Modern WisdomHow To Truly Build Toughness - Greg Everett | Modern Wisdom Podcast 300
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,719 words- 0:00 – 0:25
Survival as a model for toughness: Steven Callahan’s 76 days at sea
- GEGreg Everett
... he gets seen by a fishing boat finally, after 76 days, and he's so dialed in and, like, accepting of his situation that when the guys come to save him, he goes, "No, no, no, you guys go ahead and finish fishing and then pick me up when you're done." So he literally sat there and waited for these guys to finish their day of fishing, just waited in this raft. He's like, "Hey, 76 days, what's another six to eight hours?" (wind blows)
- 0:25 – 1:40
Common misconceptions: toughness isn’t masculinity, aggression, or dominance
- CWChris Williamson
What do most people have wrong about toughness? What is it not?
- GEGreg Everett
Uh, well, what... I think the, the biggest common, uh, mistake people make is that it's... we see it as being, uh, a masculine quality or somehow inherently related to manhood or, or the, the condition of being a man. Um, and I spend a lot of time in that early on in the book, really breaking it down and explaining what exactly being tough truly is. And it has nothing to do with sex, gender, or any of these things. They are totally independent elements, uh, that anybody can attain with the proper, you know, work and understanding. Um, and the, the, the, kind of the secondary part of that is that it is associated a lot of the times with kind of violence or aggression or, uh, that, that sort of, um, need to demonstrate our ability or our superiority over others. And again, totally unrelated to what being tough truly is. Uh, but we, we have these associations in our minds, especially based on our past experiences with people who claim to be tough or whom others tell us are tough, which is often far, far off the mark.
- 1:40 – 4:10
Why toughness became trendy: comfort culture and recurring “midlife crises”
- CWChris Williamson
There's been a recent, I would say in the last five years I've noticed quite strongly, a surge in content around fortitude and resilience and toughness, and people like David Goggins are being really upheld and cold showers are becoming a thing and, you know... W- why do you think people are drawn toward a discussion about toughness in 2021?
- GEGreg Everett
I think because you simultaneously have it becoming less of a normal trait for people than it used to be, but more and more necessary for us to get through our lives now, and those things are related, certainly. Uh, y- you look back at, say, like, my grandfather's generation, uh, going through the Great Depression, World War II, uh, these sorts of things where, you know, my grandparents grew up on farms. They were dirt poor. Uh, there were traits that you developed as a child growing up in a situation like that, that, you know, a lot of people still do in, in, you know, both of our countries of course, but where it wasn't this thing that you sought out, it was just something that naturally you developed because there was no other choice. You wanna eat? Well, you better figure out how to eat, and it's gonna take some work. Versus my daughter's generation, like, "Hey, I wanna eat." They boop, boop, boop, and someone delivers food to their door 20 minutes later while they're sitting there watching, you know, 15,000 different shows on TV. Uh, so it's, it's this totally different experience that we're having in our lives, and I think what's happening is that more and more of us are recognizing that there is something missing, that we're... there's an absence of experience, um, and, uh, you know, a, a sense of fulfillment and contentment and accomplishment because we're not required to engage in things that are difficult and demanding and require commitment, um, a- and, and an understanding of who we truly are and what's important to us. So we're kind of just flailing around, uh, searching for ways to entertain ourselves and distract ourselves, which temporarily is satisfying, but in the long term kind of leaves us having a, a, you know, a continual series of midlife crises, right? So instead of having one midlife crisis like the olden days, now we have one every five years where it's like, "What have we been doing? What do I wanna do? Who am I? This is awful."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GEGreg Everett
Uh, and so I, I think that's why it's becoming more and more of a popular topic.
- 4:10 – 4:17
Defining ‘true toughness’: the Four Cs framework
- CWChris Williamson
How do you define toughness then? What, what is it? If that's what it's not, what is it?
- 4:17 – 7:40
Character: identity security, validation traps, and ego stories
- GEGreg Everett
So I break it down into four, uh, elements. The first one is character, and that is simply what is your identity? And, and the corollary to that is, are you secure in that identity? So who are you and what is important to you? What's meaningful to you? Um, because without that, that, that's your guide for every decision you make. And so many of us are just absolutely clueless when it comes to who we actually are. Uh, a lot of us have stories in our minds that we've been telling ourselves about who we are for our entire lives, uh, most of the time very far from accurate. Uh, but that's kind of what props up our egos and makes us believe that we have this kind of dialed in and figured out. Um, and the security in that identity is key too, because so many of us are totally insecure in who we are, and that's why we have so many of us, uh, you know, constantly on the search for recognition and appreciation and, and credit and, uh, you know, th- these desperate pleas for validation. L- you know, look at social media every day. It's just, it's sad, honestly. Um, and so much of it is unconscious. Like, people are not setting out every day like, "I need someone to tell me I'm, I'm strong and pretty." Uh, but that's what it is. And, and, and without that security, we end up with the, you know, those kind of, uh, behaviors and also, you know, the ridiculous unnecessary competition and the one-upmanship and all these things that just drive ridiculous behavior and prevent us from accomplishing anything actually meaningful, uh, long term. Uh, next you have capability, which is, uh, not just physical ability, uh, and physical traits and skills, but knowledge. It's, and it's y- your... We need to garner this through the accumulation of very broad, uh, experiences, novel experiences and learning, you know, collecting more and more tools, uh, physically, mentally, uh, emotionally, and learning how to succeed through different situations, unpredictable situations, and gaining the confidence that comes along with, uh, successfully experiencing such things. Um-... next, we have, uh, capacity, which is what, you know, most people think of as resilience, but I distinguish this from resilience in that, you know, resilience technically is a return to your original condition following some kind of adversity or trauma, right? So that, to me, the analogy is storm comes, you go downstairs, you ride it out in the cellar, you wait for it to clear up, you go back and just resume your life. That's resilience. That's good, right? We're not getting destroyed by it. But what I want is to use those experiences, that adversity, hardship, challenge, to, to develop further, to become stronger, more intelligent, more engaged with the world, uh, to view, to add to that toolbox, to get more experience using th- those tools in, in, in unique, novel ways. Um, and then finally is commitment, and this encompasses, uh, you know, discipline, uh, habit building, routine, these sorts of things, and this is really what brings all of the previous three together. Because without the commitment to it, the rest are just kind of a private fantasy, right? You... This is the story we're telling ourselves, "Well, I am, I am resilient, and I am capable." But if we don't actually put those things into use during meaningful, significant, uh, experiences, then we're not those things. We either have the potential to be those things, or we're just lying to ourselves. Uh, and so that, that's what kind of wraps it all up, and that's how we create that life.
- 7:40 – 9:10
Is character built or revealed? Turning self-awareness into change
- CWChris Williamson
Going back to character, do you think it's built or revealed? Is character something that's innate, or is it something that we have to construct?
- GEGreg Everett
Uh, I don't think it's innate, although I do think obviously we have, uh, much of it is built without our participation early on in life, right? It's, you know, through our influences, our parents, our family, our friends, our teachers, coaches, whatever. Um, and so, you know, when you're six years old, you're not conscious of the development of your character unless you're some kind of, you know, genius, prodigy kid. But, uh, so because of that, there's always opportunities for character to be revealed, for us to experience something that forces us to look at who we are at present. But at the same time, I do think we have, you know, uh, uh, complete ability to determine who we are, to decide our character, uh, to figure out what then, you know, the behavior, the speech, the ways of thinking then support that identity, and then to make those changes in our lives to reflect it. So, it's, it's a, you know, a dialectical process where maybe we experience something, we see, "Wow, this is who I am. It is not who I believed I was. It is not who I want to be. So who do I want to be? And now, more importantly, how do I actually make that true? What do I need to change in my life? How do I need to behave and think and speak in order to actually become that person rather than just thinking this is who I would like to be?"
- CWChris Williamson
Man, the more that I look at learning-
- GEGreg Everett
(clears throat)
- 9:10 – 11:10
Core values: why most people never clarify them (and why it matters)
- CWChris Williamson
... about character and personal values and why are you here, looking at the core reasons for you being on the planet, I don't think that there's a more important question that anyone should be asking themselves.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It took me until I was 31 to do, sit down and actually work out the five core values that my life is built upon, which is mental.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How did I get through 18 years of full-time education, two degrees, including a master's, and no one ever said, "Why are you here?" Like, "What, what, what's the reason that you're here?" I'd done it for businesses. So, the young-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... entrepreneurs that are listening who've sat down and said, "Right. Okay, so let's talk about the brand values that we've got," while the people sat around the table haven't got their own values organized.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah. It's bizarre. And, and, and th- what's more bizarre is that, as you said, they can be completely, uh, unaware of the ridiculousness of that situation, where they're putting so much effort into, "What, what is meaningful to my business," right? Like the business is this living entity that has its own values. It's like, no, those are your values expressed through your company, so, like, why (laughs) , why would you not do this for yourself? That... It's, it's bananas.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, man. It's, um... It, it really is, I think... It's one of the big changing points, a big inflection point that you have when you actually sit down and do that exercise. And I've been banging on-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... about this for, for the last year or so. Everyone that's listening will be familiar with this. But for the people that haven't already decided to do this exercise, I implore you, whether it's through Greg's book, Tough, which will be linked in the show notes below, or Taylor Pearson's, uh, Core Values exercise, which you can get online, or whatever it is, like, you need to do it. What was life like for you before and after? Was there something that, where you realized, "Right, I need to sit down and get my core values in order," or w- have you always had them set?
- 11:10 – 13:35
Greg’s personal turning point: insecurity, chameleon identity, and addiction
- GEGreg Everett
Oh, no (laughs) . D- definitely have not, uh, had myself sorted out always. Uh, it, it's been... It's been a, a, a continual series of, of events that have kind of nudged me in, in various directions. And, um, it, it is something certainly that is ongoing, right? So even if you do sit down, you figure out your values today, um, those things are very likely going to evolve over time based on new experiences, new interactions with different people and, and new demands, things like that. Uh, but so, I mean, really early on in life for me, uh, I, I struggled very much. I was a really, uh, self-conscious, insecure kid, and, and, uh, was... I mean, I don't think I had any solid identity. I, I was the chameleon, right? Where I was popular because I could be whoever I needed to be in any group, any situation. And that works great when you're 16, 17. You know what I mean? Uh, you can get whatever girlfriend you want, right? Because you're always the right guy. Uh, and you, you know, you have these friends, and, and... But when you get a little older, you recognize, "Well, this isn't gonna get me very far. You know, I'm unhappy. Th- none of this stuff is working for me." And, and so my personal experience ear- early on was I had, uh, a huge drug problem, right? Um, and so by the time I hit, you know, at 19, 20 years old, I was...... that was the, the f- I think the first big thing where I was forced to step back and say, "Is this actually who I want to be? Am I willing to continue down this road?" Um, you know, and I had good friends who had s- you know, serious drug addiction problems. I had friends who died, I had friends who were getting arrested, these things, sorts of things. So it wasn't, it wasn't a purely conceptual exercise for me. It was, like, very clear what my potential paths were. And so that was the first thing where I really had to take a step back and be like, "I need to figure myself out." And it, it wasn't a straightforward quick thing. It took, you know, a number of years to get through that. But, uh, I think since then, what I learned was how critical that, uh, that ability to be self-reliant and independent and know exactly who I was and what was meaningful to me, because that was what was driving all of my decisions. And without that, again, like I said earlier, you're just kind of flailing around, uh, being discontent for the rest of your life.
- 13:35 – 17:53
After values: self-monitoring, resisting inertia, and skepticism of personality tests
- CWChris Williamson
Let's say that someone does go through their core values and work out why they're here or they, they have a good concrete idea of that, but what's next? Like, just 'cause you've got your values written down on a piece of paper somewhere, that doesn't really mean anything.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah. Well, what's next is the continual self-monitoring, right? And so, being, being aware of what you're doing and, and being willing and able to ask yourself with all these decisions you're making, "Does re- this reflect who I am and what's important to me?" Because so much of, of what we do in a given day is, is habitual, right? We, we, we continue to do these behaviors because we've always done them. It's, they're so well ingrained. And so much of the time those things are discordant with what we actually want to achieve or who we want to be. Uh, and so if we don't address that, we kind of just remain on that same course just through inertia. Um, and so when we get to these various, uh, you know, inflection points or, or forks in the road where we have to actually make a conscious decision, we have to fall back on these things, fall back on the identity and our values to make those decisions to ensure that they are in harmony with what is actually meaningful to us. Because so much of, uh, uh, so many of us are, are just driven by, uh, convention or tradition or what we are expected to do or what we're told that is, you know, important to us. I mean, look at how many people take personality tests or, or these things that are supposed to tell us who we are and what we want, and then, you know, I, I, I'm very, very dubious about the accuracy and the value of those things. And, and so much so because once you have decided, "Okay, well this is, this is my personality. I took a test in Cosmo or whatever. Uh, and so now I have to, you know, match all of my decisions and behaviors to this." Well, that's the same thing as not knowing who you are, because that's very likely not who you are. It's just that now you feel like you have this structure, but it's still leading you down a path that is not going to deliver you, uh, repeatedly as it should to a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction.
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting one. I had Dr. Benjamin Hardy on the show, uh, discussing his book, Personality Isn't Permanent about a year ago, and he was-
- GEGreg Everett
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... incredibly critical of pretty much every different personality test except for the big five. And his reason for not being critical of the big five was because you're not put into a type with the big five.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They don't say that you're a green or an MBTI or a, a, a classic-
- GEGreg Everett
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... classic sparkly dragon or a new age sparkly dragon-
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... whatever it is. Like that, it doesn't give you a category that, that he feels constrains people. Um, but yeah, man, uh, uh, looking at the way that character relates to capability, capacity, and commitment, it seems to me that character needs to be there to form the foundation. That everything else can be built upon very, very shaky, um, underpinnings if you don't actually understand why you're here and what you're doing. As mutual friend Ben Bergeron talks about, he says, "You can spend a lifetime climbing a ladder only to realize it's put up against the wrong wall." And-
- GEGreg Everett
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, Greg McKeown told me this story about when some executive, high, high flying executive at some massive media company he'd been working at for years and years and he'd sacrificed family time, he'd been doing 18-hour days five days a week for 20 years, and he finally gets to the top. And he speaks to Greg and he says, "Man, my son won't talk to me. My 19-year-old son won't talk to me. Like, I don't have-"
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... a relationship with my son because I've never spent any time with him. My family's in tatters and all that I want now is to have a family life. I've got all the way to the peak of this world that I thought I wanted and look at what's happened. Like, I don't-"
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... I don't want this." So you can very, very quickly put yourself in the wrong direction if you haven't got this sorted. Um, so we've got, we've got character. In the book there are some core values exercises that peoples can go through and will help to give them some clarity on that. Moving on to capability, it's what are you able to do, right? That's your capacity-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is your ability to deal with things, your capability is what you're able to do.
- 17:53 – 21:07
Capability: build real confidence through broad, novel experience
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah. And this is such a, a large umbrella, right? This is really all-encompassing. Again, not just skill and physical ability like, you know, strength, endurance, whatever, but, but the knowledge. And this is so much predicated on experience, novel experience, varied experience. Uh, because so many of us are, are really stuck in this very narrow bandwidth of life experience where we, we have our profession, we have our specialty, we have our narrow set of interests. Uh, we all watch pretty much the same handful of TV shows. We all look at the same Instagram accounts. Uh, I mean, you look at, again, going back to my daughter's generation, they all talk exactly the same. Where when I was growing up, it was regional.... right? So where I was from, people spoke one way, and then, you know, other side of the state, they spoke a little bit differently. And now it's like every- everyone is so tied together across the world that it's just so homogenous. Um, and so we have to break out of that a- and, and go into peripheral realms, not just for the sake of learning what's out there, but w- understanding that the things that you learn outside of your specialty and, and your area of, of comfort and expertise will contribute to your expertise, will contribute to your specialty. And you don't know how it will because you haven't ever experienced it. There- it's unpredictable. Um, but also the- a, a huge part of that too is we, we very much overestimate our abilities when we never get outside the area in which we're already comfortable, and we develop this, this false sense of confidence, um, that, that can harm us anytime we are forced to step out of there. Whereas if we're constantly seeking out novel experiences and, and, uh, you know, developing the abilities to successfully deal with them, now we're building legitimate confidence. We're, we're creating not just the ability to handle things that are unpredictable and different, but we're developing the confidence that we can, right? And the more of those experiences we have where we successfully deal with things that we haven't dealt with before, the more we recognize, you know, our ability to, to take care of ourselves, to, uh, to handle the unpredictable, to handle adversity. And so we start chipping away at th- that very natural sense of i- intimidation and fear and anxiety that people experience when, you know, they have to en- en- encounter things that they are not already comfortable with. And that just... Think about how much of life opens up to you when you have that attitude and that mindset and that confidence. Um, what's that movie, Yes Man with Jim Carrey, where he just has to say yes to everything? You don't want to go too crazy, right? Like you have to be- work within reason there. But that's the idea is, is rather than finding reasons to avoid things because they're scary or intimidating or you, you've never done them before, uh, you know, get out there and dip your toe in the water at least and, and, and see what's going on. Because chances are you're gonna discover things that are wildly enjoyable, but also beneficial to what your primary focus is.
- 21:07 – 25:13
From low confidence to progress: dose challenges and create waypoints
- CWChris Williamson
The interesting thing about capability is that someone's confidence is actually the limiting factor on it. When you think about, "I am able to do this physically or mentally. If you put me in a situation, I'm able to do it." But if your belief is downregulated from that, then that's what you're working off. You're actually working off 80% or 70% or 50% or 10%, you know, of whatever your available amount is. So let's say that there's someone who's listening who is a little bit low on confidence or doesn't have that self-belief. What's something that they can go out and do this week? Or how would you prescribe them some strategies for starting to build that confidence up?
- GEGreg Everett
Well, here's the key thing, and I talk about this a lot actually in the capacity, uh, section of the book. But this is like any other physical training, where your challenges and the exercises you're doing, um, to this end have to be appropriately designed and dosed. So for example, like if you want to... You say, "I, I want to go, uh, learn how to rock climb. I've never done it before. I've never set protection. I've never been on a rope." Don't go try to climb El Capitan next week, right? You're gonna die. You're gonna have a bad time. Uh, instead, you know, go do something small. Go do some bouldering, go do some top roping with someone who's experienced. Um, and so these things have to be very individual. They need to be, uh, uh... Initially, of course, they should interest us to some degree ideally, but they should be related somehow to our lifestyle, our needs, you know, in terms of our profession, uh, and our locality, because those are the, the abilities we want to develop first. Those are our priorities, what's critical for us day to day. Um, but then you have to determine, okay, what's my starting point? Because my starting point is very different from your starting point in any given endeavor, uh, because our experiences and our knowledge is different, right? So for someone who's an experienced rock climber, maybe they- their next challenge is to, you know, free climb the nose of El Cap, uh, whereas, you know, I haven't climbed in 23 years. I'm not getting near that. No, I won't even walk to the base of that thing right now. Uh, so it- this can be literally anything, and s- and for some people it's gonna be as, as seemingly simple and mild as, um, getting past the anxiety and going to the grocery store by themselves. I mean, that can literally be a huge challenge for some of us. It was for me, uh, uh, as a, uh, an, an older teenager. I would run out of food every once in a while because I couldn't get myself to go to the store. That's how out of my mind I was with, with self-consciousness and anxiety about it. Um, and so it's, it's about sitting down and figuring out, where do I want to go? Now, how do I break those things down into smaller and smaller and more manageable pieces? Where do I start? What's step one out of 1,000 or whatever it is? Um, and so I don't have specific prescriptions for that. It's more of a- of guidance on how do you determine what's important to you, what you need to work on? And now let's figure out what's the first step, right? And so I guess what I would say is fi- you can figure out today what is, what is something that I, I, I know that I'm lacking in capability right now? What's something that's holding me back, uh, from what I want to do or who I want to be, I guess is a better way to think of it? And now what's step one in that potentially very protracted process to move me in that direction? And so you create the map and then you create those little waypoints along the way.... to keep you moving in that direction, you know, no matter how, uh, you know, tortuous it may be. It's very, very unlikely to be a, you know, a linear, uh, course, but that's what keeps you on course, uh, and, and gives you those little waypoints, those little landmarks along the way is what stokes your enthusiasm, right? Versus like, "Oh my God, I'm never gonna get this. It's such a huge goal." But each one of those little steps is a, an accomplishment, and that's what kinda keeps propelling you forward with greater and greater momentum.
- 25:13 – 27:46
Foundational life skills and the ‘all toughness is mental’ principle
- CWChris Williamson
What are some capabilities that everyone should have?
- GEGreg Everett
Uh, these things are, uh, and, and some of this sounds silly, I know, but I think it's really important, but like, the ability to drive a manual transmission, right? That, like, this is one of the things, I grew up driving stick shifts and, and I finally got rid of them as I got older 'cause I got lazy, and I got tired of driving through L.A. traffic, you know, stop and go, stop and go, trying to eat a taco, change my shirt all at the same time. But, uh, y- you think, you think, "Oh, well, that's dumb. We don't need that." Okay. What if you are somewhere, your child is seriously injured, you have to get them to a hospital, and the only vehicle available is a manual transmission and you can't drive it? Are you just gonna give up on your kid? So it's like little things like that, you know, you, people say, "Oh, that's so dramatic." Yeah, it's, it's, it's melodramatic until you're in that situation and then you go, "That Greg, he was right." Uh, and now your kid hates you. So, uh, things like that, things like, um, uh, you know, literacy, uh, being capable of, of reading and comprehending things well and being able to absorb information. So many of us, the, the longest thing we read now is a, a Twitter or a tweet or an Instagram caption, and, you know, I look at, um, you know, adults my age. I, I just turned 41, and I, I read emails from people and I'm like, "How have you survived this long w- with, you know, s- so much difficulty with the language?" Like, you're missing out on so much, uh, without developing that, you know, reading more books, writing, even if it's just in a personal journal, developing that ability to articulate and communicate. Um, so there's a long list in the book of, of kind of universal capabilities, but they're, they're primarily about giving us the foundation to be successful versus specific long-term, uh, capabilities, you know, being able to climb El Capitan or whatever. Uh, it- it's more like what, what are the foundational things that allow us to move toward those things long term?
- CWChris Williamson
You've got a quote in that section which I loved which says, "All toughness is ultimately mental in nature regardless of how much the physical body is involved. A hammer can't pound any nails if we never pick it up off the work bench or can't find the nail." Such a good quote.
- GEGreg Everett
Yup. Finding that nail sometimes is the hardest part.
- 27:46 – 35:32
Capacity under adversity: learning from extreme stories without dismissing small battles
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, talking about capacity, I think this is what people believe you're referring to mostly when they talk about toughness, right? Like, resilience to adversity-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... what you're able to withstand.
- GEGreg Everett
Right. Yeah. And that, these are the, these are the really compelling stories that we hear, right? People who survive, like I talk about Steven Callahan in the book survived alone in a life raft on the Atlantic Ocean for 76 days. Um, I mean, that, imagine simply being alone, being unable to communicate with anybody for 76 days, even in the comfort of your own living room. Most of us would go crazy. Like, that, that alone is difficult, but now you've got sharks bumping up under your raft, your raft is leaking, you're getting blown around by storms, getting soaked, you've got sores all over your body from the salt water. Um, that's the kind of story where we, we really are, uh, so enamored with that sort of thing, and so I think that's where we see toughness really standing out. But people forget that, uh, you know, toughness is, is demonstrated on, on an infinite gradient of intensities and durations. And so, we take that example on one end or, you know, Viktor Frankl, you know, surviving his incarceration in a concentration camp during World War II and finding a way, you know, uh, psychologically and spiritually to kind of find that sense of inner peace and freedom. Uh, we look at that, and then we kind of scoff at the, "Oh, pfft, you can't get over yourself and go to the grocery store," sort of thing, but it's like, those little things, or seemingly little things, are critical to building the capacity that gets us through the big things. And so, we can't discount those things. We can't trivialize them. We have to put our effort into those things because that is the practice, that's the foundation that moves us toward the capacity to withstand the big, glamorous things, falling off the side of a mountain or whatever it is and, you know, walking home with one leg, uh, you know, whatever it takes. But if, if you, if you're unwilling to do the, the, the work and the day-to-day stuff, it's very unlikely you're gonna get to that point where stories will be written about you.
- CWChris Williamson
What was your favorite story that you researched when looking at the capacity chapter?
- GEGreg Everett
I think Steven Callahan's really stood out, the, the life raft experience.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you tell us about that?
- GEGreg Everett
He wrote a book... Yeah. He wrote a book called Adrift, and, um, this was in the mid-'80s, I believe, but he was sailing solo, um, uh, I forget where he started, Canary Islands maybe, and almost immediately into this trip, uh, a whale rammed his boat and the thing sank so quickly he couldn't even get all of his survival supplies out. Thankfully, he got the, the life raft that had some gear with it. And so, reading his account of that, um, it- it's just mind-blowing because the, the...... the, the degree of ingenuity and resourcefulness that he displayed is just on such a, a higher level than most of us-
- CWChris Williamson
What, like?
- GEGreg Everett
... can even imagine. Like, so my, the, the fa- the favorite for me is that he had this, this leak in his raft, and he was trying everything and all these different ropes and knots and trying to prevent it, and it just would never stop leaking. And so he finally ended up using a fork to fix it. And so y- you look at the kind of creative thinking that involves, um, and you, and if you see it now, you're like, "Oh, no big deal. He used the fork as, like, a toggle to crank on the thing. It's so obvious." No, it's not. A fork is something that we associate with creating leaks, not fixing them. So most of us who are very ju, you know, judicial thinkers would not even entertain that as a possibility, let alone take the time to think, "Here's what I have. One of these things is a old Boy Scout fork. How can I use this to repair this leak and then actually make it happen and save that raft for another 60 days," or whatever it is, which those things are meant to last, like, a week maybe at best, I think.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GEGreg Everett
Um, and so th- there were just many stories like that. And, and, and him having this internal dialogue, and he kind of described, you know, having two people in his head. One was the very emotional, um, person, and one was the, the more rational, kind of the captain, I think he referred to it as like, "Nope, this is what has to happen. You have to do this, this, and this." And you know, the other guy's in there like, "Nah, I kind of just want to lie down and just sleep this away and forget it. I don't want to do it." And so it was, it's just s, it's this, like, perfect story to me of survival, but the, the internal dilemmas and difficulties, uh, mixed with the, um, the, the necess- or necessity of being so resourceful and creative and bringing that all together into this, like, unbelievable harmony. And then it's so incredible. He gets seen by a fishing boat finally after 76 days. And he's so dialed in and, like, accepting of his situation that when the guys come to save him, he goes, "No, no, no, you guys go ahead and finish fishing and then pick me up when you're done." So he literally sat there and waited for these guys to finish their day of fishing, just waited in this raft. He's like, "Hey, 76 days, what's another six to eight hours?" That's unreal. You know, most of us, if we were in there for six hours would be, like, s, crawling out of there, swimming to the boat, "Get me out of here." He's, "Ah, you guys, I'm just going to enjoy the view for a little while." So th- that, I mean, that book, if, if you haven't read it, that book is very much worth the time.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a sick story. Have you read The Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urquhart?
- GEGreg Everett
No, I've never even heard of it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's such a hidden gem. So I got told about this about two years ago from a buddy. Think of Man's Search for Meaning, subtract-
- GEGreg Everett
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... all of the psychological insights, add in about 10X the amount of extremeness, and you've got this book.
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It is unreal. So this guy was a, um, in the Highlanders, so one of the Scottish regiment over in Japan. Um, and then when World War II began-
- GEGreg Everett
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... he was captured as a part of that when the, when Japan, uh, left, uh, or joined the war. And he gets put on these death ships, which are essentially tin boxes with 150 people in for a month at sea with no water and no food. He doesn't die. He builds the bridge over the River Kwai, uh, and is constantly-
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... dealing with dysentery and, like, a million tropical diseases at once, doesn't die.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Gets locked in a cage in the middle of the midday sun for, like, three days straight because he'd done something to piss off one of the Japanese people, still doesn't die. Then gets shipped over to, toward the mainland and gets knocked off his feet by the aftershock from the Nagasaki bomb drop, still doesn't die. And then stays silent for 50 years because the army told him to-
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to keep diplomatic relations, uh, proper. And then he writes this book as a memoir and a call to account for the Japanese government to be, um, brought up in front of the world for the crimes that they'd done against humanity while he was there. And it's so bad, but dude, like, if, if you want the contrast effect that you get where you realize-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... all of the problems that I have are absolutely tiny. And then also to see-
- GEGreg Everett
Right.
- 35:32 – 1:03:12
Composure training, business stressors, and ending with ‘confidence’ as the outcome
- CWChris Williamson
You talked about there, about remaining composed and rational in stressful situations. How can people build that in themselves?
- GEGreg Everett
Just like I talked about previously, this is something you practice every single day in even the most minor situations. And so we look at, uh, you know, so many of us just flipping out because we have to wait an extra minute for a traffic light signal, or, you know, our Instagram won't load fast enough for us to look at someone else's lunch, or like, w- whatever stupid things we get so frustrated and irritated and wound up about. Um, that's where you start is you recognize that reaction and you step back and you say, "Is this really who I want to be? Do I want to be the guy who's screaming at my phone because the Wi-Fi signal is 2% worse than it should be?" Um, and then you, you employ the various strategies that I talk about in the book that are well known, you know, uh, breathing techniques, different ways to change your focus, different ways to kind of create that sense of composure. And then you, you build from there. And so then you go into, you know, like, we talked about the, the various challenges you're going to create and employ for yourself.... and you start implementing those, uh, those composure tools in greater and greater, uh, challenges, you know, i- intensity and duration and, and variation of course, until you develop that ability. And along with that comes that confidence from the development of capability and that, that accumulation of experience. And so all those things, uh, coalesce to create that ability to remain composed in situations where most of us will be running around like our hair is on fire, uh, you know, looking for mom to come figure it out for us.
- CWChris Williamson
What is a situation that you still struggle to maintain composure in? Is it getting a red light when you-
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... shouldn't have done with one of your athletes at a, a big competition? Is it stuff to do with business? Where, where have you still got work to do in this area?
- GEGreg Everett
It's, it's definitely primarily work-related. Um, and I think that it's, it's almost entirely concentrated on m- any time I have to rely on someone else to do something for my business, I can't take it because it's never on time, it's never done the right way, uh, there's always some kind of problem, and I'm always asking myself, "Why am I wasting time and money dealing with other people? I coulda done this myself." And so any- anything that, like, disrupts my, you know, smooth, fluid flow of work still gets me. And so I, I am increasingly conscious of that and, and really, uh, working to, to be able to, like, take a breath and, and realize, like, "Hey," uh, you know, "we're not storming the beach here at Normandy. It's just a website," or, you know, whatever the case is. And, and like you said, that, that comparison of suffering sorta thing, yeah, I'm not locked in a, in a tin box on the ocean for 150 days, uh, I'm just a day late getting this website fix done. Like it's not, (laughs) it's not that big of a deal. And so being able to step back and have that big picture perspective, uh, is a key part of it. But yeah, that's, that's what gets me every time.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree, man. So I've, over the last year, my main business, which is running club nights, has been dialed down, and to operate this podcast, which has been my main project, there's only me and one guy, and both of us know what we need to do. He does his bit, and I do my bit. And it's only-
- GEGreg Everett
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... upon no longer... 'Cause I run club nights, which means that I'm dealing with a thousand drunk students a night. I need to mediate the relationship between the club manager and the door staff and the glass collectors and the bar staff and the bar manager and there's council on the street and the police on the street, and it's ju- it's a mi- there's a million different actors, all of whom-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... have their own stake. There, there's different stakeholders within the event and making sure that this thing happens, and sometimes they conflict, and sometimes they don't... And then there's a designer, and then there's the guys that run the ticketing website, and then there's all of the reps and the staff and blah, blah, blah. And, um, when you strip (laughs) all of that back, you realize how much stress comes from other people, because I think the reason it, it triggers you and me specifically is that you know you did all the things that you needed to do.
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's like-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah, I did my job. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... I did my bit, and this is being fucked up because of something that you did. And, um, that's something I often think when we see influencers online or very sort of small, um, individual-based businesses now, so the, the YouTuber that's absolutely smashing it, and he has a team of maybe, like, three or four people, but is able to turn over great-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... money and has fantastic, um, impact. But that person isn't dealing with a million different stakeholders. They're not dealing with-
- GEGreg Everett
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... California State coming and asking you for many, many thousands of pounds per month that needs to be increased-
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... because of the rent on your gym and other stuff like that. Um, and there's two ways that I think about it. One is aim to create a business in an industry that is as insulated as possible, like a hermetically sealed business in which-
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... you have as few external stakeholders as possible. And then the other side of it is when you see these people and they're fantastic and they're doing really, really well, but remember that the su- massive success of their business does not come with the same level of discomfort as the guy that owns the delicatessen or the butcher's shop around the corner-
- GEGreg Everett
Right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... because that person has to deal with more stakeholders, and that is where, as a business owner, someone that wants to make things happen and do them correctly, that's where so much of the discomfort lies.
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah. Well, and that's, that was one of the big decisions I made with, with Katalyst Athletics, my own company, is, uh, a number of years back, there was a very clear fork in the road where I could've gone full-blown corporate, brought on a lot more employees, got the big media team, all these things, uh, and it would've expanded the business and potentially made it more profitable, but m- m- the dilemma was, I don't want that. I don't want to be a manager. I want to be a content producer. I want to be a coach first and foremost. Um, I don't need the added stress of more overhead and, you know, a bigger ship takes longer to steer and, you know, all these things. Um, I got the little rowboat, man. I can turn on a dime whenever I want. So I, I sacrificed some of that potential top end in terms of profitability in, in, in spread, but I have more than enough of both of those things, and I retain that complete ownership, that complete control, and that complete, uh, enjoyment of what I'm doing, and I don't have to depend on other people and take on that added stress that I don't need. If I'm gonna be stressed, it's because, uh, I'm struggling to, you know, produce something that meets my standards, not because I'm waiting on someone else and I know they're not gonna meet my standards or, you know, whatever the case is. And so that, that's been, like, the best decision I ever made when it comes to business.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm glad to hear that. I've got a lot of friends, I think, who...... have big desires for where they want their companies or corporations to end up, and I always ask, especially when they're talking about growth and levels of revenue and stuff like that, especially if it's a big number. If they're talking about, "Yeah, man, well, we're going to try and sort of hit 10 mil top line next year," I'm like, "In the nicest way possible, man, like how much is enough?"
- GEGreg Everett
(laughs) Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Like how- how- how much money do you need? And I'm all for growth, and I love these inspirational stories about people that are able to make unbelievable apps or products or services that are worth millions and millions of pounds. That's fantastic. But at what point is the diseconomy of scale being paid by you in terms of stress?
- GEGreg Everett
Yeah. Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:03:12
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Transcript of episode WGtRw7mCOpg
