollars. So, um, you have two byproducts of asking good questions and being interested in people. One is you get to learn their personality preferences, representational systems, um, and, uh, context. The second is, they really like you because you've shown interest in them. They feel special. And so it has, it's a double-edged sword. It works really, really well. You know, in a networking context, I meet people who are nervous about networking all the time, and, you know, networking can be daunting, and there's no two ways around it. But actually, if you just get good at asking people questions and showing genuine interest in people... And it's no different from dating, Chris, is it? You know?

Chris Williamson 1:03:21 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 1:03:21 If I, if I knew these tools when I was, um, 16, 17 years old (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:25 You'd have had a, a much different teenage, teenage years.

Warren Cass 1:03:28 Yeah. Just show interest in people.

Chris Williamson 1:03:29 Yeah.

Warren Cass 1:03:29 You know, make them feel special by showing genuine interest. It's the key to all things, and it's the-

Chris Williamson 1:03:33 I think you, you're very right. Everyone, everyone knows or everyone's got that friend who just won't shut up about what they've got going on, and no one really wants to be around them or they tolerate them to varying degrees. But yeah, when I think about the people who I have the most connection with, it's the ones who ask questions, who ask me how I'm doing or how my day's gone or follow up something. They don't just ask a question to be polite. They take a genuine interest and then they ask again and then they ask again.

Warren Cass 1:04:03 That's why I'll, I'll quote Buddha. "If your mouth is open, you're not learning."

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 Very fair point. Very fair point. So we've had a look at how we can interpret what, uh, category someone else, um, would fall into so that they can, you can gear your use of language towards that. What are the things that you can do yourself after asking questions in terms of body language, in terms of dress, in terms of eye, uh, eye contact, word usage? What are the things that you can do to give

Chris Williamson 1:04:39 the, the best impression of yourself face-to-face?

Warren Cass 1:04:42 So, um, so we, we talk, talk about getting into rapport with somebody, and there's, um, there's a, a number of different ways of getting into rapport, uh, but let's start with the physiology. So r- rapport is that kind of ac-, that, that time of connection with somebody where, you know, you're starting to build trust. Um, so from a physiology point of view, uh, simple things like, um, blinking and breathing at the same pace. On a subconscious level, you know, people-

Chris Williamson 1:05:10 Is that easy to, is that easy to do?

Warren Cass 1:05:11 Um, well, do you know the, the key with all of these things is if you, if you force it, uh, and you're obvious with it, it feels like manipulation and it will have the opposite effect. It will, it will turn somebody off. But if-

Chris Williamson 1:05:21 Yeah. Breaks down, breaks down the fourth wall.

Warren Cass 1:05:23 Yeah. But if you, if you, if you come in, um, to a, a situation with somebody and you genuinely just want to try and be synchronized, um, that's, that's, that's a different thing altogether. In fact, the biggest way of, you know, I'm gonna tell you a few things about rapport now, but actually the biggest way of, of, um, building rapport with somebody is when you're asking all of those great questions we just talked about, genuinely listen to their answer. You know, if you're really listening to somebody, you'll naturally fall into rapport with them anyway. Um, in fact, I was at, um, uh, a, an exhibition in London called The Best You. Big shout out to Bernardo Moya who, who runs that event-

Chris Williamson 1:05:58 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:05:58 ... in London every, every year. Um, and I was talking, I had a, I was speaking there, but I had a stand as well, so I was on the stand talking to people, and I was talking to this woman who's really, really skeptical a- about anything to do with things like rapport. And after about 10 minutes, she had kind of relaxed, she was showing more interest, and I just highlighted to her that, um, we were stood in exactly the same pose, which was my hand was on my midsection kind of holding the buckle of my belt.

Chris Williamson 1:06:24 Mm.

Warren Cass 1:06:24 And she'd, she'd come into that same pose, and she said, "Well, you've just put your hands there. I've been stood this way." (laughs) She was real skeptical.

Chris Williamson 1:06:30 Yeah.

Warren Cass 1:06:31 I said, "Actually, I've been stood like this for an hour. My belt broke an hour ago."

Chris Williamson 1:06:34 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:06:35 "I've been holding, (laughs) I've been holding my trousers up. Um, you've, you've fallen into rapport with me." And, you know, it, it does happen. It's because on a subconscious level, we do actually want to connect with other people. So the, the whole blinking and breathing thing is, uh, is a, a, a nice gentle way of doing it. Um, the expressions on our faces, you know, um, uh, being in control of our own expressions, having a smile on our face, you know, all of, all of the, all of those things is, is easy to do, yet people don't do it. Uh, but it's gotta be an authentic smile as well. And so two quick things on this. I was once in an audience, uh, speaking to an audience, and a guy in the audience had this grimace on his face the whole way through my talk, and as a speaker, I'm, I try and make eye contact with everybody.

Chris Williamson 1:07:17 Yeah.

Warren Cass 1:07:18 ... and, uh, I immediately thought, "God, this guy hates what I'm saying."

Chris Williamson 1:07:21 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:07:22 (laughs) And at the end of the talk, you know, his facial expression hadn't changed. At the end of the talk, he came up to me and he said, "That was one of the best presentations I've ever heard." (laughs) I thought, "You have forgotten to tell your face, my friend." Um-

Chris Williamson 1:07:34 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:07:34 ... uh, he con- co- he utterly confused me with that response. Uh, and, uh, you know, we're in control of our expressions, so if you want to make friends with people and build rapport, then of course, you know, just relax into it. Um, one of the people who didn't do this authentically though was, um, a previous, uh, PM, Gordon Brown. So Gordon Brown, at one of the elections, uh, was basically advised by somebody within his team to go and practice his smile, and before the cameras were turned up at one of the BBC election debates in Bristol, he stood at the lectern for about 15 minutes practicing his smile, which just didn't look natural at all. So, this is where you've got to get the balance right with who you authentically are.

Chris Williamson 1:08:17 Yeah.

Warren Cass 1:08:18 Um, but anyway, moving on. Then you've got things like, uh, the non-verbal, our gestures. Um, so, you know, our reptilian brains, if you approach somebody with your hands behind your back, their immediate subconscious thought is, "What are you hiding? What weapon are you gonna pull out and- and-"

Chris Williamson 1:08:32 Do this. Yeah.

Warren Cass 1:08:32 "... cockley off the head with." Exactly. So open body language. Um, positive body language, you know. Um, uh, but then being mindful about what different gestures mean i- mean in different countries. A- a quick funny, a friend of mine, Steve Clark, uh, was speaking in Tehran, and in Tehran, uh, he said one of the things, Steve's lo- puts his thumbs up all the time. You know, he's, he, "Is that all right?" "Yep, yep," as a speaker.

Chris Williamson 1:08:56 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 1:08:56 And, uh, he'd made a point and then put his thumbs up. Now, in, in Iran, if you put your, your thumb up at somebody, you're flipping the bird, you're doing the equivalent of the bird.

Chris Williamson 1:09:06 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:09:06 So he had 400 people in an audience-

Chris Williamson 1:09:07 Just done that to an entire auditorium.

Warren Cass 1:09:10 Well, 400 people in an audience, uh, who he'd just flipped, um, you know, consistently. He carried on doing it-

Chris Williamson 1:09:15 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:09:15 ... and their whole facial expressions changed. And he was saved by his translator who said, "He doesn't know what he's just done," in their ears (laughs) , and then they started laughing, and then he was rescued. But, you know, just be mindful, but open body language, show your hands, and I'm often asked actually, in an age of, um, video conference calls and Skype calls where people aren't traveling as much but still wanting to connect-

Chris Williamson 1:09:36 Mm.

Warren Cass 1:09:36 ... how can you do the same thing? Uh, so, you know, s- the same thing, um, applies. If you're gonna take the i- whe- where I talk about image, um, in the book, it's not just about brand, it's not just about profiles and pictures or the way that you're dressed. It's also the way you set the room you're speaking in. What's the impression? The reason I asked you for this particular thing, is it an audio or is it a video? 'Cause if it was video, I'd have done it somewhere else.

Chris Williamson 1:09:58 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:09:59 Um, you know, 'cause I'd have been mindful of the scene that we, we, we set as well. Um, so, uh, a- and the thing about a, a, a Skype call is you can still show your hands. You can still make eye contact by looking directly into the camera. The moment you start getting distracted and reading emails and not giving your attention to the person you're talking to, then, uh, you know, you're, you're gonna lose some of that ability to influence.

Chris Williamson 1:10:21 It's interesting that the, the principles of face-to-face communication occur (clears throat) -

Warren Cass 1:10:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:10:25 ... even when the other face is coming through a screen.

Warren Cass 1:10:28 A- absolutely. Absolutely. So I always minimize the picture of the other person and put it right up by the camera, so A, I, I'm, I'm watching their face, but, uh, uh, you know, my eyes are looking into their eyes. Um, so-

Chris Williamson 1:10:39 That's a really good, that's a really good little tip, isn't it?

Warren Cass 1:10:43 Again, think it's important. You know, we've got, we've got to, if we're gonna use, adapt the way that we, we behave and communicate to technology, then we still have to use it and apply the old principles. That's the point, point of the book, really. Um, so the non-verbal includes posture. You'll have heard people doing power poses and p- closed body language, arms cl- folded, et cetera. You know, uh, but don't read too much into these things all the time. You know, unlike you, Chris, I've seen, I've seen your pictures. I know you're a, a, a, a mind/body/soul fitness fanatic.

Chris Williamson 1:11:12 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:11:12 I, I, I'm a, I'm a s- overweight, mid-forties guy, so sometimes I-

Chris Williamson 1:11:16 Good on Xbox though.

Warren Cass 1:11:17 (laughs) Good on Xbox. But sometimes I fold my arms because it's comfortable. I've got a little belly I can rest my arms on, you know. So it's, it's different horses for different courses. Um, you may have even seen recently where, uh, a load of the Tory MPs have been stood in power poses with their leg- legs far too far apart. They look like aging Power Rangers.

Chris Williamson 1:11:36 (laughs) No.

Warren Cass 1:11:36 You know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:36 I haven't seen this.

Warren Cass 1:11:37 Yeah. So, you know, again, to be avoided, and you know, eye contact, common sense, little, uh, and often. Um, you know, if you intensely stare into somebody's eyes constantly, you're gonna freak them out. So, use it when you're being sincere. In fact, for me, when I'm talking to somebody, I look into their eyes. When I'm listening to somebody, I watch their mouth. Um, so-

Chris Williamson 1:11:57 Is that good, is that a, a fairly good rule of thumb to, to use?

Warren Cass 1:12:01 It's just, it's just the way I do it. Uh, and it, and by, uh, you know, I, I know that if there's, certainly if there's background noise and things, if I'm reading some- watching somebody's mouth, I'm really taking in what they're saying. I'm concentrated on the words. Um, and I'm, and I'm receiving the words in more than one way. But if I'm talking to them, I'm looking into their eyes and, and, um, showing I'm not hiding behind anything. The moment you start looking away when you're actually talking, um, you know, that, that could, uh, breed, um, a lack of trust.

Chris Williamson 1:12:27 I do find it sometimes very difficult. I work, I work quite hard on, um, on maintaining eye contact, uh, especially having read, having read the book. But, uh, the, uh, hitting that Goldilocks zone of not too much to look like you want a fight, but enough to show that you're engaged. Uh, i- i- it, there's still a question mark, I guess, that hangs over, uh, with regards to that sometimes.

Warren Cass 1:12:50 Well, well, well the e- the easy thing is, um, you know, if you're in control of all the other assets you have, i. e., you're smiling, um, very rare do people look for a fight with a smile on the face.

Chris Williamson 1:13:01 True.

Warren Cass 1:13:01 You know. Um, so it's, it's just combining, combining the lot. But, you know, uh, uh, enough for them to know that you're actually, uh, involved in that conversation with them and not distracted about what's going on over their shoulders is, is the thing. Uh, and then, you know, uh, from non-verbal, I'd come onto voice. So with, with voice, there's a whole load of things that we can do. Uh, our pacing, our volume, the language that we use, the tone that we use, the-... different intonations that we use. So, um, you know, if I'm, if I go and meet somebody, for example, particularly for the first time, and they're all frantic and stressed, I might match that intensity initially. But then I'll slow myself down and slow them down with me, so by the time we've finished, they're nice and relaxed and we're in rapport and we're having a, a conversation and everybody's been calmed down. But if I go in and start trying to be too calm initially, I might not get into rapport with them as quickly because I'm, you know, subconsciously I'm not just like them. Equally, if I'm stressed and manic 'cause I've, I'm late for a meeting and I come in and somebody's all calm and, calm and relaxed, you know, the, the first thing I'm doing is giving myself a sanity check and-

Chris Williamson 1:14:04 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 1:14:05 ... by taking a, taking a breath and slowing down my communication.

Chris Williamson 1:14:08 Yeah.

Warren Cass 1:14:08 Um, so that, you know, little things like that are nice and easy. And language is easy. You know, language is around, um, the words that we use. Compliments are free, but just make them genuine 'cause if you just start saying nice things for the sake of it, it comes across as insincere. So, you know, if you're in a job that's in somebody's, like, you, you find yourself in people's homes or if you go into somebody's office and they've got a picture of their, their family, um, ask questions, just say, "That's a lovely family you've got there," or, "That's a lovely home you have," or whatever the compliment is. Just mean it.

Chris Williamson 1:14:37 Mm-hmm.

Warren Cass 1:14:38 T- so little things like that help. Um, but language can get more complex. Um, so with NLP, uh, language patterns are an, an important part of it and embedded commands are an important part of that. A very skilled politician who used to do that, in my opinion, was Tony Blair. Um, regardless of whether we agree with his politics, he was very skilled at using language. He would, he would say something like, um, "You, like me, believe it's important for us to have a robust economy." Well, the embedded command there is, "you like me."

Chris Williamson 1:15:11 (laughs)

Warren Cass 1:15:11 You know, whatever he said, whatever he said beyond that, he was basically saying, "You, like me, believe," um, and the, "you like me" is, was, uh, with enough pause, and f- for the command to actually sink in on a subconscious level.

Chris Williamson 1:15:25 I'd never, I'd never even noticed that, but I can, I can literally picture that, um, I can picture him saying that and pointing at the screen.

Warren Cass 1:15:32 He was, he was clearly trained in things like NLP. Uh, his, the way his body language, the way he, he... Sometimes you could see through it, but actually most of the time he did it very naturally. Um, so he'd clearly been trained or he was just a very natural at it. But remember, you know, NLP in itself, its origins come from modeling the behavior of people who are good at what they, what they do.

Chris Williamson 1:15:53 Well, it's, yeah, it's, it's trying to, it's trying to recreate someone who naturally