How To Stop Betraying Yourself & Be More Authentic - David Sutcliffe

1. 0:00 – 5:15

   The Role of Authenticity in a Good Life

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      How do you come to think about the role of authenticity in a good life?

   2. DSDavid Sutcliffe0:06

      (laughs) Well I, I guess I try to be as authentic as I can. I don't know if that's a thing we can ever do perfectly, and it, it, we can't, we have to be discerning about where we want to be authentic. But as long as we're making choices, meaning I'm not gonna show up at work and always be my authentic self. There's always a mask that we're wearing. But if I'm doing that consciously, then, uh, then I can still maintain my authenticity. For me, authenticity is really just truth, kind of being the truth of who I am, which takes a lot of work, because we don't always know who we are, and we have habitual thought patterns and responses to life that cause us... I mean, we're authentic to those, but to be authentic to ourselves, to go after exactly what it is we want, um, to be present all the way, maybe that's a, another way to define it, being present in the moment, which is a really hard thing to do. Always being present. There's so many ways that we, we leave, you know, whether it's through distraction or drugs or alcohol or pornography, or we get lost in our mind. So part of authenticity for me is just being embodied, being here, being present, being in the moment, telling the truth as best we can, and I think that's empowering. I think that leads to an empowering life. And, uh, you know, it's really what I try to teach people, you know? How do we find our, our authentic self? I know it's an overused word, but, um, I think that's what we're all longing for, because when we're aligned in some way within ourselves, we're true to ourself and that feels good. So even if things go badly, at least we're true to who we are, we're making our own mistakes.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:51

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   4. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:51

      Not the, you know, some ... Not being guided by some idea of who we're supposed to be or what we're supposed to be doing. And I've, I've certainly done plenty of that in my life. I, I made a commitment (laughs) early on, if I'm gonna make mistakes, I want them to be my own mistakes. I wanna learn from them.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:04

      Oh, that's such a cool idea.

   6. DSDavid Sutcliffe2:06

      My failures.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:06

      The, the idea of making a mistake and it not even being yours.

   8. DSDavid Sutcliffe2:10

      Painful. Painful. I learned this as an actor, because when I first started out in Hollywood, you know, you get there and you think that everybody is, knows what they're doing. (laughs) And they're smarter than you. At least that's what I thought. And, uh, you know, so you listen to a lot of directors, you know, tell you how to play scenes, and, um, it got to a point where, uh, you know, I would, I would see the scene and, and I thought, "Yeah, I don't think that was the right choice." Now, it's my face on the screen, right? So if it's not resonating, it, people aren't thinking about the director, they're thinking about me. So there was a certain point I just decided to take ownership of everything. And occasionally you'd get into conflict with directors, but the choice was, um, um, I gotta do it my way. Uh, I wanna listen, of course, um, to what people are saying, saying and take that information in. But ultimately I have to do it my way and live or die by it.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:01

      Is there an interesting feedback loop between authenticity and confidence? It seems like in order to be able to sort of stand up for yourself and to have, uh, faith that your intuition or your instinct is right, you need to be confident in it, and then presumably the more that you do that, the more it feeds back into confidence. But as with most things that kind of spiral, they also spiral in the opposite direction, which is the longer that you live out of authenticity, the less confidence you have in being authentic and the less you know what authenticity is, which makes it harder to become so on and so forth. It seems to me like that's the kind of dynamic that goes on.

   10. DSDavid Sutcliffe3:32

       Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. It, I might use the word faith, having faith in your inner impulses. Uh, you know, to, to stay in the, the, uh, television and movie acting references, there was a, when I was growing up I was a big fan of John Cassavetes, and he was kind of the original independent filmmaker, and his just films were wild and raw and crazy. And he had a, he had a great career as a mainstream Hollywood actor. But his films were just something else entirely. And he had this quote about all these people, um, they go to Hollywood and they start getting into commercial projects, and they say one day that they're gonna do something creative, they're gonna do something artistic, do something true to themselves. But they never do, because once you buy into that-

   11. CWChris Williamson4:18

       Mm.

   12. DSDavid Sutcliffe4:19

       ... and exactly what you're saying, once you stop listening to those innermost impulses, you, you start to forget that they're there. And so, that had a huge impact on me. And I've done my best, not perfectly, I don't think any of us do it perfectly, to live by that. To live by that inner intuition, those inner impulses, like that, that, that thing that is inside me. There's a knowingness that we all have, and only we know it. And if we start asking everybody, you know, "Is this okay? Is that okay?" They're gonna be, maybe they'll be able to give you some legitimate, uh, reflection. But at the end of the day, I think anybody who's successful, at a certain point they stood alone. They just went on their own intuition, their own gut, and they took a risk, and, um, and that's how they became successful. You have to, you have to follow it, and the more you do, the more confidence you, you have in it. And exactly, the less you do it, the more I think lost you become.

2. 5:15 – 9:56

   Beginning to Rediscover Authenticity

   1. DSDavid Sutcliffe5:16

   2. CWChris Williamson5:16

      What would you say to somebody that feels like they haven't tapped into that authenticity in a while? Is there, is there anything, have you got any prescriptions or advice for how someone can begin to start listening to that little voice that maybe's been drowned out for a long time?

   3. DSDavid Sutcliffe5:30

      Well, this happens with my clients all the time, and I give them an exercise, and I have them list, like, things in their life where they had an intuition and they did it and it worked out. And you'd be surprised how long a list everybody has. Right? So you're trying to encourage that kind of thinking. But it requires faith. It requires a, a deep faith. And, you know, I'm a b- big believer in, in synchronicity. I mean, it, it just, I don't know how it works, but it seems to...... be real on some level. I don't know if it's just a, a trick of my mind or, you know, back in the day, they used to look in the fire, right? And you look in the fire for a sign, but what are you really looking for? You're looking for your own unconscious to be reflected back in the fire so you can trust what you see, that it's not s- it's not a, an image necessarily in the fire that you're seeing that's separate from you. You look at the fire long enough, you can get into a meditative state, and suddenly your own unconscious is going to be projected onto that fire and the thing that you see is something that's actually you. And so practices like that, like meditation, I think are very valuable or the, the thing that I do, it's like with Mexico, you know, I'm gonna move down to Mexico. W- why am I moving to Mexico? That's crazy. I don't speak Spanish. My wife speaks Spanish, but it just seemed like such a, uh, a big leap, but (clears throat) I asked for signs. I do this every time. I ask for signs. And, and I got them. Like the, the week after I asked for signs, the three people that I know in Mexico all came up in conversation, and with strangers. It's like we ended up knowing... I'm like, "You know that guy? I know that guy." "Yeah, he's a friend of mine who lives in Mexico." Like that in the same week. That kind of shit happens to me all the fucking time. I can't explain it, Chris. I don't know what it is. I'm sure there's a lot of doubters out there, but that's how I do it. When I have a strong intuition, I ask for signs and almost always I get them.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:25

      Is that... F- for want of a better term, is that a mature man's game, not a young man's game?

   5. DSDavid Sutcliffe7:34

      Well, I think so. I mean, I've been around. I'm 55. I've lived a life, ups and downs, success and failure, rich and poor, and you start to learn how to, um, just go with it all, go with the flow, and then when you look back, you see that th- there was a logic to all of it, like it was all working in your favor somehow, even the, the tragedies, even the failures. And I think ultimately, you know, you go back to authenticity and confidence, and I said the word faith. It really is about faith. Like that's what I've learned at this point in my life. Like your faith will make it so. And th- the faith in something, like a faith in yourself or, or a project that you're engaged with, like there's a, there's a vibration, there's an energy in that that, um, I think makes things manifest. And it's also very attractive, somebody who has faith, um, and so you end up attracting people to you because I think when, when you're in that state, everybody wants that. Who doesn't want to have absolute faith, right? Like which is trust, right? Which is the absence of fear. And I, uh, you know, to use a, a sports analogy, I was... used to be a hockey player and, uh, y- you know, I was okay, but, um, the worst thing was coming up against a guy who had absolute faith in their ability or that they were gonna win, like you just realize, "I can't knock this guy off his game. There's nothing I'm gonna do to this guy."

   6. CWChris Williamson9:04

      Kind of regardless of their ability-

   7. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:06

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson9:06

      ... your faith was kind of more important.

   9. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:08

      Exactly. And that, that I realized was the strongest quality in a player. You don't want to come up against a guy who has absolute faith.

   10. CWChris Williamson9:17

       There's a, uh, a Bill Burr quote that says, "You're gonna be fine, and even if you're not gonna be fine, isn't it better to just exist thinking you're going to be fine until it's not fine? And then when it's not fine, you can just deal with it then, but it makes no sense to ruin right now."

   11. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:31

       Yeah. Bill Burr is a (laughs) is a very... a wise man. That's h- that's how I am with the belief in God. I mean, belief in God makes me feel more powerful, so why not believe in God? It's really that simple for me. I mean, there's, there's other things for me I've had experiences and-

   12. CWChris Williamson9:47

       It's like the, uh, productivity bro Pascal's wager.

   13. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:50

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:51

       (laughs)

   15. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:51

       Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

   16. CWChris Williamson9:54

       Um-

   17. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:54

       God is on my side.

3. 9:56 – 14:52

   Why Fear Can Be So Prevalent

   1. DSDavid Sutcliffe9:56

   2. CWChris Williamson9:56

      Just, uh, sort of thinking about the opposite side, you used the word fear there. It's something I've been kind of obsessed with this year. Why, why is it that fear is so sort of prevalent in that way? Why do we see threats where there are none? Why is it that we're so concerned with that? And what's a way to get us to sort of move out of that fear-based perspective?

   3. DSDavid Sutcliffe10:18

      Well, that's, that's a, that's a big question. I mean, it, it, it goes back probably to, to childhood. I mean, we all have fear. We come into the world, we're vulnerable, totally helpless, totally dependent. That, that's a scary thing. And, um, if we don't get the attunement we need, the love we need, the comfort we need, the needs that we need, um, there's gonna be fear there. And so, um, I think it's built in in some way, like this, this feeling of like I'm not entirely safe, and I, and I... Uh, you can have the best parents in the world, but, um, I don't think there's anybody walking around who doesn't have some kind of issues or, or fear around... unconscious fear around their own safety that they then project onto the world. And then, of course, we live in a culture, particularly with the media, that, um, weaponizes fear to keep you watching, to keep you under control, and so, uh, you know, I'm, I'm reading, uh, The Screwtape Letters right now and it's, it's, uh, you know, all about the devil essentially, and it's all about fear. If you can p- keep a person in fear, you can control them. So fear is really the biggest battle that we're all facing, and, um, we don't wanna... feel it. That's really, um, what it is. Like if you're not afraid to f- feel, what are you actually afraid of, right? And so we, we, we do so much to avoid feeling our fear, and so-

   4. CWChris Williamson11:47

      Mm-hmm.

   5. DSDavid Sutcliffe11:47

      ... one of the practices that I've done and... is-And I encourage other people to do, is to constantly put yourself in situations where you're confronting your fear, and then go through it and feel the panic, feel everything that comes up. And then on, on the other side of that, you realize very quickly, it was all an illusion. It was all in your head. It wasn't real in the way that, that you thought it was. So, you know, how do you confront it? You have to take risks. You have to be willing to, to, to move towards your fear. There's really no other way to do it, and to understand that there's a very strong force within you, you know, which I call th- the lower self, you might call it the shadow, that, um, is afraid and is doing everything that it can to, uh, what it thinks is protecting you. So it's gonna convince you, it's gonna tell you stories, all kinds of stories about why you shouldn't do that, or why that's a fr- scary, or, or why that, that woman that you wanna ask out is probably a bitch, so what's the point, or it's never gonna work out. This is the voice of fear. So you have to start to understand that your negative thoughts are actually just the voice of your fear, and then understand that the culture is trying to keep you afraid. And so it takes a lot of work. I mean, y- I think you have to work (laughs) every day, uh, in some way to, uh, mitigate against all of that fear.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:05

      Is that a top-down solution? Is that a bottom-up solution? Is it something else? Because I think there's a tendency for perhaps the sort of people that listen to shows like this one, uh, to think that they can think their way out of an overthinking problem, or think their way out of a feeling problem, and, um, I'm not sure whether that's possible.

   7. DSDavid Sutcliffe13:26

      No. You can't, you can't solve a problem of the mind with the mind. It has to be through action. You have to be willing to take action. You have to do something different. Uh, the mind is tricky. The mind is not a reliable narrator of your experience. That's, that's one thing that I, I've come (laughs) to understand. I don't, I don't necessarily trust my mind, particularly when I'm in a state of anxiety or fear or confusion. That's when it's the least reliable. It's most reliable when I'm feeling good, when I'm feeling aligned, um, when I'm feeling connected, let's say. And so, um, you know, I think yeah, you ha- you have to be willing to do things, right? Take risks, take action, um, move your body in, in some way. Um, I mean, you, you probably know this 'cause, you know, Huberman talked about it a lot, this, this, um, when we're in a, a fear state, um, or agitated or frustrated or whatever it is, if you go for a walk, it solves the problem instantly because what are you doing? You're walking forward in space, so that's telling your brain there's no fear there. So you can be lost in something that's overtaking you, that's consuming you, negative thoughts, and you can go for a walk, and literally five minutes later, it's clear. So that tells you, just a walk can solve most of your problems.

   8. CWChris Williamson14:51

      Talk

4. 14:52 – 20:13

   The Cost of Betraying Yourself

   1. CWChris Williamson14:52

      to me about the cost of betraying yourself, about not being fully honest, about allowing that lower self to take over more.

   2. DSDavid Sutcliffe15:01

      (inhales deeply) So this, (clears throat) this is really... I'm, I'm gonna say this a lot. This is the heart of my work. I s- my clients make fun of me. I'm like, "This is the most important thing you have to understand." Um, but we all had to betray ourselves as children in order to stay in connection and in favor with our caregivers. There were certain things that they, um, wanted from us, and so we gave them that, um, and there were certain things we intuited or were told directly that they didn't like about the way that, that we were. And so that betrayal process, um, starts at a very young age, th- you know, the primary survival strategy for any child is to stay in connection and in favor with their caregivers, so they, they have no choice but to betray themselves. So that self-betrayal becomes a pattern, right? It becomes a way of being. And so we believe that we have to s- have to betray ourselves in some way in order to stay in connection with other people. So the uh, the unconscious belief when, when we do betray ourself or abandon ourself or don't speak our truth or give ourselves away, whatever phrase you wanna use, is what we're actually afraid of is the disconnection from, from the other person, which on a primal level, is, uh, is a threat, of course, because we wanna stay connected to the, to the tribe. We need to stay connected to other people to survive. And so the illusion that we have to shatter is that you can actually stand on your own, that you can tolerate the feelings of disconnection, you can tolerate saying something or doing something and feeling the disapproval from, from your friend or from the world or from your spouse, and that y- you're gonna be okay. Like you're n- it's not going to kill you, um, the way the, the unconscious mind thinks it, thinks it would as, when you were a child. And so that's not an easy thing to do. First, you have to understand that you are betraying yourself. And because it's so habitual, very often we don't. We're just left with a feeling of we're angry, resentful, um, we don't feel empowered in our life. Some, you know... Th- the, the world out there is somehow controlling us and we're at effect to our, our environment. Those are all signs that we are betraying ourselves. And so once you start to understand that, then you can take some self-responsibility. And the question I ask in, in all these situations with betrayal, let's say, oh, I have a client show up who said like, "You know, I was betrayed. My girlfriend, my boy-" whatever, "did- said this, did this." And the question I always ask is, "Was there a moment before the betrayal where you betrayed yourself? Like, was there some intuition, some instinct, something you want s- wanted to say but you didn't say?" And every time, it's always a yes. And it's like, "Well, why didn't you say it?" "Because I was afraid." "Afraid of what?" "Well, afraid of how they were gonna react." And so we all have that, right? And so it's just, it's just a practice. It's an awareness first and then a practice, um, because it's the only way we really can be free.... right? If otherwise, we're, we're modulating our behavior based on the external world, based on, you know, how other people are gonna react. We're, you know, we're caring what other people think. But it's really deeper than that.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:07

      Is that why the fact that the self-betrayal begins in childhood, in relationship with your caregiver, typically, is that why relationships are such a breeding ground for this to come up-

   4. DSDavid Sutcliffe18:19

      Exactly.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:20

      ... that it's, it, it's now mirroring the, the first time that this happened?

   6. DSDavid Sutcliffe18:24

      Yeah. I mean, you're gonna heal all your childhood (laughs) wounds in your relationship. Um, I'm finding that out. And it's, it's, it's tricky. It always comes up. I'm projecting my issues with my mother, all the issues from my childhood onto my partner all the time, and she was doing the same to me. And it's, uh, you know, we, it, it creates this confusion, it creates this resentment. Um, we get at each other. And fortunately, you know, she's a pretty aware, evolved person, so we're able to get to the heart of what's actually going on for both of us and then come back into unity. But it's really about self-responsibility. It's like, how am I co-creating this? There's something that I'm doing. There's some distortion I have, like, I believe this thing. Is it actually true? Like, I didn't... I grew up, my mom left my father, left my stepfather, and then, and didn't really attend to my needs during that process. I mean, she was overwhelmed, she was very young, and I felt like, "Hey," you know, "does anybody (laughs) wanna check in with me, see how I feel about this?" So, my conception of women was, "I don't trust them, and they don't care what I feel." And so I walk into a relationship and that's... I'm looking for evidence of that everywhere, and I'm building a case against her. And any little thing that she does that confirms my belief, I point to it, and then I stack it up until I blow up, and I'm like, "You're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this." And, and maybe she is doing some of those things, but, um, my reaction to it is completely out of proportion, uh, because of my history, and because of that, I'm not actually seeing the good things that she's doing. I'm not seeing the ways in which she is, in fact, very trustable. And so, we all come into relationship with those kind of distortions.

5. 20:13 – 26:12

   Self-Editing in Relationships

   1. DSDavid Sutcliffe20:13

   2. CWChris Williamson20:13

      Just going back to that authenticity point and sort of folding that into relationships, how much room do you think there is for self-editing in a relationship?

   3. DSDavid Sutcliffe20:23

      I think discernment is the key. I don't think you have to share everything (laughs) in a relationship. That's, that's, that's my feeling. But, um, you have to be careful that you're not hiding. Because if you're hiding something, it's gonna be felt, right? And if you're hiding it out of shame, that's gonna be felt. And ultimately, it's, it's going to, it's gonna come up. So, I think, you know... And we can, we can, um, delude ourselves, we can rationalize, "Oh, I don't need to share everything with my partner. I don't need to share this. It's not really important." Um, but oftentimes, it's, uh, that, that kind of vulnerability is terrifying, right? To really reveal who we actually are, uh, to our partners. And, and I think for men particularly, it's like, to reveal that sometimes you're just afraid, you know? That, that you, um, have fear about whatever, you know? And, uh, there's something maybe shameful about that. And, and the reframe for me is that if you can take ownership of your fear, um, and, uh, sort of be with it, you know, um, and not put it on her, not, it's not, you're not asking that she take care of it or do something about it, but it u- what it does is i- it brings you into presence, right? Because she can feel that something's going on. And so if you can name it for yourself and contain it within yourself, it actually creates safety, right? That kind of vulnerability is really important. The, the difference is, is if you're afraid and you're looking for her to be your mother and take care of you, or she has the instinct to want to take care of you because you're afraid, um, which as a man, you, you, you wanna resist that, because you don't want her to be your mother. But I think that kind of vulnerability is, is really important. I don't think you have to share all your, you know, troubles with them, all the details of the thing. But if I'm having a bad day, I wanna make sure that my wife knows that it's not about her. So, I wanna give her some kind of indication, like, what's going on for me, be present with her, 'cause that's what she's longing for. She's longing for me to be present. And if I don't reveal myself in those moments, I'm not present. And if I'm not present, she's gonna be agitated. She's gonna, gonna l- create a story in her head that she's done something wrong, or she's gonna be upset or angry and something's gonna happen. So, that's 10 a- and it's not exactly an answer to your question, but that's, that's how I think about all that stuff.

   4. CWChris Williamson22:43

      I guess we've got this sort of strange balance between betraying yourself to maintain a connection with someone or, or to not have to open yourself up, or whatever. But then if you do do that, this person isn't in connection with you, they're in connection with this projection that you've just put forward. But then, there's also the sense of, well, you need to be discerning. Like, you, you don't need to tell them about your new athlete's foot protocol or, you know, whatever it is that you've got that's going on. I had chronic flatulence in the office today, honey. Like, uh, m- some things, perhaps, are best kept for the boys. Uh, uh, but as soon as you open that door, the discernment, it, it is a... it becomes a decision, right? You need to make this sort of editorial choice-

   5. DSDavid Sutcliffe23:20

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson23:20

      ... about what i- what, what is it that I'm going to do? And that can become a very slippery slope. A lot of guys can use that to excuse ever having to open up, uh, and then you end up hiding things that you probably shouldn't really be hiding, and then you start having expectations that are unspoken resentments because you wanted this thing but you never said it. And yeah, that balance between, uh, betraying yourself and then ending up with somebody connecting to a person that you're not is a, a very dangerous slippery slope, I think, for a lot of guys.

   7. DSDavid Sutcliffe23:51

      Yeah, I agree. You see that a lot in the, um...... the kinda red pill community like, "Never share your feelings with your woman," and, uh, uh, I mean, I understand, uh, they're reacting to, uh, uh, the opposite pole of that, which is there's this movement, um, to sharing everything with your wife like that she's your best friend and you wanna open up, you wanna be vulnerable, and it's, it's important that she sees you feel and that creates connection and intimacy. And, and, and, and, and I, you know, I'm a therapy guy, so I, I, I can relate to that to a degree, and I did that. You know, when I, first when I started therapy and especially into my training, and that's all you're doing is revealing yourself over and over and over again, and then I would do that in my relationships, and it took me some time to realize, like, "No, that's too much." (laughs) Like, I don't need to be sharing all of that with her, um, so I have to be discerning. I have to b- be able to contain things within myself. I think that's a real practice, learning containment, which is not suppression or repression. There's a difference, obviously. Um, there's certain things, yeah, I have, I need to take to the boys, and there's risks I have to take with my wife that are gonna be vulnerable, right? There's things that maybe, um, uh, I need that I need to express to her or the example I just gave that I, you know, that there's places where I, I fe- I feel afraid right now. Um, the, the whole game for me is, as I said, is presence. Like, if you are not present with her, then she's not gonna be happy. She's not gonna feel safe. And so you have to find a way to be discerning but share enough so that you're present so that she can feel you. She has to be able to feel you. If she can't feel you, she doesn't trust you because you're actually not trustable. If you're not in, uh, in touch in some way with what you're actually feeling, you're not trustable, and the reason why is you suppress your emotions or you rationalize them in some way, you're going to act in compensation to those feelings in a way that's not authentic to you, right? And that's gonna create problems for you, so it's really, really important that you understand, know without shame what it is that you're feeling and, you know, how and when you choose to share that with her is ultimately, you know, uh, is, is up to you.

6. 26:12 – 32:34

   Why is Self-Compassion So Hard?

   1. DSDavid Sutcliffe26:13

   2. CWChris Williamson26:13

      Why is self-compassion so hard? We want to have our own back if nothing else. If we're gonna do containment, we need to be both a, like, a firm supportive schoolteacher and also a, a pretty sort of ruthless prison guard at the same time, I suppose. Uh, but we need that self-compassion. Wh- wh- why is that often quite difficult to access?

   3. DSDavid Sutcliffe26:37

      Because it, it, it comes into conflict with, um, a lower self aspect of us that believes that we are bad, and what do I mean by that? Well, uh, going back to what I was saying earlier about we, we have to, um, repress or deny or disassociate from certain aspects of ourself in order to stay connected and in favor with our caregivers. Well, the child has no discernment, no consciousness, right? It's th- the parents are God, and so they're going to make the assumption, they're gonna draw the conclusion that those parts of them are bad, like, that part of me is bad, and so most of us, I would say all of us, but I'll say most (laughs) of us have some place inside us that doesn't trust our own inherent goodness, right, that there's some part of us that's bad, and it's usually, you know, deep in the unconscious, and it could be masked by a kind of confidence or bravado, but most people have s- t- some degree of shame. And so that, um, that part of us that thinks it's bad, uh, it wants to continue to tell ourselves the story that we are bad. Why? Because that's what creates safety for us. And meaning that this part of me, right? Let's say for a guy it's my aggression, okay? A lot of guys think their aggression is bad. They've been told their aggression is bad, so if I show my aggression, I'm gonna get in trouble. Like, Mom's not gonna be happy o- or the world is not gonna be happy or my girlfriend's not gonna be happy, so we make that part of us bad, and so whenever it comes up, we're gonna tell ourselves a story that there's something wrong with us, I'm out of control, I need to work on this, some- something that it's not okay, and so it takes a, a lot of work to, um, i- i- to sort of override that, to accept, and maybe this is why on a deeper level it's hard to accept the depth of our shadow. It's hard to accept how cruel we can be. It's hard to accept that all of the insanity that we see out in the world that's horrifying to, to us also exists in us, and maybe we don't act it out in ov- overt ways, but sometimes we act it out in, in, in subtle ways. Uh, all of us are capable of cruelty, and, you know, given a certain set of circumstances, like, wh- would I have been a Nazi? Maybe. Probably. I mean, I don't know. So that lives in me, and I think it's very hard for people to come to terms with that and accept themselves there. Generally, what we do is we suppress it 'cause we wanna create an idealized self-image that we're good. We don't wanna know that part of ourself, and so it's in the place where it's hard to be compassionate for ourself. It's really hard to be compassionate, uh, from that place where there's, there's this deep-rooted belief that there's something about us that's not okay.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:38

      Yeah, something wrong or broken. It is odd that, I don't know, I, I, I can't think of a much, a much less functional belief than that. Like, it's, it, it's not really going to contribute to you having a flourishing life or thriving, uh, and yet it's so endemic to most people, especially, uh, people that are high performers.

   5. DSDavid Sutcliffe30:03

      Yeah, well, there, there's a- and I understand it. You know, there's, there's a belief that if I'm hard on myself, like, I'm gonna achieve more, right? Having that, that militant general in your head. And I, and I think that's useful. I mean, I want a tough coach. I loved tough coaches. I loved coaches that pushed me, um, and who were clear, and if I wasn't meeting the standard, they let me know. I liked that. And if they were disappointed in me, they also let me know. Um, but at the same time, if that coach doesn't have the capacity to, um, love me, to be there for me, to see me as human, right? And to, to transcend the, the performance or the goal and go underneath that, I don't really trust him, and ultimately, it's going to unravel. And you see these coaches, those hard-hats coaches, they don't last long. Uh, they move from team to team (laughs) , you know? It's like a little bit of medicine that maybe that team needs for a couple of years, but then they move on, right? So, I think we need, we need both, both things. We need, we need, um, uh, we need to push ourselves, um, but we also need compassion for ourselves. And, and again, you know, i- i- it's easy to rationalize. Like, again, the mind is very, very tricky. And so, it's like, "Oh, I can take the day off today," things like that, and so we wanna mitigate against that. So, it's, it's a really, really tricky balance, and I, you know, I struggle with it all the time, right? Like, where is the balance between pushing myself and self-compassion?

   6. CWChris Williamson31:36

      Yeah. Uh, it's strange that by continuing to whip yourself into submission and push yourself harder, you become successful in the only way that other people can judge you, which is outwardly. Uh, but nobody-

   7. DSDavid Sutcliffe31:50

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:50

      ... really sees the personal price that you've had to pay to get to the position that you're in, and that means that a lot of the time, the trade-off, uh, it's, uh, w- one of the metrics is observable, and another one of the metrics is hidden. And you will almost always trade a hidden metric for an observable metric, because people will happily spend an extra hour and a half daily commute going to and from a job that's one rung up the ladder higher and another 15 grand a year in terms of annual revenue, but what have they lost in terms of sanity and sleep and time with their kids or their relationship quality? Well, those are all hidden metrics. The observable metric is what's your job title, how much do you earn per year, where did you go on holiday last year. And, uh, yeah,

7. 32:34 – 45:15

   Different Mindsets For Different Times

   1. CWChris Williamson32:34

      I, uh, there's this cool insight I learned from an evolutionary psychologist about how, um, ancestrally there's, uh, two ways primarily that leaders, uh, ascended within tribes, so one was through dominance, and the other was through prestige. So, dominance being more tyrannical, uh, more top-down, more authoritarian, and prestige being more egalitarian, sort of voted by the group, uh, one that's come maybe from the bottom up. Now, what's interesting is that you need different kinds of leaders at different periods, so it seems like the more domineering, uh, leader that's top-down, you want that person in times of war and conflict because they're decisive, they're ruthless, they'll garner everybody together. "Everyone needs to get on the same fucking page or else we're all gonna dr- die, okay? Like, stop dicking about, Johnny."

   2. DSDavid Sutcliffe33:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson33:21

      But then the other side, the problem that you have with that, and I think that I th- I'm certain that there's a parallel when it comes to sort of the way that we treat ourselves, the problem with having a tyrant is that when the war's over, you've still got a fucking tyrant. And the prestigious leader, the one that's risen from the bottom up, he's, uh, raising everyone else along, he's able to play the game, he knows what's go- uh, he's not gonna get a look in because this fucking tyrannical, top-down, authoritarian bastard has, now surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fortified himself.

   4. DSDavid Sutcliffe33:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson33:53

      And I really think there's something to this, about how we sort of treat ourselves, and I think that the most obvious place is when you begin doing anything and you're on the launchpad of self-growth or, or understanding, discovering who you really are, getting a business off the ground, leaving the city or the country that you don't want to be in anymore, leaving that relationship, getting out of the family that you don't wanna be in, whatever it is, like, you need to use whatever fuel you can get ahold of, and it's kind of like you're in war. Like, if you're gonna make something happen from zero, you're at total... The, the RPMs are at zero, the miles per hour are at zero. There is nothing. There's no inertia or momentum to carry you off, and you need to rip this motherfucker off the launchpad one inch at a time. You could probably do with someone that's good at going to war. The problem is, after you get out into orbit and you're just floating around, you go, "I know that that was a really useful mindset. I know that that tyrannical leader was one that I needed to domineer over me, but I really wish he would fuck off now. But unfortunately, he's still there."

   6. DSDavid Sutcliffe34:59

      Yeah, I think that's, that's exactly right. Um, different energies, different qualities at different times in our life, but I, I agree with you. If I was going from, uh, zero trying to get into shape, I'd want a hard-ass motherfucker, uh, driving me all the time. I don't know if I want-

   7. CWChris Williamson35:14

      Get David Goggins screaming in my face, yeah.

   8. DSDavid Sutcliffe35:15

      Exactly. That's gonna get me there as quick as possible. I'm gonna learn something about myself. Um, but then once I arrive and I'm satisfied with where I'm at, maybe, maybe that energy wants to shift. So, it might be also, like, I mean, while you were talking, I was thinking about the balance of the masculine and the feminine. It's not exactly what you're saying, but, you know, there's something about that too, uh, and- and both are necessary at different, at different times. You know, you need-

   9. CWChris Williamson35:42

      Well-

   10. DSDavid Sutcliffe35:42

       ... that strong masculine force, and sometimes-

   11. CWChris Williamson35:44

       Yeah, y-

   12. DSDavid Sutcliffe35:44

       ... you need that comforting feminine force.

   13. CWChris Williamson35:46

       You said earlier on, the reason I asked about the, uh, mature man versus the young man strategy is, I'm 36 now, so I guess I'm kind of straddling both of them. And, um, I, I get the sense that when you're starting out with something, you really need to be a bit more prescriptive, and you probably do need more of a drill sergeant than an Eckhart Tolle. Uh, but as you start to accumulate a little bit of instinct and experience, that is precisely the thing that's hard to replicate. So, not only are you allowing yourself to sort of aggregate all of your life experiences, you're finding more ease, you're finding more play, you're...... y- you're, um, competitive in a manner that other people simply can't do because unless they've had all of the experiences that you've had in precisely the same sequence with the reflections that you've got for the amount of duration of time that you've done it for, they can't be you. There is no blueprint that can work that back because frankly, kind of like YouTube's algorithm, open the black box, they don't even know how it works. You don't even know how-

   14. DSDavid Sutcliffe36:43

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson36:43

       ... your own instinct works, right?

   16. DSDavid Sutcliffe36:45

       That's right. (laughs) Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson36:45

       Um, and I'm, I'm just fascinated at the moment, you know, I spent a lot of time when I first started this show seven years ago, very much productivity bro, uh, the, y- the f- five daily step routine that I need to do to ensure that I get my sort of three-month sprints and my one-year goals and my five-year vision, all the rest of the stuff. It was very prescriptive, it was very rigid, it was very compartmentalized, and it was very useful. And fuck, it worked. Uh, but I'm really interested now in what a more sort of fluid, easeful version of that looks like, one that does allow me to use instinct and aggregate all of this experience a lot more. And, um, I kind of get the sense that that is moving from the, the tyrant across into the sort of benevolent leader.

   18. DSDavid Sutcliffe37:32

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson37:32

       And, uh, that's kind of how I've got it in my head.

   20. DSDavid Sutcliffe37:35

       Yeah. No, that's, that's beautiful. Um, well, you're 36 years old, you're at the height of your powers, you're, you know, you're, uh, w- it's not your time to be self-reflective. (laughs) It's your-

   21. CWChris Williamson37:46

       (laughs)

   22. DSDavid Sutcliffe37:46

       ... you know, it's...

   23. CWChris Williamson37:46

       (laughs)

   24. DSDavid Sutcliffe37:48

       You're attacking, (laughs) you know? And that's what you should be doing, you're just following your energy, you're following what you wanna do, right? Later in life, you can look back and, and, and, and maybe make sense of it all. So... And I was that, right? Um, and right around your age, I started to think, "Eh, there's something else," right? Because I, you know, I went to Hollywood and, you know, I was hungry for it, and I went after it, and it was thrilling, and it was exciting, and, you know, I was making money and meeting all these people and having success. And then there got a point where I just like, "Mm, there's, there's more." And I didn't know exactly what that meant, um, but that's when I started on this, this journey that I've, that I've gone on. Um, but I can tell you now at 55, uh, my approach to life is completely different, and it goes back to what I was saying earlier, it's just instead of, like, make it happen, I, I think let it happen. It's gonna come to me. I wanna be in the flow. I don't wanna force anything. And that was very hard for my ego to come to terms with. You know, my ego was-

   25. CWChris Williamson38:51

       Oh, you're not in the driving seat anymore?

   26. DSDavid Sutcliffe38:52

       Yeah, my ego was screaming like, "What the fuck, man? Impose your will on the world, bro."

   27. CWChris Williamson38:58

       Yep, yep.

   28. DSDavid Sutcliffe38:58

       And that's a very powerful feeling. And I did that, and it feels fucking great when you impose your will on the world and you get what you want. Um, but that is, uh, uh, uh, that is a diminishing supply. A- and i- e- it... At a certain point, you wanna just experiment with doing something differently, like, what's another way to meet life? Like, there's, there's more information out there, and you know, I'm, uh, like, I'm in my wise man years apparently-

   29. CWChris Williamson39:29

       (laughs)

   30. DSDavid Sutcliffe39:29

       ... uh, which is sort of weird 'cause, you know, I, I, I have some wisdom I've, uh, accrued along the way, but there's another part of me that's still trying to figure it all out and making-
8. 45:15 – 56:26

   When You Get Sick of Yourself

   1. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:15

   2. CWChris Williamson45:15

      I heard the other day, "Eventually, you just get sick of yourself."

   3. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:20

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:23

      And, uh-

   5. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:23

      It's so good.

   6. CWChris Williamson45:25

      ... uh, a lot of- a lot... it sort of refers to a lot of things, I think. First off, uh, that sort of selfish energy that you were talking about before, the- that you can't really be in service, you can't really have that sort of paternal pay it forward thing, because it's still all about you.

   7. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:41

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:42

      Even the kids are about you.

   9. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:43

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:43

       Even little Timmy's performance isn't about Timmy. It's about how does this reflect on you. It's not about-

   11. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:49

       Yep.

   12. CWChris Williamson45:49

       It's not about being there-

   13. DSDavid Sutcliffe45:51

       It's narcissism.

   14. CWChris Williamson45:52

       Yeah. Yeah, it is. And, uh, you know, in many ways, that is a fucking powerful energy, again, and it will make you incredibly successful in the only way that we can all be judged, which is outwardly.

   15. DSDavid Sutcliffe46:03

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:04

       But I think, you know, whether it's Will Baryon transcend and include or- or it's, you know, alchemizing it into something else, eventually... I mean, and c- fuck it, you know, you can get through your entire life, uh, and- and- and sort of get to that stage. Perhaps we have a new president who has managed to do such. Um, but it'll carry you a very long way, but I'm not convinced that that's the energy that you want to be using for the entire time. I don't... I think it's a toxic fuel when used long-term, and I think that there's sort of more holistic and interesting ways to- to get there, especially after you've burned the first couple of rocket boosters filled with that, like, me energy. And then, okay, well, what's next?

   17. DSDavid Sutcliffe46:42

       Mm-hmm. I had my most, um, satisfying experiences when I played hockey, when I didn't concern myself with my stats, um, or scoring goals, whatever it was. When I concerned myself with, "How can I be useful for this team?" Like, when I made that switch, like...

   18. CWChris Williamson47:01

       Mm.

   19. DSDavid Sutcliffe47:01

       Because sometimes I was playing with a lot of really good guys and I wasn't as good as them, and I was like, "I have to figure out a way to be useful." And I always found that, um, those experiences to be the most satisfying, because I was- I was part of something. And- and sometimes you're appreciated, sometimes you're not, but you have this own internal appreciation. So I- I- I think you're right. I think real maturity is understanding that, particularly as a man, um, that, uh, spiritual fulfillment, psychological fulfillment comes from being of service, that you have to, you know, give your life, um, to something bigger than yourself, and- and serve that thing. And, um, I think, you know, unfortunately, the culture is, uh, we're- you know, we're very much lost in being famous and being successful and all the outward things you were talking about. But, um, that's- that's the switch that I'm trying to make. Again, my ego gets involved. It's like, "What about you, bro? What about- what about what you want?" Um, but you also are less neurotic that way. When you're not thinking about yourself, you have less anxiety because you're just focused on- on giving. Now, not in a way that you're betraying yourself, as we talked about earlier. You have to be discerning. You have to take care of yourself. But if you're oriented in that way, I think it's- I think it's ultimately a lot more satisfying.

   20. CWChris Williamson48:16

       Do you think that there'll ever be a way to communicate to people that becoming rich and successful is not going to fix your problems?

   21. DSDavid Sutcliffe48:24

       No, I think you gotta-

   22. CWChris Williamson48:25

       Effectively.

   23. DSDavid Sutcliffe48:25

       ... you gotta find out on your own. I did. You are. (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson48:29

       (laughs) Dude, it's f- it's fucking wild. Like, you know, I've been- I've- I've been fortunate enough to be around some of the-... highest status, r- richest people on the planet over the last few years since moving to America. All of them have got problems. All of them are fucked up.

   25. DSDavid Sutcliffe48:42

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson48:42

       And I was thinking, right, okay, well if that's, if that's the trajectory that everybody wants to be on, and you know for a fact that the people that are there have still got may- maybe even more of the problems. You know, they've, they've got layers of expectation and resentment and uncertainty and pressure and scrutiny and all of this stuff piled on top of them. And all of the shit that they had when they were still poor.

   27. DSDavid Sutcliffe49:03

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson49:04

       And there's just no... I- I am yet (laughs) I'm yet to find an effective way to communicate that external validation will not fill an internal void.

   29. DSDavid Sutcliffe49:16

       (inhales deeply) Yeah, that's how most of us orie- are oriented. That's what we see, you know, because they look so happy, you know, that we get this curated version of celebrities or influencers. But I, you know, I know the truth 'cause I was there in Hollywood. I saw what's going on. I was like, "These fucking people are crazy."

   30. CWChris Williamson49:34

       (laughs)
9. 56:26 – 1:09:26

   Feeling Unfulfilled by Hollywood

   1. CWChris Williamson56:26

      What was the moment for you when you kind of got to the, "Uh, I'm not sure that this is all it," thing when you were in Hollywood?

   2. DSDavid Sutcliffe56:38

      Um, I, I don't n- You know, it's, uh, I, I had, I had this great year where I had this television show. I had two movies. I was dating, uh, this, uh, very, uh, beautiful, uh, movie star. I had just bought this house. I was redoing it. I mean, I had everything, and it was upside everywhere that I looked, and I just had this, like, deep feeling of dissatisfaction. I wasn't really happy. I mean, I was, I was gratified in a way.

   3. CWChris Williamson57:09

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DSDavid Sutcliffe57:10

      And proud, but the, the, I wasn't satisfied, um, and I didn't know what that was. I didn't have the consciousness at the time to realize this wasn't where I was supposed to be, although, you know, although, uh, they, it had moments where it's, you know, I was on the set of Friends, I remember, and, uh, doing a guest spot and, you know, sitting on the, on the couch in the, the coffee shop, and there are all the friends, and it's kind of a surreal moment. It was early in my career. And, uh, at the time, they were making $750,000 an episode, and I'm just, you know, looking at them, taking all of that in. And I had this feeling, it's like, "I don't want this."

   5. CWChris Williamson57:51

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DSDavid Sutcliffe57:51

      And I didn't know what that was. I mean, it was a very clear thought, and I was like, "Is it, i- is that real, or is that just some fear of success that I'm having?" And it didn't really play out for another six or seven years, uh, and then it wasn't until I found something that really lit me up, uh, and I realized that the thing that I was searching for in acting, I found in this, uh, somatic psychotherapy. Like, everything that I wanted was in that, and the game that that was and, um, the, the container that it existed in, uh, was so exciting for me and creative. And, uh, at, at that point, then it was like, it was really simple. I just started to move in the direction of what I was most interested in.

   7. CWChris Williamson58:40

      Isn't it crazy when, uh, people have a, an inkling, uh, the sort of earliest murmurings of a realization, and you say, "And about six or seven years later, I actually was able to commit to that thing."

   8. DSDavid Sutcliffe58:54

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson58:54

      Yeah, man. It's, uh... I, uh ... Part of me thinks, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if we sort of had the courage of our convictions, and we were able to pull the pin and, and, and things would happen more quickly?" But then another part of me just thinks, "Uh, you can't, you can't realize things before you're ready to realize them in that way."

   10. DSDavid Sutcliffe59:15

       No, I had to go through it. I had to go through the process of letting go. I mean, my ego was incredibly attached. I mean, I came up, you know, you're an actor. You're trying to make it. You don't think you're gonna make it, or you, you, you know, may- maybe you have an intuition but you don't know, and then you make it. And you're working on television, you're getting lots of money, and people are recognizing you. I mean, you're, you're, you're just in this other world that so many people dream about, and your ego is just so elated. So then to have a thought like, "I don't really want this," it's like, "What? No. Hey, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is, like, a dream come true." Um, so it took, yeah, it took a long time for me d- to detach my ego, detach my identity. And all the, all the, you know, the validation that I was getting constantly, it just, you know, it, it fuels you. And I saw it, I saw it with other people, like, um, that I, I, I saw that they were, uh, as we talked about earlier, they were trapped. There was no way out for them. The amount of money that they were making and the fame they had, this is, this was... Whether they liked it or not, that was their life.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:19

       Well, I think a question (clears throat) , a good question to ask, and one that I think everybody can kind of, no matter what stage of success they're at, can think to themselves is, "Okay, how much would be enough?" Like, what would it be? Would it be one gold medal?

   12. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:00:34

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:34

       Well, how many gold medalists get one, and then they get gold medalist syndrome, and they think that they need two? Or, would it be one Super Bowl? Because there's guys that have got pretty much enough to fit on every finger on their hands-

   14. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:00:45

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:45

       ... would it be a interesting, uh, psychological study, uh, if you ask people what their ideal level of earning is, and actually we can do this, I guess the people that are listening can do this now. So if you think to yourself what level of earning would you get to, annual earning, where you would think, "Yeah, that's it. Like that's, I mean, that's really it for me." That number is almost definitely around about three times your annual income, regardless of what your annual income is.

   16. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:01:13

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:01:13

       And it scales all the way up.

   18. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:01:15

       Interesting.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

       So if you're making $100 grand a year, it's almost always about $300 grand a year. If you're making a million a year, it's almost always about $3 million a year. If you're- you're making $5 million a year, it's always, always about $15 million a year. It just keeps on getting to round about three times what you earn at the moment. But it doesn't stop.

   20. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:01:29

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:01:29

       It just keeps going. So ask yourself the question, what, okay, so what would be enough? Because we're not designed to be happy, we're designed to try as hard as we can.

   22. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:01:40

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:01:40

       And that's the game. The game is you will try harder. You are a donkey with a stick on your back with a carrot attached at the front, and every step that you take toward the carrot, the carrot is gonna move one step further away.

   24. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:01:53

       Well, the satisfaction is in- in the quest. You know, the, it's the climbing of the mountain that's most exciting, you get to the top and how long do you spend at the top? A couple of minutes, and before you start climbing down and then thinking about the next mountain you wanna climb. So I think, I- I- it's hard to orient that way because we're so goal-oriented, but if you can stay present in the moment and realize that it's like ... I mean, that's how it is for me. When I look back at Hollywood, the fond memories, yes, I have fond memories about shooting scenes and- and- and meeting c- certain actors and really nailing something and then seeing it on the screen and feeling proud.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:02:26

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:02:26

       But actually, it was the early years in LA when I was driving around to auditions, three auditions a day, and you know, all the- the kind of craziness of all of that. Like that part of the movie is my favorite, looking back on it. So it was- it was the journey, the moment before I made it was the most exciting.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:02:46

       The thing that's wild is, uh, y- I wanna get on to talking about presents, but, uh, even in the nostalgia of thinking about that time, your nostalgic memories will almost always be more enjoyable than the actual time themselves.

   28. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:03:00

       (laughs) Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:03:01

       Morgan- Morgan Housel tells this really brilliant, he's got an awesome, awesome article about nostalgia, everyone can look at it, it's Collaborative Fund, uh, and it's, I think it's called Nostalgia or Memories, it came up a couple of weeks ago. Uh, and he is talking to his wife now about, um, the golden years, what he called the golden years. I think they got together when they were maybe 23 or something, and they're living in Seattle or somewhere and they've just got their first apartment, they're living together, and, uh, they had no obligations, no kids. And he's reminiscing, he's talking to her about this now in their, you know, like 40s, and he says, "Yeah, you remember that? That was the golden years. We didn't have to work, we could lie in whenever we wanted, we could eat whatever we wanted, we were able to do... you know, what a brilliant time that was." Apparently his wife turned to him and said, "You were miserable."

   30. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:03:43

       (laughs)
10. 1:09:26 – 1:22:17

    What It Means to Be Present

    1. CWChris Williamson1:09:26

       a number of times. Uh, Sam Harris has been on this show, a number of different meditation teachers, they have a conception of presence. Um, what is it that you mean when you talk about being present?

    2. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:09:38

       Well, I- I guess I'd, uh, talk about it through the framework of- of my work, and it- it goes back a little bit what I was saying earlier about, um, we, uh, repress, you know, deny, shame, disassociate from certain aspects of ourself. Feelings, impulses, desires, needs. When we're children, we all do it. Um, and so in that place, we- we form a defense or maybe an idealized self-image or a mask, and that's sort of our operating system, uh, for the world, and we become identified with it and it feels like who we are. But very often there's, um, we hit a certain point in our life where things aren't working or- or, you know, we- we experience some frustration or dissatisfaction, we see patterns that are happening and they- they happen over and over again. At a certain point you realize, "Well, this- this must be me. There must be something going on in my unconscious that I have to confront because th- this, you know, I'm creating this." And so, what you know that you're, in that moment, that you're not- you're not present, right? You're not present with some aspect of yourself. There's something in your unconscious that's guiding you. And so the work for- for me is to help people, um, feel what they had to repress, right? Feel the- the pain, feel the rage, feel the fear, like feel it like literally in their body, like liberate all those emotions that we hold onto that are stuck there and creating the cognitive distortions. And so it's, for me, presence is an embodied experience. It's the willingness to, um, feel everything inside of us. Like, life happens and we have feelings, and there's a certain tendency to wanna control those feelings or manage those feelings. And- and I think that there's a wisdom in that, but if you do that from a state of, uh, repression or fear, it doesn't work. And so, in the place where I'm not present, let's say with my wife, it's because there's something inside me that I don't wanna face or feel. That's it. So that's the frame that I put on it, and the question I ask is, "Well, what is it that you're unwilling to feel?" Because it means that there's something in the present moment that scares you. Now, it might be irrational, it might not make sense to your conscious mind because you're a grown man, but it might be the fear of- of the child that- that's- that's coming up in that moment. And so, I work with presence, uh, y- you know, through people's emotions, through people's feelings and- and all the distortions that- that get created. Does that- does that make sense what I'm saying?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:12:23

       Yeah, it does. It does. It does. Does this, do we need to become stronger then in a way in order to be more present, more resilient, more powerful?

    4. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:12:35

       Stronger, more vulnerable, I think is really the- the work. It's, it- it, uh, because feeling feelings that scare us, uh, we're forced to be vulnerable. What does vulnerable mean? It, to me, it just means openness and- and- and truth, right? And so there's a strength that it requires in order to be vulnerable, and that was a reframe that I had to make for myself because I had all of those typical masculine images about what strength meant. Uh-And then I realized the, um, the strongest thing that I can do is to tell the truth and, and to reveal myself. Like, to, to be honest about what's actually going on inside me without shame. And, um, again, you know, going... (laughs) That, that creates all kinds of images. I mean, we can hear the men in your audience, you know, say, "Well, what? Are you supposed to feel all your feelings and..." Uh, you know. Well, it's not exactly that, but to be with them, to learn to be with, right? To learn to, uh, build a container for them. To, to not be ashamed of anything really, um, your light and your dark. Um, and I think it's... I, I think there's so much that... so many ways that we avoid vulnerability. We avoid... And, and, you know, showing our shadow, we avoid showing our pain, we avoid acknowledging our fear. And, and, and probably the deepest one for most people is we avoid feeling how much we love, because there's nothing more vulnerable than letting your, your love, your passion, your light, right? Like, shine through. Like, most people's major problem is they protect it, right? Because once you're all the way here with all of who you are, you're not in control anymore, right? Like, you're, you're completely exposed. That's the only way to be fully present in the world, is to be completely exposed. And most people are unwilling to tolerate that level of vulnerability, myself included. That's all I'm working on, (laughs) you know. Like, because that restriction I can see fractal out into all of the, the things in my life, right? It fractals out into my career. It fractals out into, you know, the work and how I'm approaching it. It fractals out into my relationship. So, really, for me, it becomes about one thing. It's like, can I, can I risk exposing, um, revealing, maybe is a better word, um, all of, of who I am, the good, the bad, the ugly?

    5. CWChris Williamson1:15:02

       I like the reframe around strength to show your vulnerabilities. I think... I don't know. Acknowledging your weaknesses is not the same to... It's not the same as surrendering to them.

    6. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:15:12

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:15:13

       And the only way to overcome your limitations is to actually know what they are.

    8. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:15:16

       That's right.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:15:17

       So, I don't think... I don't know. I, I, I still haven't been able to sort of fully thread the needle with the whole men's distaste for showing vulnerability and openness and stuff like that, because I don't think it's massively aspirational for m- Really, the guys... Even the guys that do it, I think there's still a sense of, like, fear and ick and concern and shame around it. And, um, I, I get the sense that in order for you to say something that a guy will want to go and do it, it needs to be two things at once. It needs to both understand the fact that they have difficulties and challenges but also not patronize them at the same time-

    10. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:12

        That's-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:16:12

        ... or make them feel weak. And that's a really difficult line to balance.

    12. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:19

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:16:19

        Unbelievably difficult.

    14. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:22

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:16:22

        Things are... Think- Things are hard for you, and you can get through them.

    16. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:26

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:16:26

        And I understand.

    18. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:27

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:16:27

        And I can support you, but you don't need the support. But it's there in case you need it.

    20. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:31

        (laughs) Right, right.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:16:32

        You know? It's like, you know, you're permanently having to fucking caveat your way around the fragile masculine ego.

    22. DSDavid Sutcliffe1:16:36

        Yeah. Well, you know what? It's, it's, it's great. I- i- it... All you really... All people need is for feel- their feelings to be validated. "I understand why you'd be scared." That's usually enough. "I understand why your heart is broken." Like, not, "Get over it, motherfucker. There's another girl out there for you." It's like... And that... You know, that's, that's how I approach all of my sessions with people. It's like they, they have a story about what happened to them. I'm not necessarily validating their interpretation of events, but I'm validating their feeling, their, their experience of that event. And because that's real for them. I mean, you can't argue with somebody's feelings. And so once they're... once they feel seen and acknowledged in their feelings, I think that creates a kind of a safety and a resonance that then they can meet- go meet the challenge or take responsibility. But until that happens, for a lot of people, they're- they get stuck in the feeling, right? And, um, they don't... They can't move past it, and they attach it to a story. So, I mean, that- that's... It's as- and it's as simple as that. Just acknowledge your feelings within yourself. That's all you have to do. "I'm sad." "That's it. That's- You're good, bro." You know? "This girl broke up with me. My heart is broken." It's like, "That's fine." You know? Just, just acknowledge it within yourself and be with that for a second. Don't, don't, um, uh, romanticize it. Uh, don't succumb to it. Uh, don't indulge it. But be with it. Like, of course your heart's gonna break. I mean, are you human if your heart's not gonna break? I mean, it's a beautiful thing to have a broken heart. Like, let yourself be in that experience of it, right?

Episode duration: 1:22:54