Modern WisdomHunting An Invisible Drug Lord - Jeremy McDermott | Modern Wisdom Podcast 339
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
105 min read · 20,976 words- 0:00 – 15:00
At no point have…
- CWChris Williamson
At no point have you said worried about perhaps being killed?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yeah. And, and I had a, a long chat with a couple of underworld sources about whether he would be the sort of chap who would go down that route. And one source said, "Yeah, you'll probably have an accident. Someone'll try to rob you, except they're not really there to rob you, and you'll get killed in the attempt." But then all the others, including this source, said, "No, he's not that stupid." Chris, he's not gonna sue me and kill me.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJeremy McDermott
I really think that's a one or the other situation here, you know? So I should be slightly relieved that he's suing me, I guess. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
Are you being sued by a drug lord?
- JMJeremy McDermott
I am, unfortunately, in criminal court. Um, and if convicted, face up to five years in prison, um, and a hefty fine. Um, and I won't be allowed to continue my work as a journalist so long as I am still under sentence.
- CWChris Williamson
That seems like an intense position to be in.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Uh, it's an unusual position to be in, in the sense that, um, we get sued a lot, but I've never been sued by a drug trafficker who's actually been named but not yet convicted, nor indeed been arrested. So, um, yeah, strange position to be in, um, but we're still, um, we're still plowing on.
- CWChris Williamson
What are The Invisibles?
- JMJeremy McDermott
The Invisibles, Chris, is a name we, um, we've been giving to drug traffickers here, uh, in Latin America, particularly in Colombia where, where I, where I live, um, that decided a while back that their best protection was not a private army, but was being anonymous, simply not being on anybody's radar. And, you know, if you, if you have a look at the, the Colombian drug world going back to Pablo Escobar, you know, he had his army of sicarios. And then after Pablo Escobar, we have the paramilitaries, and they end up demobilizing more than 30,000 heavily-armed fighters. Then, of course, we've got the Marxist guerrillas. So there is a tradition of extreme violence, verily, very heavily armed cartel structures, um, in Colombia and still today in Mexico. And the, um, this generation or this group of drug traffickers realized that, uh, they would left- leave Pablo Escobar to take all the heat. Um, and Memo Fantasma actually started his career in the Medellin cartel, so he goes all the way back. He's been e- he's been in the business for 30 years. Um, and so he's been quietly moving, we think, anything up to 100 tons of cocaine over the last, um, three decades, um, living in the shadows. Um, living under Pablo Escobar, and then after, the paramilitaries, um, always operat- operating, um, initially in and out of Medellin, um, and simply been able to do his business without appearing on, uh, on certainly the public's radar. Although he was on the US radar and Colombian police radar, but he was an informant for the DEA, and that seems to have protected him.
- CWChris Williamson
It doesn't surprise me that it's become a better strategy for drug lords to not be wearing a floral shirt and a gold-
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... embossed AK-47 and riding around in the back of open-back trucks and building their own jails and stuff like this. Every time that you speak to someone about the new top 100 richest people on the planet, everybody says, "Yeah, yeah, but those are the ones whose money we know about. There's got to be some seedy underworld crime bosses or some, uh, Arab prince that's hidden all of his money away. There has to be some of them that also has it." So I guess, you know, even to someone that's a, an uninitiate, the crime world ca- it makes sense, right? That someone would do that, that they wouldn't be quite so flash, that being unseen via stealth as opposed to untouchable via aggression is perhaps an even better strategy.
- JMJeremy McDermott
I think also, Chris, the, the way to think about it is, um, a drug trafficker usually starts at the coal face. Um, and the coal face in the drug world is, is your crocodile boots, is your gold chain, is your pistol stuffed down your trousers. Um, and of course, it's, this is a very violent, unpredictable world. Um, and so as you advance, you probably want to get further and further away from the coal face. Um, and the other thing, and this is particularly the case with Memo Fantasma, is when you earn an enormous amount of money, that provides different challenges. Um, you have to be able to hide that money. You have to be able to spend that money. And so, um, when, when I speak to, uh, people that knew Memo Fantasma when he was young and starting in the coal face and those that saw the evolution of Memo Fantasma, they said that, you know, quite quickly, after, after about six or seven years, um, he is beginning to wear suits. Um, and he had a penchant for European clothing. Um, and, uh, he decided that he didn't want to be in the coca fields, he didn't want to be in the drug labs. Um, he wanted to be, uh, in the United States, in Spain, making the deals, um, and that, uh...... when people who had known him early met him later, th- they, it was hard to recognize him. Um, so, yes, you can see from a business point of view, it makes perfect sense. From a drug trafficking point of view, it makes perfect sense. And perhaps the key thing, I think, is from a survival point of view, it makes perfect sense. You wanna get away from the cold face of drug trafficking, the guns blazing, um, the, uh, uh, the extreme violence and narco culture, and you want to be sitting in a penthouse in Madrid, um, rather than a coca field in Colombia, don't you?
- CWChris Williamson
Who is this Memo Fantasma guy then? What's his story?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Okay. His real name is Guillermo Acevedo. Uh, and I came across him, or I came across an alias of his back in 2005, um, where the Colombian government is negotiating with this right-wing paramilitary army. They end up demobilizing 30,000 guys. This was probably the most powerful cartel ever on the planet. Um, and they controlled most of drug trafficking. Uh, the government was, was negotiating with them and they all had different aliases and they were signing different documents as they, as they moved towards a peace process. And I was looking through, uh, the signatories at one of the bottom of these documents and there was a name I didn't recognize, and I'd met most of these guys over the years. Um, and it was Sebastian Colmenares. And so I'm going, "Okay, who is, who is Sebastian Colmenares?" Um, and, uh, he never appeared when i- when it was time to demobilize. Uh, and the name stuck with me, and I was never able to make any progress, so I sort of put that on the back burner, um, and, um, rather rebuked myself for not, for not, um, making any serious investigative progress. And then I'd also heard of a drug trafficker kicking around Medellín, where I've been living for more than 20 years, called Memo Fantasma, which is Will the Ghost, if you like. Um, and again, you know, I'd heard a l- you know, his name kept popping up, but I'd never been able to, to, to, to find out who he was. Um, and it was a bit frustrating. And again, it just kind of went onto the back burner, as there, there are dozens and dozens of these names that you, you never really, really are able to get to grips with. Uh, and then in 2015, there's a newspaper article that suggests Sebastian Colmenares and Memo Fantasma are the same guy, and so I get very excited. Um, you know, there are two names that have been gathering dust on the shelves, and they both appear to be the same guy. And so I go, "Okay, enough. We, we need to get to the bottom of this, um, because this guy's been kicking around." Memo Fantasma I'd heard had been, had been since the days of Pablo Escobar and Sebastian Colmenares had been sitting at the top table with these paramilitary drug lords. Um, and so began the investigation. Um, and the, perhaps the most alarming thing, Chris, in this world, w- when you investigate organized crime, you rely very heavily on security force sources, you know, law enforcement, um, and, you know, have got a great relationship with the DEA. Um, same with the British NCA, you know, the Italians, and of course, the Colombians, um, 'cause they've been here for so long. Nobody would help me with this guy. Um, and so the alarm bells went off. Um, and, uh, in the end, it was a source, uh, an underworld source, uh, that, uh, was able to give me, uh, several things. One was, yes, it's the same person. Yes, he exists, and if you go to this reality TV show, going back a while, you're gonna get, you're gonna see him. Um, uh, and as soon as I have an image, then I can go round all my sources and go, "Okay, is this the guy you know as Memo Fantasma." And that's what happened. On the reality show, um, it's one of those where they, they put up embarrassing situations and they see how people react. And this situation is in a, is in a café in Bogotá, where a, a man begins to mistreat, uh, the woman he's with. And so the camera's panning to, you know, how people are going to react to this, this, this show of, of, of, you know, domestic violence or whatever. A- and it pans to a chap who's sitting there with two others drinking a cup of coffee, who looks across, seems totally uninterested, and goes back to his conversation. Um, and this was Guillermo Acevedo, Memo Fantasma. And what happened during this very popular show was a group of paramilitaries in prison went, "Hey, that's Memo Fantasma." Uh, and this message came to me. Um, and so I had a photo, and so, um, the investigation really took, took, uh, took a life of its own.
- CWChris Williamson
Before you had that photo, what happened when you went to your sources? What were they saying to you?
- JMJeremy McDermott
They said to me, "Yeah, we've all heard of Memo Fantasma. Yes, of course, there was this guy called Sebastian Colmenares. Yes, Memo Fantasma was a senior drug trafficker in the Medellín cartel. Yes, Sebastian Colmenares was a big heavy hitter in the paramilitary ru- world." But then I go, "Well, then how do I find him?" And they go, "Well, I don't know. Um, I can tell you he was a small, rather uninteresting looking guy. Um, we didn't know what his real name was. Um, but, you know, I can tell you everything about his criminal career that we saw." But of course, it didn't help me find the guy and get a real name.
- CWChris Williamson
So, part of the issue was that he had hidden his own history and was so-... um, unbecoming-
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that people couldn't really remember him or, or give you much information. But I imagine as well that there were other people who might have known a little bit more and knew just how dangerous this guy was. So it was a combination of ignorance and fear.
- JMJeremy McDermott
On top of that, he was very clever, um, in the sense that he never allowed any photos to be taken of himself. Um, you know, drug traffickers-
- CWChris Williamson
Apart from being in the background of a-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... reality TV show broadcast on national television.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Well, yeah, which, which, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Which, of course, he didn't know he was gonna be on. You know, it was one of the hidden camera ones, um-
- CWChris Williamson
He should've sued them. Forget suing you.
- JMJeremy McDermott
He did.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Wasn't there a situation…
- JMJeremy McDermott
um, and he also diversified, um, the market. So while everybody in Colombia was moving stuff to Mexico, he was still moving stuff to Mexico and he was in bed with the Beltrán-Leyva, um, Cartel. But, uh, for example, in the, uh, Olympics held in Sydney, um, he moved a huge consignment of drugs to, to a time with the opening of the Olympics. Um, he had, uh... He made alliances with some, uh, with a top Spanish drug trafficker. And so he's moving, um, drugs all around the world, uh, and he, he controls the most important thing in the drug trafficking world, which are the routes. Because the money, Chris, is not made in the production of drugs. So the guy who, who, you know, who harvests the coca and, and then runs the cocaine laboratory, sure, great business. Um, and even the one that's in, in New York or in London selling the drugs, again, great business. So the percentage for the drug production guys is 150%, which in any business world, great. If you're in the retail end of the business, you're probably making 300% profit. Again, brilliant. But if you're the guy that takes the kilo of cocaine from Colombia and drops it into Sydney, you are making 3,000% profit. And so this is where the real money is. This is where the huge profits are. So anyone who controls the routes, everybody wants to do business with him, and that was Memo Fantasma.
- CWChris Williamson
Wasn't there a situation where he... someone died high up in a cartel and he was just left with loads of drugs? Wasn't this kind of his-
- JMJeremy McDermott
This, um-
- CWChris Williamson
... come to power moment?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Well, this is, this is, um, um, this is part of the, the urban myth. Um, uh, I think it's true and I've got some sources said it was true, but other sources say no. So I'm not gonna put my hand in the fire for this one. But the story is that, um, uh, he is in the United States having just received a shipment of cocaine from the Medellín Cartel when Pablo Escobar is killed, um, on a Medellín rooftop. Um, so, uh, the Medellín Cartel goes into meltdown. Nobody knows what the hell is going on and he is sitting on a very large shipment of cocaine. He sells it, and of course he doesn't know who to push the money back up to because there's chaos. The Medellín Cartel is in chaos, so he just keeps the money. He pump-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, when you're fighting for leadership, you're not calling in your debtors quite so much, right?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Exactly. And also, I think that, um, uh, so much of this stuff is in people's heads that when people get killed, all record of their business dealings gets lost as well. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, quickbooks.com doesn't have a backup of-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Exactly. Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
And, you know, um, uh, uh-So he returns to Colombia with a pile of cash. And this we do know, we have it confirmed, he sets up his first small company and he sets up his own drug laboratory, um, about four miles north of Medellín and he starts processing his cocaine and using his Mexican and US contacts to go into business for himself.
- CWChris Williamson
Why are you living where you're living given what you're doing-
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... for work? Right? You're just talking about four miles away from this place and then you're happily living in that region for two decades.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Um, well, first of all, it's absolutely beautiful part of the world, Colombia. Um, breathtakingly beautiful. Um, the people are, uh, you know, those that aren't trying to sue you, um, are absolutely lovely. Um, and, uh, I think for us particularly, those of us from a, from a European background, where, uh, you know, people moan about mortgage rates and the weather, uh, living in a place where they have real problems and still seem to have way more fun than us, um, uh, it's, uh, it's been for me a very rewarding life. Uh, does it have, of course, its downsides and, uh, living in, in a, in a less developed world, in a world where there is enormous amounts of violence? Of course. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
But sh- do you not have personal security concerns? I mean, are you constantly walking around with an armed guard or something?
- JMJeremy McDermott
No, absolutely not. I mean, yes, I have the personal security concerns, um, but I'm not walking around with a armed guard. Um, we have moved our kids out of, out of Colombia with the, the, the most, um, recent, uh, raft of threats. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
What were they?
- JMJeremy McDermott
You have to... This was linked with Memo and my wife is a journalist as well, and she had received separate threats for-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, fantastic. Okay. So you're-
- JMJeremy McDermott
... for, for, for, for different... So it's both sides.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're, you're, you're getting pincer, uh, pincer movement. Yeah. Exactly. Fantastic.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Um, but you, um, I guess you have to make a decision. Either you pack up and go and do something else or you, you stick with it. And we've, we've decided to, to stick with it. Um, and also, I think, Chris, without, without, you know, beating one's chest or anything, this guy can't get away with it. He cannot sue a journalist who has proven, uh, not only his existence, but his criminal record and get away with it. I mean, you just... You can't. You can't, you can't back down in that. Um, and one has to point out to the Colombian judicial system the irony of them not issuing an arrest warrant for Memo Fantasma, someone who's already been identified by the Attorney General, and they've seized two of his properties as well. So it's not like there isn't a case there. Um, and then the same justice system which is seeing him walking free being used against a journalist to attempt to silence him. So, um, yeah, can't... That, that, that will not stand, Chris. That will not stand.
- CWChris Williamson
All right. So how did he get rid of his history? Because everyone is born somewhere, everyone has a history-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... when they come into this world.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Okay. Um, he got rid of his, uh, initial judicial history by bribing two, um, fiscales, who are prosecutors in the prosecution service of the Attorney General's office. We have their names. I haven't published them yet 'cause I'm not ready for another couple of lawsuits and these two are now-
- CWChris Williamson
One at a time, Jeremy.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yeah, exactly. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
One at a time, okay?
- 30:00 – 45:00
Probably correct, yeah. …
- JMJeremy McDermott
and, uh, with this particular source, I've now registered 80 hours of interviews. Um, I met, um, I met him, uh, and, uh, uh, you know, he worked with Memo for 13 years. So, um, uh, you know, we've got some really great stuff. The problem always with this...... Chris, is all these guys are criminals and you can't trust a word that comes out of their mouths, so you have to verify it. And that has been a long and exhaustive process because I've had no help from police or law enforcement. I've had to verify, and I am having to verify it, with other underworld sources. And so when three underworld sources say the same thing and they're not connected, you go, "Well, actually, you know what? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm prepared to go with that."
- CWChris Williamson
Probably correct, yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
From this particular source, yeah. And this source, over the 80 hours, I haven't caught him in a single lie yet. Um, so he seems to be, he seems to be the real deal.
- CWChris Williamson
This is only going to be part one, in that case. We've got it.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Oh, part one has been published. This is gonna be part two and, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, yeah. So we've got a... I mean, to the podcast, we're gonna get, get ourselves up to this stage-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Oh, I see. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... of where we're at with, with these articles and then when the next part comes out, they can be the, the difficult sequel.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Absolutely, I hope so. And then I'm hoping that the last one, Chris, will be my final interview with Memo from his prison cell. Okay?
- CWChris Williamson
Fantastic. Um, okay, so going back, how did you get onto his trail more seriously? You've got his photo from the background of Ashton Kutcher doing a Punk'd episode or whatever it is-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yep. Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... and then Colombian Ashton Kutcher, and then you go, "Right, okay, I have his image, I can show it to people, people can say, 'Yes, that is him'."
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, that, that doesn't mean much more either, does it?
- JMJeremy McDermott
No, but we, we found his real name in these files from Peace and Justice. You know, one of his partners in the paramilitary army says his name, and the name that I was given that they had for him was a f- was a false alias, was an alias that he used in the paramilitary. So actually, that was a dead end to begin with. But then when we went through all of the, all of the, the transcripts and we heard it, then we find another name. Um, uh, and, uh, i- with that name, we are able to start following a money trail. So there's stuff, there were businesses that were associated with Memo Fantasma in, particularly in the airport in Medellín. He had a hangar there. Um, and we'd been told by so many different sources, "Oh, Memo was the owner of that," but I'm going, "I haven't got a name and, you know, I can't go through every single hangar and find out if that's Memo Fantasma." But then we got this name from the paramilitary peace process, and once you've got a name and you've got the, the companies, um, we got his ID card from the Chamber of Commerce, 'cause you know when you register a company, you have to put your ID in there. So they... he had to scan his ID card, and that was it. We had him dead to rights after that because then we find he's got a legal company. Um, we follow the legal company because, of course, the more and more successful you become as a drug trafficker, the less and less you put under your name, for obvious reasons. Um, and so what we did is we find his legal company, we find the names of his relatives, his wife who's up to her neck in it as well, um, and then we start following those names. And so suddenly, the business begins to move further and further and further, and this is where we found, um, his mum had bought a series of properties in the most expensive part of Bogotá. So, these were old houses, uh, in a neighborhood in the north of Bogotá. He uses, um, (coughs) his mum and another couple of companies to buy almost an entire city block. He then goes to the husband of the now vice president of Colombia, who is a, um, construction magnate, goes, um, "Hey, you should... You know, I'm now sitting on some of the most prime real estate in Bogotá. Do you fancy putting up a, um, a development here?" And of course, he goes, "God, yeah," um, and they build what is called as Tower 85 'cause it's on the 85 block of, of Bogotá. It's an emblematic development. Huge. Um, and, uh, and so Memo Fantasma gets into bed with Álvaro Rincón, who is the vice president's husband, um, and the other... well, the major shareholder of that company, Hitos Urbanos, was the current vice president. And of course, the question is did she or did she not know who she was getting into bed with? Um, and anyway, I spoke to her, I interviewed her as part of the process, I interviewed her husband as part of the process. He said, "Yeah, we did the business deal with him," which they couldn't deny 'cause I had all the papers, um, but they said, "We had no idea he was a drug trafficker. He had no arrest warrant," which he didn't, um, and, uh, so, you know, oh, you know, "Why are you accusing us of irregular activity?" Um, to which of course I replied, "So this guy comes in off the street, um, he's not from, um, uh, Bogotá, he's from Medellín, um, and, uh, this is the late 1990s in Colombia, um, you don't think to do any due diligence on him." And so they say, "Yes, we did, and we rang the chief of police, um, to check if this guy had any record." So I spoke to the chief of police and he said, "I don't remember that, but it could have happened." So he was... he really hedged himself. He said, "People are always ringing me to check," and, "Yeah, of course, I'm sure she could have done..." 'Cause she was then the defense minister, um, so, you know, probably. Um, but, uh, yeah, it didn't, it doesn't smell right to me and, um, uh, uh, something happened. But Memo not only...... does this amazing development, but he gets his children into the Eton of Bogotá, or the Eton of Colombia. Th- his children go to the top school in the country, where there's a list, where there's a line going round the block to get into the school. Somehow an outsider, um, gets into this school. Uh, apparently someone wrote a letter on his behalf, and that person might have been the Colombian vice president. 'Cause if you're gonna get into the Eton of Colombia, you probably need a reference from someone like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Um, so he suddenly is driving around Bogotá like a businessman, in his European suits-
- CWChris Williamson
Legit.
- JMJeremy McDermott
... um, legit, with his daughter, um, his daughters, uh, in this exclusive school. One of his daughters is now international, um, showjumper, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Of course she is.
- JMJeremy McDermott
... you know, represents... Yeah, exactly. Um, uh, living in, you know, the richest part of the city, and he's clean. But Chris, he disappears to Madrid in 2015, which is when I find th- when that article is published, which I said-
- CWChris Williamson
Which article is the first one?
- JMJeremy McDermott
... where Memo Fantasma... Which, which, which says that Memo Fantasma and Sebastián Colmenares are the same person, and I don't find that a coincidence. Um, you know, this article is published by a Spanish... by a Colombian newspaper, saying, "Look at this guy. Um, you know, he's, he's these two people," but they don't have a name. Well, they do have a name, and it's the wrong name, 'cause it's the name that he planted. But he knows that someone's now looking for him, and so he disappears off and sets up, um, a multimillion-euro business in Madrid, moves his family there, puts them into a really good school in Madrid, um, has a lovely flat in the center of Madrid, and a lovely house on the outskirts of Madrid. And he's living the life until I arrive and knock on the door. He's now sold, um, all his Spanish properties, um, and he's back in Bogotá.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. So talk me through flying out to Madrid and how you find where he is, and then you end up giving him a, a casual chat.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Well, I didn't... He wouldn't see me. What, what I did was, um, I stake out, uh... I've got two addresses 'cause we follow the money, and we see that this company... He sets up two companies in Madrid, um, under his name. So, you know, I'm able to follow the companies, and we're able to see what resources he bought through those companies. So he's bought this flat. He's bought this house. He's got a, um, a Land Rover. He's got a BMW motorbike. So we've got all this stuff, um, but again, he's so clever. Um, the apartment, uh, has a, um, a porter downstairs, so you can't doorstep. And the apartment has got two exits. One is the car exit and one is the, the foot exit, and you can't cover them both at once, at least not if you're a poor journalist with just you. Um, and then the house is in one of those closed neighborhoods, you know. Uh, apparently, there's lots of, um, Real Madrid and all these other... You know, it's f- it's a very popular, closed neighborhood for those who don't want to be photographed. Um, and so I can't ambush him there, um, and so, uh, uh, I create a ruckus by going. Well, I go to the apartment and to the house, and, um, uh, and he's, he's in the house, I think, when I call, because the, the, the guard says, "There's a guy here wants to speak to Señor Guillermo," and I can hear a male voice through the, the, the, the intercom. Um, and then the, the, the guard goes, "Oh, no, he's not at home."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJeremy McDermott
Um, but then I go to the- his lawyer's office 'cause it gives them... The company has the lawyer, um, and so I go to the lawyer's office, um, and I say, "Look, I'd like to leave a message for Guillermo Acevedo," and they go, "Sure." Um, uh, and then I say, "You know, would it be possible for, for you to give him a call? 'Cause it's really quite urgent, and just, just let him know that I'm here, um, and see if he wants to speak to me." And so they call, and then they come back into the room and, "Everything has completely changed. You need to leave now. Um, we don't work for Guillermo Acevedo. We're not taking any, any, uh, message for him." And so I then start screaming, um, "You know, this company works for terrorists and drug traffickers. Is that what you do? Uh, you know, I'm gonna have to write an article on you guys. Are you facilitators for the underworld?" Um, and I get thrown out. Um, but the point is, of course, that he now knows that I'm here. I've now created a scene at his lawyer's, and the lawyers obviously didn't know, um, and so he rings me, and he goes, you know, "What the hell is going on? How dare you create all this thing? Did you threaten the lawyers? How dare you threaten lawyers?" And I said, "Well, actually, I was here to threaten you, not the lawyers." Um, and so we have this conversation for 22 minutes where, um, he, uh, seeks to persuade me that he's not Sebastián Colmenares or Memo Fantasma, um, and that I'm some poor gringo, um, foreign, uh, uh, journalist who's been led astray by various underworld sources. Um, but through the conversation, I am mentioning the names and aliases of underworld figures that no one should know, and he clearly knows.... 'cause he never questions me once as to who the hell is Don Berna or who the hell is... Um, and so at the end of it, he's obviously flatly denied that he is Memo Fantasma. Um, but, uh, he has convinced me beyond belief, uh, any kind of doubt that he is, he is, um, Memo Fantasma. Uh, but he still thinks he can persuade me, so, um, he says, "I'll contact you by email and I will answer any questions you have," but he never did. He did contact me by email but he never answered any questions. And then what I kept doing to try and provoke responses, I would send him a, an email going, "Is it true that you were involved in the killing of, of Julio Fierro?" And he would write back, "That's outrageous. I'm not a... You know, I'm never involved in killing anyone," which was enough for me to keep, you know, getting, uh, something which we used in the, in the articles. Um, and, um, and then there we are. He's won. He's still out there and, um, and, uh, he is still, um, enjoying his fortune.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So how did you come to be sued by the vice president of Colombia?
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
What do they have…
- JMJeremy McDermott
set out to blacken my name, um, and therefore it's criminal charge and it comes with a criminal sentence, which is up to 72 months in prison, which is five years. Now, the reason that everybody, all the bad guys use the criminal libel is not only because it comes with a prison sentence, but they don't have to prove that it's a lie. So if th- they say if Memo or the vice president had sued me in civil court to say, "You're, you're lying to me," I would go, "Prove it. Here's the stuff I've said. Prove it's not true," which they can't do because I've got all the documentary evidence. But in a criminal case, they don't.
- CWChris Williamson
What do they have to prove?
- JMJeremy McDermott
They don't have to prove anything. They just have to-
- CWChris Williamson
What's... So what's the point of having the criminal libel?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Because what it does is it passes it to the attorney general's office, and the attorney general's office has to investigate it because it's a criminal report. Now, the attorney general now has to decide whether there is a criminal case to answer, and then it goes to trial or it doesn't go to trial. The thing that we are worried about, or I am worried about, is it is going to go to trial because he has some people in the attorney general's office. However, I do not believe that Colombia wants to imprison a British journalist, um, uh, who has investigated... who is being sued by a Colombian drug trafficker who's already been identified by the attorney general because that is a public relations nightmare for Colombia. But that doesn't mean that the judicial process cannot go s- go forward. Um, my aim is obviously to make it as high profile as possible so that they can't do any manipulation of evidence and case, or if they do, I can go screaming, you know, "How can I... What, what crime have I committed?" Um, so that's, that's where we are. Am I worried about spending five years in prison? I'm not. Am I worried about it going to court? I am. Um, and, uh, is he trying to, um... Is he hoping that it's gonna cost me so much money that I will, you know, back away? Um, he maybe is, but now, um, uh, I have pro bono lawyers now who have taken on the case, um, 'cause they think it's as outrageous as I do. So he's not gonna be able to outspend me either. So, and-
- CWChris Williamson
It's difficult to outspend someone that's getting stuff for free.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Exactly. Um, although I think there will come a point where my pro bono lawyers might go, "You know what? We just thought this was, um, for a bit of a laugh. (laughs) We didn't realize, you know, three years later that we're still having to defend you." But we'll, we'll, we'll see. And of course, um, we're going to continue publishing, and so w- I think the next round of articles, which are pretty damning, uh, and has got, have got so much detail from these, these inside sources, um, are going to do one of two things. Um, the first is the Colombian attorney general's office is gonna be so embarrassed, um, that they're actually gonna issue an arrest warrant, which is what I'm hoping is going to happen, um, or he's gonna go on the run again.... um, 'cause at the moment, he's living, um, as we say in Spanish, (Spanish) , "Like Peter in his house." Um-
- CWChris Williamson
I thought you said he came back to Bogotá.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yeah, he's in Bogotá. He's in his house in Bogotá.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, okay.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, okay.
- JMJeremy McDermott
That's where he left to Spain. He was living in Bogotá, as I told you-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
... you know, in the top school and in the top neighborhood.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And then he's gone to Spain. So why come back to Bogotá?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Because we were speaking to the Guardia Civil in Spain when we were looking on information for him, and the-
- CWChris Williamson
And he doesn't have as many people in there. He doesn't think he's quite as protected in Spain.
- JMJeremy McDermott
He doesn't have anybody. He doesn't ha-... And the Guardia Civil wanted his money, um, 'cause they wanted to freeze his accounts, um, because there was, you know, at least 11 million euros in there and they thought, "We'll have a bit of that." Um, but again, the Columbia... They needed documentation from the Colombian Attorney General's office, which they didn't get. Why didn't they get it? They made an official request. But Memo knows somehow about it all. He's flogged everything it seems, and he's left.
- CWChris Williamson
And pulled all of his money out. All of his euros are gone.
- JMJeremy McDermott
And pulled all of his money, yeah. And now the Guardia Civil, uh, you know... I spoke to my contact a few months back and he said, "Yeah, the flat's sold, the house is on the market, and he's gone."
- CWChris Williamson
No money for you-
- JMJeremy McDermott
And then I-
- CWChris Williamson
... Spanish people.
- JMJeremy McDermott
And then, yeah, and then I found he was in, he was in, uh, Bogotá, and then he came to Medellín. His mom lives, um, about, uh, 800 meters from my house in Medellín. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
I can't... Sorry.
- JMJeremy McDermott
... e-
- CWChris Williamson
I need... Jeremy, what do... why-
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I can't wrap my head around the fact that this is superstar underworld, invisible drug lord lawsuit, someone that's, by your own definition, criminally insane. He's killing people with-
- 1:00:00 – 1:04:23
So, when he launders…
- CWChris Williamson
you can have the political allies to ensure that you stay free.
- JMJeremy McDermott
So, when he launders the money-
- CWChris Williamson
Like the husband of the, of the-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... vice president, yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
I don't think that is coincidence. I think he's thinking-
- CWChris Williamson
Strategic.
- JMJeremy McDermott
... "How do I tie in-"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JMJeremy McDermott
"... powerful people? I will give them a deal they can't turn down." So, he goes to the husband and he says, "Listen, I'm going to give you this prime real estate at a really good deal." He jumps at it. Of course he jumps at it. But that's it. Now he's tied in, and his wife's tied in, and we think he's done this-
- CWChris Williamson
Too big to fail.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Well, and also, they don't want this to come out. They don't want this to come out, so they are now invested in maintaining his legitimacy and his legal facade. Uh, it's brilliant. Don't you think it's brilliant?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's a shame that he applied his talents to criminality, 'cause, you know, we'd probably be living in a utopia and surfing on Mars if he'd actually managed to apply-
- JMJeremy McDermott
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
... this talent to something a bit more altruistic.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Unfortunately, and, you know, I'll put this to you, Chris, you have a choice. You can enter the legal world in Colombia, where the minimum wage is $2,000 a year, and you can go to school and work your way up, um, and, you know, uh, maybe you will earn, uh, $500,000 over the course of your life, okay, which is what the average Colombian gets, nowhere near. Or, you can move 10 kilos of cocaine, just once, and you will earn the same amount as you're going to earn in your entire legal existence. Would you take that risk, Chris?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I'm a law-abiding citizen.
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs) Well, you- you can see the temptation (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
And as you know, Jeremy, we're both very orderly-
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
We're both very orderly British fellas.
- JMJeremy McDermott
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
We stick to the rules. Um, yeah, I mean...
- JMJeremy McDermott
You can see the temptation.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. And this also highlights what often gets brought up to do with wealth inequality, right, that when you have these disparities in wealth, when you have some people that have a lot and some people that have none at all, that is one of the, um, sparks for crime. And it kind of makes sense. If it's so, so much of a grind to make an amount of money that in another th-... I, I, I imagine that it's not hard to get into drugs if you want to in Colombia or in Mexico still today.
- JMJeremy McDermott
Well, it's not hard to get into crime, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JMJeremy McDermott
That's, you know... And then you get into the drug world, um, as well. But, uh, yeah, the rewards are so high. And what Memo- the reason that Memo Fantasma is such an emblematic figure is that the fact he's still out there shows that the risks are sufficiently low for you v- to make it worthwhile. And that's the message we have to send, is that he can't get away with it. Um, uh, and he has so far.
- CWChris Williamson
Jeremy McDermott, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to check out more about this, where should they go?
- JMJeremy McDermott
Uh, please come to, uh, the InSight Crime website. Um, uh, we're a big team of, uh, 45 journalists scattered around Latin America and the Caribbean. We do organized crime day in, day out. Please come and visit.
Episode duration: 1:04:23
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