Modern WisdomHow To Think Like History’s Greatest Genius - Michael Gelb
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,913 words- 0:00 – 6:45
Why Would We Want to Think Like Da Vinci?
- CWChris Williamson
Why would anyone want to think like Leonardo da Vinci?
- MGMichael Gelb
Why would anybody not want to think (laughs) like Leonardo da Vinci, if you even dreamed that it was possible? Most people... are never really made aware of the phenomenal unlimited potential with which we are all born, the incredible brains that we're gifted with. But they didn't come with a manual, so, (laughs) you know, just like baby ducks learn to walk by imitating their mothers, we learn how to think and how to be by the people we get to imitate, and usually that's a default setting, your mom and dad, the people around you when you grow up, your teachers. But what if you called on history's greatest genius to be your personal mentor in utilizing those amazing capabilities?
- CWChris Williamson
What was da Vinci like as a person? What was his demeanor?
- MGMichael Gelb
He was charming, he was funny. (laughs) He was elegant, uh, he liked to dress really well. He wore the finest clothes that he could afford, the finest fabrics. He was a musician. He had a gift for... making people feel comfortable, for connecting with others, which is part of how he was able to get high-level patrons throughout his career. He charmed them and they, they thought, "Well, we kind of like this guy, let's keep him around and see what he can do." And then he winds up, you know, painting the (laughs) Last Supper and the Mona Lisa and a few other things.
- CWChris Williamson
So he was a canny operator, then?
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, yeah. I mean, you had to be. To, to get by at- at- at that time, you needed, uh, patronage. You needed a sponsor. Just like I notice you always have these great sponsors on your show (laughs) and I want to buy all those products every time I watch. It's like, "Yeah, I need that backpack."
- CWChris Williamson
They're my patrons.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, exactly, Needman Magic Backpack, shout out. Um, how much... you know, I- I love Italy. I've spent a lot of time in Florence and Rome, uh, recently came back from Venice. Um, you know, the period of time Michelangelo, da Vinci, uh... Politically very interesting in Italy. How much did the sort of political landscape, the cultural landscape of Italy at the time, do you think sort of shape who he was, his opportunities, the way he saw the world, the places that he placed his efforts?
- MGMichael Gelb
Sure. Well, he had to move because of political turmoil. His, uh, tenure, his original tenure in Florence came to an end when he saw that, uh, he might be better off under the patronage of Ludovico Sforza, the Duke of Milan. So you probably read the most famous employment application letter of all time.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you tell people about that- that letter, please?
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs) Well, you gotta love it because, "Most illustrious lord," and then he basically says, "Having seen what other people can do, I gotta tell you, I can do way better." (laughs) And then he goes on to say, "I can build you bridges, I can take care of everything in ti- in times of war," because the felt need of despots, like Sforza was, "Build me some cannon, uh, help me get, uh, underwater to blow up the enemy's fortress." So Leonardo goes on and on about how he can help with all this, and then he says, uh, I think it's number 11, he says, "Oh yeah, by the way, I can do a little painting." (laughs) And then he says, "Not only that, I'll come to your palace and I'll prove that I can do all of this," and then he says, "all in most gracious humility." (laughs) He got the job. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
The... It's that line, "Also I can paint,"
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, that I just adore. You know, this sort of huge illustrious list of things, war machines, battle plans, technology, engineering... "Also I can paint," is just-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So did he see... did he see his artistic endeavors as kind of... second string in- in some regard?
- MGMichael Gelb
Not at all.
- CWChris Williamson
Or was that him just playing to the fact that this guy probably needed war machines and- and curating to the audience?
- MGMichael Gelb
You gotta give the customer what they're- what they're asking for. Uh, and he want- what he wanted and what he needed, to come back to your earlier question, you know, he- he wound up, he was in the Vatican for a while, uh, he was under the, uh, patronage of Cesare Borgia. Uh, he had a second time in Florence under the reconstituted Medici, uh, he then was back in Milan for a while under the patronage of the French, and then he spent the last three years of his life as the philosopher and basically high-level executive coach to Francois I, (laughs) the ki- the King of France. So, he had to do what he had to do in order to continue to do what he really wanted to do, which was to understand the mind of God. What Leonardo was passionately curious about was, what is truth? What is beauty? What is goodness? How do they all fit together? So for him, art, what we call art and what we call science, were just ways of exploring truth. What is so? What is real? What is the nature of things? You know, he- he draws the very first reasonably accurate drawing of an embryo in the womb.... 'cause he really wanted to understand the secret of life. So, the science is, he did dissections of more than 30 bodies, which was very, very hard to do at that- that time without running water and, uh, electric light, and refrigeration, and so on and so forth. Uh... And yet, the way he drew the things that he was dissecting are so exquisitely beautiful, they are works of art and science. And tha- that's the fifth principle for thinking like Leonardo is, arte scienza, the integration of art and science.
- CWChris Williamson
The drive
- 6:45 – 9:39
Differences Between Michelangelo & Da Vinci
- CWChris Williamson
that he has to do the things that he does, it seems to come from, sort of quite a balanced place. You know, I- I- I, as you go around the Vatican or wherever else, there's sort of two... It's Michelangelo and da Vinci, Michelangelo and da Vinci. Like, that's what-
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
...the tour guides are- are telling you about. But it seems, at least unless I'm remembering inaccurately, Michelangelo was very much like a conflicted soul. You know, sort of very pessimistic, he had a dark dog that followed him around. It seems like he maybe basically kind of had permanent depression throughout his entire life. Um, difficult to work with, like rambunctious, uh- uh, disagreeable, um, and you can see where I think the drive for that kind of a person seems to be easier to understand in some ways that he's got this sort of fervent need to prove himself, a validation, uh, to put his work forward because the external accolades will fill the internal void hopefully. Um, da Vinci's much more difficult for me to work out how he's motivated-
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
...to work so hard. Does that make sense?
- MGMichael Gelb
I lo- I love that. I love that, uh, the contrast between Leonardo and Michelangelo is a wonderful character study of genius, and they both reflect aspects of our own quest to express ourselves, and achieve, and live our life's purpose. Some of us do it from guilt and shame, (laughs) like Michelangelo. And some of us do it from love and just passionate, deepest level curiosita. So, you were in the, uh, Vatican, and, uh, no doubt you saw the amazing, obviously the- the ceiling, uh- uh- uh, of the Sistine Chapel. But the Judgment of Christ painting on the front wall of the chapel, uh- uh, with the amazing powerful figure of Christ sending some people up to heaven, sending everybody else down below. And do you know where Michelangelo is on that painting? 'Cause you know they always put themselves in these paintings.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
You go back and look at this again, he's hung out, his- his flayed skin is hung out on a branch, hovering in purgatory, roasting over the fires of hell. (laughs) So that was- that was Michelangelo's painting of his own self-image. Having said that- having said that, he did, uh- uh- uh, he did do the David. (laughs) And the Pieta.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- MGMichael Gelb
And-
- CWChris Williamson
Which are shows of love, right? They're hope, it's upward aiming, it's the greatest that we can be.
- MGMichael Gelb
Amazing. Ama- so- so that's just the thing is we can't just reduce them-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
...to, uh- uh, simple psychological explanations.
- CWChris Williamson
Do-
- 9:39 – 12:02
The Dark Side of Da Vinci
- CWChris Williamson
s- show me the other side then. If that's the light side of Michelangelo, what's the dark side of da Vinci?
- MGMichael Gelb
Great. Great. Great. The- the dark side of da Vinci is- is twofold. One is, he's been criticized, uh, a lot for not following through and actually finishing things. Now I've defended him because (laughs) I feel like he was so interested in just pure perfection. He wasn't competing with Michelangelo or other artists, he was competing with God. So, part of why he couldn't finish things is he couldn't quite get everything as perfect as nature, which is what he wanted to do. I also think that he knew he was a genius, and he ultimately didn't really care whether the monks got their altarpiece or not. He thought he was onto something more profound. I'd say the other dark side is that he went through a period towards the end of his life of- of- of profound doubt. He writes in the margins of his notebook, uh, "Did I really accomplish anything?" Which is kind of amazing when you consider what he actually accomplished. So I think the- the sense of self-doubt, of maybe losing faith or... I don't even think- it's not really even a dark. I don't see it as light- light or dark, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
...uh, uh, it's 'cause it's- it creates what he called a- a- a chiaroscuro. Chiaroscuro is the contrast of light and dark. There is no light without the dark.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
And there's no dark without the light. And that's part of what makes Leonardo's artwork so interesting, is the way light emerges from the dark, and he- he pioneered that, and that's part of the deeper meaning, to me, of his work, and why we're so drawn to it, so fascinated, uh, and why most people haven't really plumbed the depths and understood the- the real genius that Leonardo, 550 years ago, was sharing for all of humanity.
- 12:02 – 15:57
Things We Don’t Know About Da Vinci
- CWChris Williamson
What, what do you wish more people realized that Da Vinci had done? You know, people understand lots of the work, the well-known stuff. What are the, uh, early records or like the- the underground hits that-
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... should've- should've had more plays on Spotify?
- MGMichael Gelb
Well, yeah. (laughs) He did, he did write, uh, Il Sole Non Si Muove, The Sun Does Not Move, many years before Copernicus created the heliocentric-
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah, way. It's pretty wild.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, uh, uh, um, a- and- and having said that, the thing I real- my- my- part of my mission, part of why I wrote How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci, he was one of my childhood heroes. My grandmother's an Italian painter, and she told me about him, and when I was a kid, you know, Superman was my other hero. But I grew up, I found out, oh, he was only a comic book character, but Leonardo was real. And part of why he fascinates us now, part of why he's on a PBS special, part of why there was The Da Vinci Code, part of why his painting sold a few years ago for $450 million, uh, uh, the most any work of art has ever- has ever sold for.
- CWChris Williamson
Which piece was it?
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, uh, it was the, uh, Salvator Mundi.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, uh, uh, uh, the Savior of the World. It's an amazing front-on, uh, portrait of Christ holding, uh, the globe of the world in the palm of his hand. Just exquisite. I actually saw it. It, it was found, it was authenticated by Professor Martin Kemp, who's probably the go-to academic world expert on Leonardo. Uh, uh, and then it was sold at auction for $450 million, and it's disappeared, and people are trying to figure out where it is. But the- the- the point is, he's in the news. We're talking about him, and here's the real answer to your question. Here's what I really wish people knew. 'Cause he'll endlessly fascinate us with his art, with his science, with his invention, but what I want people to know is that he left instructions in his notebooks on how you can think more like him, on how you can use your potential, and that simple sort of naive childlike question I asked many, many years ago was, "What's he trying to teach us?" And he's really trying to teach us how we can think more creatively, how we can use all of our power and potentiality. So, that's what I really want people to know.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, so you've spent this time deconstructing, reading an awful lot of his work. How much of his work and notebooks and stuff were retained? Is the... more lost than was kept? Have we got any idea?
- MGMichael Gelb
More, more lost than kept. More lost, 20,000... At best, scholarly estimate, about 20,000 written. Uh, uh, people seem to, uh, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Pages?
- MGMichael Gelb
... change the numbers between 6 and 7,000 pages, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. Oh, so I mean, and 6 or 7,000 survived?
- MGMichael Gelb
Exact- are exist, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, so even though, even though, uh, a lot lost, still quite a lot to get through.
- MGMichael Gelb
Well, I read it all (laughs) way back, you know, when I was doing the research in this from... I really focused in, uh, on, in on this from 1994 to when the book came out in 1998, and I was absolutely immersed. I literally... I went to the place he was born, I went to the place he died, I walked in his footsteps, I went to every museum I could, I studied the live notebooks as well as reading the Richter, uh, translations of the notebooks, I interviewed the Leonardo scholars, I contemplated his paintings, I started dreaming about him, and it was from those dreams that the Da Vinci principles emerged.
- 15:57 – 23:10
A Normal Day for Da Vinci
- MGMichael Gelb
- CWChris Williamson
What was a typical day like for him? Do you know what a- a normal daily routine was?
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs) Well, there, there's a lot of speculation about that. I would say it probably differed when he was in, uh, uh, different places, but we know he advocates the importance of working with great intensity and then taking a break. Uh, uh, so whatever, wherever he was, whatever he was doing, whether he was in his studio or, uh, interacting with- with patrons, we know that one of the things he teaches us and advocates, which has been borne out by contemporary research into the... optimizing the psychology of memory and high performance and so on and so forth, is oscillation, work with great intensity. Actually, there's a great story when he was, when he was working on the, (laughs) on the, uh, The Last Supper. He would be up there, uh, on the wall of the, uh, refectory of the, uh, Church of Santa Maria delle Grazie, working for hours and hours at a time with total intensity, but then he would just disappear, sometimes for a few days. Well, the prior of the Church of Santa Maria delle Grazie would get very upset. He'd say, "Where's this Leonardo guy?" 'Cause he didn't know this was an all-time genius. You know, as far as he's concerned, this is just another contractor. I got Vito the plumber and, you know, Luigi the carpenter, Leo the painter.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
So, Leonardo comes back and- and the prior gives him a hard time. Leonardo says... he dismisses him. So the prior complains to the duke, and the duke summons Leonardo and asks him to explain himself, and Leonardo says one of the great lines of all time. He says, "Men of genius sometimes work best when they work least." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, uh, 'cause he knows, he understands intuitively, and so many of the great, great geniuses understand intuitively something that we can all practice ourself, which is work with your greatest intensity and then quit while you're ahead, go for a walk in nature, and let it all go.... be open, be receptive, go for a walk, come back, write it in your notebook. So in a typical day, I know he worked with great intensity, then went for a walk in nature, wrote in his notebook what he observed or the ideas that came to him-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
... and his notes were very messy and had lots of creative doodles.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, um, I have so many thoughts about this. First one being, I wonder how rare it is for people to be repaid, uh, financially, uh, existentially for the quality of their thoughts. You know, most people have what are commonly referred to as bullshit jobs, right?
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They buil- they have bullshit jobs.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, it's- it's, you know, um, something that may- maybe they're even, like, kind of fired up by it, but it's not necessarily the most creatively demanding job in the world. Or maybe it is, but it's creatively demanding some of the time, not most of the time.
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, that would have been, you know, you're hoeing the fields, you- you're a serf in, you know, uh, 1250 or something, uh, in Europe. Like, it's the same. It's all the same. So most people, I think, don't generate their primary source of value from the quality of their thoughts. Uh, but the goal, I think, that most people are trying to get to is to be repaid for the quality of their thoughts. So what you have in da Vinci is somebody who is, I think, optimizing for a- a position that many people want to get into, not necessarily everybody is into, um, but certainly if you get to the stage where you're trying to be creative, you're trying to come up with new ideas, you are paid for the quality of your thoughts, that on and off thing is really interesting. And then, contemporarily when you think about, well, the modern world has kind of robbed us of the ability to be off a lot of the time, because even when you're walking, the phone's in your pocket, you're listening to a podcast, you know, it- the podcast is at two and a half times speed, you are th- you've got people coming past you, there's so much stimulus, et cetera, et cetera. The opportunity to have a full switch off is- is super interesting and- and lacking, I think. And, uh, I'm- I think I'm right in saying the ancient Greek word for work was not at leisure, uh, so work was an aberration and leisure was the set point.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Whereas now, people kind of have this, I don't know, work purgatory thing, where it's- just infuses... France just released this new, uh, bylaw that said that employers can't contact employees after 5:00 PM at night, uh, or on weekends in an attempt to kind of create a hard stop, uh, around this. But yeah, just that, um, quality of your thoughts, it's just kind of a specific use case, but one that a lot of people, I think, aspire to and would like to get more of. And then on the other side, the sort of mismatch that we have with the modern world, uh, compared with maybe what would be better for, uh, flourishing.
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, amen. Well, my whole career, somehow I've pulled off this ability (laughs) to just get paid for (laughs) being playful and creative and having fun and helping corporate people. I figured that out, that help the people who have money be more creative (laughs) and then you get money.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Teaching-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... people who have money to make money is playing on easy mode. People-
- MGMichael Gelb
Right. And-
- CWChris Williamson
Teaching people who don't have money to not make money is playing on hard mode, yeah.
- MGMichael Gelb
Well, I try to help people who- who have money, make lots of money, to be more creative so that they can help people who don't have money and don't have opportunity have more opportunity and more money. That's my lifelong passion, conscious capitalism, uh, I co-authored a book called The Healing Organization, uh, with Raj Sisodia, you must know all this down in Austin, uh, that's the headquarters, John Mackey and so on. Uh, uh, uh, so I've always- I- I realized early on that, uh, just like Leonardo did, is, uh, that's where the power and the money is. So if we can get business to think more creatively, more compassionately, raise the consciousness of business leaders, then that's a way to contribute to making a better world. So that's... I- I moved, I lived, I tel- I was telling you before we started that I lived in England for seven years. I moved to Washington DC in 1982 with this wildly idealistic notion that I would teach government how to think creatively and that would help save the world. Well, I was quickly disabused of that notion. (laughs) But fortunately, business people were interested, and I was engaged early on by some visionary humanistic business leaders, and it was from them I learned about the ins and outs of business, and that's what I still do.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay,
- 23:10 – 29:48
Developing Genuine Curiosity
- CWChris Williamson
seven principles to think like da Vinci. What's the first one?
- MGMichael Gelb
Well, the first one is one that you embody so beautifully in your- in your show, in your podcast, and I think it's- it's why people like it. Uh, it's curiosita, it's genuine curiosity, it's a childlike focused passionate desire to know, and you ask one question and, you know, L- Leonard would- would never take yes for an answer. (laughs) What about the next ques... And anybody who has kids know they'll just keep asking you questions and you could get to the essence of what anybody knows in four or five questions. Einstein would be like, "Okay, we don't know that" after five questions. So that's our birthright. Our birthright is curio- curiosity. Who are the most imaginative people? Little children. Who's got the most energy? Little kids. But then, you know, you go to school, they focus on getting the right answer instead of asking-... powerful questions. You go to college or university, it's way worse. You have to regurgitate back what the professor said. Then you go into the workplace, and they're not necessarily rewarding creative thinking or challenging questions. It's figure out what the boss wants, just like you figured out what the professor wants, feed it back to th- to them. And the media and advertising doesn't help with any of that. So having a renaissance, a rebirth of your own curiosità. Uh, and this is what I try to guide people to do with all the practices. You know, one of the exercises in the book that has had the most legs, uh, over the decades, I still get mail from people around the world. Uh, there's an exercise in the book where I have you, in one sitting, write out 100 questions. Don't lift your pen off the paper. Write 100 questions. You can choose a theme if you want to. It doesn't really matter, 'cause what's going to happen is the first 20 or 30 questions will just be your regular quotidian mind. So, you know, "What's the meaning of life?" Blah, blah, blah. But you don't, you're not really into it yet. The middle level of questions, 30, 40, 50, you'll be like, "Why the hell am I doing this exercise? My wrists hurt. Why does my wrists hurt so much?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
"Why did I pick up that stupid book anyway?" (laughs) Right? 70, 80, 90, 100. A lot of people do 120, 150. You get into new territory, and you shift into... It's, it's a way to break out of the habitual mind. Then I have you go back through them and highlight the 10 questions that have the most power, that really draw you in the most. Then think of those questions before you go to sleep. Keep your notebook by your bed, 'cause you're going to wake up with insights and a-has that, in many cases, will change your life. So there are practices. It's not just, "Yeah, be curious." Okay, cool.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
There's practices and methodologies and, and disciplines. And that's one of the most powerful, which is why I'm excited to share it with you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I l- I mean, you know, I'm, I'm so fortunate that I have the opportunity to do that, 100 questions a day, three or four times a week for now, you know, six, n- nearly seven years. Um, my friends may disagree when we sit down for dinner, and they just want to chill out, but, uh, whatever.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, (laughs) uh, I had to drive. Uh, we went to the Mike Tyson fight. We drove back and forth from the Mike Tyson fight in Dallas, Dallas to Austin, so three and a half hours-ish, 200 miles. And, uh, the fight was, frankly, shit. But the, uh, trip back and forth between me and my old housemate, Zach, was just... It's, like, my favorite thing to do. I'm locked... I'm going somewhere, so it's not purposeless, right? Uh, I'm locked in a box, and we went everywhere. Every single question that we could ask. We're listening to music. He's an amazing musician. I'm like, "Y- so why... What's syncopation? Explain syncopation to me. And why is this thing..." and blah, blah, blah. And then he gets to ask. Dude, I, I, I don't know. I, it g- I understand that not everyone necessarily is... has that innate drive, but it kind of blows my mind that that's not what everybody's trying to do all the time. Because it's just... It's the most, it's the most fun thing. To me, it's the most fun thing.
- MGMichael Gelb
A- And, right, and the coolest thing is it fires your imagination, doesn't it? And probably, if, and when people can put up with you, like, if they can put up with me. We're (laughs) I'm very s- I've been doing this even longer than you have.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
Not on a podcast, but asking people questions. Uh, uh, uh, it fires the imagination, and it raises your energy. So remember, we said little kids, wild imagination, the most energy, because they have the strongest curiosità.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
So if you want more energy, you want to fire your imagination. At any time in your life, you can have a personal renaissance by empowering the questioning process.
- CWChris Williamson
It feels like... What curiosity feels like to me, it feels like being pulled, not pushing.
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So much of life, I think you're, you're forcing yourself into it. You're finding a wedge, and you're pushing yourself into this space. Curiosity is the opposite. It's, it's you sort of posit a vacuum, and the vacuum sucks you forward. And, uh, I really like that. I really, uh, uh, I very much do. You've got the 100 questions. I like that. Is there anything else tactically to consistently sort of keep this ticking-
- MGMichael Gelb
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... over, o- across time?
- MGMichael Gelb
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
People can't do the 100 questions every day.
- MGMichael Gelb
Journalist questions. Who, what, why, where, when, and how. Just there, there's a handy toolkit. Very simple. Ask a co- y- "Well, who's in- who's involved? Who's involved in thi- in this particular project and issue? Uh, uh, how did it happen? Uh, uh, where, where did it take place? When did it start? When will it be brought to completion? Uh, and why is it happening?" That's, that'll keep you busy on almost any issue for as long as you can stay up.
- 29:48 – 42:42
Turning Cynics to Enthusiasts
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
All right, cool. That's the first one. Second?
- MGMichael Gelb
The second one, dimostrazione. Dimostrazione. It means demonstration. It's a word that Leonardo actually used in his notebooks. And he was saying demonstrate things through your own experience. Don't just accept something because a person in authority says it or 'cause it's written in a book. So it fits with, it's, you can see how it naturally, as organically from curiosità. Then-... okay, think it through really critically. So this is- this is- this is a yin yang harmony we're already being asked to do. Be wildly open, really playful, childlike, innocent in your questioning. Then be really skeptical and really tough and really critical as you drive forward with the responses to those questions, so that usually you have people who are naive and open and play- you know, or people who are just very critical-
- CWChris Williamson
Cynical.
- MGMichael Gelb
... even cynical and- You know, to- a cynic is a, is a brokenhearted idealist. I try to take c- I've got, I've had lots of cynics in my class over the years, as you can imagine, working with construction managers and engineers and finance people and even lawyers. (laughs) So I try to get the cynics to become skeptics and the skeptics to become enthusiasts, and then the super enthusiasts, I get them to be more skeptical. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Yeah.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
As with mo- as with most things, man, it's the golden mean.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And uh, you know, I- I- I really think there's something to sort of playing with the extremes as opposed to finding a balance in the middle, and uh, this is just where I'm at at the moment. I think for a long time I tried to, you know, like, I'm going to stay in shape mostly, but like a little bit of the time, I'm going to let it off. I'm going to, you know, be skeptical quite a bit and try to be more disagreeable, but I'm also going to have the open, warmhearted thing going on. And that's, I guess, kind of optimal for relational stuff. You don't want to be bipolar in all of the things that you do. Um, but when it comes to like more strategic or structural stuff, how you build your life together, I think it's much easier to just go all in in one direction and then periodize what you do. So to move from the openhearted curiosity thing to I'm going to scrutinize incredibly heavily the stuff that I've learned, and then I go back. Because trying to do both at the same time, uh, is like trying to creatively write whilst you proofread and-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah, you can't- you can't do them at the same time. It's a oscilla- it is- it's a rhythmic pulsation. It's like breathing. You inhale, you exhale. It's day and night, and it's- but it's understanding the harmony of those modes, just like- so you inhale and you get the fullness of that in breath, and then there's that exquisite moment, it's the solstice of your breath. It just becomes the exhale, just we're coming up to December 21st. That's- And I love that- I just love that exquisite moment, it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
It's the greatest potentiality of the hottest day of summer-
- CWChris Williamson
It's the top of the-
- MGMichael Gelb
... is right there.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the top of the roller coaster.
- MGMichael Gelb
It's the top of the roller coaster, and then when you're at the bottom, and that's called life. So recognizing tha- that's why in the yin and yang symbol there's that little bit of the light in the dark bit and a little bit of the dark-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
... in the- in the light bit.
- CWChris Williamson
I was reading Seveneves, this great book by Neal Stephenson, and um, in it they have to try and repurpose the International Space Station to become a colony for h- uh, all of human civilization in like two years. Uh, and then they get up there, but you end up learning... Neal Stephenson's a beast. You end up learning a ton about orbital dynamics when you're up there-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and uh, it's really cool. And um, when you think, uh, just trying to intersect uh, two things flat, like a car hitting another car, quite a lot of stuff has to happen in order for that collision to occur, but that's only on two dimensions. When you then not only put it into three dimensions but put those three dimensions moving around a spherical object, it is so interesting. So they're talking about, again, the orbital dynamics and they use the- the terms zenith and apogee, uh-
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm-hmm. There you go.
- CWChris Williamson
... to sort of refer and uh-
- MGMichael Gelb
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... it makes me think about the exact same but now in a- a- another dimension.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs) I'm with you, man. That's cool. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, what would you say to the recovering cynics, uh, who want to kind of let go of some of their worldly scrutiny and- and uh, sort of, uh, dark day thinking?
- MGMichael Gelb
How do you want to feel? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 42:42 – 50:13
Our Links to Ancient Wisdom
- CWChris Williamson
uh, idea of us all being connected, and I guess if people are deep into meditation, they'll know about sort of permanent, non-abiding, non-dual awareness, et cetera, et cetera, um, a more, uh, rational version of that, which I love, uh, and I've just checked ChatGPT to make sure that it's, it's still correct. Uh, so I asked the question, "Do we all breathe in particles of Julius Caesar's last breath?"
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs) Great, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's likely that we all breathe in-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... particles from Julius Caesar's last breath because of molecular diffusion and the fact that every breath contains 10 to the 22 molecules. While the fraction of Caesar's breath in any given inhalation is minuscule, the sheer number of molecules and the passage of time make it statistically probable that every breath we take contains some of those ancient molecules. How fucking cool is that?
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs) See, but that's, that's the s- such a wonderful element of the amazing time we live in, whereas we c- we can take these concepts of ancient wisdom from the Vedas, from your, uh, uh, Advaita Vedanta, uh, uh, uh, non-dual truth and things that yogis went off for 40, 50 years to get an aha, and we can actually back it up with, with physics.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
And that, that's, you know, it's like when I tell my, my business clients that, uh, you know, we now know, we have the data that shows that if you treat all your stakeholders with care and respect and look after their welfare, over time, you'll make more money. We have the data, so why would you think of ripping people off or exploiting the worker or your client? 'Cause you're gonna, you're gonna suffer. You're not gonna feel good. Your conscience is gonna hurt you.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MGMichael Gelb
And you won't- and you will- you make less money.
- CWChris Williamson
The- I mean, uh, of all of those, of all of the things, for me, it's, I think the little ticker in the back of your brain that knows when you did the thing that you should've done, that gives you that sort of, as the kids would say, ick, or cringe, that sense of like, "Oh, fuck. Like, I shouldn't have done that."
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"And I know I shouldn't have done that." And, you know, adaptively, evolutionarily, what is it? It's you thinking if somebody in the tribe saw what you just did or what you just thought, you would, you would potentially lose status, or you would maybe even be kicked out or killed, you know, in the worst situations. But, like, functionally, what is that? Well, it's you being pointed toward a direction that's probably good for you over the long term. Uh, it's the same reason that, you know, we have this tension between pleasure, enjoyment, and long-term contentment and meaning. Like, it's a tension between the two, and a lot of the time, stuff that we do in the moment that gives us pleasure can be negative for us over the long term, and stuff that's positive for us over the long term is negative to our pleasure in the, in the current moment. And, um, I, I really think that much of the balance with this, like the first step, is just realizing this is a tension to be managed, not a problem to be solved. Like, there's no fucking equation that comes out the other end.
- MGMichael Gelb
It's, it's, uh, you know, I, I, I'm passionate about wine. I, I do, uh, uh, wine tasting, team building exercises for my clients over the years. I wrote a book called Wine Drinking for Inspired Thinking, and I, I gotta tell you, I've really mastered the art- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MGMichael Gelb
... of pleasure every day without negative consequences, and one of the great, uh, philosophers of wine that I read said, "The art of enjoying wine is to have the greatest possible present glad- gladness, without any future misery." So I'm enjoying a beautiful wine, and it's so good, and I'd like to have another glass, but I just tune into my system, and I know, "I'll have a headache. I won't feel so good. I won't be able to function at the level." Just say, "Thanks." Breathe in and savor the aromas and the afterglow of a, of a fine wine, and let that be just enough, 'cause then you get to have some more t- the next, the next night, or whatever it is, dark chocolate.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
Uh, uh, I mean, I'm, I really, (laughs) I'm really focused on all the best things in life and how to enjoy them sustainably, uh, uh, to make, to put more dolce in my vita and the vita of my friends and clients, more joie in their vive, so that every hour, we'll be happier. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it cool, you know, like, so much of this, the- there's a couple of the things that you've mentioned, uh, um, wine, maybe you want a bit more, but there's also a bit of you that doesn't want a bit more. Like, wine's more full, but not that much more more full. Dark chocolate's a better example of something where I have never- uh, has anybody ever gorged themselves on dark chocolate? I don't think so. It's like y- after a while, it's sort of been th- th-
- MGMichael Gelb
It's so good too-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- MGMichael Gelb
... that you're fulfilled.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. So I think, uh, what you're- there's two ways to sort of look at this, uh, temperance, maybe would say some sort of self-control.
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, uh, one is develop self-control, right, uh, i- is to actually have the ability to do the willpower thing, so that would be you being able to press the accelerator harder, right, of willpower.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But the other one is taking your foot off the brake, and that would be choosing environments, friends, routines, lifestyles, food choices. Like, the reason that everybody loses weight most of the time when they switch to something like meat and fruit, right, or carnivore, is that there's only so much ground beef you can eat before you're like, "I'm-... fucking sick of this. Whereas the taste design of going to McDonald's is significantly more palatable, so you're going to eat more. Anyway, okay, so...
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah. But what you, what you said, let's just, uh, uh, tie that up too, because, uh, uh, what I find is many people ha- have internalized the Puritan ethic. You got to remember-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
... the Puritans left England 'cause th- they were having too much fun in England, and they wanted to be more austere, so they came here, and they dressed in those funky b- black and white costumes (laughs) that looked very tight and uncomfortable. And pleasure and, and joy of living wasn't their thing. So a lot of people feel that they must deny themselves, that they don't deserve goodness and the bounty of life. Uh, uh, other people overdo it and are, get addicted. And so whi- whichever pole you're on, if you're on this pole of overindulgence, you need to, to tighten up and, and get more discipline and learn, you know, the power of a positive no. Uh, uh, and if you're one of these folks over here who never really thought that this was possible or didn't know all the wonderful things the world has to offer you and wants to learn about the art of enjoyment, well there's a whole beautiful world awaiting you.
- 50:13 – 55:54
Sharpen Your Senses
- CWChris Williamson
critical thinking. Next.
- MGMichael Gelb
Sensazione. Sensazione. Sharpen your senses. Sharpen your senses. So, Leonardo wrote that the five senses are the ministers of the soul. He disciplined his senses. He trained his senses like an Olympic athlete would train their body for competition. But do you know what he wrote 500 years ago, 550 years ago in Tuscany? Leonardo wrote, "The average person looks without seeing, eats without tasting, breathes in without awareness of aroma or fragrance, uh, uh, talks without thinking." Uh, uh, basically doesn't pay attention to the beauty that's all around them. So he advocates in the principle of sensazi- se- sensazione, advocates consciously sharpening your sensory awareness. And this becomes obviously more important as you get older. And what, what's the best, most beautiful way to do it is to appreciate nature and appreciate beauty. Go for a walk and have a theme of, "What do I see? What are the colors I see today? Let's look at the different shades of green and make that the theme of my walk today." Or, "My walk today, my theme will be perspective, or light and shadow." Or, "What sounds do I hear?" Just, you know, just listening to the sound of birdsong in a 20-minute walk significantly raises your immune system and your creative thinking. Uh, uh, taste the best the world has to off- uh, has to offer and pay attention. And, oh, here's a big secret too. Instead of one dark chocolate, do a comparative tasting. Try, uh, you know, an 80% cacao against, uh, 85%, uh, or one from Madagascar against one from Venezuela, 'cause your brain loves a theme. It loves to compare and contrast. And you'll notice sensory nuances in the chocolate that you, might have escaped you had you not compared. Then you can do the same thing with, uh, Manet and Monet or, uh, uh, uh, different, uh, pieces by Bach or early Mozart, later Mozart or Mozart, uh, uh, 40th symphony conducted by von Karajan versus Bernstein. It's amazing, same music, it could even be the same orchestra, different conductor, you hear stuff that you never would have heard otherwise. So... And it's fun. And then you do this with other people, and you say, "Well, what did you hear?" And here's the, here's the deal to get, to make this most fun is no wrong answers. This is not, you know, music criticism or, uh, uh, uh, food criticism. This is sensazione enjoyment. What do... 'Cause there's no wrong answer to the question, "What do you experience?" And what's so cool is people will... I do this with my corporate people. They'll, they don't think they know about wine. They put their nose in the glass. People make jokes, "Oh, that smells like grapes, ahaha." Uh, uh, but then, (laughs) you know, they get over their awkwardness and they get into it, and somebody says something like, uh, uh, uh, "I don't know, it, it kind of reminds me of, uh, biting into a really ripe, uh, uh, plum, uh, uh, while leaning back on a haystack on a really hot day." And somebody else goes, "Oh my God, that's just... Let me taste that, uh, uh, wine again, see if I can get that plum and that haystack."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
And all of a sudden you're not just learning about the wine. You're learning about the person, and you're connecting with the poetic soul and the poetic consciousness, the, uh, the non-linear, uh, way of being in the world, which is art, joy, uh, uh, uh, uh, beauty. So if we want more of that in our lives, we sharpen our senses. Not to mention the fact that, look, uh, uh, my patrons are businesses.So, they need to be sharper than their competition. That means they're better at seeing what's going on. They're reading the body language of the person in the meeting. They are listening to the voice tone and noticing if there's a disconnect between the words that the person's saying, the body language, and the voice tonality. And then they'll use their curiosita to ask some more challenging questions so that they can fire up their, uh, demonstrazione and get to the bottom of the situation. So, the opposite of being sharp is being dull, and it's a sensory term.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's this, again, another one of those balances. I, I like the idea of the sharpness, but there's also this sort of element of savoring, uh, which seems, uh, patience kind of. I'm gonna wait and see what's there. Or I'm gonna take another sip, or I'm gonna take another moment before speaking or describing or whatever.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah, I've been, I've been, uh, that's, uh, something I've been aiming to cultivate for many years.
- CWChris Williamson
As a wine, as a, as a wine drinker-
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I imagine that the savoring thing is, is particularly important.
- 55:54 – 1:02:06
Embrace the Unknown
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Sharpen the senses.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Sharpen the senses. What's next?
- MGMichael Gelb
Okay. The next is sfumato. Sfumato. So, sfumato is a term coined by art critics to refer to the hazy, mysterious quality in Leonardo da Vinci's paintings. And what it refers to is maybe the most distinguishing characteristic of highly creative people, which is our ability to embrace the unknown. So one of Leon... Everybody rushes to see the Mona Lisa, and rightfully so, 'cause she's the most renowned, famous work of art in human history, the most recognized symbol or icon or image on the planet. But on your way in to see her, a lot of people walk right by the Saint John. And the Saint John, in the book, is actually the symbol of sfumato, because he's got his hand on his heart, he's pointing up to heaven, he's got a funky (laughs) head tilt and, and smile, as though he's saying, "When things are really tricky and uncertain, use your emotional intelligence, consider what your higher principles are, and keep your sense of humor." (laughs) So, uh, uh, Leonardo pioneered this technique, uh, which they call sfumato, where why is the Mona Lisa considered to be so amazing? Well, one reason is she's so mysterious, because he, he blurs the lines around her eyes, around her smi- the famous smile. He blurs from her figure to the atmosphere behind her. So things seem to kind of meld into other things, and she seems to follow you around the room, if you've ever had the opportunity to actually move around that room when it's not that crowded, which fortunately, I, I have actually had. Uh, uh, so what... Here, try this. We can h- everybody can try this altogether. We do this right now. So just imitate Mona's smile. Get in the position. Everybody knows it. And do your best Mona smile imitation, and then notice how it makes you feel. That's good, man. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
All right. I could-
- MGMichael Gelb
That's ex-
- CWChris Williamson
... have been Mona Lisa
- NANarrator
One last time.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah, whoa. (laughs) Right? So, so, uh, I was doing this with a group of gifted children, uh, uh, ages eight to 11 in Rappahannock County, Virginia, and kids are so great. You know, you ask them to do something like this, they are so earnest. They go... They're really into it. And one of the kids says, "She's got a secret." And the other kid says, "Yeah, she knows everything has a opposite." And then the kids start saying opposites like day and night, good and bad, boys and girls, life and death. I ask my average corporate group when we do this, they say, they say, "Well, I read in the Wall Street Journal that the famous smile was caused by a dental problem." (laughs) They kind of miss the point. Mona Lisa is the Western equivalent of the ancient Eastern symbol of yin and yang. She is the embodiment of the notion of the harmony of dark and light, of good and evil, of masculine and feminine, uh, of yin and yang. And that's just one of the reasons she's endlessly fascinating.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so interesting. I was, uh, I, I've watched a number of videos, YouTube videos explaining it. I think it's a YouTube channel called Great- Great Art Explained.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah. I- I- I'm on that channel. Uh, Great Books Explained, Great Art Explained.
- CWChris Williamson
Unbelievable.
- MGMichael Gelb
Both awesome, right? Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So good. Especially for me, right? Total Philistine, uh, no understanding of art or how it works. And then you have someone who, uh, b- has to be some sort of art scholar or whatever. Anyway, people should go and check out, uh, Great Art Explained. And, um, they do, uh, maybe an extended one, I think, perhaps on the Mona Lisa. And, um, yeah, there's w- what you were s- talking before about, uh, the particular, uh, style to bring light out. But y- wasn't that, that was because of the number of layers that he used? Like, this obscene number of, like, one layer, one layer, one layer.
- MGMichael Gelb
Super. So, gossamer thin layers of paint. Hundreds of them. So what that does is create this effect where the light seems to suffuse from behind the canvas, creating this haunting, engaging, mysterious effect. And, you know, the lesson for all of us is...... when you're going through a period of big change, of grave uncertainty, which we will all go through, uh, uh, sometimes over and over again. Can you maintain your emotional intelligence? Can you maintain your connection to your star, to your higher purpose or principle? Can you maintain your sense of humor? Uh, which I find to be perhaps... You know, the ha ha and the aha are first cousins. It's the same m- workings of the brain. It's shifting you out of... It's like improv. You know, improv, if we say, uh, uh, uh, if we have you, uh, you, you, you did that exercise, uh, uh, where you, you name something and then name it the thing of the next thing, and then name it something that it isn't.
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking love that idea.
- MGMichael Gelb
Right? It's-
- CWChris Williamson
I love that.
- MGMichael Gelb
I was, I was actually, I've been doing that. I saw that on your episode, and I've been doing that on my w- I was doing it today-
- CWChris Williamson
It's a game changer.
- MGMichael Gelb
... I'm going through my neighbor's house-
- CWChris Williamson
Such a game changer.
- MGMichael Gelb
... and I'm saying, "Tree," and I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MGMichael Gelb
... saying, "Tree," and I'm saying, "Mailbox."
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck! God dammit.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs) My neighbors already think I'm nuts as it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 1:02:06 – 1:11:00
Integrating Logic & Imagination
- CWChris Williamson
good. Okay, okay, so Sfumato, embracing ambiguity and the unknown.
- MGMichael Gelb
Un- Principle number five, Arte Scienza, Arte Scienza, integrate art and science, logic and imagination, what people used to refer to as left and right hemisphere thinking. Now we know it's actually more complex and not so easily distributed, but the metaphor still, uh, is relevant. Uh, there's convergent thinking, where we're focusing, analyzing, reducing, and there's divergent thinking, where we're going off and coming up with random associations. Uh, way back in the 1990s, I coined the term sinvergent thinking, the synergetic integration of convergent and divergent thinking. That's Arte Scienza. Leonar- why do we, why are we here talking about him? 'Cause he wasn't just an amazing genius scientist, he was also an amazing genius artist and inventor. So he integrated these modalities that we usually tend to think of as opposites, all in service of his quest for, for truth, beauty and goodness. And my old buddy, English, uh, uh, uh, genius guy named Tony Buzan originated mind mapping. I don't know if you've come across mind mapping. It's... Tony made it up, inspired by the notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci and Thomas Edison. And he taught it to me when I was writing my master's thesis in London, and it transformed my experience of writing. My master's thesis became my first book, and that's how be- I became an author. So it's a methodology for integrating art and science, Arte Scienza. It's a really simple, elegant, practical way to think like Leonardo. But my guidance for everybody is learn at first the old fashioned way with actual colored pens and big sheets of paper before you do it on your computer. It's great to do it on your computer. It's amazing the programs that have come out, a lot of free, great ones. But learn it the artisanal old fashioned way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
'Cause when you draw, uh, uh, uh, it activates circuitry in your brain. You want some serious neuroplasticity? Get the colored pens, make some mind maps, and you will be thinking like Leonardo da Vinci.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, a program for Mac, which is free, called MindNode.
- MGMichael Gelb
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, it's not quite... It, it's more tiered. So it's basically, uh, how would you say? Like, um, nested bullet points, but presented visually. And, uh, it's super easy to use, which is the most important thing for me. And I love MindNode, so I use MindNode. I haven't used it that much recently, to be honest, but I used it in the past when I was planning out talks and other bits and pieces. Uh, I think one of the... Certainly if I was to lay an issue or a pathology at the feet of modern society, it would certainly not be that there's too much art or imagination.
- MGMichael Gelb
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, you know, it's very, it's very sort of left brainy. It's very rational. It's, e- e- it's tied in with the cynicism thing. Uh, how can somebody that thinks, "This sounds great. I'd love to inhabit my sort of creative, imaginative, artistic, da Vinci energy more," what are some of the things that can help to sort of pull people out in that way?
- MGMichael Gelb
Well, re- really learning and practicing mind mapping is the go-to, most practical way to really do it, because then you can learn to make mind maps of your, uh, plan for the day. Uh, you could plan a dinner party. You can make a, a, a... The last exercise in the book is a mind map of all your life goals, dreams, visions, values, uh, your different areas of life. And then you get to look at them and see the gestalt of it all, while you also get more detail 'cause you put in key words. You print those key words so they're easy to read, and you draw images, uh, uh, or creative doodles that go with them so you're stimulating the imaginative part of your mind and the detailed focus analytical part of your mind simultaneously. So you get a huge amount of information in a, in a very small space.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Very-
- MGMichael Gelb
And it's fun! It's fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Okay, next up.
- MGMichael Gelb
Next, Corporalita. Corporalita, balance the body and the mind.So, we all know that Leonardo was an artistic genius. Many people know he was also a scientific genius, great inventive genius, but he was also physically gifted. He was renowned as the strongest man in Florence. He was a master equestrian, a fencer. History records that he also was a juggler, which I was thrilled to discover since I worked my way through graduate school as a professional juggler. He loved, uh, to walk. Uh, he'd walk through the countryside for miles and miles and miles with his, with his notebooks. And he gives advice in his notebooks to his students. Remember, I told you he actually tells you what to do. I just figured out what he was saying, translated into contemporary terms. One of the things he says, "Learn to preserve your own health." Today we, we might call that integrative medicine, uh, or functional med- Learn to preserve your own health. Take responsibility for your health and wellness. He says, "Avoid grievous moods and keep your mind cheerful." Well, today we call that psycho-neuro-immunology, right? Your attitude affects your immune system moment-to-moment. He says, "Eat a healthy, wholesome diet of the freshest foods that you can find." He says, "If possible, dine with friends." Uh, the Italians have a saying, Ɛa tavola non si invecchia. You dine with others, you don't grow old. He says, "Have a little red wine with dinner in moderation." He says, "Get moderate exercise every day, have plenty of fresh water, be in nature." What else do you need to know?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. So that is, uh, fitness, looking after the body, looking after the mind, but there's the, the elements of grace and poise.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What are those specifically? 'Cause that, I think, to me, is a very different sort of word.
- MGMichael Gelb
Yes. Uh, uh, uh, so Leonardo was renowned for his grace and poise in his own movement. He was so... The, the chroniclers of the time recorded that people would turn out just to watch him walk down the street, 'cause he moved with so much poise and grace. And part of why, especially when you go s- when you go see the drawings, I've seen them close up at the Ambrosiana in Milan, and in Windsor Castle, uh, and in a few other places with special exhibitions. Uh, uh, the grace of the lines that he creates, the drapery that he unfolds, uh, uh, uh, Saint Anne, uh, or, uh, uh, the Madonna, uh, uh, the curls of the hair in the Ginevra de' Benci, uh, which is in the, uh, uh, uh, National Gallery. You can go see it for free in Washington, D.C. Uh, uh, so they're all indicative of this sense of just having the right amount of energy in the right place at the right time, which is one of the secrets of life. And it's an element that's often missed in a lot of physical training. You know, people go to the gym, and they're trying to just push the most weight they can and they want to achieve the goal, but you, you see these people. They're contorting themselves. They lose their form. I see runners, walkers, everywhere doing more harm to themselves than, than good because they've lost poise and grace in their movement.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MGMichael Gelb
So, I trained originally in Alexand- uh, as an Alexander Technique teacher in London many years ago, which is a genius methodology for cultivating poise and grace in your everyday movement, and Leonardo is one of the supreme examples of that quality.
- 1:11:00 – 1:14:28
Everything Connects to Everything Else
- MGMichael Gelb
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, and what's the final one?
- MGMichael Gelb
Connessione. Connesione. Everything connects to everything else. Leonardo wrote that in his notebook. Everything connects to everything else. So, today we would call that systems thinking, looking at how things that you might not ordinarily think are related are actually related, like how Julius Caesar is in your (laughs) in your nose right now. (laughs) So, uh, uh, that ability to, to really see the big picture, to see how to s- to think things through in a, uh... How... What are the uni- potential unintended consequences, the negative uni- People call them side effects when it's a drug, but they're really effects. They're just effects.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MGMichael Gelb
So, what's the gestalt of this project we're doing? What's, of this product that we're launching? Uh, of, uh, uh, this plan I am making? How do I see... He's, he guides us. He asks us to do that. And what I... I guide people to try to do that with their own lives, is just, you know, what's your purpose? What are your values? What are your goals? And how do they all fit together? And what are you actually doing every day? And is what you're doing every day, what's out of alignment with what you say your purpose, values, and goals are, and how can you make little shifts? Li- Uh, I mean, I know you know this. Little shifts, uh, uh, uh, every day lead to really big shifts in a sh- a surprisingly short amount of time. But it helps to not just, "All right, I'm going to get fit," uh, uh, uh, uh, and you just focus. No, how do... Why are you getting fit?...uh, uh, uh, how are you doing it? When are you going to do it? Where are you going to do it? Uh, uh, that fits in with the questions we laid out earlier-
- CWChris Williamson
Mmm.
- MGMichael Gelb
...and asking those questions about every aspect of your life. And then you can take these and put them in one mind map and make symbols for each one and some key words, put that on your desk. I have mine right over there. I keep redoing it. I've been doing this for (laughs) a really long time, uh, uh, uh, but it helps us stay on track to that star that Leonardo talked about. And believe me, it comes in handy when you have to navigate through storms.
- CWChris Williamson
Mmm. Yeah. Uh, intentionality, uh, intentionalism is a word that, that me and a lot of my friends are pretty addicted to. Like, doing the thing that you mean to do. Right?
- MGMichael Gelb
Well, that's a positive addiction. Uh, uh, uh, I'm, I'm... Yeah, 'cause the default setting is not, is programming, is conditioning, is reactivity, is unconsciousness, is somebody else's intention that was set to manipulate you and control your life. So set your intention, and set it in a systems way, and make images that go with it so you're not just doing it linearly, but you're also doing it with your imagination, and it's, plus it's more fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Michael Gelb,
- 1:14:28 – 1:15:21
Where to Find Michael
- CWChris Williamson
ladies and gentlemen. Michael, awesome. Uh, th- there's this new Leonardo da Vinci, uh, documentary that's coming out. I think it'll be out actually once this episode is done. So I'm sure a lot of people are wanting, will be wanting to learn more. So I, I, I really appreciate your work and the, uh, many trips and pages that you had to go through in order to be able to glean these insights. Where should people go if they want to keep up to date with the stuff you do?
- MGMichael Gelb
Thank you. Uh, michaelgelb.com. That's G-E-L-B, michaelgelb.com. And when they go to michael del- gelb.com and they sign up for our free newsletter, we send them a 14-page handout on how to do mind mapping for free. So michaelgelb.com is the place to go. Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah. Appreciate you, Michael.
- MGMichael Gelb
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, there is something else you will absolutely love right here. Go on, give it a tap.
Episode duration: 1:15:21
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode B2bHy6o7i1A
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome