How To Stop Living Life In Your Head - Jonny Miller

Chris Williamson 0:00 Why is it so hard to feel feelings?

Jonny Miller 0:04 (laughs) Ah, jumping right in. Um, I mean, we both grew up in England and I think, you know, we're kind of known for having a stoic, keep calm, carry on, uh, mantra in- in our culture. And I think that, I- I- I mean speaking for myself, I grew up... What I realize now is I was, like, numb from the neck down. I- I was really out of touch with so much of what was going on outside of my intellect. And it's really been, you know, the last, like, five, five or six years that I've come back into appreciating this, like, um, the- the diff- like, flavors that are going on inside, inside my system. So, I mean, I'd also be curious if, like, for you, what- what has your journey with feeling emotions been like? Like, do you consider yourself as someone who, you know, we both went to, uh, Newcastle, Durham, like, up there, it's- it's not, it's not cool to kind of express emotions in public. What- what's your journey?

Chris Williamson 1:03 Yeah, standing on the front door of a nightclub isn't exactly a hotbed of talking about feeling feelings.

Jonny Miller 1:08 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08 Um, and, yeah, there's a lot of expectation, I think, about being a young guy, um, that wants to be attractive and- and competent and have mastery and- and, you know, is sort of competing with other people, other guys, especially in an industry like nightlife. And, um, yeah, emotions are kind of a- a sign of weakness. Um, I got really disappointed with the "It's Okay To Talk" campaign that happened in the UK. I thought that that was just so ridiculous and telling guys, "It's okay to talk," like, what does that mean? What does it mean, "It's okay to talk"? They haven't got... Th- they don't know what they're feeling. I didn't know what I was, I don't know what I'm feeling much of the time. I, you know, I think I had a small, and probably still do, a small number of buckets of emotions that I kind of default to. It sort of snaps across into one of a bunch, so very competent at feeling anxiety, very competent at feeling worry, getting better at feeling excitement, but, you know, distinguishing, "Okay, so what are we talking about? Is this, is this, uh, restlessness? Is this resentment? Is it bitterness? Is it frustration? Is it anger? Is it..." You know, like really kind of breaking apart the component notes of emotions. There's just a few that I seem to snap to in terms of a default, uh, and one of the main reasons that I wanted to have this conversation with you in particular is, between the UK and the US, there is so much turmoil at the moment. Like, the- the entire world just feels like it's up in the air, changes in political party and you should care about this thing and climate change and all the rest of it, and so much of that is outside, but so much of that is impacting the way that we feel internally. And I think it's nice, I- I like believing that, you know, I'm a stoic ship in a storm and I'm not gonna move and it, you know, the world out there isn't gonna hurt me and all the rest of it. Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 2:58 I can David Goggins myself for long enough.

Chris Williamson 3:00 Mm-hmm. (laughs) But it feels to me like that's swimming upstream rather than swimming downstream. Like, the world is out there, it is going to have an impact on you. Just allow yourself to absorb that, work out how to work with emotions, how to regulate your nervous system, and how to actually start using emotions to inform decisions, to make you a better person, as opposed to just, like, gripping really, really hard and going, "No, fuck you, I'm not a pussy. Emo- emo- emotions are for bitches."

Jonny Miller 3:28 (laughs) Yeah, I mean, I- I- I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here. Um, I think that part of the issue is that we've confused what, uh, s- let's, I mean, let's say anger's, I think, a pretty good example. Like, when people are aggressive or, like, um, using anger to manipulate a situation or, um, have their own way, we- we kind of see that as being a bad thing, or- or anger, when it's kinked can- can really hurt people. And I think it- it's- it's really kind of coming into, um, for me, for me at least, it was like, like, "What are the sensations that are here and how can I allow them to kind of move through me and be expressed and not get kinked?" And this is something that, um, Joe Hudson talks about, who I think's been on your show as well, and if it gets kinked one way, it gets repressed and it's like, like, "I'm not angry," like, it- it just kind of turns into this, like, low-level passive aggression. Um, and when it gets kinked the other way, it's, like, aggressive, it's, like, anger at someone, and both are kind of strategies for not feeling the thing. Like, it's both, both, like, protection mechanisms that we've learned when we were growing up to avoid feeling whatever that emotion is.

Chris Williamson 4:35 Is that where you think much of emotional numbness comes from, then? A lack of safety? Uh, an emotion arises and someone doesn't feel safe in feeling it, so they repress it? Wh- what have you learned on your trajectory about the origins of emotional numbness?

Jonny Miller 4:51 Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it comes from learning that it wasn't safe to express when we were young. So, um, for me, I was, I was, like, bullied as a kid. There were, um, times when I w- was, you know, sad and I was like, you know, friends were like, "That's not okay." Same with anger. And I think it- it really does come down to feeling safe in our bodies and having permission from ourselves and other people that it's, that it's okay to feel.

Chris Williamson 5:19 Can you think your way into feeling?

Jonny Miller 5:25 This is a good question. I- I mean, I- I think it's- it's really helpful as a starting point to become kind of intellectually aware of what's going on, and this is where, you know, talk therapy has- has such a great role of understanding that there are emotions here. But if it stays on that level of intellectual, kind of, um, I- I, like, "I think I'm angry," but you're not actually feeling the thing, then it causes this, like, emotional loop, and that's, th- I think that's honestly what people are afraid of, is going into something and then they get trapped and they get stuck there.And the, the principles of nervous system regulation are not that you don't feel the things, but you d- you don't get stuck in any one state. So, you don't get stuck in anger, you don't get stuck in sadness and the, the life cycle or the reflex of an emotion is, you know, usually anywhere between, like, 10 to 20 seconds, but it just gets looped, almost like a Velcro, Velcro thought. It gets looped if we're not able to actually feel it, but we're just in the story of what the emotion is. And this is something that I see a lot when I- I do breath work. And you can see when someone is, like, they're up in their head and there's- maybe there's some emotion going on, but their- their awareness is really with the story. And it's- it's really just a case of, like, dropping down into the body and, like, what is... What- what's here? And- and getting in contact with the sensations.

Chris Williamson 6:44 This is one of the reasons I really have been on a big push over the last few months to try and talk about this. I think I'm probably a pretty good figurehead for lots of the people in the audience, of someone that spends way too much time in their head, likes the idea of-

Jonny Miller 6:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:58 ... being sort of rational and cerebral and cognitive and, "I play with ideas," and i- i- that's very, very fun to me. And that can be, uh, a bit of a trap because building up your curiosity and your intellect can cause you to almost armor yourself against feeling things, I think.

Jonny Miller 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:18 And, um, yeah, certainly a lot of my friends, a lot of my very, very smart friends are actually trying to actively down-tune their brain from stepping in-

Jonny Miller 7:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:29 ... to feeling things. And they're trying to sort of get out of their own way, so this is one of the reasons that I was really keen to talk to you. I know that you've done an awful lot of work in this. One of the topics that I've been obsessed by since I started the podcast was high-agency humans, so can you talk to me about the relationship between emotions, feeling feelings, and having high agency? Because I- I don't think that that is immediately apparent.

Jonny Miller 7:52 Mm. Totally, yeah. And, um, I love that you used the word curiosity, and that's- that's something that I think was the- the kind of gateway drug in for me, was, like, in- in my early 20s I was so curious about ideas, I did philosophy at Durham, I was, like, so curious about the world around me. And at some point, that curiosity turned inwards and I started getting curious about, like, my inner landscape and how that connects to this high-agency idea. Um, I feel like, for me, high agency is- is almost synonymous with being intentional. It's like, can I have, like, a- an impulse or an idea or something that I want to execute in the world, som- something that I want to do, and it's, like, following through with that intention? And for me, what gets in the way of intentionality are- are reactive tendencies. So if I, let's say, have an intention to ask a girl out or have an intention to start a business, but the- the intensity of that situation causes me to either kind of go into anxiety, overwhelm, worry or kind of collapse and shut down, which are these two kind of reactive modes, then it's gonna be really hard for me to, um, to follow through with any of these intentions. And- and thereby I will be a low, low-agency human. And so a lot of what I've been thinking about are, like firstly, how can you, how can you identify the kind of, the somatic markers for these reactive tendencies upstream? So before I go to, like, a level 10 panic attack, I'm like, "Okay, I'm noticing there's this, like, tightness in my chest. The last time that happened, I ended up, like, yeah, breathing into a bag." Like... (laughs) Um, or, you know, maybe it's like a feeling in my gut and like, "Okay, last time that happened I went into, like, a collapse." And so that's one strategy, and then the second is practices for literally expanding your- your capacity, so expanding your capacity to be with intensity. And those are two traits which I believe, if cultivated, will accelerate people to be more high, high-agency humans and be able to live more intentionally, which is ultimately what I care about. I- I think that's what I'm, that's what I'm most passionate about sharing with the world and cultivating for myself.

Chris Williamson 10:09 That's great. I- I- I really haven't thought about that before and I've, me and George have thought about high agency for six years now.

Jonny Miller 10:15 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:16 We spoke about it. We were on, uh, we were on Broadway, on Nashville, yesterday and, uh, talking a ton about it, but I've never considered before that your emotional governor, like your speed limiter on a car, um, this thing steps in and you can have all of the intentionality, all of the agency in the world that you want.

Jonny Miller 10:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:35 But again, it- it comes back to swimming upstream versus swimming downstream for me. Do you want to make life easier? 'Cause you can probably get there. Hormozi does. Like Alex is-

Jonny Miller 10:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:46 Alex fucking hates many of his, uh, work sessions, but he'll grit his teeth and get through it.

Jonny Miller 10:50 Yep.

Chris Williamson 10:50 And I think that a lot of people have been very seduced. Me, me too, and I support it. The David Goggins, Jocko Willink, like just fucking grind and get it done, like, that's good because it allows you to kind of blast through all of these restrictions that have been placed in front of you. I'm worried about going over and speaking in front of this business meeting. I've got a job, uh, interview this week and I'm terrified to go and do it. So instead of working into the emotion, feeling it and then trying to deconstruct that so that it doesn't have the same hold over you, what you use is the classic type A solution, which is just a big fuck off sledgehammer.

Jonny Miller 11:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:27 You beat it to death and it's, like, on the floor. You know, it's- it's like a hydra or something. You know, you beat it, you can't kill it, but it's- it's down and out for now and you've just used-

Jonny Miller 11:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:37 ... grit and determination and resilience and you've got through.

Jonny Miller 11:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:40 But the next time that you go to go and do the thing, I think it's much more likely-

Jonny Miller 11:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:43 ... that that's going to arise. I don't think that that's a long-term solution to this problem.

Jonny Miller 11:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:48 So first off, I absolutely love that, and thinking about using your nervous system as a cue to, "Okay, so w- what is it that I'm, what is it that I'm feeling in my body?" And this isn't woo, you hold trauma in your left hip stuff. I think Bessel van der Kolk's really great book, the title, I think, probably did a lot of disservice and confused a lot of people who'd never read it and made assumptions-

Jonny Miller 12:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:14 ... about what was in the book. But, uh-

Jonny Miller 12:16 Okay.

Chris Williamson 12:16 ... yeah, the body, the body keeps...... the body informs you, not necessarily the body keeps-

Jonny Miller 12:21 The-

Chris Williamson 12:21 ... the score in that way.

Jonny Miller 12:22 The body is the scorecard, according to Lisa Feldman Barrett, which I think is a more accurate, more accurate description.

Chris Williamson 12:26 She's coming on the show. I just confirmed it for September.

Jonny Miller 12:29 Nice. Fantastic.

Chris Williamson 12:30 Um, okay, so just dig in a little bit more this sort of restriction in high-agency v- to nervous system-

Jonny Miller 12:40 Mm.

Chris Williamson 12:40 ... uh, relationship. Like, how, how is someone's, uh, nervous system going to inform them when they're stepping in to go and do something?

Jonny Miller 12:49 Yeah, so, um, I mean, firstly, I just wanna comment on the, the Goggins kind of Jocko paradigm 'cause I, I think it's a really good example and I, it's actually, it's a really important thing to, to talk about. And, uh, like, when we're, when we're trying to do these, these, th- achieve our goals in life, like start a business, whatever the thing is, the options are, like you can either... Let, let's, let's say some, some emotion, some resistance comes up. You can either up your willpower or you can use things like, you know, breath work to self-regulate and down, down regulate the emotion away. And that, in the short term, is a viable strategy. Like, it will allow you to continue functioning as if whatever that emotion was, was never there. But in the long term, it, it adds allostatic load into the system, which I call emotional debt, and at some point, depending on people's respective levels of capacity, that emotional debt will get to a certain point where it will cause the nervous system to be so fragile that our, um, will become much more easily overwhelmed and it, it will require even more willpower, even more self-regulation to, to get rid of whatever that thing is we don't wanna feel. And so for, for some people, I think they can, you know, viably go for like, 5, 10, 15, maybe even 20 years like, in that kind of sledgehammer mindset. But at some point, and these are a lot of the founders and, and execs that I work with, that strategy stops, and I, I call it like the, the feather brick dump truck analogy. Like, your, your body will give you, maybe it's like a tickling with a feather, and you're like, "Ah," just like, like brush that off. Maybe there's a brick, maybe it's a breakup, maybe it's like, uh, I don't know, you, you lose a business deal or you, you get exhausted one day. And then sometime, it's eventually gonna be a dump truck, which might be like a chronic illness or it might be like you just wake up one morning and you literally cannot get out of bed. And that's, at, at least that's what I've seen with the clients that I've worked with. I've kind of been through burnout myself. Um, and so to kinda come back to the, the going upstream piece, um, the, having a practice for building what's known as interoception, which is basically how aware of your inner landscape are you. Like, to what degree, um, is it like a kind of like vague, I think there's this, you know, sensation going on, or can you, do you have this like high definition clarity over the different sensations and somatic markers that you have? 'Cause every time you have an emotion, it's not just a thought. A, a lot of people think, "Oh, I'm angry because I have this story that this guy was a dick to me." But with every emotion, there's, there's a corresponding kind of somatic marker, according to Damasio. And if we can... And often these somatic markers pop up before we're consciously aware that there is an emotion in the system. And so by practicing interoception, which can be done in any number of ways, um, we're attuning to this like, uh, repository of data that otherwise we would be ignoring.

Chris Williamson 15:47 This is the trap of the rational, cognitive, like, left brain person, I think. This-

Jonny Miller 15:56 Mm.

Chris Williamson 15:56 ... sort of desire to understand and to explain, and the problem is that that, it can become a trap. It, I first learned what you said about, um, emotions lasting this very short half-life, you know, way shorter than we would presume, from Sam Harris-

Jonny Miller 16:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:10 ... and he said, "Try to remain angry without thinking about being angry." And it-

Jonny Miller 16:14 Mm.

Chris Williamson 16:14 ... just comes-

Jonny Miller 16:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:15 ... and then it goes. But this-

Jonny Miller 16:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:17 ... story that you tell yourself, that anger can last for months. You know, like, resentment and bitterness and that story, and I would've said that, and if they'd said that, I would've said this, and they would've looked at me and they would've known.

Jonny Miller 16:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:27 And you go, "Oh my God. What is this? This weird s- like sex fantasy thi- like, like, resentment s- revenge sex, like a fucking John Wick movie playing out in your head but it-"

Jonny Miller 16:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:38 "... it's linguistic between you and somebody else. It's so strange." And, um, yeah. I think just accepting that, accepting the bizarreness, and most importantly, realizing that that's not the way that it has to be. Uh.

Jonny Miller 16:50 Mm.

Chris Williamson 16:50 Now, I'm, I'm speaking completely hypothetically here because I'm totally captured by all of this stuff.

Jonny Miller 16:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:55 But, um, I've been told, I've been reliably told-

Jonny Miller 16:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:58 ... by people that have done more self-work than me that this isn't

Chris Williamson 17:00 the way that it has to be. So ta- uh, let's, let's get into the nervous system. Talk to me about-

Jonny Miller 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:04 ... the modes of reactivity in the nervous system.

Jonny Miller 17:06 Mm. Yeah, sure. Well, um, I mean, I, I'm glad you brought up Sam Harris 'cause he has this, this wonderful phrase that I love. And this is in the context of meditation but he talks about reducing the half-life of reactivity. I think that's like a really good way to put it because, like, progress in this arena is not like, "I never get angry." It's not, "I never, you know, I never get reactive." It's, it's, "I'm not reactive for like three days." Like you said, it's like from three days, maybe it's down to like five hours, down to an hour, down to like, maybe five or ten minutes. And I, so, so I think that's what progress looks like. Um, and, and what I found helpful is understanding these, these different modes of reactivity. Um, there's typically two responses that humans have to stresses that are beyond their window of tolerance, like outside of their capacity. One response is hyper-arousal, which looks anything, looks like frustration, looks like anxiety, looks like, uh, maybe, maybe aggression, um, that, like, that kind of like the sympathetic branch of the nervous system is getting so kind of over, like overwhelmed that we struggle to stay present, we s- we struggle to, um, like be, like, re- receiving whatever the situation is. So that's hyper-arousal, and then.The other side is, uh, kind of associated with the parasympathetic side of the nervous system. It's like- like a shutdown. So, when some people go into a stressful response, their system will collapse, it will shut down or it will freeze. And so that's almost like the- the emergency handbrake is being pulled on the system. And, you know, people will often feel, like, guilty or shameful about this. Like maybe there's a- a situation where they really had to show up and they- it- it's like the choke. It's like th- there's a literal freeze response. Um, and this is obviously, both of these are on a spectrum. Like, it's not like we go from, like, nought to 100 sometimes. But being aware of the- the early signs when we're kind of on the edge of that, on the edge of our capacity, let's say. So that we can be like, "Oh, right, like I'm feeling like I'm kind of being pulled out of- of my- my intentionality. What can I do to either..." And this is where I think there is a- a choice point. Either do some form of self-regulation, wh- uh, just like a simple, like, a sympathetic sigh. It could be a, um, well just grounding. It could be like looking at a wide horizon, doing some breathing, affirmations, like top-down or bottom-up, um, either way. Or if it's like i- uh, if it's a suitable environment, it's feel the thing. It's like allow whatever this emotion that I'm resisting to just, like, flow through me. And maybe you just, like- like shout at a- a wall or maybe you let, like- let a couple of tears come through. And- and as we were just saying, that can, you know, that can last, like 20, 30 seconds and then you're like, "Oh." Like, "Oh my God, I feel- I feel so much better." And so I- and so I think part of the- the skill here is both learning the tools and practices for both the emotional fluidity and the self-regulation, and then being able to apply them at a relevant time- time or context.

Chris Williamson 20:12 So it feels like there's three main skills that people need here. The interoception, the self-regulation, and the emotional fluidity. Uh, is that the- are they the three horsemen of the regulation apocalypse?

Jonny Miller 20:26 (laughs) 100%. And I'd s- I'd say m- maybe there's a fourth which is, um, environment design. And I think of this idea of, like, we design our environments and our environments design us in return. And so th- there's ways that you can remove unnecessary ambient stresses from your environment.

Chris Williamson 20:41 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 20:41 But, um, but broadly speaking, I think those three. And I do- I also think in that order as well, 'cause if you don't have interoception, you're not gonna know when the right time to self-regulate or feel an emotion is. So that's- that's like, you need that as a- as a foundation. And then the self-regulation, emotional fluidity come on top of that as you- as you progress.

Chris Williamson 21:03 Okay. Let's go through

Chris Williamson 21:04 them then. Interoception, self-regulation, emotional fluidity. Let's start off, how can people improve their interoception?

Jonny Miller 21:11 Yeah. So, wha- what I love about this is you can- you can really do it in- in any moment. Like, um, I find it helpful to have both, like... I mean, I- I don't do this so much anymore, but I used to have like a morning practice that was like a meditation, but it was really just like a check-in. It was like me asking, like, "How's the weather right now?" And I had this acronym APE, which, uh, stood for awareness, posture, emotion. And I just kind of go through those things like- like how is- how is my awareness? Is it, like, expanded? Is it kinda contracted? Um, posture, like, literally like what is- how is my body right now? And then emotion. And for me, emotion i- is kind of like what sensations am I feeling, what am I noticing? Is there, like, tightness here? Am I hungry? Am I sleepy? What's- what's the mood? What's the tone? And just doing those, like, micro check-ins at least once a day, and ideally, you know, maybe when you're... I started doing it when I was lifting weights, so like really as I was doing a- a deadlift, like really tuning in to all of the tiny little, like, muscle components, and particularly my breath as well, and really gaining like much more definition over what was going on. Um, but you can really do it at- at any time. And it's- and it's particularly helpful in moments when you're activated in some way.

Chris Williamson 22:25 So let's say that you are activated. What's the process that somebody goes through?

Jonny Miller 22:32 To- to improve interoception or to... So, I mean, usually when someone's activated, uh, if they are in- if they're in hyper-arousal, then chances are they- they won't want to intercept because there will be so much going on inside the body, they will likely be looking for some kind of distraction, maybe scrolling on the phone. Some form of, like, numbing, protective strategy. Um, I wouldn't necessarily recommend, like, going in too much. It- it- it's- it's better to- to kind of downshift the system until you're at a place where like, "Okay, I feel like I'm good." And then kind of tuning in. And also noticing the difference, um, before and after doing some form of practice. I think this is particularly good with- with breath work, because you can, you know, you can tune in, be like, "Okay, I took a mental check of how I feel." Do some breath work practice, maybe, like, um, a sigh or humming or 448 breathing, and then afterwards you tune in and you're like, "Wow, I feel- I feel so much different." And that kind of before and after noticing I think helps to really make it a habit and helps you realize, "Oh, this bottom-up practice is really having a noticeable effect on- on my nervous system, and therefore how I feel." So I'm more likely to do it again, as opposed to just saying, "Oh, Huberman said that this downregulates my nervous system, so I'm just gonna do it."

Chris Williamson 23:51 Yeah, the positive reinforcement of actually feeling better, and checking in and going, "Wow, I did- I did that thing and it worked." Th- this is such a- ... such a great point. Can't remember whether it was Huberman or Mike Israetel that said this, where going to the gym and getting a pump is one of the very few pursuits where you actually get to front-load your progress while you're doing the thing. So you-

Jonny Miller 24:12 Mm. Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:12 ... with a pump is what you in six months wants to look like flat.

Jonny Miller 24:16 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:16 Uh, but it's not like in the middle of a Spanish lesson you suddenly get three X your-...lingo, and are now able to bring it into the present and go, "Oh, wow, in six months if I keep going, this is the amount of Spanish-

Jonny Miller 24:30 That'd be nice.

Chris Williamson 24:30 ...I'm going to be able to speak." Yeah, no, no, it's bullshit.

Jonny Miller 24:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:32 Um, so I'd- I'd like the sort of positive reinforcement. Uh, what else to say about increasing interoception? What else haven't we covered?

Jonny Miller 24:40 Well, j- just to kind of like follow that thread, I think, um, the way that I... And this comes back to the high-agency point, the way that I think about this journey is- is- is- as a series of like self-experiments. So I- I have this like- this idea of like N- like be an N-of-one, be a scientist of your own experience. And for all of these practices, or whether it's interoception, whether it's forms of breathwork, whether it's somatic approaches to feeling an emotion, like go in with like a- like a literal hypothesis. Like, "I'm gonna try this thing. I'm gonna notice how I feel before, I'm gonna notice how I feel during, and then I'm gonna like take an inventory and then reflect afterwards." And like, "Did it work? Do I feel better? What would I do differently next time? Um, was this interesting?" And- and going in with this, um, I- I call it like courageous curiosity of like being willing, like being open but still being willing to like move or embrace some form of intensity, I think is like- is like ph- so fucking foundational to- to all of this work. And if you just embrace that mindset, and run enough experiments, eventually you will get to interesting places. Um, I- I totally-

Chris Williamson 25:51 What are some... What are some of the mantras that you rely on? Is there something that you come back to-

Jonny Miller 25:55 Mm.

Chris Williamson 25:55 ...where you're thinking, "I- I- I really need to go inside." Is this- is there a little- a bunch of sayings that you rely on for that?

Jonny Miller 26:02 Oh, interesting. Um, I... Let's see. There were- there were two that I think I've used that come to mind. One is this idea of, uh, "Take it to the mat." And this was during a breathwork training I did, where the idea that, um... I remember I was like- I was really pissed off and triggered by something that my teacher said, and, um, this phrase, "Take it to the mat," which was part of the training came to mind. And it- it's this idea that, like, the thing that triggered me on the surface, it actually wasn't about that. And I did a- I did a breathwork journey like 30 minutes later, and this whole thing moved that was like from, you know, 10, 20 years ago. Um, and s- and so this idea of, like, the things that we are annoyed by, frustrated by, that we're, like, angry at, it's- it's almost always like a signpost to something inside that... Like some experience we had prior that just wasn't... Like a- a- an emotional reflex that wasn't able to be fully completed. And so this idea of take it to the mat is like- like really finding some degree of gratitude. Like maybe not right away, but like if someone says something that really sticks, like i- they insult you in a way that really lands, it's like, "Oh, that's actually a gift in a way, because I get to go inside and- and feel whatever that was related to." Um, and then the second one... The second one was, um... This kind of came to me more in like the- the grief kind of chapter of my life, and this was just, "I am willing." And I would say this when- when the like tidal wave of intensity of grief was- was kind of moving through, um, I- I realized, or at least I have this theory that the five stages of grief were actually five ways in which we resist grief. Whether it's like denial or, um, all- all of that. And so for me, this mantra of like, "I am willing," it was like, "I am willing to just like feel and experience and let this like tidal wave of intensity move through me." And that was- that was really- really helpful, um, in particularly in some of like the tougher moments for me.

Chris Williamson 28:12 Can you take us through that story, kind of what triggered you on this journey?

Jonny Miller 28:18 Mm. Yeah, sure. So I was, um, living in Brighton, in the UK. Uh, I was engaged at the time to an amazing woman called Sophie Spooner, she was a junior doctor. And she... Uh, we- we went on holiday, and she'd been diagnosed with bipolar before we got together. And her first day back at work, she had an anxiety attack, and she ended up coming home and taking her own life. And that was... I was in Portugal at the time when I got the phone call, and that basically, uh... I mean, it just- it just obliterated me. It like completely destroyed, you know, the vision for life that I had for the next five years. And I'd never... I- you know, I- I'd had a pretty easy life. I'd like went to- went to school in England. Like nothing really tragic or- or bad had happened to me, and it was the first time that I was really confronted by- by something that was just, um, like unspeakably tragic. And so- and so for me, I- I remember seeing adults, like I remember seeing people in the UK who, uh... Like family members who'd lost someone close to them but they hadn't grieved. They hadn't really allowed that grief to move through. And they were this like, just like a shell, like a husk of a human being, you know. Like kind of glazed eyes, like resentful, cynical. And I remember thinking, like knowing my lack of attunement to my own kind of emotional landscape, I remember thinking like, "I'll probably end up like that, like that resentful, bitter person if I don't allow... If I don't really kind of intentionally feel this." And so, I kind of went on a mission of sorts to be like, "Okay, I'm just gonna quit my job, like just give myself like a year to move through this, um, in- in any way that I could." And so that was like I did a 10-day vipassana, um, pretty soon after it was some plant medicine, it was breathwork, it was going back to the places that had that like, um, like h- h- almost had- had these like horcruxes of grief that I go back to places that were meaningful. And...... yeah, and, and that, um, over kind of that period, it, it totally changed my life. Like, it was a, uh, very much, like, before and after kind of rite of passage experience.

Chris Williamson 30:43 Dude, I'm sorry you went through that. It reminds me of that Carl Jung quote where he says, uh, "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate."

Jonny Miller 30:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:57 And that's kind of like those people who have had some incident, or maybe not just one incident, maybe just a, a sort of compounding of lots of small, um, molestations on their emotional health.

Jonny Miller 31:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:11 And, uh, they just keep repeating these same patterns. They seem to kind of be controlled by this thing. It's not them, but it's becoming-

Jonny Miller 31:20 Mm.

Chris Williamson 31:20 ... a part of them. It's almost like being emotionally, uh-

Jonny Miller 31:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:23 ... parasitized, right? You've got this thing living in you-

Jonny Miller 31:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:27 ... that isn't you but is controlling you. It's the-

Jonny Miller 31:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:29 ... Toxoplasma gondii of, uh, of, of emotions. It's so funny.

Jonny Miller 31:34 Mm, mm, yeah. And, and so, so k- kind of what, what comes to mind, and, um, yeah, there's maybe two things I wanna share. One is that when the, the grief was, like, fully able to move through, um, it went from being this very, like, uncomfortable thing that I was kind of running from to, oh, this just feels like, it feels like pure love. Like, I, there was this moment when I was on her memorial bench, and just kind of s- tearing my eyes out, just like bawling my eyes out. And there was this moment that, like, I was like, if I didn't have the story that I'd just lost someone very close to me, I would think I was in, like, I was on MDMA. I would think I was in this, like, ecstatic state. Um, and, and I think for me that the two, the two practices that I had that allowed me to kind of build that emotional fluidity, one was swimming in, in Brighton in the ocean in the, like, fucking freezing cold water. And you know how i- you, when you first get into, like, freezing water, I'm, I'm, I, I, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sure you're familiar. It's like everything tenses up. You're like, "Ah," you just, like, wanna resist it. And then slowly, if you can, like, almost like a clenched fist, if you just, like, slowly, like, soften that resistance and, like, let it in, it's, like, not so bad. Then eventually it's like, "Oh, this is, this is actually quite nice. Like, I could be here for a while." And that same, that same kind of process, which I also then applied to free diving, where, again, it's a similar thing, where the deeper you dive down underwater, the more pressure there is from the ocean and the more, like, constricted, literally, like, your, your organs shrink because of the ai- the air pressure or the, the ocean pressure. And everything inside gets super tight. And if in that moment you can kind of drop down into your body and be like, "Okay, I'm, like, noticing my stomach is, like, really, really tight," and just, like, soften that, then it allows you to equalize. And you can then kind of sink even deeper. And so that for me almost became like a, like a metaphor or, or a training ground for the same with, with the grief, the same with the emotions. And so I kind of applied the same, like, move of noticing the tension and the contraction, like the, the closed fist and just being like, "Ah," just, like, soften slightly, and that would allow a little bit more to move.

Chris Williamson 33:46 Mm.

Jonny Miller 33:46 And I really think that's a, I mean, for me it's been a really powerful metaphor for the, the process of gradually titrating and welcoming even more intensity that I previous, previously would have shut down or just been like, like, "No fucking way."

Chris Williamson 34:02 Okay, so that's interoception. Self-regulation next. What is there to know?

Jonny Miller 34:08 Yeah, so self-regulation is, um, I mean, it's c- it's like a therapeutic term, but basically it's like how can you increase a embodied sense of safety and, uh, parasympathetic downshift in the moment? So m- my favorite pr- like, some people use, like, mantras, affirmations, maybe like a, you know, cognitive refrains. Um, but these are, like, top-down strategies for, for self-regulation. Um, I tend to prefer the bottom-up approaches, so things like humming is, is insanely effective. Uh, it releases nitric oxide. It has this, um, really, really instantaneous kind of calming effect. Um, the sigh obviously as Huberman talks about. Um, also things like 4-4-8 breathing or alternate nostril breathing, or even just, like, um, bringing your awareness, like, bring your awareness down into your, your feet or your hands. And, like, being reminded of the space around you, so just, like, expanding your awareness to the sides, b- below you, above you, and it's just like, "Ah," like, you, you feel like a sense of softening. So-

Chris Williamson 35:12 Let's dig into-

Jonny Miller 35:13 ... this is some-

Chris Williamson 35:13 ... let's, let's dig into the specifics of a few of those-

Jonny Miller 35:17 Okay.

Chris Williamson 35:17 ... whichever ones you want to pick.

Jonny Miller 35:20 Sure. Yeah, so s- let's say, um, 4-4-8 breathing, which the, the exhale is twice as long as the inhale. That's kind of what makes it calming. And when you're breathing in this way, there's a part of your brain, um, uh, in the, in the insula which is basically tracking how you're breathing, uh, the w- the whole time. And when you breathe in this particular way, it sends signals to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which then sends signals to your endocrine system, which then feeds back into your brain. And your brain's like, "Oh, like, the threat's gone. Like, I can, I can be, be more chill," which then creates calmer thoughts and feelings. So there's this kind of virtuous cycle. Um, and the reverse is also true. Like, if you're, when, when you're overwhelmed, when you're stressed, there tends to be a kind of breathing into the, the upper chest where there's more sympathetic, um, neurons. There's faster breathing often through the mouth, and that has the reverse effect. So that will activate the sympathetic system, which then sends, you know, a- adrenaline things into the endocrine system, which then sends, which creates the, the story and the f- th- the felt sense and the emotions of like, "Oh, shit," like, whatever it is, "I'm activated"-

Chris Williamson 36:31 Not safe.

Jonny Miller 36:31 ... which then, "I'm not safe." That's kind of what it comes down to. Yeah. Um, so the breath is, is a-... incredibly powerful tool for pr- like, very, very quickly shifting your state. Like, eith- either upregulating or downregulating. And there's, you know, there's a lot of times when upregulating is also helpful, like, if you're feeling lethargic in the morning and you don't wanna drink another espresso or you just wanna increase the intensity. Um, so unders- and, and, and the key, the key thing there is when the inhale is more intense or longer than the exhale, it's activating. When the exhale is longer or more relaxing, uh, s- sorry, longer or just more emphasized, then it's, it's calming.

Chris Williamson 37:13 How many rounds of four, four, eight?

Jonny Miller 37:17 Until you feel a shift. Yeah. Um, usually at least, at least three or four. Uh, sometimes more if you're, if you're really activated. And the other thing that can, can be, um, really helpful is breathing into the belly against some resistance. So you can either lie down face forward on a hard surface and, like, take a full breath in, like a s- a sigh, and then just allow the, the exhale to s- just, like, just, like, completely fall out. Or I'll sometimes do it against, um, like, one of those Swiss balls. I'll, like, breathe into that and then the, the pressure will, like, push the air out of my lower diaphragm. And it's, man, it's, it's so calming. It's really good after, you know, after, like, a long day or after whatever's, whatever's coming up. It's, it's so effective.

Chris Williamson 38:02 I saw a tweet from you saying that maybe the solution to all of our emotional problems is just fucking humming. What, what do you know about that?

Jonny Miller 38:09 (laughs) Um, yeah, there was, uh, one, one, one of the students in my cohort posted a video of him, uh, holding his, like, six-month-old baby who was crying and he, he, like, hummed for, like, 30 seconds and the baby just went, like, "Shh," just, like, super, super quiet. Um, what is happening is the, the humming is releasing nitric oxide in our, um, in our system. Um, and that nitric oxide is a vasodilator, which basically has this inc- like, calming effect. And it's also really good for reducing, um, eye strain or eye fatigue. So, yeah, I mean, you can do it for, like, 30 seconds and if you wanna amplify it, there's a thing from yoga called bee breath where y- you put your, I can't do it now 'cause I'm wearing headphones, but, um, thumbs in the ears, these two fingers over the eyes and then this finger over the nose. And as you hum, it just creates this, like, vibrational, um, resonant effect in the sinus cavities and it just, uh, it feels so good, man. I, like, try it. It's also really good before pod-

Chris Williamson 39:13 What do you mean when-

Jonny Miller 39:13 ... pod, pod, podcast conversations.

Chris Williamson 39:15 What do you mean when you say hum? Is there a frequency people need to do? Is there a length of time they need to do it for? Are there rounds with this? Is there a tune I'm following?

Jonny Miller 39:25 You can do a tune (laughs) . No, so, uh, basically th- um, through, through the nose and all the way to the end of exhale. So taking a full breath in, inhale, and then, "Mmm," and then all the way to the end of exhale. Um, whatever pitch feels good to you (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 39:44 Right, okay, whatever, whatever you default to.

Jonny Miller 39:46 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:46 Okay, so there's, there's two, four by four by eight, so four in, four at the top, eight down.

Jonny Miller 39:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:52 And then im- there's no break at the end on that and you're saying at least four rounds-

Jonny Miller 39:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:58 ... up until you feel like you've actually reset a little bit, and then the alternative is around about 30-second rounds of humming, and how long is that for?

Jonny Miller 40:08 Yeah. So, um, I'll do, like, at least, like, three rounds and then usually by th- by the end of that, I'll feel pretty good. And with the four, four, eight, you can also, um, if you do it through alternate nostrils, again this is something from the yoga world, my theory is that because it reduces the aperture of the, of the inhale, it increases the calming effect. But I'll do, like, inhale four lefts, hold for four, exhale eight right, inhale f- inhale right four, hold four, exhale left eight. And, uh, yeah, I've looked for studies on, on, you know, why this is more effective. I haven't found that much but in my own experience, it's, it does help.

Chris Williamson 40:46 So I'm interested in how people can better integrate a deregulating experience. So they've gone through something, maybe they have or haven't been able to step in using some of the techniques that you've suggested or some of their own.

Jonny Miller 41:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:01 But something's happened and it's later in that day and they're sort of reflecting on this argument that they had with a random person in a coffee shop or that disagreement with a partner or that bit of road rage or that comment from a coworker that really set them off or w-

Jonny Miller 41:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:16 ... whatever it is. How would you advise someone after the fact to integrate a deregulating but normal experience? This isn't getting the call that you got while you were in Portugal.

Jonny Miller 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:31 It's one of those common perversions on our, on our, um, mind balance.

Jonny Miller 41:38 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, I, I usually, I think of this as in, like, two phases. The first phase is getting to a point where I feel somewhat, like, present again i- in my body and able to be with whatever the situation is. If, if that's not there, let's say you're still, like, really just frustrated about whatever the thing is, then I'll use either a top-down, bottom-up, or outside-in kind of practice to, to, to downregulate. So that can be, could be the, the affirmation, could be a cognitive reframe, could be some of the breathing exercises, could be, like, a state change, maybe s- sauna, sauna, cold plunge type thing. Um, or, or outside in, it could be, like, co-regulation, you know, just, like, a hug from a friend or, like, going for a walk with your dog. Like, whatever that is. Something to kind of allow the system to find, like, stability and safety. Once that's there, then, um, I'll do a pr- I, like, I, I teach a practice called somatic surfing which is essentially-... kind of dropping into the body, dropping into that interoceptive awareness, and being like, "Okay, like I'm, I'm angry at this person for this thing. Like, what do I, what do I notice in my body? What's, what's here?" And this is where the kind of courageous curiosity thing comes in. I'll find a sensation, I'll track it, and then it's, it's really a process of, um, like softening resistance and welcoming whatever's there. And the first few times that you do this... And it can often be helpful to do this, you know, with a somatic therapist or with a friend or a men's group, something like that. But if you're doing it on your own, it's, it's really just bringing, like, welcome resource to that part. Uh, I mean, through the lens of internal family systems, it's like there is some kind of like activated part and you're bringing resource to that part. Um, and it might wanna... Maybe there's like a thing that you wanna say or you wanna like shout at a pillow, or maybe you just wanna like lie down and like, just like shed a few tears. It, it will just, um... What- what's remarkable and what I find endlessly fascinating is how the body always, it always knows what to do. It's, it's really just us, like creating enough safety internally and externally for the body to take over, and it just, it just moves. It will complete that buffered reflex in the same way that you can, um... Searching YouTube, there's an amazing video of, uh, an impala that was chased by a lion and it's, it's sitting behind a bush and it was, it was literally like in the lion's jaws like five minutes ago. And it just starts, uh, at first it's still and then it just starts shaking. It just starts like trembling for like, maybe like three or four minutes and then it just gets up and just like, like runs away. And that shaking is the mammalian like, um, way of completing that stress cycle and that's, that's basically what we've forgotten to do as humans. Like, kids, kids do it. Um, my, my teacher, Ed, was in a, a scooter accident and, uh, when he was by, by the side of the road, he did exactly the... Like, he was, he was hit by the scooter and he just like, like, like shook for like maybe five minutes or so and then got up and he was great. And that, that kind of, um, uh, like stopping of the, of the reflex is what creates over time the allostatic load increase which creates the fragility and, and emotional debt over time.

Chris Williamson 45:10 You used that term before, allostatic load. What is that?

Jonny Miller 45:13 Mm. It's, it's like a fancy term for wear and tear on the body. Um, basically, like accumulated stress creates allostatic load in the system. Energy that is, e- e- energy that is being used to hold that thing in place that could otherwise be used for something else.

Chris Williamson 45:35 Okay.

Jonny Miller 45:35 Like, it, it takes energy to hold that, to, to stop that reflex from being completed.

Chris Williamson 45:41 I understand. So I'm thinking about this relationship between what occurs in the moment and regulating our system when that happens-

Jonny Miller 45:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:51 ... and then there's another level of regulating the system to make it feel safe for us after-

Jonny Miller 45:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:58 ... when we're going to try and integrate this experience. And then we have a final stage which appears to be allowing the feeling of feelings. Is that kind of the, the way to think about it?

Jonny Miller 46:09 Yeah, totally. And sometimes, um, you can just skip the whole first bit and just... Like, if it's a small thing, you just like, uh, it can happen in, you know, five or 10 seconds. I don't wanna kind of paint the picture that this needs to be like, uh, like a long drawn-out thing. It can literally be a 10, 20-second thing. Um, but yeah, that's like if you were to kind of break down the process, that's, that's what it looks like.

Chris Williamson 46:31 Okay. Emotional fluidity, the final skill.

Jonny Miller 46:35 Yeah. So, um, I mean, we've touched on this a fair bit. It, if I was to sum it up, it's, it's basically welcoming the full spectrum of our experience. And most of us are comfortable f- in, like you were saying earlier, like, you know, a handful of emotions, like I'm comfortable feeling maybe it's like, maybe it's sadness, maybe it's worry, maybe it's, um, joy. Um, but there's al- almost always like another pocket of things that, for whatever reason, we just avoid or we default to feeling the, the standard like box of crayons. And so it's like, how do we start? Yeah, I actually quite like that metaphor. How do we start like coloring in with some of these other, other crayons that we've like-

Chris Williamson 47:14 Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 47:14 ... kicked out of the box (laughs) ?

Chris Williamson 47:16 That's cool. That's cool.

Jonny Miller 47:17 Um, and, and for me it's been, it, it's actually been a process of almost working with like one, one crayon at a time primarily through breath work. Like, initially it was grief was like, was the big one and then, f- then it was, it was anger and, um, like f- for me the turning point there was like, uh, my teacher sa- he said the words, "You are loved in your anger." And I just like, I just bawled my eyes out. I was like, "Oh my God." Like, every time I've been angry, I've been like, like, "This is bad. I'm, I'm a bad person for, for feeling this."

Chris Williamson 47:46 Yeah. What, what do you think it was that caused you to, uh, feel so resonant with, "You are loved in your anger"?

Jonny Miller 47:54 It was because I didn't think I was, because I, every time anger came up I would... And, and, you know, I'd s- spent the first 25 years of my life thinking, "I'm just not an angry person. I'm just like chill, calm, like I don't get frustrated very easily." And, um, it turns out there was a lot of like, a lot of rage that had just been like pent up over the years. And, and so I, I think it really was this like explicit permission to, um, that I could be like a good person, I was safe when I was in that angry state. And I, and I think for me it came-

Chris Williamson 48:29 That you're not bad for feeling it.

Jonny Miller 48:31 Exactly. And I think one of the experiences that kind of lodged that in was when I was a kid, I got angry and like, like hurt this other kid on the playground and got, like punished for it, as, as kids often do. And I think that like was one of the things that cemented in, "Okay, anger's not a good thing to, to feel." And, and with that, like there was, there was a connection there too, this like-... people-pleasing tendency and this kind of, um, way in which I was being overly nice, but often not kind. And so that was this- this kind of nice versus kind was a dynamic that I was exploring, at the same time as being, like, um, allowing the anger to move through.

Chris Williamson 49:11 Tell me more about that, nice versus kind.

Jonny Miller 49:14 So, in my experience, being kind is often being able to- to set a healthy boundary or to- to say something which might initially be received as hurtful, but is, in the long run, the kinder thing to do. Whereas the nice is, like, the people-pleasing, like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, sure," or, like, not actually giving genuine feedback to someone. And in the short term, it avoids hurt, but over time, you lose trust, you lose, uh, faith in yourself, and you just- you just don't have boundaries. And so, for me, I would- I would say yes to everything and- and- and everyone, and just be, uh, then, you know, overwhelmed naturally.

Chris Williamson 49:54 It's so interesting how much, as you're talking about this emotional fluidity, dysregulation, so much of it, the word safe is just floating around the whole time. Do you feel-

Jonny Miller 50:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:06 ... safe feeling the things-

Jonny Miller 50:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:08 ... that you're feeling? Is it bad for you to be angry?

Jonny Miller 50:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:11 Or it's okay for me to be self-critical, it's okay for me, it's safe for me to be self-critical-

Jonny Miller 50:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:16 ... it's safe for me to be anxious, but for me-

Jonny Miller 50:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:19 ... to feel excitement or joy or, uh, rage, uh, uh, to, uh, indignation, uh, at things, no, no, no, no, no. Those things don't feel safe, and it's so interesting-

Jonny Miller 50:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:32 ... where that comes from.

Jonny Miller 50:34 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think- I think you're spot on. And it's also, uh, I mean, a lot of people don't necessarily identify as not feeling safe, but that's ultimately what it comes down to. And when we receive cues from the environment or from other people, um, that we are safe, then... And- and this is, I think, you know, 80% of what, say, a good therapist will do, is they will create a container. They will say, you know, "This is confidential, um, no one can hear what we're going to say. Everything is welcome." They are, like, permissioning that safety, basically, and that, and so, and- and then, you know, everything comes from there. And, um, yeah. It- it, I mean, it really is, really is everything, and also in relationship as well. Like, if you're in a relationship where it is safe to- to express your feelings, it is safe to, um, you know, move- move through these things, it can be- it can be really transformational. And- and, like, relearning that safety, um, is- is what increases our capacity to be with more intensity, um, over time.

Chris Williamson 51:37 Yeah. You've used that- you've used that term before, capacity to be with more intensity.

Jonny Miller 51:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:42 And, um, one of the things that I'm interested in is this relationship between state and trait. So, I think lots of people-

Jonny Miller 51:48 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:48 ... understand that if you do breath work, the, uh, state change is pretty dramatic, especially if you do some aggressive Wim Hof stuff, um, or if you do some down regulating for them. "Oh, I feel good. I feel good for a little while afterward." But relating-

Jonny Miller 52:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:03 ... that to the trait change, and you said, you know, "I did a thousand sessions of breath work and I helped, it helped me to work through my grief, it helped me to work through my anger."

Jonny Miller 52:12 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:13 We're talking about a trait change rather than a state change there.

Jonny Miller 52:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:16 So what is it that you're doing for someone like me who's really only used breath work to get high and cry a bit?

Jonny Miller 52:23 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:23 What does a trait change from a breath work practice look like? What's the modality, what's the process-

Jonny Miller 52:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:32 ... and what's the outcome?

Jonny Miller 52:34 Yeah. It's- it's a really good question. Um, two- two things come to mind. One is, the style of breath work that I- I trained in was called Facilitated Breath Repatterning, and one of the theses of this- this modality is that all of our emotions, or- or emotions have, like, corresponding breathing patterns. And so, if when I was in a process afterwards, the, if the practitioner was- was reading my breath as- as I'm- as I'm breathing, if the breathing pattern changes, that's a cue that there's- there's a likelihood that, like, something shifted there. Um, but- but in a more- in a more practical sense, um, my- my hypothesis around this is that there needs to be a, um, period of, um, downshift time, like deep parasympathetic state after whatever the release is, for the neural rewiring to- to happen. And with things like Wim Hof, Holotropic Breath Work, things like that, they are, you- you know, it's- it's almost like taking a tab of LSD. Like, you can have incredible, like, out of body psych, almost psychedelic experiences. The- the downside, and this is, you know, maybe somewhat controversial, is I think a lot of people are basically disassociating and they're checking out of their bodies and having these, like, crazy psychedelic experiences and then coming back in, but nothing has really changed. And so the- the- the challenge here is to, um, to breathe in such a way or to however you engage where you're still within your window of tolerance, and that basically means that you're still present with your experience, you haven't, like, checked out and gone somewhere else. And if you can be present with your experience the whole way through and then allow some time at the end for just, just literally rest, like- like that's what the body will naturally want to do at the end of a stress cycle, so, like, allow it to rest and relax, if you like, you could do, like, a NSDR practice or just take a nap or just, you know, lie down somewhere. Um, but from my understanding, that is when the- the rewiring in the nervous system takes place, is actually, it's not in the peak experience, it's afterwards in the rest or, you know, sleep that night as well.

Chris Williamson 54:51 How common is Facilitated Breath Work practice sessions? Is this something that people can find locally to them in a class? Is this something that you can do online?

Jonny Miller 55:02 It's not super common. Um, the main practitioner's base is in Bali unfortunately, but you can search conscious connected breathing or CCB as some, as a more common approach, and it's a way of breathing which, in my opinion, honors the nervous system, or it doesn't send us out in the way that holotropic or Wim Hof does. Um, there's, there's various other breathwork forms as well, but my, my favorite is CCB or FBR, which is facilitated breath repatterning.

Chris Williamson 55:28 Okay, and what are you doing... Presumably, you're not just breathing. There has to be some sort of mental processes as emotions arise, as thoughts arise, as stories and narratives that you tell yourself, assumptions about the world.

Jonny Miller 55:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:44 What are you doing from a more cognitive perspective, uh, through these breathwork sessions?

Jonny Miller 55:51 Yeah, well, what- what I... What's kind of crazy about it is, is you really are just breathing, and this was a big shift for me in- in- in that like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 55:59 There is no key.

Jonny Miller 56:00 It's, um... Yeah, well, the- the- the surprise for me was, was often these, these huge emotional processes we would go through, and there was, there was like zero story. Like I had no idea what it was attached to, um, and in some cases it was likely, like a pre-verbal experience, so something that happened in the first 18 months of life before I even had the capacity to articulate or to, or to speak. Um, the, fr- from a kind of cognitive standpoint, it's, it's really a practice of staying with the breath and then when... As, as, you know, going back to the emotional fluidity piece, when there's some discomfort, getting curious about it, and then like softening or surrendering into it, and just like welcoming it. And that's... Like it, it really is that simple. It's like get curious until you identify the thing or, or y- you, you like feel into something. Like if you're breathing, then breathe into it, and then at some point it will, it will release or something will happen. Um-

Chris Williamson 57:01 Right so in this way are you seeing the breathwork as creating a moderate dysregulation or at least a container for emotions to arise, emotions that maybe haven't been felt that you perhaps can't even remember, but to do it-

Jonny Miller 57:14 Totally.

Chris Williamson 57:14 ... in a very particularly safe way which is then retraining and repatterning yourself to go it's okay to feel this particular emotion. Is that it?

Jonny Miller 57:23 Exactly. No-

Chris Williamson 57:24 We got it.

Jonny Miller 57:24 It's the same-

Chris Williamson 57:25 Fuck it. I understand.

Jonny Miller 57:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:26 Finally.

Jonny Miller 57:27 The s- the, the same as I mean taking MDMA, like an MDMA-assisted therapy journey. It's doing the same thing. It's like creating that activation and MDMA being the empathogen creates even more safety in the system so that like big stuff can arise and it won't overwhelm you. It's like oh yeah that thing happened but I still feel this like overwhelming love and safety, which is I think a big part of why it's been so effective in, in the Maps trials and elsewhere.

Chris Williamson 57:53 That's cool. I like, that's a nice little framing that we've gone through. I think it explains to me as well about how breathwork creates that trait change.

Chris Williamson 58:04 One thing that I've been thinking about throughout all of this is the tendency for people who learn skills of mindfulness, of self-regulation to basically create another prophylactic in between-

Jonny Miller 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:19 ... them and their emotions. That beforehand I would shut down or I'd get super angry or I'd be distracted by being on my phone, but Johnny taught me how to do 4-4-8 breathing so hurray I just have a new way to not feel my feelings. Is that a trap that people step into?

Jonny Miller 58:37 Yeah absolutely and um a good story that kind of exemplifies this. There was a, uh, Tibetan monk that came to one of our trainings and uh I didn't witness this myself but my friend basically said that there was like, like so much rage and anger that was like trapped in his... And this monk had you know probably meditated 20,000, 30,000 hours um and you know I love meditation and I think it's an incredibly powerful valuable practice um but it can also be used to effectively disassociate or to self-regulate away the emotions which in the short term yeah like you might be more productive you might be able to... You might feel less anxious during the day so I'm not saying it's... Like I'm not saying don't do it but know that it is a ultimately a short-term like Band-Aid solution and that at some point you will have to like open that Pandora's box of stuff that you haven't been wanting to look at.

Chris Williamson 59:35 Dude, I feel so vindicated that someone who actually knows what they're talking about agrees with. I had this insight I never wrote it in my newsletter because I felt, I felt too silly it just felt like a pie in the sky, another bro science theory from me uh but I had it in my head it'll be in my notes somewhere saying um that mindfulness or like observing allowing and releasing is just another way to not feel feelings that it great and it's significantly infinite levels better than allowing them to capture you or obsessing about them but it doesn't ask the question where did this come from?

Jonny Miller 1:00:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:13 Why is it that when I encounter this situation I have to go back to my noting technique oh there's, there's anger again it comes and then it goes. It's like okay but if that's just going to keep flowing through you-

Jonny Miller 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:26 ... it, it is still arising and again this is swimming upstream versus swimming downstream. Do you want to cont- You've developed this fantastic coping regulation strategy for dealing with these emotions when they come up but it's not-

Jonny Miller 1:00:41 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:00:41 ... these emotions it's those four emotions in those five situations. It's always the same things triggering you. It's always the same emotions that come up.

Jonny Miller 1:00:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:49 Why not try and get closer to the root of the problem and that I think requires you certainly you know speaking as someone who's done a lot of meditation and has used an awful lot of mindfulness to have things arise and go okay there it is-

Jonny Miller 1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:03 ... and just sort of letting it float off into the distance that's great but it's-It's helped with state dealing-

Jonny Miller 1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 ... but not with trait dealing-

Jonny Miller 1:01:14 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:01:14 ... all the time?

Jonny Miller 1:01:15 Yes. Well articulated. I, I couldn't improve on that (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:01:20 (laughs)

Jonny Miller 1:01:20 It's well said (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:01:22 I love

Chris Williamson 1:01:23 your idea as well of the self-regulation paradox being similar to like a, a type A relaxation problem.

Jonny Miller 1:01:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 So this is, this is something I've noticed an awful lot, that the over optimizer, the Huberman fan, the, the Tim Ferriss fan, the me fan will find a relaxation strategy which they can apply their winner's mentality to-

Jonny Miller 1:01:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:49 ... and then try and use (laughs) , use the ice bath or the sauna or the breathwork as an option. Dude, I've done this, I've done this three times now during a breathwork class, where I've literally thought to myself, "I'm going to win at breathwork."

Jonny Miller 1:02:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:03 I'm like, it's... First off, no one's fucking looking at you. Second, win what? Who, uh, uh, who against? Yourself? What does this mean?

Jonny Miller 1:02:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:11 And, um, the three times, all of the three times that I've done it, I've pushed myself too far and I've, like, come back around to find the breathwork lady sort of leaning over me, rubbing, rubbing my neck because I've, like, sent myself into some other, other universe. And, uh, yeah. Talk to me about this sort of type A relaxation problem. I, I love that idea.

Jonny Miller 1:02:31 Yeah. Well, uh, I mean, I, um, it, it was more of, uh, more of just like a jest that I, I think it is a great Trojan horse to get people like, like myself honestly, you, like folks in this, um, kind of high achieving space to take, um, down regulation serious and, and, and treating it like being like a, like a cognitive athlete. And if you're hard charging and you're like David Goggin- gogginsing your way through life, then ideally there should be a kind of like equal and opposite downshift afterwards. And that, um, that downshifting is really hard for a lot of people. And so like I, I actually think it's, like, overall a very positive thing that people are, like, HRV flexing and they're just, like, bragging about how much time they spent in the sauna.

Chris Williamson 1:03:16 Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 1:03:16 Um, I think it's funny, but it's actually, in my opinion, like, probably a good trend. I, I mean, at some point that, um, my sense is that mentality, like, that trying to win at being the most relaxed basically, it's like...

Chris Williamson 1:03:31 (laughs)

Jonny Miller 1:03:32 Like, (laughs) has, has an, has an endpoint. Uh, like, at some point you have to, like, drop that too because it's going to be c- like, contributing to a certain ceiling of relaxation that you're able to get. Like, at some point you have to let that drop away too.

Chris Williamson 1:03:46 Oh, dude.

Jonny Miller 1:03:46 But-

Chris Williamson 1:03:46 I, uh, I had Ross Edgley on the show. You know Ross, swam around the UK. He just, uh-

Jonny Miller 1:03:50 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 He just, he just did the world's longest single river swim, 314 miles, and, uh, I asked him about the same thing. His, his, uh, approach to resilience is suffering strategically managed.

Jonny Miller 1:04:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:04 And what he's talking about is maybe for a marathon or a triathlon or maybe even an Ironman or an endurance race, you can maybe get away with sort of just grabbing and gritting and adrenaline and chip on your shoulder and, "My dad had, was mean to me, and those people in school, I'm gonna prove them wrong," and all the rest of this stuff.

Jonny Miller 1:04:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:24 You can kind of take that, that hot fire energy and use it.

Jonny Miller 1:04:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:30 But he says that if he's gonna try and swim, I think he swam for 55 hours without sleep-

Jonny Miller 1:04:35 That's insane.

Chris Williamson 1:04:35 ... without touching land, eating, pooping, peeing in the water, full works, and he said he needs-

Jonny Miller 1:04:41 Jesus.

Chris Williamson 1:04:41 ... to keep his nervous system just as steady as he can the whole time.

Jonny Miller 1:04:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:46 There's no use in him trying to think about Mrs. Wilkinson and that thing that she said to me in year nine, because (laughs) -

Jonny Miller 1:04:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:55 ... he's just gonna fry himself out. And I think-

Jonny Miller 1:04:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:57 ... that when we're... It, it, that's such an interesting reframe for life, that life is very much Ross Edgley swimming for 55 hours-

Jonny Miller 1:05:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:08 ... not you trying to run for 26 miles.

Jonny Miller 1:05:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:11 And that potent but toxic fuel, when it's used for too long, of the bitterness, of the resentment, of the rage, of the need to prove yourself, of the desire for validation-

Jonny Miller 1:05:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:21 ... those things are so good at getting you activated at the beginning, kicking you out of that job you hate, leaving that relationship you're not happy with, like, falling out the top or the bottom of region beta.

Jonny Miller 1:05:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:34 But when it gets to real long t- "Okay, is this the way I want to live my life? Do I want to end up on my deathbed still telling people that I've proved them wrong, that their assumptions about me, uh, look at all of the things I..." Is that really the energy that you want to take into your 60s and 70s and 80s? It's not for me. I don't wanna do that. You think, "Okay, so if that's the place that I'm going to end up at, why not just bring a little bit of that into now?

Jonny Miller 1:06:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:05 Why not try and embody... Okay, well that's where I'm going to go. I'm going to end up in a place where I don't want to be using that as fuel." Okay? So given that I've probably already created some momentum now, why don't we try and just, you know, wash a little bit of this away, wipe a little bit of that off?

Jonny Miller 1:06:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I love that so much. It, it feels like, like what you're saying is almost, like, changing the fuel source. It's like in the beginning that, like, nitric fuel, it, it r- you know, really does get shit done. I mean, there's a lot of very successful entrepreneurs who are still, like, riding that, that rocket fuel. Um, and at a certain point, um, whilst it may be fuel in one area of life, often quite a narrow area, it tends to... The, the fumes, let's say, I'm just making this up as I, as I go, but, like, the fumes end up with, like, you know, they're on their, like, fifth marriage or they are, they don't have any close friends or they have self-talk that you wouldn't wanna spend, like, two minutes listening to.

Chris Williamson 1:07:02 Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 1:07:02 Um, and so the p-

Chris Williamson 1:07:05 Not just... You, you mentioned self-talk,

Chris Williamson 1:07:07 and I, I, I've had it in my head the entire time, I'm desperate to ask you, uh, whether the inner voice is downstream from the body or the body is downstream from the inner voice.

Jonny Miller 1:07:19 Yeah. So, uh, it- it is a bidirectional relationship, like it- it's not one or the other. But, um, something that I've noticed, uh, this is just, you know, kind of one, but I- I had a very active, like, inner critic in teenage years, most of my 20s, and in the last three or four years, that has- like, it's really gone quiet. Like, I still- I have thoughts, but it almost- it feels like my mind is like my buddy. It's like sending me, like, ideas or like, "Did you think of this thing?" Or like, "Try doing this." And there's- there's, you know, 95% less critical, negative, like looping, like Velcro thoughts going on. And I really do attribute that to a lot of the- just like the somatic shit that I've- that I've re- released in- through a bunch of these different, like emotional processes. Um, and also- also flexibility as well. Like, there was so much tension that I was holding in different areas that it's just not as, um, not as present. I mean- I mean there's still a fuck ton there but it's like a lot less than it used to be, I'd say.

Chris Williamson 1:08:25 Yeah. I, uh, I was talking with George yesterday and we had this little experiment. We were asking whether or not your mind is your friend or your enemy. Is your mind-

Jonny Miller 1:08:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:34 ... working with you and for you, or against you? And-

Jonny Miller 1:08:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:38 ... just the fact that, for me certainly, my mind is working against me so much of the time.

Jonny Miller 1:08:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:43 It's not my friend, it's not being supportive, it's not patting me on the back and telling me that I've got- done a good job. It's not being e- even really that objective. It's just this like very cutting, castigating, harsh inner critic that tells me, "Maybe you did okay today, but unless you can do better tomorrow, today d- probably doesn't really matter, and tomorrow's going to be a waste as well. So you'd better get cracking, you'd better work harder." And, uh, yeah, that's- that's just a really interesting realization that that- it doesn't- things don't need to be that way. That's not the way that things need to occur.

Jonny Miller 1:09:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:23 That there are- there are better routes. And when it comes to, "But yeah, but that's facilitating success, that's allowing you to get to a place of worldly acclaim and prestige and all the rest of it." And it's like, "Yeah, but for what end?"

Jonny Miller 1:09:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:37 Like what's the point if the road towards your worldly success is paved with personal misery, what was the point all along? You're actually selling the soul of your inner experience so that other people think that you're cool, or that things have gone well.

Jonny Miller 1:09:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:55 And I'm also not sure that you need that cutting inner voice in order to become successful in any case. I'm pretty sure there is an equanimous-

Jonny Miller 1:10:03 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:10:03 ... well-balanced way of achieving those things.

Jonny Miller 1:10:06 Yeah. Yeah. I- I mean that- that was what was coming to mind for me is- is like, I mean, going back to the high agency thing, like to what degree are those, you know, sounds like counterproductive thoughts, like actually getting in the way of you just like being present and like getting out of the way and doing your thing that you do really, really well? And my sense is they might even be negatively impacting the- the- the progress towards the goals that you've set or the intentions that you have. Uh, I mean that was certainly true for me. Um, but it- it probably, yeah, it depends on the context.

Chris Williamson 1:10:38 Talk to me

Chris Williamson 1:10:39 about the neuro-aperture hypothesis.

Jonny Miller 1:10:43 Yeah. This is, um, a half-baked idea that (laughs) I shared on Twitter recently. Uh, it's basically a- a sense that, um, I- I was researching the- the etymology of the word anxiety and it- it comes from a Latin word which means to constrict. And I- I have this- I have this kind of working hypothesis that anxiety isn't really an emotion in and of itself, it's actually a- a constriction or a tensing, kind of coming back to that like closed fist metaphor we were talking about earlier. It's like a constriction against another underlying emotion. And if you're able to like increase that aperture of the emotional energy, then that actually turns into, on the- the- the other end of the spectrum, joy. And I- I know people that, uh, you know, students that I've worked with who, um, they- they started to feel anxious when the- the emotion of joy was arising. Like they were-

Chris Williamson 1:11:41 Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 1:11:41 Their- their- their system didn't feel safe to feel that joy, so it was- it was tensing, it was constricting, it was causing an experience of anxiety. But if they just loosened that a little bit, it would- it would literally turn into joy, probably the very thing that they are like wanting to feel more of in their life. And- and I, you know, I think the same is true of other emotions as well, like people that are chronically anxious, um, I- I would say there is a very good chance that there is a- another emotion just like just below the surface that if they were able to, um, like loosen that grip a little bit, then it would- it would like come to the surface. Um, which yeah, you know, so it's- it's very related to everything that we've- we've just been riffing on.

Chris Williamson 1:12:26 It's interesting to think what emotion is your anxiety causing you to not feel, or-

Jonny Miller 1:12:31 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:12:32 ... what emotion is masquerading as anxiety.

Jonny Miller 1:12:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:36 And, uh, yeah, you kind of want to reveal that- that mask-

Jonny Miller 1:12:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:40 ... through safety and say, "Oh, wow." And that's something that, you know, we- we've spoken today a good bit about anger, sort of bitterness, anxiety, rage, those sorts of things. But there's definitely fear on joy, elation, excitement-

Jonny Miller 1:12:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:12:57 ... hope-

Jonny Miller 1:12:57 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:58 ... all of these things coming through too, that there's just sort of extremis, anything that's outside of the very narrow Overton window. I think of it like an emotional-

Jonny Miller 1:13:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:13:08 ... Overton window, right?

Jonny Miller 1:13:09 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:13:09 You have these acceptable ranges of emotions and it tends to be maybe a little bit more, it leans slightly more into the negative than it does-

Jonny Miller 1:13:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:17 ... into the positive. But if you just get extreme in any direction, you are, "Nope, nope, unacceptable. Sorry, you can't use that word, not with a hard R." And you...

Jonny Miller 1:13:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:13:27 Depression with a hard R. Um-

Jonny Miller 1:13:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:13:30 So, you can't do that. And, um, it- it really makes me think about, it really, really makes me think about that. I think so many people, myself included-

Jonny Miller 1:13:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:38 ... extreme emotions come through. They're not even that extreme, but something outside of the normal day-to-day experience of emotions comes through-

Jonny Miller 1:13:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:13:47 ... and there's, something gets activated and you go, "Wow." Like I mean-

Jonny Miller 1:13:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:13:50 ... I mean someone, is this safe? Is this okay? And if you don't, at least my current bro science working theory, is if you don't step in and sort of check in and just remind yourself like, "You are safe. This is fine to feel. Even if it's sad, it doesn't mean that you're going to be sad for the rest of time. Just means that-"

Jonny Miller 1:14:08 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:14:08 "... a sad thing happened, and that's the emotion that's with you now."

Jonny Miller 1:14:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, man, I'm so, I- I- I so agree, and I- I think the- the surprising thing for me was- was actually that, um, it was the resistance to feeling the thing that sucks. It- it was the resistance to feeling my sadness or my anger that was, like, painful, and uncomfortable, and that I didn't wanna be with. But when that goes away, the- the actual emotion, it- it feels so fucking good. And not- not just joy, not just excitement, not just... But like, even like especially some, you know, the sadness, there's this like real beautiful tenderness and this like rawness and feeling connected to myself, to the world around me. And to think that like I- I- I believe that my life would be meaningfully diminished if I was to shut that away and to not allow that to- to move through me. It's- it's such an important part of-

Chris Williamson 1:15:08 So bang on.

Jonny Miller 1:15:08 ... being human.

Chris Williamson 1:15:09 Dude, that's so bang on, and I- I've- I've been thinking this to myself for a long while, that, look, you have this beautiful suite of human emotions that you can live within-

Jonny Miller 1:15:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:19 ... and why would you not want it all? Why not? You have, you know, it's like saying-

Jonny Miller 1:15:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:26 ... uh, "I have all of the colors available on my television, but I'm just going to watch in black and white."

Jonny Miller 1:15:31 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:15:31 And well, no, you have this massive spectrum of emotions that you can tap into that literally add color to your existence.

Jonny Miller 1:15:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:38 You're going to get to the end of your life and look back and realize that all of the- the buffet of human existence was open to you, and you decided to sample all of it.

Jonny Miller 1:15:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:48 Not in a hedonic, "I went and fucked the bitches and flew on the planes and did the drugs," style way, that's open to your preference.

Jonny Miller 1:15:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:58 But in a-

Jonny Miller 1:15:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:15:59 ... there is a range of experiences innerly that are available to me.

Jonny Miller 1:16:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:04 And I decided to not shut those things off, and I just think, "God," like, "what- what the fuck else are we here for if it's not to enjoy the emotional state that we're in?" Almost everything that we do is trying to find a way to enjoy the present moment.

Jonny Miller 1:16:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:21 And that doesn't necessarily need to be good emotions all of the time, but to just think, like, "This current state that I'm in is interesting, it's inspiring, it's something that I'm going to look back on and remember."

Jonny Miller 1:16:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:37 Yeah. I, uh, the more that I think about it, the more that I realize that I think emotions and feeling feelings are kind of just what we're here to do, and everything else-

Jonny Miller 1:16:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:46 ... everything else is trying to get our lives or the environment that we're in into a state to give us a good enough reason to just be feeling joy in the present moment or present in the present moment.

Jonny Miller 1:17:01 I- I love that so much, and the- the metaphor that- that comes to mind is, um, almost viewing our human biology as like an instrument and that there are ways in which conditioning culture experiences like gets our human instrument to be out of tune and that if we're going around life playing like in the wrong key, like, things- things aren't gonna go well. So, by taking a little bit of time to basically inquire inwards, tune up your instrument, then you- you will have greater access to these- these melodies, these- these scales, these- these harmonics that were previously out of range. And if we're just playing like two or three notes the whole time, it's gonna be a pretty boring song. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:17:41 Yes, yes, yes.

Jonny Miller 1:17:41 Like, I think that the goal is to have that, like, we want like an orchestra of experience, um, that- that for me is like one definition of a- of a good life, is like- is like being intimate with the world in a way that we can, like, allow all of those notes, all of those colors to kind of move through without being like, "No, I just wanna play an A," or, "I just wanna color in red." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:18:06 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 1:18:06 Like, like fine, like there's not- there's nothing wrong with that, but to me that feels like a, it's like a diminished, uh, vision of life basically.

Chris Williamson 1:18:14 Agreed, yeah. Emotionally living in black and white as opposed to living in color.

Chris Williamson 1:18:18 So-

Jonny Miller 1:18:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:18:18 ... given your I guess kind of progressive perspective on self-growth, self-improvement, do you think that the current personal development industry is built on a flawed premise?

Jonny Miller 1:18:35 Hmm. Yeah, so, um, something that I- I learned from this guy Steve March, this, amazing, amazing dude, uh, he has this controversial but I think really valid opinion that the self-development industry, the self-improvement paradigm is flawed in that it starts from the premise that something in you is broken, something in you needs fixing, and so going into any, you know, even like- like an emotional inquiry process with this like, "Oh, there's this part of me that needs to be healed so that I can be okay," like starting from that point will diminish the range of outcomes that are possible versus what- what he calls a, he calls it a self-unfoldment, which is maybe, you know, like a fan- fancy term, but it basically means like what if everything right now is okay? What if actually you were safe? And then applying that curiosity and presence to whatever's there without a change agenda. And this- this is some- something that I like, I really fell into this trap like over and over again. I would...... and be like, "Oh, I know this. Like, I'm triggered. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do a breath work journey. I'm gonna feel it. I'm gonna fix it." It was like the same, like-

Chris Williamson 1:19:42 Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 1:19:42 ... Type A mentality of like-

Chris Williamson 1:19:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny Miller 1:19:45 ... "I'm gonna feel the shit out of this. I'm just gonna (laughs) feel it so hard."

Chris Williamson 1:19:47 (laughs) "I'm gonna win at feeling."

Jonny Miller 1:19:48 And like... (laughs) "Yeah, I'm gonna win at..." Exactly, exactly, right? And that, um, you know, it, it worked to some degree in the beginning, but at some point I realized that the, the way in which I was going in with this, like, self-improvement agenda was actually creating the resistance that was getting