Interesting Ideas From Philosophy For A Better Life - Alex O'Connor (4K)

1. 0:00 – 0:18

   Intro

   1. NANarrator0:00

      Alex O'Connor, welcome to the show.

   2. AOAlex O'Connor0:02

      How splendidly we progress. Uh, the first time on a Skype call, second time was in person in Austin, and now something of a sort of cinematic production. I fear that next time we'll be in 3D or something.

   3. NANarrator0:15

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor0:15

      It's good to see you again.

   5. NANarrator0:16

      Good to see you as well, mate. Uh,

2. 0:18 – 8:11

   The Peter Hitchens Incident

   1. NANarrator0:18

      how are you feeling in the aftermath of Peter Hitchens?

   2. AOAlex O'Connor0:22

      Validated, vindicated. Uh, I must say that I was a little bit... I was in two minds about uploading that, that interview. He does... There, there was a bit of a, a mixture of opinion coming from him. He wasn't speaking entirely clearly, must have been something on his mind. He said, as he's getting up to walk out, "I don't think you should run this." And I'm thinking, "Look, if, if, if my guest tells me that they don't want me to run an interview for any reason, it could be because they've had a bad hair day, then I'll respect that." And so I thought, "Damn, am I really gonna have to, you know, be the bigger man here and just not post this at all?" But then he kept saying, "Oh, run it if you like. You know, I can't stop you from running it. I just don't think you have any moral right to run it" And I asked him, "Why?" And he said it was because I am a propagandist for drug decriminalization, a subject which prior to that, by the way, I'd spoken about once ever, and that I'd intentionally tricked him to appear on my podcast in order that I might fool him into a conversation about drugs. Now, before the podcast started, I said, "Mr. Hitchens, you have, uh, about three subject areas that we both talk about where I think there's a bit of crossover, that you've either spoken about or indeed written books about. And those are the decriminalization of drugs..." I also mentioned this in my email. "... The existence of God or r- religion," I should say God and religion is the topic. And, uh, the third was monarchy. At this point he says, "Well, you know, monarchy's a bit boring." Okay, notice, listener, that he did not take this opportunity to tell me that he thought that drugs were a bit boring and would rather not really talk about drugs at all or for too long. Okay, fine. So I'm thinking, "I agree with you, the monarchy is incredibly boring." In fact, that's the entirety of my point about the monarchy, is that it's essentially just boring more than anything else. So let's just do the other two. So I say, "We'll run for about an hour, ideally." He says, "That's good, you know." And I say, "But, you know, if the conversation flows, it can be an hour and a half, it could be two hours." And okay, he says, "Well, look, you know..." I, I say, "Sometimes they can be three hours long." He says, "Well, three hours might be a bit long, but we'll see how we do." So I'm thinking about an hour and a half. An hour and a half on what was now, in my view, two subjects. So at about 40 minutes into this potentially 90-minute podcast on the same topic when he told me that we've been going around for too long on said topic, I was a little bit bemused. But I did think to myself, "Maybe I've done something wrong here. Ma- maybe I have, uh, upset him in a way that obviously was not intentional." You know, I wasn't trying to bring this out of him, although, you know, it does do quite well for the channel. It's not like it's something I would do intentionally. So I did think to myself, "Well, maybe I've done something." So I listened back and I sent it to some friends, including you, and thank you for listening to it, and, and saying that like... Most people just said, "You have to run this." Uh, "He's, he's been completely unreasonable." And so there have been criticisms. People have said, "Well, you know what? It was a bit boring," or, "Yeah, it was going around in circles." I submit that that was his fault, by the way. Uh, because he does this thing, which I've noticed in a lot of philosophical and political discussion, uh, which is the sort of, "I know this one" attitude. When you do a lot of interviews-

   3. NANarrator3:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor3:27

      ... I find that you have a sort of, "I know this one." And so, uh...

   5. NANarrator3:30

      They answer the question that they heard, not the answer that was asked.

   6. AOAlex O'Connor3:33

      Exactly.

   7. NANarrator3:34

      Yeah.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor3:34

      And, and it, and it happens, eh, especially when it's, it's easy enough to make that mistake if you're not listening carefully. So, uh, he was talking about, uh, the... Well, I, I asked him about the decriminalization of, of, of cannabis, and he says that, "Well, this will essentially mean that a lot of more children will be smoking it." He, he had this contention that children would end up smoking cannabis. And I thought to myself, "Well, okay, I can understand that concern, of course, but I think the tobacco industry has suffered quite a blow in still being perfectly legal to buy a- as an adult, but, but kids just aren't smoking cigarettes anymore. It's just not a thing that's really done."

   9. NANarrator4:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor4:10

       Why is that? I- in other words, we've had quite a successful education campaign whereby it's not popular for kids to smoke anymore, and yet it's still perfectly legal. Can't we have a similar approach to cannabis? Potentially, by the way, not a good view. Potentially a perfectly rebuttable view. I'm not sure.

   11. NANarrator4:25

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O'Connor4:26

       But I wouldn't know, because I didn't get a rebuttal to that view. Instead, I just heard, you know, all you can do is, is do the whole... Which by the way is a genuinely quite tired line in this debate, the whole, "Oh, what about smoking?" Or indeed another point where I brought up alcohol. All you can say is, "What about alcohol? What about smoking?" And that's not what I was doing. At least I contend that's not what I was doing.

   13. NANarrator4:45

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AOAlex O'Connor4:45

       But because that's what he heard, he goes, "Oh, I know this one. I've heard this before." Yeah, and, and you haven't read my book. It didn't, uh, seem to occur to him that s- it is possible, Mr. Hitchens, to read your book, and yet still after having done so, disagree with you.

   15. NANarrator5:00

       Yeah, it's... Sometimes when you hear people speak, especially guys that are a little bit older, I think, there is a, there is kind of like reverse ageism that goes on, which is, who is this sort of young whipper-snapper person who I maybe have heard of or haven't heard of much, and, um, almost like a blase kind of discrediting of the thing. It's like this is... I mean, this is your show, but it's my show, so to speak. And, um, yeah, it was like, I thought his attitude was pompous and unlikeable. And, uh, my favorite part was when he threw the pillow at the microphone.

   16. AOAlex O'Connor5:36

       Throwing the pillow down, and, and he kept sort of walking back over. He says, he says, "Y- you know, I don't, I don't want you to post this." And yet-

   17. NANarrator5:41

       I'm obsessed with pillows.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor5:42

       ... and yet walk back over to the microphone.

   19. NANarrator5:43

       I had no opinion about you before.

   20. AOAlex O'Connor5:44

       Yeah.

   21. NANarrator5:44

       I've decided that I absolutely do not like you.

   22. AOAlex O'Connor5:46

       It was, it was, uh, it was quite something. And a lot of people messaged me saying, "Hey," like, uh, "I'm so sorry that happened." Like, you know, "You doing all right?" And I'm thinking, "Sorry? Sorry?"

   23. NANarrator5:57

       (laughs)

   24. AOAlex O'Connor5:57

       I thought, "There's no way that this is happening." I mean, w- when it looked like he was about to get up, I thought-... surely not.

   25. NANarrator6:03

       Not hap-

   26. AOAlex O'Connor6:04

       But then internally, I'm thinking like, "Go on then, do it."

   27. NANarrator6:06

       Go on then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   28. AOAlex O'Connor6:06

       Do it, because I don't think I've done anything wrong here.

   29. NANarrator6:08

       It was the podcasting equivalent of, "Come on, mate. Have a go." (laughs)

   30. AOAlex O'Connor6:11

       Yeah. But you know- you know what the- the weirdest thing was, because he- he sort of gets up to go and he walks out and he stands at the door. And he's- and it's... I wish you kind of- could have seen his body language. It was- it was very much... There's one point where you can see it when he walks back into shot and he says something, and then after he's said it, he just sort of stands there, looking at me as if to say like, "What have you got?"
3. 8:11 – 17:00

   Alex’s Experience Debating Ben Shapiro

   1. NANarrator8:11

      didn't this get brought up? You debated Ben Shapiro yesterday.

   2. AOAlex O'Connor8:14

      Tr-

   3. NANarrator8:14

      How did that go? I haven't even seen you.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor8:15

      It went well. I think, uh, it- it will probably be out around the time of this- this interview, maybe slightly before or slightly afterwards. Uh, it was- it was a good conversation. We were discussing whether or not religion is good for society. And-

   5. NANarrator8:29

      Tough stance for young Benjamin to take at the moment.

   6. AOAlex O'Connor8:31

      I suppose so. I mean, it was a very much sort of don't mention the war type- type scenario. Um, I mean, the- the producers had said, "Look, we want this to be an evergreen conversation. We want this to be something that people can listen to at any point."

   7. NANarrator8:43

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor8:43

      And also, Ben had just the night before been to the Oxford Union, and I haven't seen that yet either.

   9. NANarrator8:49

      I have.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor8:49

       But it- it- it sounds like-

   11. NANarrator8:50

       I saw that. He went had at it with a bunch of, uh, people on the other side of the fence, so to speak.

   12. AOAlex O'Connor8:55

       Yeah. He didn't have a very good time. He said to me that it was the most tense thing that he's ever done.

   13. NANarrator9:00

       Wow.

   14. AOAlex O'Connor9:00

       The most tense thing he's ever, ever been a part of.

   15. NANarrator9:03

       Well, I saw... Something that was kind of interesting was the video was only shot on what appeared to be iPhone.

   16. AOAlex O'Connor9:08

       Yes.

   17. NANarrator9:09

       Uh, so there was no... Maybe they just wanted to get it up early as opposed to waiting for the Oxford Union's official video to come through.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor9:16

       Seems to be the case. They- they do seem to be planning to upload it. Uh, in fact, when I was recording with Ben, I think his team were in the green room sort of furiously subtitling to try and get it out, potentially before the Oxford Union does.

   19. NANarrator9:27

       Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. AOAlex O'Connor9:28

       I'm not entirely sure. But, uh, I mean, it sounded like a- a- a hell of an evening. And so the next day, he was saying that it sort of felt like a nice break from that.

   21. NANarrator9:38

       What, to sit opposite you?

   22. AOAlex O'Connor9:40

       (laughs) Well-

   23. NANarrator9:40

       That you are the comfortable leather pair of shoes that he can put on.

   24. AOAlex O'Connor9:44

       I think Ben relaxes in argumentation. I think he genuinely enjoys it. I- I think there's no contradiction to say that he was having some time off by sitting there and- and- and having a- having a spat.

   25. NANarrator9:54

       Playing with you.

   26. AOAlex O'Connor9:55

       But he was having a break from the politics.

   27. NANarrator9:57

       Right.

   28. AOAlex O'Connor9:57

       In other words, he was able to just argue about something a bit more perennial and a little less, uh, a little less fiery, I suppose.

   29. NANarrator10:04

       What have you learned? So you are... I've been a massive fan of you since before you came on the podcast, and since then, we've become friends, and you've come out to see me in Austin. We've spent a ton of time together. You're probably my favorite person to watch debate people, because it's kind of a little bit like watching, uh, Batman versus Spider-Man or something, 'cause I know you well, and we've argued a lot. But I- and I know maybe Ben Shapiro, but I don't know what will happen when these two people come together.

   30. AOAlex O'Connor10:29

       Mm.
4. 17:00 – 29:40

   Has Philosophy Revealed Anything Impactful Recently?

   1. NANarrator17:00

      when was the last time that you're aware of, in your world of philosophy, that something like a, a step change, like the equivalent of the discovery of the Higgs boson happened?

   2. AOAlex O'Connor17:11

      In philosophy?

   3. NANarrator17:12

      Yeah, just...

   4. AOAlex O'Connor17:13

      Every now and again something does come along that's a bit revolutionary. And a, a, a recent example, and by recent, consider we're talking about the history of philosophy here, 20th century, uh, the theory of knowledge is completely exploded by a man called Edmund Gettierre. Uh, and this is, this is actually, I, I think, quite fascinating. I'll be interested to hear what you think about this. So, knowledge is really difficult to define. People didn't used to have as much of a problem with it. Like, if you had to give a definition of knowledge, what does it mean to know something? This isn't, like, a trick question.

   5. NANarrator17:44

      Uh-huh.

   6. AOAlex O'Connor17:44

      I'm just, I'm just interested. What do you think?

   7. NANarrator17:46

      To know something, uh, to be able to accurately predict what happens in the world.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor17:51

      Okay, so it's got something to do with it being true in the world-

   9. NANarrator17:54

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor17:55

       ... and your ability to predict, but you can also think about things in the past, right?

   11. NANarrator17:59

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O'Connor17:59

       Like, like you can know that Napoleon existed or something, so, so prediction, if you think-

   13. NANarrator18:05

       And the ability to infer and to sum-

   14. AOAlex O'Connor18:06

       Yeah, to infer, to, to sort of, to have some kind of belief about the world-

   15. NANarrator18:11

       Which is accurate.

   16. AOAlex O'Connor18:12

       ... which is accurate, which is, which is true.Um, sure. But then, uh, imagine, for example, you're in a, you're in, like, a locked concrete box with no windows.

   17. NANarrator18:22

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor18:22

       And I don't know, like, a, like some voodoo mystic tells you that it's raining outside and they're- they're just, like, insane. They're on drugs or something and- and- and they just tell you that it's raining. They're convinced of it. And- and for some reason, you believe them, totally irrationally. And it just so happens that it is, by coincidence, raining outside.

   19. NANarrator18:41

       Did you know?

   20. AOAlex O'Connor18:42

       Right. So you have a belief about the world which is true, but it would seem very strange to say that you know that it's raining outside, right?

   21. NANarrator18:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AOAlex O'Connor18:50

       And so since Plato and the ancients, we've sort of had a consensus on the idea that knowledge is justified true belief.

   23. NANarrator18:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AOAlex O'Connor18:57

       JTB. So you need to have a belief that's true. You need to, of course, believe it to be true. But you have to also be justified in that belief, and that's what makes it knowledge.

   25. NANarrator19:07

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AOAlex O'Connor19:08

       So if you, if you see that it's raining outside through the window and you believe that it's raining outside and then it's true that it's raining outside, now you can say you know that it's raining outside.

   27. NANarrator19:15

       Right.

   28. AOAlex O'Connor19:15

       Okay. And this is just essentially consensus for- for to- potentially thousands of years we're talking about here. And then Edmund Gettier, uh, uh, and at least one account, this may be apocryphal, but it's said that he sort of hadn't really published anything and was being compelled to- to get something in a journal. And he just sort of reaches into his papers of random things he's been writing, pulls out the one on the top and- and hands it off for- for submission. This is about two or three pages long and it just upends the whole thing with- with essentially a counter-example, which are now known as Gettier cases. So his example was to say, okay, imagine that you're in a job interview and, uh, the, uh, your- your interview goes really quite well. And the person says to you, "You know, I- I- I shouldn't really be saying this, but I- I- I think you've got it." And so you go back outside and you're feeling pretty good. There are other candidates, but you've- you've got a- a pretty, you know, justified reason to think that you're gonna get the job. Then the other guy goes in and while you're waiting for him, you know, you're just fiddling around in your pocket and you- and you take out whatever you've got in your pocket, and you've got 10 coins and you're just fiddling with your 10 coins. So you develop a justified belief that the person who's gonna get the job has 10 coins in his pocket 'cause you, you're pretty sure you're gonna get the job.

   29. NANarrator20:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AOAlex O'Connor20:28

       And you've just, by chance, you've just had a look and you've got 10 coins. So you got a justified belief that the person who's gonna get the job had 10 coins in their pocket. There's been some kinda, like, freak mistake or something. Maybe they've read your name wrong on the form or they, that you're the person who told you, they thought you got it, meant to speak to the other person, but it turns out the other guy actually gets the job. But just by sheer coincidence, he also has 10 coins in his pocket. The question is, did you know that the person who would get the job would have 10 coins in his pocket? You have a justified true belief that the person who gets the job would have 10 coins in his pocket, but it seems in this circumstance you didn't know that. That just seems wrong. It seems like a wrong account. It's a bit of a sort of clunky example. And he gives another one, which is also maybe a little bit clunky, but this sort of sparks this type of affair called a Gettier case.
5. 29:40 – 38:07

   What Everyone Needs to Know About Ethics

   1. NANarrator29:40

      wish that-

   2. AOAlex O'Connor29:40

      If they don't, I mean.

   3. NANarrator29:41

      Yeah, what do you wish that, uh, more people could realize when it comes to understanding ethics and consistency in their own lives? Is there something th- a little red pill or a- a- a particular insight that you wish you could deposit into the mind of the populous that you think would make their lives a little bit more easy or their sense-making a bit more simple?

   4. AOAlex O'Connor29:59

      I don't know about making lives easier, but I- I- I do think that people should recognize the extent to which emotions dominate our ethical thinking. I mean, I- I'm- I take a... I think it's seen as a relatively eccentric view that ethics just is the expression of emotion. This was something popularized by that same Ajay Ayer in a book that was so troubling to the philosophical consensus at the time, that there's a story of a, I think it was in, like a, maybe a dean of Balliol College or something, who, when a student came in, everybody wanted to talk about this book, and they were so scared of the implications of it that he literally throws it out of the window, 'cause he- he just doesn't want to talk about it, 'cause-

   5. NANarrator30:36

      (laughs)

   6. AOAlex O'Connor30:37

      ... Ayer's talking about how, uh-... the only things that can be meaningful are those which are analytically true or empirically vi- verifiable. Th- if you're- if the statement you're making isn't- i- isn't something you can at- at least in principle test empirically or something that's just a tautology, two and two is four, then what you're saying is literally meaningless. And people came to him and said, "Well, what about ethical statements? You can't prove these in principle, and they're not tautological."

   7. NANarrator30:59

      Mm.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor30:59

      And he said, "Well, the way that they're meaningful is that they are expressions of emotion." And it gives birth to this view called emotivism, which is really a philosophy of language more than a philosophy of ethics. It- it- it tries to describe what people mean when they say good or bad.

   9. NANarrator31:16

      Mm.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor31:16

       And famously, he comes up with this analogy that saying murder is wrong is like saying, "Boo, murder." And saying murder is- or

   11. NANarrator31:24

       (laughs)

   12. AOAlex O'Connor31:24

       ... you know, saying giving to charity is good is like saying, "Yay, charity." It's just an expression of emotion.

   13. NANarrator31:28

       Mm.

   14. AOAlex O'Connor31:28

       It's not even the same thing as saying, "I like charity," or, "I don't like murder," 'cause those things can be true or false. They have truth value. It could be true that I- it is just a psychological fact that I don't like murder.

   15. NANarrator31:37

       Mm.

   16. AOAlex O'Connor31:38

       He means murder is wrong, that statement, it's just the expression of the emotion.

   17. NANarrator31:41

       Yeah.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor31:42

       Boo, murder. And I think even if you don't agree with him to that extent, as I more or less do, if you begin to recognize the extent to which emotions are dominating your ethical conduct, pay attention to what it feels like when you analyze something as wrong, I think it belongs in the same category as-

   19. NANarrator32:00

       Because you've got this sort of-

   20. AOAlex O'Connor32:02

       ... as emotion.

   21. NANarrator32:02

       ... suite of, uh, soup of s- stimulus going on inside of you.

   22. AOAlex O'Connor32:08

       Mm.

   23. NANarrator32:08

       What is it like to feel like something is wrong?

   24. AOAlex O'Connor32:10

       Mm. And, and we know that people, uh, people seem to change what they rationally do based on how they're feeling. I mean, I don't know if you've come across terror management theory before. It would surprise me if you hadn't. The- the idea that all human beings are doing is trying to manage their fear of death, and that- that's what motivates all- all human activity. And there have been some interesting studies, and some of them are harder to replicate than others. But, I mean, the f- the first one, the most famous was, uh, some, I think, Arizona state judges, and they were being asked to recommend a bond for the solicitation of prostitution. And what the researchers did was they asked them to fill out a- just a form first, and on half of the forms, they just mentioned death. They just put in a few questions about death. You know, "What do you think happens after death?" You know, "Who would you put in your will?" Th- that kind of stuff. No- nothing, nothing too extreme. And they found that the bond that was set by the judges incr- I mean, I think the num- I think the- the average bond for the control group was- was less than $100, and for the ones who were reminded of their- of their deaths was more like $200 or $300 on average.

   25. NANarrator33:16

       What does that imply?

   26. AOAlex O'Connor33:18

       So the- th- the interpretation of terror management theory was that when we're reminded of our deaths, we need to temporarily more heavily reaffirm the sort of death-denying aspects of our culture. The reason that we do things, the reason we create art, the reason that we get out of bed, the reason that we have conversations like this is because in- in some way, it's traceable back to trying to essentially deny our own death. Ernest Becker wrote a book called-

   27. NANarrator33:42

       Denial of Death.

   28. AOAlex O'Connor33:43

       ... The Denial of Death, right? And this is- this is es- essentially the idea. And so for judges, it might be something like by participating in the legal system, they're participating in something that's a bit beyond them, and therefore, it exists outside of their own mortality. And so the thesis, this mor- mortality salience hypothesis, as it's known, is that, for a judge, if they're reminded of their own death, what they will temporarily be compelled to do is more harshly reaffirm that thing that is, you know, the- the death-denying aspect of- of their daily life, which is participation in the legal system, so more harsh penalties.

   29. NANarrator34:17

       Right, okay.

   30. AOAlex O'Connor34:17

       Now, that to me seems- the explanation seems a little bit tenuous. I'm not sure about that. But it does seem strange that when you remind people of their own death, they will, you know... Christians and- or like Muslims will become more derogatory towards Jews. Uh, people of different nationalities will sit further away from each other. People will, when asked to draw pictures of currency, will draw physically larger pictures of currency. People's, uh, opinion on whether they prefer a picture of a forest or a picture of, you know, a suburban neighborhood will change on average. Th- like these- these things are extraordinary, just from being reminded of your own death. Of course, the- the biggest manifestation of the denial of death would be religion. And that- that would also explain why, you know, religion deals a lot with death and why- why sort of- if you remind people of their own death, they also become religious, which by the way, is true of atheists as well. People who don't believe in God will still become more religious, even if they don't ultimately believe in God when reminded of their own death (laughs) .
6. 38:07 – 47:38

   Making Nihilism Great Again

   1. NANarrator38:07

      to, I need to interject here. So you ring me probably three years ago, four years ago, you ring me and I'm in the gym. And you say something like, "What are you doing?" I was like, "I'm in the gym, what are you doing?" "Oh, just whatever, whatever, catch up a little bit." I was like, "What's going on? What's, what's happening?" And you said, "I'm trying nihilism." And I said, "What do you mean?" And you went, "As a life philosophy, I'm trying nihilism." And I still don't know what you mean. So how is your experiment to make nihilism great again going?

   2. AOAlex O'Connor38:42

      (laughs) Well, I was getting a bit fed up of people saying, "Oh, you're a nihilist. Oh, you're an athe-" Well, they wouldn't say it in the terms of nihilism, they'd say, "Oh, you're an atheist?" Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, I, there was a, there was a clip of Jordan Peterson on the Lex Fridman podcast. Um, and he says, "Oh, you're secular? And you, and you go to art galleries, yeah? Well, what makes you think you're secular?" And the head turn is real. He, he, he does that, you know.

   3. NANarrator39:12

      Mm.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor39:12

      And I thought to myself, "What on earth are you talking about, man? You think you can't be an atheist and enjoy art?" Now, I tried my best to understand what he was getting at, and I think he was trying to basically say that in order to enjoy art, you need to have some kind of value. And in order to have any kind of surface-level value, you can always ask the why that, why that question.

   5. NANarrator39:32

      Mm.

   6. AOAlex O'Connor39:32

      You know, why do you value this? Why, you know, the, the, the classic sort of why do you, why do you go to school? To get a good grade. Well, you don't just want the grade. Why do you get the grade? You do it to get a good job, and so on and so forth.

   7. NANarrator39:42

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor39:42

      Happens with value. And so why do you go, wh- why do you value art? 'Cause you, maybe you value beauty or something. And Peterson's whole thing is that whatever's at the top of this value hierarchy is, in his definition, divine.

   9. NANarrator39:52

      Mm.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor39:52

       He c- he just defines it as such. And so he essentially said that like, you know, people claim that they, that they are nihilists, but they don't live like that. I thought, "Well, what would it mean to really live like a nihilist?" And, you know, I, I guess I tried it on for size. But, uh, he's right in, to the extent that I think most people don't live like they're nihilists. But-

   11. NANarrator40:13

       What would the definition of living like a nihilist be?

   12. AOAlex O'Connor40:15

       I think it would just mean the rejection of, uh, of, of any such thing as a non-contingent reason for acting.

   13. NANarrator40:23

       Be more accessible.

   14. AOAlex O'Connor40:24

       You, you would need to, to, to really think that there's no reason to do anything outside of essentially your crude preferences and biological drives.

   15. NANarrator40:35

       Right.

   16. AOAlex O'Connor40:36

       And, uh, I think the reason why people think that nihilism is unlivable is because they have this image of somebody just immediately becoming a Raskolnikov-type figure and just committing a murder or something.

   17. NANarrator40:49

       Mm.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor40:49

       But they forget that th- these people still have their memory. You know, they're gonna be embedded in, in a, in a culture and an upbringing that, th- their, their preferences are essentially still going to be aligned. I mean, Penn Jillette was once asked, "If you're an atheist, why don't you kill and assault, uh, m- you know, every person you want to?" And, and he says, "I do. I do kill and assault everybody I want to, which is precisely nobody," you know.

   19. NANarrator41:13

       Hm.

   20. AOAlex O'Connor41:13

       And very clever, gets a bit of an applause. But, I mean, the, the difficult question ethically is what happens when somebody doesn't have that view, what happens when somebody does just disagree with you.

   21. NANarrator41:21

       Mm.

   22. AOAlex O'Connor41:21

       But I don't know, it was-

   23. NANarrator41:22

       So, so-

   24. AOAlex O'Connor41:22

       ... it was kind of boring.

   25. NANarrator41:23

       Just to interject there to ... So you could see, um, the meaning-making machine of society and cultural norms as being useful to constrain the behavior of those outlier people.

   26. AOAlex O'Connor41:35

       Mm.

   27. NANarrator41:36

       The ones who would go out and, and commit the litany of mass murders, but-

   28. AOAlex O'Connor41:39

       Yes.

   29. NANarrator41:39

       ... "Ugh," you know, "Mom told me that I'm not supposed to squash bugs when I was five years old," and this has now carried on through. But yeah, I think, you know, for most people, we are the descendants of the people who avoided, at least for the most part, killing people that were close to us. And we feel a lot of the time like we're now close to each other.

   30. AOAlex O'Connor41:57

       Mm. Yes. Yes. Um, I think that's probably true. Uh, uh, the issue is that the more that we try to explain away these, these mechanisms, uh, we try to understand why in our evolutionary history we might have evolved certain moral taboos-
7. 47:38 – 54:34

   Why People Hate Talking About Free Will

   1. NANarrator47:38

      every time that I talk about free will-

   2. AOAlex O'Connor47:40

      Mm.

   3. NANarrator47:40

      ... people get upset.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor47:41

      Why is that?

   5. NANarrator47:43

      That's the question for you. I think the reason people-

   6. AOAlex O'Connor47:45

      In- insert joke about how it's not their fault. Ha ha ha.

   7. NANarrator47:47

      Yeah, yeah, lol.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor47:48

      It's, it's like my least favorite genre of joke that's-

   9. NANarrator47:51

      Yeah.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor47:51

       ... that's done in, in-

   11. NANarrator47:51

       Through no free will of my own.

   12. AOAlex O'Connor47:52

       ... in philosophy. It, it's-

   13. NANarrator47:53

       Every single time.

   14. AOAlex O'Connor47:54

       Every time, yeah.

   15. NANarrator47:54

       Through no free will of my own.

   16. AOAlex O'Connor47:55

       Without fail, yeah.

   17. NANarrator47:56

       Um, I don't know. I don't know, and it's something that... The conversation about free will is such a turnoff for people that I actively push it further into episodes. I actively don't title episodes that have got that in it.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor48:10

       Mm.

   19. NANarrator48:10

       I can, uh, surreptitiously coax people into thinking about it, but the response is, is very... Uh, it's a lot amount of, uh, high amount of dissatisfaction. People don't like to think about that. Now, it may be because it's dry. W- I'm open to that.

   20. AOAlex O'Connor48:31

       That's true.

   21. NANarrator48:31

       Um, it may be because it threatens their sense of agency and sovereignty, which is something I've kind of built this channel off the back of. Like, you can enact change within your own life, internalize your locus of control, stop being such a bitch, et cetera. Uh, and so maybe I'm a, a, like a, the, a victim of my own foundation in that regard that I've selected for a particular group of people. But it's happened a few times, a few different conversations about it, tangential, um-One guy was a compatibil- like, quasi-compatibilist. Uh, you're shaking your head. Why are you shaking your head?

   22. AOAlex O'Connor49:08

       I just... Th- that, it's just the most ludicrous compromise to me, compatibilism. It, it-

   23. NANarrator49:16

       Compatibilism. Can I, can I... Eh, am I right in saying that compatibilism just kicks the can down the road and plays lexical overload with things?

   24. AOAlex O'Connor49:22

       I think more or less.

   25. NANarrator49:23

       Right.

   26. AOAlex O'Connor49:23

       A, a lot of the time, you're just also dealing with essentially a redefinition of free will. It's what, uh-

   27. NANarrator49:28

       I don't mean that. I mean this thing.

   28. AOAlex O'Connor49:29

       Yeah, yeah. Sam Harris has called it the, uh, the, the Atlantis fallacy. He, he had an extended argument with Daniel Dennett, a compatibilist, about free will. And Daniel Dennett would, would talk about all, uh, about how this exists and this exists and this... Uh, and- and Sam was like, "Yeah, that- that's true, but you- you're just not talking about what people care about in free will." What you're doing is we're trying to ask if Atlantis exists, and you're pointing to Venice, and you're saying, "Look, here's a city. It's, you know, got a lot of water, and- and it- it's- it's kind of old." And-

   29. NANarrator49:59

       Hm.

   30. AOAlex O'Connor49:59

       ... and these are all true, but it, but it's- it's just not Atlantis.
8. 54:34 – 1:07:49

   The Sexy Paradox

   1. NANarrator54:34

      your sexy paradox that you wanted to show me?

   2. AOAlex O'Connor54:36

      Oh, yeah. So think-

   3. NANarrator54:37

      Get your paradox out for the lad.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor54:38

      ... think ab-, think- think about this, right? Um, now, I- I- I can't remember what the source is, and I want to attribute the person who does it. Um, maybe I can find it.

   5. NANarrator54:47

      Yeah, get it.

   6. AOAlex O'Connor54:47

      Let me find it, 'cause I- I- I wanna make sure that they get the- they get the credit for it. I was told about it by a friend. And, um... You have to give me a minute because I want to- I don't wanna, you know, pass this off as my own.

   7. NANarrator55:01

      Mm-hmm. Like you do with everything else.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor55:05

      I think it's called the anth- yeah, the anthropic. So, it's a, it's a website called Rising Anthro- uh, uh, risingentropy.com. Um, is, is, is seemingly the origin of this paradox, but I was told about it by a friend, and it's, it's... I guess... Okay, so imagine that... And what this does is it- is it shows us that different ways of thinking give us wildly different answers to the same problem, different ways of, like, looking at a problem. So, imagine that there's a maniac who... And, and it's called the anthropic dice killer, if you want to look it up. There's a maniac who is kidnapping people and, and murdering them. And what he does is he kidnaps one person, and he blindfolds them, and he rolls a dice. And if that dice is a six, then he'll kill you. If not, he'll let you go free. And what he'll do if he lets you go free is he'll go and pick up two people, kidnap them, blindfold them, roll the dice. If it's a six, kills you. If it's anything else, go free. Then it's four people, then it's eight people, and it, it doubles expon- so it's an exponential growth.

   9. NANarrator56:11

      Until he hits a six.

   10. AOAlex O'Connor56:12

       Until he hits a six. Now, you wake up... Knowing all this information, you wake up blindfolded, and you know, you know these facts. And you know that a dice is about to be rolled, but you're blindfolded, you don't know how many people are there with you. You're given a button that you can press that will make the chances that you're killed half, one in two. So if you want to, you can press this button, and 50% of the time, it will just kill you immediately, and 50% of the time, you'll get to go free. Or you can let him roll the dice.

   11. NANarrator56:43

       Okay.

   12. AOAlex O'Connor56:44

       What do you do? Do you press the button or not?

   13. NANarrator56:47

       So, at least on the surface, this is to do with the probability of one in six versus one in two.

   14. AOAlex O'Connor56:53

       Yeah.

   15. NANarrator56:53

       But there is this escalating thing-

   16. AOAlex O'Connor56:56

       Mm-hmm.

   17. NANarrator56:56

       ... that's happening in the background. So I would presume that you would say, "Don't hit the button," because that has increased the chance of you being killed from one in six to one in two.

   18. AOAlex O'Connor57:08

       Right.

   19. NANarrator57:08

       Which is greater.

   20. AOAlex O'Connor57:08

       And thi- and this seems true. And, and it, it is true that... Yeah, I mean, like, you've got a one in six chance of dying, and if you press the button, you've got a one in two, so you're better off rolling the dice. But if you think about it as a, as a sort of, uh, as one big block, then, then something very strange happens. Because if you consider all of the people involved, i- if all you know is that you've sort of woken up and you're somewhere in this process, then interestingly, like... So say it gets to number two, it gets to round two, then there have been three people involved, three victims involved.

   21. NANarrator57:45

       Mm-hmm. The first one-

   22. AOAlex O'Connor57:46

       Right? The first one-

   23. NANarrator57:47

       ... and then the second two.

   24. AOAlex O'Connor57:48

       ... and the second two. And two of them end up dying, and one of them goes free.

   25. NANarrator57:51

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AOAlex O'Connor57:52

       So if you find yourself in this situation as a victim, you've got a more than half probability that you're in the second group that ends up dying. I suppose that actually it ends in the third group. Right? Now there are how many people involved? You've got one, then two...

   27. NANarrator58:07

       Then four.

   28. AOAlex O'Connor58:08

       ... then four.

   29. NANarrator58:09

       Yeah.

   30. AOAlex O'Connor58:10

       So we've now got seven people involved, right? And four people end up dying.
9. 1:07:49 – 1:12:36

   The Fine-Tuned Universe Argument

   1. NANarrator1:07:49

      make of the, um, fine-tune universe idea?

   2. AOAlex O'Connor1:07:52

      Uh, a lot of people describe it as the, as the most powerful argument for God's existence. Christopher Hitchens in the back of a car once said that that was really what, what gave him pause. I don't find that it moves me very much. I mean, it does seem quite extraordinary that had any of the constants of the universe, the force of gravity, for example, if it was stronger or weaker by the, the most unimaginably small amount, then it would either be strong enough that the universe would collapse in on itself, or it would be, uh, so weak that, you know, atoms couldn't even form or, or at least objects couldn't form, and everything just gets blown apart at the big bang. Um, three explanations for this. It's, it's chance, it's necessity, or it's design. And chance is... seems like a ludicrous suggestion. Uh, I mean, there are lots of different constants, and it may be the case that we discover this sort of theory of everything that reduces it down to one.

   3. NANarrator1:08:48

      Mm.

   4. AOAlex O'Connor1:08:48

      Still a huge mystery as to why it has the, sort of the constant that it does.

   5. NANarrator1:08:52

      Mm.

   6. AOAlex O'Connor1:08:53

      But would mean that we're not talking about lots of different constants in harmony, uh, rather-

   7. NANarrator1:08:58

      Somehow happens to be unified in one way.

   8. AOAlex O'Connor1:09:00

      ... rather just one. But, but, uh, the idea of it sort of necessarily being that way doesn't seem that out of the question for me. Like, uh, people, people put it in the language of saying that had the constants been different by this amount, the universe couldn't exist, and what people often hear is, "The chances of the constant being as it was, was the same number." But I don't think that's the same thing. I- it might just be not possible that it could have had a different value.

   9. NANarrator1:09:26

      What's the, uh, uh, is it the observer selection effect of this?

   10. AOAlex O'Connor1:09:30

       This doesn't work for the fine-tuning argument, I, I think. So, the so-called, like, anthropic principle, uh, the universe seems designed for human life. It, it seems odd. Like, people might point to, for example, the earth's perfect distance from the sun in the so-called Goldilocks zone. Had it been a little bit further out or a little bit closer, humans couldn't exist. And the easy answer to that is to say, "Well yeah, but if you didn't exist, then you wouldn't be there to observe that it didn't exist," right?

   11. NANarrator1:09:56

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O'Connor1:09:57

       And so you say given the size of the universe, life might develop somewhere, possibly in multiple places, and the places where it's gonna be observed, uh, coming about is where it comes about.

Episode duration: 1:39:08