How To Think Politically | Graeme Garrard | Modern Wisdom Podcast 107

1. 0:00 – 1:17

   Introduction

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Has it always been that your political leaning has then been taken as the foundation upon which the rest of your person is built?

   2. GGGraeme Garrard0:08

      That, that has been more the norm in, in history, I think-

   3. CWChris Williamson0:12

      Okay.

   4. GGGraeme Garrard0:13

      ... tha- than what we've been used to until recently-

   5. CWChris Williamson0:15

      Mm-hmm.

   6. GGGraeme Garrard0:15

      ... which, which is more of an aberration.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:18

      (laughs)

   8. GGGraeme Garrard0:18

      I thi- I think, I mean, as sad as it is to say, I think that what, what you're referring to now, which is becoming more dominant, is, uh, uh, something of a return to (laughs) to the normal in history, where, um, uh, people have been less tolerant, perhaps, um, of differences of opinion, where people's political views have been more closely linked to fundamental things like religion, identity, and that sort of thing. I think if you look at history, you'll find that that's more the norm and that we've sort of gotten used to, in recent history, that not being the case. But I think we're going back to that to some degree, and, um, that's maybe what's causing the, the temperature to go up in political debate and the, um, reluctant, increasing reluctance in some quarters to tolerate differences of opinion.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:15

      (wind blowing)

2. 1:17 – 4:57

   What is politics

   1. CWChris Williamson1:17

      I'm joined by Graham Garrard, and we're gonna learn how to think politically today, right? That's correct?

   2. GGGraeme Garrard1:23

      Yes, indeed. Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:24

      (laughs) Welcome to the show. How are you today?

   4. GGGraeme Garrard1:25

      Thank you very much. Yes, uh, glad to be here.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:27

      Yeah. It's gonna be interesting. We've, uh, been delving into politics and history a little bit recently on the show, so the listeners should be, uh, in the mood for it, at least appetites that have been whet. So, uh, uh, to begin the discussion in its purest form, what is politics and why do we need it?

   6. GGGraeme Garrard1:46

      (smacks lips) Well, politics is a way of managing human societies, um, (smacks lips) that, uh, uses, um, arguments, debate, um, (smacks lips) rhetoric, persuasion, um, but doesn't resort to use of force. Um, it's uniquely a human thing because we have language. Um, when, uh, when shooting breaks out, uh, then politics ends, and you have war. (laughs) Um, not everyone accepts that view, though there are lots of different conceptions of what politics is, but really generally, um, that's what it is. Um, some of your viewers may be familiar with a quotation that's often used, um, by a theorist of war, a German theorist of war named Clausewitz, who said that, um, (smacks lips) uh, "War is just, uh, politics by other means." So, that's a view of politics that I'm rejecting.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:42

      (laughs)

   8. GGGraeme Garrard2:43

      Um, my view is that when, uh, when, uh, war begins, politics ends. It's not always clear where the boundary is between the two, but, um, that's a view of politics that I have. Um, so politics is obviously important if you want to resolve differences, um, in a way that doesn't resort to force. So, um, all human societies involve some element of agreement and som- some element of disagreement. Um, if you didn't agree on anything, you wouldn't have a political community at all to start with, right? Um, but if you agreed on everything, you wouldn't need politics. So politics lies somewhere between those two extremes. Um, people agree and disagree, and so politics is really about how you manage those disagreements. Um, so they, they takes all kinds of different forms. So the one we're most familiar with is, is democracy, uh, although even that takes different forms. Um, but there are other forms of politics that aren't democratic. Indeed, um, most of human history, um, has been, uh, characterized by forms of politics that are not democratic. In fact, um, the, the greatest democracy of them all perhaps was ancient Athens, and then for almost 2,500 years, there really wasn't any democracy to speak of. Um, then it was reborn in, uh, sort of 18th century, 19th century, and now it's the dominant form in m- large parts of the world. Um, (clears throat) but, uh, you know, there are other forms. So in the particular form of democracy that we know best in the West, in the modern West, um, you know, we have institutions that we use to manage society, uh, to, um, allow us to cooperate, to pursue our common ends, but also allow us to manage conflict and difference when we disagree so that we're not killing each other.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:35

      (laughs)

   10. GGGraeme Garrard4:36

       Um, (laughs) but, uh, um, you know, there are other forms as well. So, um, you know, there's, uh, authoritarian forms of politics and, um, aristocratic forms, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but in the general terms, as I said, it's really about managing, uh, societies in a way that avoids, uh, actual violence.

3. 4:57 – 7:42

   Words and conflict

   1. GGGraeme Garrard4:57

   2. CWChris Williamson4:57

      I can't remember the first person who I heard said it, but, um, the comment that you made about you've got discussion and you've got conflict. You have words-

   3. GGGraeme Garrard5:07

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:07

      ... and you have fighting. Words and fists-

   5. GGGraeme Garrard5:09

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:09

      ... I suppose.

   7. GGGraeme Garrard5:10

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson5:10

      Those are really the only two ways that we can communicate with each other, right? It's either by talking about something, and then when that doesn't happen, it goes into, it goes into fighting about something. There's not really, there's not really many other mechanisms that we have to play with.

   9. GGGraeme Garrard5:24

      Uhm, not really. I mean, uh, they, they say that th- uh, it's a sort of continuum, and it's not always clear where one ends and the other begins. When, when does war really start? It's hard to say sometimes. Um, but notwithstanding that, I think you're right. I think that, uh, basically, um, it's one or the other. Um-

   10. CWChris Williamson5:44

       You can talk about it or you can fight about it. And that's-

   11. GGGraeme Garrard5:46

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson5:47

       ... that's kinda it. (laughs)

   13. GGGraeme Garrard5:47

       That's right. That's right.

   14. CWChris Williamson5:48

       Yeah.

   15. GGGraeme Garrard5:48

       And of course, there are lots of different ways to talk about it. Um, you can have a, a rational discussion, uh, an argument to try and persuade someone. But, you know, politics is also about other forms of, of language, um, rhetoric and, uh, um, manipulation, propaganda.

   16. CWChris Williamson6:04

       Mm-hmm.

   17. GGGraeme Garrard6:05

       Um, so those are ways of trying to-... get people to your- to take your view without actually, um, using force.

   18. CWChris Williamson6:13

       Yeah, it's not-

   19. GGGraeme Garrard6:14

       Um-

   20. CWChris Williamson6:14

       It's not as if words can't be weaponized, as well, right? It's just that it-

   21. GGGraeme Garrard6:17

       Quite-

   22. CWChris Williamson6:17

       ... doesn't involve punching someone in the face with them.

   23. GGGraeme Garrard6:19

       That's right.

   24. CWChris Williamson6:20

       (laughs)

   25. GGGraeme Garrard6:20

       Exactly. Exactly right. Um, yeah, it can be, it can be, you know, words can be highly manipulative and, uh, can involve elements of, of threat, as well, so that's why the, the boundary is as unclear. But, um, uh, to give maybe one example, let's say, um, in, in this country, in Britain, um, when, uh, in the 17th century, at the time of Thomas Hobbes, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes, um, uh, parliament was at odds with the king, uh, uh, King Charles I, and, uh, you know, they tr- attempted, uh, to, uh, um, uh, convince each other of their respective views and they used every manner of means, but in- eventually, uh, it didn't work and they resorted to, um, uh, civil war. And, uh, when, uh, when civil war begins, as it did, uh, i- in this country in the 1640s, then you know, you're, you're no longer really in politics. You're into a different realm-

   26. CWChris Williamson7:19

       Hmm.

   27. GGGraeme Garrard7:19

       ... where you're not trying to persuade anyone, you're trying to coerce them through, uh, through fighting. Um, but of course, um, that has to end at some point and politics has to resume. So, um, that, that would be an example.

   28. CWChris Williamson7:33

       Yeah.

   29. GGGraeme Garrard7:34

       There, there are examples all through history where politics breaks down and, uh, and war begins.

   30. CWChris Williamson7:38

       I get it.
4. 7:42 – 10:36

   Politics and power

   1. CWChris Williamson7:42

      Mm-hmm. So, how do politics and power relate to each other?

   2. GGGraeme Garrard7:46

      (inhales deeply) Right. Um, so power is, uh, an aspect of politics. It's a key aspect, a fundamental aspect. Um, power is, um, always present in politics. It's present in other realms, as well. It's not unique to politics. Um, all politics involves power, but not all power involves politics. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson8:11

      Hmm.

   4. GGGraeme Garrard8:11

      So, um, uh, politics is, uh, as I said, is a way of dealing with power, um, and so, uh, people have conflicting interests, they have conflicting values, they have conflicting, um, uh, ways of approaching things. And in a world of scarcity where not everyone can have everything they want, they have to resolve these differences. Um, and so this is what politics is essentially about. Um, so, uh, obviously to achieve things, you need power. And, um, n- as I say, where people disagree, then they wa- they, uh, they want access to power so they can achieve their own ends-

   5. CWChris Williamson8:54

      Hmm. Mm-hmm.

   6. GGGraeme Garrard8:55

      ... the ends, the ends they prefer. Um, so poli- a large part of politics is, is, you know, struggle over power, because power is the means to attain these ends.

   7. CWChris Williamson9:03

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   8. GGGraeme Garrard9:04

      But not e- not everyone agrees on the ends, and so they disagree about, you know, they fight over power.

   9. CWChris Williamson9:08

      Hmm.

   10. GGGraeme Garrard9:09

       Um, so that's, uh, that's a sort of key part of politics. But one of the points I make in this book, uh, my coauthor and I, is that that isn't the whole story, and indeed that's one of our main objectives in the book, is to show that politi- uh, power is key to politics, but it isn't everything. And there is a certain view of politics which we, um, reject, which says that it is just about power, and, um, there's another dimension that's missing from that view. You, you could call that view the Francis Urquhart view or the Frank Underwood view-

   11. CWChris Williamson9:44

       (laughs)

   12. GGGraeme Garrard9:45

       ... the, the House, uh, you know, the House of Cards view.

   13. CWChris Williamson9:47

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. GGGraeme Garrard9:47

       May- maybe the Machiavellian view, that-

   15. CWChris Williamson9:49

       Mm-hmm.

   16. GGGraeme Garrard9:50

       ... well, it's just a strum-

   17. CWChris Williamson9:51

       (clears throat)

   18. GGGraeme Garrard9:51

       It's just a struggle for power. Um, but, uh, we think that s- leaves out a huge dimension and so, um, uh, there is a way of talking about politics in addition to that, 'cause of course, that's all true, that's a, a c- a key part of an understanding of politics, but this other dimension is missing from that view. And that dimension has to do with concepts of justice, um, ideas, um, values, and that sort of thing. And, um, we think that a proper and complete view of politics has to include both. We refer to both power and to justice, to might and to right, and I think that's a, uh, a more complete view, and really, a more human view of politics.

5. 10:36 – 16:54

   Why is power a term

   1. GGGraeme Garrard10:36

   2. CWChris Williamson10:36

      Why do you think that power is a term which is thrown around so much at the moment in relation to politics?

   3. GGGraeme Garrard10:45

      (inhales deeply) Um, well, because I think when, um, people really diverge, and the degree, there's always divergence in politics, uh, between people, what they want, their values, their beliefs, but there are sometimes moments in history when, uh, the divergence becomes very acute, and, um, and, and, and fundamental differences open up. Um, and I think, uh, when that happens, uh, the, the intensity of the struggle for power may increase-

   4. CWChris Williamson11:16

      Hmm.

   5. GGGraeme Garrard11:16

      ... because, uh, there's so much at stake. Um, when there's a sort of lot of broad consensus, then, um, uh, there's still some amount of conflict, not, you know, n- uh, non-violent conflict, but when the stakes go up, when there's major disagreement about fundamentals, then I think the contest becomes more intense, passions are inflamed, and, um, people's, even people's sense of identity, um, becomes a, uh, a matter of debate, as we've seen with Brexit. I, I was hoping (laughs) I wouldn't mention Brexit this quickly, but, uh-

   6. CWChris Williamson11:49

      Too late. Too late.

   7. GGGraeme Garrard11:50

      ... yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:50

      You've already had to do it.

   9. GGGraeme Garrard11:52

      Yeah. Um, and so I think that may account for some of the reason that, uh... And also, there is a, um-There's a- there is, um, a view now that, uh, people don't trust politicians as much as they have in the past, and no one- no one's ever really trusted them that much, but-

   10. CWChris Williamson12:09

       (laughs)

   11. GGGraeme Garrard12:09

       ... I think levels- levels of trust have gone way down. This is borne out by- by, uh, surveys and things. And, um, I think in that case, people become more jaded and more cynical and tend to see, um, just the- the power aspects of politics. So that-

   12. CWChris Williamson12:25

       It's in- it's- it's interesting what you say about the- the identity thing. So I've had a number of, um, political commentators on recently, Andrew Doyle, who is the- the man behind-

   13. GGGraeme Garrard12:33

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson12:34

       ... the Titania McGrath Twitter account discuss-

   15. GGGraeme Garrard12:35

       Right.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:36

       ... discussing (laughs) that.

   17. GGGraeme Garrard12:37

       I know.

   18. CWChris Williamson12:37

       Um, who's actually banned. She's on her seven-day ban at the moment. Uh-

   19. GGGraeme Garrard12:40

       Right (laughs) .

   20. CWChris Williamson12:41

       ... I can't- I can't remember what for. Something else this time. Um, and yeah, the- the fact that you can no longer have a political ideology which isn't a comment on you as a person.

   21. GGGraeme Garrard12:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson12:50

       It's not that you have- um, you are a small business owner, therefore you're looking after your interests. It's, oh no, hang on, you voted, you lean right, therefore you are this sort of a person.

   23. GGGraeme Garrard13:02

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson13:02

       And has it always been that way? Has it always been that your political leaning has then been taken as the foundation upon which the rest of your person is built?

   25. GGGraeme Garrard13:14

       That- that has been more the norm in- in history, I think-

   26. CWChris Williamson13:18

       Okay.

   27. GGGraeme Garrard13:19

       ... tha- than what we've been used to until recently-

   28. CWChris Williamson13:21

       Mm-hmm.

   29. GGGraeme Garrard13:22

       ... which- which is more of an aberration.

   30. CWChris Williamson13:24

       (laughs)
6. 16:54 – 19:23

   Socrates and Alcibiades

   1. GGGraeme Garrard16:54

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:54

      It's bizarre, isn't it? That we've- we're currently framing a slightly more, uh, conflict-centered, uh, environment for politics up against a unrepresentatively placid, uh, period that we went through just before, but, uh, taken with a slightly broader-range view over the last 2,500 years or so, this is- it's just par for the course or more representative of what we've been used to. Uh, one of the, uh, things that you mentioned there, Socrates dying, the story that you put in the book, which I absolutely loved, was when he got convicted, um, by the court, he end- he was convicted and before s- before he was sentenced-

   3. GGGraeme Garrard17:34

      That's right.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:34

      ... he said, um, "Okay, that's- that's great. Thank you for convicting me. Now where's my reward?"

   5. GGGraeme Garrard17:40

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson17:40

      He considered himself-

   7. GGGraeme Garrard17:41

      That's right.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:41

      ... worthy of a reward, hadn't he? For the- the things he'd come up with.

   9. GGGraeme Garrard17:45

      That's right, yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:45

       And I just thought like-

   11. GGGraeme Garrard17:46

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson17:47

       I mean, it's such a ballsy move. Like a crazy- (laughs)

   13. GGGraeme Garrard17:50

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson17:50

       ... ballsy move. And also-

   15. GGGraeme Garrard17:51

       Yes.

   16. CWChris Williamson17:51

       ... did you say he's- he was grotesquely ugly as well?

   17. GGGraeme Garrard17:55

       Well, um, he was-

   18. CWChris Williamson17:56

       Or reports said he was grotesque.

   19. GGGraeme Garrard17:57

       Yeah, reputed-

   20. CWChris Williamson17:59

       Is that true? I've never heard that before.

   21. GGGraeme Garrard18:00

       Well, we have no real way of knowing other than, uh, through accounts, but he's reputed to have been, um, uh, um, outwardly ugly, but had a beautiful soul.

   22. CWChris Williamson18:10

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   23. GGGraeme Garrard18:10

       And, uh, and the contrast is, um, with his friend and lover, um, Alcibiades, um, who was a bad boy of the ancient world-

   24. CWChris Williamson18:20

       Mm-hmm.

   25. GGGraeme Garrard18:20

       ... and came to a sticky end as well. But he was famously, uh, uh, externally beautiful, uh, handsome, but inwardly had a corrupt soul.

   26. CWChris Williamson18:30

       Hmm.

   27. GGGraeme Garrard18:30

       And so the way that, um, the two have been presented as sort of contrasts in, in the writings of, say, Plato, um, then yeah, that- that's sort of, but whether that's just a kind of dramatization on Plato's part, hard to say, but yes, that's- that's how he's often been seen. Um, and it has a- a- it- he's making, Plato's making a point there and emphasizing this because he wants us to see that what really matters is the, is the beauty of your soul, the purity of your soul, the goodness of your soul, not outward things. It's one of Plato's major themes. It's a theme that comes out in a lot of ancient thought, like stoicism and things. Um, so he- he's, whether Socrates really was all that ugly or not-

   28. CWChris Williamson19:16

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   29. GGGraeme Garrard19:17

       ... um, it- it's, we'll never know, as I say, but it- it serves a point that Plato's trying to make.

7. 19:23 – 22:06

   Sophies Choice

   1. GGGraeme Garrard19:23

   2. CWChris Williamson19:23

      Hmm. What do you think, uh, what do you think Donald Trump would, uh, how- how would his speeches go if he started talking about the beauty of people's souls?

   3. GGGraeme Garrard19:31

      (laughs) Well, hard to imagine that kind of speech, if he was making it. Um, yeah, I- I mean, uh, um, I don't know that Trump would be able to reflect on that level, uh, about such things. Uh, that said, I don't think very many politicians would be. I think the point would probably be lost on most of them.

   4. CWChris Williamson19:51

      Hmm. So the big question, you've covered 30, 30-

   5. GGGraeme Garrard19:58

      Yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson19:58

      ... uh, individuals in this book.

   7. GGGraeme Garrard19:59

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson20:01

      You're out for dinner and you need to choose five of the individuals that you researched to be sat around the dinner table with you. Who are you going to choose and why?

   9. GGGraeme Garrard20:11

      Right. Okay. That's a tricky one. Um, that's a hard choice to make.

   10. CWChris Williamson20:14

       This is like choosing your favorite child, isn't it?

   11. GGGraeme Garrard20:16

       Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Sophie's choice. Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson20:18

       Yeah.

   13. GGGraeme Garrard20:18

       Sophie's, Sophie's choice for philosophers. Okay. Well, I mean, there would be, there'd be a personal aspect to it.

   14. CWChris Williamson20:25

       Mm-hmm.

   15. GGGraeme Garrard20:25

       One- one of them would have to be Jean-Jacques Rousseau, the Swiss philosopher of the 18th century, um, who lived during the French Enlightenment, um, and who, uh, inspired a lot of the French revolutionaries. They were, he was one of their biggest heroes, mainly because I've written about him and studied him so closely. So I have a personal interest in that. I, um, plus he was a very inherently, um, strange and interesting man.

   16. CWChris Williamson20:51

       What was strange about him?

   17. GGGraeme Garrard20:53

       Um, he- he didn't fit into society, um, the- the polite society that he inhabited in- in 18th century Paris, the world of Voltaire and- and the other philosophes. Um, and uh, he rejected that whole world and um, he preferred to live a life of austerity. Um, uh, he also, um, may have had some mental problems (laughs) .

   18. CWChris Williamson21:18

       (laughs)

   19. GGGraeme Garrard21:18

       Um, he had a tendency toward paranoia. Um, and um, you know, he- he was a difficult man in- in most respects, um, both on principle and by virtue of his personality. Um, right. Who else would I be interested in? Well, Socrates. I mean, Socrates, Socrates features in the book, but of course, Socrates didn't write anything.

   20. CWChris Williamson21:40

       Mm-hmm.

   21. GGGraeme Garrard21:41

       So it would really be Plato. Um, so I would have to include Plato as well, I think.

   22. CWChris Williamson21:46

       Okay.

   23. GGGraeme Garrard21:46

       Um, just because of the sheer, um, uh, range and depth of his thought. He just wrote about everything and he did it all brilliantly. I'm not really a Plato, I'm not a Platonist, but um, I mean, uh, five minutes with Plato, I'd give, uh, I'd give a lot of, uh, um, I'd sacrifice a lot to spend five minutes...

   24. CWChris Williamson22:05

       The

8. 22:06 – 24:41

   Five Minutes With Plato

   1. CWChris Williamson22:06

      table wouldn't get bored, would they? You know, if Pla- if Plato sat on the table, there's always going to be something else to have a discussion about.

   2. GGGraeme Garrard22:12

      Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, it would be an- he's almost inexhaustible.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:16

      Yeah.

   4. GGGraeme Garrard22:17

      Um, so, uh, that would certainly keep the conversation going.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:20

      Mm-hmm.

   6. GGGraeme Garrard22:20

      I don't think, I don't think Rousseau would be a good conversationalist, but, uh...

   7. CWChris Williamson22:23

      I was gonna say, what role do you think Rousseau would play? He'd- he'd probably be smoking, wouldn't he? He'd be smoking over the far side, complaining about, complaining about the service or something. Yeah.

   8. GGGraeme Garrard22:32

      Yeah. Yeah, he would. He'd be complaining about something anyway (laughs) .

   9. CWChris Williamson22:34

      Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

   10. GGGraeme Garrard22:35

       Um, he would be disagreeing with people at least, uh, so um. Uh, who else would I include there? Well, um, I think Thomas Hobbes, uh, would- would probably be on my short list of uh, of five.

   11. CWChris Williamson22:50

       Mm-hmm.

   12. GGGraeme Garrard22:51

       Um, again, for the power of his mind and his originality. Um, he had a very, um, acute and analytical mind, um, and had a very clear, if rather stark view of the world. Um, I think that would be really interesting. Um, he had a huge range. I mean, he was famous initially for writing about mathematics and geometry and things like that. Um, so he was a really, um, uh, what we would call Renaissance man in terms of the range of his thought. And so I think he would be a fascinating person, and I think he would have a lot to say about the contemporary world as well.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:31

       Hmm. Hmm. What do you think he would think?

   14. GGGraeme Garrard23:34

       I think he'd feel a lot of vindication (laughs) because um, you know, he lived, he lived during the English Civil War, and he wrote his masterpiece Leviathan, um, in response to the English Civil War, sort of traumatized him, and that's what prompted him. So he's a man who really saw conflict as the, as the human norm and um, thought that that was the most urgent and pressing issue. So I think he would look around the world today and see, um, that he- he had been proven right.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:01

       Would it just be a big, "I told you so?"

   16. GGGraeme Garrard24:03

       I think it would be a lot of that. (laughs) Yeah, I think to a large extent it would be, uh, um, uh, of course, people, you know, see what they want to see, um-

   17. CWChris Williamson24:12

       Yeah.

   18. GGGraeme Garrard24:12

       ... with what they call confirmation bias involved, but, um, uh, he would certainly be someone I think, um, I'd like to spend time with, uh-

   19. CWChris Williamson24:20

       Mm-hmm.

   20. GGGraeme Garrard24:20

       ... and chat, chat to. Um, that's three thinkers. Um, uh, I think Karl Marx would have to be on that list as well. Uh, I'd be interested to meet him personally. (laughs) Um, uh, he was a- a sort of larger-than-life figure and a gregarious and a- a bearish sort of man in many ways, um, larger than life. Um,

9. 24:41 – 25:58

   Platos Personality

   1. GGGraeme Garrard24:41

      but I think-

   2. CWChris Williamson24:41

      I was gonna say, what- what- what is he actually like as a personality? Because I know a- a very shallow amount of his work.

   3. GGGraeme Garrard24:48

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson24:48

      I don't actually know what- what he was like as an individual. Could you tell us about that?

   5. GGGraeme Garrard24:52

      Yeah, um, he- he was, uh, um, formidably intelligent, uh, uh, vastly well-read, um, extremely broad-ranging as a mind. Um, he was, uh, say, uh, uh, reputation as being a somewhat bearish and, uh, cantankerous, uh, as a personality, but also quite gregarious, uh, disorderly. Um, he liked to drink and carouse with his- his mates. Um, uh, uh, he used to go on pub crawls and, uh, get up to, uh, to no good in that respect. Um, he was extremely unconventional. He was fearless. Um, he sacrificed enormous amounts for his views, uh, and his family. Um, he's lived in great poverty, uh, in exile in London. Um, and, uh, so therefore did his family. So he's a very courageous man and had the courage of his convictions. Um, so, uh, a very big, complex personality that would be... I'm sure fill a room and would probably dominate it too, uh, and could be really fierce, I think, as well.

10. 25:58 – 27:31

    Profligate

    1. GGGraeme Garrard25:58

    2. CWChris Williamson25:58

       He'd probably be, he'd probably be good at, uh, make bartering with the waitress to get the check down.

    3. GGGraeme Garrard26:03

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson26:03

       I imagine he'd probably be... once, like, the food's come at the end, he'd- he'd have a reason as to why this shouldn't be so expensive and this shouldn't be very expensive.

    5. GGGraeme Garrard26:10

       (laughs) Yeah, right. Well, he, you know, he had a- a tendency, actually, to be quite, um, profligate with money.

    6. CWChris Williamson26:17

       Did?

    7. GGGraeme Garrard26:17

       That's interesting. Um, his friend... Yeah, his friend, um, uh, Friedrich Engels, kept him afloat financially, uh, so he could be a- an intellectual, full-time intellectual. And, um, he ended up spending quite a lot of money on- uh, on Karl Marx, who- who, um, was very free in spending it. Uh, it's- it's, uh, for someone who didn't have much, um, he s- he spent it quite freely. Um, but, uh... So I- I wonder if he would, but, I mean, he, uh, you know, he was argumentative, so he would probably have put up a fight. Um, he once applied for a job with a railway. This is before British Rail existed, when the railways were private and, uh, um, he was turned down for the job. But, um, one imagines if he had been accepted for that, uh, as a conductor on a train, uh, what that might have been like.

    8. CWChris Williamson27:07

       (laughs)

    9. GGGraeme Garrard27:07

       You know, um, we might not have had... Uh, the 20th century might not have looked the way it did.

    10. CWChris Williamson27:11

        Yeah.

    11. GGGraeme Garrard27:11

        But, uh, one could imagine him, uh, you know, trying to collect the tickets of the- of the well-to-do bourgeoisie on the trains and, you know, telling them, uh, "Your ticket, please, you, uh, bourgeois pig," or something like that.

    12. CWChris Williamson27:23

        (laughs) Yeah.

    13. GGGraeme Garrard27:25

        So, uh, he- he- he was a sort of angry man, but he thought he had good reason to be. (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson27:29

        Mm-hmm.

11. 27:31 – 30:23

    Friedrich Nietzsche

    1. CWChris Williamson27:31

       I got you. So we've got four. Who's- who's your final guest gonna be?

    2. GGGraeme Garrard27:35

       Um, right. Well, that's... Now it gets really tough. Um, uh, um, let's say, um, let's say Friedrich Nietzsche.

    3. CWChris Williamson27:45

       Okay.

    4. GGGraeme Garrard27:47

       Uh, that's difficult, you know, it's, uh, to choose, but, um, yeah, I would say Friedrich Nietzsche. A lot of... Nietzsche is very, very popular now. He wasn't in his own lifetime. He publishes-

    5. CWChris Williamson27:57

       Is that true? He wasn't- wasn't very well- well, uh, circulated when he was alive?

    6. GGGraeme Garrard28:01

       Not in the least. Uh, he, um... His books didn't sell. He had to publish them himself. He had to finance the publishing of his own books, um, in his own lifetime, uh, books that now sell in the hundreds of thousands. Um, he couldn't, he couldn't, uh, um, get published often and had to finance the publishing himself. He, um, uh... His response to that was, um, he said that, uh, "You know, if my books don't sell, don't blame me if there are no fish in the sea." (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson28:31

       (laughs)

    8. GGGraeme Garrard28:32

       Um, he said, uh, you know, "People weren't ready for them yet." And in a sense, he's- he was right. He was sort of ahead of his time. Um, so, uh, that's all changed and now he looms very large. You go to sort of find his books in, uh, in airport, uh, bookshops now. (laughs) Um, libraries and bookshops grown under the weight of his books. So he- he touches a chord in a way, resonates with readers now in a way that he never did in his own lifetime.

    9. CWChris Williamson28:59

       Why do you think that is now?

    10. GGGraeme Garrard29:02

        Really good question and very hard one to answer. Um, I think he offered a diagnosis, um, about, uh, the malaise of modernity, um, about the crisis of, uh, Western civilization as he saw it, um, that centers around the idea of the death of God, um, the loss of belief, the beliefs that really sustained Western civilization for, um, 2000 years, um, were starting to be really questioned in a serious way in his own lifetime, and that induced a sense of, um, of angst, and he expressed that very well, very, uh, powerfully in a way that a lot of others didn't. Um, and I think that, um, his sense of the problem was very acute and very, um, uh, profound and interesting. Um, the problem with Nietzsche is that the cure that he prescribed was much worse than the illness. Uh, the- the cure he prescribed was really quite a disaster. Um, it appealed to the Nazis, for example. Um, but I... So, I mean, there's not much to be learned from his cure, um, but from his diagnosis, I think he's one of the supreme diagnosticians of the- of- of the problems, the malaise and problems of, um, sort of late modern civilization.

12. 30:23 – 31:51

    Douglas Murray Alain de Botton

    1. CWChris Williamson30:23

       Mm. Yeah. I've got, um, Douglas Murray-

    2. GGGraeme Garrard30:26

       (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson30:26

       ... on in, uh, in a couple of weeks-

    4. GGGraeme Garrard30:28

       Right.

    5. CWChris Williamson30:29

       ... talk- talking about his new book, which, uh, I s- I need to hurry up reading, which is over there. And, um, eh, very in- he's delivering it, the- the book's hilarious in a- a very hard-hitting way. But, um, one of the things that he brings up is exactly that, the fact that this, uh, the, um breakdown of the previous institutions that gave us social cohesion-

    6. GGGraeme Garrard30:47

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson30:47

       ... that made us work together, that, um, gave people a great sense of purpose. I also recently went to go and see Alain de Botton-

    8. GGGraeme Garrard30:55

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson30:55

       ... the guy behind The School of Life-

    10. GGGraeme Garrard30:57

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson30:57

        ... um, who, if anybody who is listening has the opportunity to go and see him live, unbelievably compelling public speaker, absolutely fantastic. I saw Jordan Peterson last year, and I would, uh, be prepared to say that Alain was more engaging live, which is a- a real-

    12. GGGraeme Garrard31:12

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson31:12

        ... credit to him. And, um, Alain de Botton was talking about the same thing. He talked about the- the crisis of a meritocracy, the fact that we're disconnected from nature and from a sense of grandeur and all-

    14. GGGraeme Garrard31:21

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson31:21

        ... of these sorts of things.

    16. GGGraeme Garrard31:22

        (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson31:23

        And, um, it is- it is interesting that as society modernizes and we have more convenience, better healthcare, people are living longer, we're not dying of diseases-

    18. GGGraeme Garrard31:35

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson31:35

        ... there are these, uh, unpredicted, unexpected side effects that-

    20. GGGraeme Garrard31:41

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CWChris Williamson31:41

        ... come with that. I also, uh, I- I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I was discussing a little while ago about, (smacks lips) um, Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

    22. GGGraeme Garrard31:48

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson31:48

        And what I said was that, (smacks lips)

13. 31:51 – 34:36

    Nietzsche

    1. CWChris Williamson31:51

       uh, a Paleolithic ancestor who was out on the plains, who was struggling to fulfill the bottom of that-

    2. GGGraeme Garrard31:57

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson31:57

       ... the foundation of that particular, uh, pyramid, probably isn't too concerned about self-actualization or about-

    4. GGGraeme Garrard32:04

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson32:05

       ... the existential dread of whether or not he is spending his life in the service of the greatest purpose that he can.

    6. GGGraeme Garrard32:12

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson32:12

       But as soon as we flipped that particular pyramid on its head and all of those bottom things have been taken care of, I think that's where a lot of the existential dread comes in, that there is so-

    8. GGGraeme Garrard32:22

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson32:22

       ... much convenience at the bottom, the problem is now of abundance, not of scarcity.

    10. GGGraeme Garrard32:26

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's very much, uh, Nietzsche's view. Um, so, uh, Nietzsche, uh, attacked his own civilization for, uh, being, uh, uh, a- a world of comfortable self-preservation, uh, a really narrow, uh, sheepish world where most people's lives involved, uh, they had no tension in them. Um, he- he used the analogy of a- of a bow and arrow. He said that- that the, um, the- the- the- the bow of life in modern Western decadent civilization was flabby, it wasn't taut.

    11. CWChris Williamson33:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. GGGraeme Garrard33:03

        There was no te- no tension in the bow.

    13. CWChris Williamson33:06

        Mm-hmm.

    14. GGGraeme Garrard33:06

        Because as you say, a lot of the- the- the things that have preoccupied humans through much of history, just getting by, um, having enough food to eat, shelter, those basic things had, by the 19th century, by the late 19th century, um, for- for a lot of people, um, uh, had been, um, satisfied. Perhaps not completely and for lots not, but, um, for those for whom it w- had been satisfied, their minds, as you say, turned to other things. What's the purpose of life, the meaning of life? And, uh, Nietzsche was very contemptuous of, uh, um, well, of the English in general. (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson33:42

        (laughs)

    16. GGGraeme Garrard33:42

        And of, um, uh, John Stuart Mill, who's also features in the book, um, uh, who was a utilitarian, who believed that happiness was the purpose of life. Um, and, uh, Nietzsche said, "No, it- it's not. Um, uh, life has other purposes." Uh, and one of his inspirations was, um, the- the Greek tragic poets of the ancient world. So Nietzsche thought that one of the prices that we pay as a civilization for having, um, satisfied so many of these, uh, more basic needs is, um, a loss of that tension, a loss of tragedy, a loss of drama, a loss of struggle. And in the absence of those, we don't- we can't achieve anything great.

    17. CWChris Williamson34:23

        Mm.

    18. GGGraeme Garrard34:24

        And, um, our soci- our civilization won't produce. It's just a civilization of mediocrity-

    19. CWChris Williamson34:29

        (laughs)

    20. GGGraeme Garrard34:29

        ... of, as I said, comfortable self-preservation. And that he thought that was an ignoble form of life. And-

    21. CWChris Williamson34:35

        I think-

14. 34:36 – 38:35

    Stress

    1. CWChris Williamson34:36

       I th- I think that me and Nietzsche would probably have quite a bit to agree on. Um, everything, even if you look at the individual level rather than a societal-wide level or a nation statewide level, (coughs) a lot of the things that make us feel good involve periods of some sort of stress. So acupuncture mats, I was discussing this the other day, acupuncture mats, I dunno whether you've seen them, it's like a yoga mat, but it's got little spikes on it and you lie on it. And I asked one of my friends, because there's all sorts of different, um, uh, claims that are touted around on the internet about these sorts of things.

    2. GGGraeme Garrard35:08

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson35:08

       And one of my friends, I said, "Well, what- what mechanism do you think it's working on?" 'Cause he's a doctor, but he also thinks that they're effective. I was like-

    4. GGGraeme Garrard35:15

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson35:15

       ... "Well, what do you think it's doing?" And he said, "It's the same as everything else." It's the same as doing high-intensity workout. It's the same as having a cold shower. It's the same as going-

    6. GGGraeme Garrard35:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson35:21

       ... for a difficult run. It is a brief period of stress which allows the body to, uh, reset its equilibrium to a- a- a better state. Also-

    8. GGGraeme Garrard35:31

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson35:31

       ... it allows you to feel discomfort on your own terms.

    10. GGGraeme Garrard35:35

        Hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson35:35

        And that discomfort on your own terms then reframes other levels of discomfort. If you-

    12. GGGraeme Garrard35:40

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson35:41

        ... run a half-marathon last weekend, what is a minor disagreement with your colleague at work this week?

    14. GGGraeme Garrard35:47

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson35:47

        You're now seeing things within this new frame. And it's interesting-

    16. GGGraeme Garrard35:50

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson35:51

        ... that- that life of- of comfort, uh, that flabby life of comfort, I think-

    18. GGGraeme Garrard35:54

        (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson35:55

        ... it encourages people to look at small problems with such fidelity-

    20. GGGraeme Garrard35:59

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CWChris Williamson35:59

        ... that they then begin to grow and grow and grow. And then this has been enabled by always-on communication, and then this has been-

    22. GGGraeme Garrard36:06

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson36:06

        ... exacerbated by echo chambers online, which are delivered by social media and frictionless-

    24. GGGraeme Garrard36:11

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson36:11

        ... you know, it- it, when you look at it through this lens of history, it really isn't that much of a surprise that we are coming up against these problems. And the fact that Nietzsche was able to see this with such-

    26. GGGraeme Garrard36:24

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson36:24

        ... uh, uh, i- in- in so much advance is, uh, is pretty impressive.

    28. GGGraeme Garrard36:30

        Yeah, I mean, he was talking, I think about the, the, the, the pathologies of, um, of a, of a, (laughs) as he saw it, decadent civilization, a rich, flabby, indulgent, decadent civilization. And, um, he recoiled against that. Um, but, uh, you know, there's a, a concept in psychology known as contrast effect, which says that, um, that, uh, that the human mind functions to some ... to considerable degree on the basis of contrast, that, um, uh ... And they've done experiments to support this, uh, in s- in social psychology that, um, you know, we understand things and we experience things by means of contrast. So if you only lived in a, uh, a- an environment that had one temperature, you, you wouldn't really, um, un- uh, understand the concept of, of those, of different temperatures. It's the contrast between them that gives meaning and definition to the experiences. And I think that's part of what Nietzsche was getting at, the, the basic insight here being that, um, you know, a l- life lived only one way, um, is missing some key element to understanding and appreciating what's good about that life, as well as what's missing. And so I think there's a really fundamental insight in Nietzsche, uh, at a psychological level, not just at the level of civilization, but, um, he was a really acute psychologist, better psychologist than philosopher, in my opinion. (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson38:02

        (laughs)

    30. GGGraeme Garrard38:02

        Um, he was a pretty sloppy philosopher, very self-indulgent philosopher, but he, he was a very brilliant psychologist. Uh, Sigmund Freud was a, a believer that Nietzsche was a great psychologist. Um, and I think he understood this. I think he was expressing the same idea that, um, you really need tension, contrast, drama to really, um, uh, achieve things in life and also to understand and give meaning to things-
15. 38:35 – 41:28

    Machiavelli

    1. CWChris Williamson38:35

       mentioned that Machiavelli was, had suffered for his thoughts. I, I haven't, I haven't heard that story. Would you be able to tell us about that?

    2. GGGraeme Garrard38:43

       Yes, he suffered quite horribly. (laughs) Um, uh, it wasn't ... Uh, well, it was, um, less for his thoughts than simply for his involvement in politics. Um, he was a diplomat and a civil servant in his working life, um, until, uh, you know, in the Renaissance, in Renaissance Florence where he lived, politics was, was, um, a nasty game. And, um, if you backed the wrong side, you suffered consequences if your side lost. And his side did lose, and, um, he was kicked out of office because he was on the losing side, and then he was arrested, and then he was, um, tortured, and, um, and then he was exiled and, um, nearly killed, in fact. It's a big-

    3. CWChris Williamson39:27

       It's a big laundry-

    4. GGGraeme Garrard39:28

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson39:28

       ... list of nasty things to have happened-

    6. GGGraeme Garrard39:30

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson39:30

       ... to you, isn't it?

    8. GGGraeme Garrard39:30

       Yeah. Yeah. Well, he, he took it really well. He wrote some-

    9. CWChris Williamson39:33

       (laughs) Fair play.

    10. GGGraeme Garrard39:34

        You know, he to- he wrote some amusing sonnets about his being tortured. Um, uh, the bit that, that, um, that he ha- found the most difficult of all those things was being exiled, being removed from politics, 'cause he was a really political animal. He loved politics. He loved being in the fray, at the center of the storm of politics, the vortex of politics. And he ha- he, he took the, the torture reasonably well, um, but he didn't take the, uh, exile very well, the exile from politics. Um, then it was only after that, that he wrote his, his books, the books for which he's most famous, The Prince, for example. Um, but, uh, these weren't published in his lifetime, and, um, they were, uh, they became notor- notorious later on. Um, but, uh, you know, that's the way politics was, was, uh, uh, played, the game of politics was played back then. He understood that. He knew the rules of the game, and he took it well.

    11. CWChris Williamson40:31

        Mm. That's fun. So one of the things that you've, uh, it's been a consistent theme throughout this discussion, is a lot of the political thinkers, the scholars or the statesmen that we've been discussing have been real intellectual powerhouses. A lot of them-

    12. GGGraeme Garrard40:48

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson40:48

        ... have had, been able to draw from multiple different subject areas. Nietzsche not only doing philosophy, also doing psychology.

    14. GGGraeme Garrard40:55

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson40:55

        Aristotle, Socrates.

    16. GGGraeme Garrard40:58

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson40:58

        S- s- th- these sort of guys. You've got, um, p- people that were economists, master economists, and they-

    18. GGGraeme Garrard41:03

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson41:03

        ... then funneled this ability into politics. One of the things that you brought up at the very beginning in the book, which I really loved, was talking about the difference between, uh, knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, I think, which were the, the three different-

    20. GGGraeme Garrard41:15

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson41:15

        ... the three different levels that you had to, to the way that people put, uh, knowledge into action and the highest version of its delivery to reality being that of wisdom.

    22. GGGraeme Garrard41:27

        Mm-hmm.

16. 41:28 – 51:36

    Naive Idealist vs Naive Realist

    1. GGGraeme Garrard41:28

    2. CWChris Williamson41:28

       Is that something that politicians should strive for? Because to me now, politics, and a lot of the people that are listening will think, "Well, this all sounds well and good, but this is kind of a archaic, romantic view of what politicians were." They were these armchair philosophers who didn't actually have to deliver things. And now, politicians to me appear much more like kings would have done, perhaps in the past.

    3. GGGraeme Garrard41:54

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson41:54

       Is that ... Does that make sense?

    5. GGGraeme Garrard41:56

       Yeah, it makes sense. Um, I understand that criticism. Uh, they're wrong. (laughs) Um, so in, in the introduction to this book, we make a distinction between what we call, uh, naive idealists and naive realists, and we try to position ourselves somewhere between the two. So a naive idealist would be someone of the type you've just described, who hasn't got a lot of experience, of real experience in politics, who's a bit otherworldly, has their both feet firmly planted in the clouds as it were, um, and just sort of, um, prescribes things with no real sense of reality. Um, so that's one extreme, and, uh-You know, we- we don't think that's, um, the right view. And- and the other extreme is- is the, what we call naïve realism, the kind that I started with at the beginning, the Frank Underwood, the Francis Urquhart view, that ideas a- and values have really no part to play at all, that politics is f- simply about power and interest. Um, so we try to show that, uh, politics involves both aspects, it's power, but, um, the idea that you can understand or be effective in political life with- without considering that there are other things involved than just power and interest, things like ideas and values and beliefs, um, I don't think is- makes people very effective politicians.

    6. CWChris Williamson43:22

       Mm-hmm.

    7. GGGraeme Garrard43:22

       And, um, that's particularly the case when you- they come up against big problems. And if I can give a concrete example, uh, I think, a recent example, I think David Cameron is a good example of a kind of politician, he's in the news now for his memoirs, um, who- who didn't really have, a- a- as far as I could see, any really clear conception of the role that ideas and, uh, um, values play in politics, a kind of very pragmatic politician. Now, that's fine in good times, but when you're confronted with really deep divisions and problems of the kind that Brexit has opened up, let's say, um, or the rise of populism, uh, in the West, let's say, um, then I think, uh, you need to be able to, uh, understand that, uh, people are interested in- in issues of identity, of- of goals and ends, and that these necessarily play a part in life. They may not always play the same part or a big part, but they're always there. There's no way around it. And, um, I think that, uh, that- that the- the ideal view of politics combines an appreciation of both. It's- it's- it's a mixed form of- of- of activity. It involves, um, power and interest on one side and ideas and values and- and conceptions of justice and ends as well, means and ends. And, um, so people who say, "Well, it's just naïve to involve, uh," you know, to try and move politics in the direction of i- of- of the latter, of ideas and conceptions of justice, the- the ends and purposes of life, um, I think that's wrong. I think that we- we need to rebalance our understanding of politics so that it involves both, um, and that the politics with- the- the quality of public debate would be improved, um, the, uh, um, understanding of political life would be improved. And I think we've moved too far in the- in the- into the Frank Underwood view-

    8. CWChris Williamson45:30

       Mm-hmm.

    9. GGGraeme Garrard45:31

       ... this, the sort of extreme, cynical view of politics. And it's-

    10. CWChris Williamson45:35

        I couldn't agree- couldn't- couldn't agree more there that the fact that politicians, you know, we've ... I- I've given you the opportunity to sit down with five people who are involved in politics.

    11. GGGraeme Garrard45:43

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CWChris Williamson45:44

        You've- you've- you've struggled to choose those five, right? Because you're-

    13. GGGraeme Garrard45:46

        Absolutely.

    14. CWChris Williamson45:47

        ... spoiled for choice. You've got these people-

    15. GGGraeme Garrard45:49

        Absolutely.

    16. CWChris Williamson45:49

        ... who are- who are, um, unbelievable thinkers and- and polymaths across all different areas of- of thought.

    17. GGGraeme Garrard45:55

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson45:55

        Um, now my conception of politicians isn't that of someone that I look up to with ... as- as- as a paragon of wisdom, right?

    19. GGGraeme Garrard46:05

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson46:05

        I don't- I don't think, "Oh my God, like, I can't wait to sit down with Boris Johnson. I bet he's got, like-" "... such a- a- a unbelievable understanding of the inner nuances of- of the human- human mind." Like, I don't- I don't think that.

    21. GGGraeme Garrard46:16

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson46:16

        I- I think that- that lack of aspiration equates to a lack of respect on an individual level for a lot of people who look up at these politicians and-

    23. GGGraeme Garrard46:24

        Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson46:24

        ... yeah, tha- that's definitely a mechanism that I can see working. In- interestingly, you mentioned about, uh, David Cameron's memoirs. Did you see his morning routine? Have you seen this?

    25. GGGraeme Garrard46:35

        No, I haven't.

    26. CWChris Williamson46:36

        So we're big fans of morning routines on the show, and we work quite hard to come up with something that we enjoy on a morning, so presumably it's something that he enjoyed, but he spoke about he would wake up on a morning and he would have mackerel on toast-

    27. GGGraeme Garrard46:49

        (laughs)

    28. CWChris Williamson46:50

        ... and then sit in a room for two hours and just think.

    29. GGGraeme Garrard46:53

        (laughs)

    30. CWChris Williamson46:53

        And I was like, "David, I'm not ... I- I don't- I don't wanna critique it too much, right? You know, you did ... you- you got yourself certainly further in the House of Commons than I ever have, but mackerel on toast and sitting in a room on your own for two hours-"

Episode duration: 51:36