How To Truly Build Toughness - Greg Everett | Modern Wisdom Podcast 300

Greg Everett 0:00 ... he gets seen by a fishing boat finally, after 76 days, and he's so dialed in and, like, accepting of his situation that when the guys come to save him, he goes, "No, no, no, you guys go ahead and finish fishing and then pick me up when you're done." So he literally sat there and waited for these guys to finish their day of fishing, just waited in this raft. He's like, "Hey, 76 days, what's another six to eight hours?" (wind blows)

Chris Williamson 0:25 What do most people have wrong about toughness? What is it not?

Greg Everett 0:30 Uh, well, what... I think the, the biggest common, uh, mistake people make is that it's... we see it as being, uh, a masculine quality or somehow inherently related to manhood or, or the, the condition of being a man. Um, and I spend a lot of time in that early on in the book, really breaking it down and explaining what exactly being tough truly is. And it has nothing to do with sex, gender, or any of these things. They are totally independent elements, uh, that anybody can attain with the proper, you know, work and understanding. Um, and the, the, the, kind of the secondary part of that is that it is associated a lot of the times with kind of violence or aggression or, uh, that, that sort of, um, need to demonstrate our ability or our superiority over others. And again, totally unrelated to what being tough truly is. Uh, but we, we have these associations in our minds, especially based on our past experiences with people who claim to be tough or whom others tell us are tough, which is often far, far off the mark.

Chris Williamson 1:40 There's been a recent, I would say in the last five years I've noticed quite strongly, a surge in content around fortitude and resilience and toughness, and people like David Goggins are being really upheld and cold showers are becoming a thing and, you know... W- why do you think people are drawn toward a discussion about toughness in 2021?

Greg Everett 2:05 I think because you simultaneously have it becoming less of a normal trait for people than it used to be, but more and more necessary for us to get through our lives now, and those things are related, certainly. Uh, y- you look back at, say, like, my grandfather's generation, uh, going through the Great Depression, World War II, uh, these sorts of things where, you know, my grandparents grew up on farms. They were dirt poor. Uh, there were traits that you developed as a child growing up in a situation like that, that, you know, a lot of people still do in, in, you know, both of our countries of course, but where it wasn't this thing that you sought out, it was just something that naturally you developed because there was no other choice. You wanna eat? Well, you better figure out how to eat, and it's gonna take some work. Versus my daughter's generation, like, "Hey, I wanna eat." They boop, boop, boop, and someone delivers food to their door 20 minutes later while they're sitting there watching, you know, 15,000 different shows on TV. Uh, so it's, it's this totally different experience that we're having in our lives, and I think what's happening is that more and more of us are recognizing that there is something missing, that we're... there's an absence of experience, um, and, uh, you know, a, a sense of fulfillment and contentment and accomplishment because we're not required to engage in things that are difficult and demanding and require commitment, um, a- and, and an understanding of who we truly are and what's important to us. So we're kind of just flailing around, uh, searching for ways to entertain ourselves and distract ourselves, which temporarily is satisfying, but in the long term kind of leaves us having a, a, you know, a continual series of midlife crises, right? So instead of having one midlife crisis like the olden days, now we have one every five years where it's like, "What have we been doing? What do I wanna do? Who am I? This is awful."

Chris Williamson 4:04 Mm-hmm.

Greg Everett 4:05 Uh, and so I, I think that's why it's becoming more and more of a popular topic.

Chris Williamson 4:10 How do you define toughness then? What, what is it? If that's what it's not, what is it?

Greg Everett 4:17 So I break it down into four, uh, elements. The first one is character, and that is simply what is your identity? And, and the corollary to that is, are you secure in that identity? So who are you and what is important to you? What's meaningful to you? Um, because without that, that, that's your guide for every decision you make. And so many of us are just absolutely clueless when it comes to who we actually are. Uh, a lot of us have stories in our minds that we've been telling ourselves about who we are for our entire lives, uh, most of the time very far from accurate. Uh, but that's kind of what props up our egos and makes us believe that we have this kind of dialed in and figured out. Um, and the security in that identity is key too, because so many of us are totally insecure in who we are, and that's why we have so many of us, uh, you know, constantly on the search for recognition and appreciation and, and credit and, uh, you know, th- these desperate pleas for validation. L- you know, look at social media every day. It's just, it's sad, honestly. Um, and so much of it is unconscious. Like, people are not setting out every day like, "I need someone to tell me I'm, I'm strong and pretty." Uh, but that's what it is. And, and, and without that security, we end up with the, you know, those kind of, uh, behaviors and also, you know, the ridiculous unnecessary competition and the one-upmanship and all these things that just drive ridiculous behavior and prevent us from accomplishing anything actually meaningful, uh, long term. Uh, next you have capability, which is, uh, not just physical ability, uh, and physical traits and skills, but knowledge. It's, and it's y- your... We need to garner this through the accumulation of very broad, uh, experiences, novel experiences and learning, you know, collecting more and more tools, uh, physically, mentally, uh, emotionally, and learning how to succeed through different situations, unpredictable situations, and gaining the confidence that comes along with, uh, successfully experiencing such things. Um-... next, we have, uh, capacity, which is what, you know, most people think of as resilience, but I distinguish this from resilience in that, you know, resilience technically is a return to your original condition following some kind of adversity or trauma, right? So that, to me, the analogy is storm comes, you go downstairs, you ride it out in the cellar, you wait for it to clear up, you go back and just resume your life. That's resilience. That's good, right? We're not getting destroyed by it. But what I want is to use those experiences, that adversity, hardship, challenge, to, to develop further, to become stronger, more intelligent, more engaged with the world, uh, to view, to add to that toolbox, to get more experience using th- those tools in, in, in unique, novel ways. Um, and then finally is commitment, and this encompasses, uh, you know, discipline, uh, habit building, routine, these sorts of things, and this is really what brings all of the previous three together. Because without the commitment to it, the rest are just kind of a private fantasy, right? You... This is the story we're telling ourselves, "Well, I am, I am resilient, and I am capable." But if we don't actually put those things into use during meaningful, significant, uh, experiences, then we're not those things. We either have the potential to be those things, or we're just lying to ourselves. Uh, and so that, that's what kind of wraps it all up, and that's how we create that life.

Chris Williamson 7:40 Going back to character, do you think it's built or revealed? Is character something that's innate, or is it something that we have to construct?

Greg Everett 7:49 Uh, I don't think it's innate, although I do think obviously we have, uh, much of it is built without our participation early on in life, right? It's, you know, through our influences, our parents, our family, our friends, our teachers, coaches, whatever. Um, and so, you know, when you're six years old, you're not conscious of the development of your character unless you're some kind of, you know, genius, prodigy kid. But, uh, so because of that, there's always opportunities for character to be revealed, for us to experience something that forces us to look at who we are at present. But at the same time, I do think we have, you know, uh, uh, complete ability to determine who we are, to decide our character, uh, to figure out what then, you know, the behavior, the speech, the ways of thinking then support that identity, and then to make those changes in our lives to reflect it. So, it's, it's a, you know, a dialectical process where maybe we experience something, we see, "Wow, this is who I am. It is not who I believed I was. It is not who I want to be. So who do I want to be? And now, more importantly, how do I actually make that true? What do I need to change in my life? How do I need to behave and think and speak in order to actually become that person rather than just thinking this is who I would like to be?"

Chris Williamson 9:07 Man, the more that I look at learning-

Greg Everett 9:10 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 9:10 ... about character and personal values and why are you here, looking at the core reasons for you being on the planet, I don't think that there's a more important question that anyone should be asking themselves.

Greg Everett 9:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:22 It took me until I was 31 to do, sit down and actually work out the five core values that my life is built upon, which is mental.

Greg Everett 9:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:31 How did I get through 18 years of full-time education, two degrees, including a master's, and no one ever said, "Why are you here?" Like, "What, what, what's the reason that you're here?" I'd done it for businesses. So, the young-

Greg Everett 9:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:45 ... entrepreneurs that are listening who've sat down and said, "Right. Okay, so let's talk about the brand values that we've got," while the people sat around the table haven't got their own values organized.

Greg Everett 9:56 Yeah. It's bizarre. And, and, and th- what's more bizarre is that, as you said, they can be completely, uh, unaware of the ridiculousness of that situation, where they're putting so much effort into, "What, what is meaningful to my business," right? Like the business is this living entity that has its own values. It's like, no, those are your values expressed through your company, so, like, why (laughs) , why would you not do this for yourself? That... It's, it's bananas.

Chris Williamson 10:30 Yeah, man. It's, um... It, it really is, I think... It's one of the big changing points, a big inflection point that you have when you actually sit down and do that exercise. And I've been banging on-

Greg Everett 10:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:41 ... about this for, for the last year or so. Everyone that's listening will be familiar with this. But for the people that haven't already decided to do this exercise, I implore you, whether it's through Greg's book, Tough, which will be linked in the show notes below, or Taylor Pearson's, uh, Core Values exercise, which you can get online, or whatever it is, like, you need to do it. What was life like for you before and after? Was there something that, where you realized, "Right, I need to sit down and get my core values in order," or w- have you always had them set?

Greg Everett 11:10 Oh, no (laughs) . D- definitely have not, uh, had myself sorted out always. Uh, it, it's been... It's been a, a, a continual series of, of events that have kind of nudged me in, in various directions. And, um, it, it is something certainly that is ongoing, right? So even if you do sit down, you figure out your values today, um, those things are very likely going to evolve over time based on new experiences, new interactions with different people and, and new demands, things like that. Uh, but so, I mean, really early on in life for me, uh, I, I struggled very much. I was a really, uh, self-conscious, insecure kid, and, and, uh, was... I mean, I don't think I had any solid identity. I, I was the chameleon, right? Where I was popular because I could be whoever I needed to be in any group, any situation. And that works great when you're 16, 17. You know what I mean? Uh, you can get whatever girlfriend you want, right? Because you're always the right guy. Uh, and you, you know, you have these friends, and, and... But when you get a little older, you recognize, "Well, this isn't gonna get me very far. You know, I'm unhappy. Th- none of this stuff is working for me." And, and so my personal experience ear- early on was I had, uh, a huge drug problem, right? Um, and so by the time I hit, you know, at 19, 20 years old, I was...... that was the, the f- I think the first big thing where I was forced to step back and say, "Is this actually who I want to be? Am I willing to continue down this road?" Um, you know, and I had good friends who had s- you know, serious drug addiction problems. I had friends who died, I had friends who were getting arrested, these things, sorts of things. So it wasn't, it wasn't a purely conceptual exercise for me. It was, like, very clear what my potential paths were. And so that was the first thing where I really had to take a step back and be like, "I need to figure myself out." And it, it wasn't a straightforward quick thing. It took, you know, a number of years to get through that. But, uh, I think since then, what I learned was how critical that, uh, that ability to be self-reliant and independent and know exactly who I was and what was meaningful to me, because that was what was driving all of my decisions. And without that, again, like I said earlier, you're just kind of flailing around, uh, being discontent for the rest of your life.

Chris Williamson 13:35 Let's say that someone does go through their core values and work out why they're here or they, they have a good concrete idea of that, but what's next? Like, just 'cause you've got your values written down on a piece of paper somewhere, that doesn't really mean anything.

Greg Everett 13:49 Yeah. Well, what's next is the continual self-monitoring, right? And so, being, being aware of what you're doing and, and being willing and able to ask yourself with all these decisions you're making, "Does re- this reflect who I am and what's important to me?" Because so much of, of what we do in a given day is, is habitual, right? We, we, we continue to do these behaviors because we've always done them. It's, they're so well ingrained. And so much of the time those things are discordant with what we actually want to achieve or who we want to be. Uh, and so if we don't address that, we kind of just remain on that same course just through inertia. Um, and so when we get to these various, uh, you know, inflection points or, or forks in the road where we have to actually make a conscious decision, we have to fall back on these things, fall back on the identity and our values to make those decisions to ensure that they are in harmony with what is actually meaningful to us. Because so much of, uh, uh, so many of us are, are just driven by, uh, convention or tradition or what we are expected to do or what we're told that is, you know, important to us. I mean, look at how many people take personality tests or, or these things that are supposed to tell us who we are and what we want, and then, you know, I, I, I'm very, very dubious about the accuracy and the value of those things. And, and so much so because once you have decided, "Okay, well this is, this is my personality. I took a test in Cosmo or whatever. Uh, and so now I have to, you know, match all of my decisions and behaviors to this." Well, that's the same thing as not knowing who you are, because that's very likely not who you are. It's just that now you feel like you have this structure, but it's still leading you down a path that is not going to deliver you, uh, repeatedly as it should to a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction.

Chris Williamson 15:46 It's an interesting one. I had Dr. Benjamin Hardy on the show, uh, discussing his book, Personality Isn't Permanent about a year ago, and he was-

Greg Everett 15:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:54 ... incredibly critical of pretty much every different personality test except for the big five. And his reason for not being critical of the big five was because you're not put into a type with the big five.

Greg Everett 16:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:06 They don't say that you're a green or an MBTI or a, a, a classic-

Greg Everett 16:11 Right.

Chris Williamson 16:11 ... classic sparkly dragon or a new age sparkly dragon-

Greg Everett 16:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:14 ... whatever it is. Like that, it doesn't give you a category that, that he feels constrains people. Um, but yeah, man, uh, uh, looking at the way that character relates to capability, capacity, and commitment, it seems to me that character needs to be there to form the foundation. That everything else can be built upon very, very shaky, um, underpinnings if you don't actually understand why you're here and what you're doing. As mutual friend Ben Bergeron talks about, he says, "You can spend a lifetime climbing a ladder only to realize it's put up against the wrong wall." And-

Greg Everett 16:47 Right.

Chris Williamson 16:47 ... um, Greg McKeown told me this story about when some executive, high, high flying executive at some massive media company he'd been working at for years and years and he'd sacrificed family time, he'd been doing 18-hour days five days a week for 20 years, and he finally gets to the top. And he speaks to Greg and he says, "Man, my son won't talk to me. My 19-year-old son won't talk to me. Like, I don't have-"

Greg Everett 17:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:11 "... a relationship with my son because I've never spent any time with him. My family's in tatters and all that I want now is to have a family life. I've got all the way to the peak of this world that I thought I wanted and look at what's happened. Like, I don't-"

Greg Everett 17:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:25 "... I don't want this." So you can very, very quickly put yourself in the wrong direction if you haven't got this sorted. Um, so we've got, we've got character. In the book there are some core values exercises that peoples can go through and will help to give them some clarity on that. Moving on to capability, it's what are you able to do, right? That's your capacity-

Greg Everett 17:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:46 ... is your ability to deal with things, your capability is what you're able to do.

Greg Everett 17:53 Yeah. And this is such a, a large umbrella, right? This is really all-encompassing. Again, not just skill and physical ability like, you know, strength, endurance, whatever, but, but the knowledge. And this is so much predicated on experience, novel experience, varied experience. Uh, because so many of us are, are really stuck in this very narrow bandwidth of life experience where we, we have our profession, we have our specialty, we have our narrow set of interests. Uh, we all watch pretty much the same handful of TV shows. We all look at the same Instagram accounts. Uh, I mean, you look at, again, going back to my daughter's generation, they all talk exactly the same. Where when I was growing up, it was regional.... right? So where I was from, people spoke one way, and then, you know, other side of the state, they spoke a little bit differently. And now it's like every- everyone is so tied together across the world that it's just so homogenous. Um, and so we have to break out of that a- and, and go into peripheral realms, not just for the sake of learning what's out there, but w- understanding that the things that you learn outside of your specialty and, and your area of, of comfort and expertise will contribute to your expertise, will contribute to your specialty. And you don't know how it will because you haven't ever experienced it. There- it's unpredictable. Um, but also the- a, a huge part of that too is we, we very much overestimate our abilities when we never get outside the area in which we're already comfortable, and we develop this, this false sense of confidence, um, that, that can harm us anytime we are forced to step out of there. Whereas if we're constantly seeking out novel experiences and, and, uh, you know, developing the abilities to successfully deal with them, now we're building legitimate confidence. We're, we're creating not just the ability to handle things that are unpredictable and different, but we're developing the confidence that we can, right? And the more of those experiences we have where we successfully deal with things that we haven't dealt with before, the more we recognize, you know, our ability to, to take care of ourselves, to, uh, to handle the unpredictable, to handle adversity. And so we start chipping away at th- that very natural sense of i- intimidation and fear and anxiety that people experience when, you know, they have to en- en- encounter things that they are not already comfortable with. And that just... Think about how much of life opens up to you when you have that attitude and that mindset and that confidence. Um, what's that movie, Yes Man with Jim Carrey, where he just has to say yes to everything? You don't want to go too crazy, right? Like you have to be- work within reason there. But that's the idea is, is rather than finding reasons to avoid things because they're scary or intimidating or you, you've never done them before, uh, you know, get out there and dip your toe in the water at least and, and, and see what's going on. Because chances are you're gonna discover things that are wildly enjoyable, but also beneficial to what your primary focus is.

Chris Williamson 21:07 The interesting thing about capability is that someone's confidence is actually the limiting factor on it. When you think about, "I am able to do this physically or mentally. If you put me in a situation, I'm able to do it." But if your belief is downregulated from that, then that's what you're working off. You're actually working off 80% or 70% or 50% or 10%, you know, of whatever your available amount is. So let's say that there's someone who's listening who is a little bit low on confidence or doesn't have that self-belief. What's something that they can go out and do this week? Or how would you prescribe them some strategies for starting to build that confidence up?

Greg Everett 21:47 Well, here's the key thing, and I talk about this a lot actually in the capacity, uh, section of the book. But this is like any other physical training, where your challenges and the exercises you're doing, um, to this end have to be appropriately designed and dosed. So for example, like if you want to... You say, "I, I want to go, uh, learn how to rock climb. I've never done it before. I've never set protection. I've never been on a rope." Don't go try to climb El Capitan next week, right? You're gonna die. You're gonna have a bad time. Uh, instead, you know, go do something small. Go do some bouldering, go do some top roping with someone who's experienced. Um, and so these things have to be very individual. They need to be, uh, uh... Initially, of course, they should interest us to some degree ideally, but they should be related somehow to our lifestyle, our needs, you know, in terms of our profession, uh, and our locality, because those are the, the abilities we want to develop first. Those are our priorities, what's critical for us day to day. Um, but then you have to determine, okay, what's my starting point? Because my starting point is very different from your starting point in any given endeavor, uh, because our experiences and our knowledge is different, right? So for someone who's an experienced rock climber, maybe they- their next challenge is to, you know, free climb the nose of El Cap, uh, whereas, you know, I haven't climbed in 23 years. I'm not getting near that. No, I won't even walk to the base of that thing right now. Uh, so it- this can be literally anything, and s- and for some people it's gonna be as, as seemingly simple and mild as, um, getting past the anxiety and going to the grocery store by themselves. I mean, that can literally be a huge challenge for some of us. It was for me, uh, uh, as a, uh, an, an older teenager. I would run out of food every once in a while because I couldn't get myself to go to the store. That's how out of my mind I was with, with self-consciousness and anxiety about it. Um, and so it's, it's about sitting down and figuring out, where do I want to go? Now, how do I break those things down into smaller and smaller and more manageable pieces? Where do I start? What's step one out of 1,000 or whatever it is? Um, and so I don't have specific prescriptions for that. It's more of a- of guidance on how do you determine what's important to you, what you need to work on? And now let's figure out what's the first step, right? And so I guess what I would say is fi- you can figure out today what is, what is something that I, I, I know that I'm lacking in capability right now? What's something that's holding me back, uh, from what I want to do or who I want to be, I guess is a better way to think of it? And now what's step one in that potentially very protracted process to move me in that direction? And so you create the map and then you create those little waypoints along the way.... to keep you moving in that direction, you know, no matter how, uh, you know, tortuous it may be. It's very, very unlikely to be a, you know, a linear, uh, course, but that's what keeps you on course, uh, and, and gives you those little waypoints, those little landmarks along the way is what stokes your enthusiasm, right? Versus like, "Oh my God, I'm never gonna get this. It's such a huge goal." But each one of those little steps is a, an accomplishment, and that's what kinda keeps propelling you forward with greater and greater momentum.

Chris Williamson 25:13 What are some capabilities that everyone should have?

Greg Everett 25:18 Uh, these things are, uh, and, and some of this sounds silly, I know, but I think it's really important, but like, the ability to drive a manual transmission, right? That, like, this is one of the things, I grew up driving stick shifts and, and I finally got rid of them as I got older 'cause I got lazy, and I got tired of driving through L.A. traffic, you know, stop and go, stop and go, trying to eat a taco, change my shirt all at the same time. But, uh, y- you think, you think, "Oh, well, that's dumb. We don't need that." Okay. What if you are somewhere, your child is seriously injured, you have to get them to a hospital, and the only vehicle available is a manual transmission and you can't drive it? Are you just gonna give up on your kid? So it's like little things like that, you know, you, people say, "Oh, that's so dramatic." Yeah, it's, it's, it's melodramatic until you're in that situation and then you go, "That Greg, he was right." Uh, and now your kid hates you. So, uh, things like that, things like, um, uh, you know, literacy, uh, being capable of, of reading and comprehending things well and being able to absorb information. So many of us, the, the longest thing we read now is a, a Twitter or a tweet or an Instagram caption, and, you know, I look at, um, you know, adults my age. I, I just turned 41, and I, I read emails from people and I'm like, "How have you survived this long w- with, you know, s- so much difficulty with the language?" Like, you're missing out on so much, uh, without developing that, you know, reading more books, writing, even if it's just in a personal journal, developing that ability to articulate and communicate. Um, so there's a long list in the book of, of kind of universal capabilities, but they're, they're primarily about giving us the foundation to be successful versus specific long-term, uh, capabilities, you know, being able to climb El Capitan or whatever. Uh, it- it's more like what, what are the foundational things that allow us to move toward those things long term?

Chris Williamson 27:27 You've got a quote in that section which I loved which says, "All toughness is ultimately mental in nature regardless of how much the physical body is involved. A hammer can't pound any nails if we never pick it up off the work bench or can't find the nail." Such a good quote.

Greg Everett 27:44 Yup. Finding that nail sometimes is the hardest part.

Chris Williamson 27:46 Yeah. Uh, talking about capacity, I think this is what people believe you're referring to mostly when they talk about toughness, right? Like, resilience to adversity-

Greg Everett 27:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:56 ... what you're able to withstand.

Greg Everett 27:59 Right. Yeah. And that, these are the, these are the really compelling stories that we hear, right? People who survive, like I talk about Steven Callahan in the book survived alone in a life raft on the Atlantic Ocean for 76 days. Um, I mean, that, imagine simply being alone, being unable to communicate with anybody for 76 days, even in the comfort of your own living room. Most of us would go crazy. Like, that, that alone is difficult, but now you've got sharks bumping up under your raft, your raft is leaking, you're getting blown around by storms, getting soaked, you've got sores all over your body from the salt water. Um, that's the kind of story where we, we really are, uh, so enamored with that sort of thing, and so I think that's where we see toughness really standing out. But people forget that, uh, you know, toughness is, is demonstrated on, on an infinite gradient of intensities and durations. And so, we take that example on one end or, you know, Viktor Frankl, you know, surviving his incarceration in a concentration camp during World War II and finding a way, you know, uh, psychologically and spiritually to kind of find that sense of inner peace and freedom. Uh, we look at that, and then we kind of scoff at the, "Oh, pfft, you can't get over yourself and go to the grocery store," sort of thing, but it's like, those little things, or seemingly little things, are critical to building the capacity that gets us through the big things. And so, we can't discount those things. We can't trivialize them. We have to put our effort into those things because that is the practice, that's the foundation that moves us toward the capacity to withstand the big, glamorous things, falling off the side of a mountain or whatever it is and, you know, walking home with one leg, uh, you know, whatever it takes. But if, if you, if you're unwilling to do the, the, the work and the day-to-day stuff, it's very unlikely you're gonna get to that point where stories will be written about you.

Chris Williamson 29:58 What was your favorite story that you researched when looking at the capacity chapter?

Greg Everett 30:06 I think Steven Callahan's really stood out, the, the life raft experience.

Chris Williamson 30:09 Can you tell us about that?

Greg Everett 30:10 He wrote a book... Yeah. He wrote a book called Adrift, and, um, this was in the mid-'80s, I believe, but he was sailing solo, um, uh, I forget where he started, Canary Islands maybe, and almost immediately into this trip, uh, a whale rammed his boat and the thing sank so quickly he couldn't even get all of his survival supplies out. Thankfully, he got the, the life raft that had some gear with it. And so, reading his account of that, um, it- it's just mind-blowing because the, the...... the, the degree of ingenuity and resourcefulness that he displayed is just on such a, a higher level than most of us-

Chris Williamson 30:53 What, like?

Greg Everett 30:53 ... can even imagine. Like, so my, the, the fa- the favorite for me is that he had this, this leak in his raft, and he was trying everything and all these different ropes and knots and trying to prevent it, and it just would never stop leaking. And so he finally ended up using a fork to fix it. And so y- you look at the kind of creative thinking that involves, um, and you, and if you see it now, you're like, "Oh, no big deal. He used the fork as, like, a toggle to crank on the thing. It's so obvious." No, it's not. A fork is something that we associate with creating leaks, not fixing them. So most of us who are very ju, you know, judicial thinkers would not even entertain that as a possibility, let alone take the time to think, "Here's what I have. One of these things is a old Boy Scout fork. How can I use this to repair this leak and then actually make it happen and save that raft for another 60 days," or whatever it is, which those things are meant to last, like, a week maybe at best, I think.

Chris Williamson 31:53 Yeah.

Greg Everett 31:53 Um, and so th- there were just many stories like that. And, and, and him having this internal dialogue, and he kind of described, you know, having two people in his head. One was the very emotional, um, person, and one was the, the more rational, kind of the captain, I think he referred to it as like, "Nope, this is what has to happen. You have to do this, this, and this." And you know, the other guy's in there like, "Nah, I kind of just want to lie down and just sleep this away and forget it. I don't want to do it." And so it was, it's just s, it's this, like, perfect story to me of survival, but the, the internal dilemmas and difficulties, uh, mixed with the, um, the, the necess- or necessity of being so resourceful and creative and bringing that all together into this, like, unbelievable harmony. And then it's so incredible. He gets seen by a fishing boat finally after 76 days. And he's so dialed in and, like, accepting of his situation that when the guys come to save him, he goes, "No, no, no, you guys go ahead and finish fishing and then pick me up when you're done." So he literally sat there and waited for these guys to finish their day of fishing, just waited in this raft. He's like, "Hey, 76 days, what's another six to eight hours?" That's unreal. You know, most of us, if we were in there for six hours would be, like, s, crawling out of there, swimming to the boat, "Get me out of here." He's, "Ah, you guys, I'm just going to enjoy the view for a little while." So th- that, I mean, that book, if, if you haven't read it, that book is very much worth the time.

Chris Williamson 33:28 That's a sick story. Have you read The Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urquhart?

Greg Everett 33:34 No, I've never even heard of it.

Chris Williamson 33:35 It's such a hidden gem. So I got told about this about two years ago from a buddy. Think of Man's Search for Meaning, subtract-

Greg Everett 33:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:45 ... all of the psychological insights, add in about 10X the amount of extremeness, and you've got this book.

Greg Everett 33:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:54 It is unreal. So this guy was a, um, in the Highlanders, so one of the Scottish regiment over in Japan. Um, and then when World War II began-

Greg Everett 34:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:05 ... he was captured as a part of that when the, when Japan, uh, left, uh, or joined the war. And he gets put on these death ships, which are essentially tin boxes with 150 people in for a month at sea with no water and no food. He doesn't die. He builds the bridge over the River Kwai, uh, and is constantly-

Greg Everett 34:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:24 ... dealing with dysentery and, like, a million tropical diseases at once, doesn't die.

Greg Everett 34:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:29 Gets locked in a cage in the middle of the midday sun for, like, three days straight because he'd done something to piss off one of the Japanese people, still doesn't die. Then gets shipped over to, toward the mainland and gets knocked off his feet by the aftershock from the Nagasaki bomb drop, still doesn't die. And then stays silent for 50 years because the army told him to-

Greg Everett 34:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:52 ... to keep diplomatic relations, uh, proper. And then he writes this book as a memoir and a call to account for the Japanese government to be, um, brought up in front of the world for the crimes that they'd done against humanity while he was there. And it's so bad, but dude, like, if, if you want the contrast effect that you get where you realize-

Greg Everett 35:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:12 ... all of the problems that I have are absolutely tiny. And then also to see-

Greg Everett 35:16 Right.

Chris Williamson 35:16 ... the capacity of what people are able to go through, um, it's phenomenal, man. Like, seeing people that can go through this sort of-

Greg Everett 35:23 Forgotten Highlander, is that what it's called?

Chris Williamson 35:24 The Forgo- Forgotten Highlander, yes.

Greg Everett 35:26 Okay, yeah, I'm gonna get that.

Chris Williamson 35:26 It's a really easy book, it's like 250 pages, super easy read. Or it's uncomfortable read, but it's great. Um-

Greg Everett 35:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:32 You talked about there, about remaining composed and rational in stressful situations. How can people build that in themselves?

Greg Everett 35:41 Just like I talked about previously, this is something you practice every single day in even the most minor situations. And so we look at, uh, you know, so many of us just flipping out because we have to wait an extra minute for a traffic light signal, or, you know, our Instagram won't load fast enough for us to look at someone else's lunch, or like, w- whatever stupid things we get so frustrated and irritated and wound up about. Um, that's where you start is you recognize that reaction and you step back and you say, "Is this really who I want to be? Do I want to be the guy who's screaming at my phone because the Wi-Fi signal is 2% worse than it should be?" Um, and then you, you employ the various strategies that I talk about in the book that are well known, you know, uh, breathing techniques, different ways to change your focus, different ways to kind of create that sense of composure. And then you, you build from there. And so then you go into, you know, like, we talked about the, the various challenges you're going to create and employ for yourself.... and you start implementing those, uh, those composure tools in greater and greater, uh, challenges, you know, i- intensity and duration and, and variation of course, until you develop that ability. And along with that comes that confidence from the development of capability and that, that accumulation of experience. And so all those things, uh, coalesce to create that ability to remain composed in situations where most of us will be running around like our hair is on fire, uh, you know, looking for mom to come figure it out for us.

Chris Williamson 37:20 What is a situation that you still struggle to maintain composure in? Is it getting a red light when you-

Greg Everett 37:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:28 ... shouldn't have done with one of your athletes at a, a big competition? Is it stuff to do with business? Where, where have you still got work to do in this area?

Greg Everett 37:36 It's, it's definitely primarily work-related. Um, and I think that it's, it's almost entirely concentrated on m- any time I have to rely on someone else to do something for my business, I can't take it because it's never on time, it's never done the right way, uh, there's always some kind of problem, and I'm always asking myself, "Why am I wasting time and money dealing with other people? I coulda done this myself." And so any- anything that, like, disrupts my, you know, smooth, fluid flow of work still gets me. And so I, I am increasingly conscious of that and, and really, uh, working to, to be able to, like, take a breath and, and realize, like, "Hey," uh, you know, "we're not storming the beach here at Normandy. It's just a website," or, you know, whatever the case is. And, and like you said, that, that comparison of suffering sorta thing, yeah, I'm not locked in a, in a tin box on the ocean for 150 days, uh, I'm just a day late getting this website fix done. Like it's not, (laughs) it's not that big of a deal. And so being able to step back and have that big picture perspective, uh, is a key part of it. But yeah, that's, that's what gets me every time.

Chris Williamson 38:51 I agree, man. So I've, over the last year, my main business, which is running club nights, has been dialed down, and to operate this podcast, which has been my main project, there's only me and one guy, and both of us know what we need to do. He does his bit, and I do my bit. And it's only-

Greg Everett 39:07 Yep.

Chris Williamson 39:07 ... upon no longer... 'Cause I run club nights, which means that I'm dealing with a thousand drunk students a night. I need to mediate the relationship between the club manager and the door staff and the glass collectors and the bar staff and the bar manager and there's council on the street and the police on the street, and it's ju- it's a mi- there's a million different actors, all of whom-

Greg Everett 39:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:28 ... have their own stake. There, there's different stakeholders within the event and making sure that this thing happens, and sometimes they conflict, and sometimes they don't... And then there's a designer, and then there's the guys that run the ticketing website, and then there's all of the reps and the staff and blah, blah, blah. And, um, when you strip (laughs) all of that back, you realize how much stress comes from other people, because I think the reason it, it triggers you and me specifically is that you know you did all the things that you needed to do.

Greg Everett 39:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:57 It's like-

Greg Everett 39:57 Yeah, I did my job. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:58 ... I did my bit, and this is being fucked up because of something that you did. And, um, that's something I often think when we see influencers online or very sort of small, um, individual-based businesses now, so the, the YouTuber that's absolutely smashing it, and he has a team of maybe, like, three or four people, but is able to turn over great-

Greg Everett 40:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:21 ... money and has fantastic, um, impact. But that person isn't dealing with a million different stakeholders. They're not dealing with-

Greg Everett 40:31 Right.

Chris Williamson 40:32 ... California State coming and asking you for many, many thousands of pounds per month that needs to be increased-

Greg Everett 40:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:38 ... because of the rent on your gym and other stuff like that. Um, and there's two ways that I think about it. One is aim to create a business in an industry that is as insulated as possible, like a hermetically sealed business in which-

Greg Everett 40:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:53 ... you have as few external stakeholders as possible. And then the other side of it is when you see these people and they're fantastic and they're doing really, really well, but remember that the su- massive success of their business does not come with the same level of discomfort as the guy that owns the delicatessen or the butcher's shop around the corner-

Greg Everett 41:13 Right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:13 ... because that person has to deal with more stakeholders, and that is where, as a business owner, someone that wants to make things happen and do them correctly, that's where so much of the discomfort lies.

Greg Everett 41:24 Yeah. Well, and that's, that was one of the big decisions I made with, with Katalyst Athletics, my own company, is, uh, a number of years back, there was a very clear fork in the road where I could've gone full-blown corporate, brought on a lot more employees, got the big media team, all these things, uh, and it would've expanded the business and potentially made it more profitable, but m- m- the dilemma was, I don't want that. I don't want to be a manager. I want to be a content producer. I want to be a coach first and foremost. Um, I don't need the added stress of more overhead and, you know, a bigger ship takes longer to steer and, you know, all these things. Um, I got the little rowboat, man. I can turn on a dime whenever I want. So I, I sacrificed some of that potential top end in terms of profitability in, in, in spread, but I have more than enough of both of those things, and I retain that complete ownership, that complete control, and that complete, uh, enjoyment of what I'm doing, and I don't have to depend on other people and take on that added stress that I don't need. If I'm gonna be stressed, it's because, uh, I'm struggling to, you know, produce something that meets my standards, not because I'm waiting on someone else and I know they're not gonna meet my standards or, you know, whatever the case is. And so that, that's been, like, the best decision I ever made when it comes to business.

Chris Williamson 42:52 I'm glad to hear that. I've got a lot of friends, I think, who...... have big desires for where they want their companies or corporations to end up, and I always ask, especially when they're talking about growth and levels of revenue and stuff like that, especially if it's a big number. If they're talking about, "Yeah, man, well, we're going to try and sort of hit 10 mil top line next year," I'm like, "In the nicest way possible, man, like how much is enough?"

Greg Everett 43:17 (laughs) Right.

Chris Williamson 43:18 Like how- how- how much money do you need? And I'm all for growth, and I love these inspirational stories about people that are able to make unbelievable apps or products or services that are worth millions and millions of pounds. That's fantastic. But at what point is the diseconomy of scale being paid by you in terms of stress?

Greg Everett 43:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:41 Um, and I think that's a question that it's quite uncool to ask.

Greg Everett 43:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:46 Because in a meritocracy that values where people get to, and you've got quantifiable metrics of the fortunes, 100 most rich people in the world, and how many followers have you got on Instagram, it's not very cool to say that you're satisfied. Um-

Greg Everett 44:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:03 ... but that doesn't mean that you're settling. It just means that you know what is-

Greg Everett 44:07 No, not at all.

Chris Williamson 44:08 ... what is enough.

Greg Everett 44:12 Yeah. Well, and that- and that comes right back to the character and values thing. And when we do our self-evaluation, uh, I make the point in the book that self-evaluation should be concerned with only two things, and that is your own values and the- the goals that you have set for yourself based on those values. There should not be any metrics of self-evaluation that involve comparison to other people or other standards, because that's how you pull yourself away from what's actually meaningful to yourself. So, that is the perfect example. Like, "Well, I- I've got to clear 10 million a year, or I'm not successful." But what is that actually going to get to you? Like, speaking of Ben Bergeron, you know, he does the five whys, like, "Well, I want to- I want to clear 10 million a year." Why? Uh, because the- and like, once you start actually looking into it, you're like, "Well, I don't know why. It's kind of a stupid metric." Like, it's just this thing that sounds like a good idea because that's what everyone else is doing. You know, "I want 500 million followers on Instagram." Like, why? Like, is that going to actually make you content? Uh, you know, I- I want that little blue check on Instagram, but only because they've been dogging me for so long and it drives me nuts. Uh, but it's not actually going to make me happy. You know what I mean? Like, I think somehow I offended somebody at Instagram years ago and now they're just-

Chris Williamson 45:31 (laughs)

Greg Everett 45:31 ... they're just doing it to mess with me.

Chris Williamson 45:33 To spite you. That's funny, man.

Greg Everett 45:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:36 Yeah. I, um, I genuinely believe that you can inculcate this. You can habituate reminding yourself that you're being pulled away from your core values. And until you've done them, you'll never know when it's happening.

Greg Everett 45:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:51 But in the same way as when you realize that you've become lost in thought, if you've spent a bit of time meditating and you realize, "Hang on, I was dreaming but awake there. I was lost in thought without knowing that I was lost in thought." That is what it is to be dreaming while you're still awake. And the same thing can occur when-

Greg Everett 46:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:11 ... you get this compulsion. I often get it when looking on Instagram. There's a lot of people from the UK that are out in Dubai at the moment because they fled before the lockdown kicked in, and they're having this great time out in Dubai.

Greg Everett 46:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:23 So I get jealous about my buddies that I see out there that are doing this thing. But then I just ask him- ask myself, "Hang on, why- why would you want to be there? Like, what is it that you're missing?" And as you start to dig into it, you realize, well, hang on, all of the things that I value for my short and medium-term goals are here, right here, right now. And that's why you made the decision to be in the UK. So it doesn't matter, but because we have this system one thinking, this impulsive, just reactionary way that it's, I want that. Why? Why do you want that? Well, he's got it.

Greg Everett 46:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:59 That is a fucking stupid reason to want anything, because he's got it or she's doing it. Like-

Greg Everett 47:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:04 ... and the more that we can assess our assumptions, the more that we can act intentionally. And until you've got your values in, you don't know when you're being drawn away, but you can habituate it. You notice or you feel when the texture of your mind is starting to be drawn away from the- the course and the path that you are on. And when you start to get drawn away, you go, "There's that thing again. There's that thing."

Greg Everett 47:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:28 "There's that thing that just pulls me away." And then you can just return back to what you're doing. Man, it is so liberating. It's so... and it, you know, it happens. I do it like 1% of the time that I should do it, but with the- that 1%, it feels like such a victory.

Greg Everett 47:43 Hey, that's- that's 1% more than most of us do it. And so a big part of that is, is recognizing that that feeling you get when you see those, the pictures of everyone partying in Dubai while you're back at home in the- in the rain.

Chris Williamson 47:56 (laughs)

Greg Everett 47:56 Uh, you know, it's- it's an emotional reaction, right? And it's- it's a, it's not a primary emotion, it's a secondary emotion. It- it's like that jealousy, or- or envy, or resentment, or the- these really, uh, gross, unhelpful feelings that we get. And if we can recognize that and step back and say, well, like you said, "Why am I feeling this way?" We recognize, well, for no good reason at all, so I'm going to go ahead and put that aside and remind myself what I'm doing. And you know, having that a- ability to, uh, take a look at your own life, recognize what's important to you truly, but then also have that sense of- of gratitude and recognizing, "Okay, well, I'm not in Dubai getting drunk, uh, with my buddies, but this is what I am doing. And man, I am extremely grateful for these opportunities I have," and- and whatever the case is. And that really keeps you grounded and focused on what's important versus, like you said, constantly getting pulled in a- you know, infinity directions at 1,000 miles an hour of all these things that you're not doing.... well, okay. The world not doing a lot of things. We're, we're, we're not doing a lot more than we are doing, but what we are doing is important to us and that's what we should be focused on.

Chris Williamson 49:14 I love that, man. I absolutely love that. Talking about commitment, this is the delivery mechanism for everything that we've spoken about up until now. You can have the best core values in the world, you can have your capability, you can do a handstand and climb El Capitan, but-

Greg Everett 49:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:30 ... if you're not prepared to actually do the work, nothing matters at all. And-

Greg Everett 49:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:37 ... I think that a lot of people who enjoy listening to podcasts like this one, who like reading, who like personal growth and self-development, the hurdle that many peoples get stuck at is action, is taking-

Greg Everett 49:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:51 ... action. How can people take more action? How can they be more committed?

Greg Everett 49:57 Funny you use that word, because at the end of every chapter of that book there's an action section, and it is practical steps. And that was, that was critical for me because nothing drives me crazier than (laughs) a self-help book that's just purely philosophical. And so here's how you, how you should see the world and good luck actually implementing that and, uh, of course everyone throws the book to the side of the, the bed and goes back to normal. Um, so first and foremost again is once you figure out who you are, what's important to you, what you want to achieve, now you have to determine what the actual practical steps are, and most of that is going to be, um, conscious development of habits and routines that support those things. Right? So we do not have the brain capacity to make that many conscious, willful decisions every day in our lives. That's just a fact, uh, of, of the human brain. And I, you know, depending on, on the source you read, it's 40% to 60% of the things we do in a day are habit. Uh, we're not consciously deciding. Like, when we get dressed in the morning, we're not thinking like, "Okay, put my left leg through my pants, and then I put my right leg," and, y- you know, w- it's, we just do it. And so we need to create more routines like that that are, uh, conducive to where we want to go. So, for example, uh, simple stuff like putting your phone on do not disturb and leaving it in another room while you're supposed to be working. Right? We sit there and we work for three minutes and then we check Instagram, like something important must have happened in the last three minutes. Like, it, there, it can't just be a bunch of more nonsense that I saw earlier. Um, and so developing things like that that set you up for success and, and help you prevent blocking yourself from these things that you want to achieve. Uh, you know, reading every night before you go to sleep, uh, doing some kind of morning journal routine, uh, meditating or, or, you know, breath work. Things like that where you, you create these habits and routines, um, that then continue to provide you the structure, the foundation, to reach farther i- i- with the more ambitious things that you want to accomplish and, and who you want to become. That's really the, the most critical part of it. It's not necessarily saying like, "Oh, I gotta get, uh, you know, super committed to this long-term goal of, of, uh, you know, making it to, to the, the, the South Pole." Right? It's more like, "Well, what do I need to do day to day that's going to change my life in a way that allows me to work toward that goal, uh, without constant disruption?" And that's what most of us are missing. We, we, we kind of skip over the basic stuff and just look for these really lofty goals, and then we're constantly disappointed because we don't meet them, because our day-to-day life makes it impossible.

Chris Williamson 52:49 What would you say to someone who's really struggling with commitment at the moment, or quote unquote motivation? They feel like they're built for more, they feel like they have some potential inside of them, but when they promise themselves they're gonna get up at 6:00 AM the next morning-

Greg Everett 53:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:04 ... they always hit snooze. When they say that they're going to stick to the diet, they never do. When they're going to go to the gym, they always miss it. How would you advise that person?

Greg Everett 53:13 So two, two things. Number one is you have to associate the behaviors you're trying to implement with your values. Right? Y- you have to make that connection, because so many of us look at motivation like it's this ... W- we conflate motivation with enthusiasm, where if we say like, "Well, I don't feel like going to the gym and, and training. Oh, I'm not motivated." Well, no, you're probably motivated still but you're not enthusiastic, 'cause it's hard and you're tired and you got things on your mind. But if you can remember what's the, what's the actual motivation, and that might be that you want to get healthier so you can play with your kids or your grandkids, maybe that you need to get in better shape so that you can do that big climb or whatever the case is. And so always having that, you know, the, the actual driving purpose in mind to associate with the behavior, but then also you can start with, uh, what Charles Duhigg in his book, The Power of Habit called keystone habits. And so these are things that, uh, you know, relatively small habits that support the development of other good habits and more discipline. And so this is, you know, the, the typical classic one is make your bed in the morning, which I'll admit I don't do. That one for me doesn't mean anything, but that's been helpful for a lot of people where it's like this one little thing that they can control and they can easily create a habit out of, um, and then it, it, it essentially fuels that sense of ability, that confidence. Well, I do actually have control over myself. And it's, as he says, kind of the accumulation of small wins. And that, uh, bolsters enthusiasm and that pushes that drive to continue to do the bigger and bigger things. But again, it's really critical to understand the why and then to start, you know, it with those smaller things and build from there rather than trying to skip ahead to step 10 when you haven't even done step one yet.... a, a, because that time you, you constantly get on that, uh, hamster wheel and you're, you're just never actually making progress. You're just constantly, you, you know, being disappointed in yourself and, "Well, I don't have the discipline, I'm not good enough, I can't do it," versus like, "Hey, I made my bed for 10 days in a row now. What's next? I'm gonna add on the next layer. Now I'm gonna start waking up 20 minutes earlier every day for the next two weeks, then 45 minutes, so now I have time, I'm used to it. Now I can get to the gym in the morning without feeling like a zombie and hating my life." And so it's, it's just the, the incremental progress I think is key.

Chris Williamson 55:46 One of the things that I think is so insidious about waking up at the wrong time, and this is something I battled with for ages, 'cause working shifts is technically-

Greg Everett 55:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:53 ... which is what a club promoter does, you know, getting in at 3:00 in the morning, inevitably my sleeping pattern was thrown off. And for anybody out there, the nurses and the taxi drivers and the, the people that do night shift in, in petrol stations and stuff like that, um, I feel for you because i- it's, it's savage, and you don't realize just how important not hitting snooze is. Like as soon as I banned myself from-

Greg Everett 56:15 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:15 ... hitting the snooze button, because it's the first thing, it is the actual first thing before your day's begun, you've already-

Greg Everett 56:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:22 ... said, "I'm going to let today beat me." And hitting the snooze button is like saying, "I hate waking up so much that I'm going to do it multiple times per day."

Greg Everett 56:32 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:33 That's what hitting the snooze button is. Um, and that, making your bed just tiny, you're totally right, little wins on a morning, what are some tiny little things, you can do a five-minute walk, like around the block-

Greg Everett 56:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:46 ... around the, the, the little greenbelt next to your house, just those, because it makes you feel like you're in control of the day. And the commitment-

Greg Everett 56:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:54 ... there I think is important. And then, I mean, uh, coming from a weightlifting background, everything that we've talked about today is in some form or another progressive overload. It really is king.

Greg Everett 57:05 Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:05 It's king in everything. It's king in reading, in meditating, in learning to do a world championship snatch or clean-and-jerk.

Greg Everett 57:15 Yeah. And that is, you know, that goes back to the, uh, the idea of dosing with the challenges and things like that, and with the habit building, and the, just to reiterate the point about starting in the morning with those habits, that is key too, because that sets the tone for the rest of the day. Right? If you, i- if the first thing you do in the morning is that new habit you're trying to develop, you're already off to a good start, whereas if the first thing you do in the morning is hit snooze and go back to bed, you've already showed yourself that you're not able to do it. I had a roommate in college who was terrible at getting up, and he would put his alarm clock outside of his bedroom-

Chris Williamson 57:53 (laughs)

Greg Everett 57:54 ... so he could hear it and he would have to get up out of his bed to go turn it off, because by then you're up, right?

Chris Williamson 58:01 Yeah.

Greg Everett 58:01 You're not as likely to get back in bed. Of course it used to drive me nuts, uh, you know, because we both worked on an ambulance at that time, so we would work 24s, uh, and then I would work graveyard dispatching shift 11:00 to 7:00, and so it was a mess, uh, with the sleep situation, but that's what it took for him to figure out how to get out of bed in the morning. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:21 Man. Yeah, I-

Greg Everett 58:22 So get creative, you know? Do what it takes to get that start.

Chris Williamson 58:25 I know. I, um, I have two alarm clocks and one of them is right there, which is far enough away from bed and right next to the curtains so I can drag those open.

Greg Everett 58:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:33 So I've got a, I've got a similar strategy. Putting it outside of the room is, is another level of extreme. I can't believe there's these mats-

Greg Everett 58:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:40 ... that you can buy, these alarm clocks that are mats and you stand on them and they have to have your feet stood on them for a certain amount of time to force-

Greg Everett 58:48 Oh.

Chris Williamson 58:48 ... to, to, to turn them off. I'm like, "I mean, that is just the same as putting your alarm over the far side of the room." But fair play to them for finding a niche in the market for people who want to be upright for 30 seconds before they can turn their alarm off or whatever it is.

Greg Everett 59:01 I've never heard of that, but that's kind of smart from a business perspective at least. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:04 There's another one, another one that's like a really simple Rubik's cube and-

Greg Everett 59:09 Ugh.

Chris Williamson 59:10 ... you're supposed to do the Rubik's cube, so you have to be sufficiently cognizant to turn this alarm off.

Greg Everett 59:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:16 But you can imagine if you had a particularly bad day and you wake up and you're just defeated by some Rubik's cube and your alarm's just going off, it's gonna end up out of the window.

Greg Everett 59:25 Oh yeah. Eh, yeah, it's gonna get smashed under my foot for sure.

Chris Williamson 59:29 (laughs)

Greg Everett 59:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:30 So what about parting thoughts from this, man? Obviously we've gone through a lot today, the, the four Cs. If there was a fifth C, would you have put, would you have put another, another chapter in? Was there anything that you left out?

Greg Everett 59:44 Uh, I mean, there's always stuff that you leave out. Uh, I, I don't, there was not enough that I felt required getting it into the book, but I, I do think that is, I think that the way I approach most of the stuff I write is that it's, it's a, it, a jumping off point, right? And so these are, this is a, uh, a foundation, it's a place to get started. There's a lot more to do, there's a lot more to think about, there's a lot more to talk about, but this is what's gonna kind of get you going. Uh, but I kind of saw that as really a result of the four Cs, right? That's what you develop and, and that, that includes kind of that sense of peace, um, that sense of security that we feel that we're all really looking for and, and actually being, feeling safe and secure and satisfied with our own lives, uh, versus constantly, you, you know, feeling uncertain and, uh, and anxious and worried about what's to come. And so I think that is really the ultimate goal is, is finding that really sense, uh, o- of, of inner peace with our lives, what we do, and who we are. But then none of those are Cs, so I have to go with confidence.

Chris Williamson 1:00:51 (laughs)

Greg Everett 1:00:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:54 I love that, man. I, um, I wrote in a newsletter recently about what confidence actually is, and it's the belief that your abilities will match the required abilities of you, and you-... giving a-

Greg Everett 1:01:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 ... a public talk, you very well may be a little bit nervous beforehand, because you don't know if what you are being asked to do is what you can do. But doing your washing up is, you're not even gonna think about confidence-

Greg Everett 1:01:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:23 ... because you've done it a million times before, and it's not going to be too much of a concern.

Greg Everett 1:01:25 I'm really good at that.

Chris Williamson 1:01:26 I'm awesome at doing it as well, actually. And, yeah, I think a lot of the time what people think they want when they talk about confidence is this extroversion charisma, this sort of outgoing bravado. They're kind of flamboyant, and they, they've got all of this sort of fancy moves. Everything's done with a twist. Like, even wa- even-

Greg Everett 1:01:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:47 ... washing the plates up is done with, like, a 360 spin. Um-

Greg Everett 1:01:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:51 And that's not, that's not what they mean. They just mean, "I want to feel comfortable, that-"

Greg Everett 1:01:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 "... I can do the things that are required of me." And it, it really does seem like the four Cs that you've given before that would build up to, um, to give someone a, a firm foundation, as you say, a starting off point. So, Tough-

Greg Everett 1:02:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:09 ... Building True Mental, Physical, and Emotional Toughness for Success and Fulfillment will be linked in the show notes below, and catalystathletics.com if people want to get 1,000-plus articles and videos on how to lift everything.

Greg Everett 1:02:24 Spend the rest of your life happily perusing that website.

Chris Williamson 1:02:26 Watching your face over and over and over again.

Greg Everett 1:02:31 Yeah. Well, I don't know if you want to do that for the rest of your life, but it's available if you do.

Chris Williamson 1:02:35 (laughs) And @GregEverett on Instagram? Or @catalystathletics?

Greg Everett 1:02:41 Uh, it's @catalystathletics, and also, um, @becomingtough is, uh, the account for that book, so that will have excerpts and audio clips and things like that, for those who are curious.

Chris Williamson 1:02:53 Perfect. I love it, man. Thank you so much for coming on.

Greg Everett 1:02:55 I appreciate you having me. <<Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-odds. Oh-oh-oh-oh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Odd odds.>>