How To Raise Your Profile, Manage Your Reputation and Get Noticed | Warren Cass

1. 0:00 – 4:32

   Waikiki setup, channel updates, and why influence matters

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Aloha from Waikiki. I am currently recording on a makeshift standing desk attached to the top of a fridge and a microwave on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. Now, there's an active volcano not very far away, and the world's loudest binmen outside as well. So if you hear some explosions, do not fret. It will just be the end of the world, or the bins being collected. (inhales sharply) Now, before I forget, the Modern Wisdom YouTube channel is live. Very happy to say that we've nearly hit one million watch minutes within the space of the first month. It's absolutely crazy. The response to the Love Island podcast has been insane. Shout out to the British press for both promoting and misrepresenting what I said. But all exposure's good exposure as far as I'm concerned. (laughs) The Love Island podcast is still not available on audio only, so if you want to check that out, you're gonna have to head to the YouTube channel. Please hit Subscribe, as it would make me very happy. Coming up soon, I have the long-awaited sequel to Jordan Wallis, Paul Warrior, and Tim Briggs from Reebok CrossFit Tyneside, We Dominate Nutrition and Warrior Programming. Plus, the world's only happyologist, positive psychology expert, Susanna Hallinan, will be dropping in to talk about happiness and her new book. But first, on to this week's guest. Warren Cass is an author, public speaker, businessman, entrepreneur, and a specialist in influence and personal brand development. Now, I've wanted to get him on the podcast for well over a year now. From before I even started, I knew that I wanted to get him on. I picked up his book, Influence, which will be linked in the show notes below, along with all of the partner companion stuff that he gives away for free on his website. (inhales sharply) I think, to one degree or another, everybody requires influence in their lives. They need to be able to control how their personal brand comes across, and they need to be able to communicate effectively. Now, this isn't just about being a go-getter, chasing after the next big job or whatever it might be. This could just be being a better partner, being a better parent, being a better whatever. You need to be able to communicate effectively. You need to be able to control how your personal brand is projected out into the world. What is the sort of example that you are setting? What are the sort of things that other people professionally, personally say about you when you're not around? (laughs) What is the kind of influence that you are having on your circles? Now, Warren takes us through a step-by-step personal brand and influence MOT. If you are someone who wants to improve their ability to communicate online or in person, their access to networks, their ability to influence others in a positive way, if you've always wanted to understand how neurolinguistic programming works, even if you've always wanted to know what people's eyes looking in different directions during a conversation means, (laughs) we go through it all. So, get your pen and paper out. Make sure that you're ready. Here we go. Warren Cass on influence. Mr. Warren Cass, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

   2. WCWarren Cass3:54

      Thank you for having me, Chris. Great to be here.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:57

      How are you today?

   4. WCWarren Cass3:58

      Bloody marvelous, you know. I've had a, a really, really busy month of- Got a couple of days in the office, which just, you know, catching up time. So yeah, really good. Thank you.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:05

      Fantastic. A little bit of time to reset.

   6. WCWarren Cass4:08

      Yeah, you need it every now and then, don't you?

   7. CWChris Williamson4:10

      Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's been a, it's been a difficulty in getting ahold of you, but I think that's, that's a, a test- testament to, uh, how much you're in demand at the moment, speaking about the topics that you do.

   8. WCWarren Cass4:22

      Yeah, it's very flattering, um, but, you know, obviously we're here to talk about influence today. And, and as somebody like yourself who, who builds a personal brand, you know, the bigger the brand gets, the more on-demand you get. And, uh, it's all good.

2. 4:32 – 7:06

   Defining influence: outcomes without force or manipulation

   1. CWChris Williamson4:32

      Yeah, it becomes a bit circular, doesn't it? So, you've, you've touched on the word of the day there. Can you, can you define what influence means to you?

   2. WCWarren Cass4:41

      Yeah, in very, very simple terms ... It's a broad topic, but in very simple terms, for me, it's about effecting an outcome without having to force it. Without having to force it also means, of course, without having to manipulate.

   3. CWChris Williamson4:53

      Yeah.

   4. WCWarren Cass4:53

      You know, we, we live in a world (laughs) where we're bombarded every single day with so many messages. And, uh, some of it is misinformation, and some of it's manipulation. Uh, but co- coming back to my definition of influence, influence is really when, uh, you can, uh, you can forward an idea or agenda without having to force it with people coming along because they want to, they've been inspired to. That's, that's how I like to define influence.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:16

      I understand. So, I, I picked up Influence, the book, around about a year ago, and was on a flight out to America. Wanted to get something that I could read on the way out, and it immediately, uh, stood out to me. Exactly as you said, we increasingly now, in the modern world, almost everybody, to one degree or another, is building a personal brand. You know, the advent of social media means that everyone treats their Instagram or Twitter account to varying degrees of professionality. Like, a traditional advertising medium. It's advertising for themselves. And whatever the goal is can change, but I do think that the, the hype, (laughs) to a degree, about someone's own life...... gets proliferated by them. And upon reading it, there was a few bits which the event managers who work for my company will hate hearing, uh, over, (laughs) over the airwaves as I won't shut up about it in the office sometimes-

   6. WCWarren Cass6:15

      (laughs) .

   7. CWChris Williamson6:15

      ... but serendipity is not a strategy for me. Just sits. It completely chopped at the knees so many of the, um, fortunate situations that you get into, and you can sometimes kid yourself have come about due to (sighs) some, uh, preparedness that you deep down know that you didn't do or some s- some connection which was done by pure chance. The serendipity is not a strategy can be, um, should be written on the wall at some points, I think. It, it reminds me that we need to be prepared, and that we, we need to cover all of the, the potential, um, avenues moving forward as we try to create a personal brand. So can you, can you tell us why you wrote the book?

3. 7:06 – 10:33

   Why Warren wrote 'Influence'—updating old principles for a new world

   1. WCWarren Cass7:06

      Yeah, I'll start by apologizing to your colleagues, though, if you're-

   2. CWChris Williamson7:09

      (laughs) .

   3. WCWarren Cass7:09

      ... (laughs) if you're, if you're quoting me all the time.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:11

      Yeah, the Warren Cass rhetoric-

   5. WCWarren Cass7:12

      (laughs) .

   6. CWChris Williamson7:12

      ... gets pushed hard in the Voodoo Events office, I'm afraid.

   7. WCWarren Cass7:15

      And do you know what? The, uh, serendipity has been really, really kind to me. Uh, and it has. I can't complain at all, but I've always had the best results when I've done things on purpose.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:24

      (laughs)

   9. WCWarren Cass7:25

      Uh, d- on and with purpose, I might say, so, uh, yeah, I totally, I totally agree. Um, why did I write the book? Well, well, first of all, I've been speaking on the subject for, uh, uh, well over a decade, and, uh, I wrote the book initially because I had two publishers (laughs) come to me and say, "Would you write a book?" And, uh, and I thought, "Well, okay. I've always avoided this in the past," because I've got a, a, um, you know, a big listener to podcasts. I subscribe to yours, uh, amongst others, and, uh, a- and knowledge, you know, is, is a really important thing. I think every day is a school day, so it's important to continuously learn.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. WCWarren Cass8:00

       Um, but I do think about most business books is that they're typically written by academics who decide to, uh, give too many examples where one or two would have done, um, and I, I believe-

   12. CWChris Williamson8:12

       (coughs) .

   13. WCWarren Cass8:13

       ... also most business books can be summarized in, you know, a f- a few pages rather than, uh, necessarily needing to take ev- everything on. And I was really trying to think hard about, "What am I gonna add value to this topic in a book format?" Bearing in mind, there are some classic books on this subject out there. And, uh, I mean, for example, you know, uh, in our pre-chat you were talking about Dale Carnegie and How to Win Friends and Influence People, probably the oldest and biggest selling book on that topic.

   14. CWChris Williamson8:41

       Yeah.

   15. WCWarren Cass8:41

       But it was written in 19- in the 1930s.

   16. CWChris Williamson8:44

       (laughs)

   17. WCWarren Cass8:45

       Um, you know, you've got The Psychology of Persuasion by Cialdini, a brilliant book written in the 1980s, and, uh, he has done some work since, there, but there was a gap, (smacks lips) uh, you know, and what's happened is we've had this explosion of population, uh, of technology, uh, since then, and it's fundamentally changed everything that we do. Um, it's changed the way we communicate, it's the changed way we access products and services, it's the changed way we consume, and so the, the world has changed, and we... You know, for me, it was, uh, it wa- it was the thing I'd been evangelizing on stage about, and I thought-

   18. CWChris Williamson9:20

       (laughs) .

   19. WCWarren Cass9:20

       ... "You know what? This is the angle I'm gonna take. This is, this is the way I'm gonna write the book." So that's what happened -

   20. CWChris Williamson9:24

       To bring, bring those, bring those things up to speed, so to speak.

   21. WCWarren Cass9:27

       Um, absolutely.

   22. CWChris Williamson9:28

       I think-

   23. WCWarren Cass9:28

       Take all those proved to tried and tested concepts, but actually, uh, make them relatable to a whole new generation of people.

   24. CWChris Williamson9:36

       A- a- applicable to the, the changed world as well. I think definitely when you, if you read David Allen's Getting Things Done, it, it almost becomes laborious to convert. So he talks about, like, using filofaxes and pagers and, you know, like, in trays and out trays and stuff like that, and you think that I've actually got to do a fair bit of the work. This self-help book requires me to do quite a lot of self-help to get the book to work for me, because it's so behind the times with what it would be. It would be an app now. It would be a, it would be a, a integration like Evernote or something like that. It would be productivity tools and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, you, you, you're very right. I think as the rate of change speeds up in the world, the body of knowledge around core concepts needs to keep up.

   25. WCWarren Cass10:29

       Hundred percent, or at least its application. Yeah, absolutely.

4. 10:33 – 12:43

   Everyone influences (and is influenced): relationships, moods, and media

   1. CWChris Williamson10:33

      I agree. So can you talk about why influence is important? Uh, do- does everybody have it?

   2. WCWarren Cass10:40

      Uh, kn- knowingly or unknowingly, uh, yeah, the vast majority of us have it, um, and should be aware of it if we, if we want things to happen in our lives, you know? That's, uh, the s- the simple fact of it. Um, I often start my talks with, with, uh, you know, defining the fact that we're all influenced every single day from the moment we get up in the morning. Our- our partner's expression or m- the mood they're in-

   3. CWChris Williamson11:04

      Mm-hmm.

   4. WCWarren Cass11:04

      ... can dictate our day.

   5. CWChris Williamson11:06

      (laughs) Yeah.

   6. WCWarren Cass11:06

      The, the microexpression of somebody on your commute to work, whether it's a Tube train or car, um, can dictate your mood for the day. It's been absolutely proven that, um, because we're such empathetic creatures, if we witness an act of kindness for the two ac- hours that follow, we are more kind, you know? So we, we are sponges, and we absorb, and that's just the human interactions. When you start factoring marketing messaging and, uh, media, um, you've got a, a whole different layer of influence there too.

   7. CWChris Williamson11:37

      Mm-hmm.

   8. WCWarren Cass11:37

      So the, the bit I maintain is that, um, that if you understand how you're received when you talk, when you communicate, if you understand how that comes across to others, you've got a better chance of, uh, being more effective in that communication. If you understand how you, you receive information and how other people, uh, influence you, you've got a, a better chance of, of having better responses to that influence, you know? So ultimately, if you're an ambitious person, you want to evolve your career, or, or even if you just want to improve your relationship with your wife, husband, children, colleagues, friends-... understanding influence is, uh, is in your best interests.

   9. CWChris Williamson12:20

      So it's, it's giving you some perspective of what you're receiving and what you're sending, to a degree?

   10. WCWarren Cass12:29

       Yeah. And, uh, you know, all communication really should start with an awareness of, of, of how it's being said, what, what's being said, 'cause we communicate on so many different levels, don't we? So, uh, just in, just increasing your awareness will make you more effective straightaway.

5. 12:43 – 16:21

   Influence MOT step 1: objectives, 'what & why,' and beating perfectionism

   1. CWChris Williamson12:43

      Where do you tend to start with people if you were to do a, um, an influence overhaul? If you were to take me in for an influence MOT, where would you, (laughs) uh, where would you start?

   2. WCWarren Cass12:56

      Well, (laughs) havin- having seen your profile, Chris, you're not doing too bad, my friend.

   3. CWChris Williamson13:01

      (laughs) Okay.

   4. WCWarren Cass13:01

      (laughs) Uh, yeah, you know, it, it really starts with finding out objectives. Uh, I wouldn't, um, I wouldn't dream to think that everybody wants the same thing, so, uh, you know, the very first thing I'd do is, is try and understand their what and their why, you know?

   5. CWChris Williamson13:16

      Mm-hmm.

   6. WCWarren Cass13:16

      What is it they wanna do, what is it they wanna be known for, and why is that important to them? Why is, why is that, uh, something that's gonna inspire and motivate others if that's, if that's the, uh, the way they're gonna go about it? So that would be absolutely the first step, is just to understand people's objectives. Without that, you can't put any g- any real strategy into place. Uh, don't get me- don't get-

   7. CWChris Williamson13:35

      If you, if you don't have a target to aim at, you'll always miss, right?

   8. WCWarren Cass13:38

      Th- that, that's the, that's the point. Uh, if you're, if, if you're coming at this from, uh, with a, with an outcome in mind, but of course some people just want to be nicer, more effective in their communication. There might not be an objective.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:49

      Yeah.

   10. WCWarren Cass13:49

       You could be retired and want to communicate better.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:51

       Mm-hmm.

   12. WCWarren Cass13:52

       That's fine. Um, but if, if the, the premise you gave me was an overhaul, so coming in and maybe working with somebody, I'd be first looking to understand what it is they're, uh, they're looking to do. And the reason of course for that is that, um, once you understand your marketplace, who you're looking to get out there and, um, you then need to identify your audience, where they play, the type of information they consume, uh, the type of people that are already influencing them, so who are the potential collaborators and, uh, people you might be able to take advantage of some of the principles I talk about in the book, like credibility by association.

   13. CWChris Williamson14:25

       Yes.

   14. WCWarren Cass14:25

       So there's, there's a whole load of, load of things that you might wanna do, um, once you're clear on why you wanna do it.

   15. CWChris Williamson14:32

       So we've established people's why-

   16. WCWarren Cass14:33

       Yep.

   17. CWChris Williamson14:33

       We've started to understand their objectives and what they want to do moving forward. I think that is a, that is a massive stumbling block, especially one of the biggest roots to procrastination is perfectionism. It sounds, it sounds quite strange and quite circular, but it, it genuinely is that waiting until you have everything in place or everything feels perfect is a, a really good excuse for procrastinating on getting sta- (laughs) getting started on a project. Um-

   18. WCWarren Cass15:02

       And of course, that can have a negative impact on influence as well, and I'm talking from personal experience here. Um, my, my reason for procrastination, uh, is very, very aligned with what you've just said. It's, uh, it's mainly because I like to do the job myself, because I know I, I'll do it the way I want it done.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:19

       And you'll get it done right, yeah. If you want a job doing right.

   20. WCWarren Cass15:22

       Yeah. Of course, but then if ... What happens is work and life and everything else gets in the way, and, you know, suddenly overwhelmed with jobs, and you don't get round to it. And of course having somebody else do it 80% to the standard that you would have done it is better than not getting done at all.

   21. CWChris Williamson15:35

       I agree with that.

   22. WCWarren Cass15:35

       So there's, you know, there's a (laughs) whole lot of things around that, but-

   23. CWChris Williamson15:37

       Agreed, yeah. You need to.

   24. WCWarren Cass15:38

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson15:38

       I think, I think especially in business, doubling down on your strengths. I said this in, uh, episode eight with Michael Cazau, who's the CEO of Brute Strength Training, and he said himself, his root to becoming one of the biggest CrossFit programming operations in the world was by doubling down on his strengths and employing people who could fill in where he's, uh, less capable or less passionate. And I think, uh, I think be- being a jack of all trades is, is really no use to anybody in, in a business context. So you've got me in. We've, we've had a look at, at my objectives. We've got around the fact that I'm a perfectionist and that I just need to, I need to get moving. Where do you go next?

6. 16:21 – 24:37

   Step 2: identify audiences—generations, diversity, and personalized messaging

   1. WCWarren Cass16:21

      So from an influence strategy point of view, uh, the first thing I would do is sit down, and based on what you've told me, identify, identify your audience. And, uh, a lot, a lot of people forget this, but, you know, I mean, that, that's, um, that's a, a bit more complex than, uh, than we think, because, you know, we're, we're living in times where there are five different generations in the workplace, all with a, uh ... This ne- And that's never, never been the case before. So we've got five different generations in the workplace, all with different unique experiences. And, uh, so I- identifying your, your audience is important, because we're, we're, uh, more multicultural than we've ever been before. We're generationally divided, um, and we've never been before. And that, that affects all sorts of things, like attitudes. I mean, uh, let me give you some examples of why identifying your audience properly is important.

   2. CWChris Williamson17:12

      Definitely.

   3. WCWarren Cass17:12

      And I'm gonna make one point at the end of it, but, uh, but I'll ... Uh, I'm sure, like me, you are tired of, uh, the term millennial.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:21

      (laughs) Yeah.

   5. WCWarren Cass17:22

      Right? I think everybody's sick to death of the term mille- millennial. But, but I do think it's important for older generations to understand what makes millennials tick. I think it's equally important for millennials to try and understand why we have, uh, we ... And I'm, I'm not a millennial. Uh, why we have a different perspective too.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:39

      Yeah.

   7. WCWarren Cass17:39

      And this, this comes down to, um, our, our experiences. So a couple of, couple of quick stats to throw out at you. Um, the average age for marriage, mortgage, and kids in the '70s was 23 years old. And today that's more like 36 years old.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:58

      Wow.

   9. WCWarren Cass17:58

      Um, so there's a load of changes. So what you can-

   10. CWChris Williamson18:00

       So what, what you're saying is that I've actually still got time, and that my business partner can stop applying pressure to me?

   11. WCWarren Cass18:05

       Of course. Absolutely.

   12. CWChris Williamson18:05

       (laughs)

   13. WCWarren Cass18:05

       That's exactly what I'm saying. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson18:09

       (laughs)

   15. WCWarren Cass18:09

       And, and some of those reasons, by the way, will be financial, and you know... and because, uh, actually, uh, we have more ex- we- we're, we're more experiential.... now. Um, so we have, uh, the world is our lobster Rodney, you know, we can go anywhere. We can, we can do a, uh, anything we want to do, so we tend to, uh, put off some of the, uh, other bigger decisions because while we're young, we wanna have those experiences. That's one. Um, student debt is another. You know, there's a load of reasons why those things happen. Um, so that's, that's just marriage, mortgage, and kids. Um, beyond that, uh, work. So in the US only 7% of millennials work for Fortune 500 companies. Um, and that's mainly because, uh, millennials who are of, of an age ready to work, um, want to be inspired by what they do. So they either start their own businesses where they're connected to their why, or they go and work for smaller organizations where they're working directly with the entrepreneur behind the business so they can feel like they're making a difference. So that's im- that's important to a generation. Um, and then, you know, you look into things like, uh, politics, and we, we live in an age of great misinformation-

   16. CWChris Williamson19:25

       (laughs)

   17. WCWarren Cass19:25

       ... where (laughs) , where, you know, we're d- we're as, as divided as we've ever been, uh, when... And, you know, there's a whole load of reasons for that, and we can go into that if you want to or we can avoid it like the plague ƒ

   18. CWChris Williamson19:35

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm happy for us to open up whatever, whatever Pandora's box we go into today is absolutely fine, Warren.

   19. WCWarren Cass19:41

       No problem. So, y- you know, the, the thing about, um, misin- an age of misinformation is it makes actually all of us that little bit more skeptical. Um, so, you know, when we're told things, our fin- first instincts now should be to not believe it until we've actually seen evidence or facts or something to support it. Um, you know, social media absolutely dominates, uh, what we do. It's democratized, you know, conversations really, and it's, and it's made, uh, every, every opinion have its microphone, you know? Um, so we have to be careful of, of what we take in and believe. And consumerism has changed. You know, again, millennials... Uh, and in fact, just coming to this point, you know, the, the term millennial is quite often accepted anybody after 1980, so it's 38 years and younger at the time of recording this.

   20. CWChris Williamson20:29

       Yeah.

   21. WCWarren Cass20:30

       And, uh, the other thing that's happened since 1980 is the world population has doubled. So we're now over seven billion people on the planet, and that's doubled in the last 38 years, which actually should scare the shit out of anybody listening.

   22. CWChris Williamson20:46

       (laughs)

   23. WCWarren Cass20:46

       It really, really should. But that means half the world population are in this-

   24. CWChris Williamson20:51

       Are milen- millennials, yeah.

   25. WCWarren Cass20:52

       Are millennials, yeah. And so it's now the most, uh, dominant consumer group online. You know, from a consumering- uh, consumerism point of view, uh, less brand loyal. You know, if a, a brand they were using every single day disappears tomorrow, that's fine. They'll move on to the next one, but it'd be largely based on things like social proof. So your reputation matters. Um, you know, it's why we, we, uh, we read the reviews on Google, on Amazon, on TripAdvisor, um, profile, um, testimonials on LinkedIn, et cetera. You know, we're interested in this stuff because we want social proof. We wanna make the best decision based on what our peers recommend. It's, you know, it's, it's the way it works. So we've got all of that going on, and then we've got, um, diversity with multiculturalism. You know, even, even faith is changing. You know, in the UK, we're becoming more and more atheist. In some European countries, it's almost totally atheist.

   26. CWChris Williamson21:44

       Yeah.

   27. WCWarren Cass21:44

       And e- even in the US now, I think I read somewhere earlier this year that, um, y- it's less than 50% now that class themself as white Christian in the US, which is, you know, it was, it, it was, it was never that, uh (laughs) -

   28. CWChris Williamson21:57

       No.

   29. WCWarren Cass21:57

       ... it was always such a dominant demographic.

   30. CWChris Williamson21:59

       Absolutely.
7. 24:37 – 34:03

   Step 3: credibility by association—collaboration and adding value first

   1. WCWarren Cass24:37

      So that would be- that would be the next step. The next step after that, I would then be looking at all of the people who already have influence over that audience, and I'd be s- very simply making friends, maybe asking them to guest post on a blog, maybe interviewing them for a podcast. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson24:53

      Yeah.

   3. WCWarren Cass24:53

      You know, r- reaching out to, to, uh, other influencers. First of all, it's flattering. They're gonna get some profile. It's a win-win there. Um, they're gonna let their audience listen to or read your content, so you get the credibility by association thing that comes in then. Wha- what you're doing is you're slowly building your audience and building your influence, uh, towards that audience. Because the, the key, the only real thing I think, uh, nowadays, um, is of long-term strategy when it comes to, um, building influence, is to actually genuinely try and add value-

   4. CWChris Williamson25:26

      I couldn't agree more.

   5. WCWarren Cass25:27

      ... to the audience you serve. Um, and that could be from great content, but you really genuinely have to try and add value to the audience you serve.

   6. CWChris Williamson25:34

      Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I was... I've got a, uh, an upcoming livestream (laughs) that I'm gonna do on Instagram, maybe tomorrow when I'm driving. I'm going down to Shropshire tomorrow, and, um, it's talking about people who have a massive platform online and are choosing to use it for, uh, reasons which add absolutely zero value as far as I can see. And, uh, the analogy that I'm going to draw is that in the same way as a strong person needs to protect the weak because it's a duty, they have a particular skill or a particular, um, uh, they have a particular attribute which is a travesty to not use when it's called upon, if you have a platform and if you are looked up to and if you are held in a position of credibility, which is increasingly being bestowed on people who probably don't deserve it, and you're not using it to add value and to make people's lives better, as far as I'm concerned, it's a, it's a bit of a catastrophe and it's a real wasted resource, and it shows just how little you do care for the audience that you've got. And that's not for me to say, like, I'm... you know, eh, with my s- small following, uh, bestowing words of wisdom or something like that. But I am, I'm trying to do my best to speak for something of value, something that the people that follow me and that follow my friends and, you know, introduce them to interesting people like yourself that will enrich their lives and, and, and help them make good lives better and bad lives less, less bad. Um, you know, tha- that, that seems great, but, yeah, the, the prospect of having a platform and not using it, to me, is sacrilege, I think.

   7. WCWarren Cass27:19

      So I'm often asked what, um... how do I define a good speaker? And let's just assume, uh, the given is that they know what they're talking about, uh, and, you know-

   8. CWChris Williamson27:29

      (laughs) Which is probably not a very good given sometimes. (laughs)

   9. WCWarren Cass27:31

      (laughs) No, well, l- well, let's just for the, for the point I'm gonna make-

   10. CWChris Williamson27:34

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. WCWarren Cass27:34

       ... um, make it a given. So there, there are two things which in my experience, uh, the best speakers I've ever met have, and the first thing is an ego. And I know that's gonna sound negative, um, and it, and it is to a certain extent. But, uh, if you're the type of person, um... and I mean, Chris, you know, I've seen your, your Instagram account. You clearly care about what you're doing, um, but there's clearly an ego in there, uh, uh, as well, right?

   12. CWChris Williamson27:59

       Mm-hmm.

   13. WCWarren Cass28:00

       Um, so having an ego isn't a bad thing as long as our desire to add value and serve our audience is higher and bigger than our ego. So-

   14. CWChris Williamson28:10

       It's a very interesting point.

   15. WCWarren Cass28:12

       So the best speakers I know stand up, get a real thrill from standing up on stage. Absolutely, they do. But their desire to effect change in others is bigger than their ego.

   16. CWChris Williamson28:22

       Mm.

   17. WCWarren Cass28:24

       And think of s- think of some world politicians right now, mention no names.

   18. CWChris Williamson28:28

       Yeah.

   19. WCWarren Cass28:28

       Um, uh, wouldn't it be amazing if they had, if they leveraged the platform that's come from, you know, you know, their notoriety and everything that they do, because their desire to effect change in others and add value was bigger than their ego? What, what a difference that would make.

   20. CWChris Williamson28:42

       Well, the, the, the point that you've missed there is that you're presuming that they know what they're talking about.

   21. WCWarren Cass28:47

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson28:47

       (laughs)

   23. WCWarren Cass28:48

       That's a very good point. Touche, my friend.

   24. CWChris Williamson28:52

       (laughs) So yes, we've talked about the, uh, avenues of access to the audience that we've defined. We've looked at our why. Um, where are we going to next?

   25. WCWarren Cass29:05

       So the n- the next stage I would go to, we've, we've added value, we're collaborating with other influencers, so we're starting to really build our reach.

   26. CWChris Williamson29:13

       Oh, the, uh... Sorry to, to interject.

   27. WCWarren Cass29:14

       Yep.

   28. CWChris Williamson29:14

       The credibility by association thing which you touched on earlier on, I really enjoyed in the book. I think, um, you're totally correct. When you see someone who you follow... How many times do you go out and listen to a Joe Rogan podcast? Matthew Walker, who wrote Why We Sleep, I'd seen Why We Sleep advertised on Amazon, it had been pinged to me off my Kindle or my email, but I listened to him on Joe Rogan for three hours. Obviously, h- in and of himself, he was very charming and added a lot of value, but also the platform that Joe Rogan gave him allowed me to be exposed to him, lended more credence, more credibility to what he was saying, and I b- I bought the book while I was listening to him. So...

   29. WCWarren Cass29:58

       So there's a whole, there's a whole lot of kinda cliches on we're known by the company we keep, or we are the, the kind of net product of the five people we hang around most with, you know. There's all, all of those ones which people know, and-

   30. CWChris Williamson30:08

       Do they ring, do they ring true for you?
8. 34:03 – 38:38

   Credibility by association stories: from conferences to local influence

   1. WCWarren Cass34:03

      Com- coming back to the credibility by association there, 'cause you mentioned one of the stories in the book. And, and, and actually just so this, this lands with your, your, um, your audience, there's a cou- couple of quick stories I'll tell. One from the book and one who's, o- one that isn't. But, um, for me, it comes back to this term about u- understanding the power that somebody who already has profile either endorsing you or taking you under their wing or being seen with you, the power that can have. So, the story I talk about in the book is, um, a, a personal development speaker, author, uh, and a- actually, to a certain extent, mentor to me when I was, uh, when I was younger, is a guy called Jack Black. And-

   2. CWChris Williamson34:41

      Not the Jack, not the Jack Black.

   3. WCWarren Cass34:42

      Not, not the Hollywood Jack Black.

   4. CWChris Williamson34:44

      (laughs)

   5. WCWarren Cass34:44

      Uh, no. Glaswegian Jack Black, who built a brand called Mindestore. Uh, so it's, it's, um, it, it's all about, kind of, personality and, uh, uh, sorry, um, personal development. H- he was a social worker in the '80s, and he was fascinated by personal development himself, so he started developing his own content. And when he was ready to launch his own business, he saw the concept of credibility by association. He may not have called it that, but he, he borrowed £10,000, and he put Sir John Harvey Jones on stage next to him in front of 2,000 Glaswegian business owners at a conference or an event he was running, 'cause he understood that Sir John Harvey Jones would be the draw, but then the moment he's on stage and he's on stage with him, he gets the credibility that comes with that. And overnight, he was the business guru that works with Sir John Harvey Jones-

   6. CWChris Williamson35:31

      (laughs)

   7. WCWarren Cass35:32

      ... and as a result, built a really good, powerful business.

   8. CWChris Williamson35:34

      Yeah.

   9. WCWarren Cass35:35

      Um, you may have heard the name Judy Nake, who, um-

   10. CWChris Williamson35:38

       No.

   11. WCWarren Cass35:39

       ... who, who sold her business for seventy- 75 million. Uh, it was the ... She didn't even develop the product, but she had the distribution rights to the St. Tropez, um, tanning-

   12. CWChris Williamson35:48

       Okay. Okay.

   13. WCWarren Cass35:49

       ... tanning stuff.

   14. CWChris Williamson35:49

       Heard of that.

   15. WCWarren Cass35:50

       And yeah, so for her, uh, I mean, she's quite an inspirational businesswoman anyway 'cause of the way she dealt with people. But, uh, she attributes, uh, a lot of her success to having somebody like Victoria Beckham walking out of the store with a clear c- plastic bag and her product in the bag. And, uh, uh, when, when I heard her story, it was within the months that followed she did about two million in sales just because of that one media appearance.

   16. CWChris Williamson36:19

       Yeah.

   17. WCWarren Cass36:19

       And, you know, so that, that whole credibility by association thing can be really, really powerful, but it can be used ... Uh, it doesn't ... You know, we're talking about big things here, like a 75 million, um, sale. How does that a- how does that apply to a florist, uh, working in a town center, or how ... Or, you know, or somebody just want ... Has a aspiration for a local business and doesn't necessarily wanna take it any bigger? For, for them, it's really about identifying the influencers locally. If you want more people to know you locally-... try and find the people who have sway, who, who make recommendations day in, day out, who are the networkers, who are the people that you can build relationships with over a coffee just locally, 'cause they're approachable. Um, you know, these are, these are simple principles or concepts, and they can be applied at whatever level or, um, or whatever level of aspiration you have for your business.

   18. CWChris Williamson37:08

       I understand. I think what we're obviously skirting around here to a degree is the, um, the very overused term now of influencers, mostly used for social media. Um, you know, the, the number of product endorsements that you get now is leveraging this exact credibility by association, isn't it? You look at for most of the, the listeners, boohoo.com and ASOS and Topman and even Jacamo and people like that are trying to rebrand themselves by attaching themselves to people like Freddie Flintoff and ... Do you know what I mean? Like they're, they are this credibility by association has become a major industry in and of itself.

   19. WCWarren Cass37:48

       It has, and, uh, uh, but a- and, you know, it's n- it's not necessarily new. I know influencer marketing is a, is a more recent term, but, you know, I remember over a decade ago when, uh, BlackBerry were, uh, one of the dominant brands in, in mobile phones, and, uh, they had a, a ... they called it their ambassador scheme, but it was just influencer marketing. They identified people who were prominent in loads of different niches. Uh, I w- I was, I was one of them in the small business sector, 'cause at the time I was running a, a, a large business network. Um, and, you know, it meant every month I got the n- the next new shiny phone to, as l- you know, as long as I shared it, wrote about it-

   20. CWChris Williamson38:24

       Yeah.

   21. WCWarren Cass38:24

       ... et cetera, et cetera. Um, uh, so I was one of the ambassadors amongst other people. Um, but it, y- you know, that was, that for me was when I started to really notice that, uh, you know, this was a, a principle that could be leveraged by anybody, really.

9. 38:38 – 41:17

   Approaching influencers the right way: 'what’s in it for them' and no cold asks

   1. CWChris Williamson38:38

      So by trying to get some credibility by association here, how, how can we access these people? Obviously by virtue of them being in a, a position of existing influence, or potentially, uh, either a different or a, a higher level of access to network than we have. What are the, what are the, the effective ways that someone can go about enticing somebody in? Uh, in terms of contact, or if they're meeting them face-to-face, what can they do to, um, make them f- have more confidence in the, in the pitch, so to speak, to become associated?

   2. WCWarren Cass39:14

      Yeah, so this is a good question. It's one I'm often asked, uh, because of course nobody wants to go reach out to somebody who's got sway and influence and immediately be asking for something. Uh, that's the sure- surest fire way to, uh, to turn them off and get them to ignore everything that you do. So, um, you know, most people, uh, want to understand, uh, what makes you tick, your values, your intentions, before they're gonna, uh, invest any time into you. Um, so that's the first thing. Um, I used to sell sponsorship. So, uh, you know, with our, with our, t- our business network brand, we, uh, managed to attract really nice sponsorship figures from brands like Santander, um, BlackBerry, O2, uh, Microsoft, et cetera. And you don't attract those brands unless, um, unless there's something in it for them. (laughs) And so you always lead-

   3. CWChris Williamson40:01

      That's true.

   4. WCWarren Cass40:01

      ... with what's in it for them. And I think this is the, this is the principle as well when you're approaching people within your network. It's seeking to add value first. Um, so, you know, for example, if I'd already started to build an audience and I, and I wanted to, uh, attract the attention of a, of an influencer, I'd probably invite them to be interviewed. They're probably gonna want to at some level share their message. Um, they're gonna be flattered by the invitation. Uh, it's no different from you inviting me onto this podcast, Chris.

   5. CWChris Williamson40:29

      Mm-hmm.

   6. WCWarren Cass40:29

      You know, it's nice to, to, um, reach a different audience, you know. That, that works with ... The, the whole principle of credibility by association's at play here, by the way, you know, 'cause, uh, I'm sure you'll enjoy it when I share the podcast with m- my audience, because th- that, uh, broadens yours. Um, and you've already got a, an audience which might be a different demographic than I normally talk to, so, you know, we both win from it. It's we're both getting the credibility by association from the conversation, as long as, of course, we're both not coming across as morons.

   7. CWChris Williamson40:58

      (laughs)

   8. WCWarren Cass40:59

      Which, uh, I-

   9. CWChris Williamson41:00

      Let's hope.

   10. WCWarren Cass41:00

       ... I choose to believe we're not. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson41:03

       Yeah.

   12. WCWarren Cass41:03

       So, you know, a- approaching somebody, I would, I would seek to add value first. I would, I would av- I avoid asking for anything. I would seek to add value, um ... Uh, uh, I would avoid asking for anything that's not in their interests, if you know what I mean.

   13. CWChris Williamson41:16

       Yeah. I know.

10. 41:17 – 45:10

    Own your platform: email lists, deplatforming risk, and ‘owning reach’

    1. WCWarren Cass41:17

       That's a good starting point. So, um, and then of course, you know, once you've, once you've started that, there's t- two things I would add to this journey of influence, uh, that we started on, 'cause we've got ... Assume you know your what and why, understand who your audience is, identify the influencers in the marketplace, add value and collaborate. Um, and I, I would then say there's only really two more s- steps to this, uh, from an influence strategy point of view. Of course, we can go into lots more detail on any of those things-

    2. CWChris Williamson41:43

       Mm-hmm.

    3. WCWarren Cass41:43

       ... but as a, as a broad strategy, one is then to continue to build your reach, and preferably on your own pr- platform. So we rely so heavily on, um, uh, the platforms that are readily available to us like YouTube and Facebook and what have you. Uh, but actually, you know, it's quite turbulent. They are changing, and because some of the, um, uh, personal brands out there have become a little bit more con- uh, controversial, they're being deplatformed. So where the-

    4. CWChris Williamson42:12

       Milo, Milo Yiannopoulos is now off, off Twitter and-

    5. WCWarren Cass42:15

       Uh, yeah, well, he's been off Twitter for some time, but, um-

    6. CWChris Williamson42:18

       Yeah.

    7. WCWarren Cass42:18

       ... but, but actually, yeah, he was deplatformed not just from, from Twitter, but things like Breitbart too, you know.

    8. CWChris Williamson42:24

       Yeah. (laughs)

    9. WCWarren Cass42:24

       Um, so, you know, it's, it, the, the crowds can have that impact, so it's important for you to own your own platform and ... or to, to own your reach, own your relationship with your audience, rather than rely on somebody else would be my advice, and people-

    10. CWChris Williamson42:39

        Interesting, I'm getting interesting interjection here. I don't know whether you follow much of what Tim Ferriss does?

    11. WCWarren Cass42:45

        Yes.

    12. CWChris Williamson42:45

        Um, but his ... He is, he is number one-... um, advocate of email lists that he pushes everybody, he maximizes, and he sings this, the, the exact same, uh, hymn sheet that you are about the algorithm on Facebook can change, and there's nothing that you can do about it. The reach on YouTube, so on and so forth, everything is mediated by this third party, and I think that's one of the reasons why he's such a big advocate of getting, maximizing email, uh, subscription and email sign-up, because it is a direct, um, vo- uh, line of communication from him to his audience.

    13. WCWarren Cass43:24

        100%. And actually, it's not just restricted to things like that. I read somewhere recently that Google's about to change their algorithms yet again, so it's not... You know, you could have done as much as you wanted to with SEO in the past, but it's not necessarily gonna help you moving forward. Um, you know, it's gonna be weighted in different ways. So it's, uh, you know, the- these are things that you constantly have to keep on top of, but owning your relationship with your audience is massively important.

    14. CWChris Williamson43:48

        How else can someone ensure that they own the relationship with their audience, or own their platform, as you put it?

    15. WCWarren Cass43:53

        Um, uh, so specifically, uh, t- to answer that question, I would, I, I would be, wherever possible, taking them away from the places that you met them in the first place-

    16. CWChris Williamson44:03

        (laughs)

    17. WCWarren Cass44:04

        ... and building that subscription. So Tim, what Tim does is he'll, he'll go and play on social media. Uh, he has k- lots of referral schemes in place. He relies on his audience to help him build his audience too. Um, but he will, he will give you something of value, but in, in order to get that something of value, you're subscribing, so it could be a, uh, uh, ten top tips on how to whatever.

    18. CWChris Williamson44:24

        Yeah.

    19. WCWarren Cass44:24

        But you part, you part with your email address. And then he makes it very clear, "I'm gonna send you something of value, uh, on a regular basis. If you, if you don't want that thing of value, then, uh, you know, adios, no problem. But, uh, but if you do, then know why you're doing this. It's not me spamming. I'm sending you something of value."

    20. CWChris Williamson44:40

        Yeah.

    21. WCWarren Cass44:40

        So, you know, it's being really clear with intentions. Um, and, you know, the point is that all of the hard work should have been done before that stage. You know, the people you're talking to should understand your values. They should understand the value you bring to them. And therefore, you know, when they subscribe, um, it's, it, it's (laughs) a consensual act, you know?

    22. CWChris Williamson45:00

        They've got a feeling of certainty and safety that they're, that they're buying into something that they value.

    23. WCWarren Cass45:07

        Absolutely. Absolutely.

    24. CWChris Williamson45:09

        Okay, so-

11. 45:10 – 51:24

    Productize and repeat: the influence flywheel + tech-driven market disruption

    1. WCWarren Cass45:10

       And then th- the, then the last step I would take beyond buil- you know, continuing to build your reach and own your platform would be to, uh, you know, productize. Take advantage of what you've built, productize, then rinse and repeat. You know, all of those steps, you can continuously go through them, and, you know, you should be, on a regular basis, as the world changes around you, revisiting your what and your why, um, and how your audience is changing, and therefore, you know, where are they playing now? What's the change in technology or social media that they've moved onto?

    2. CWChris Williamson45:38

       Mm.

    3. WCWarren Cass45:39

       Um, you know, who are the new influencers? Who can you give a helping hand to who might be bringing a new audience with them? Um, add value, collaborate, continue to build your reach, productize, rinse and repeat.

    4. CWChris Williamson45:51

       I think what I like about that particular layout is that the productize comes at the end, and the operating a freemium model or over-delivering on the front end, as it's known, uh, in the online marketing world, is, um, a commonly, a commonly used approach now. And as you say, exactly, exactly right with Tim Ferriss, what you get, you get an awful lot of value for a very little, um, investment, i.e. something that's free, y- giving your email across. But the content that you get is very, very highly valued, and that the productizing or the, um, turning that into a financial or "business" plan almost becomes, uh, uh, emerges organically out of all of the steps that you've built upon, that you've got this level of credibility, that you have good access to market, that you understand the audience that you're speaking to.

    5. WCWarren Cass46:50

       Yeah. A- and so, whilst productize is the end in that simple model, a- actually the reality is you do all of those things all at the same time.

    6. CWChris Williamson46:58

       (laughs) Yeah.

    7. WCWarren Cass46:58

       Um, (laughs) you know, it's, it's nice and easy to sort of spell it out in steps, but of course, if you've got a product and service to sell, you're gonna sell it to the audience that you've got at the time you start really. Um-

    8. CWChris Williamson47:08

       Yeah.

    9. WCWarren Cass47:08

       ... you, you know, it... But you're right. What it, you know, the considerations up until the point of productize and selling something is making sure that you've got something that's truly of value, and it's a consensual act, you know, that your audience want it. Um, but, uh, that's, it's a very simple philosophy on, on the whole thing. I mean, as I say, the world has changed. You know, influence has changed massively. Uh, what most people, uh, perceive to be the change might just be societal, but actually we've had changes in, in how technology's impacted business. You know, it's a, a nice little stat that over 40% of the companies at the top of the Fortune 500 in the year 2000 were no longer there in the year 2010.

    10. CWChris Williamson47:48

        Is that true? Oh my God.

    11. WCWarren Cass47:48

        Uh, that's true. And, and, you know, even on top of that, you've got brands that have come from nowhere which, you know, we've all heard of and know of, like the Ubers and the Airbnbs-

    12. CWChris Williamson47:57

        Mm.

    13. WCWarren Cass47:57

        ... who, uh, have come from nowhere, worth absolute fortunes, um, but don't necessarily (laughs) own the product or service. They own the access to the product or service, so they, they have the influence over the audience. You know, U- Uber's the biggest fleet of cars in the world. They don't own a car.

    14. CWChris Williamson48:13

        Yeah.

    15. WCWarren Cass48:13

        Uh, Airbnb is the biggest portfolio of property in the world. They don't own a property. They have-

    16. CWChris Williamson48:17

        I think, I think Alibaba's the same, but for retail.

    17. WCWarren Cass48:20

        Yeah, sure. Sure, and you know, and yeah, Amazon the same for, for retail as well, you know.

    18. CWChris Williamson48:26

        Yeah.

    19. WCWarren Cass48:26

        They, it's, it's the people who own the relationship with the customer, with the audience. And of course, they're their own platforms. (laughs) They've built their own platforms.

    20. CWChris Williamson48:33

        They own their own platform, yeah.

    21. WCWarren Cass48:34

        And they own the relationship, so, you know, that's absolutely, um, telling. Um, and, you know, there's... The opposite is true. I mean, think, think of brands that, uh, that should've done it. I mean, yell.com, or Yellow Pages-... Yellow, Yellow.com are actually doing some really quite good stuff now around small business marketing, websites, SEO, and all of that type of thing. They are doing some good things. But, but actually, considering they started in 1956-

    22. CWChris Williamson49:00

        (laughs)

    23. WCWarren Cass49:01

        ... um, in Brighton-

    24. CWChris Williamson49:01

        A little bit ahead of everyone else.

    25. WCWarren Cass49:03

        Well, in Brighton, um, they started the, with the Yellow Pages, they suddenly grew, they eventually grew onto four continents, and they dominated search. And the internet came along and there was nobody saying, "How is this internet thing going to affect our business?" They should have been Google.

    26. CWChris Williamson49:20

        But they weren't. Blockbuster, the same.

    27. WCWarren Cass49:23

        Blockbuster, um very similar. Kodak, very similar. Kodak actually invented the digital camera, the thing that we all walk around with in our pockets and just call a phone, but it's an, an Oracle multipurpose (laughs) device. They invented the digital camera and they even brought futurists into their business in the '80s and said, "Uh, what's the future of digital f- well, what's the future of photography?" And of course they said, "The future's digital." And they said, "That's not what we, what we wanted to hear. You're fired."

    28. CWChris Williamson49:47

        I didn't want that, yeah.

    29. WCWarren Cass49:48

        (laughs) Uh, you know, so there, there was a load of people that are really close-minded to the change that's happening all around them, but it's, uh, but it's, it's, it's not just technology that changes. In fact, one of the examples I use on stage, I'll give you it now, there's a, a barometer for how long it takes a product or service to reach 50 million users. Okay, so for the telephone, it was 75 years. For the radio, it was 38 years. For the TV, it was 13 years. The iPod did it in four, the internet did it in three, Facebook did it in two, the iPhone did it in three months. Now if you think about it-

    30. CWChris Williamson50:26

        (laughs)
12. 51:24 – 53:56

    Face-to-face influence is the future: stay human in an automated world

    1. CWChris Williamson51:24

       S- so I wanted to talk about, um, personal brands and how people-

    2. WCWarren Cass51:28

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson51:28

       ... how people display themselves both, both online and in person. I know you, in the book, you touch on, um, ways to dress, colors and how they elicit different, uh, emotions and different sort of ties and, and, and outfits, neuro-linguistic programming, body language. Um, let's start with how you can make a good impression face to face. I know a lot of people when we talk about influence may be thinking about what happens online, and that may be a, a high volume of the traffic that goes backwards and forwards. But certainly for me, when I meet, um, when I meet with other business people and people of influence who are good face to face, they leave a very marked impression on me in a different way to someone who's good online does. It seems to be a much, a much rarer skillset.

    4. WCWarren Cass52:20

       It's, it's a much rarer skillset, but it's gonna be the one which I believe will be utterly in demand in the next couple of decades.

    5. CWChris Williamson52:28

       Why?

    6. WCWarren Cass52:28

       Uh, the, the, the line I use on stage is in an age of automation, artificial intelligence, and robotization, stay human.

    7. CWChris Williamson52:35

       Ah. (laughs) Yes. Very nice.

    8. WCWarren Cass52:36

       So, you know, the, the point which I want people to understand is that, you know, we are becoming more disconnected from each other, uh, uh, you know, counterintuitively, 'cause we're more connected, you know, via technology, but we're actually more disconnected on a hu- human level, because it's, as we said earlier on, it's highlight reels that are being shared, it's, it's, uh, superficial stories, it's summaries rather than in- in-depth conversations, you know. People are projecting them- their best selves rather than their, their vulnerable selves, if you know what I mean. So they're not doing the human thing. And so I, I believe one of the core competencies, one of the core skills that you can, you can go and develop, no matter what industry you're in and what level you want to achieve within that industry, if you want to be more effective with all of your relationships, then you need to become a student of people. And that includes yourself. Understand who you are and then be authentic to that. But under- understand other people and adapt how you communicate with them to their preferences. So there's a number of tools for that which we can un- unpack if you want to.

    9. CWChris Williamson53:39

       Yes, please.

    10. WCWarren Cass53:39

        But, uh, but that's the, um, that's, I, I think it's gonna be the most important skill. And, and even on a, a big brand kind of corporate level, it's gonna be about demonstrating values and telling stories, because that's how we're gonna be connecting with people more and more.

    11. CWChris Williamson53:55

        Mm-hmm.

13. 53:56 – 1:04:39

    NLP and reading people: representational systems, eye cues, and listening

    1. WCWarren Cass53:56

       So, uh, to unpack the original bit, where communication starts, I'll, I'll tell you a couple of things. First of all, let's talk about what the communication model is, how the process of communication. So we have, um ... Uh, very, very, very easily, we have external stimula that comes in. Now it can be in a number of different formats. And we'll receive that and process it through our kind of visual, auditory, kinesthetic, uh, even, even through, um, you know, things like taste, you know. We'll, we'll interpret the world around us, uh, in a number of different ways. But let's say mainly through our eyes, ears, and, you know, what we, what we sense and what we feel.

    2. CWChris Williamson54:35

       Yeah.

    3. WCWarren Cass54:37

       Um, and then what happens is we apply our normal filters. So our filters will generalize, distort, and delete. You know, they will, they will map that information against our own values, our social conditioning, uh, the beliefs that we hold, um, and the, the memories that we have. Um, you know, we are a product of our environment, it's that whole kind of conversation around nature and nurture. I think it's, uh...... in most cases, nurture will win every single time.

    4. CWChris Williamson55:04

       Hm.

    5. WCWarren Cass55:05

       Um, so we are a product of our environment. But anyway, all of those things, um, they basically constitute our map of reality. This was once, um, uh, highlighted to me, uh, quite recently actually, where somebody had come in to a, a friend of mine who was, who was coaching, and, uh, she was coaching this particular client, and they said, um, "I wanna be a, a better communicator, a better speaker." And she said, "Okay, well, we need to work on your confidence." And she says, "Oh, no, I don't want to work on my confidence."

    6. CWChris Williamson55:33

       (laughs)

    7. WCWarren Cass55:33

       She said, said, "Well, why don't you want to work on your confidence?" "Because I don't want to come across as arrogant." So in her map of reality, the word confidence means arrogant.

    8. CWChris Williamson55:41

       Ah.

    9. WCWarren Cass55:41

       Um, and the assumption that we always make is that everybody thinks the same way that we do, or, or uses language in the same way that we do, or has interpreted the world around them in the same way that we have. And it's a kind of fatal mistake. So the communication model is, it comes in, external stimuli, we put it through our filters, um, map it against, you know, our map of reality. This affects our physical state, and therefore our physiology, and therefore it impacts the way we behave. That's the simple process of communication, okay?

    10. CWChris Williamson56:09

        Okay.

    11. WCWarren Cass56:09

        The next thing is really around, um, then how, how we internally process information. So if you can understand somebody's preference to things like visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or even, uh, you know, those that are real logic thinkers, this is touching on some of the things that NLP will, will teach. Um, you know, if you're, if you're dealing with somebody who has a strong visual preference, and you can identify that, you can use language like, uh, "Do you see what I mean?" Or, "Can you see the, can you see the big picture?" You know, you'd use visual language, and you'd probably be a little bit more effective with them. If somebody's got an auditory preference with how they process information, it was, "Do you hear what I'm saying?" Um, if it's feelings, you know, um, you know, "I, I get the feeling that..." And you can use those language. You know, "How does that feel to you," for example. So the key is how you identify people's representational systems.

    12. CWChris Williamson57:01

        I was gonna say, how do you-

    13. WCWarren Cass57:02

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson57:02

        ... how do you determine that?

    15. WCWarren Cass57:03

        There's a number of tools. Um, and that, and before I tell you, before I give you the answer to that, 'cause it's, um, you know, there, it, there's a, there's another level of complexity, and I don't know if you've ever done psychometrics, Chris.

    16. CWChris Williamson57:14

        I, I haven't.

    17. WCWarren Cass57:15

        Have you ever done a DISC profile, something like that?

    18. CWChris Williamson57:16

        I've done a Big Five...

    19. WCWarren Cass57:18

        Okay.

    20. CWChris Williamson57:18

        ... which is a pers- personality assessment. Um, I'm not sure if that counts.

    21. WCWarren Cass57:22

        You know, I en- I encourage everybody to go off and, and, uh, do these things. Because there's a, there's a, always gonna be a slight improvement in self-awareness that comes from it.

    22. CWChris Williamson57:33

        What would you recommend?

    23. WCWarren Cass57:35

        Um, so DISC is the, is the, the one that's, uh, best known, but, you know, there's Myers-Briggs, there's Belbin. They're all good for different contexts. Uh, DISC is the one that's really known, and, and quite often used by other tools too. They adapt, they take the standard core of it when they apply different learnings. You know, the thing about these things is they'll put you into a, into a box for the sake of, um, uh, overview analytics, but actually, we all have adaptive behaviors too, and-

    24. CWChris Williamson58:00

        Mm-hmm.

    25. WCWarren Cass58:00

        ... and we all s- you know, float in between different... For example, I'm a, I'm a high I in DISC, which is, uh, energetic, uh, big picture, enthusiastic, uh, outgoing, all of those things. But, um, but actually, if I come across somebody who's, uh, very dominant, and, and task focused, and strong-willed, and forceful, I'll adapt my behavior to, uh, to ultra dominate them, if you know what I mean. 'Cause I don't (laughs) I don't like being dominated. So-

    26. CWChris Williamson58:26

        Ah, yes.

    27. WCWarren Cass58:27

        ... my adaptive behavior will, will be to, uh, to, to match theirs. Um, but it will all, it will always be... Our, our adaptive behaviors are also, also always very true to our values. They, they're anchored to our values. Um, but again, it's a, it's a thing to understand. So for example, in the sales context, if, if I was going into a sales meeting, and I'm, I meet somebody like me, we're gonna have a, a bit of a laugh. We're gonna have banter, we're gonna be telling stories. You know, it's talking big, big picture. It's gonna be enthusiastic and, and positive. Um, if I go in and speak to somebody who's highly analytical, uh, with a strong preference for detail, um, I immediately will adapt the way I'm communicating, and I'll get to the point first. I'll do the numbers, and, you know. Otherwise, if I'm doing my usual thing, they'll just be thinking, "Just get on with it."

    28. CWChris Williamson59:14

        Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    29. WCWarren Cass59:14

        "What, what for numbers? Give me the details." Uh, they'll, they'll be distracted by that. So you have to adapt the way that you speak to others, to, to match their communication preferences.

    30. CWChris Williamson59:24

        Okay, so how are we...
14. 1:04:39 – 1:20:59

    Rapport mechanics: posture, expressions, cultural gestures, voice, and stories

    1. CWChris Williamson1:04:39

       the, the best impression of yourself face-to-face?

    2. WCWarren Cass1:04:42

       So, um, so we, we talk, talk about getting into rapport with somebody, and there's, um, there's a, a number of different ways of getting into rapport, uh, but let's start with the physiology. So r- rapport is that kind of ac-, that, that time of connection with somebody where, you know, you're starting to build trust. Um, so from a physiology point of view, uh, simple things like, um, blinking and breathing at the same pace. On a subconscious level, you know, people-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:05:10

       Is that easy to, is that easy to do?

    4. WCWarren Cass1:05:11

       Um, well, do you know the, the key with all of these things is if you, if you force it, uh, and you're obvious with it, it feels like manipulation and it will have the opposite effect. It will, it will turn somebody off. But if-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:05:21

       Yeah. Breaks down, breaks down the fourth wall.

    6. WCWarren Cass1:05:23

       Yeah. But if you, if you, if you come in, um, to a, a situation with somebody and you genuinely just want to try and be synchronized, um, that's, that's, that's a different thing altogether. In fact, the biggest way of, you know, I'm gonna tell you a few things about rapport now, but actually the biggest way of, of, um, building rapport with somebody is when you're asking all of those great questions we just talked about, genuinely listen to their answer. You know, if you're really listening to somebody, you'll naturally fall into rapport with them anyway. Um, in fact, I was at, um, uh, a, an exhibition in London called The Best You. Big shout out to Bernardo Moya who, who runs that event-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:05:58

       (laughs)

    8. WCWarren Cass1:05:58

       ... in London every, every year. Um, and I was talking, I had a, I was speaking there, but I had a stand as well, so I was on the stand talking to people, and I was talking to this woman who's really, really skeptical a- about anything to do with things like rapport. And after about 10 minutes, she had kind of relaxed, she was showing more interest, and I just highlighted to her that, um, we were stood in exactly the same pose, which was my hand was on my midsection kind of holding the buckle of my belt.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:06:24

       Mm.

    10. WCWarren Cass1:06:24

        And she'd, she'd come into that same pose, and she said, "Well, you've just put your hands there. I've been stood this way." (laughs) She was real skeptical.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:06:30

        Yeah.

    12. WCWarren Cass1:06:31

        I said, "Actually, I've been stood like this for an hour. My belt broke an hour ago."

    13. CWChris Williamson1:06:34

        (laughs)

    14. WCWarren Cass1:06:35

        "I've been holding, (laughs) I've been holding my trousers up. Um, you've, you've fallen into rapport with me." And, you know, it, it does happen. It's because on a subconscious level, we do actually want to connect with other people. So the, the whole blinking and breathing thing is, uh, is a, a, a nice gentle way of doing it. Um, the expressions on our faces, you know, um, uh, being in control of our own expressions, having a smile on our face, you know, all of, all of the, all of those things is, is easy to do, yet people don't do it. Uh, but it's gotta be an authentic smile as well. And so two quick things on this. I was once in an audience, uh, speaking to an audience, and a guy in the audience had this grimace on his face the whole way through my talk, and as a speaker, I'm, I try and make eye contact with everybody.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:07:17

        Yeah.

    16. WCWarren Cass1:07:18

        ... and, uh, I immediately thought, "God, this guy hates what I'm saying."

    17. CWChris Williamson1:07:21

        (laughs)

    18. WCWarren Cass1:07:22

        (laughs) And at the end of the talk, you know, his facial expression hadn't changed. At the end of the talk, he came up to me and he said, "That was one of the best presentations I've ever heard." (laughs) I thought, "You have forgotten to tell your face, my friend." Um-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:07:34

        (laughs)

    20. WCWarren Cass1:07:34

        ... uh, he con- co- he utterly confused me with that response. Uh, and, uh, you know, we're in control of our expressions, so if you want to make friends with people and build rapport, then of course, you know, just relax into it. Um, one of the people who didn't do this authentically though was, um, a previous, uh, PM, Gordon Brown. So Gordon Brown, at one of the elections, uh, was basically advised by somebody within his team to go and practice his smile, and before the cameras were turned up at one of the BBC election debates in Bristol, he stood at the lectern for about 15 minutes practicing his smile, which just didn't look natural at all. So, this is where you've got to get the balance right with who you authentically are.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:08:17

        Yeah.

    22. WCWarren Cass1:08:18

        Um, but anyway, moving on. Then you've got things like, uh, the non-verbal, our gestures. Um, so, you know, our reptilian brains, if you approach somebody with your hands behind your back, their immediate subconscious thought is, "What are you hiding? What weapon are you gonna pull out and- and-"

    23. CWChris Williamson1:08:32

        Do this. Yeah.

    24. WCWarren Cass1:08:32

        "... cockley off the head with." Exactly. So open body language. Um, positive body language, you know. Um, uh, but then being mindful about what different gestures mean i- mean in different countries. A- a quick funny, a friend of mine, Steve Clark, uh, was speaking in Tehran, and in Tehran, uh, he said one of the things, Steve's lo- puts his thumbs up all the time. You know, he's, he, "Is that all right?" "Yep, yep," as a speaker.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:08:56

        Mm-hmm.

    26. WCWarren Cass1:08:56

        And, uh, he'd made a point and then put his thumbs up. Now, in, in Iran, if you put your, your thumb up at somebody, you're flipping the bird, you're doing the equivalent of the bird.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:09:06

        (laughs)

    28. WCWarren Cass1:09:06

        So he had 400 people in an audience-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:09:07

        Just done that to an entire auditorium.

    30. WCWarren Cass1:09:10

        Well, 400 people in an audience, uh, who he'd just flipped, um, you know, consistently. He carried on doing it-

Episode duration: 1:42:07