How To Read Behaviour Like An FBI Agent | Robin Dreeke

1. 0:00 – 5:59

   Robin Dreeke’s path: Naval Academy, Marines, and 21 years in FBI counterintelligence

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hi, friends. Today my guest is Robin Dreek, and he is the ex-head of the FBI's Behavioral Science Division. Now that sounds like an incredibly secretive and exciting job to have, and it really is. Today's discussion takes us through Robin's 21-year in-field career, including when he was in Manhattan on 9/11. He was out for coffee with his friend as the first plane struck the North Tower, and then back on the 25th floor of his department when the second plane hit. Apart from that, we're also going to learn the verbal and non-verbal cues that both you can use to help encourage trust and make your communication with others more effective, and also to be able to detect deception in other people. Robin really is the real deal. Uh, i- it's evident that he has a very terrifying and wide-ranging skill set of personal and interpersonal communication. Um, I- I'm super happy to have him on. I- I'm not going to pontificate anymore. Please welcome Robin Dreek. Oh, yeah, P.S., uh, we did have some connection issues during this episode. Uh, I promise that any of the cuts I made weren't due to Robin giving away national secrets. (laughs) And also the irony of a podcast about communication being beset with communication problems is not lost. But there may be a couple of jumps here and there, so just bear that in mind. (upbeat music) So Robin, is this the moment where the FBI burst in through the door of my bedroom and tell me that we need to stop this interview?

   2. RDRobin Dreeke2:03

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson2:03

      Is that when this happens?

   4. RDRobin Dreeke2:05

      No, 'cause I duck and weave really well. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson2:08

      (laughs) Yeah. And you're on the other side of the screen, so you're gonna be fine. Well, anyway, thank you very much for coming on. Welcome to Modern Wisdom. It's a pleasure to have you here.

   6. RDRobin Dreeke2:16

      Thanks, uh, thanks for having me. I'm excited about it as well.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:18

      It's gonna be a great, great conversation. So can you tell the listeners at home what your job roles were please?

   8. RDRobin Dreeke2:26

      Sure. Uh, so I'll kinda give you a chronology, um, from the beginning to the end without taking a million, uh, million, million, uh, minutes to do this-

   9. CWChris Williamson2:35

      Yeah.

   10. RDRobin Dreeke2:35

       ... uh, just 'cause it's not boring. But i- it's good to frame the background of where I came from to where I arrived and where I'm still going to, and that is, so, uh, my background is I graduated from the United States Naval Academy here in Annapolis, Maryland, and from there went on to become a Marine Corps officer, and from there I joined the FBI. And I joined the FBI in 1997 and worked counterintelligence for my entire career. So I was assigned to the New York field office in Manhattan. From there I went to Norfolk, Virginia. From Norfolk, Virginia, I went into management, so I went up to, to the J. Edgar Hoover Building here in Washington, DC. Um, also during out my entire career I worked Russian, so that's kind of the, the nouveau thing these days, although for 21 years no one was listening to me. Um-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:16

       (laughs)

   12. RDRobin Dreeke3:17

       (laughs) And so, uh, and so when I started running behavioral ana- you know, the, the program at headquarters, through my time in New York before I got there, I got on our behavioral analysis program for counterintelligence. And, and what the behavioral analysis program is ... And a lot of people know about the profilers and the behavioral analysis units from things like Criminal Minds and movies like that. Those are the criminal guys, the guys that work on criminal cases. My team, we worked nothing but counterintelligence cases. And my team's whole strategy all the time was how were we going to create a good, healthy engagement with another human being, whether you're trying to recruit a spy, talk to someone, interview someone. Whatever it is is we were always strategizing engagements. And so from FBI headquarters, uh, I, I eventually escaped, thank God, because I'm not a, I'm not a headquarters guy I realized, and they asked me to go down to Quantico where I taught, um, counterintelligence interviewing and source recruiting and things like that. And then I took over our behavioral team as the head of it back in 2010-ish and I ran it for three or four years until sequestration, which was a big budget thing we had, eliminated my team and a bunch of things. And so I went back down to the street and I worked (clears throat) as an agent on the street working counterintelligence for my last couple years before I retired. So yeah, my entire career has been nothing about, um, trying to recruit spies, catching spies, talking to sources, all ... Nothing but intel all the time.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:41

       Right. I mean, that sounds like the stuff that, um, novels are made of, right?

   14. RDRobin Dreeke4:46

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson4:46

       It's a lot of si- kind of the typical spy stuff-

   16. RDRobin Dreeke4:48

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson4:48

       ... it sounds like. The, the proper James Bond shit.

   18. RDRobin Dreeke4:52

       It is, it is. You know, it's truly funny, and I actually ... You know, you being in the UK is really great. I, I have a saying, uh, especially when I was in New York, "I love w- love working with the Queen," because, (laughs) we, we worked with MI5 and MI6 a lot, and uh, I love them a lot because their funding was always better than ours. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson5:08

       (laughs)

   20. RDRobin Dreeke5:08

       And they're great hosts. Ver- very great hosts. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson5:11

       That's awesome. Well, I, you know, I think the, the Brits are, are, are pretty well-renowned for the fact that we have good tea, and, you know, the weather's not so good, but everything else is-

   22. RDRobin Dreeke5:19

       That wasn't what we were, that wasn't what we were drinking. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson5:21

       Yeah, I bet it wasn't. Um, so you've mentioned there some, you know ... The New York field office in Manhattan and the J. Edgar Hoover Building, those are places that I really only know as references from movies. Um-

   24. RDRobin Dreeke5:33

       Sure.

   25. CWChris Williamson5:34

       But th- that sounds like a sort of place where there's an awful lot going on, a pretty big hub of activity I'm gonna guess.

   26. RDRobin Dreeke5:41

       Yeah. Um, but, you know, I always ... You know, I'm always ... I mean, just think about this. People are generally under-impressed with their own jobs. It's, you know, because-

   27. CWChris Williamson5:50

       (laughs) Very true.

   28. RDRobin Dreeke5:50

       It's always, it's always the outside optic. You know, for me it was my job. Basically your job was to build relationships and build trust.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:56

       Yeah.I got you.

2. 5:59 – 9:16

   Why “Type A” fails at recruiting: counterintelligence as the hardest sales job

   1. RDRobin Dreeke5:59

      And, and so what was interesting was, you know, a lot of people ... So, you know, I wound up writing a bunch of articles, and, uh, wrote a couple books. I got another one coming out this we- year. And my, my intro to whatever I'm doing, a speech, a talk, you know, podcast or, uh, even in my writing, it always starts out with me kind of laying out that background of mine, which says, "Wow, this guy is a type A hard-charging guy."

   2. CWChris Williamson6:22

      Okay.

   3. RDRobin Dreeke6:23

      And I'll say, "Absolutely right. The problem is, if you want to recruit spies, you're going to fail majestically with that beh- with that kind of behavior profile." (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson6:32

      Wow, okay. So t- take us, take us through what that means and why that's the case.

   5. RDRobin Dreeke6:37

      Sure. Well, and, and this is how I really, uh, relate it to business with all the companies I work with, because I, I called my job the most challenging one, um, in sales, because it was literally the toughest sales job I think anyone could have. And that's what I have always, when I transition and I talk to a lot of groups outside the FBI, and obviously that's all I talk to now, um, this is how I line it out. Because l- when I was in New York and my job is to recruit spies, here's what that meant. Um, first of all, you know, I'm, I'm selling a concept to someone from a foreign country, and the concept I'm selling is that helping the United States is really a good idea. (laughs) And even though it's might not be in your best interest or your country, it's in the best interest of my country. So first of all, I'm selling a concept, an idea, that helping and cooperating with me is a great idea. Um, so that's, that's, so that's my product. Um, the second most challenging thing now is it's actually illegal for me as FBI to walk up and talk to a foreign diplomat, because all the spies are foreign diplomats under diplomatic cover. And by treaty, it's actually illegal for me to approach them. So if my client that I'm trying to sell this product to, one, doesn't really care for my product, two, uh, it's illegal for me to actually contact them about my product. Um, that, that's your first challenge. And-

   6. CWChris Williamson7:51

      There's a couple of, couple of big barriers there.

   7. RDRobin Dreeke7:54

      Yeah, really are. And, and the other thing, so if you can't talk to them directly, you're gonna maybe try to sell through third parties, you know, some of their contacts. And, you know, in law enforcement, I, I love to say, you know, this, this analogy, 'cause most people that work in law enforcement, they see reason why people have to talk to them, they've done something illegal. (laughs) So there's a compulsion. Well, when you work in the world of counterintelligence, very r- rarely have people done something illegal. You know, take spies, for instance, you know, it doesn't matter what country they're in. All they're doing is collecting intelligence, and what generally is intelligence? Well, it's actually reading things in the newspaper, hearing things on the news or, or, or looking at a blog or something like this, and so you get in- information. And now your next job is, is to source that information to people in the know. So say they read something in the newspaper, they read a blog, they see a posting. Well, now they're gonna go to like the president of a clear the funds contractor, another diplomat, someone from a think tank that they can say, "What do you think about this?" Now they get their opinion on it. Well, now that opinion has sourcing, now sourcing becomes intelligence. And none of that's illegal. And so there's no compulsion for them to want to talk to me, because they've done nothing illegal. It's illegal for me to talk to them. They don't want to buy my product. And now I want to talk to people that are around them, and the people around them that they're talking to, they're not doing anything illegal either.

   8. CWChris Williamson9:16

      Wow.

3. 9:16 – 11:20

   The mentor who ‘won the lottery’ 14 times: humility as a relationship weapon

   1. RDRobin Dreeke9:16

      And so ... Yeah, so what I quickly realized, you know, when you're in your late 20s and you have this hardcore type A personality, is if you approach people with that kind of personality, that don't have any reason why they should want to talk to you, you're going to get shut down really fast. (laughs) Um, and so that was my background. So luckily for me, though, I was on a squad of people, um, that were my Jedi masters, you know. One in particular, his name is John, you know, he had this art form down. And, and just to give you an example, you know, in my line of work, or my previous line of work, getting, you know, actually recruiting a spy from another country to cooperate with us and give us all the jewels to the kingdom, it's- it's like hitting lotto. It's that rare, and it's that beneficial when it does, you know, or, or winning, you know, winning sweepstakes.

   2. CWChris Williamson10:01

      Yep.

   3. RDRobin Dreeke10:01

      Um, and when you do, it's- it's extremely beneficial. So I always viewed my job every day as like buying a lotto ticket. I create operations that give me opportunity to, to hit lotto-

   4. CWChris Williamson10:11

      Yeah.

   5. RDRobin Dreeke10:12

      ... or, or hit that sweepstakes. And, you know, unbeknownst to me, one of the guys on, on that I was working with that became my, my mentor guide and, and really my best friend, uh, he had hit lotto 14 times in his career.

   6. CWChris Williamson10:22

      Oh my God. (laughs)

   7. RDRobin Dreeke10:24

      And ... Yeah, no, no kidding. And, and it was really dumbfounding, because I never knew that for years, just because, uh, one of the, one of his great tenets of life is he lived with great humility and humbleness.

   8. CWChris Williamson10:35

      Mm-hmm.

   9. RDRobin Dreeke10:35

      He never made it about him. His desk at work had no I love me trophies or posters on it. Um, um, it was always about everyone else but himself. And that was really the key. You know, I started modeling my behavior, I tried to, after him. And then when I start- when people started asking me to teach this, that was the first time I actually had to take my friend John's art form of interpersonal communication and make it a paint by numbers so it could be replicated.

   10. CWChris Williamson10:58

       Yeah.

   11. RDRobin Dreeke10:58

       And that's, and that's where all this started getting born.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:02

       That's so fascinating, the, I mean, it, it very quickly goes away from being luck and goes on to skill when you win the lottery 14 times, right?

   13. RDRobin Dreeke11:11

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson11:12

       Um, so-

   15. RDRobin Dreeke11:13

       But there's no luck involved with this.

   16. CWChris Williamson11:14

       Yeah, for sure. (laughs)

   17. RDRobin Dreeke11:15

       And, and, and it's full point to ... Go ahead.

   18. CWChris Williamson11:18

       Did you have a background in-

   19. RDRobin Dreeke11:19

       No, go ahead.

4. 11:20 – 12:43

   Field experience first, science later: learning organizational psychology to explain what worked

   1. CWChris Williamson11:20

      ... psychology or in, um, a- a- any sort of behavioral sciences before you went to the FBI?

   2. RDRobin Dreeke11:28

      No. Um, actually, you know, my background was leadership from the Marine Corps, um, without realizing I was getting this art form better by the time I'd gotten out, um, came in the FBI, and actually it was very helpful, because I had all these ... I probably had about 15, 15, 17 years of field experience doing this before I actually worked on my graduate work in organizational psychology. And so I started seeing the science behind why everything I was doing in the field was working.

   3. CWChris Williamson11:56

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RDRobin Dreeke11:56

      So instead of learning, so in- instead of having the education first and then trying to apply it in limited situations, I had...... you know, over 21 years of experience of, of living this, and now is learning the, what I call lings behind these actions, behind it. So it actually was more reinforcing and made a hell of a lot more sense to me afterwards, and so it was a combining of the two. Matter of fact, when I would assemble a team to do a consultation for someone in the country, typically I put three, at least two or three case agents that had operational experience, like I did, and I'd put them with, you know, an, one of my organizational psychologists that actually could just validate the science is solid by what it is we're trying to do.

   5. CWChris Williamson12:38

      Uh, so they'd, uh, collaboration of brains and brawn kind of to a degree, I suppose.

5. 12:43 – 14:34

   Human predictability: everyone acts in their perceived best interest

   1. RDRobin Dreeke12:43

      It's always. You know, and at the root of everything that we're always trying to do is, and someone once asked me too, you know, "So how do you recruit a spy?" I said, "Well, first of all, you don't." And it's like with any individual, and, and this is sales as well. You know, while you're trying ... All human beings are trying to do is they're trying to be affiliated and validated by people, and ultimately human beings are exceptionally predictable. And here's how they're predictable. I can always take at, at face value that everyone will always act in their own best interests. We're genetically coded for it, we're biologically coded for it, and now my job is to figure out what you think your best interests are. And one way we do that is, and this is where we do all the time, is I have to figure out what your priorities are, your needs, wants, dreams, aspirations, personal, professional, long term, short term. And now once I figure out what your priorities are, and I have resources that'll serve those priorities, we're gonna align. And that's, and that's where sales comes in, and that's where collaboration comes in. That's where relationships build. And so what you're doing is when, you know, whether you're talking to a new potential client or you're trying to recruit a spy, all I'm trying to figure out is what are your priorities, what are your goals and objectives, and what resources do I have to get you to that point.

   2. CWChris Williamson13:54

      So what-

   3. RDRobin Dreeke13:54

      That's all it is.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:54

      ... what do you want and what can I give you?

   5. RDRobin Dreeke13:57

      Yeah, absolutely. You know-

   6. CWChris Williamson13:58

      Oh, awesome.

   7. RDRobin Dreeke13:59

      ... with, with, with full transparency, you know, the biggest thing too is, you know, I'm, I am 100% anti-manipulation or deception or pretexts or any of these things, 'cause people can pick up on manipulation or attempts at manipulation or coercion very rapidly. You know, it gives you that creepy feeling, you know, when you meet someone or, you know, bad sales guy trying to sell you something, you pick up on it immediately. And so the best thing you can do is don't have deception. I, I refuse to lie to you or deceive or use subterfuge in any way, because it'll blow trust, and once trust is blown, just give up. (laughs)

6. 14:34 – 20:20

   The ‘Five Steps’ to building trust: end goals, then discovery and context

   1. CWChris Williamson14:34

      Amazing. So take us through the basics of the behavioral science as, as you were applying it in the field, if you would.

   2. RDRobin Dreeke14:43

      Sure. So my, my five steps that I realized that I was doing it, and here's, well, here's where it came from. Um, I was asked to do an article right before, uh, I got out, and it was on, you know, what do you, what, what does counterintelligence do? What does your team do? And I, I'd never really thought about it before. Um, and I ... 'Cause again when you live something, you just kind of do and act. And so I, I took that step back and I, I gave myself that optic of, what am I actually doing in all these behavioral assessments? What I was actually doing in all these cases throughout my career, you know, whether it was a recruitment operation, an interview, a double agent operation, false flags, I mean, all the fun hooky spookie spy stuff.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:24

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RDRobin Dreeke15:25

      And what I, and what I quickly realized was all I was ever doing was strategizing trust, because I was always trying to get and to hopefully have someone for move from point A to point B. Hopefully point B would be a place that, that we could collaborate. And the, and the only way someone is going to move from A to B and collaborate with you is through trust. And so when I took that step back and realized, wow, in everything I'd ever done in my entire career and then for the larger optic of my entire life, and it's what we do as human beings, we're always strategizing trust in relationships. And so I broke it down to five really simple steps, uh, to what I call the elusive obvious. You know, so as you said, so here's, here's the process. It's really simple. First, what's your goal? What is it you're trying to achieve? Um, and then the second part of that, so, so why should they want to? You know, why should they want to be interviewed by you? Why should they want to collab- cooperate with you? You know, why should they want to do anything? And at first, you know, that's as, as surface as I got with it, thinking to myself, "Oh, it's a very short term goal." But then I asked myself, "Well, why do I want to do that goal? Where am I trying to go with this?" And ultimately in my work, I was trying to protect national security, and ultimately I, I came out with what I call the ends goals and means goals. And interviewing someone or recruiting someone or selling a product, that's really a means to the end.

   5. CWChris Williamson16:43

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RDRobin Dreeke16:43

      And at the end goal, what, you know, whether you're just trying to sell a product or trying to honor the mission statement of the company, me, I was trying to honor and protect the national security of my country. And what was really fascinating was so many people and things have input on, on those means goals. You know, there's a lot of relationships that go into is someone willing to cooperate and trust you? So what I started focusing was on the end goals first. So I reversed it. And the ends goals for me are very, very simple and easy. My number one goal in every single engagement I have, one, is a healthy professional relationship, 'cause without a healthy professional relationship, everything else will fall apart. I, I, I have become so adamant about focusing on relationships above all else that, um, I'm (laughs) ... I, I, I preach it at every opportunity I get, because, you know, uh, the greatest analogy I always have whether I have a group of 1,000 people or two people, I, I, I can always say I can guarantee you not one person is sitting in this room as successful as you are without a relationship with at least 1, 2, 10 people-

   7. CWChris Williamson17:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RDRobin Dreeke17:41

      ... because nothing can happen from that. So I always focus on the relationships first. Second, under that, my next goal is open honest communication and transparency, 'cause you cannot have a healthy relationship without that open honest communication and transparency. And my third anchor, my third end goal I always focus on is I make myself an available resource for the prosperity of others with no expectation of reciprocity. And here's how that breaks down. Available resource for others. I once offered someone help and he thought it was condescending.... that I was offering help. He thought I, thought I was better than he was, and so he took offense to it. So that's why I have available resources. And s- because human beings do not like to be looked down upon. They want to be treated as equal, they want to have, be affiliated and valued. So I have... I offer resources for their prosperity. Prosperity is a very open term. Prosperity according to what they think prosperity is. And the s- and the last part of this is no expectation of reciprocity. In other words, I am being willing to give my resources to you without an expectation of reciprocity. In other words, I'm not trying to do this to get something. Again, as soon as you do that, you start going into the realm of manipulation. Shields go up and trust goes out the window.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:47

      Mm.

   10. RDRobin Dreeke18:48

       So those, so those are my thir- three anchors, and that's step one. As long as I get set on those and I move forward, then we're s- great. So step two, this is easy. Discover their priorities, their needs, wants, dreams and aspirations, short-term, long-term, personal, professional. How do they see prosperity and success from their point of view? Because if you don't talk in terms of their priorities, you're wasting your voice, 'cause everyone o- will listen to you if you're talking in terms of what's important to them. So step two is about them. Step three, understand their context. How do they see the world through their particular optic without judging it? In other words, what's their age, their demographic, their ethnicity, their gender, um, socioeconomic status, eh, you know, all these things play into how people s- see world through their particular optic. And to... That's generally also where we find places of affiliation and that we can build upon. Um, one of my favorite questions when dealing with, uh, lots of folks internationally is, you know, "Would you mind sharing a favorite family holiday you had growing up?" And again, you don't have to have the same favorite family holiday, but what you have is a favorite family holiday. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson19:50

       Yeah.

   12. RDRobin Dreeke19:50

       Everyone has something they remember from their childhood. And when you share those kinds of things, "Well, look, I had a childhood just like yours. We had something we enjoyed. We had a tradition, we had a meal, we have tastes, we have flavors, we have music." All these things are where we build those affiliations and we build that tribe. Because ancient tribal man, you know, a tribe of 30, 40, or 50, it was the first form of survival. If you were not part of a tribe, the likelihood of you passing on your genetic coding to others was slim to none. And so we're constantly seeking to be affiliated with meaningful people in our lives and be valued by them. And so

7. 20:20 – 27:11

   Step 4 mindset: suspend ego, avoid arguing context, validate deeply, be generous

   1. RDRobin Dreeke20:20

      this is the process by which we're doing that. So that's the third step. Fourth step is to actually... This is where you gotta make sure you're talking in terms of them. Wanna suspend your ego, and that is, you know, you gotta put your own thoughts and opinions aside. You gotta talk in terms of them and theirs, and never argue context. In other words, if they have a certain point of view that you don't agree with, um, what's it going to cost you to not argue it?

   2. CWChris Williamson20:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RDRobin Dreeke20:44

      Second, be non-judgmental, you know, because people... Uh, here's another guarantee in life. If you start judging them verbally or non-verbally, I guarantee you their shields are going up, 'cause you're basically saying, "Hey, you're not part of my tribe." And so people get defensive, and they'll get shields up. Honoring reason. And honoring reason's really where you wanna make sure that everything you're saying and doing is congruent with what it is you're trying to achieve. Keep that thoughtful mind engaged. Don't get emotionally hijacked where you're gonna let your emotions interrupt what's going on between your brain and your mouth. And so honoring reason's... I, I'm always asking myself, "Is what I'm about to do or say going to help or hinder what it is I'm trying to do?" And ultimately, remember what I'm trying to do is create a healthy relationship. Um, fourth is validate others. You know, validation, this is just seeking to understand at a deep l- level as possible. It's not saying you necessarily agree with them, although agreeing with them can be validating. But just seek to understand, especially if you have a different political point of view, um, on religion, gover- anything it is. You know, it's not that you're seeking... It's not that you're placating them or pacifying them. No, you're seeking to understand how it is they have that certain point of view. The key here is you have to be congruent with, you know, what's in your heart and what's coming out of your mouth. Because if your ver- if your body language and your verbals are incongruent, you just look like you're, you know, you're full of it. Um, so you have to actually be honest in- internally about trying to understand them. And finally, uh, the fifth step of, of... step four is be generous. Be generous with your time and be generous with your resources. And then finally, fifth step is craftiness engagement. You know, how are you gonna put all this together to have a great, meaningful, you know, genuine, sincere conversation and dialogue? And so to do that, the first thing I always do is I'm going to state a s- very specific, um, validation of a strength, attribute, or action that I've witnessed. In other words, I'm going to just always be seeking the greatness in others where their strengths are, so I can always start out with a conversation about, "Hey, when you did this last week and had such a great result in this situation, would you mind sharing with me how you came up with that? Would you be willing to share it with others?" And from there, we just have a great dialogue and conversation. There's many other steps to that, but those are the five basic, you know, steps I use, what I call the elusive obvious, like how do you f- form a relationship of trust and, uh, health. That's it.

   4. CWChris Williamson22:58

      I get it. So it sounds like steps one through four are, um, setting the scene and coming up with what you're going to say, and then five is delivery. Is that fair to say?

   5. RDRobin Dreeke23:08

      Yes. Absolutely. And then-

   6. CWChris Williamson23:12

      Okay. And it seems like... I think, and like-

   7. RDRobin Dreeke23:14

      Oh, go on. Sorry, go ahead.

   8. CWChris Williamson23:15

      ... based on what I thought about behavioral analysis, I thought that it would be all step five. That's probably my, um, (clears throat) romanticizing a little bit of the, of the spy industry, and then a lack of understanding of just how much stuff probably goes on behind the scenes with counterintelligence. And that the, the tip of the spear is exactly just that. It's the, it's the tiny little bit at the end that delivers the, the message or the blow or whatever it might be, as opposed to all of the work that's gone beh- before it.

   9. RDRobin Dreeke23:47

      You know, you did a great job summarizing it, and, and you couldn't be more right. I mean, it really comes down to you have to really know people, and how do you know people? A- a- and this is... This goes back to a lesson I learned really early on in my career, uh, in the Marine Corps. I remember I got ranked last out of all these other officers (laughs) , and very humbling moment. And (laughs) I, I go up to the, the guy who's berating me and I said, "All right, what am I doing wrong?" as well, "You just ne- need to make it about everyone else, not yourself, and b- and be a better leader." And I was like-Well, I thought I was doing that. What the hell are you talking about, make it about everyone but myself? How do you do that? What's, what's the methodolo- how do you make a conversation about everyone else but yourself? I didn't understand it. This process, this is exactly this. This is how you make it about the other person. You- you're finding out their priorities, you're finding out their context, you're... and then how do you put all these things together to talk in terms of them? And, you know, you add these four things I love to throw into every statement I make, is one, I seek their thoughts and opinions, I talk in terms of their priorities, I validate them nonjudgmentally, and I give them choices. When I do one of those four things in everything I say or write, that entire conversation is completely about them.

   10. CWChris Williamson24:53

       I understand. And I'm going to guess that the science will say that that plays into a sense of trust and safety and focus on them as an individual, which I'll presume will probably lower barriers and stuff like that.

   11. RDRobin Dreeke25:10

       Absolutely. So here's the science behind it. Um, we know this anecdotally because when you, you know, when, when you say, "Hey," when someone's talking about things that are important to me, I love listening to it. Um, and we've all experienced those moments where we've had these conversations where you said you had to go in five minutes but you're, like, you're there for 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes longer because you loved the conversation. Well, it's because they were validating you. So the science behind it, they, they did a, a great study at, uh, Harvard back in the spring of 2012 where they actually wired people's brains up, and what they found was on average people spend about 40% of their day sharing their own thoughts, opinions, and ideas that they have. And what they're doing is they're testing the environment around them saying, "Hey, here's what I think in a... Here's what I think, here's what I think, here's what I think." Because we're seeking constantly to see if we can affiliate with tribes and affiliate with people. And what they found is when people were sharing their thoughts and opinions and ideas, and those thoughts and opinions and ideas were being validated by others, dopamine was being released in the brain.

   12. CWChris Williamson26:08

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RDRobin Dreeke26:08

       So the pleasure centers, you know, were firing s- seratonin (24:00) , oxytocin in the bloodstream. Our pleasure centers are constantly firing when we're being accepted nonjudgmentally for those thoughts and opinions and ideas that we have because we want to be affiliated with meaningful groups and organizations for survival. So that's the science behind why when you structure a conversation dialogue and relationship like this, it's magic. And it's, it's... And it... The greatest thing too, it's totally genuine. There's no... You know, I'm, I'm anti-verbal judo and how to win an argument. I, I just... There's no strategy on how to do that. It's just how do you get to understand a person and make it about them?

   14. CWChris Williamson26:43

       Okay.

   15. RDRobin Dreeke26:43

       Piece of cake. (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson26:44

       I get it. I- I get it. So the- the first four steps that are quite conceptual, I think, must m- require a lot of research about the person, but to me just seem like spending time under tension. Like, work out what it is that the person wants and how you can speak their language and give them choices and, and, and don't judge. But the fifth one I imagine requires a little bit more skillfulness.

8. 27:11 – 31:06

   Step 5 delivery: crafting the engagement with validation, questions, choices, and specificity

   1. RDRobin Dreeke27:11

      Um, well, here's how I put it together. Here's how I generally structure, um, my... And this, again, I don't have my notes in front of me, going off the top of my head. What I generally do is, again, step one is I mak- I, I, I make a very specific statement, a validation of a strength, attribute, or action. Now, that's if I know what one of those strengths are. If I don't and I'm gonna be talking to a stranger I do a phone call, the first thing I'm gonna validate is their time, because human beings do not have to give me their time. So I'm gonna be extremely deferential and gracious for the time that they can give me, and offer... also willing to walk away if they don't want to engage me, because in order to make this conversation about them, you have to be willing to accept their denials of your time. So I start out with that. Next, I'm gonna seek their thoughts and opinions about their priorities. That's step two of my... how I strategize. Now, if I don't know what their priorities happen to be at this point, because again, I haven't had any research, because I do li- I, I mean, we do this in sales all the time, we do lots of cold calls.

   2. CWChris Williamson28:04

      Yeah.

   3. RDRobin Dreeke28:04

      But the... But if you don't know what their priorities are, here's a general priority of every single human being on this planet: safety, security, and prosperity for them, themselves, and their families, because that's survival. And so public safety is one that I'll always go to for the things I was doing. But safety, security, and prosperity. I work with financial companies all the time that sell insurance. Well, safety, security, and prosperity for them and their families, that's a priority. So again, if I don't know what one specific of their priorities are yet, one that I can ask them about and see if... and, and seek their thoughts and opinions on is, is safety, security, and prosperity for you and your family an important thing to you? And so that's step two. Uh, step, um... The third way I do this, uh, next is I'm gonna validate those thoughts, opinions, ideas, um, that they just shared with me and validation. Again, if I don't understand exactly what they're saying, I'll dive a little deeper so I can get a better understanding. Now most of the time what we're trying to do is we're trying to inspire people to listen to our thought, uh, thoughts and opinions, ideas. Uh, in other words, what we're trying to impart on them, and I use that word inspire because that's really critical. Uh, something I realized a number of years ago is that there's a big difference between trying to convince someone of something they want to listen. Um, because really you really can't convince anyone of anything because that's about you imparting what you want them to listen to, rather than... Rather, I think of how can I inspire them to want to listen to me? Because if I'm thinking of inspiring you to action, if I'm thinking of inspiring you to listen or do something, in order to inspire you to do it, it's got to be completely about you and your idea. So how do I inspire you to listen to my idea? This is easy. I'm going to ask you your thoughts and opinions and ideas about my thoughts and opinions and ideas.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:38

      (laughs)

   5. RDRobin Dreeke29:38

      In other words, in o- uh, in oth-... You know, say someone has a certain political point of view and I say, "No, no, no, I don't agree with that. Here's what I think." That's me trying to convince you of my point of view and you're not gonna listen. As opposed to I- I... They say the same thing and I say, "Wow, I never heard it really quite put that way before. Help me understand. How did you come up with that?" And they share their thoughts and opinions and ideas and I say, "Wow, I appreciate that. I was curious. What do you think about this?" And now I'm seeking their thoughts and opinions about my thoughts and opinions.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:04

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RDRobin Dreeke30:05

      Everyone always wants to plant seeds with people by, you know, giving them thoughts. You don't plant seeds with people by telling them what you think. You plant seeds with people by asking them what they think. And so that's wh- that's where this part of the process is. I ask them their thoughts and opinions about my ideas.Um, finally, well not finally, next I now em- ask them, hey, I understand there are priorities, so I've talked to them in terms of my priorities. Now I offer them choices of overlapping priorities. You know, "I heard you say this, this, and this, and I thought this and this and this. Do you think we might be able to work on maybe X, Y, and Z?" And now you're empowering them with choice. And then finally, if appropriate, I empower them with choice about remaining in contact or of assistance. That's it. That's- that's- that's the fifth step. That's how I, that's how- how I line it out.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:45

      Okay.

   9. RDRobin Dreeke30:45

      And so when I'm talking to someone live, I do it that way, or if I'm going written, I just make sure that at least every one of those things is in every single statement I make.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:53

       And now you've got yourself a spy. Now you've caught a spy in there-

   11. RDRobin Dreeke30:56

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson30:56

       ... that- that given up all of the state secrets and you've got the Wi-Fi password and everything.

   13. RDRobin Dreeke31:02

       Only- only if it's in their best interest to do so. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson31:05

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. RDRobin Dreeke31:05

       Yes.

9. 31:06 – 37:39

   Fast intelligence gathering: intentional ‘missteps’ and why direct questions can backfire

   1. CWChris Williamson31:06

      Fair point. So, I wanted to ask about, um, specific techniques that you guys use in the field when time is of the essence.

   2. RDRobin Dreeke31:15

      Gosh.

   3. CWChris Williamson31:15

      So, obviously when we're talking about this kind of a situation, it's a, I- I'm gonna guess there'll be a word for it, like a long- a- a longer game, um, where you have time to prep, but there must be time, you know, you were- you were in the service. I don't know what particular, um, department you would have been in at, uh, at 9/11, but you know, there's periods of time-

   4. RDRobin Dreeke31:37

      Yep.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:37

      ... where y- y- you

   6. RDRobin Dreeke36:23

      ... (laughs) it's a guarantee, you know. Um, whether you're trying to gain a date of birth of someone, you know, just say, "Hey, I'm pretty good at this. What are you, born in June?" They'll go, "No, July." "Oh, the 15th?" "No, the 22nd." I mean, and so right there, I got their date of birth without even asking a question.

   7. CWChris Williamson36:36

      (laughs)

   8. RDRobin Dreeke36:36

      I made a statement.

   9. CWChris Williamson36:38

      Yeah, I can play that through in my mind as well and my desire to correct you is, like, coming up as well.

   10. RDRobin Dreeke36:43

       Oh. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, by doing that, you get a lot of people's, you know, priorities, you start understanding their intentions, you know. So whatever tidbits of intelligence you've been, um, tasked with getting, you create a strategy about how you're gonna ask, make an intentional misstep and about that specific type of intelligence, 'cause most of the time when you are, are trying to gather information... And whether you're trying to do, you know, gather corporate information, you know, for o- you know, for takeovers or, you know, to outbid a client, you know, or whether you're trying to re- you know, cr- recruit information for spies, you don't want anyone else to be alerted to the things that you're looking for.

   11. CWChris Williamson37:18

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RDRobin Dreeke37:19

       'Cause the ga- I sa- as I said it earlier, if you ask them a question, I guarantee you they're gonna think about that question forever, it'll rattle around in their brain. So the, the trick is don't ask questions about the things that you care most about finding out about.

   13. CWChris Williamson37:31

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's planting a flag in the ground to identify what your priorities are, which is not, not necessarily what you were after. You wanted theirs.

10. 37:39 – 41:13

    Transparency beats tricks: building rapid trust and asking directly (with a real case example)

    1. RDRobin Dreeke37:39

       Right. Right. So, but I'll tell you, I... My earlier years, I was more into understanding and, and exercising that, and what I came to find out was, was I got better and better at getting that, the stronger the relationship and the trust was. So I will... I go for the rapid, as fast as possible trust, with full transparency, which, which gets that trust to that point, and then I just come right out and ask them what I want and I ask and tell them why I need it. And you'd be amazed at how much easier that is. (laughs)

    2. CWChris Williamson38:13

       Can you, can you give us, can you give us an example?

    3. RDRobin Dreeke38:17

       So, uh, I mean, I was, I mean, just probably my last couple of years before I retired, you know, we came up... and I won't give you exact details.

    4. CWChris Williamson38:23

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RDRobin Dreeke38:24

       Um, but we came up with a situation where we'd i- identified, uh, an emerging threat, you know, to public safety, and they said, "We need to find a source in this area." And I didn't know anyone, but I went to some of my, some of my guys that, you know, are my sources of information. I said, "Hey, we need someone in this area." They said, "I don't know," but because I had healthy relationships w- with them and they have healthy relationships with others, about two weeks later, one of my contacts brings me a potential guy. You know, doesn't int- you know, doesn't introduce me, but gives me his website, gives me an email address, and I was like, "Ah, this guy might be right up the, you know, right what we're looking for."

    6. CWChris Williamson38:58

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RDRobin Dreeke38:58

       And so, uh, what I did was, I looked at his industry, I looked at, you know, his background, and I strategized my, my... and I actually re- sent him an email. And in the email, I validated his time, like I said before. I sought his thoughts and opinions regarding this specific industry and the, and the threat it might have to public safety, but at the same time wanted to protect his industry from being shut down if something from public safety went wrong. In other words, I talked in terms of his priorities. I sought those thoughts and opinions, and I said, "Here's why it's important to public safety, you know, because we want to prevent X, Y, and Z." And I said, "Would you be willing to have a conversation about this? If not, please let me know and I'll leave you completely alone." Well, he, he called me within about, I think, 15 minutes, and I said, "Hey, um, Mr. So-and-So, you know, if you wouldn't mind..." And he goes, "Oh, I'd love to help out. Because of what you said, that it makes a lot of sense." I said, "Great. Would you mind if I signed you up as one of our sources and put you in the intelligence system and so that people can benefit from your thoughts and ideas so we can might protect those people?" And he goes, "Okay." And there you go. That's as easy as it is. It wasn't using any spy craft subterfuges, like, "Hey, here's how you can be a source and here's how you can help, you know, protect people." Again, what are, what are people's general priorities? Safety and protection of their, of themselves, their families, and their well-being.

    8. CWChris Williamson40:12

       Uh, uh, what I like about the approach that you're describing here is that it does come from a place of virtue. For the listeners who are regular, they'll know that we're big fans, and as far as I'm concerned, truth is a superpower. One of the main reasons that I like trying to tell the truth as much as I can, although I'm not always perfect at it, is that by telling the truth, you never have to remember what you said. The-

    9. RDRobin Dreeke40:33

       Absolutely. Yeah, well, I mean, I went through unders- uh, I went through undercover certification course, um, years ago, and, and they said the same thing, you know. Yo- you have only so many lies you can tell, and then you gotta keep tr- the more lies you tell about who you are, the more you gotta keep track of. Um, because once they're out of the bucket, you can't bring them back aga- again. And so I just got in the habit of not lying.

    10. CWChris Williamson40:54

        Mm-hmm.

    11. RDRobin Dreeke40:55

        And it was so much easier. I, I just don't lie. Now, if I can't share something with you, there's a big difference between lying and not sharing something. And if I can't share something with you that you wanna know, I apologize and tell you why I can't share, 'cause again, I have transparency.

    12. CWChris Williamson41:04

        Yeah. There's a difference between... As Sam Harris describes it in his book, Lying, he says there's a difference between lies of omission and lies of commission.

11. 41:13 – 46:11

    Receiving mode: why body language isn’t a lie detector and how to spot manipulation

    1. RDRobin Dreeke41:13

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson41:13

       And I think that's, uh, that's identified quite nicely there. So we've talked about being on broadcast. What about when you're on receive? Uh, there some strategies that people can use to identify, um, people that are untrustworthy or people that have an alternative agenda and... You know, you, you watch these story- uh, th- these, um, programs like Lie To Me and stuff like that, where you've got these-

    3. RDRobin Dreeke41:34

       Right.

    4. CWChris Williamson41:35

       ... incredibly proficient guys. For anyone who hasn't seen it, the, the main protagonist is able to detect a, uh, a modicum of disgust at his stepmother's death becau- and that means that he did it because his eyes flicked up into the left and all of this kind of crazy stuff. I'm gonna guess that the level of fidelity is not quite that high, but that there must be some, some sort of, uh, guys in the service who do have some pretty crazy skills like that.

    5. RDRobin Dreeke42:00

       So I, I'm very good friends with a few of them. One of my best friends is Joe Navaro, a world-renowned body language expert, and he will be the first to, to tell you as well, you... The best people in the world, including Jo- Joe, can only detect deception 50% of the time, 50% accuracy using non-verbal detection alone, 'cause it simply doesn't work. Because what you do is, if you're gonna use non-verbals, and I do, I u- and what you're looking for is, you're not looking for deceptive indicators, you're looking for stress indicators, 'cause lying is stressful. But also remembering negative thoughts and, uh, and events can be stressful as well. And so, our non-verbals will indicate comfort from stress. And so what I'm looking for, am I causing comfort or am I causing stress? Um, but again, that's a whole separate topic to get into. But when... So-... basically, a- as I heard you ask the question, I get this asked a lot too, "How do I, how do I make sure I'm not being taken advantage of, or, or I'm not being manipulated or attempt to be manipulated," correct?

    6. CWChris Williamson42:53

       Yes.

    7. RDRobin Dreeke42:54

       (smacks lips) This is, this one is really easy, 'cause I get this a lot. So I, I, someone will say to me, "So Robin, what do you do if someone's trying to manipulate you?" And my first response when someone asked me that the first time, it kind of befuddled me, 'cause I said to myself, "Wow, it's never happened." And they said, "Well, how does it never happen?" I said, "Well, this is easy, because if I'm always looking for a healthy relationship, he- and healthy relationships are bu- based on open, honest communication and transparency, if you were actually communicating something to me that I don't understand because there's omission or there's blank spaces, and I ask you a question for clarification, transparency, and you don't give it, I just stop engaging you, because you're obviously not looking for a healthy relationship. And it's okay with me." Again, I don't hold resentment against it. I just understand that, all right, y- your agenda is different than mine, and if I'm looking for transparency, you're not willing to give it, then I'm not willing to keep engaging with you. And so my-

    8. CWChris Williamson43:45

       Mm-hmm.

    9. RDRobin Dreeke43:45

       ... my only advice to people is, don't be afraid to ask clarifying questions. If you don't understand something, if people are talking fast or, or they're using words and terms or situations you don't quite understand, ask for clarification. Apologize, you know, self-deprecating humor, and ask for that clarification. If they can't give it to you, uh, I'm, I become skeptical of, of the, the priorities that they have, you know, and the goals that they have, that I don't think they're gonna be really congruent with what came out of their mouth. Uh, especially if someone gives you the, that creepy car salesman, you know, feeling, it's because they're, they're incongruent with the words that are coming out of their mouth, also what they're actually feeling toward you.

    10. CWChris Williamson44:24

        Yeah, I, I guess that's, that's kind of like the canary in the coal mine for all of this, right? If you, if there's just something that you don't understand, that's a byproduct of omission on their side or a lack of-

    11. RDRobin Dreeke44:36

        Yep.

    12. CWChris Williamson44:36

        ... uh, some sort of disjointedness within the conversation. And then that can be counteracted-

    13. RDRobin Dreeke44:41

        Yep.

    14. CWChris Williamson44:41

        ... by you asking, and then if the followup, it's like the, the, uh, uh, little hurdle that you're asking them to step over, and if they can't get over that hurdle, it's-

    15. RDRobin Dreeke44:49

        Right.

    16. CWChris Williamson44:50

        ... probably because th- they don't want to, I suppose.

    17. RDRobin Dreeke44:53

        Right. Uh, uh, you stated it perfectly, absolutely. So I just don't engage with, 'cause again, in that situation, I take people very specific, you know? It doesn't mean I can't trust them in another situation, but in this specific situation, the things that we're talking about, no, we're not gonna have a healthy engagement here. So I, I'll just disengage.

    18. CWChris Williamson45:10

        It sounds an awful lot like, um, being quite frank and quite upfront, like almost, not blase, but certainly, um, certainly very upfront and, and, and as transparent as you can be, both in terms of what you are trying to, uh, what you're trying to convey and what you do and don't understand, is forming a, quite a big basis here. And I suppose that the foundation for a, a relationship of trust is truth, uh, in two directions, right?

    19. RDRobin Dreeke45:42

        And openness, yeah, you know, 'cause as you said, very frank, and, and it is, it can be very frank. But at the same time though, it's very, uh, extremely cordial, because it's always about them, you know? There's never me in- it's never me inflicting my thoughts and opinions on you about you. I don't judge you, I don't say, "Hey, I'm just being honest. Here's what, you're an ass." You know, that's, that's, (laughs) not the thing you do.

    20. CWChris Williamson46:03

        Mm-hmm.

    21. RDRobin Dreeke46:03

        Um, it's, it's about being, being frank and open about what my intentions are and trying to understand yours, um, 'cause that's, that's it.

12. 46:11 – 49:59

    Who’s best at relationship craft? Great operators exist everywhere (with a nod to Green Berets)

    1. CWChris Williamson46:11

       Yeah, I get that. So I wanted to, uh, pick your brains as far as the, uh, uh, classifieds, (laughs) broadcaster will allow us, um, to just get some, some stories from your time while you were in the service. And the first thing that's come to mind for me is who do you think on the planet has the best, uh, behavioral, uh, agents? Would you say that the, the US is really good, or the, do the Russians happen to be fantastic at it?

    2. RDRobin Dreeke46:40

       Boy, everyone's... You know, uh, I wouldn't put it down to a service because services, um, ha- and services across all countries have, have greatness and have, and have ????? inside each of those services that has the patience and, and the focus of trust on, and put the, and put the broader need of the country ahead of their personal need for self-gratification and glory. Um, and I've seen that in every ser- service. Um, I, I've worked with, I've seen some fantastic Russian officers, I've seen some horrible Russian officers. I've seen some fantastic American CIA and FBI agents and some horrible ones. Um, age doesn't matter. It, it comes down to does this person putting the mission of the country ahead of themselves? And do they have the patience to develop healthy, trusting relationships? The people that can do that, I don't care where you're from, those are the ones that win.

    3. CWChris Williamson47:29

       Yeah.

    4. RDRobin Dreeke47:29

       Because they're winning for a greater cause. That's it. Uh, I've seen it everywhere.

    5. CWChris Williamson47:33

       Yeah, I totally get that. Um, so how about when-

    6. RDRobin Dreeke47:37

       Although, although, I'll, I'll, I'll give you one group that I'm most, I was really, really impressed with.

    7. CWChris Williamson47:41

       Okay.

    8. RDRobin Dreeke47:41

       Um, they were the United States, um, Army Green Berets. I worked with them a couple years back, and the most different thing about them is that they were very much like, uh, my career. My career was what it was not because of any, anything except oppor- just chance. It really was chance. I was, I worked operations for 21 years. I did the same type of operations for 21 years. You're going to either get good or get out.

    9. CWChris Williamson48:11

       (laughs)

    10. RDRobin Dreeke48:12

        And, you know, and a lot of times in all these other organizations, you'll do it for a couple years on the street, then you're promoted to management and up and up and up, and so you, you're no longer doing the actual craft on the ground, and you, and you're going to lose it, because one, you never mastered it to begin with. And two, you don't do it anymore.

    11. CWChris Williamson48:31

        Mm-hmm.

    12. RDRobin Dreeke48:31

        I, I was very fortunate that I, I did it for a number of years, then I was on the team and ran the team for a couple years, still doing it, um, and then I went back and did it for five more years before I retired. I mean, it was non-stop constantly strategizing, and strategizing learning about what... And that's why I'm so altruistic about this, because ultimately it came down to people just want healthy relationships.... so they can survive. That's it.

    13. CWChris Williamson48:52

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RDRobin Dreeke48:53

        Now, how do we foster that? And so, and I, when I mention the Green Berets, um, they spend, this one particular group, spent their entire career doing exactly the same thing. That's, that's, you're gonna get mad skills at anything you do if you do it for that long.

    15. CWChris Williamson49:06

        Yeah.

    16. RDRobin Dreeke49:06

        It's just, it, it's just, so, so services that allow their people to continually hone, practice, refine, and get best at their craft over years, they're gonna be the best.

    17. CWChris Williamson49:18

        You end up with some, some real beasts at the end of that, I suppose.

    18. RDRobin Dreeke49:22

        Yeah, you really do. A- and the greatest thing is, the r- (laughs) as you call them, the real beasts, these are the ones that are actually the genuinely good people in life, because they know the cause and effect of behaviors, they know that it all comes down to relationships and trust, and there's no ... These are the ones that aren't playing games with people anymore. Uh, like, I, I, I know people every now and then who will say, "Hey, when we're going out to dinner, why don't you, you know, talk to that waitress and get her date of birth and her PIN number."

    19. CWChris Williamson49:44

        (laughs)

    20. RDRobin Dreeke49:44

        And I'm like, it's like, it's like, it's like, d- I was like, "Dude, you understand? I don't p- I don't play with people. I, I, I just refuse to play with people." I, I, I, I honor people too much and I, and I honor relationships and, and health and, and being a good human being too much to play with people. Um-

13. 49:59 – 52:48

    Social engineering and ethical use: the same tools can protect or exploit

    1. CWChris Williamson49:59

       Are there some, are there some agents that you've met who are sufficiently talented to be able to, like if, if they decided to put their foot to the floor, so to speak, would be able to, um, be able to do some things like that, and really, uh, kind of use y- use these to get some surprising results out of people?

    2. RDRobin Dreeke50:15

       Oh, God yeah. I mean, I, so I got a friend of mine, Chris Hadnagy, social engineer, and actually I'm a board member on the Innocent Lies Foundation with him. He uses all of his, uh, technical, uh, and cyber skills to protect companies and then we took it to the next level, and we're protecting human trafficking with children around the world. And, um, years ago, we put together a, a social engineering course where he certified people as social engineers. In other words, can these people go in and, and hack information from human beings and get these, these, the type of information that can compromise com- companies so that we can educate that company on protecting themselves against morons like us, you know, that are, that are actually have nefarious, uh, things in their minds? Because, yeah, if, if, y- yeah, these, these skills used by the bad guys, that's why, that's why there are hackers. That's why there are, you know, data mines that get, you know, stolen all the time, because it comes down to human beings and these techniques. Th- and the difference is, is that those people are manipulating and have an agenda, and generally agendas are on timelines, and so that's why my empowerment with choice about maintaining contact or assistance is always one of my fail-safes, um, that makes sure this isn't manipulative. Also, no expectation of reciprocity, that's my also one. But these people, the bad guys, they're doing exactly the same thing. They just have an agenda. The good thing as though, people with agendas tend to be much more impatient, um, than people that are actually going for healthier relationships. So impatience, t- you can see through impatience very rapidly.

    3. CWChris Williamson51:46

       That's so cool. I love the term social engineer as well. It, it really does sound like a hacker, um, taken off the computer and into the real world.

    4. RDRobin Dreeke51:54

       That's what they do. I mean, these guys are phenomenal. Chris and his team, you know, are phenomenal at this, and they have, they, they have competitions, you know, in, when they go to Black Hat every year, and it's just pretty fascinating. W- when we had the classes out there, and he's, Chris is about to have another class now down in Florida. You know, we send people, you know, teams out, you know, to, uh, engage people, elicit information, and practice how to do this. Again, n- no, you know, no, you know, personal id- uh, you know, personal identifying information or anything will be compromised or anything like that, just how do you practice engaging with a stranger and developing rapid trust?

    5. CWChris Williamson52:26

       Yeah. I, I, I guess watching those guys at work must be pretty, uh, fascinating and terrifying in equal measure.

    6. RDRobin Dreeke52:34

       Y- it, it, it becomes, you know, when, when you're 'cause then what it, what's it come down to, you're watching the elusive obvious. What are they doing? They're making it all about the other person. (laughs) It's really pretty, it's really pretty simple if you know how to get out, out of yourself and out of your own ego. (laughs)

14. 52:48 – 1:03:38

    Tech shifts and the future of trust: digitization, deepfakes/VR, and why humans still need face-to-face

    1. CWChris Williamson52:48

       Yeah. So one th- one thing that keeps on coming to mind for me as well is, obviously you will have been a, a part of the agency through, not quite through a digital revolution, but certainly through a, a digital surgence I suppose.

    2. RDRobin Dreeke53:01

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson53:03

       Um, did that, and, uh, has that made a, a new body of information? Obviously how much, how much work is now done online and, uh, and electronically versus face-to-face?

    4. RDRobin Dreeke53:15

       That was huge. Um, you know, government organizations are generally light years behind everyone else, and ours was definitely one of them.

    5. CWChris Williamson53:23

       Well, they're big, they're big and slow.

    6. RDRobin Dreeke53:24

       But I-

    7. CWChris Williamson53:24

       They're h- hard to get moving, right? Like you, you, when you've got-

    8. RDRobin Dreeke53:27

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson53:27

       ... thousands and thousands of people that you need to drag along with you, it's gonna take some time to get them up to speed.

    10. RDRobin Dreeke53:33

        So we went over to, uh, a, a paperless system, um, uh, 2011 to 2013-ish, um, maybe 2010-ish, um, and I thought this would never work. I mean, we were so entrenched with putting a hard piece of paper into a supervisor's inbox, to wait for a signature, to get it back, to put it in a file, which was nothing but a big fat thing of paper in a wall. And I said, "This is never gonna work." And I'll tell you what, by the time, you know, within a couple of years, by, I mean, by the time I left, I, I, I'd never touched a piece of paper for years. Everything was electronic.

    11. CWChris Williamson54:07

        Man, it sounds so fucking prehistoric to me. (laughs)

    12. RDRobin Dreeke54:11

        I know. I know.

    13. CWChris Williamson54:12

        Like, that you've got, here's a thing that's gonna happen, and there's a guy with a pen, and he's gonna sign it. Like, uh, you probably couldn't even find a pen now.

    14. RDRobin Dreeke54:21

        (laughs) Uh, I always carry one. I ... (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson54:24

        Just in case.

    16. RDRobin Dreeke54:24

        Yeah. The other thing too was funny too. We moved on to, believe it or not, when I first came in, we used to sign time sheets, and we used to s- have different colored pencils for the different kinds of hours we worked, and so we had to have the right colored pencil when we're filling our time sheet for the day. (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson54:39

        Oh, that's cute.

    18. RDRobin Dreeke54:39

        And that got taken-

    19. CWChris Williamson54:40

        That's quite cute for, especially-

    20. RDRobin Dreeke54:41

        (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson54:41

        ... especially for the FBI. I wouldn't have thought that they would have had something like that.

    22. RDRobin Dreeke54:45

        Yeah. Yeah, time sheets. Yeah, time sheets are big and they finally got rid of that, and that went electronic too. Yeah, that was, that was pretty funny. (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson54:51

        That's hilarious.

    24. RDRobin Dreeke54:52

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson54:52

        So-Uh, before we wrap up, Robin, I wondered if there were any, uh, stories that you have that come to mind that you think might interest the listeners. Anything that, that you've been thinking about recently or any situations with other friends or with past experiences for yourself?

    26. RDRobin Dreeke55:10

        Huh. Yeah, I think the world's a pretty interesting place right now. Uh, that's, that's, that's one thing.

    27. CWChris Williamson55:15

        Moving forward-

    28. RDRobin Dreeke55:16

        It-

    29. CWChris Williamson55:16

        ... you, you think ... What do you think the role of, uh, intelligence officers will be as we, as we go forward?

    30. RDRobin Dreeke55:23

        It, oh, it's definitely continuing. Um, it has to be, you know? You know, you can only do so many things through a computer, although using the same communication strategies through computers and emails, I do it all the time and it's very effective. Um, the-
15. 1:03:38 – 1:06:35

    Wrap-up: where to find Robin and his books (plus the next project)

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:38

       Yeah. Yeah. I bet it was. So, Robin, can you tell the listeners about your books please and where they can find you online?

    2. RDRobin Dreeke1:03:45

       Yeah, sure. Um, so, th- first let's do find me online, that's easy. My website is www.peopleformula.com. All one word, peopleformula. I'm on LinkedIn obviously, Twitter is @rdreke, R-D-R-E-E-K-E, follow me there. I don't post a whole l- lot, and I don't take s- here's the other thing too, I never take sides, I just take science.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:04

       (laughs)

    4. RDRobin Dreeke1:04:04

       And, and, uh, human, and human interactions 'cause here's another guarantee in life, take a side, half the world will line up against you. Um, I don't like that. (laughs) Um, and then, so my books, I, I have one, my first book came out years ago called It's Not All About Me!: The Top 10 Techniques for Quick Rapport, you can get that on Amazon in any country. Um, that's a short read, about 20,000 words. S- um, my last book that came out is called Go to Trust: American Counterintelligence Experts: Five Steps to Lead & Succeed. Uh, that's also all over the place. That was with St. Martin's Press, great publisher, I worked with there, and then my next book coming out actually, um, it's, it's on behavioral analysis, and, uh, it's, it's the six signs that you can actually judge whether you can trust someone or not. Actually, more likely, it's predict their behavior. And we're still working on a title right now, uh, it was, um, what's w- what's our current working title? Um, ah, just slipped my mind.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:04:57

       (laughs)

    6. RDRobin Dreeke1:04:57

       We've had about three or four. Uh, it's n- it's basically about-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:04:59

       I love wor- I love working titles. I love the-

    8. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:02

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson1:05:02

       ... the, the journey that things go through, like, when we were coming up with the, with the title for this podcast, and I went through, like, this six-month period while I was re- like, pre-recording shows and doing things. When I look back, uh, I went back through my notes not so long ago, and I'm going through and I was thinking, "What the fuck were you thinking?" Like-

    10. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:21

        (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson1:05:21

        ... just looking at all of these m- crazy names, and it's, uh, because after a while it's kind of like the name of a pet, right? Like, the book-

    12. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:29

        Right.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:05:29

        ... y- your, your book names will roll off your tongue a- as if it was y- as if it was a, a child's name. But during the process you look at the words with such, like, high fidelity, like, is that even a word anymore? Does it, it doesn't sound like a word, it doesn't look like a word.

    14. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:47

        (laughs) Actually, I just remembered, it's called Sizing People Up is what it's called right now. It probably will be too, it's probably what it's gonna wind up being, Sizing People Up.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:05:54

        Nice.

    16. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:54

        Um-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:05:55

        Well, if it changes-

    18. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:56

        ... and, and it-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:05:56

        ... we'll know, we'll know that you've had a, uh-

    20. RDRobin Dreeke1:05:58

        (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson1:05:58

        (laughs) ... you've had a creative wobble.

    22. RDRobin Dreeke1:06:00

        Another creative wobble, that's a good description of it too. I have creative wobbles every day. (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson1:06:04

        Yeah. Back and forth. Well, Robin, man, it's been absolutely fas- fascinating. I, I'd love to get you back on again soon as I'm sure that the listeners-

    24. RDRobin Dreeke1:06:12

        Oh, absolutely.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:06:12

        ... will be, will be very interested to, uh, to see what comes out with the next book. And, uh, good luck finishing it off.

    26. RDRobin Dreeke1:06:18

        Hey, thanks a lot. Appreciate it, Chris, and thanks for all your time.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:06:21

        Awesome. Thanks, man.

Episode duration: 1:06:35