How To Raise Your Profile, Manage Your Reputation and Get Noticed | Warren Cass

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Aloha from Waikiki.…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Aloha from Waikiki. I am currently recording on a makeshift standing desk attached to the top of a fridge and a microwave on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. Now, there's an active volcano not very far away, and the world's loudest binmen outside as well. So if you hear some explosions, do not fret. It will just be the end of the world, or the bins being collected. (inhales sharply) Now, before I forget, the Modern Wisdom YouTube channel is live. Very happy to say that we've nearly hit one million watch minutes within the space of the first month. It's absolutely crazy. The response to the Love Island podcast has been insane. Shout out to the British press for both promoting and misrepresenting what I said. But all exposure's good exposure as far as I'm concerned. (laughs) The Love Island podcast is still not available on audio only, so if you want to check that out, you're gonna have to head to the YouTube channel. Please hit Subscribe, as it would make me very happy. Coming up soon, I have the long-awaited sequel to Jordan Wallis, Paul Warrior, and Tim Briggs from Reebok CrossFit Tyneside, We Dominate Nutrition and Warrior Programming. Plus, the world's only happyologist, positive psychology expert, Susanna Hallinan, will be dropping in to talk about happiness and her new book. But first, on to this week's guest. Warren Cass is an author, public speaker, businessman, entrepreneur, and a specialist in influence and personal brand development. Now, I've wanted to get him on the podcast for well over a year now. From before I even started, I knew that I wanted to get him on. I picked up his book, Influence, which will be linked in the show notes below, along with all of the partner companion stuff that he gives away for free on his website. (inhales sharply) I think, to one degree or another, everybody requires influence in their lives. They need to be able to control how their personal brand comes across, and they need to be able to communicate effectively. Now, this isn't just about being a go-getter, chasing after the next big job or whatever it might be. This could just be being a better partner, being a better parent, being a better whatever. You need to be able to communicate effectively. You need to be able to control how your personal brand is projected out into the world. What is the sort of example that you are setting? What are the sort of things that other people professionally, personally say about you when you're not around? (laughs) What is the kind of influence that you are having on your circles? Now, Warren takes us through a step-by-step personal brand and influence MOT. If you are someone who wants to improve their ability to communicate online or in person, their access to networks, their ability to influence others in a positive way, if you've always wanted to understand how neurolinguistic programming works, even if you've always wanted to know what people's eyes looking in different directions during a conversation means, (laughs) we go through it all. So, get your pen and paper out. Make sure that you're ready. Here we go. Warren Cass on influence. Mr. Warren Cass, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

   2. WCWarren Cass3:54

      Thank you for having me, Chris. Great to be here.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:57

      How are you today?

   4. WCWarren Cass3:58

      Bloody marvelous, you know. I've had a, a really, really busy month of- Got a couple of days in the office, which just, you know, catching up time. So yeah, really good. Thank you.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:05

      Fantastic. A little bit of time to reset.

   6. WCWarren Cass4:08

      Yeah, you need it every now and then, don't you?

   7. CWChris Williamson4:10

      Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's been a, it's been a difficulty in getting ahold of you, but I think that's, that's a, a test- testament to, uh, how much you're in demand at the moment, speaking about the topics that you do.

   8. WCWarren Cass4:22

      Yeah, it's very flattering, um, but, you know, obviously we're here to talk about influence today. And, and as somebody like yourself who, who builds a personal brand, you know, the bigger the brand gets, the more on-demand you get. And, uh, it's all good.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:32

      Yeah, it becomes a bit circular, doesn't it? So, you've, you've touched on the word of the day there. Can you, can you define what influence means to you?

   10. WCWarren Cass4:41

       Yeah, in very, very simple terms ... It's a broad topic, but in very simple terms, for me, it's about effecting an outcome without having to force it. Without having to force it also means, of course, without having to manipulate.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:53

       Yeah.

   12. WCWarren Cass4:53

       You know, we, we live in a world (laughs) where we're bombarded every single day with so many messages. And, uh, some of it is misinformation, and some of it's manipulation. Uh, but co- coming back to my definition of influence, influence is really when, uh, you can, uh, you can forward an idea or agenda without having to force it with people coming along because they want to, they've been inspired to. That's, that's how I like to define influence.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:16

       I understand. So, I, I picked up Influence, the book, around about a year ago, and was on a flight out to America. Wanted to get something that I could read on the way out, and it immediately, uh, stood out to me. Exactly as you said, we increasingly now, in the modern world, almost everybody, to one degree or another, is building a personal brand. You know, the advent of social media means that everyone treats their Instagram or Twitter account to varying degrees of professionality. Like, a traditional advertising medium. It's advertising for themselves. And whatever the goal is can change, but I do think that the, the hype, (laughs) to a degree, about someone's own life...... gets proliferated by them. And upon reading it, there was a few bits which the event managers who work for my company will hate hearing, uh, over, (laughs) over the airwaves as I won't shut up about it in the office sometimes-

   14. WCWarren Cass6:15

       (laughs) .

   15. CWChris Williamson6:15

       ... but serendipity is not a strategy for me. Just sits. It completely chopped at the knees so many of the, um, fortunate situations that you get into, and you can sometimes kid yourself have come about due to (sighs) some, uh, preparedness that you deep down know that you didn't do or some s- some connection which was done by pure chance. The serendipity is not a strategy can be, um, should be written on the wall at some points, I think. It, it reminds me that we need to be prepared, and that we, we need to cover all of the, the potential, um, avenues moving forward as we try to create a personal brand. So can you, can you tell us why you wrote the book?

   16. WCWarren Cass7:06

       Yeah, I'll start by apologizing to your colleagues, though, if you're-

   17. CWChris Williamson7:09

       (laughs) .

   18. WCWarren Cass7:09

       ... (laughs) if you're, if you're quoting me all the time.

   19. CWChris Williamson7:11

       Yeah, the Warren Cass rhetoric-

   20. WCWarren Cass7:12

       (laughs) .

   21. CWChris Williamson7:12

       ... gets pushed hard in the Voodoo Events office, I'm afraid.

   22. WCWarren Cass7:15

       And do you know what? The, uh, serendipity has been really, really kind to me. Uh, and it has. I can't complain at all, but I've always had the best results when I've done things on purpose.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:24

       (laughs)

   24. WCWarren Cass7:25

       Uh, d- on and with purpose, I might say, so, uh, yeah, I totally, I totally agree. Um, why did I write the book? Well, well, first of all, I've been speaking on the subject for, uh, uh, well over a decade, and, uh, I wrote the book initially because I had two publishers (laughs) come to me and say, "Would you write a book?" And, uh, and I thought, "Well, okay. I've always avoided this in the past," because I've got a, a, um, you know, a big listener to podcasts. I subscribe to yours, uh, amongst others, and, uh, a- and knowledge, you know, is, is a really important thing. I think every day is a school day, so it's important to continuously learn.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:59

       Mm-hmm.

   26. WCWarren Cass8:00

       Um, but I do think about most business books is that they're typically written by academics who decide to, uh, give too many examples where one or two would have done, um, and I, I believe-

   27. CWChris Williamson8:12

       (coughs) .

   28. WCWarren Cass8:13

       ... also most business books can be summarized in, you know, a f- a few pages rather than, uh, necessarily needing to take ev- everything on. And I was really trying to think hard about, "What am I gonna add value to this topic in a book format?" Bearing in mind, there are some classic books on this subject out there. And, uh, I mean, for example, you know, uh, in our pre-chat you were talking about Dale Carnegie and How to Win Friends and Influence People, probably the oldest and biggest selling book on that topic.

   29. CWChris Williamson8:41

       Yeah.

   30. WCWarren Cass8:41

       But it was written in 19- in the 1930s.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   And of course, that…

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      (laughs) getting started on a project. Um-

   2. WCWarren Cass15:02

      And of course, that can have a negative impact on influence as well, and I'm talking from personal experience here. Um, my, my reason for procrastination, uh, is very, very aligned with what you've just said. It's, uh, it's mainly because I like to do the job myself, because I know I, I'll do it the way I want it done.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:19

      And you'll get it done right, yeah. If you want a job doing right.

   4. WCWarren Cass15:22

      Yeah. Of course, but then if ... What happens is work and life and everything else gets in the way, and, you know, suddenly overwhelmed with jobs, and you don't get round to it. And of course having somebody else do it 80% to the standard that you would have done it is better than not getting done at all.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:35

      I agree with that.

   6. WCWarren Cass15:35

      So there's, you know, there's a (laughs) whole lot of things around that, but-

   7. CWChris Williamson15:37

      Agreed, yeah. You need to.

   8. WCWarren Cass15:38

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson15:38

      I think, I think especially in business, doubling down on your strengths. I said this in, uh, episode eight with Michael Cazau, who's the CEO of Brute Strength Training, and he said himself, his root to becoming one of the biggest CrossFit programming operations in the world was by doubling down on his strengths and employing people who could fill in where he's, uh, less capable or less passionate. And I think, uh, I think be- being a jack of all trades is, is really no use to anybody in, in a business context. So you've got me in. We've, we've had a look at, at my objectives. We've got around the fact that I'm a perfectionist and that I just need to, I need to get moving. Where do you go next?

   10. WCWarren Cass16:21

       So from an influence strategy point of view, uh, the first thing I would do is sit down, and based on what you've told me, identify, identify your audience. And, uh, a lot, a lot of people forget this, but, you know, I mean, that, that's, um, that's a, a bit more complex than, uh, than we think, because, you know, we're, we're living in times where there are five different generations in the workplace, all with a, uh ... This ne- And that's never, never been the case before. So we've got five different generations in the workplace, all with different unique experiences. And, uh, so I- identifying your, your audience is important, because we're, we're, uh, more multicultural than we've ever been before. We're generationally divided, um, and we've never been before. And that, that affects all sorts of things, like attitudes. I mean, uh, let me give you some examples of why identifying your audience properly is important.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:12

       Definitely.

   12. WCWarren Cass17:12

       And I'm gonna make one point at the end of it, but, uh, but I'll ... Uh, I'm sure, like me, you are tired of, uh, the term millennial.

   13. CWChris Williamson17:21

       (laughs) Yeah.

   14. WCWarren Cass17:22

       Right? I think everybody's sick to death of the term mille- millennial. But, but I do think it's important for older generations to understand what makes millennials tick. I think it's equally important for millennials to try and understand why we have, uh, we ... And I'm, I'm not a millennial. Uh, why we have a different perspective too.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:39

       Yeah.

   16. WCWarren Cass17:39

       And this, this comes down to, um, our, our experiences. So a couple of, couple of quick stats to throw out at you. Um, the average age for marriage, mortgage, and kids in the '70s was 23 years old. And today that's more like 36 years old.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:58

       Wow.

   18. WCWarren Cass17:58

       Um, so there's a load of changes. So what you can-

   19. CWChris Williamson18:00

       So what, what you're saying is that I've actually still got time, and that my business partner can stop applying pressure to me?

   20. WCWarren Cass18:05

       Of course. Absolutely.

   21. CWChris Williamson18:05

       (laughs)

   22. WCWarren Cass18:05

       That's exactly what I'm saying. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson18:09

       (laughs)

   24. WCWarren Cass18:09

       And, and some of those reasons, by the way, will be financial, and you know... and because, uh, actually, uh, we have more ex- we- we're, we're more experiential.... now. Um, so we have, uh, the world is our lobster Rodney, you know, we can go anywhere. We can, we can do a, uh, anything we want to do, so we tend to, uh, put off some of the, uh, other bigger decisions because while we're young, we wanna have those experiences. That's one. Um, student debt is another. You know, there's a load of reasons why those things happen. Um, so that's, that's just marriage, mortgage, and kids. Um, beyond that, uh, work. So in the US only 7% of millennials work for Fortune 500 companies. Um, and that's mainly because, uh, millennials who are of, of an age ready to work, um, want to be inspired by what they do. So they either start their own businesses where they're connected to their why, or they go and work for smaller organizations where they're working directly with the entrepreneur behind the business so they can feel like they're making a difference. So that's im- that's important to a generation. Um, and then, you know, you look into things like, uh, politics, and we, we live in an age of great misinformation-

   25. CWChris Williamson19:25

       (laughs)

   26. WCWarren Cass19:25

       ... where (laughs) , where, you know, we're d- we're as, as divided as we've ever been, uh, when... And, you know, there's a whole load of reasons for that, and we can go into that if you want to or we can avoid it like the plague ƒ

   27. CWChris Williamson19:35

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm happy for us to open up whatever, whatever Pandora's box we go into today is absolutely fine, Warren.

   28. WCWarren Cass19:41

       No problem. So, y- you know, the, the thing about, um, misin- an age of misinformation is it makes actually all of us that little bit more skeptical. Um, so, you know, when we're told things, our fin- first instincts now should be to not believe it until we've actually seen evidence or facts or something to support it. Um, you know, social media absolutely dominates, uh, what we do. It's democratized, you know, conversations really, and it's, and it's made, uh, every, every opinion have its microphone, you know? Um, so we have to be careful of, of what we take in and believe. And consumerism has changed. You know, again, millennials... Uh, and in fact, just coming to this point, you know, the, the term millennial is quite often accepted anybody after 1980, so it's 38 years and younger at the time of recording this.

   29. CWChris Williamson20:29

       Yeah.

   30. WCWarren Cass20:30

       And, uh, the other thing that's happened since 1980 is the world population has doubled. So we're now over seven billion people on the planet, and that's doubled in the last 38 years, which actually should scare the shit out of anybody listening.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Do they ring, do…

   1. WCWarren Cass30:00

      on we're known by the company we keep, or we are the, the kind of net product of the five people we hang around most with, you know. There's all, all of those ones which people know, and-

   2. CWChris Williamson30:08

      Do they ring, do they ring true for you?

   3. WCWarren Cass30:10

      Uh, they, uh, uh, n- uh, not... If I'm gonna be really strict, um, w- yes, we are known by the company we keep, absolutely, positively and negatively. Um, but the whole five, five people that we hang around the most with, I think is nonsense, uh, o- of course, you know, I, they...... uh, networks aren't restricted to five people. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson30:28

      Yeah.

   5. WCWarren Cass30:28

      You know? You know, we know lots and lots and lots of people. And in different contexts, uh, we'll hang around with different people. You know, if I'm, if I'm, uh ... Like the comedy course I, I went on to the other week, uh, you know, there's a, a WhatsApp group now of a, a whole load of budding comedians having fun. That's got nothing to do with my work, it's got very little to do with my home life or my friends, actually. Um, so we, we live in, uh, pockets of interests, and, uh, and we build communities within our pockets of interest. And hopefully, um, you know, we're multi-layered human beings with lots of interests, and-

   6. CWChris Williamson30:59

      You try and take the best from everyone, right?

   7. WCWarren Cass31:01

      Yeah. Do you know what? Um, e- even ... A love- a lovely thing, I mean, I'm a mid-forties guy, right? So I'm, I'm, uh, 45 years old. I'm 46 this year. And, uh, you know, speaking is one of the things I'm passionate about. This, this, uh, last month, I managed to, um, speak up for a client in Glasgow. And what was really lovely is that, uh, uh, my, my dirty little secret is for the last 14 years, I've been an Xbox, uh, fanatic.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:26

      (laughs)

   9. WCWarren Cass31:26

      I managed to avoid it while I was building a technology business in the i- in the '90s, and, uh, my wife and kids bought me an Xbox for my birthday, which was, uh, a really fatal thing to do.

   10. CWChris Williamson31:39

       (laughs)

   11. WCWarren Cass31:39

       But Call of Duty being my game of choice.

   12. CWChris Williamson31:41

       Okay.

   13. WCWarren Cass31:41

       Um, of course, what happens, you start to, um-

   14. CWChris Williamson31:44

       (coughs)

   15. WCWarren Cass31:44

       ... make friends and build a clan. And, uh, and that, that happened. Anyway, I got up to Glasgow for, for this speaking event, and, uh, really brilliantly, I managed to meet up with some of my clan and go out for a few beers-

   16. CWChris Williamson31:56

       No way.

   17. WCWarren Cass31:56

       ... and have, have a bit of fun. Now, some of these people I've known really well for over 12 years, but have never met face-to-face.

   18. CWChris Williamson32:03

       AFK, as it's known. Away from keyboard.

   19. WCWarren Cass32:06

       Absolutely, yeah. Um, so, you know, th- uh, as I say, you know, it's not, it's n- It doesn't really matter how we connect with others, it just matters that we do connect with others. And, uh, and I think-

   20. CWChris Williamson32:16

       I think, I think there's definitely, um ... There's a lot to be said about ... We did a, uh, recently did a podcast on confidence, and one of the things that I tried to take away from that was talking about being truthful and being vulnerable to a degree. And I think that making a, making a genuine connection or committing to making a genuine connection, even if it's only mostly going to be one way, the majority of social media is one, is y- you speaking and then some responses. There's more of you speaking than there are responses for most, most people online. But for you to add value, personally, I think that there has to be a level of vulnerability because presuming that you genuinely care about what it is that you're talking about, you, you have to be very honest and very open and very truthful with it. That doesn't mean that you have to be completely transparent, but it does mean that you have to, um, allow people to see a, a very true, true side of you. And I think that can probably be quite daunting for a lot of people who are concerned that their audience might not like what they hear.

   21. WCWarren Cass33:17

       Well, it's also daunting 'cause it's not the way we're being socially conditioned right now. If you think about it, um, social media is people's highlight showreel. It's not, it's not real life. Um, but actually, when you think about the biggest connections you've ever had with somebody, it's where you've actually been vulnerable, um, or, you know, utterly honest and human. Uh, that's, that's where we connect. And-

   22. CWChris Williamson33:37

       It's an incredibly endearing trait.

   23. WCWarren Cass33:39

       Well, you know, even as a speaker, one of the biggest weapons I'll use on stage and, uh, is self-deprecation.

   24. CWChris Williamson33:45

       Mm-hmm.

   25. WCWarren Cass33:45

       And I'm quite happy to take the mick out of myself. It really, it really doesn't, um, doesn't bother me at all. Uh, but it, but it does relax an audience because suddenly they're not thinking, "We're listening to some know-it-all on stage."

   26. CWChris Williamson33:56

       Yeah.

   27. WCWarren Cass33:56

       It's a, it's a human being just sharing, sharing their story. And that's, um, that's the way it should be. But c-

   28. CWChris Williamson34:01

       Very British characteristic as well.

   29. WCWarren Cass34:03

       Com- coming back to the credibility by association there, 'cause you mentioned one of the stories in the book. And, and, and actually just so this, this lands with your, your, um, your audience, there's a cou- couple of quick stories I'll tell. One from the book and one who's, o- one that isn't. But, um, for me, it comes back to this term about u- understanding the power that somebody who already has profile either endorsing you or taking you under their wing or being seen with you, the power that can have. So, the story I talk about in the book is, um, a, a personal development speaker, author, uh, and a- actually, to a certain extent, mentor to me when I was, uh, when I was younger, is a guy called Jack Black. And-

   30. CWChris Williamson34:41

       Not the Jack, not the Jack Black.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   They've got a feeling…

   1. WCWarren Cass45:00

      you know?

   2. CWChris Williamson45:00

      They've got a feeling of certainty and safety that they're, that they're buying into something that they value.

   3. WCWarren Cass45:07

      Absolutely. Absolutely.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:09

      Okay, so-

   5. WCWarren Cass45:10

      And then th- the, then the last step I would take beyond buil- you know, continuing to build your reach and own your platform would be to, uh, you know, productize. Take advantage of what you've built, productize, then rinse and repeat. You know, all of those steps, you can continuously go through them, and, you know, you should be, on a regular basis, as the world changes around you, revisiting your what and your why, um, and how your audience is changing, and therefore, you know, where are they playing now? What's the change in technology or social media that they've moved onto?

   6. CWChris Williamson45:38

      Mm.

   7. WCWarren Cass45:39

      Um, you know, who are the new influencers? Who can you give a helping hand to who might be bringing a new audience with them? Um, add value, collaborate, continue to build your reach, productize, rinse and repeat.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:51

      I think what I like about that particular layout is that the productize comes at the end, and the operating a freemium model or over-delivering on the front end, as it's known, uh, in the online marketing world, is, um, a commonly, a commonly used approach now. And as you say, exactly, exactly right with Tim Ferriss, what you get, you get an awful lot of value for a very little, um, investment, i.e. something that's free, y- giving your email across. But the content that you get is very, very highly valued, and that the productizing or the, um, turning that into a financial or "business" plan almost becomes, uh, uh, emerges organically out of all of the steps that you've built upon, that you've got this level of credibility, that you have good access to market, that you understand the audience that you're speaking to.

   9. WCWarren Cass46:50

      Yeah. A- and so, whilst productize is the end in that simple model, a- actually the reality is you do all of those things all at the same time.

   10. CWChris Williamson46:58

       (laughs) Yeah.

   11. WCWarren Cass46:58

       Um, (laughs) you know, it's, it's nice and easy to sort of spell it out in steps, but of course, if you've got a product and service to sell, you're gonna sell it to the audience that you've got at the time you start really. Um-

   12. CWChris Williamson47:08

       Yeah.

   13. WCWarren Cass47:08

       ... you, you know, it... But you're right. What it, you know, the considerations up until the point of productize and selling something is making sure that you've got something that's truly of value, and it's a consensual act, you know, that your audience want it. Um, but, uh, that's, it's a very simple philosophy on, on the whole thing. I mean, as I say, the world has changed. You know, influence has changed massively. Uh, what most people, uh, perceive to be the change might just be societal, but actually we've had changes in, in how technology's impacted business. You know, it's a, a nice little stat that over 40% of the companies at the top of the Fortune 500 in the year 2000 were no longer there in the year 2010.

   14. CWChris Williamson47:48

       Is that true? Oh my God.

   15. WCWarren Cass47:48

       Uh, that's true. And, and, you know, even on top of that, you've got brands that have come from nowhere which, you know, we've all heard of and know of, like the Ubers and the Airbnbs-

   16. CWChris Williamson47:57

       Mm.

   17. WCWarren Cass47:57

       ... who, uh, have come from nowhere, worth absolute fortunes, um, but don't necessarily (laughs) own the product or service. They own the access to the product or service, so they, they have the influence over the audience. You know, U- Uber's the biggest fleet of cars in the world. They don't own a car.

   18. CWChris Williamson48:13

       Yeah.

   19. WCWarren Cass48:13

       Uh, Airbnb is the biggest portfolio of property in the world. They don't own a property. They have-

   20. CWChris Williamson48:17

       I think, I think Alibaba's the same, but for retail.

   21. WCWarren Cass48:20

       Yeah, sure. Sure, and you know, and yeah, Amazon the same for, for retail as well, you know.

   22. CWChris Williamson48:26

       Yeah.

   23. WCWarren Cass48:26

       They, it's, it's the people who own the relationship with the customer, with the audience. And of course, they're their own platforms. (laughs) They've built their own platforms.

   24. CWChris Williamson48:33

       They own their own platform, yeah.

   25. WCWarren Cass48:34

       And they own the relationship, so, you know, that's absolutely, um, telling. Um, and, you know, there's... The opposite is true. I mean, think, think of brands that, uh, that should've done it. I mean, yell.com, or Yellow Pages-... Yellow, Yellow.com are actually doing some really quite good stuff now around small business marketing, websites, SEO, and all of that type of thing. They are doing some good things. But, but actually, considering they started in 1956-

   26. CWChris Williamson49:00

       (laughs)

   27. WCWarren Cass49:01

       ... um, in Brighton-

   28. CWChris Williamson49:01

       A little bit ahead of everyone else.

   29. WCWarren Cass49:03

       Well, in Brighton, um, they started the, with the Yellow Pages, they suddenly grew, they eventually grew onto four continents, and they dominated search. And the internet came along and there was nobody saying, "How is this internet thing going to affect our business?" They should have been Google.

   30. CWChris Williamson49:20

       But they weren't. Blockbuster, the same.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yep. …

   1. WCWarren Cass1:00:00

      Where, where their eyes go gives you a bit of an indication into their, their communication preference. So imagine you're looking at somebody, and their eyes go top right-hand corner. Uh, so they're top left.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:11

      Yep.

   3. WCWarren Cass1:00:11

      Top right to you. That's visual recall. So they're, they're accessing memories. If it goes to the other side, it's visual construct. That's imagination. Often, um, misused by police forces who think people are constructing alibis if they spend a lot of time there.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:24

      (laughs)

   5. WCWarren Cass1:00:25

      Remember, it's not an exact science. It's just a, a good way of, uh, understanding a preference. So, uh, if they're, if they stay dead even but go to the left, uh, uh, so they go to the right as facing, that's auditory recall. So remembering what somebody said. Uh, to the left, it's auditory construct, imagining what somebody might say. Um, if it, if it goes to the bottom right-hand car- side, that's internal dialogue. That's probably somebody very strong, logical thinker who's actually asking themselves the question, and per- and trying to figure out what their answer is. If it's the opposite side, bottom left, that's kinesthetic, touch, taste, smell, et cetera. So they're somebody very connected to their feelings. And typically, somebody who's a strong k- kinesthetic thinker will be...... uh, slower in their communication, uh, 'cause they're feeling it.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:01:09

      Ah.

   7. WCWarren Cass1:01:09

      Uh, so, so that's, that's one example. Um, but, do you know the really simple way of understanding, uh, somebody's preference with all of these things is to listen. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:01:22

      (laughs)

   9. WCWarren Cass1:01:22

      Honestly, it's not more complex than that. Asking really good questions and listening. You see, um, on top of communication and representational systems, the thing which I really go off about is context. Everybody has a context. Everybody has, uh, a set of circumstances that are really unique to them, and the only way we get to understand people's communication preferences, personality types, and their context, is to ask them really good questions. They did an, uh, a study where they took a chap, who was flying transatlantically from New York to the UK. And, uh, this could be just an urban myth, by the way, but I've been telling the story because I heard it years ago and thought it was, I thought it was cool. But this person was flying transatlantically from New York to the UK, seven hours on the flight, and they gave him the task that you've got to keep the guy next to you talking for the whole seven hours-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:12

       (laughs) Oh my God.

   11. WCWarren Cass1:02:12

       ... without re- without revealing a single piece of information about yourself.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:02:17

       Wow.

   13. WCWarren Cass1:02:18

       So, when they landed, they interviewed the guy, the other passenger, and they said, "How was your flight?" "It was amazing. It was really good."

   14. CWChris Williamson1:02:26

       (laughs)

   15. WCWarren Cass1:02:26

       "What about the guy you were sat talking to?" "Oh, what a fella. Really cool guy." "What was his name?" Couldn't tell you. Didn't have a Scooby-Doo. Hadn't given them any information at all. He'd just shown such, such genuine interest that this person had been made to feel like a million dollars. So, um, you have two byproducts of asking good questions and being interested in people. One is you get to learn their personality preferences, representational systems, um, and, uh, context. The second is, they really like you because you've shown interest in them. They feel special. And so it has, it's a double-edged sword. It works really, really well. You know, in a networking context, I meet people who are nervous about networking all the time, and, you know, networking can be daunting, and there's no two ways around it. But actually, if you just get good at asking people questions and showing genuine interest in people... And it's no different from dating, Chris, is it? You know?

   16. CWChris Williamson1:03:21

       Mm-hmm.

   17. WCWarren Cass1:03:21

       If I, if I knew these tools when I was, um, 16, 17 years old (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson1:03:25

       You'd have had a, a much different teenage, teenage years.

   19. WCWarren Cass1:03:28

       Yeah. Just show interest in people.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:03:29

       Yeah.

   21. WCWarren Cass1:03:29

       You know, make them feel special by showing genuine interest. It's the key to all things, and it's the-

   22. CWChris Williamson1:03:33

       I think you, you're very right. Everyone, everyone knows or everyone's got that friend who just won't shut up about what they've got going on, and no one really wants to be around them or they tolerate them to varying degrees. But yeah, when I think about the people who I have the most connection with, it's the ones who ask questions, who ask me how I'm doing or how my day's gone or follow up something. They don't just ask a question to be polite. They take a genuine interest and then they ask again and then they ask again.

   23. WCWarren Cass1:04:03

       That's why I'll, I'll quote Buddha. "If your mouth is open, you're not learning."

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04:09

       Very fair point. Very fair point. So we've had a look at how we can interpret what, uh, category someone else, um, would fall into so that they can, you can gear your use of language towards that. What are the things that you can do yourself after asking questions in terms of body language, in terms of dress, in terms of eye, uh, eye contact, word usage? What are the things that you can do to give the, the best impression of yourself face-to-face?

   25. WCWarren Cass1:04:42

       So, um, so we, we talk, talk about getting into rapport with somebody, and there's, um, there's a, a number of different ways of getting into rapport, uh, but let's start with the physiology. So r- rapport is that kind of ac-, that, that time of connection with somebody where, you know, you're starting to build trust. Um, so from a physiology point of view, uh, simple things like, um, blinking and breathing at the same pace. On a subconscious level, you know, people-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:05:10

       Is that easy to, is that easy to do?

   27. WCWarren Cass1:05:11

       Um, well, do you know the, the key with all of these things is if you, if you force it, uh, and you're obvious with it, it feels like manipulation and it will have the opposite effect. It will, it will turn somebody off. But if-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:05:21

       Yeah. Breaks down, breaks down the fourth wall.

   29. WCWarren Cass1:05:23

       Yeah. But if you, if you, if you come in, um, to a, a situation with somebody and you genuinely just want to try and be synchronized, um, that's, that's, that's a different thing altogether. In fact, the biggest way of, you know, I'm gonna tell you a few things about rapport now, but actually the biggest way of, of, um, building rapport with somebody is when you're asking all of those great questions we just talked about, genuinely listen to their answer. You know, if you're really listening to somebody, you'll naturally fall into rapport with them anyway. Um, in fact, I was at, um, uh, a, an exhibition in London called The Best You. Big shout out to Bernardo Moya who, who runs that event-

   30. CWChris Williamson1:05:58

       (laughs)
6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:19

   (laughs) …

   1. WCWarren Cass1:15:00

      at using language. He would, he would say something like, um, "You, like me, believe it's important for us to have a robust economy." Well, the embedded command there is, "you like me."

   2. CWChris Williamson1:15:11

      (laughs)

   3. WCWarren Cass1:15:11

      You know, whatever he said, whatever he said beyond that, he was basically saying, "You, like me, believe," um, and the, "you like me" is, was, uh, with enough pause, and f- for the command to actually sink in on a subconscious level.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:15:25

      I'd never, I'd never even noticed that, but I can, I can literally picture that, um, I can picture him saying that and pointing at the screen.

   5. WCWarren Cass1:15:32

      He was, he was clearly trained in things like NLP. Uh, his, the way his body language, the way he, he... Sometimes you could see through it, but actually most of the time he did it very naturally. Um, so he'd clearly been trained or he was just a very natural at it. But remember, you know, NLP in itself, its origins come from modeling the behavior of people who are good at what they, what they do.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:15:53

      Well, it's, yeah, it's, it's trying to, it's trying to recreate someone who naturally has that good rapport building, I suppose. Are there any other NLP, um, tricks or, or, um, solutions that people can implement? Obviously, hopefully not ones that are going to, uh, be too conceited or, (laughs) or spurious, but yeah, ones that, uh, that people could use to, to assist them when they're trying to build rapport?

Episode duration: 1:42:07