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Humankind: Are We Good Or Evil? | Rutger Bregman | Modern Wisdom Podcast 181

Rutger Bregman is a historian & an author. It's a common-held view of humanity that humans are adversarial. Shaven chimps competing with each other for resources, held together by a veneer of politeness & society. Rutger disagrees and suggests that deep down humans might actually be quite nice. Expect to learn why soldiers don't fire their weapons in war, what happens when the real world Lord Of The Flies happens, how bombing a city doesn't weaken the inhabitants and much more... Sponsor: Get Surfshark VPN at https://surfshark.deals/MODERNWISDOM (Enter promo code MODERNWISDOM for 85% off and 3 Months Free) Extra Stuff: Buy Humankind - https://amzn.to/370ack5 Follow Rutger on Twitter - https://twitter.com/rcbregman Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #rutgerbregman #humankind #society - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Rutger BregmanguestChris Williamsonhost
Jun 7, 20201h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Rutger Bregman Argues Most Humans Are Kind—Power Is The Problem

  1. Rutger Bregman discusses his book *Humankind*, arguing that humans are fundamentally cooperative and friendly, and that our cynical view of human nature is historically and politically constructed. He contrasts this optimistic perspective with long‑dominant ideas from Hobbes, the Christian tradition, capitalism, and popular culture (e.g., *Lord of the Flies*).
  2. Bregman illustrates his case with the real-life "Lord of the Flies" story of Tongan boys who survived 15 months on an island through cooperation, as well as research from anthropology, archaeology, evolutionary biology, and military history. He introduces ideas like self‑domestication and "survival of the friendliest" to explain why we conquered the globe despite not being the strongest or smartest individually.
  3. The conversation explores how institutions built on distrust (schools, workplaces, politics) bring out the worst in people, whereas systems designed on trust and intrinsic motivation can outperform traditional hierarchies.
  4. Bregman’s core claim: most people are pretty decent, but power and distance (physical and psychological) corrupt, enabling atrocities, meaningless work, and misdesigned institutions.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Question the "thin veneer" theory of civilization.

Bregman argues that the idea humans are naturally selfish and only kept in check by rules and rulers is historically convenient for those in power but not well-supported by modern evidence from anthropology and archaeology.

Recognize cooperation—not raw intelligence or strength—as humanity’s superpower.

The self-domestication theory and "survival of the friendliest" suggest humans thrived because we became tamer, more childlike, and more socially oriented, enabling large-scale learning and collaboration.

Design institutions around trust to unlock intrinsic motivation.

Examples like the Dutch care organization Buurtzorg show that flattening hierarchy and trusting people to self-organize can lower costs, improve outcomes, and raise job satisfaction compared with control-heavy, metrics-obsessed models.

Understand that most people find direct violence psychologically difficult.

Historical data from major wars and PTSD research indicate that ordinary soldiers often avoid killing at close range; militaries have had to condition them to overcome strong empathetic inhibitions, and this conditioning increases trauma.

See how distance and dehumanization make atrocities possible.

Technologies (artillery, bombing, drones) and propaganda that portray others as less than human allow people to commit large-scale violence without directly confronting the moral weight of their actions.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Most people are pretty decent, but power corrupts.

Rutger Bregman

The true superpower of human beings is not on an individual level, but on a group level.

Rutger Bregman

If millions of kids still have to read the fictional *Lord of the Flies*, then let’s also tell them about the one time real kids shipwrecked on a real island.

Rutger Bregman

If you really never want to be ripped off, the price you pay is distrusting people all the time—and that price is way too high.

Rutger Bregman

Other people are just like you. You’re probably not a monster, so they’re probably not a monster either.

Rutger Bregman

The real-life "Lord of the Flies" story and what it reveals about human natureHistorical and cultural roots of the cynical view of humanity (Hobbes vs. Rousseau)Evolutionary biology and the self-domestication / "survival of the friendliest" theoryViolence, warfare, and how distance and dehumanization enable killingPower, corruption, and how elites benefit from a cynical narrative of human natureInstitution design: workplaces, democracy, education, and intrinsic vs extrinsic motivationImplications of a hopeful view of human nature for policy, leadership, and everyday life

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