Modern WisdomIs Church The New Counterculture? - Girls Gone Bible (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,015 words- 0:00 – 11:05
Introductions & The New Religious Revival
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about what you think is driving this religious revival among young people at the moment.
- AHAngela Halili
Okay. Well, I think what's driving it is the spirit of God Himself. I think that, um, you know, we are in such an interesting time in history right now where it is basically what seems like, um, the generation of the internet and AI and social media, and at the same time, you literally have God, you have Jesus infiltrating the entire Earth with His spirit and, like, reviving people's hearts, um, towards spirituality. And that's why I feel like you see a, a rise in all of spirituality at the moment, and it is like the Holy Spirit coming and stirring everybody's hearts. And right now, specifically in southern California and in so many different parts, in the UK, so many different parts of the world, um, we all just know that the Lord is really getting ready to pour out His spirit in a way that we haven't seen it in a long time.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think's missing-
- AHAngela Halili
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... from pop culture?
- AHAngela Halili
Were you gonna say something?
- ARArielle Reitsma
Well, I just wanted to add onto that that I think why revival's coming is because everyone's realizing that all these things aren't working anymore. Everyone is depressed. Everyone is anxious. Everyone is trying to fill a void.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
And the only thing that can fill that void is Jesus, and that's just the truth. And so I think everybody's trying to do all these things and they're like, "Wait a minute. I still feel so empty." And so then they come into a relationship with Jesus and they're like, "Wait a minute. Okay." And so I know that's our story. We were always so lost and empty, and, um, we tried everything. And then that's when we found Jesus and He filled that void that was always missing, so.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the story of how you two met? What's the arc of how you ended up getting here?
- ARArielle Reitsma
Oh, this is my favorite story. Um, my life was just in shambles. I was severely depressed. I was just... I was, like, on my way out. I, that's how depressed I was. My mind completely broke. Um, I spent my whole life trying to fill the void and other things, and I always came up feeling very empty and alone and lost. I come from darkness. I come from the world. Um, and I hit a wall, and I was just on my way out. I met Jesus in a little Catholic church by my house and, um, my... I don't come from a, a household of faith and so I remember calling my family and being like, "I think I just found God." And they're like, "What? All right, Ariel. You've gone crazy." And so I would sit in the, in the pews in this little church and I would sit there for hours and just cry out to Jesus and be like, "Help me." I, I was... I didn't feel adequate in the church, not that it's the church's fault, but I come from a, I don't come from a religious household so I'd been praying fervently, "Would you bring me a friend that is cut from the same cloth that can help me, that can do this walk with me, that can, you know, hold my hand through this?" Five months later, I meet Angela at a job. I was crying in my hands. I was, like, struggling so much, and she took my hand. I didn't even know she was there. I looked over at her and I was like, "Is that an angel?" (laughs) And, yeah. Angela's just been my human angel. She had already been, what was it? Three years into your faith? Three years into her faith and, um, she showed me the Bible and she spoon-fed it to me every day, and it started healing my mind. And I come from a background that you needed to be on medication, you needed to do manifesting methods, you needed to go to psyches, you need to do all these things. And-
- AHAngela Halili
Align your chakras.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yup. And so she starts reading me the Bible and it completely started healing my mind. And so we went on this beautiful journey together of chasing Jesus. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like you've discovered something other than the sort of girls-gone-wild, uh, lifestyle that pop culture often pushes on young women. What, what do you think was missing there? What was it that was unfulfilling in everything that you'd done prev- 'cause you guys had career success, you know, an upward trajectory, the opportunity to do stuff, Hollywood, LA lifestyle. I'm sure that you could've become it girls in a different way. Mm, what was missing from that previous life?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah. I mean, yeah, we've definitely, um, gone the opposite direction of girls-gone-wild because anything that the world pushes onto you, and I'm sure you know this, like, there's just so much messaging from the media, from Hollywood, from the world, that is completely lifeless, that's completely, um, opposite to what it's offering you. Like, that world will be like, "This is liberating. Do this, wear this, be like this because this is freedom. This is liberating, liberating." But the truth is, it's actually the thing that keeps you in bondage. It's actually the thing that hurts you-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
... um, whereas Jesus sends a message that the world sees as, like, that's restricting, that's religious, that's legalistic, but really, He's like, "Actually, there's so much freedom in the safety that I offer when you live life the way that I call you to." And so for Ari and I, I mean, we both have, like, a journey with mental health, with anxiety, with obsessive compulsive disorder. I've been sober for five years after self-medicating with alcohol to help my anxiety. You know what I mean? Like, how many of us go through these vicious cycles of, like, self-help, trying to feel better and always coming up short? In fact, feeling worse than you did in the first place. Like, that's our whole story. And so, you know, the beautiful thing about Jesus is that once He gets ahold of your heart, He begins to speak truth and He begins to show you the truth about situations. And I remember early on in my faith, around, like, COVID time, I started to realize, like, there was just such a strong messaging from the world and you start to wonder, like, "Why are these things being pushed so hard? Like, what is really behind all of this?" And I really felt the Holy Spirit begin to tell me, like, "It is dark." Like, "They're pushing darkness and it's leading you to destruction."... come my way because I offer life, I offer peace. Like, there's one way that leads to darkness, truly, and there's one way that leads to light. And that might sound so weird to people who don't understand. Um, it might sound super religious, but take it from two girls that don't follow religion. Like, we follow Jesus. We follow the Bible, and it's not a religious thing. It's actually like, imagine frolicking in a field, like, completely happy in a sundress. You don't have to wear a sundress, but like-
- ARArielle Reitsma
(laughs)
- AHAngela Halili
... you know what I mean (laughs) . And it's just, like, a beautiful, beautiful life that He calls you to live.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah, it's weird. I think the, uh... I was thinking about how a normal life in maybe 1940, even as someone that wasn't particularly religious, would be, probably from a social perspective, super, super religious come 2025-
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
... that in the space of not very long, the level of sort of, uh, liberal social approaches-
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
... like how you're supposed to set your life up, what relationships are supposed to look like, maybe the way that the, the home is supposed to be constructed, a lot of that's changed. And I wonder how much of this is people who have found themselves sort of born into a culture that they just feel is quite mismatched for them. They're thinking, "Huh," like, "This just doesn't align with me and I'm not really too sure why."
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Uh, but there's an interesting dynamic going on right now. One in five American adults have left their childhood faith behind.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm. Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
But we also have more young people than ever before who are converting to some form of religion. So, the people that grew up with it are, uh, leaving it, and the people who grew up without it-
- AHAngela Halili
Right.
- ARArielle Reitsma
... are transitioning to it. And it's this sort of, I don't know, odd dance that's going on. I'm trying to work out-
- 11:05 – 24:36
Religion Versus A Relationship With God
- ARArielle Reitsma
- AHAngela Halili
How would you describe the difference between religion and a personal relationship with God or Jesus? 'Cause I hear people talk about this a lot, and I don't actually know what that means. Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
I don't know what the difference is. So, can you explain that to me?
- AHAngela Halili
Totally. So, I would describe religion as, you know, kind of what I grew up in where-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
... I didn't necessarily know Jesus on a personal level, where I... I mean, just to like get, get into the background of a little bit of theology, like the whole point of Jesus dying on a cross, right, was so that He could reconcile us back to God. In the beginning of time, you know about Adam and Eve, man fell, sin entered the world, and our relationship to God completely broke. Somebody had to pay the penalty for our sins, and Jesus came. God sent His son onto Earth to basically pay the price for our sins so that we could have a relationship with God back. And His whole point in coming onto Earth, doing what He did, dying on a cross, so w- would be so that we could communicate with Him directly. And so, religion is basically reading the Bible and being like, "Okay, A, B, C, and D, I can't do this, but I can do that," but you don't actually know why-You don't, you, it's, it's obedience without love, and obedience without love is completely... Like, it's, it's as if you're, like, being faithful to your spouse, not because you love them, just because you have to. That's miserable. Like, obedience without love is just really sad. And so that's what a moral religion is, versus an intimate relationship with Jesus-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
... where you're like, "Your heart is my heart. I love you because I know that you love me. And so now we do this dance together where..." The whole point of Christianity is to be made into the image of God. The Holy Spirit spends our entire lives sanctifying us so that we become like Jesus. We, like, develop the character of Jesus. We have the mind of Jesus. And in that way, like, we just serve Him wholeheartedly, and then that's where that relationship comes in. You know what I mean? It's birthed out of love.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
A- and it might sound crazy to a new believer, but I, we just encourage you to try it, to try it, because when Jesus gets ahold of your heart, you're gonna be like, "What have I been doing my whole life?" Like, the safety, the love, the protection, the favor, it's, it's, it changes you. It transforms you. You look d- You have to see videos of me, uh, two years ago. If you watch videos of me, you can, you watch me, and it's like I have no life behind my eyes. And you see me now, and it's like I look different. He transforms you. You, you walk around with a boldness not from the world, but a boldness of, like, "I have Jesus." Like, "I, I'm safe. I'm protected. I'm loved." What's better than that? You can't go wrong with that. It's safety.
- CWChris Williamson
So faith is an anxiety cure for you?
- AHAngela Halili
Faith is an anxiety cure. Yeah, (laughs) I guess you could say that.
- CWChris Williamson
D- do you have a certain denomination of Christianity that you guys subscribe to? I don't even know if that's the right way to put it when it comes to-
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... talking about what it is that you d- that you follow.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah, I'd say we're both completely non-denominational. I'd probably describe myself as, like, charismatic, which means you, basically you just believe in the gifts of the Spirit and, um...
- CWChris Williamson
That's a specific religious term.
- AHAngela Halili
I, I'm not saying I'm charismatic, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- AHAngela Halili
But, like, it's a term of charismatic. Like, you believe in the gifts of the Spirit.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- AHAngela Halili
Um, you have, like, a relationship and, like, a love for the Holy Spirit, which some denominations actually don't focus so much on the Holy Spirit.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Do you guys feel like you fit a, any standard sort of Christian mold at the moment? Is this an increasing cohort of people that are going to be having personal relationship with Jesus? Is this, is this something that you're going to see more of, do you think?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah. I think that's what the revival is that's happening. It's a personal relationship with Jesus.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
Where He's coming as a friend, a dad, and He's, He's everything. And so that's how... I mean, that's why revival is happening the way it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. On the religious revival thing, or the Christian revival perhaps, I wonder whether a bit of it is a firmer place for your wants or your needs to stand than just, "This feels good, bro." That if you are thrown into a culture that doesn't really feel like it aligns with you and you feel a little bit out of place and your justification for why you don't want to behave in this way, act in this way, have these particular beliefs, follow this type of trend, is just, "Uh, you know, like, just doesn't sort of suit me," that feels kind of flimsy. And especially if you're saying, "Well, look at all of the benefits that we've got from a progressive society and look at how, you know, the liberal values have really helped you to get to this stage," it just sounds like you're, uh, kind of dispensing with a lot of progress that's been made. Uh, whereas if you said, "Well, I'm, you know, I've got something that feels a little bit f-" It's a firmer place to stand.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I'm wondering whether that is... In a world where you can become anything that you want to be, that's liberating.
- AHAngela Halili
Hm.
- 24:36 – 31:11
What Do The Girls Gone Bible Believe About Sin?
- ARArielle Reitsma
- CWChris Williamson
What is sin in your understanding? Like why do people need saving from it?
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
Well, Kris, sin (laughs) is-
- ARArielle Reitsma
(laughs)
- AHAngela Halili
Sin is literally what Jesus died to overthrow. Sin, um, is what entered the world when... Basically, I describe it like this: We... There's an issue of will in the world. It's our will, or it's God's will. And you see it from the beginning of time. We have Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve chose their own will. God gave them everything that they would ever need or want. He gave them everything, and He said, "Just live in my will. Obey my will, and you will live a life of peace, and harmony, and beauty." And they were like, "Sorry, we want our will." Right? They ruined it for the rest of us. God bless them. And then we have Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane all those years later, and He redeemed everything that Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Jesus redeemed in the Garden of Gethsemane when He said, "Lord, not my will be done, but Yours be done." So it's this issue of will. So we get to choose which way we want to go. We get to choose whether we want God or whether we want sin, and sin is anything that goes against the natural order of the way that God designed things. Everything in this Bible that God taught... And again, it's not like rules and regulations. It's anything that separates you from God. And sin comes in a multitude. It's not just sexual sin, right? It's impurity in your heart. It's the words you speak. It's the things you do, lying, cheating. We have the Ten Commandments, like we all know those. Um, but it's more than just like the things you do. It's what's deep in your heart. Sin, we were born with sin, me, you, Ari, every single one of us in this room, and so we have to actively let the Holy Spirit for the rest of our lives sanctify us, and again, bring us back to our original image in God.
- ARArielle Reitsma
You mentioned that there was a tension between, uh, what girls are being encouraged to do, the way that they're encouraged to live their lives and show up, and what you think is a more wholesome lifestyle that you guys have gone into.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
What's that tension there? What, what are the issues with modern culture for women?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
What are modern cultures for women? (sniffs)
- AHAngela Halili
Um, what is the issue with-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Oh.
- AHAngela Halili
... for women in modern culture?
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah, I think that, you know, modern c- modern women now are like, "I don't wanna..." Sorry, my phone. Let me just put this on do not disturb. Um, modern culture says, "I don't wanna go by the rules. I wanna live how I wanna live. I don't wanna submit. Like, I wanna live by my own truth." Um, I think they read the Scriptures, "Wives, submit to your husbands," and they stop there, and they're like, "Wait a minute. I'm not doing that. I'm not submitting to him." But if you keep reading the Scripture, it says, "Men, love your wives as Christ loved the Church." What does that mean? Christ loved the Church. He died for the Church. So men have a way huger responsibility than women. Men have to love their women, have to be willing to die for them, right? And so-
- AHAngela Halili
Hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
... it's not... It's, it's this beautiful partnership of, "I'm gonna trust you, and I'm gonna submit to you because I'm trusting that you're going to love me like Christ loved the Church." So we look at it like it's weakness, like, "I have to submit to him, and I have to be weak." No, that's strength. That's me trusting you. That's humility and selflessness. And so I think just, it's been so misconstrued. And look, we don't wanna ever be doormats, right? If we're in a... Sometimes we make b- bad decisions. We get in the wrong (laughs) relationships, and we don't wanna ever take abuse, but that's why we choose wisely, and we choose, choose people that, that love us like Christ loved the Church, that would give their lives for us, you know?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Is that devotion piece why you think people are so unsatisfied with modern relationships? What, what's going wrong with modern relationships from your perspective?
- AHAngela Halili
Oh, Kris, what's gone wrong with modern relationships? (laughs)
- ARArielle Reitsma
I mean, we are here in LA, so this is-
- AHAngela Halili
Right? Yeah. Oh. (laughs)
- ARArielle Reitsma
... 100% where that goes. In LA, where do we start?
- AHAngela Halili
Can I just add one more thing to that? Because I think this is really important. There's just been such an over-sexualization of not even just women, women and men. Um, there, things have been truly so... So go drive around LA, look at the billboards. Everything is so overly sexualized. Um, and we live in a culture where that's glorified, glamorized, and again, they say like, "This is liberating," but really, it's the opposite. It's so true. And then w- in terms of dating, I think, of course, the progressive movement has m- tried to make this whole, like, men and women 50/50, um, we're equal sort of thing. And what's so beautiful about the original design of Jesus... You gotta read this book, Kris, I'm telling you, because it'll change your entire life, because you literally can read God's original design for man and woman, husband and wife, and you see how much it makes sense. You see why there's harmony. Men and women were not created 50/50. They're equal in value, yes, different in role, different in function, different in strengths. You know what I mean? It's not... Um, we literally have gotten into this thing in modern dating where we're like this. Men and women are against each other. We've pit women, women and men against each other, saying, "The future is female," and the poor men are like, "What about us?" You know what I mean? You're a man. I plan to hopefully have a son one day. I can't imagine my son having to live in a world where he's like, "The future's only female?" That doesn't even make sense. You know? It's just this whole progressive movement that creates so much confusion and so much division. Men and women were created to, like, work beautifully and harmoniously together, not against one another, but complementing one another. And so you see in dating...Men don't wanna be men, women don't wanna be women, and so everything is messed up. It's chaotic, and that's just the truth. You come into a beautiful, um, Jesus-loving, Godly relationship, and you see how beautifully it flows because you see a man be a provider, a protector. You see lay down his life the way that Christ died for the Church. And you see a woman be, like, a beautiful, nurturing, loving, building up type of woman, and it just flows. Why are we going against G- the natural design?
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
It's just insane.
- 31:11 – 44:40
The Modern Tension Between Faith & Femininity
- AHAngela Halili
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a tension, do you think, between faith and modern femininity? You've got some reconciliation that needs to happen between biblical womanhood and some of the progress that's been made to give women independence in the modern world.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think there's a tension going on there?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah, I mean, listen. Take it from two working women who have jobs, who are loved to work, and who are in ministry and love what we do, and, um, this whole... There's just, like, this pushing of hyper-independence that I think is so damaging. I think we were created as human beings first to be so dependent on God. Like, we are supposed to be hyper-dependent on Jesus, and then as women, we were created to be in surrender and in submission to a man's authority in marriage. Um, and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, and I think obviously we've lost that with, um, I'm not gonna speak on the entire progressive movement because I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not knowledgeable on all of it. I don't know everything, but from what I do understand, um, the one area that I see an issue is this, this place of hyper-independence. I think it's damaging. I think it's harmful. I think, um, being dependent on people that you love and trust is a beautiful thing. Take it from someone who's been hyper-dependent my whole life, and then following Jesus, getting into a relationship with a beautiful, Godly man who, I'm not married, so I'm not under anybody's authority, but, like, as it trends that way, you see the safety in a relationship like this, and it begins to make sense. I don't need to fight for power. I don't need power. I'm not looking... Jesus didn't even fight for power.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
I don't need power.
- ARArielle Reitsma
But we do understand from a- that other side because I remember being in relationships and feeling like, "I have to fend for myself. I need to work. I can't depend on him. The minute he takes it away, I'm gonna be left alone, and he, and I'm gonna be..." Like, every, I remember being in a relationship, the minute something went wrong, he'd pull it away. You know what I mean?
- AHAngela Halili
Wow.
- ARArielle Reitsma
And so, I felt, I remember feeling like, "Well, I have to take care of myself." My mom taught me, "You better have your own 'cause anyone could leave at any time."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
So, there is that other side where we have so much compassion. We do understand-
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
... because the world is crazy. I'm single right now. Dating is, it's, it's very hard to find good men (laughs) these days. You know? Like, a good... So, I do, we do see the other side of women are scared. They are. And so, we have so much compassion as well.
- CWChris Williamson
It's all well and good talking about, in an ideal world, this is how the design was previously set. We have a book that explains it. This is a good blueprint for you to follow. Practicality comes along, and people have painful relationships-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... painful breakups.
- AHAngela Halili
Totally.
- CWChris Williamson
They're left kind of adrift.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Women are financial prisoners-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or, you know, uh, no longer financially independent-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... so they have to stay in relationships they don't wanna be a part of.
- AHAngela Halili
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think it sounds fantastic in principle, but I wonder whether in the modern world, it's compatible in practice. And I wonder, uh, th- there's obviously gonna be a difficulty-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for some people to commit to something like that 'cause they'll think, "Well, this makes me very vulnerable."
- 44:40 – 47:01
What Do Women Want From Men?
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned earlier on, you're on, on, the hunt in some form or another, maybe passively, maybe actively. What do women really want from men? What do they actually want in a man?
- ARArielle Reitsma
What do men really want from women?
- CWChris Williamson
What do women-
- ARArielle Reitsma
What do women really want from men?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
We wanna feel safe. Um, we wanna feel protected. We want to feel, um... We wanna know that you're... You know Jesus, because just being in this Christian walk, I realize that unless y- if you don't know Jesus, you're just not anchored. And I don't mean that to put people down. I really don't, because I have many friends who are not religious, but I know that when I didn't have Jesus, I was so lost. I didn't know. I, I, I acted on emotion. I just didn't know. So, for me, like, I need someone who is rooted, who is anchored, and the only way that you're truly anchored is if you're... If you have Jesus. And I'm sor- and I, and I don't, I don't mean that in a, in a harsh way. I really don't, but I have to come from a place of what, how I, how it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Um...
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether part of that is a reason for men increasingly turning to the church, that they feel like... You know, women feel displaced in some ways, but I think especially over the last 10 years or so, which is when this change has happened, I wonder whether guys are doing that. But I also wonder whether it's guys that are thinking, "If I want to show up and find a partner that I can build a family with, something doesn't speak to me about what's happening in the current pop culture."
- AHAngela Halili
Of course.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"And I'm gonna find a different cohort, a different group of people to maybe try and build this around."
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah. And I know, and it's just g- and I just want to add one, one more thing. I know when your eyes are on Jesus, because again, it goes back to we are all flawed, we have so much pride and ego and sin, that I know if you're truly focused on Jesus, you're go- gonna be so focused that you're gonna, every day, crucify yourself and to do the right thing, because it, the truth is, is relationships are hard. It's hard to, in the modern world now, where we're in relationships, where there's A, B, C, D, where you can go on an app, you can... You're with someone for two, three years, and you're like, "You know what? I wanna try something new." But if you're really devoted to Jesus, you're gonna, you're, you're different. You're, you're not gonna be, you know?
- AHAngela Halili
100%.
- 47:01 – 55:38
Balancing Humility & Spreading A Message
- AHAngela Halili
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you worried about this, uh, opportunity in religious revival, the vacuousness and, and hollowness that some people are finding in pop culture opening up a gap in the market for people who don't truly believe to step in, to commercialize that, to sort of turn it into, uh... I mean, there's been pastors since the beginning of time that have sort of financially capitalized on their followings and stuff.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that something that you guys are concerned about, about people sort of seeing openings where they can take advantage of that?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah. Um, I would say, this is something I actually talk about all the time, because it's a really interesting time, where I'm sure you know, being on the internet, that Christian content, like Christianity has become super trendy. Um, there's more Christian podcasts, obviously, than ever. There's a lot of Christian content that's created and pushed. And on one hand, it's the most beautiful thing in the world. We have a podcast where we know we have countless, hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of people who have come to Jesus through a podcast. It's incredible. People who have never opened up a Bible in their lives will hear scripture, will hear the word of God on a 30-second reel. You know what I mean? This is incredible. And Christianity is not supposed to be relatable. It's actually not supposed to be trendy. Christianity, the Gospel, Jesus, is actually incredibly offensive, because it goes against our natural hardwiring as humans. Like, it should be offensive. It shouldn't be that trendy. We, we wanna be relatable so that people can relate to us and say, "Oh, I see myself in them."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
"Maybe Jesus can do that for me." But we don't want to water down Christianity to be relatable. That's not the point. So, there's something interesting about how there is power in Christian content being pushed and all of that. And it...I could argue, like, that the cross of Christ loses power when it becomes trendy-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
... because there's something so, like, there's nothing heavier, more weighty than the Gospel of Jesus. And so, to water it down to something for financial gain is obviously really scary.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Well, I imagine there's got to be a, a tension between wanting to be successful with your show and the need for humility, so i- you know, this balance between boldness and humility as Christian influencers.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Trying to get a message across whilst also having this personal relationship and d- doing your own transformation thing and wanting to tell other people about something that's really meaningful to you whilst not, um, perverting the message.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Is that a tension that you guys have to navigate?
- AHAngela Halili
Um, I just, I think the connection between boldness and humility is so beautiful because they're not in opposition to one another. Jesus literally embodies bo- both boldness and humility at the same time. Like, he is so humble, so low, the lowest, the most humble man that's ever walked the face of the Earth and the absolute most bold person to have ever lived. Like, literally went and spoke a message to people who would try to kill him for it, and he did not care, and he never stopped. He is literally humility and boldness, and the scripture describes him as, like, the lion and the lamb at the same time. Like, that is, like, the dichotomy of Jesus is so beautiful.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
Um, and that's what true masculinity is. Like, it's not this alpha, uh, be strong, work out, and get a lot of girls. Like, that is not what masculinity is. Masculinity, true masculinity, is first of all, the face of Jesus, a wounded man on a cross that reigns in Heaven for the rest of eternity, and it's being a lion and a lamb at the same time.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah. And I just... And listen, there's been times where, you know, we're... Everybody loves, like, a good job and we're trying to be bold and we're trying to... We're like, "Did I do a good job?" But the minute we put our eyes on ourselves and take it off of Jesus, we've, we've missed it, and I think that's what a lot of people do. So it's constantly looking at Jesus, being bold, and being like, every th- the th- we're not here to serve ourselves, we're here to serve Jesus. And I think- Mm-hmm. ... my whole life, I was self-serving myself. How can I get from A to B? I wanna be this. I wanna make something of myself.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
And I had gotten it all wrong. And so what a gift that I don't have to go by my own strength anymore. I don't have to, like, try to be something and try to get the approval of others, which sometimes I do. I'm not gonna sit here and say that I'm perfect. I h- I do sometimes, but it's a constant, "Wait a minute. This isn't about me. This is about you." So it's a constant keeping your eyes on Jesus and remember who we're glorifying. It's not ourselves. It's Jesus. A- and that's where you get boldness. Yeah. When it comes to sharing your testimony online, do you find it difficult to sort of balance over-sharing versus transparency? You know, it must be hard to not feel an incentive to be performative with a private transformation because it's something that's so important to you.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
But also, you've got to navigate your own thing, and you don't want to have these incentives come and tempt you to, uh, over-egg or fall out of touch with what's actually going on. But then there is, you know, a few million people that are hanging on your every word about what the most recent update is in your faith.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah. Um, I mean, it really, for me personally, boils down to my relationship with the Holy Spirit. I am very, very careful because... So our time with Jesus is called the secret place. Like, where I'm supposed to meet Jesus in the secret place. Wherever that is for you, you get down on your knees or you sit on your couch or you sit on your bed at whatever time of the day, usually the morning, and you go, and that's your time where you meet with Jesus. And what happens in the secret place is secret, right? It's like, you have conversations with God that nobody hears about, like, it's meant to be private. And then there are things that happen in the secret place that I believe the Lord allows you to share, and there's a lot that he doesn't want me to share. And I know the difference by the voice of the Holy Spirit. I can tell when something is for me. I can tell when something is for me to share. Um, I feel a heavy convi- conviction not to minister from a, from a broken place. It's okay I am broken. It's okay to be broken, but I never wanna minister from a broken place. I don't want to be fully bleeding, um, because I just believe that maybe... I believe that the Lord cares about me more than he cares about what I can do for him, so he doesn't need me to bleed out at the cost of myself. And so that's how I measure what I share and what I don't share. It is very... This is probably the most important thing for me personally, is that, like, "Lord, is this okay for me to share?" I'm not about to go tell our... It's like if you and your spouse or me and my spouse have a conversation that's so incredibly private and intimate, and I'm just like going out and telling 100,000 people.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
You know? It's the same thing.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think for me, I think it's a little bit different for me.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- ARArielle Reitsma
I think that my testimony... So when I started the podcast, I had just started reading the Bible. I knew nothing. (laughs) I was like, "I know that Jesus saved my life, and I don't know any scriptures." Angela was the biblical one. But, um, I came... I h- I, all I had was my heart, and so I (laughs) would just, like, bleed out. Um, I remember being like, "You better get another co-host 'cause I don't... I'm not doing this." Like, I had this facade up my whole life on, on social media. You w- would've thought I was Princess Diana with the way I acted. (laughs) Like, you would've thought my life was perfect. Mm-hmm. And to be so vulnerable and to talk about my mental health and suicidal thoughts and all these things was really difficult. I remember I got a message from a girl and she was like, "I almost took my life, and because of you guys' podcasts, I didn't, because I felt seen." And so every time I go on there and I'm scared, I'm like...This is really hard, but Lord, I always check in with Him and I'm like, "What can I say to reach your people to make-"
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- 55:38 – 1:03:18
What To Do When Your Past Is Weaponised
- ARArielle Reitsma
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It definitely seems like anyone who takes the religious pivot gets a lot of scrutiny online. And you guys have got lives from before and you've got lives now, and the lives now are significantly more public and presumably a lot more scrutinized.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you handle moments when your past gets resurfaced against you?
- AHAngela Halili
My... Well, I look at a man nailed to a cross (laughs) and I'm like, yeah. There's just something so, um, beautiful about life with Jesus because you can't have a testimony of Jesus without the past, without your past. And I think, uh, it's a really interesting, like, idea that you would weaponize somebody's past against them because you can't weaponize somebody's past against them as a Christian, because that's literally the testimony of Jesus. We have Saul to Paul, one of the most prolific and important people, impactful people of the entire Bible. What would Paul be without Saul? Like, who would he be? W- we wouldn't have the testimony of Jesus in his life if we didn't know about the Saul that was literally killing Christians, crucifying every... He was in direct opposition to everything that Jesus taught and was. And so if Paul, like, cleaned up his past and didn't want anyone to know about it, we wouldn't have 60% of the New Testament. You know what I mean? So it's a really interesting thing if someone tries to weaponize it against you, because it's like, hello, it's literally death to life. It's literally the most beautiful thing. The sin is not beautiful. The dark past is not beautiful. But what Jesus does, how He truly takes dead things and brings them to life, and He completely takes somebody's life and turns it upside down and flips it on its head, and they become new people from the inside out. You can't have that without your past. So if someone's- Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... weaponizing your past (laughs) , it's like, great. Actually tell more people so they know-
- AHAngela Halili
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... the power of Jesus.
- ARArielle Reitsma
But I think, and I think the other thing we've tried our best to do on our journey is to always be honest.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Because what's done in the dark will always come to light. And we do not hide that we've had a past. And even... And we've let people down sometimes, but we, Angela and I always try to always be honest. And, um, so yeah, we... I think that's a big one, being honest with our past.
- AHAngela Halili
So authentic. So honest, you have to be.
- CWChris Williamson
Is going viral with face-based content a blessing or a burden for you guys? Like, I imagine it's hard to navigate internet fame and keep a spiritual grounding-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... at the same time.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Great question. It's been the biggest blessing. It has been the biggest blessing of our lives being able to gr-... Like, the difference between us and a pastor is that we... They've grown with us. They've seen our transformation and they've grown with us. On the other hand, I'll just speak for myself, I don't wanna speak for you, Ang., um, usually people build a foundation before they come into ministry.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ARArielle Reitsma
We, unquote-unquote, had success overnight and we were catapulted very fast. Like, I don't even know. It, it happened so fast. Sometimes I'm like, "W- where are we (laughs) you know?" Um, so sometimes I feel like I have no place to stand on. I don't have all-
- CWChris Williamson
What legitimates me being here? Where is my ex-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I've got it-
- ARArielle Reitsma
I don't have all the answers. I, I'm still trying to figure it out. I'm still trying to... I, I still fall. I fall short of God's glory every day. I am so imperfect. I'm so flawed. I've had to unlearn so many things that I've been accustomed to since I was a little girl. I'm, like, relearning. I feel like I'm a, a young girl all over again. Like, I literally have to rewire my brain, unlearn things while still teach young girls and even older girls. And so sometimes I'll be standing there and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm doing (laughs) ," you know? So I think that it's been such a blessing, but incredibly weighty at the same time. Is that, is that a, a word? Weighty?
- AHAngela Halili
It's weighty, girl.
- ARArielle Reitsma
Weighty.
- AHAngela Halili
It's weighty. (laughs)
- ARArielle Reitsma
So, yeah.
- AHAngela Halili
It is. (laughs)
- ARArielle Reitsma
And so, um, yeah, I think...
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah. I mean, there's... It's... I would never describe it as a burden. It's not a burden. It's a blessing and there's a cost to it, you know? There's a cost to being a Christian in general, first and foremost. And then there's a major cost to being in ministry. And like, um, we have the podcast, and then we are on tour. We do live events. It's ministry in person, and we pray over incredibly broken, desperate people who need help, who need Jesus. And so it's... They're so much weight to it, but it is the greatest blessing of our lives. And I think one more thing that I'll add to that is like, you know what missionary work is, right? Like, missions trips. Like, you go to different places in the world, or even in America, and you basically just help establish culture and, like, a church environment and help people in different, you know, um, ethnic groups and different places in the world. And I heard of this story of this couple in Brazil who have this base, and they basically bring in, like, a bunch of people, a bunch of believers, and they go out into these communities and they just help them, impoverished people, gang members. Like, they evangelize, preach the gospel, all this stuff. And they have, like, a rule basically that's like for all the people o- on their base, if you didn't, for some reason, get time with the Lord, if you didn't spend time with Jesus, don't even go out there. Just go spend time with Jesus. Don't even come out that day because it is not worth you coming out in your own strength, in your own might...... if you don't have Jesus to offer them, you don't have anything to offer. So for us, like, I'll speak for myself personally, if I don't spend time with Jesus, I have nothing to offer in a microphone.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 1:03:18 – 1:12:06
What Is Chris’s Relationship With Faith?
- CWChris Williamson
I've said this before, there's a line in Angels and Demons, the movie by Dan Brown.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You've seen it?
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's got Ewan McGregor in it and Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks is playing the professor, and he's trying to get down into the Vatican archives to get access to some- something. Uh, there's a bomb gonna go off, and he needs to get down there and see Leonardo da Vinci's secret scripts or whatever. And the pope's died, so it's the Camerlengo, which is paid, uh, played by Ewan McGregor.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And he says, "I need to get down here." The Camerlengo turns to him, he says, uh, "Do you believe, Professor?" And he starts giving a politician's answer-
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and he says, "Well, you know, uh, uh, uh, w- we need to define what we mean by faith, uh, blah, blah, blah," so on and so forth. He says, "I didn't ask that."
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"I asked if you believed." And he turns straight to the camera and he goes, "Faith is a gift that I'm yet to be given."
- AHAngela Halili
Mm. Um, you said that to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I just, I'm completely open to it.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But, uh, Alex O'Connor, good friend of mine, we've had a lot of conversations about religion, uh, I can't remember, I think the line is from Chesterton where he says, uh, "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has, uh, been found hard and not tried."
- AHAngela Halili
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, found difficult and not tried.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think, I don't know, I'm, I'm completely open to it, but it's something that, as of yet, hasn't come into my life.
- AHAngela Halili
Are you, do you feel fulfilled-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- AHAngela Halili
... in life? You do?
- CWChris Williamson
I do.
- AHAngela Halili
Do you feel a longing in your spirit, like you're looking for something?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I would say so, but I wonder how much of that is just part and parcel of being a human.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I suppose that when it comes to someone who has found a higher purpose, like you guys have, that if that longing goes away, my assumption that, well, you know, like, uh, there's a translation from Buddhism that says, uh, uh, "Life is unsatisfactoriness." Life is unsatisfactoriness, that inherent in life is this sense of longing, this sense of lack, this sense of-
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of, uh, something that's been, that's missing.
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- 1:12:06 – 1:22:11
Why Is Atheism Not Cool Anymore?
- CWChris Williamson
over the last, what, three decades since we'll have been consuming stuff on the internet to do with religion, it would've only been 20 years ago that it would've been super cool to have been an atheist, that that was kind of the trendy-
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... world to be in, that it was sort of rationality. It was Richard Dawkins. It was Sam Harris. It was Daniel Dennett. It was Christopher Hitchens. It was, you know, owns pastor debunks story from the Bible, so on and so forth. And, uh, I think certainly in my teenage years, that was like, it was trendy. It was kind of, um, revolutionary.
- AHAngela Halili
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it felt rebellious in a way. It was, um, forward-thinking. It was forthcoming. It was rational. It was scientific. And you sort of roll the clock forward to now, and I wonder... One of the problems, I think, is that humans aren't really very well-constructed to understand statistics-
- ARArielle Reitsma
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and numbers. We live in narrative and personification and archetype and story and good and bad and evil and characters. And this is, again, from my friend, Alex, who did philosophy and theology at Oxford, so he's way smarter than me. Um, and he explained, "Well, what you're asking people to do is let go of the thing which, to them, feels most real-"
- AHAngela Halili
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... which is personification, story, narrative, archetype..."... characters. Good, bad. Why does this happen? It's like a- as- as a- a pro-social, uh, relational understanding of how things came to be. You're telling them to get rid of the thing which to them feels the most real-
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and to start to rely on, "Well, look at all of these facts- facts and numbers and statistics that we've got here." And even if you were to say, "Well, yeah, but, you know, the scientific method's really, really reliable."
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Like, it's the entire reason that it's here. Look at all of the great advances that we've had. Look at all of the stuff that's around us because of what we've done." It's like, yeah, I understand that, but there's a difference between something being literally true and functionally true.
- AHAngela Halili
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And a lot of the time, I wonder... I had a conversation with Richard Dawkins about this very thing. You know, world's most famous atheist, probably. And as I'm sat there, he's explaining about how, you know, "I- I don't really have time..." Obviously, he's very critical of religion. "I don't really have time to sort of indulge people's fantasies or their delusions and stuff." I'm like, "I get that, but even if you don't believe, you have to understand why people do believe, and it's because what you're offering, uh, as an alternative is just not very compelling." Like, it's not fulfilling to have, "Well, yeah, but let me explain to you about how this study worked, and look at the R0 number, and we can-"
- AHAngela Halili
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... can we... You know, it's a statistically significant value." And you go, "I- I- I get that, but the explanation just doesn't fit into the human mind as well as something that is a little bit more, um, in heritage."
- AHAngela Halili
I love that you say that so much. Go ahead.
- NANarrator
Oh, no.
- AHAngela Halili
I- I'm obsessed with this conversation, but I'm also obsessed with what you said a second ago about atheism. Can we talk about that really quick, about how I talk about this all the time, how back in the day, how atheism was just like it was the way to go, it was the way to rebel. And I think because of the liberal and progressive movement that went so far the other way, so far, like, freedom, liberation, dye your hair, get tattoos, be whatever you want, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff, it went so far that way that people are like, "Okay, getting, like, a sleeve of tattoos and dying my hair blue is no longer rebellious. I'm gonna become a devout Catholic-"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
"... because that's what re- what's rebellious these days."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAngela Halili
Like, truly, I mean, it went so far the other way that I just- I just love that conversation. I think that's so interesting. And just like what you said a second ago, anybody who would boil down, like, the existence of humanity to whatever theories they have, the Big Bang, whatever it might be, and, um, basically boil it down to nothing and give no real foundational, functional answer to why we exist, why we're here, the intricacies in how we were made as human beings, the way our brains work, the synchronicities of life. Like...
Episode duration: 1:39:36
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