How To Survive Thanksgiving & LGBT Politics - Scott Capurro

Chris Williamson 0:00 There's buildings and trees in the UK that are older than your country.

Scott Capurro 0:04 It's true. But when you ask a British person about the building or the tree, they'll lie to you about it. You know, I live in East London. Half of it wasn't destroyed by the Germans like the locals will tell you, the locals from Essex will tell you. But the truth is, the British pulled it all down 'cause they can't stand the sight of anything that's more than 50 years old because they're so ashamed of it. I've been lied to about the age of the building I live in in London so many times. Oh, it's from the 1930s. It's from the 1880s. It's from the 1950s. When the fuck is it?

Chris Williamson 0:28 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 0:28 Nobody knows. It's all been made up. At least our history is new enough that we can't fake it. (wind blows)

Chris Williamson 0:36 Tomorrow is my first Thanksgiving-

Scott Capurro 0:38 Yes.

Chris Williamson 0:39 ... ever. I don't know-

Scott Capurro 0:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:40 I don't know what it is. I don't know why you celebrate it. I don't know what to expect. All that I see are memes about how to insult or have difficult conversations with your family members around the dinner table.

Scott Capurro 0:52 Right.

Chris Williamson 0:52 So can you give me a guide for how to survive Thanksgiving, please?

Scott Capurro 0:57 Well, it's an adult outing. Now I don't mean just leaving your house and going outdoors. I mean outing yourself to your family in all sorts of ways, politically, in terms of sexuality and gender too. There'll be a lot of trans exploration at Thanksgiving this year, 'cause everyone's trans. There's millions of them, so we gotta look out. They're there. There's one under the table. So yeah, there's lots of trans, so expect a trans at your Thanksgiving. It's Transsgiving this year, by the way, is what we're calling it. Transsgiving, by the way. Um, yeah, uh, people, um, kill animals and barbecue them and then eat them and try to avoid, with their mouth full of food, talking to their family members. I sit at the dining table across from my dad and wait for him to take his last breath so I don't have to do Stayin' Alive anymore, because that old fucker has so much money he will not spend it on me. But yes, what it mostly is, is a chance for people to get together and pretend it's not Christmas around the corner. So there's no gifts. There's just food. You shove it in. You pass out near the dining table, and then you wake up an hour later and say, "I gotta go. I'm so full." You drive home. That's what it is. Or you fall down on the floor, you're so, you're so full. You lay down on your brother's living room floor and wait for people to pass by so you can look up their skirts, but you don't really wanna see most of it. So yeah, it's that. There's that. There's skirt viewing. But it's mostly just a time, I think... It's a four-day holiday. It's, uh, a shopping season, 'cause Black Friday happens on the Friday after Christ- after Thanksgiving. So that's what people are really most looking forward to. I like Thanksgiving because Halloween's my favorite, uh, festive holiday. But Thanksgiving is my fave, because it's just about the food and you don't have to worry about gift-giving yet. And I like the food. It's a nice... Turkey is nice. Some people have ham. Communists eat pheasant or fish or lobster, which is fucked up. But a lot of people do that. Where you're from, I'm sure there's a lot of, uh, meat on the offer, because Texans love their barbecue, and barbecue turkey is good. Um, yeah, i- it's about, it's a holiday about, um, responding to how lucky we are to have escaped, uh, European dominance. People, people left Europe in the 18th c- well, the 16th, 17th, 18th century to, for, um, religious freedom. And, um, that's what they were celebrating. They said, "Thank you God, that we don't have to, uh, eat with the English anymore."

Chris Williamson 3:17 Is that why?

Scott Capurro 3:18 And be-

Chris Williamson 3:18 And I've now been invited... So it's basically a victory party for your nation over my nation, and I've been invited back around.

Scott Capurro 3:26 Yes. They're gonna kill you. So you will be-

Chris Williamson 3:29 Is this gonna be like that Get Out movie where that, they invite that one Black guy around and then it's a-

Scott Capurro 3:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:33 ... a big game where they all try and kill him?

Scott Capurro 3:36 Yeah, that, it'll be (laughs) , it'll be like that.

Chris Williamson 3:38 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 3:38 I mean, I, you know, I think people have forgotten the, the, uh, the truth about the holiday season which really was, um, some people came from Europe and took away some land from some indigenous people, killed them with disease or, uh, murdered all their children to make sure they couldn't populate, and then celebrated that. So we're trying to, um, not celebrate the truth. But this is where the critical race theory comes in. I think people, kids don't really understand what the holiday season's about, 'cause it'll ruin their stuffing and their cranberry sauce. And where all that comes from, I don't know. Don't ask me where the cranberry sauce comes from. Again, that's an English thing, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 4:18 Yeah, very much so.

Scott Capurro 4:20 Yeah. But I think it, what I used to like about the holidays too, Thanksgiving, Christmas, is they, they used to open films on these days in America. All the cinemas would be open and I'd go to movies with my family. It was really fun. But that's kind of not happening this year either, I think, 'cause of COVID. And does anyone go to the movies anymore? I don't think anyone does.

Chris Williamson 4:37 Man, I don't know. I went to go and see... What was the last movie I went to go and see? I can't even remember. I wanted to go and see the James Bond, the new James Bond, and then someone told me that it was terrible, so I didn't bother to go and see that. I went to go see some new Marvel thing. Yeah, it was empty, absolutely empty.

Scott Capurro 4:52 Yeah. I mean, we're watching a Mexican soap opera tomorrow all day, I think. It's hilarious, called The House of Flowers. It's so funny. And, uh, my husband's Brazilian, so he's a big fan of Mexican TV. And, uh, some of my relatives are Mexican, and they're indigenous people as well. So when I see them, we don't really talk much about the joy of Thanksgiving. And they tend to bring pre-made, packaged microwaved food to their festive events. Yeah. So-

Chris Williamson 5:23 Is that, do you think that's a little bit of a slight on the holiday at large?

Scott Capurro 5:27 It might be. Yeah, yeah, it might be. But it's a big deal to my husband 'cause he believes in... Oh, he's gone. He believes in family. It's weird. It's fucked up. He just saw some of his family in Ecuador 'cause he wanted to. It's so weird to me. Like he sees them out of joy and happiness and union, a bond. It really is interesting.

Chris Williamson 5:44 Not out of obligation?

Scott Capurro 5:46 Yeah, it's, yeah, or because you want a new car, because you want to brag about what you make for a living. So we're seeing my family tomorrow. We've been harassed and kidnapped basically, emotionally, so we have to go see them for a few hours. He'll complain in the car all the way there. But it's mostly because he doesn't understand why there's a room full of people who hate each other so much. When he first met my family, he's like, "I've never been around a bunch, uh, in a room full of people...... who clearly could barely stand the smell or stench of each other. I'm like, "Well, happy Christmas." I mean, my, the, the nice people in my family died because they were nice. They were murdered. So now, it's just, it's the gangsters and the mafia left. I mean-

Chris Williamson 6:22 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 6:22 ... if we survive, I'll be happy. Italians all sit ... They, my family will not sit with their backs to the windows 'cause they're too afraid of being shot from outdoors. My father, his whole house only has windows on one side. That's why he bought it. He never goes to restaurants with windows in them and he never pays with credit cards. He's too afraid of being traced. This is the mood I share Thanksgiving with my family and they're, they're, they're all-

Chris Williamson 6:42 Why are you part of the Sicilian mafia?

Scott Capurro 6:45 Yeah. They're illegal importers and extra exporters. That's how they make their money. It's all, it's all public with my family. They don't ... They're not ashamed of it, they're proud of it. So it's The Sopranos. They're like local celebrities in the small towns where they live.

Chris Williamson 6:57 Jesus.

Scott Capurro 6:57 That's why they wear a black tie on holidays. It's cr- it's weird, but they do it. They wear black ties and black jackets 'cause they want everyone to know who they are.

Chris Williamson 7:04 Wow.

Scott Capurro 7:05 They're, they're muscle people. It's scary. So I don't give a-

Chris Williamson 7:07 I can imagine you fitting right in with a bunch of murderers and hitmen and extortionists.

Scott Capurro 7:13 They love the gay thing. No, they like the gay thing. 'Cause, 'cause they're, 'cause they're comfortable leaving us alone with their wives while they go, go outside and smoke marijuana in the driveway 'cause they know we won't hit on anybody. They do. We can go shopping with their wives, they're fine with that. We're like, we're like gay bodyguards. Right, honey?

Narrator 7:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Capurro 7:27 Yeah. Or they love it when we're there 'cause my husband's great with kids, so they leave their meatloafs alone with my husband. And he builds a fake bar for them, makes little drinks. They're like little grownups. And, you know, they go and make phone calls and deal drugs internationally and they, they come back two hours later like, "Can you bring him to the next fence?" 'Cause they don't like their kids either. They fucking hate their kids. Most people do, so.

Chris Williamson 7:46 And people you ... It seems like a lot of my buddies that are more personally development inclined are using this as an opportunity to do an end of year review to kind of gratitude and such. That would be something typically that we would do around New Year's Eve in the UK. Is that, uh, do people not use it as a time to reflect, the Thanksgiving, the gratitude thing?

Scott Capurro 8:07 You know, it's, it's really sweet and only worldly of you to say, but we're all about moving forward. Like I said earlier, we got a world to run here in the US. So it's move, move, move, fast, fast, fast, out of my way. In fact, half the people I see at family functions, or even in clubs or bars when I'm working, are on their phones the whole time, buying and selling. This country's about, uh, modern, not the past. I- in fact, you're-

Chris Williamson 8:28 Well, that's because you don't have any past. There's, there's buildings and trees in the UK that are older than your country.

Scott Capurro 8:35 It's true. But when you ask a British person about the building or the tree, they'll lie to you about it. That's the thing about the British. They've got a past, but it's made up. I mean, ev- you know, I live in East London. And half, half of it wasn't destroyed by the Germans like the locals will tell you. It ... You know, the locals from Essex will tell you. What, what the truth is, the British pulled it all down 'cause they can't stand the sight of anything that's more than 50 years old 'cause they're so ashamed of it. I've been lied to about the age of the building I live in in London so many times. We've had so many, "Oh, it's from the 1930s." It's from the 1880s. It's from the 1950s. When the fuck is it?

Chris Williamson 9:08 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 9:08 Nobody knows. It's all been made up. (laughs) At least our history is new enough that we can't fake it. I mean, I know what you mean. I mean, in Austin, there should be quite a history. Um, but again, I think they tear everything down and, which it ... I mean, in a way, a lot of my British friends come here. What they like so much about it is how new and clean everything seems to be, except in San Francisco. I mean, we have a real homeless problem here that people tend to ignore and dismiss 'cause it's the wealth- It's both the wealthiest and the poorest part of the US where I live here.

Chris Williamson 9:39 There was a man walking ...

Chris Williamson 9:40 So in America, there are these lanes. At least in Texas, there are these lanes in the middle of the street, and they're ones that are used by people that are going to turn left or right, and they're like fee- feeder lanes or turning lanes or something.

Scott Capurro 9:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:50 And, um, when I go down South Lamar in Austin, that street always has, around about every 500 meters or so, a homeless person walking along with a, with a little cardboard sign. Uh, and that makes me sad. But then twice now in 10 days that I've been here, I've seen somebody who is naked, a homeless person who is naked with a sign, but only naked from the waist down.

Scott Capurro 10:15 Oh, right.

Chris Williamson 10:16 So fully dressed up top with a bag, but then one lady who had her vagina out and then one gentleman who was just fully swinging in the wind. And, uh-

Scott Capurro 10:27 Right.

Chris Williamson 10:27 I just... I think that's hard to ignore. I don't know how you mentioned that people in San Francisco can ignore the homeless problem. It was difficult for me to ignore the lady's vagina.

Scott Capurro 10:37 Well, that's, that's, uh ... But not the swinging penis. That w- you're, you're, you're

Chris Williamson 10:40 That's just par for the course, you know?

Scott Capurro 10:42 Yeah, yeah. Of course, yeah. Um, you know, I think that's why they're doing it 'cause they feel ignored. Um, and the winter's coming up. (laughs) But, uh, I also ... Yes. In fact, I'm surprised they were just standing on your island. We call them islands. Um, and the islands here in, in California, they're living and they're cooking-

Chris Williamson 11:01 In the middle of the road?

Scott Capurro 11:02 They're raising children. Yeah. It's, it can be very difficult. Yes. So, um-

Chris Williamson 11:10 When you're trying to make a left, when you're trying to make a left turn down on at least 46th or something.

Scott Capurro 11:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's someone that's, you know, they're, they're, they're frying, they're pouring -

Chris Williamson 11:18 A family of five in the way.

Scott Capurro 11:20 Seriously. It, it's ... You know, when I ... I've been in India a few times for work. And you do see people in the street there who have been living there for generations. That's their corner. Um, and it's becoming ... It's on that way here-

Chris Williamson 11:33 Wow.

Scott Capurro 11:33 ... in the US. And it's the disparity of wealth (sighs) that creates such a, such a, a, a disproportionate population. I don't ... Yeah, I'm a bit ... I, it, it's not just ashame that I feel. I mean, of course I feel ashamed that I live in a culture and in a planet that lets that happen. But it's, it's, it's a, it's a confusion I have 'cause I'm not s- quite sure why I live in a place. I live very close to Silicon ... I mean, basically Silicon Valley where I live. And I, I work and live with people who are making millions, billions. A house just sold near us for $1.5 million over the asking price. $1.5 million dollars-... over what they were asking. So that's the kind of money that you see here, right? So why these people can make that kind of money creating an app that allows them to get a pizza and a taxi on the way home, but... Which is genius, great for them. But they can't use that, you know, Harvard graduation, uh, promise o- of cleaning up the world to fucking fix the biggest problem that's on their doorstep that they bitch to their families about all the time. "Oh, someone's on my doorstep and they're shitting on my car. They got a needle in my... in their arm." Well, then fix it. Fix it. How about paying your taxes? Or... What I don't get is why... Is we're all part of the problem. We're... You and I are doing it right now, we're on Skype. While we're using social media to celebrate how great we... each of us are, to discuss our own egos on this podcast for 60 minutes, but (laughs) ... but we don't see a Skype opera house, or a Facebook cinema, or an Amazon homeless shelter ever. Ever. These companies are here because they get tax breaks. They don't pay anything. I could go on and on about this, but I don't under-... I, I, I understand as much as you do. So am I driving up the road-

Chris Williamson 13:29 The homeless problem ex- i- it certainly seems to be a little bit different in the US as it is in the UK. There's... I don't know. In the US, maybe it's because of the weather that people can't settle as much in the UK, or maybe it's that there's fewer, fewer of them, or maybe just the culture, the subculture of homeless people is different.

Scott Capurro 13:46 They have more of a safety net, you do. My husband's from Brazil, I'm from here. Us living in London, we know that. I mean, I know the safety net is being dismantled by the... by, by, you know, BJ. I know that's happening. But in the meantime, you at least have some. There's... You know, behind our house in London, there's a, an ex-prostitute. I know that because she used to chase me down the street as I was going into my house. I'm like, "Honey, you're, you are barking up the wrong elm. Seriously." Uh, I don't pay for it and I don't pay for pussy, especially. That's just my...

Chris Williamson 14:11 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 14:11 But, but she was quite aggressive. And now she lives behind us with her husband, one of her johns who she married, and she has three kids that she's raising with him. And we see that, and we know they're dealing drugs out of their kitchen window, which they kind of have to, to pay for their car, but at least they have a place to live, right? She's raising three... They might... You know, she's got a family and that... I just... It's not gonna happen here.

Chris Williamson 14:34 Yeah.

Scott Capurro 14:35 You're gonna lose your house because you have a medical problem. You know, I... Y- I... And you're not aware of it, and you shouldn't be. You shouldn't have to be. But you've been raised in a country with free healthcare, and you cannot even imagine how much lighter that makes your life. When my mother died of advanced lung disease, we found a stack of bills on her desk. She was dealing with insurance companies until the fucking day she fell asleep and died in her sleep, trying to pay off bills so she could breathe. And if you don't have that in your life, you don't just live longer, you

Scott Capurro 15:06 don't lose your house. It's just-

Chris Williamson 15:07 Not, not having nationalized healthcare does feel very barbaric, coming from a country that has...

Scott Capurro 15:14 Yes.

Chris Williamson 15:14 Y- you don't even think about it. I remember, I went to New Orleans on a road trip a couple of years ago, and the guy that did the tour was very capable. It was one of these Wiccan, Dracula, scary evening tour things, and up here is the ghost of whatever, and it was cool, and you got to drink, so it made it all seem a bit more believable. And this guy was real competent, really, really competent. Big tour company he was doing it for. We tipped him at the end, and we were like, "Right, well, we wanna go out for some beers." He said, "Oh, well, I also work as a barman at this place." I'm like, "Hang on. So you do... You're a tour guide of this thing, and also you help the operator and you're doing the bar? Okay, cool. We'll go to the bar with you." Start chatting to him, and he was... We were talking about this conversation, and he said, "If you get hit by a car, you'd better walk it off, because if somebody calls the ambulance to come and pick you up, that can bankrupt you. That can send you into this cycle of debt that you're now stuck in."

Scott Capurro 16:05 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:06 And that scared me. This guy's real hardworking. You know, two, three, maybe more jobs. He was saying, "Oh, I've got two cracked teeth at the back. Uh, but I'm not... I, I can't pay to get them fixed and I'm not gonna get the insurance or whatever to do the thing." I'm like, "This is fucking medieval shit. What's going on?"

Scott Capurro 16:25 Yes. And then it... And that continues, like you said, you know, until maybe he injures himself. A friend of mine is a psychiatrist at a... at Kaiser Hospital, which is a huge local hospital. And he's dealing with, um, people with drug addiction. And these are people that have jobs they can't quit, so he tries to get them off the heroin and the crystal. And they've been taking pain medication, some of them, their entire adult lives because they injured when they were at university playing sport or something, and they can't stop working. They can't take a week or two or four... Or they can't go to rehab, they'll lose their jobs, they'll lose their house. It's really vicious, you know? I mean, Edson, my husband and I were so lucky because we aren't caught up in any of this cycle. And because we've been-

Chris Williamson 17:10 Is that fundamentally fueled by the medical problem? Where does this come from? Because, you know, outside of that, I don't see why America is any more expensive of a place to live than anywhere else.

Scott Capurro 17:21 Right. I mean, I think that's... It's a complicated situation where people... Wh- where certain language is used to discourage people from socialized healthcare, like the word socialism. I don't know why. Scares a lot of people here.

Chris Williamson 17:33 Mm-hmm.

Scott Capurro 17:33 Although they get their Social Security checks every month, but they don't understand the similarity or the difference. And, and I think that people are worried about the... You know, we've heard about death panels where hospitals decide whether or not you live or die, which frankly does happen in the UK sometimes, but, you know, it's not a common occurrence. And if people here would just look at the way the pandemic's been handled by the NHS, how brilliantly they've handled... How, how they saved Boris Johnson's fucking political career. You know, what upsets me though, it's not... it's not just that too, it's education. I mean, I think it just feels like here... Edson and I noticed there's a lack of empathy in the US. There just is. There just is. And I mean, yes, nationally. You see it on television, you see it in the way people are dealt with socially here locally, you see it in our political system nationally and locally.There is a feeling of, you need to look after yourself and take care of yourself. And when we're in France, I, you know, I had to live in Italy for a while to get my, my citizenship taken care of. When we're living in c- when we, when, when I stay in Australia for long periods working, I don't sense it there. I feel like the people I know who live here and work here do so because they want to make money. And if you're not a part of that vicious cycle, then get out.

Chris Williamson 18:53 If you're not in the economic engine. Yeah. I think-

Scott Capurro 18:56 Yeah, out.

Chris Williamson 18:56 ... one thing that I've definitely noticed is that Americans need far le- or at least the Americans that I've been around, need far less of an excuse to treat themselves or to enjoy themselves. I think I'm seeing much less of a puritan work ethic over here. So you want to go out on an evening time, you go have some food-

Scott Capurro 19:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:14 ... or whatever, someone doesn't have to earn the right to be able to go and do that. Now, that may be because I'm from quite a working class, salt of the earth place in the UK, and Austin is kind of every other person is a crypto millionaire-

Scott Capurro 19:27 Use this.

Chris Williamson 19:27 ... that I meet. Yeah.

Scott Capurro 19:29 Or- or-

Chris Williamson 19:29 Fucking decentralized, yeah, musician that does psychedelics on the weekend and has-

Scott Capurro 19:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:34 ... somehow sold their company for ... So maybe there, maybe it doesn't matter. But, um, it, it definitely feels like there's, there's more of a leisure culture here. You know, people just say, "What are you doing at, at 2:00 PM?" "We're going out on the boat." Or some shit. Like that's not-

Scott Capurro 19:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:48 That's not the sort of thing that you would see in the UK.

Scott Capurro 19:51 Yeah. There's definitely a, a, an idea. I, we s- uh, it depends on where you live, for sure. But, um, there's a feeling here that people do... I think that's why the pandemic, people struggled so much, 'cause I mean, our friends don't cook. Everybody goes out to dinner at least, at least five nights a week. People go out a lot. And I think they work hard, and then they, they, they like to play hard. And in fact, some young people just moved into the building across the street from us too, you know, so we can see their entire lives 'cause they didn't bother buying curtains. But they party so much. And that's really great for them. Maybe a result of them being cooped up for 18 months, but also, there's, there's a, a, a feeling of life moving quickly forward that we really feel when we're here. We feel like our lives in London really slowed down when we were there.

Chris Williamson 20:36 Mm-hmm.

Scott Capurro 20:37 Especially over the last two years, but definitely, because... Yeah, we feel like there's a lot more... People just go to a pub in the UK and they talk, and they, they hang out, and there's less of a feeling of having to be impressed. There's, uh, I mean, my husband's Brazilian. He doesn't want to talk about people's income. He's totally embarrassed when we go to functions here (laughs) 'cause people go all on about how important they are. And they, it's, it's really, it's... I, I, I don't know. I think people want to feel, when they're here, as if they're on the forefront of it. We are in a place, again, Silicon Valley, where a lot's being created. There's a, there's more wealth being generated here, the Bay Area, than in any, any other place in the history of the world. So we're living in that. And we're -

Chris Williamson 21:21 So it's still got that sort of frontier mentality?

Scott Capurro 21:24 Uh, definitely, but also because of what's happening right now. But California's always been a gold rush state. Things go up and down. I think maybe people here are a bit paranoid and freaked out and aware of that. And everyone knows, a lot of people know, that they're one paycheck away from being homeless themselves. And the kind of stress that that creates amongst people-

Chris Williamson 21:40 Yeah.

Scott Capurro 21:40 ... you know, it... I think people here feel trapped. And what I mean is, they're in a job where they're making a quarter million at Oracle to create an app, um, and there's a team down the hall creating that same app. And if you fuck up, you're fired. And then you, they don't just punish you, they fire you. That's the contract you sign with Satan, who runs Oracle. So now, you're living out of your car in a beachfront community where all you can afford is decaf coffee in the morning, and you don't know what you're gonna do with the kids. And you think, oh, you'll be welcomed back into the social media community soon, you'll get a... But you're never welcomed back. You lost the data, you're out. Get the fuck out. We don't even really want tourists here, 'cause we can't afford them. We can't afford you, 'cause we're paying for the homeless. They cost a lot. You cost more, protecting you from people stealing your car or banging down the window of the hotel you stay in and taking all your luggage. All this shit's happening right now. So we can't afford to have visitors. Stay out, get out, don't come back. We don't want your dollars. We're making our own.

Chris Williamson 22:36 I'll do my be-

Scott Capurro 22:37 Uh, uh-

Chris Williamson 22:37 I will, I will do my best. Right. I want

Chris Williamson 22:39 to talk about, um, I spoke to Douglas Murray about this a while ago, about the internal politics of the LGBT group, right? And even calling it a group is kind of dumb. What Douglas brought up, and I keep on having this conversation, 'cause Austin's quite progressive, right? And there's a bunch of different people in there. The fact that the L's and the G's actually have nothing in common. Like, they genuinely, there, there is nothing that those, those two groups have. Everyone, in Douglas's words, is a bit suspicious of the Bs. They're not really too sure what they're doing there. They don't really know. They feel like the Ls or Gs that haven't really committed. And then the Ts, uh, uh, in Douglas's words, are just working against everyone. So has... The last time that I spoke about this was maybe two years ago, 18 months ago. Uh, has anything changed over the last 18 months?

Scott Capurro 23:26 Well, we've added the Is and the Qs.

Chris Williamson 23:28 What's the Is?

Scott Capurro 23:29 Intersexual.

Chris Williamson 23:31 What's that?

Scott Capurro 23:32 I, I don't know. And we've added the, um... I think it means you're what, you're whatever you say you are.

Chris Williamson 23:38 Okay, so that's to do with gender expression. And then what's the Qs?

Scott Capurro 23:41 Questioning.

Chris Williamson 23:42 I thought it stood for queer.

Scott Capurro 23:44 No. We don't... You're not meant to say that word at all. That's not for you. That's like dropping the N bomb. That's for us to say.

Chris Williamson 23:50 Okay. (laughs)

Scott Capurro 23:51 And that's when you whisper, unless you want to whisper in a gay man's ear while you're standing in line for a drink in the Gay Bar. You can do that.

Chris Williamson 23:56 (laughs) as a question.

Scott Capurro 23:58 Yeah. Or, "Hey, queer, get out of my way." He'd be like, "Woo."

Chris Williamson 24:00 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 24:00 Um, (laughs) um, yes. And then there's a plus. Don't forget the plus at the end, the plus.

Chris Williamson 24:06 Everything else.

Scott Capurro 24:07 Every... 'Cause we're desperate for conversation. Just dump any shit on the pile heap, we'll take it. We'll take anybody, right? We're trying to expand. Um, we're branching out. Yes, you know, I think it's all meant to seem inclusive. But there's two kinds of inclusive in my head. There's an inclusive where you don't all agree and that's okay, like a table full of feminists.... uh, where they, a true feminist believes there's, there's a seat for everyone at that table. Um, or there's inclusive where you aren't really, which is these people who are attacking someone like the woman who wrote those books for children where they have dragons and they, they-

Chris Williamson 24:44 Enid Blyton? Not Enid Blyton.

Scott Capurro 24:46 No, the other one. Yeah, her too. But, um-

Chris Williamson 24:48 That was a race thing, right?

Scott Capurro 24:50 Yeah. The, the Harry Potter stuff, the author of that.

Chris Williamson 24:52 Oh, JK Rowling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott Capurro 24:54 Yeah. Who expressed her opinion, which is just her idea, and then she got death threats. So that's meant to be an inclusive part of a society, which isn't inclusive at all. And I think when you're trying to... It's like the US, it's too big. I think the LGBTIQ+ community is too large. I think you're right. I think when a lot of queers dropped dead from AIDS in the '80s and the dykes were like, "We're gonna take over the gay pride event in San Francisco because we can do it better." A lot of queers were like, "You know what? Maybe you can. Because we're busy trying to count our T-cells, so go for it."

Chris Williamson 25:21 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 25:21 "See if you can do that." And, um, and that's why they took the lead in the parade on their bikes. Now it's dykes with bikes for the parade. But fine, the queers couldn't walk anymore anyway. They, they fucking, they couldn't move.

Chris Williamson 25:31 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 25:31 They were, they were dying, so. And they did pretty well. Although what happened-

Chris Williamson 25:37 (laughs) .

Scott Capurro 25:37 ... with the gay pride events, it was out of all of our hands anyway. It became commercialized. So now everything's so accepted and people bring their little meat loaves in baby carriages. "Look at our babies. And we're buying beers. We're heterosexuals. We support Coors beer." Now it's all about product placement, which is what it was gonna become anyway. And that's what brings our community together, which is buying and selling.

Chris Williamson 25:59 Commercializing it.

Scott Capurro 26:01 Yeah. So it's not a community based on, you know, c- uh, communi- community political thought or us banding together to save a group or making things better for certain people. Now it's just about us showing off for a Gap ad, which is I think what upsets people the most. I mean, no one believes a bisexual anyway, but a bisexual in Levi's is even less impressive than, sorry, a queer with AIDS. We were more politically savvy and powerful when we were dying. And now that we're living, we're selling Coca-Cola and soap, like everybody else. So I agree with you. I think the LGBTIQ+ is no longer necessary. I just don't think it is. I think gay people are still marginalized in certain communities. I think they are, in certain communities in the UK. Believe me, on the comedy circuit, I don't always feel safe purely because of my sexuality. But that-

Chris Williamson 26:51 What do you mean when you say safe?

Scott Capurro 26:53 I don't feel like walking back to my hotel room on my own is necessarily a good idea when I'm in Stoke-On-Trent. I just don't. But that might also be because of my accent. And in fact, the first thing I have to do to out myself when I'm on a comedy stage anywhere in the world is, is explain why I'm American and I can, I'm still allowed to tell jokes. Because being American is what offends people. I don't find an audience, and I haven't in a long time, who's offended by the gay thing. It happens so infrequently, but what really gets people going is my accent. Ooh, ooh, they get, they get antsy and insy about that. That's what I first have to deal with. So yeah, I'm not really worried about the gay thing anymore. And I, and I feel like you're right. The lesbian, gay community probably never had that much in common anyway. Although I have to say, during the AIDS crisis, the lesbians were really there. They really, they really stepped up. They stepped up in terms of volunteering a lot because I worked in a lot of volunteering communities in San Francisco. Like the AIDS quilt, for example, the lezzies really did a lot of admin on that, really a lot of admin because they were prepared and they were healthy and they-

Chris Williamson 28:03 Administratively minded.

Scott Capurro 28:05 They were f- You said it. And they were valuable to gay men and really helpful. So in that way, that community bonded together. But again, they came together because of, of, of a virus. So maybe we should put the idea that we're all the same aside until we're in, in a common battle with something else.

Chris Williamson 28:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Capurro 28:23 Because for now-

Chris Williamson 28:24 There was a, uh...

Chris Williamson 28:25 S- speaking about JK Rowling, do you see that she had a photo taken outside of her house recently? Did you see this?

Scott Capurro 28:32 Yeah, I, well, I read about it.

Chris Williamson 28:33 Yeah. JK Rowling has accused three people who campaign on transgender matters of posting a photo of her Edinburgh address on Twitter. The author, who had been criticized for views on trans issues, has reported the matter to police. Police Scotland said they had made, been made a- aware and inquiries were ongoing. In a now deleted social media post, one of the groups said the photo had been removed after they'd received threatening messages online. In her own Twitter thread, Rowling said that the image depicted three activists in front of her home carefully positioning themselves to ensure that the address was visible.

Scott Capurro 29:02 Yes. So it's guerrilla warfare, I think. And I think that she's probably got a security system looking after her now if she didn't already. It's, and-

Chris Williamson 29:10 Madness that you don't already. I mean, the woman's worth-

Scott Capurro 29:12 Edinburgh. I know.

Chris Williamson 29:13 ... an unlimited amount of money.

Scott Capurro 29:15 And that's probably why she felt she needed one anyway, and now she's probably even more terrified. I mean, you know, the thing is, (laughs) I... Look, I'm not gonna take a stance on what she said. I think she's... her, her, her opinions are valuable. They're hers. I don't, I don't care. I, I still don't... I've never read her books. I'm sure she's a lovely person. Um, but you don't want to know what your, what your favorite author or actress or thinks. When I read a Streisand interview, I was like, "Oh my God, she's out of her fucking mind. How have I been obsessed with her music for so long?" She... Barbra Streisand has a museum below her house in Malibu. I'll repeat this, a museum of herself below her house. This is documented. There's been a play written about it on Broadway. (laughs) When you go to her house, she might take you on a tour below her house of the cellar of all her awards and things about herself. She's out of her gourd. When, when she talks about herself, she does it in third person. She's crazy, but she's Barbra. So I ignore all that, right? If you read about certain actors, they're anti-Semitic. I remember reading about an actor I won't mention here who I fucking love, an American actor. I've watched all of his films and he said, in a quote, that "the Jews run Hollywood." So it's like, "Well, I guess I can't watch your movies anymore?"But I do, I mean, you know, Eddie Murphy was a famous homophobe in his, in his first video that won all those awards. The things he said about gay men were horrible. Then, I met him when I lived in LA, waiting tables doing room service. I room serviced him on Academy Award nights three years in a row 'cause he wouldn't go to the Academy Awards. He'd watch them in his hotel room. He's 5'4", he sits on a stool, and he's clearly homosexual. He's a little gay in tight pajamas, I was 25, that hit on me relentlessly. But I did the room service because it's Eddie fucking Murphy. It's complicated, isn't it? He's a brilliant comedian. There are certain things about people that make them interesting, and you, and, and if that makes them interesting, you've also got to sometimes ignore that.

Chris Williamson 31:12 This is the problem that we've got with social media facilitating-

Scott Capurro 31:15 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:15 ... everyone to have an opinion, and also-

Scott Capurro 31:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:17 ... everyone to share that opinion. Yeah, previously, previously you had to work, to be able to get a platform of this size where, even if you were an author, you know, if you-

Scott Capurro 31:25 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:25 ... wanted to talk about your either well-informed or ill-informed opinion on whatever it was, you still-

Scott Capurro 31:32 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:32 ... needed to find an outlet. It was through a newspaper, or on TV-

Scott Capurro 31:35 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:35 ... or whatever. Whereas now, the brain to fingers filter has been completely removed, and millions and millions of people all over the globe can see within seconds what your brain just farted out, and then you decide-

Scott Capurro 31:47 If it-

Chris Williamson 31:47 ... to put it out there. The world isn't meant to consume everyone's innermost monologue in real time 24 hours a day.

Scott Capurro 31:56 Yeah. Yes, it's true. And I think that it makes people braver too, uh, to, to, to shout and yell. And it makes them feel like they have a bit of power when they've felt so powerless for so long. There's that too. And, and everyone's the star of their own video. They're on, they're on all the Facebook, Instagram, whatever, and they're making movies about themselves all the time. TikTok. I mean, and, and their movie, their little video might get, you know, eight million hits and they feel like, they feel like now they have the power to say and feel what they want, you know, live. Yeah. I mean, in, in a way I thought that the internet, as it progressed, would make our lives easier. But it's made it, in fact, more confrontational.

Chris Williamson 32:37 The problem is, I think, that we, we very quickly went from a scarcity of information to a surplus of information-

Scott Capurro 32:43 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:43 ... in the space of probably 10 years.

Scott Capurro 32:46 Sure, yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:46 So I think the optimal amount of information that we had on the internet was m- maybe like 2011 or something there. And then very, very, very quickly, you went from-

Scott Capurro 32:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:58 ... needing to be able to be good at finding information on the internet to-

Scott Capurro 33:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:02 ... being able to be good at discerning signal from noise on the internet.

Scott Capurro 33:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:07 The best people, the smartest people that I know now are the most discerning ones, not the ones that go the deepest. They're the ones that are able to cut through all of the bullshit.

Scott Capurro 33:13 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:13 Whereas, yeah, 10 years ago when we had that one day, whatever it was, Novem- the middle of November in 2011, that was, that was when we had the right amount of information.

Scott Capurro 33:24 It was about, I, I thought it was always gonna be about shopping. I never thought it would become more than that. I just thought it would be about finding items online and purchasing them 'cause I have collectibles. I will show you, my husband, oh, hates them so much. In fact, I was just shopping for a, a mid-century ceramic, um, coffee urn online before you and I spoke. In fact, you interrupted that which pissed me off.

Chris Williamson 33:45 I'm sorry.

Scott Capurro 33:46 That's all right. I found one, though. Um, but I thought that's what the internet was going to be. Ev- it would never be about... 'Cause I thought people liked, I thought people that were looking for information liked research and reading. But as it turns out, nobody does! As it turns out, everyone wants things in active, preferably current, like live images. I've seen so many images live, not live obviously, but filmed, of that car hitting those poor people in Wisconsin.

Chris Williamson 34:15 Yep.

Scott Capurro 34:16 Uh, who wants to watch that image? Apparently people want to watch, you know, a journalist have his head cut off in the Middle East. People (laughs) want, want to see that?

Chris Williamson 34:27 Outrage porn, isn't it? There's, uh, I don't know.

Scott Capurro 34:29 It really is.

Chris Williamson 34:29 So here's, here's one thing that I've been thinking about since I've been out here. So Austin's got a big psychedelic culture, right? Which is people trying to connect, uh, as much as you can talk about like hippie dippy bullshit, um, they're trying to connect with two emotions that I think we're really missing, which is awe and dread. We don't often actually get to experience awe and dread anymore. And I wonder whether seeing, uh, feeling indignation is kind of like an alternative for that. Like, "I can't believe this happened." It's, it's shock, it's outrage, it's indignation. I'm wondering whether people are supplanting what previously the night sky and some pretty nature would have done for us to make us feel small and insignificant, or perhaps a trip to church on a, on a Sunday to, to, you know, feel like we sh- we are connected with the wider universe. I wonder whether that, it, it ticks some of the same boxes. I'm not sure.

Scott Capurro 35:16 So you think social media is the new Jesus, a little bit?

Chris Williamson 35:18 I think that what it-

Scott Capurro 35:19 Because people

Narrator 35:20 Oh, yeah.

Scott Capurro 35:20 ... did shit.

Chris Williamson 35:20 What it, what it facilitates is, um, outrageous videos that people can't believe have happened.

Scott Capurro 35:25 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:25 And that emotion, indignation is not far away from dread and awe.

Scott Capurro 35:30 Right.

Chris Williamson 35:30 I don't think. When you see something that's completely shocking, uh, and I wonder how much that's supplanted it.

Scott Capurro 35:38 Like, did they put one nail through his feet or two? And people just, they can't imagine, and they get somehow turned on by it at the same point of being horrified by it. You know, (sighs) I, I really feel like, because I do, I still do, I'm a dinosaur, so I still make my living in hospitality and live performance, really. I'm a babysitter as a standup comic. And I really feel, um, when I'm on stage, like people expect, they, they expect something so vivid and aggressive now from comedy. Then when they don't get it, they're disappointed. And I think that's been driven by what you're describing.

Chris Williamson 36:16 How do you mean vivid and aggressive?

Scott Capurro 36:19 I have people say to me, wh- because I just did a weekend at a, at a mainstream club, where I did five shows in three nights. Hour-long sets. And I had people asking me to cover certain subject matters. And I'm just, I'm not gonna cover it on stage. I'm not gonna talk about that on stage. I mean, I don't have boundaries about material. I'll, I'll talk about anything really. But, uh, I, I've-People were like, "Oh, you didn't push that far enough. You talked about that, but you didn't push it far enough." Like, you know. And it's like, look, everything's, everything goes to the nth degree now, so quickly. Every subject becomes explosive really quickly. Like, you know, that woman who used to be fat, who isn't fat any more, the British one.

Chris Williamson 36:57 Adele.

Scott Capurro 36:58 The, yeah, the, the chimney sweep, cooking with five ranges. She, um, she was here with Oprah, and Oprah kept trying to goad her, and she's like, "Look, I can't... (laughs) Uh, I've lost a bit of weight." Oprah's like, "You've let so many people down. So many people are sad. They're suicidal because they're fat and you're not anymore." The- it's like, "Oprah, Jesus, rein it in." And she kept reining Oprah in, saying, "Look, I've got to make a living. I've got to deal with my own shit." She was very funny, I thought.

Chris Williamson 37:26 And live past 70 as well, hopefully.

Scott Capurro 37:29 And she was very... It's just, you know what? Part of the reason why I started going to the UK 25 years ago to do standup was because, um, the c- the culture is less, less vici- vicious, less savage than the US culture.

Chris Williamson 37:45 It feels-

Scott Capurro 37:46 When I was on stage there, I didn't feel like... I mean, I felt, I came out in my first show I did there, in Edinburgh. But it wasn't necessary. For one thing, look at me. But also, the audience, if you have tails and a horn, they don't care. It'd just be funny, the British. They don't, they're not impressed or depressed by any of that. I mean, like I said, I don't feel always safe in certain environments when I'm in the UK, but that has very little to do with my being on stage. And I al- I've always felt here like I lived in an explosive situation, and people want comedians to figure shit out for them sometimes. And now you've got less time to figure stuff out on stage. People's... They want it now, they want it faster, they want it more aggressive, they want it more brutal, they want it louder. Even the fact that comedy's become such a big business and you see comics performing in 10,000-seat arenas with the head mic on, screaming at people for an hour. It's just become, everything's become e- like I said, nth degree. And the argument is no longer... Like, I used to feel like I... One of the reasons why I preferred performing here in the US, in a way, sometimes, was I felt like I could have more, uh, more of an extended conversation about race and politics here. But I don't feel that an- anymore here. I don't feel that.

Chris Williamson 38:56 Do

Chris Williamson 38:57 you not think that immediately anyone who looks remotely talented or has a platform gets co-opted into trying to take a stand on something? So for instance, we had the... Laurel Hubbard, who was the New Zealand transgender weightlifter who competed at the Olympics, and the other three women, I think it was the three women that she was competing with, uh, for the, uh, that were most likely a podium, were asked in, or it may have been aft- afterward, asked in a press conference, um, "What do you think? Obviously this is an incredibly unique opportunity. You're witnessing history unfold." And there's a nine-second pause, and then one of the girls just leans forward, presses the button to activate her mic, and goes, "No, thank you," and just turns the mic off. And that, that to me was really reassuring, 'cause you think, "These people are good at lifting heavy things from the ground to over their head. They're not... This isn't their role."

Scott Capurro 39:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:46 Stop looking at these fucking athletes like they're supposed to be... I understand, I understand that if you are in a position of social gravitas, if you have talent, that you can use your platform in order to help, uh, push forward a particular narrative because you have reach and people respect what you do. But that should be the anomalous case of the person who happens to... The, you know, the Cassius Clay deciding not to go to Vietnam thing, right?

Scott Capurro 40:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:13 Right? Like that, that, that's an anomaly from history. That's why it was so interesting. It shouldn't be that every fucking person with more than 10,000 followers on some social media is now a platform. And the reason for this is that every political party is trying to pick up whatever naught point naught naught naught one percent of influence that they can and just co-opt everybody in. That, "Yes, this person decides to stand with us or stand against us."

Scott Capurro 40:38 Right. Well, I blame, you know, I blame Pontius Pilate in, in a way, because he created Jesus into the first social media figure, 'cause Mary sold her son out 'cause she wanted to be famous as well. So it all happened then, and people are still paralleling their lives to that. They still think, "I can win." You know, I, I, I agree with you. I mean, I, I think when comedians go on Twitter and try to fight a political opinion, it's like, just write a joke about it. You're not a political activist.

Chris Williamson 41:09 That's your out, that's your outlet. Your outlet is to make this funny and do it in a show.

Scott Capurro 41:13 You're... Use your voice as a comic. But, you know, everything's a, everything's a, a talent contest now. And for a lot of people that are wondering how they're gonna make a living or, or get famous or be rich, if they do a shocking video, that'll do it.

Chris Williamson 41:31 There you go. There you go. Have you-

Scott Capurro 41:32 They're try-

Chris Williamson 41:32 You might've missed this, 'cause I, you don't strike me as a Joe Rogan listener, but Joe Rogan had Snoop Dogg on his show a couple of days ago, and he brought up that one of the reasons he thinks that they are getting people to focus on race is the fact that it'll distract us from the fact that class is the real problem.

Scott Capurro 41:48 Mm-hmm. Of course. Yeah. Always has been. I mean, you know, Britain hides it better by denying it exists, but there's a, an ingrained class system there that the US is embarrassed by, 'cause we tried to break away from it when we left, and it's, it's even more here. And here, it seems based... E- externally, you think it's based on income, but it's not. There's, there's an opaque one percent in this country that not only will I never meet, I'll never even know who they are, and they're running everything. So yeah, there's a system here that... (sighs) That it seems to create a, uh, an, a group of people that really have, have no... Again, we talked about this. They, they have no empathy. They have no reason (sighs) to feel... You know, w- when I've... If you've been watching Succession, I know it's not a documentary, but I've worked for rich people.... uh, many times for very, very wealthy people. And they're fucking miserable, and they take it out on each other. And, um, my family has a bit of money based on, you know, investments and property. And the way my family treats one another is not that dissimilar from what you're watching (laughs) on TV. There's a lot of suspicion and threat, because no one wants to be knocked down a peg. No one wants to go down a peg. And man, it, it's just... Here, oh, there's so much... And something my friends identified as homophobia here in the US still, it's not when you're, when, when people you know that are in positions of power treat you that way. It's class. Because they think, if you've identified yourself in a subculture, like the LGBT community in this country, that that's 'cause you're a loser. And what they mean is, that they themselves might suck cock, as a guy, but they don't... But they're, they would never identify as being gay, because they don't see themselves as politically motivated by that community. And they're winners. They've been told they're winners their whole lives. They went to Yale, they went to graduate school, they have a PhD, they teach at Stanford, they got a wife, they got kids, because that's what a winner looks like. And to be gay and to not have those things, to not... To have your power reduced at that level, even, and especially, at the educational level, the higher education level in this country, makes you a loser. It's a class system. It's not about being queer. It's about being a winner. And if you have Black skin, it's not your fault, but i- it identifies you in a certain way, and people associate things with you, which more... Maybe more media-driven than anything else. But again, it's not about race. It's about whether you're at the top or bottom.

Chris Williamson 44:24 Literally. Did you see that the Women's March group sent out an email with the average number of donations recently, and the number was unfortunate? You see this?

Scott Capurro 44:34 Whoa. (laughs) What do you mean, "Unfortunate"?

Chris Williamson 44:37 The Women's March group sent out an email with average donations and apologized for including 1492 in there.

Scott Capurro 44:43 Whoa.

Chris Williamson 44:43 "We apologize deeply for the email that was sent today. 1492 was our average donation amount this week."

Scott Capurro 44:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:48 "It was an oversight on our part to not make the connection to a year of co- colonization, conquest, and genocide for Indigenous people."

Scott Capurro 44:56 Oh, God. Oh, Jesus.

Chris Williamson 44:56 "Especially before Thanksgiving."

Scott Capurro 44:58 Oh. It's not even the proper year. They're reading that from, from crappy history book from their elementary school. It's a different year. It's all made up. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, it's hilarious. Go, "That's funny." See? The-

Chris Williamson 45:11 That was supposed to be the year that Christopher Columbus had stepped on American soil.

Scott Capurro 45:14 He did, yeah. He did it that year. Or so he said. Who knows? People-

Chris Williamson 45:19 1492, so that number itself, the, the average amount of donations was problematic.

Scott Capurro 45:24 Yes. And he might have been in other parts of th- of not the US, but America, before that. Other people were. Anyway, yes. Um, yeah. That's, that's something worth feeling bad about. But this is what I mean. Comedians don't have to be non-funny about this stuff, or you know, politically motivated in some correct way. There's so much material. That's one great thing about all this. That's why I miss Trump a little bit. There's so many jokes in all this. I mean, if you're not writing material about this, then you are a loser. I mean, if you are avoiding this stuff on stage... It's one thing I like about Rogan. You know, I've only worked with him once. Again, I was doing a weekend here in the city at the same club I discussed earlier, and he was popping in, and he wanted to do his own show. So he, we closed my show, and at midnight, he went on that same stage, 'cause it's such a popular club, and did his own set. And I watched him, and I was, I was impressed how fucking intelligent he is live. And I th- I wish, I, I wish he trusted himself enough on his own show. Not that I listen to every podcast, but I have listened to it. And I feel like he dilutes it a little bit, maybe just on the ones I heard. But he is a brainiac. He is. And, and I do like that he covers current subject matter in his sets and that he's funny about them. You may not agree with what he says, you may hate his politics, whatever. But all these people getting angry about a recent comedy show on Netflix, where the comedian went on about LGBT rights and trans rights, people just fucking lost their sum, quit their job, or protested, blah, blah, blah, over Chappelle's set. I watched it. It's Chappelle. He pushes buttons. He does what Chappelle does. I wasn't offended in any way by what he said about the LGBT. In fact, I thought he said something brilliant about gay... You know, gay people are liberal until they're white, which is true. Can gay people be racist? Yes, they can. We have a whole racist subculture in the LGBT community that I won't go on about right now. But a lot of guys, when... Are you a rice queen? Are you a sticky rice queen? Are you a brown rice queen? Are you a ding queen? Uh, all these terms meaning skin color about who you're fucking. So yeah, gay people can be racist, if you're wondering. And he covered it. A lot of gay comics wouldn't go near that with their acts. They wouldn't be brave enough. We have to wait till Chappelle does it, right? And then complain about it. You know, I feel bad, like Andrew said, Andrew Doyle, he's a friend of ours, for all those people who had a gun held to their heads and made to watch that set on Netflix. You don't have to watch it. Change the channel. Turn it off. No one cares about your fucking opinion about it. You know? If you're offended, you're af- Good. People are offended by comedy all the time. That's 'cause it works. They're just ideas. They're not gonna hurt you. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:56 Didn't you get... You got, uh, in some trouble

Chris Williamson 47:59 on Australian TV for doing something.

Scott Capurro 48:01 Yeah. I-

Chris Williamson 48:01 Didn't you get canceled from Australian TV or whatever?

Scott Capurro 48:03 Basically, never been invited back because of that.

Chris Williamson 48:05 Uh, the entire country of Australia has a problem with you.

Scott Capurro 48:08 There's a myth about it now, too. There's, there's whole memes about it, and there's, there's sayings. "Don't Capuro me on this." You're not gonna Capure us, are you? Meaning, "You're not gonna go on TV and do a different set than you promised, right? You're not gonna get people fired from this network. You're not gonna..." So, the story is that I told jokes about raping the Virgin Mary. Now, I didn't tell those jokes. Do you have any? 'Cause if you have them and they're good, I'll tell them. Don't have them. What I talked about was Christ being on the cross and forgetting his safe word, is what I talked about. But they had seen my scripted set, and they had denied me a rehearsal.I won't defend myself in this. I don't have to. But what they did was change the story after my set came out live on TV, to defend themselves. Now, at the time, this is long- this is 20 years ago, I would've used it to push the show forward. That's what I would've done. "Let's run with this." But they were cowards and didn't know how to do that. The Festival of Melbourne, my management in London, cowered to what they thought public opinion was. As it turned out, people thought it was hilarious we'd seen it, but they worried, people got fired at the network, I heard, and it became, it became a negative thing, which is now if it happened, 'cause of social media, I'd be huge because of that. It would've had me, I would've toured the world by the time... And because th- the Australians, honestly, i- in media, are a bit homophobic. (laughs) 'Cause they, they really were then. It's like, "Why is the gay man in the room the smartest one with all the power? How did that happen?" It's also complicated too 'cause the show's host was a clo- famously a closet case, and didn't want his image soiled or associated with, in any way, the ga- gay community. There was a lot of shit going on.

Chris Williamson 49:49 That's something that I've noticed. I did a, a talk at the start of the, uh... And partway through it, there was, um, a couple of emails that got sent to the group that were organizing it that said, uh, "Have you seen this? Have you seen what Chris has been talking about?" And it was a link to a trailer on my Instagram of me and Douglas Murray, and Douglas was talking about the Chaz Chop Autonomous Zone, and saying... Just being Douglas, right? Talking about it. I don't talk throughout the entire trailer. I don't say anything, but I do laugh. And they said that this laugh is, uh, we're taking this laugh as the fact that he is agreeing. This is a signal that he's agreeing with what Douglas says. "Are you really inviting this person?" So when that happened, first off, th- this is the indignation, right? You think this is absolutely insane. F- I, you know, Douglas's points are his own, I was laughing, it's my show. It's a trailer from eight months ago. The only reason that this would've been sent in by multiple people, remembering it's a really old trailer, is if it's a coordination on their part to get multiple people to send it in, so on and so forth. But for a moment, I saw, in that situation, "Oh, this could be, this could be my thing."

Scott Capurro 50:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:56 "This could be canceled for a laugh. This could be, this is how I, this is how I could get myself onto Tucker Carlson, or this is how I could get myself..." You know, you do the tour off the back of it, you get the right people to retweet it, and you notice this, the opportunity arising. "This could be my Evergreen State for Brett Weinstein or my Bill C16 for Jordan Peterson." Something innocuous that, that ends up blowing up in somebody's face.

Scott Capurro 51:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:21 And that, that... Like, I didn't follow through with it. They said, "Look, don't antagonize anyone. Don't reply on Twitter." Sure enough, the whole thing dissipated, went away, did the talk, it's absolutely fine. But for a moment, I saw in the less gracious part of my nature a bit rise up and say, "This could be... This could be the beginning now." And the same way that we have perverse incentives, I think, for potentially some people that are involved in cases as jurors, or as judges, or as whatever, the lawyers. Um, I think that you have this with cancellation now, that some people almost go out of their way. Like, cancellation's the new Love Island. If you manage to get canceled somewhere, not sufficiently bad that the public hates you, but bad enough to garner a little bit of attention, that's your springboard to a career.

Scott Capurro 52:01 Yeah. As long as you're on a kiddie fiddling, anything else, people will come out and see you, I think. And yeah, I think it's the only way to sell papers now, is to put bad news on the front of them. And bad news becomes good, 'cause suddenly you're recognized. But they've said for a long time, right, any publicity is good publicity. I think Harvey Fierstein was criticized for saying that decades ago, uh, during the AIDS crisis, that any publicity for gay men is good 'cause it gets us out there and makes us more real. I think it was Harvey. But either way, that's, I think, always been the case. And now, it doesn't take a, a media facility like a newspaper or a network to promote it. You can do it out of your home. I just feel like, though... (laughs) He laughed. How dare he? It's like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:49 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 52:49 It makes aud-... I just did a show at a, at a very, kind of, uh, upscale kind of area on Saturday night, uh, the wine country area. And it was sorted. And, um, beautiful little room, a tasting room, I did a comedy show there. Th- The staff were, are great, very supportive. But the audience were just so clammed up, like, a lot of very... The whole room was white except for one Black guy. He was enjoying it. But the rest of the room were a lot of, like, 20 to 35-year-old white women with their arms crossed, just very anxious about just about everything I said on stage. Now, I've been doing this for quite a while, and if you pay to come see me, eh, you kind of know what you're in for. I mean, I'm no, I'm no surprise. It's the same old shit rehashed every fucking time is how I am. That's my act. So, it... But, but there, getting more, just more about everything, which makes me poke and prod. And the more they restrict, the more I push, you know? So, at the end, a s- bunch of people came up, "We really enjoyed it." And I said, "I th- you might reflect that in your response next time then." And I might think about coming back, because (laughs) I'm not here to be your sounding board to see if it's okay if you laugh at this and then laugh at it in the car on the way home. I don't want to be a part of that conversation. I want the conversation in the room. But one thing that I find, with all that's going on around us with social media and people being terrified of being caught on camera responding, like you just said, is that immediate response is stifled. So I'm terrified about people not actually telling me what they think. It really fucking freaks me out.

Chris Williamson 54:18 Oh, so they've got a public persona and a private persona?

Scott Capurro 54:21 And to think that you're gonna leave the room, and that suddenly what people actually think about you is gonna be voiced. I fucking hate that. It's why I never talk negatively about comedians, people I work with. There's no point in it anyway, it's not gonna get you anywhere. But I don't... If I feel badly about somebody, I'll just tell them. I never want to be that person leaving the room that becomes a, kind of, you know, a burden.... oh, it just fucking freaks me out. So-

Chris Williamson 54:42 So here's a, h- here's an interesting element of that from my industry, which is nightlife. And when I first started doing club nights and my first ever event was a big bar crawl where people would buy a T-shirt, and your T-shirt was your ticket, and there was tasks on the back like pull a pig, get off with three randoms, uh, down a drink with somebody that you don't know, like, get a piggyback from one venue to another, blah, blah, blah. And people used to write on the inside of their arms the first half of the alphabet and the second half of the alphabet, and you have to tick off the letters of the first name of the person that you'd kissed. And, you know, you're running around at the end of the night trying to find a Zara or something. And, um, I wondered, I never thought about it, but I had a conversation with a buddy who did the same thing as me, the same franchise, but down south. And he said, "Where has that culture gone? Where has that kind of sloppy, uh, uh, very, very casual transactional, uh, physical relationship shit gone for 18 to 21-year-olds, specifically in the UK, but maybe in the US as well?" And he said his idea was that because of the advent of smartphones, no one can ever do anything in public that's private anymore.

Scott Capurro 55:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:46 You can never get off. You can never pull a pig on a bar crawl without five videos of that now haunting you for the remainder of your days. That's going to be with you.

Scott Capurro 55:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:56 If you decide to do something, and that's caused people to have far more scruples about how they behave publicly. That was his idea. And that, I don't know if it's true, but it fucking makes a lot of sense.

Scott Capurro 56:05 It does. I think, you know, no one can wake up and say, "I don't remember what happened last night" anymore, 'cause someone will hold up a camera up to you and say, "This is gonna be-"

Chris Williamson 56:14 "This is exactly (laughs) what happened." Yeah, exactly.

Scott Capurro 56:16 So you can't have a hangover and forget about it. And I think, you know, that makes people... Like this, this k- this trial that's going on, uh, right now in the US about this, um, African American man who was hunted down by two white guys and, and murdered in the street, you know, the people, they don't just have witnesses, 'cause witnesses are tricky and, you know, trials can never really trust witnesses 'cause people see all sorts of things differently. But a lot of it's on film. (laughs) So, the guys themselves filmed it. It's why, you know, Hitler's still with us, you know. The big H is still so popular. 'Cause it was really the first kind of fas- it was a fascist revival, but really the first international battle that was filmed. The wars before that, we're not so sure. But Hitler put everything on cinema, and, um, that's why he's still such a big draw, I think. And so people see all that and think, you know, "I gotta b- I gotta keep my job, and I can't keep my job if they see me doing what you described." 'Cause self-masturbation can be, like also what you said, can be perceived as, as less casual and less fun and flirtatious, but you can perceive it as being misogynistic or racist. So you gotta be careful. Like if you-

Chris Williamson 57:29 Interpretation's always open like that, right?

Scott Capurro 57:32 I mean, no one can say, I mean, you know, there are so many things that people feel they can't reveal about themselves 'cause it might, like, it might be seen as a preference, which is racism, right? If you have a preference, you're racist right away. So, you gotta be careful. I mean, um, I don't have these boundaries in h- in the way that I work and what I do on stage. But I certainly don't... There's a few things I won't say anymore. I never thought I'd say that, but it's true.

Chris Williamson 58:03 Why?

Scott Capurro 58:03 'Cause you'll lose them for too long. Well, I don't drop the N-bomb on stage anymore. I used to, and there's a purpose behind it. And I don't drop the P-bomb anymore. Because you'll just lose them for too long. Before, you could lose them for about 30 seconds and then they'd recover, and I could manage that. But now they'll just completely stop listening. So, there's no point.

Chris Williamson 58:26 Talking about Rogan, he's got a new bit in his standup show where he's talking about why he'll still use the word retard but he won't use the N-word.

Scott Capurro 58:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:34 And he's talking about it for ages and going back and forth. And they say-

Scott Capurro 58:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:38 ... "Wh- wh- what is it about the word retards that, uh, means that you will say it and about the N-word that means that you won't?" He says, "It's because I'm a lot more scared of Black people than I am of retards."

Scott Capurro 58:46 (laughs) That's a great line. Genius.

Chris Williamson 58:49 Yeah.

Scott Capurro 58:50 Um, (laughs) uh-

Chris Williamson 58:53 (laughs) It's so wrong.

Scott Capurro 58:54 And I, I'm talking about right now why my husband wants a k- wants... He, he talks about having children all the time, and I talk about how I, I only want a Downes. I only want a Downey. If I'm gonna have a kid, I want it to be a Downey. And so, I think I, I escape using the word retard in that bit because if I do, the, the, the, the empathy I'm trying to put forward, I lose it. But I, if you have a good joke about... Look, when I teach a comedy course I do in London sometimes, um, in Isla- in, um, Stoke Newington, uh, when I try to find funny people in that area to teach a comedy course to them, I do ask them, and I've been told to do this by other comics, one good challenge is to ask them to write a rape joke. First thing they should do, write a rape joke. 'Cause they're hard to write. But if you learn to write a good one, that's great. I've got about 30 in my act, and I still tell them, but 'cause they're good, and I gotta kill time. Um, but I'm not gonna kill rape 'cause it's a money-maker. And if you can write a, a brilliant one, great. And there is still an audience that wants to laugh, and there's still an audience that wants to write those letters on their arms, and there's still an audience that wants to have a couple of drinks and do something they can forget about. And they, that's, I think, the majority of us. And when I talk to people in Britain who are audience members, and I stay after and chat with them, I'm relieved, and it res- rela- it, it, it, I find it restorative for what I do. Because they just wanna have a good time. You know, there's so many reasons for me to be nervous about performing in front of, say, um, Army and Navy guys who go to The Comedy Store a lot in London on their time off. Because the Army and the Navy in, in the UK and the US have, have this image of how they are, right? Which w- might not be inviting to someone like me, not just gay but American and flamboyant and flirty on stage and dirty and unnecessary and, you know, nauseating.But when I talk to those guys after, they're like, "You are perfect. We'd love to have you," so many times. "We would love to." I'm like, even with my accent. And they're like, "We love Americans," and the American soldiers show up, it's a party. You would kill in Crete. You would kill in Cyprus. You- But then I call these companies to book me, and they're, they just, they just will not. They won't want to do it. They don't want Americans. They don't want gay men. They don't want someone, they don't want someone my age. They don't want someone white. There's so many reasons to not book me, you know? And I, if I only t- talked to industry people in my business, I would quit. But the audience is great. And that's why I do it.

Chris Williamson 1:01:20 Gay man's the new white man. That's the problem.

Scott Capurro 1:01:22 Well, I think, you know, I think the gay thing is now normalized, and that's why I can't get away with as much as far as people are concerned on stage 'cause we're not naughty anymore.

Chris Williamson 1:01:30 Yeah.

Scott Capurro 1:01:31 Just like you. So we-

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 Well, Douglas, Douglas had this bit, uh, from The Madness of Crowds where he said, "You know that your minority has been completely assimilated into a culture when you have to put up with the same level of shit of everybody else."

Scott Capurro 1:01:44 (laughs) Yeah. It's true. Yeah, I mean, uh, believe me, the stuff I used to get away with on stage, it's, it's more difficult now, which makes it more appealing to me, like how to find a way, 'cause that's always been the challenge of standup is, is to be relevant. And it doesn't mean because you're older that you can't be, and I don't think an audience thinks when I walk on stage, "Oh, he's old. I don't wanna listen to this." S- A couple young people might think, "He's a dinosaur," but I don't think they do. I think, again, they just wanna enjoy themselves. So it's up, it's up to us to make our language accessible. But that's always been the case to make a story from a stranger make sense in front of a room full of strangers. So that's what we have to do. When, when comics complain, "Oh, they're too ... Dinosaurs are so woke," or, "We're being canceled," or, "You can't say this." Like, no, no, no, no, no. You need to find a way to make your act accessible. They've paid. It's not their job to dissect your act to make it funny. That's up to you. So

Scott Capurro 1:02:36 ...

Chris Williamson 1:02:36 Scott Capuro, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with whatever you're doing or harass you online, where should they go?

Scott Capurro 1:02:42 My website. It's all about me, me, me. So all the information is there. It's just my name, scottcapuro.com. Listen, thanks for calling. It's great to see you.

Chris Williamson 1:02:49 I know.

Scott Capurro 1:02:50 By Austin. I've ... It's been really fun to do this. I forgot that we were doing it, and, and then I remembered how much I wanted to, and now I'm really glad we did.

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 Me too, man. Me too.

Scott Capurro 1:02:57 So ...

Chris Williamson 1:02:57 Uh, when are you back in the UK? Are you back any time soon?

Scott Capurro 1:03:00 January 19th. My husband's craving to get back. He is so sick of this country (laughs) . Um, yeah. So we're gonna ... Yeah. January 19th. But I'll, and I'll see you there.

Chris Williamson 1:03:12 Yes, you will do.

Scott Capurro 1:03:13 Good luck to your ...

Chris Williamson 1:03:13 And, uh, Thanksgiving.

Scott Capurro 1:03:14 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:03:14 Enjoy Thanksgiving tomorrow.

Scott Capurro 1:03:16 Well, thank you. You too. Are you stuffing anything, or are you gonna be waited on?

Chris Williamson 1:03:19 Scott, come on. We've managed to, we've managed to get through-

Scott Capurro 1:03:21 Are you cooking anything? Are you being waited on?

Chris Williamson 1:03:22 No, of course not. Of cour- I'm just ... Yeah. I'm just ... I'm turning up. I'm the ... I don't know what I am. I'm the token Brit at the table.

Scott Capurro 1:03:30 Don't you wanna learn how to cook? The tur- turkey, it's so fun. It's the be- You feel like a child.

Chris Williamson 1:03:34 Are you doing it? Are you doing it tomorrow?

Scott Capurro 1:03:35 Oh yeah, so easy to do. You make the stuffing in 10 minutes, you shove it in, you put it in the oven, and you leave it. You don't ... You never open the oven again. And four hours later, it pops out. And people are so impressed you've done almost nothing. It's great. You, you will-

Chris Williamson 1:03:48 I'll have to ring you... I'll FaceTime you tomorrow if I'm struggling.

Scott Capurro 1:03:51 All right.

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 All right.

Scott Capurro 1:03:52 Let me know.

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 Catch you later on set.

Scott Capurro 1:03:53 Cranberry sauce. Send it.

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 (laughs)

Scott Capurro 1:03:56 Have a great one. Thank you, Chris. Nice to see you.

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.