Is Church The New Counterculture? - Girls Gone Bible (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 Talk to me about what you think is driving this religious revival among young people at the moment.

Angela Halili 0:05 Okay. Well, I think what's driving it is the spirit of God Himself. I think that, um, you know, we are in such an interesting time in history right now where it is basically what seems like, um, the generation of the internet and AI and social media, and at the same time, you literally have God, you have Jesus infiltrating the entire Earth with His spirit and, like, reviving people's hearts, um, towards spirituality. And that's why I feel like you see a, a rise in all of spirituality at the moment, and it is like the Holy Spirit coming and stirring everybody's hearts. And right now, specifically in southern California and in so many different parts, in the UK, so many different parts of the world, um, we all just know that the Lord is really getting ready to pour out His spirit in a way that we haven't seen it in a long time.

Chris Williamson 0:59 What do you think's missing-

Angela Halili 1:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00 ... from pop culture?

Angela Halili 1:02 Were you gonna say something?

Arielle Reitsma 1:02 Well, I just wanted to add onto that that I think why revival's coming is because everyone's realizing that all these things aren't working anymore. Everyone is depressed. Everyone is anxious. Everyone is trying to fill a void.

Angela Halili 1:15 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 1:15 And the only thing that can fill that void is Jesus, and that's just the truth. And so I think everybody's trying to do all these things and they're like, "Wait a minute. I still feel so empty." And so then they come into a relationship with Jesus and they're like, "Wait a minute. Okay." And so I know that's our story. We were always so lost and empty, and, um, we tried everything. And then that's when we found Jesus and He filled that void that was always missing, so.

Chris Williamson 1:44 What's the story of how you two met? What's the arc of how you ended up getting here?

Arielle Reitsma 1:49 Oh, this is my favorite story. Um, my life was just in shambles. I was severely depressed. I was just... I was, like, on my way out. I, that's how depressed I was. My mind completely broke. Um, I spent my whole life trying to fill the void and other things, and I always came up feeling very empty and alone and lost. I come from darkness. I come from the world. Um, and I hit a wall, and I was just on my way out. I met Jesus in a little Catholic church by my house and, um, my... I don't come from a, a household of faith and so I remember calling my family and being like, "I think I just found God." And they're like, "What? All right, Ariel. You've gone crazy." And so I would sit in the, in the pews in this little church and I would sit there for hours and just cry out to Jesus and be like, "Help me." I, I was... I didn't feel adequate in the church, not that it's the church's fault, but I come from a, I don't come from a religious household so I'd been praying fervently, "Would you bring me a friend that is cut from the same cloth that can help me, that can do this walk with me, that can, you know, hold my hand through this?" Five months later, I meet Angela at a job. I was crying in my hands. I was, like, struggling so much, and she took my hand. I didn't even know she was there. I looked over at her and I was like, "Is that an angel?" (laughs) And, yeah. Angela's just been my human angel. She had already been, what was it? Three years into your faith? Three years into her faith and, um, she showed me the Bible and she spoon-fed it to me every day, and it started healing my mind. And I come from a background that you needed to be on medication, you needed to do manifesting methods, you needed to go to psyches, you need to do all these things. And-

Angela Halili 3:40 Align your chakras.

Arielle Reitsma 3:41 Yup. And so she starts reading me the Bible and it completely started healing my mind. And so we went on this beautiful journey together of chasing Jesus. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:53 It seems like you've discovered something other than the sort of girls-gone-wild, uh, lifestyle that pop culture often pushes on young women. What, what do you think was missing there? What was it that was unfulfilling in everything that you'd done prev- 'cause you guys had career success, you know, an upward trajectory, the opportunity to do stuff, Hollywood, LA lifestyle. I'm sure that you could've become it girls in a different way. Mm, what was missing from that previous life?

Angela Halili 4:19 Yeah. I mean, yeah, we've definitely, um, gone the opposite direction of girls-gone-wild because anything that the world pushes onto you, and I'm sure you know this, like, there's just so much messaging from the media, from Hollywood, from the world, that is completely lifeless, that's completely, um, opposite to what it's offering you. Like, that world will be like, "This is liberating. Do this, wear this, be like this because this is freedom. This is liberating, liberating." But the truth is, it's actually the thing that keeps you in bondage. It's actually the thing that hurts you-

Chris Williamson 4:56 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 4:56 ... um, whereas Jesus sends a message that the world sees as, like, that's restricting, that's religious, that's legalistic, but really, He's like, "Actually, there's so much freedom in the safety that I offer when you live life the way that I call you to." And so for Ari and I, I mean, we both have, like, a journey with mental health, with anxiety, with obsessive compulsive disorder. I've been sober for five years after self-medicating with alcohol to help my anxiety. You know what I mean? Like, how many of us go through these vicious cycles of, like, self-help, trying to feel better and always coming up short? In fact, feeling worse than you did in the first place. Like, that's our whole story. And so, you know, the beautiful thing about Jesus is that once He gets ahold of your heart, He begins to speak truth and He begins to show you the truth about situations. And I remember early on in my faith, around, like, COVID time, I started to realize, like, there was just such a strong messaging from the world and you start to wonder, like, "Why are these things being pushed so hard? Like, what is really behind all of this?" And I really felt the Holy Spirit begin to tell me, like, "It is dark." Like, "They're pushing darkness and it's leading you to destruction."... come my way because I offer life, I offer peace. Like, there's one way that leads to darkness, truly, and there's one way that leads to light. And that might sound so weird to people who don't understand. Um, it might sound super religious, but take it from two girls that don't follow religion. Like, we follow Jesus. We follow the Bible, and it's not a religious thing. It's actually like, imagine frolicking in a field, like, completely happy in a sundress. You don't have to wear a sundress, but like-

Arielle Reitsma 6:36 (laughs)

Angela Halili 6:36 ... you know what I mean (laughs) . And it's just, like, a beautiful, beautiful life that He calls you to live.

Arielle Reitsma 6:43 Yeah, it's weird. I think the, uh... I was thinking about how a normal life in maybe 1940, even as someone that wasn't particularly religious, would be, probably from a social perspective, super, super religious come 2025-

Angela Halili 6:59 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 6:59 ... that in the space of not very long, the level of sort of, uh, liberal social approaches-

Angela Halili 7:07 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 7:07 ... like how you're supposed to set your life up, what relationships are supposed to look like, maybe the way that the, the home is supposed to be constructed, a lot of that's changed. And I wonder how much of this is people who have found themselves sort of born into a culture that they just feel is quite mismatched for them. They're thinking, "Huh," like, "This just doesn't align with me and I'm not really too sure why."

Angela Halili 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 7:24 Uh, but there's an interesting dynamic going on right now. One in five American adults have left their childhood faith behind.

Angela Halili 7:32 Mm. Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 7:32 But we also have more young people than ever before who are converting to some form of religion. So, the people that grew up with it are, uh, leaving it, and the people who grew up without it-

Angela Halili 7:43 Right.

Arielle Reitsma 7:43 ... are transitioning to it. And it's this sort of, I don't know, odd dance that's going on. I'm trying to work out-

Angela Halili 7:47 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 7:47 ... what's happening there.

Angela Halili 7:48 That's so special. It's so, it's so true, and I've noticed that too, how it's like, I mean, the younger generation right now is absolutely, like, they're exploding with faith. And I think, like the generation above us, they just went through so much. They went through so much in their lifetime. I think about my parents' generation, your parents' generation. A lot of them, maybe yours as well, they kind of lived in survival mode a lot of the time. Um, they didn't have the resources we did. They didn't have the access to therapy, and you know, just like any sort of way to be introspective. Like, they didn't have that the way that we do. So, I think while they were just trying to survive, we have a generation where because we have so many resources and because so many people's hearts are just on fire and open to spirituality, that like, we wanna thrive at this point. We don't wanna just survive. So, I think that's the difference.

Arielle Reitsma 8:41 Yeah, it's, it's... I think it's so many things, but I also think it's, a lot of it is shame.

Angela Halili 8:46 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 8:46 I think people feel so shameful that they're like... And I, and I'm saying this because this is how I felt. I was like, "I'm too far gone to even step into a church. I've, have too much of a past." Like-

Angela Halili 8:59 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 8:59 ... "Why would Jesus accept me?" And so, they are in bondage and shame that they can't even face Jesus. But I wanna just remind people that when I met Jesus, it was not when I had it all together. (laughs) I met Jesus when I was, I couldn't even clean myself up-

Angela Halili 9:17 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 9:17 ... when I was in sin, when I was in the pit of hell. And He literally took me, and He took me out of the pit of hell, and He brought me to life. And people need to know that's who Jesus is, but people look at it as, "This is a religion. This is too religious. He's giving me rigid, rigid rules and all these things." And what I wanna tell people is like, "No, if you understood Jesus, that He's your dad, that He's slow to get angry and He, and He..." Like, I'm, I have my Bible open right now, "The Lord is compassionate and merciful. He's slow to get angry and He's filled with unfailing love." Like, this is who Jesus is. He's, He's dad. He loves you. Y- um, what else does it say? It says that He has removed our sins as far as... "He has removed our sins as far from us as the east is from the west." That's how much like, we feel like because we've sinned, like, we can't come to Jesus-

Angela Halili 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 10:11 ... and it's like, no, Jesus loves us through that. Like-

Angela Halili 10:15 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 10:15 ... so yeah. I just, people need to know like, this isn't just a book of rigid rules. It's relationship, and He loves you through everything. And He's, He's sitting there like, "Come to me. Like, come to me. I'm here for you. Like, come in my arms and w- and I'll bring you to life."

Angela Halili 10:30 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 10:30 And yeah, so...

Angela Halili 10:32 Anybody who subscribes to a religion based on morality is gonna fall away.

Arielle Reitsma 10:38 Yeah.

Angela Halili 10:38 You know what I mean? Like, you can only... Like, it's such a deeply, deeply spiritual thing. Um, it's an intimate relationship with a person. Like, I know that sounds crazy-

Arielle Reitsma 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 10:48 ... but Jesus is a person who speaks, lives, breathes today. And so, yeah, a lot of our parents, a lot of the older generation, like they just had these, this religion, this construct of morality, and there's just no life in that.

Arielle Reitsma 11:04 Yeah.

Angela Halili 11:05 How would you describe the difference between religion and a personal relationship with God or Jesus? 'Cause I hear people talk about this a lot, and I don't actually know what that means. Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 11:15 I don't know what the difference is. So, can you explain that to me?

Angela Halili 11:18 Totally. So, I would describe religion as, you know, kind of what I grew up in where-

Arielle Reitsma 11:23 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 11:23 ... I didn't necessarily know Jesus on a personal level, where I... I mean, just to like get, get into the background of a little bit of theology, like the whole point of Jesus dying on a cross, right, was so that He could reconcile us back to God. In the beginning of time, you know about Adam and Eve, man fell, sin entered the world, and our relationship to God completely broke. Somebody had to pay the penalty for our sins, and Jesus came. God sent His son onto Earth to basically pay the price for our sins so that we could have a relationship with God back. And His whole point in coming onto Earth, doing what He did, dying on a cross, so w- would be so that we could communicate with Him directly. And so, religion is basically reading the Bible and being like, "Okay, A, B, C, and D, I can't do this, but I can do that," but you don't actually know why-You don't, you, it's, it's obedience without love, and obedience without love is completely... Like, it's, it's as if you're, like, being faithful to your spouse, not because you love them, just because you have to. That's miserable. Like, obedience without love is just really sad. And so that's what a moral religion is, versus an intimate relationship with Jesus-

Chris Williamson 12:39 Yeah.

Angela Halili 12:39 ... where you're like, "Your heart is my heart. I love you because I know that you love me. And so now we do this dance together where..." The whole point of Christianity is to be made into the image of God. The Holy Spirit spends our entire lives sanctifying us so that we become like Jesus. We, like, develop the character of Jesus. We have the mind of Jesus. And in that way, like, we just serve Him wholeheartedly, and then that's where that relationship comes in. You know what I mean? It's birthed out of love.

Chris Williamson 13:09 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 13:09 A- and it might sound crazy to a new believer, but I, we just encourage you to try it, to try it, because when Jesus gets ahold of your heart, you're gonna be like, "What have I been doing my whole life?" Like, the safety, the love, the protection, the favor, it's, it's, it changes you. It transforms you. You look d- You have to see videos of me, uh, two years ago. If you watch videos of me, you can, you watch me, and it's like I have no life behind my eyes. And you see me now, and it's like I look different. He transforms you. You, you walk around with a boldness not from the world, but a boldness of, like, "I have Jesus." Like, "I, I'm safe. I'm protected. I'm loved." What's better than that? You can't go wrong with that. It's safety.

Chris Williamson 13:54 So faith is an anxiety cure for you?

Angela Halili 13:57 Faith is an anxiety cure. Yeah, (laughs) I guess you could say that.

Chris Williamson 14:02 D- do you have a certain denomination of Christianity that you guys subscribe to? I don't even know if that's the right way to put it when it comes to-

Angela Halili 14:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:08 ... talking about what it is that you d- that you follow.

Angela Halili 14:10 Yeah, I'd say we're both completely non-denominational. I'd probably describe myself as, like, charismatic, which means you, basically you just believe in the gifts of the Spirit and, um...

Chris Williamson 14:20 That's a specific religious term.

Angela Halili 14:22 I, I'm not saying I'm charismatic, like-

Chris Williamson 14:24 Right.

Angela Halili 14:24 But, like, it's a term of charismatic. Like, you believe in the gifts of the Spirit.

Chris Williamson 14:27 Okay.

Angela Halili 14:28 Um, you have, like, a relationship and, like, a love for the Holy Spirit, which some denominations actually don't focus so much on the Holy Spirit.

Chris Williamson 14:36 Mm. Do you guys feel like you fit a, any standard sort of Christian mold at the moment? Is this an increasing cohort of people that are going to be having personal relationship with Jesus? Is this, is this something that you're going to see more of, do you think?

Angela Halili 14:51 Yeah. I think that's what the revival is that's happening. It's a personal relationship with Jesus.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Yeah.

Angela Halili 14:55 Where He's coming as a friend, a dad, and He's, He's everything. And so that's how... I mean, that's why revival is happening the way it is.

Chris Williamson 15:05 Mm. On the religious revival thing, or the Christian revival perhaps, I wonder whether a bit of it is a firmer place for your wants or your needs to stand than just, "This feels good, bro." That if you are thrown into a culture that doesn't really feel like it aligns with you and you feel a little bit out of place and your justification for why you don't want to behave in this way, act in this way, have these particular beliefs, follow this type of trend, is just, "Uh, you know, like, just doesn't sort of suit me," that feels kind of flimsy. And especially if you're saying, "Well, look at all of the benefits that we've got from a progressive society and look at how, you know, the liberal values have really helped you to get to this stage," it just sounds like you're, uh, kind of dispensing with a lot of progress that's been made. Uh, whereas if you said, "Well, I'm, you know, I've got something that feels a little bit f-" It's a firmer place to stand.

Angela Halili 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:57 And I'm wondering whether that is... In a world where you can become anything that you want to be, that's liberating.

Angela Halili 16:03 Hm.

Chris Williamson 16:03 But it's also really intimidating because you have to choose, from first principles, I'm gonna decide every single day, what do I value first? How do I go about my life? What should a relationship look like? How should I behave with my parents? How should I show up in work? What's a friendship?

Angela Halili 16:16 Right.

Chris Williamson 16:16 You know, all of this stuff. And it's, it's difficult.

Angela Halili 16:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:20 It's hard to do that yourself. It's hard for everybody to engineer their own direction without any guidance at all.

Angela Halili 16:26 Right.

Chris Williamson 16:26 And I wonder whether that sense of having all of the options in the world but being lost because you can't choose them, I wonder whether that is sort of guiding people towards something that feels a little bit more like structure, guidance.

Angela Halili 16:38 Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, who wants to be moving through the world not knowing what you believe? It's like this whole, and I'm sure you've talked about this, like this whole phenomenon of, like, truth. Like, my truth, your truth. Truth is completely subjective. Whereas, like, like, real truth can't be subjective. There has to be one truth. If Ari and I get into an argument right now, right, I have my truth, she has her truth, and neither of those truths are the real truth, 'cause there's one truth about what actually happened separate from the emotion that's involved. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, any truth that is run by and ruled, governed by our emotions, I don't, like, I don't want that type of truth. I want a firm foundation to stand on and, like, moving through life. And that's the beautiful thing about Jesus, about the Bible, is that it never changes. You can count on it today like you can in a hundred years, that it won't change based on our moods, our emotions. And like, I know what it's like t- like to move through life, um, completely fluctuating in opinion and in thought, in an emotion, and it's just not stable. And like, you wonder why people struggle so much, why they d- there's so much instability.

Chris Williamson 17:49 Hm.

Angela Halili 17:50 And it's like they need something for them to stand on that is not based on emotion. That's really what I love about being a follower of Jesus, is that He's like, "Your heart is deceitful above all things. Don't trust it."

Chris Williamson 18:00 Yeah. (laughs)

Angela Halili 18:00 "But trust this." You know?

Chris Williamson 18:02 It's a firmer place to stand.

Angela Halili 18:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:04 It is. And believe me, we've tried it out. I mean, you're talking (laughs) to two girls who lived by their own strength, and then we start following this, and it's, like, transformed our lives. And you can't help but follow Jesus, and every day, it forces you to be the best version of yourself. So you can't go wrong. I mean, it's, it's hard. The, the c- the Christian walk is not easy. It's hard, right? But- Why? What's, what's difficult about it-

Angela Halili 18:28 Well-

Chris Williamson 18:28 ... compared with what you were doing previously? Well, um, for instance, we are...

Arielle Reitsma 18:35 All of us aren't good people. We all are, have pride. We all have ego. We all have insecurities. We all are sinful. That's just who we are. So every day it's a, it's a daily dying to self-

Angela Halili 18:47 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 18:47 ... because Jesus w- walking the path with Jesus, it's you live in gentleness, you live in, you live in holiness, right? Which that means we're not perfect, but every day it's saying, "Jesus, I'm so imperfect. Help me with this." So it forces you, like I don't get away with anything. Me and her get in a fight, I say something wrong to her, immediate conviction. I'm like, man. So all day I'll, it might, I'll be like, Jesus will be like, "Go talk to her right now." And I'll be like, "I don't wanna talk to her." "Go talk to her." So it's like, it forces you to forgive, be kind, be generous, be selfless, be sacrificial. So, and that's not easy. The Chri- that's not easy to do as human beings. But, um, but it's, it's, there's no other way to be.

Angela Halili 19:35 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 19:36 Without that, we're walking around prideful in sin, lustful, um, and that's why everybody's depressed. When the flesh is leading your life, that's, you know, it leads to depression, anxiety, chaos, um, jealousy, confusion, all that. So, but when the Spirit leads, when Jesus leads, that's when we're anchored. That's when we're steady. That's when our sou- souls are at steady and we're confident and we, we lead with, with gentleness and things like that, so...

Chris Williamson 20:06 What else was difficult when you made that pivot from old life to new life?

Arielle Reitsma 20:12 Say it again.

Chris Williamson 20:13 What else was difficult when you made your pivot from old life to new life?

Angela Halili 20:15 Yeah. Um, well, like Ari said, the Christian walk, being a follower of Jesus, He calls you to deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow Him. And so picking up your cross daily means that you've been crucified with Christ and now you live with Christ. And that means that everything about your old self had to die. But what's interesting is that while you become a new person, you become a new creation, unfortunately, you're still human and you still have all these little things, all these impurities, all these like, I'll just speak from experience. Jesus has done an incredible work by His spirit in my heart of, um, just purifying my heart with, I, I used to struggle with, you know, pride. I used to struggle with, uh, self-protecting. I was super tough. I was super guarded. I never felt safe in my life. I didn't feel safe in childhood. So I grew up with all these defenses. Um, and like this desire for control, which is just rooted in fear, right? And so Jesus saves my life and we're on this journey together and like every day I'm trying to be like Him. And then all these old habits and ways of being try to come up. And then you have to go through really hard work of being like, "Here we are again. We found ourselves. Crucify my ego, crucify this pride 'cause I don't want it. Like you didn't live with pride on earth. I wanna be like you." And that's really painful, you know, it's a lot of spiritual work. And then it's a lot of hard emotional work too. You have to be introspective. You have to allow the Lord to come and like touch parts of your heart that most of us don't look at.

Chris Williamson 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 21:55 A lot of us don't even know that it's in there, but you give your life to Jesus and you have to be aware and it's the greatest thing in the world. You're gonna do really hard work because He does not tolerate you being any less than where He wants you to be. He's that good.

Arielle Reitsma 22:09 He's a good dad.

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Angela Halili 23:09 Yeah, I mean, we have, we talk about mental health so much that we definitely, um, have an audience that struggles with their minds. A lot of mental health issues. People deal with self-worth issues. Um, people, specifically women, I mean, they're constantly programmed and indoctrinated to behave in a certain way, look a certain way, be a certain way, and then you meet Jesus and you're like, "Okay, He's telling me to do the opposite of this." And it is so difficult because Ari and I are, you know, blessed enough to have great Christian community. We have great people in our lives, but a lot of people don't have that. So they're thrown back into the world, and they have to choose every single day to be like Jesus, go against the grain of what the world is pushing onto them. And that's really difficult. And I think just the mental health, um, issue all over the bla- plan- pla- blane- planet is devastating. People are riddled with anxiety. People are more fearful than ever. We have more resources to therapy and AI in all of these things than ever, all the information in the world, and people are struggling more than ever.

Arielle Reitsma 24:21 I think sin as well.

Angela Halili 24:22 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 24:23 Um, sexual sin is a big one just because they don't know why they're depressed and why they're feeling all these ways and they're so stuck. And, um, so sexual sin, it's be- you know, sexual sin has been a big one.

Chris Williamson 24:36 What is sin in your understanding? Like why do people need saving from it?

Arielle Reitsma 24:40 Yeah.

Angela Halili 24:41 Well, Kris, sin (laughs) is-

Arielle Reitsma 24:44 (laughs)

Angela Halili 24:44 Sin is literally what Jesus died to overthrow. Sin, um, is what entered the world when... Basically, I describe it like this: We... There's an issue of will in the world. It's our will, or it's God's will. And you see it from the beginning of time. We have Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve chose their own will. God gave them everything that they would ever need or want. He gave them everything, and He said, "Just live in my will. Obey my will, and you will live a life of peace, and harmony, and beauty." And they were like, "Sorry, we want our will." Right? They ruined it for the rest of us. God bless them. And then we have Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane all those years later, and He redeemed everything that Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Jesus redeemed in the Garden of Gethsemane when He said, "Lord, not my will be done, but Yours be done." So it's this issue of will. So we get to choose which way we want to go. We get to choose whether we want God or whether we want sin, and sin is anything that goes against the natural order of the way that God designed things. Everything in this Bible that God taught... And again, it's not like rules and regulations. It's anything that separates you from God. And sin comes in a multitude. It's not just sexual sin, right? It's impurity in your heart. It's the words you speak. It's the things you do, lying, cheating. We have the Ten Commandments, like we all know those. Um, but it's more than just like the things you do. It's what's deep in your heart. Sin, we were born with sin, me, you, Ari, every single one of us in this room, and so we have to actively let the Holy Spirit for the rest of our lives sanctify us, and again, bring us back to our original image in God.

Arielle Reitsma 26:34 You mentioned that there was a tension between, uh, what girls are being encouraged to do, the way that they're encouraged to live their lives and show up, and what you think is a more wholesome lifestyle that you guys have gone into.

Angela Halili 26:46 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 26:46 What's that tension there? What, what are the issues with modern culture for women?

Angela Halili 26:50 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 26:52 What are modern cultures for women? (sniffs)

Angela Halili 26:55 Um, what is the issue with-

Arielle Reitsma 26:57 Oh.

Angela Halili 26:57 ... for women in modern culture?

Arielle Reitsma 26:59 Yeah, I think that, you know, modern c- modern women now are like, "I don't wanna..." Sorry, my phone. Let me just put this on do not disturb. Um, modern culture says, "I don't wanna go by the rules. I wanna live how I wanna live. I don't wanna submit. Like, I wanna live by my own truth." Um, I think they read the Scriptures, "Wives, submit to your husbands," and they stop there, and they're like, "Wait a minute. I'm not doing that. I'm not submitting to him." But if you keep reading the Scripture, it says, "Men, love your wives as Christ loved the Church." What does that mean? Christ loved the Church. He died for the Church. So men have a way huger responsibility than women. Men have to love their women, have to be willing to die for them, right? And so-

Angela Halili 27:48 Hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 27:49 ... it's not... It's, it's this beautiful partnership of, "I'm gonna trust you, and I'm gonna submit to you because I'm trusting that you're going to love me like Christ loved the Church." So we look at it like it's weakness, like, "I have to submit to him, and I have to be weak." No, that's strength. That's me trusting you. That's humility and selflessness. And so I think just, it's been so misconstrued. And look, we don't wanna ever be doormats, right? If we're in a... Sometimes we make b- bad decisions. We get in the wrong (laughs) relationships, and we don't wanna ever take abuse, but that's why we choose wisely, and we choose, choose people that, that love us like Christ loved the Church, that would give their lives for us, you know?

Angela Halili 28:29 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 28:29 Is that devotion piece why you think people are so unsatisfied with modern relationships? What, what's going wrong with modern relationships from your perspective?

Angela Halili 28:36 Oh, Kris, what's gone wrong with modern relationships? (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 28:38 I mean, we are here in LA, so this is-

Angela Halili 28:40 Right? Yeah. Oh. (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 28:41 ... 100% where that goes. In LA, where do we start?

Angela Halili 28:43 Can I just add one more thing to that? Because I think this is really important. There's just been such an over-sexualization of not even just women, women and men. Um, there, things have been truly so... So go drive around LA, look at the billboards. Everything is so overly sexualized. Um, and we live in a culture where that's glorified, glamorized, and again, they say like, "This is liberating," but really, it's the opposite. It's so true. And then w- in terms of dating, I think, of course, the progressive movement has m- tried to make this whole, like, men and women 50/50, um, we're equal sort of thing. And what's so beautiful about the original design of Jesus... You gotta read this book, Kris, I'm telling you, because it'll change your entire life, because you literally can read God's original design for man and woman, husband and wife, and you see how much it makes sense. You see why there's harmony. Men and women were not created 50/50. They're equal in value, yes, different in role, different in function, different in strengths. You know what I mean? It's not... Um, we literally have gotten into this thing in modern dating where we're like this. Men and women are against each other. We've pit women, women and men against each other, saying, "The future is female," and the poor men are like, "What about us?" You know what I mean? You're a man. I plan to hopefully have a son one day. I can't imagine my son having to live in a world where he's like, "The future's only female?" That doesn't even make sense. You know? It's just this whole progressive movement that creates so much confusion and so much division. Men and women were created to, like, work beautifully and harmoniously together, not against one another, but complementing one another. And so you see in dating...Men don't wanna be men, women don't wanna be women, and so everything is messed up. It's chaotic, and that's just the truth. You come into a beautiful, um, Jesus-loving, Godly relationship, and you see how beautifully it flows because you see a man be a provider, a protector. You see lay down his life the way that Christ died for the Church. And you see a woman be, like, a beautiful, nurturing, loving, building up type of woman, and it just flows. Why are we going against G- the natural design?

Arielle Reitsma 31:09 Yeah.

Angela Halili 31:09 It's just insane.

Chris Williamson 31:12 Is there a tension, do you think, between faith and modern femininity? You've got some reconciliation that needs to happen between biblical womanhood and some of the progress that's been made to give women independence in the modern world.

Angela Halili 31:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:27 Do you think there's a tension going on there?

Angela Halili 31:30 Yeah, I mean, listen. Take it from two working women who have jobs, who are loved to work, and who are in ministry and love what we do, and, um, this whole... There's just, like, this pushing of hyper-independence that I think is so damaging. I think we were created as human beings first to be so dependent on God. Like, we are supposed to be hyper-dependent on Jesus, and then as women, we were created to be in surrender and in submission to a man's authority in marriage. Um, and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, and I think obviously we've lost that with, um, I'm not gonna speak on the entire progressive movement because I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not knowledgeable on all of it. I don't know everything, but from what I do understand, um, the one area that I see an issue is this, this place of hyper-independence. I think it's damaging. I think it's harmful. I think, um, being dependent on people that you love and trust is a beautiful thing. Take it from someone who's been hyper-dependent my whole life, and then following Jesus, getting into a relationship with a beautiful, Godly man who, I'm not married, so I'm not under anybody's authority, but, like, as it trends that way, you see the safety in a relationship like this, and it begins to make sense. I don't need to fight for power. I don't need power. I'm not looking... Jesus didn't even fight for power.

Arielle Reitsma 33:00 Yeah.

Angela Halili 33:00 I don't need power.

Arielle Reitsma 33:01 But we do understand from a- that other side because I remember being in relationships and feeling like, "I have to fend for myself. I need to work. I can't depend on him. The minute he takes it away, I'm gonna be left alone, and he, and I'm gonna be..." Like, every, I remember being in a relationship, the minute something went wrong, he'd pull it away. You know what I mean?

Angela Halili 33:20 Wow.

Arielle Reitsma 33:20 And so, I felt, I remember feeling like, "Well, I have to take care of myself." My mom taught me, "You better have your own 'cause anyone could leave at any time."

Chris Williamson 33:28 Mm.

Arielle Reitsma 33:28 So, there is that other side where we have so much compassion. We do understand-

Angela Halili 33:33 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 33:33 ... because the world is crazy. I'm single right now. Dating is, it's, it's very hard to find good men (laughs) these days. You know? Like, a good... So, I do, we do see the other side of women are scared. They are. And so, we have so much compassion as well.

Chris Williamson 33:52 It's all well and good talking about, in an ideal world, this is how the design was previously set. We have a book that explains it. This is a good blueprint for you to follow. Practicality comes along, and people have painful relationships-

Arielle Reitsma 34:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:05 ... painful breakups.

Angela Halili 34:06 Totally.

Chris Williamson 34:06 They're left kind of adrift.

Angela Halili 34:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:07 Women are financial prisoners-

Arielle Reitsma 34:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:09 ... or, you know, uh, no longer financially independent-

Arielle Reitsma 34:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:11 ... so they have to stay in relationships they don't wanna be a part of.

Angela Halili 34:13 That's right.

Chris Williamson 34:14 And I think it sounds fantastic in principle, but I wonder whether in the modern world, it's compatible in practice. And I wonder, uh, th- there's obviously gonna be a difficulty-

Arielle Reitsma 34:25 Yeah.

Angela Halili 34:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:25 ... for some people to commit to something like that 'cause they'll think, "Well, this makes me very vulnerable."

Angela Halili 34:29 Totally. And there's, right, there's no blueprint as in, like, a woman has to stay at home and a man has to go to work. I plan to get married and still go to work.

Arielle Reitsma 34:37 (laughs)

Angela Halili 34:37 You know what I mean? It's more of, like, a, it's just, I, I speak, and there's so many beautiful relationships where a man stays home and a woman goes to work. We're not remotely saying that that's wrong or this is right. What we are saying is that there is a natural flow to a relationship where somebody has to... Would you agree with this, Chris, that somebody has to lead?

Chris Williamson 34:59 Yeah.

Angela Halili 34:59 Right?

Chris Williamson 34:59 Always.

Angela Halili 35:00 You can't have two leaders. Have you ever tried to co-lead something? It's really hard.

Chris Williamson 35:03 Well, you won't have one person singing harmony and one person singing lead.

Arielle Reitsma 35:06 Right.

Chris Williamson 35:06 If both people are singing lead, it doesn't sound very good.

Angela Halili 35:08 Exactly.

Arielle Reitsma 35:09 Right.

Angela Halili 35:09 Yeah, and so, one person leads. The man is called to lead their household in what we believe, and so it's just, and that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to breathe the, be the breadwinner. It's like, all of this can't be boiled down to any sort of, um, construct or, like, cliche.

Chris Williamson 35:27 But that's into, the reason that that is so difficult is that you have a modern world now where, for most people, you need two contributors financially.

Angela Halili 35:36 Right.

Chris Williamson 35:36 Uh, you have had gains for women recently, education, uh, Title IX is n- nearly two to one women to men going to college and university.

Arielle Reitsma 35:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:45 And I think the pushback feels like, "Well, hang on a second. We just got access to socioeconomic independence and equality, and you're now telling me that th- this is something that I'm supposed to submit? I'm supposed to be devoted? Like, this feels like a regression. This feels like you're p- sort of pushing me back." And I think that that's a tension that a lot of women will feel-

Angela Halili 36:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:07 ... which is, "I like the idea of being led. I like the idea of maybe being cared for. This sounds really lovely to me. But also, I like the idea of being independent, and I don't like the idea of being at the mercy of someone who I don't get to control."

Angela Halili 36:21 Right, totally.

Chris Williamson 36:21 Right? And it, it's the weird thing about careers that I think one of the reasons that people prioritize careers over relationships is that only you can leave your career, but not only you can leave your relationship. Right? Your career doesn't leave you-

Angela Halili 36:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:32 ... in that way, and I'm aware that d- I'm gonna guess you would say it's less fulfilling, this isn't where truth, uh, you know, et cetera, et cetera. This isn't devotion. This isn't gonna fulfill you in the same sort of way.

Angela Halili 36:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:41 However...... people come from a place of fear.

Arielle Reitsma 36:44 Totally.

Narrator 36:44 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 36:44 Yeah, it's so unstable

Chris Williamson 36:44 And when they do that, they look for something that feels like, "Okay, well, at least this is secure. This is safe."

Narrator 36:49 Yeah.

Angela Halili 36:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:49 "I can hold onto it. It's in my control."

Angela Halili 36:51 Yeah, totally understandable.

Arielle Reitsma 36:51 Oh, I've felt like that many times, yeah. But again, like, I'm just gonna go back to, it doesn't mean you have to give up your life. It doesn't mean you c-... We all... I believe that so much happen-... Like, God gives us purpose. God puts us in situations. God gives us things so we can... He... It's not like God wants us to just be home and just complete, completely submitted to a man. That's been misconstrued. That's not the truth, and that's not what God says.

Angela Halili 37:18 Right.

Arielle Reitsma 37:18 It just... Again, we're gonna go back to just, "I'm gonna trust You. I'm gonna trust that You're gonna lead me 'cause You're gonna love me and You're willing to lay your life down for me." But that doesn't mean that... I love working. It's my favorite thing ever. I don't even know what I do.

Angela Halili 37:32 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 37:32 Even when I have kids, like, I hope I can still work 'cause I... We truly love it. We love it, so.

Angela Halili 37:38 Yeah, and I'll just say one more thing. I am like, this whole... People just have Biblical submission so, so backwards, and I totally understand because I was there. I was like, "Submit to who? Are you crazy?"

Arielle Reitsma 37:50 (laughs) Yeah.

Angela Halili 37:50 Like, being a man, in God's design, is the most difficult position. Like, it is more difficult to be a man in power, right, who's leading, than it is to be the one who's submitting, because a man's sole purpose is to literally die to himself and prefer his wife and his children, always. That's the point. So actually, the woman is in a very good position if you are with a man who truly follows the Word of God and follows Jesus. It's something entirely different if you're with someone who doesn't know Jesus, doesn't know the Bible, and is telling you to submit. That's not what we're talking about.

Chris Williamson 38:25 Mm.

Angela Halili 38:25 You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 38:26 Mm.

Angela Halili 38:26 And so, yeah, these are things that you have to educate yourself on, that you have to read on, that you have to read the Word of God so you actually understand and you don't get yourself into a situation with a man who doesn't even know Jesus and is telling you to submit and is abusing you and treating you wrong.

Arielle Reitsma 38:40 Yeah.

Angela Halili 38:40 Like, the lo-... Let me tell you one thing. Jesus doesn't stand for women being mistreated, abused, left, cheated on. Like, that's not anything that He stands for.

Arielle Reitsma 38:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:51 You mentioned some of the challenges that men have got in the modern world, uh, finding a firm place for them to stand on, what is my role, some demonization, and being made to feel like I'm part of a patriarchy that I don't get any of the benefits of, like, "Where's, where's my Bugatti?"

Angela Halili 39:05 Mm.

Chris Williamson 39:05 Um, but more men than women are becoming religious for the first time in decades. It's an increasing proportion of men over women, especially of the young generation.

Angela Halili 39:13 Wow.

Chris Williamson 39:14 Why do you think that is?

Angela Halili 39:16 I honestly don't know, but it makes me really happy (laughs) .

Arielle Reitsma 39:18 I... Do you understand... I... Do you know, I didn't know that, and just to hear you say-

Chris Williamson 39:23 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 39:23 ... that, I'm like, "Wow." And that answers to another one of your questions, that there's gonna... God is raising good men of God up so we can finally feel safe-

Chris Williamson 39:31 Is this just to expand your dating pool? Is that the main reason for that?

Angela Halili 39:33 (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 39:33 Maybe it is. I-

Angela Halili 39:34 It's the dating effect (laughs) .

Arielle Reitsma 39:34 My, my eye... I was like, "Oh, okay." (laughs)

Angela Halili 39:37 Honestly, it's up there.

Arielle Reitsma 39:38 That... Thank you for sharing that with us-

Angela Halili 39:40 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 39:40 ... because that, that just shows that we're on the right track.

Angela Halili 39:43 We're in the end times, Chris.

Arielle Reitsma 39:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Angela Halili 39:44 Jesus is coming back.

Arielle Reitsma 39:45 He's coming back.

Angela Halili 39:46 And that's why you-

Chris Williamson 39:47 This count-

Angela Halili 39:47 You're gonna see-

Chris Williamson 39:47 ... there's a countdown timer. I need to-

Angela Halili 39:49 It's not... No, no, no.

Chris Williamson 39:50 ... I need to hurry up.

Angela Halili 39:50 There's no countdown. Y- you don't have to hurry up.

Arielle Reitsma 39:52 (laughs)

Angela Halili 39:52 We're right here-

Chris Williamson 39:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Angela Halili 39:53 ... like, today.

Arielle Reitsma 39:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:54 Look, I've gotta... I, I said I was gonna tell you a story about when I messed up.

Angela Halili 39:57 Yeah, let's hear it, please.

Arielle Reitsma 39:58 Can we do that? We wanna hear it.

Angela Halili 39:58 Finally. We wanna hear you talk.

Arielle Reitsma 39:59 Yeah, can you talk? (laughs)

Angela Halili 39:59 We're good.

Chris Williamson 40:00 Yeah, that's fine. Don't worry. Um, so I heard... I think it... I'm almost certain it was Jordan Peterson on a clip, and he said, "There's only one sentence in the Bible about choosing a partner, and it says, uh, choose somebody that you could go to war with."

Angela Halili 40:14 Mm.

Chris Williamson 40:14 "Someone that would stand side by side with you, and you would go into battle with." And I'm like, "Ah, that's beautiful." And what a gorgeous sentiment. You know, it's sort of teamwork, it's camaraderie, you're sort of fighting together. Uh, that's brilliant. And it's Jordan Pete-... Like, he's done the re-... He's obviously done the research. Like, he wouldn't get this wrong, would he?

Arielle Reitsma 40:30 Mm.

Chris Williamson 40:31 I decide-

Arielle Reitsma 40:31 There's no way.

Angela Halili 40:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:32 No, uh, Jordan wouldn't get this wrong.

Arielle Reitsma 40:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:33 He wouldn't mis-... He wouldn't miscite this on the internet.

Arielle Reitsma 40:35 I already don't believe it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:37 Uh, I then retold this story to, uh, Jocko Willink, Navy SEAL, big, scary, large hands, large head, and-

Arielle Reitsma 40:44 (Laughs) Large hands, large head.

Angela Halili 40:45 Oh, I know him.

Arielle Reitsma 40:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:46 Yep, uh, see?

Angela Halili 40:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:48 And-

Arielle Reitsma 40:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:49 ... uh, I was like, "Jocko, let me tell you this. There's only one sentence in the Bible that talks about, uh, choosing a partner. It's, uh, choose someone that you could go to war with."

Arielle Reitsma 40:57 Poor Chris.

Chris Williamson 40:57 This gets clipped, put online. And I was thinking to myself, I'm like, "Look. First off, Jordan Peterson said it. Presumably, he's read it." But even if he hasn't, look how big that is. No one knows what... No one knows all of the words that are in the Bible.

Arielle Reitsma 41:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:08 Like, no one knows all of it.

Arielle Reitsma 41:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:09 Oh, they know.

Angela Halili 41:10 (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 41:10 Oh, they know. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:11 They, they really know.

Angela Halili 41:12 He, he messed with the wrong group.

Chris Williamson 41:14 They really know. And I learned how much they know when I went for the first time to a, uh, uh, Austin Ridge Bible Church. This is-

Arielle Reitsma 41:23 I love Austin Ridge.

Chris Williamson 41:25 Easter-

Arielle Reitsma 41:25 That's the church that I went to.

Chris Williamson 41:26 Okay, so Easter last year, Easter Sunday last year.

Arielle Reitsma 41:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:29 This is like, this is like the Lollapalooza, right?

Arielle Reitsma 41:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:32 Of, of religious services.

Arielle Reitsma 41:35 It is.

Chris Williamson 41:35 There's traffic marshals outside. They're guiding people in. I pulled in behind a, uh, f-... Like, soft top supercar that had "God Now" as the number plate.

Arielle Reitsma 41:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:46 I was like, "Oh, okay, this is like a different-"

Arielle Reitsma 41:47 That was me, actually.

Chris Williamson 41:48 Was it?

Arielle Reitsma 41:48 That was my car, yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:49 Okay, yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. Yeah. I thought, I thought that you drove, uh, a car there.

Arielle Reitsma 41:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:53 Uh, so I get in, and the lady that's there... I thought that this was the person that was gonna start, and it wasn't. This was the warm-up act to the warm-up act to the music act to the pastor or whatever. Uh, and she starts using this sort of religious language. She's saying, uh, "Guys, we must remember to have faith and forgiveness, uh, and patience," when turning right onto Bee Cave Road coming out of the car park. And I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay, even the traffic marshaling is done... is, like, couched in s- sort of Christian language." Anyway, this keeps on going. They spent 60 minutes on, like, three passages, and this is what ha-... They just worked through the Bible slowly, so I was like, "Oh, people really know what's in the Bible." I, I just assumed it's a-

Arielle Reitsma 42:35 It's so big.

Chris Williamson 42:35 ... d- 200,000 wor-... I don't know how much it is. It's lots and lots-

Arielle Reitsma 42:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:37 ... of words. No one knows whether or not the go to war thing. Um, Christian-

Arielle Reitsma 42:42 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:42 ... Christian people on the internet got mad. They were really unhappy at the fact that I'd just, like, injected this cool little anecdote into a book that they really knew-

Arielle Reitsma 42:50 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:50 ... inside out. Anyway, look, the... Even if s- the specificity of it was wrong, the sentiment was right. I think it's a lovely sentiment.

Angela Halili 42:57 It's so beautiful.

Arielle Reitsma 42:57 It's fantastic.

Chris Williamson 42:57 And maybe if they do a se- if they do a second version-

Arielle Reitsma 42:59 I, uh-

Chris Williamson 42:59 ... they could...

Angela Halili 43:00 There's only, there's only one version.

Chris Williamson 43:02 Yeah.

Angela Halili 43:02 Anyways... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:04 (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 43:05 But... But I do love that line.

Chris Williamson 43:07 Yeah, it's true.

Angela Halili 43:07 And you said it in a-

Chris Williamson 43:07 Jordan, thank you.

Angela Halili 43:08 I, I, I gleaned as if I was like, "Oh."

Chris Williamson 43:11 Yeah.

Angela Halili 43:11 Like...

Chris Williamson 43:11 I missed that one.

Angela Halili 43:12 Yeah. I was like...

Chris Williamson 43:14 Yeah.

Angela Halili 43:14 Yeah. So, it's not your fault.

Chris Williamson 43:15 Yeah. Well, anyway.

Arielle Reitsma 43:16 I think there is truth to that.

Angela Halili 43:17 It is.

Arielle Reitsma 43:18 You, you find someone you do go to war with, who will never give up on you, who will sacrifice for you, that I would say that is true. So, tell those Christians to s- quit judging.

Chris Williamson 43:26 Ah. Ah. Ha, ha, ha.

Arielle Reitsma 43:28 How about that? (laughs)

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Chris Williamson 44:40 You mentioned earlier on, you're on, on, the hunt in some form or another, maybe passively, maybe actively. What do women really want from men? What do they actually want in a man?

Arielle Reitsma 44:49 What do men really want from women?

Chris Williamson 44:51 What do women-

Arielle Reitsma 44:51 What do women really want from men?

Chris Williamson 44:53 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 44:54 We wanna feel safe. Um, we wanna feel protected. We want to feel, um... We wanna know that you're... You know Jesus, because just being in this Christian walk, I realize that unless y- if you don't know Jesus, you're just not anchored. And I don't mean that to put people down. I really don't, because I have many friends who are not religious, but I know that when I didn't have Jesus, I was so lost. I didn't know. I, I, I acted on emotion. I just didn't know. So, for me, like, I need someone who is rooted, who is anchored, and the only way that you're truly anchored is if you're... If you have Jesus. And I'm sor- and I, and I don't, I don't mean that in a, in a harsh way. I really don't, but I have to come from a place of what, how I, how it is.

Chris Williamson 45:45 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 45:45 Um...

Chris Williamson 45:47 I wonder whether part of that is a reason for men increasingly turning to the church, that they feel like... You know, women feel displaced in some ways, but I think especially over the last 10 years or so, which is when this change has happened, I wonder whether guys are doing that. But I also wonder whether it's guys that are thinking, "If I want to show up and find a partner that I can build a family with, something doesn't speak to me about what's happening in the current pop culture."

Angela Halili 46:15 Of course.

Arielle Reitsma 46:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:16 "And I'm gonna find a different cohort, a different group of people to maybe try and build this around."

Arielle Reitsma 46:21 Yeah. And I know, and it's just g- and I just want to add one, one more thing. I know when your eyes are on Jesus, because again, it goes back to we are all flawed, we have so much pride and ego and sin, that I know if you're truly focused on Jesus, you're go- gonna be so focused that you're gonna, every day, crucify yourself and to do the right thing, because it, the truth is, is relationships are hard. It's hard to, in the modern world now, where we're in relationships, where there's A, B, C, D, where you can go on an app, you can... You're with someone for two, three years, and you're like, "You know what? I wanna try something new." But if you're really devoted to Jesus, you're gonna, you're, you're different. You're, you're not gonna be, you know?

Angela Halili 47:00 100%.

Arielle Reitsma 47:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:02 Are you worried about this, uh, opportunity in religious revival, the vacuousness and, and hollowness that some people are finding in pop culture opening up a gap in the market for people who don't truly believe to step in, to commercialize that, to sort of turn it into, uh... I mean, there's been pastors since the beginning of time that have sort of financially capitalized on their followings and stuff.

Angela Halili 47:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:30 Is that something that you guys are concerned about, about people sort of seeing openings where they can take advantage of that?

Angela Halili 47:36 Yeah. Um, I would say, this is something I actually talk about all the time, because it's a really interesting time, where I'm sure you know, being on the internet, that Christian content, like Christianity has become super trendy. Um, there's more Christian podcasts, obviously, than ever. There's a lot of Christian content that's created and pushed. And on one hand, it's the most beautiful thing in the world. We have a podcast where we know we have countless, hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of people who have come to Jesus through a podcast. It's incredible. People who have never opened up a Bible in their lives will hear scripture, will hear the word of God on a 30-second reel. You know what I mean? This is incredible. And Christianity is not supposed to be relatable. It's actually not supposed to be trendy. Christianity, the Gospel, Jesus, is actually incredibly offensive, because it goes against our natural hardwiring as humans. Like, it should be offensive. It shouldn't be that trendy. We, we wanna be relatable so that people can relate to us and say, "Oh, I see myself in them."

Chris Williamson 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 48:46 "Maybe Jesus can do that for me." But we don't want to water down Christianity to be relatable. That's not the point. So, there's something interesting about how there is power in Christian content being pushed and all of that. And it...I could argue, like, that the cross of Christ loses power when it becomes trendy-

Arielle Reitsma 49:07 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 49:07 ... because there's something so, like, there's nothing heavier, more weighty than the Gospel of Jesus. And so, to water it down to something for financial gain is obviously really scary.

Arielle Reitsma 49:18 Well, I imagine there's got to be a, a tension between wanting to be successful with your show and the need for humility, so i- you know, this balance between boldness and humility as Christian influencers.

Angela Halili 49:31 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 49:31 Trying to get a message across whilst also having this personal relationship and d- doing your own transformation thing and wanting to tell other people about something that's really meaningful to you whilst not, um, perverting the message.

Angela Halili 49:46 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 49:46 Is that a tension that you guys have to navigate?

Angela Halili 49:49 Um, I just, I think the connection between boldness and humility is so beautiful because they're not in opposition to one another. Jesus literally embodies bo- both boldness and humility at the same time. Like, he is so humble, so low, the lowest, the most humble man that's ever walked the face of the Earth and the absolute most bold person to have ever lived. Like, literally went and spoke a message to people who would try to kill him for it, and he did not care, and he never stopped. He is literally humility and boldness, and the scripture describes him as, like, the lion and the lamb at the same time. Like, that is, like, the dichotomy of Jesus is so beautiful.

Arielle Reitsma 50:31 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 50:31 Um, and that's what true masculinity is. Like, it's not this alpha, uh, be strong, work out, and get a lot of girls. Like, that is not what masculinity is. Masculinity, true masculinity, is first of all, the face of Jesus, a wounded man on a cross that reigns in Heaven for the rest of eternity, and it's being a lion and a lamb at the same time.

Arielle Reitsma 50:55 Yeah. And I just... And listen, there's been times where, you know, we're... Everybody loves, like, a good job and we're trying to be bold and we're trying to... We're like, "Did I do a good job?" But the minute we put our eyes on ourselves and take it off of Jesus, we've, we've missed it, and I think that's what a lot of people do. So it's constantly looking at Jesus, being bold, and being like, every th- the th- we're not here to serve ourselves, we're here to serve Jesus. And I think- Mm-hmm. ... my whole life, I was self-serving myself. How can I get from A to B? I wanna be this. I wanna make something of myself.

Angela Halili 51:30 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 51:30 And I had gotten it all wrong. And so what a gift that I don't have to go by my own strength anymore. I don't have to, like, try to be something and try to get the approval of others, which sometimes I do. I'm not gonna sit here and say that I'm perfect. I h- I do sometimes, but it's a constant, "Wait a minute. This isn't about me. This is about you." So it's a constant keeping your eyes on Jesus and remember who we're glorifying. It's not ourselves. It's Jesus. A- and that's where you get boldness. Yeah. When it comes to sharing your testimony online, do you find it difficult to sort of balance over-sharing versus transparency? You know, it must be hard to not feel an incentive to be performative with a private transformation because it's something that's so important to you.

Angela Halili 52:16 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 52:16 But also, you've got to navigate your own thing, and you don't want to have these incentives come and tempt you to, uh, over-egg or fall out of touch with what's actually going on. But then there is, you know, a few million people that are hanging on your every word about what the most recent update is in your faith.

Angela Halili 52:34 Yeah. Um, I mean, it really, for me personally, boils down to my relationship with the Holy Spirit. I am very, very careful because... So our time with Jesus is called the secret place. Like, where I'm supposed to meet Jesus in the secret place. Wherever that is for you, you get down on your knees or you sit on your couch or you sit on your bed at whatever time of the day, usually the morning, and you go, and that's your time where you meet with Jesus. And what happens in the secret place is secret, right? It's like, you have conversations with God that nobody hears about, like, it's meant to be private. And then there are things that happen in the secret place that I believe the Lord allows you to share, and there's a lot that he doesn't want me to share. And I know the difference by the voice of the Holy Spirit. I can tell when something is for me. I can tell when something is for me to share. Um, I feel a heavy convi- conviction not to minister from a, from a broken place. It's okay I am broken. It's okay to be broken, but I never wanna minister from a broken place. I don't want to be fully bleeding, um, because I just believe that maybe... I believe that the Lord cares about me more than he cares about what I can do for him, so he doesn't need me to bleed out at the cost of myself. And so that's how I measure what I share and what I don't share. It is very... This is probably the most important thing for me personally, is that, like, "Lord, is this okay for me to share?" I'm not about to go tell our... It's like if you and your spouse or me and my spouse have a conversation that's so incredibly private and intimate, and I'm just like going out and telling 100,000 people.

Arielle Reitsma 54:12 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 54:12 You know? It's the same thing.

Arielle Reitsma 54:13 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think for me, I think it's a little bit different for me.

Angela Halili 54:18 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 54:18 I think that my testimony... So when I started the podcast, I had just started reading the Bible. I knew nothing. (laughs) I was like, "I know that Jesus saved my life, and I don't know any scriptures." Angela was the biblical one. But, um, I came... I h- I, all I had was my heart, and so I (laughs) would just, like, bleed out. Um, I remember being like, "You better get another co-host 'cause I don't... I'm not doing this." Like, I had this facade up my whole life on, on social media. You w- would've thought I was Princess Diana with the way I acted. (laughs) Like, you would've thought my life was perfect. Mm-hmm. And to be so vulnerable and to talk about my mental health and suicidal thoughts and all these things was really difficult. I remember I got a message from a girl and she was like, "I almost took my life, and because of you guys' podcasts, I didn't, because I felt seen." And so every time I go on there and I'm scared, I'm like...This is really hard, but Lord, I always check in with Him and I'm like, "What can I say to reach your people to make-"

Angela Halili 55:17 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 55:18 "... as harder as this will be, what can I, can... Do I be vulnerable today so I can reach your people?" Because it's not about, it's not about us.

Angela Halili 55:26 Hm.

Arielle Reitsma 55:26 It's about wha- being a vessel for Jesus to reach His people. And so if that is bleeding out our lives and talking about the hard stuff, I'm like, "It's worth it." You know?

Chris Williamson 55:38 Mm. It definitely seems like anyone who takes the religious pivot gets a lot of scrutiny online. And you guys have got lives from before and you've got lives now, and the lives now are significantly more public and presumably a lot more scrutinized.

Arielle Reitsma 55:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:51 How do you handle moments when your past gets resurfaced against you?

Angela Halili 55:55 My... Well, I look at a man nailed to a cross (laughs) and I'm like, yeah. There's just something so, um, beautiful about life with Jesus because you can't have a testimony of Jesus without the past, without your past. And I think, uh, it's a really interesting, like, idea that you would weaponize somebody's past against them because you can't weaponize somebody's past against them as a Christian, because that's literally the testimony of Jesus. We have Saul to Paul, one of the most prolific and important people, impactful people of the entire Bible. What would Paul be without Saul? Like, who would he be? W- we wouldn't have the testimony of Jesus in his life if we didn't know about the Saul that was literally killing Christians, crucifying every... He was in direct opposition to everything that Jesus taught and was. And so if Paul, like, cleaned up his past and didn't want anyone to know about it, we wouldn't have 60% of the New Testament. You know what I mean? So it's a really interesting thing if someone tries to weaponize it against you, because it's like, hello, it's literally death to life. It's literally the most beautiful thing. The sin is not beautiful. The dark past is not beautiful. But what Jesus does, how He truly takes dead things and brings them to life, and He completely takes somebody's life and turns it upside down and flips it on its head, and they become new people from the inside out. You can't have that without your past. So if someone's- Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:30 ... weaponizing your past (laughs) , it's like, great. Actually tell more people so they know-

Angela Halili 57:35 Right.

Chris Williamson 57:35 ... the power of Jesus.

Arielle Reitsma 57:37 But I think, and I think the other thing we've tried our best to do on our journey is to always be honest.

Angela Halili 57:42 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 57:42 Because what's done in the dark will always come to light. And we do not hide that we've had a past. And even... And we've let people down sometimes, but we, Angela and I always try to always be honest. And, um, so yeah, we... I think that's a big one, being honest with our past.

Angela Halili 58:00 So authentic. So honest, you have to be.

Chris Williamson 58:04 Is going viral with face-based content a blessing or a burden for you guys? Like, I imagine it's hard to navigate internet fame and keep a spiritual grounding-

Arielle Reitsma 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:14 ... at the same time.

Arielle Reitsma 58:15 Great question. It's been the biggest blessing. It has been the biggest blessing of our lives being able to gr-... Like, the difference between us and a pastor is that we... They've grown with us. They've seen our transformation and they've grown with us. On the other hand, I'll just speak for myself, I don't wanna speak for you, Ang., um, usually people build a foundation before they come into ministry.

Chris Williamson 58:45 Hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 58:46 We, unquote-unquote, had success overnight and we were catapulted very fast. Like, I don't even know. It, it happened so fast. Sometimes I'm like, "W- where are we (laughs) you know?" Um, so sometimes I feel like I have no place to stand on. I don't have all-

Chris Williamson 59:04 What legitimates me being here? Where is my ex-

Arielle Reitsma 59:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:07 Yeah. I've got it-

Arielle Reitsma 59:07 I don't have all the answers. I, I'm still trying to figure it out. I'm still trying to... I, I still fall. I fall short of God's glory every day. I am so imperfect. I'm so flawed. I've had to unlearn so many things that I've been accustomed to since I was a little girl. I'm, like, relearning. I feel like I'm a, a young girl all over again. Like, I literally have to rewire my brain, unlearn things while still teach young girls and even older girls. And so sometimes I'll be standing there and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm doing (laughs) ," you know? So I think that it's been such a blessing, but incredibly weighty at the same time. Is that, is that a, a word? Weighty?

Angela Halili 59:46 It's weighty, girl.

Arielle Reitsma 59:47 Weighty.

Angela Halili 59:48 It's weighty. (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 59:49 So, yeah.

Angela Halili 59:50 It is. (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 59:50 And so, um, yeah, I think...

Angela Halili 59:53 Yeah. I mean, there's... It's... I would never describe it as a burden. It's not a burden. It's a blessing and there's a cost to it, you know? There's a cost to being a Christian in general, first and foremost. And then there's a major cost to being in ministry. And like, um, we have the podcast, and then we are on tour. We do live events. It's ministry in person, and we pray over incredibly broken, desperate people who need help, who need Jesus. And so it's... They're so much weight to it, but it is the greatest blessing of our lives. And I think one more thing that I'll add to that is like, you know what missionary work is, right? Like, missions trips. Like, you go to different places in the world, or even in America, and you basically just help establish culture and, like, a church environment and help people in different, you know, um, ethnic groups and different places in the world. And I heard of this story of this couple in Brazil who have this base, and they basically bring in, like, a bunch of people, a bunch of believers, and they go out into these communities and they just help them, impoverished people, gang members. Like, they evangelize, preach the gospel, all this stuff. And they have, like, a rule basically that's like for all the people o- on their base, if you didn't, for some reason, get time with the Lord, if you didn't spend time with Jesus, don't even go out there. Just go spend time with Jesus. Don't even come out that day because it is not worth you coming out in your own strength, in your own might...... if you don't have Jesus to offer them, you don't have anything to offer. So for us, like, I'll speak for myself personally, if I don't spend time with Jesus, I have nothing to offer in a microphone.

Chris Williamson 1:01:30 Mm.

Angela Halili 1:01:30 I have nothing to say. I will not go. I don't wanna do it. I am not the, uh, y- we're not there for a paycheck. We're not there to be on an elevated stage with a microphone in our hands. You know what I mean? It's just like, if God wanted to take all this away (laughs) tomorrow, it's okay.

Chris Williamson 1:01:47 Yeah.

Angela Halili 1:01:47 It's really okay, because it is truly about people. It's about bringing people to Jesus.

Chris Williamson 1:01:53 The best analogy I've heard around that is that you don't serve people from your cup, you serve them from the saucer that overflows around your cup.

Angela Halili 1:01:59 Yes, that's so- Here, okay, Chris-

Narrator 1:02:00 Okay. Seriously, Chris, what do you mean?

Angela Halili 1:02:01 Like, you're a pastor, you're a preacher.

Narrator 1:02:04 We're gonna see, we're gonna see Chris next year (laughs) -

Angela Halili 1:02:06 (laughs)

Narrator 1:02:06 ... and he's gonna be preaching the Gospel.

Angela Halili 1:02:09 No, no, k- keep going.

Chris Williamson 1:02:10 That's it.

Angela Halili 1:02:10 I just wanna ask you a question later.

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 Hit me.

Angela Halili 1:02:13 What's your relationship like with faith?

Narrator 1:02:15 Yeah.

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Chris Williamson 1:03:19 I've said this before, there's a line in Angels and Demons, the movie by Dan Brown.

Angela Halili 1:03:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:23 You've seen it?

Angela Halili 1:03:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:24 It's got Ewan McGregor in it and Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks is playing the professor, and he's trying to get down into the Vatican archives to get access to some- something. Uh, there's a bomb gonna go off, and he needs to get down there and see Leonardo da Vinci's secret scripts or whatever. And the pope's died, so it's the Camerlengo, which is paid, uh, played by Ewan McGregor.

Angela Halili 1:03:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:43 And he says, "I need to get down here." The Camerlengo turns to him, he says, uh, "Do you believe, Professor?" And he starts giving a politician's answer-

Angela Halili 1:03:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 ... and he says, "Well, you know, uh, uh, uh, w- we need to define what we mean by faith, uh, blah, blah, blah," so on and so forth. He says, "I didn't ask that."

Angela Halili 1:03:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 "I asked if you believed." And he turns straight to the camera and he goes, "Faith is a gift that I'm yet to be given."

Angela Halili 1:04:02 Mm. Um, you said that to me.

Chris Williamson 1:04:06 Yeah. I just, I'm completely open to it.

Angela Halili 1:04:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:10 But, uh, Alex O'Connor, good friend of mine, we've had a lot of conversations about religion, uh, I can't remember, I think the line is from Chesterton where he says, uh, "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has, uh, been found hard and not tried."

Angela Halili 1:04:28 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 Like, found difficult and not tried.

Angela Halili 1:04:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:31 And I think, I don't know, I'm, I'm completely open to it, but it's something that, as of yet, hasn't come into my life.

Angela Halili 1:04:39 Are you, do you feel fulfilled-

Chris Williamson 1:04:43 Yes.

Angela Halili 1:04:43 ... in life? You do?

Chris Williamson 1:04:44 I do.

Angela Halili 1:04:45 Do you feel a longing in your spirit, like you're looking for something?

Chris Williamson 1:04:49 Yeah, I would say so, but I wonder how much of that is just part and parcel of being a human.

Angela Halili 1:04:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:54 And I suppose that when it comes to someone who has found a higher purpose, like you guys have, that if that longing goes away, my assumption that, well, you know, like, uh, there's a translation from Buddhism that says, uh, uh, "Life is unsatisfactoriness." Life is unsatisfactoriness, that inherent in life is this sense of longing, this sense of lack, this sense of-

Angela Halili 1:05:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:18 ... of, uh, something that's been, that's missing.

Angela Halili 1:05:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:21 Um, it, the translation's supposed to be, "Life is suffering," but it could also be, "Life is unsatisfactoriness," and I think life is unsatisfactoriness is an interesting way to look at it.

Angela Halili 1:05:28 It is.

Chris Williamson 1:05:30 But then if someone finds faith and says, "Uh, that thing that you thought that was built into life, that was a feature of life, isn't a feature, it's actually a bug, and the path that I've decided to go on is something that's changed and has gotten rid of that for me," then, uh, who am I to say that something that I think is just a built-in part of being a sensitive human isn't?

Angela Halili 1:05:51 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:51 And could be something that you get rid of.

Angela Halili 1:05:53 Did your parents have faith?

Chris Williamson 1:05:55 No, not particularly.

Angela Halili 1:05:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:56 Mom's a Reiki master, so she's spent a lot of time in and around that kind of thinking.

Angela Halili 1:06:01 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:06:01 But I don't think she would consider herself sort of formally religious in that way.

Angela Halili 1:06:04 Right. Do you have a good relationship with them?

Chris Williamson 1:06:06 Yeah. Yeah, it's great.

Angela Halili 1:06:07 That's beautiful.

Narrator 1:06:08 Do you ever do Reiki?

Chris Williamson 1:06:10 I, uh, she does it to me.

Angela Halili 1:06:12 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:12 Uh, but, and, I mean, she's got an army of women that do distant healing and-

Angela Halili 1:06:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:18 ... all sorts of other stuff, crystals and, and things like that, which are-

Angela Halili 1:06:20 Do you feel like it's worked at all?

Chris Williamson 1:06:22 Uh, sometimes I've got an extra boost from somewhere that I haven't been a- able to explain, and I'm not sure where that's come from.

Angela Halili 1:06:29 Right. And then-

Chris Williamson 1:06:30 Yeah.

Angela Halili 1:06:30 ... it goes away?

Chris Williamson 1:06:31 Uh, yeah, yeah.

Angela Halili 1:06:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:32 Ups and downs.

Narrator 1:06:33 That's what I, I used to do. I did Reiki a couple times. No, I really did.

Chris Williamson 1:06:37 Mm.

Angela Halili 1:06:37 Yeah. (laughs) I think-

Chris Williamson 1:06:39 You really tried it all?

Narrator 1:06:40 I tried it all, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Angela Halili 1:06:42 That's amazing.

Narrator 1:06:42 I really, except for ayahuasca, I'm very glad I didn't go down that road, but yeah-

Chris Williamson 1:06:47 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:06:47 ... no, I did, I, I dipped in a lot of stuff.

Angela Halili 1:06:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:50 Going back to the saucer that overflows around your cup thing, I think it really is important to look after yourself first, and it's regardless of whether or not you're giving testimony or, you know, uh, teaching people how to be devoted and find faith, or you're just trying to show up for your family or your business. Like, if you haven't looked after yourself, I don't think that you can expect to show up in the world in a very functional way. And-

Angela Halili 1:07:13 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:07:14 ... you know, the classic idea of you're in an airplane and the masks descend and there's a child next to you, it's like, you put your own mask on first, because if you're suffocating, you're of very little use to the people around you that need you.

Angela Halili 1:07:25 ... yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:26 Uh, and they do. So, yeah, it's, it's gotta be a difficult one for you guys to navigate, to think, "Okay, I've gotta sort my own thing. I'm on my own sort of personal trajectory." And there's a lot of people that are very bought into this and have got, you know, decades and decades and decades more experience than you guys at doing the thing that you're doing-

Angela Halili 1:07:43 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 ... but you've traded, it seems to me, you've traded, uh, expertise for relatability.

Angela Halili 1:07:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:51 And as with everything... You know what it's... I'm gonna make an analogy that you might hate. Uh, you are the Jake Paul of the religion world-

Angela Halili 1:08:02 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:08:02 ... uh, the Christian world, in that you're someone to people that have come into this without the heritage, of people that have been in there for a very long time and have got a lot of popularity, and along with that is gonna come a lot of scrutiny. "Well, do these people really believe what they're saying?"

Angela Halili 1:08:15 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 1:08:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:16 Like, this seems like a very well-timed pivot. And it's like, well, if it was something that was called to me, how would you know the difference-

Angela Halili 1:08:23 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:08:23 ... between this being a legitimate personal miss- mission and it being a, uh, fortuitous moment in pop culture where people are trying to find something that's more meaningful?

Angela Halili 1:08:33 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08:33 And, like, no one's able... The same with Jake Paul. It's like, is he actually a good boxer? Maybe these fights have paid off, you know. Like, this isn't really true. He's fighting Mike Tyson. That mic was, that fight was thrown. Uh, it's a, an interesting time to see that sort of tension going on, and I, uh, I don't envy you guys having to, having to navigate that at all. Uh, it's hard enough trying to do it without the pressure of it being someone's faith-

Angela Halili 1:08:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:58 ... right, and you having a couple of millennia of, um, momentum behind you, and trying to sort of work out, "Okay, how do we do this respectfully, without triggering people, without, um, looking like we're capitalizing, whilst also pushing a message that we think is really meaningful to both of us?" That's, that doesn't seem easy to me.

Angela Halili 1:09:18 Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think what's really special, especially with long-form content, is that people really do know who you are. They get to know you. They spend hours upon hours with you. So yeah, when someone looks at your Instagram, 30-second Reel, two blonde girls talking about Jesus-

Arielle Reitsma 1:09:36 (laughs)

Angela Halili 1:09:37 ... like, might not be the most convincing thing, right?

Chris Williamson 1:09:40 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 1:09:41 I think anybody who watches a full-length podcast of ours, a full-length episode, immediately knows, like, Jesus is in this. These girls believe what they're talking about. Um, and it's authentic, and it really is. And we get to put our pillow, heads on our pillows every single night knowing that we seek the face of Jesus every day-

Arielle Reitsma 1:09:59 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 1:10:00 ... begging him to show up in everything that we do, and he does. And f- you know, Scripture talks about how you will know them by their fruit. The fruit of what we do is like... This is what I'm confident in. I'm not confident in that we know what to say or that we're the best in the... Like, who cares? I'm confident in the fruit of what we do, in the people's lives that have been transformed, in the people of countless different faith, backgrounds, and religions who have come to know Jesus because of, um, us preaching the Gospel. Like, that's-

Arielle Reitsma 1:10:33 Yeah.

Angela Halili 1:10:33 ... that's everything.

Arielle Reitsma 1:10:34 Yeah, and we know why God put us on here. We, He didn't put us on here because we're Bible scholars. He put us on here so we could look in the face of others and be like, "Me too. You're not alone. You're seen."

Chris Williamson 1:10:44 Mm-hmm.

Arielle Reitsma 1:10:45 "We have passed too. We messed up too." And so, there's nothing like feeling seen and knowing you're not alone, and being like, "Wait, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have it all together." And so, I re- we remind ourselves, "No, we don't have to have it all together." Like this is-

Angela Halili 1:11:02 Yeah.

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:02 ... why He put us on here, and we have one audience at the end of the day, and that's Jesus. And so, as scrutinized as we might get, we look at each other, and we're like, "Jesus." You know?

Angela Halili 1:11:12 And we get so much support. It's insane.

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:14 It's like amazing.

Angela Halili 1:11:15 We... They're like-

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:16 We get more support than scrutiny, if I'm being honest.

Angela Halili 1:11:19 I don't even really see that much scrutiny. Sometimes.

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:21 We get like one or two comments, but like, we have the... GGB is, they're the best. They, they're ride-or-dies. It's insane.

Chris Williamson 1:11:30 It's interesting, you know, sort of thinking about this arc. Let's take... How old are you guys?

Angela Halili 1:11:36 29.

Chris Williamson 1:11:37 And...

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:38 25. (laughs) I'm just kidding.

Chris Williamson 1:11:39 (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:40 I'm 35. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:42 Uh-

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:42 I just sinned. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:45 (laughs)

Angela Halili 1:11:45 (laughs)

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:45 I'm sorry, Jesus. Please forgive us. See, he can get away with anything. (laughs)

Angela Halili 1:11:49 No, you ain't. It was fine.

Chris Williamson 1:11:49 Yeah, yeah, under the table. Um-

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:51 How old are you?

Angela Halili 1:11:52 That doesn't work.

Chris Williamson 1:11:52 37. Yes, it does work.

Angela Halili 1:11:54 You're 37?

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:54 Yes, you can-

Angela Halili 1:11:54 No, no, no, Jesus doesn't like this.

Arielle Reitsma 1:11:56 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:11:56 Yes, no, that's, that's exactly how it works.

Angela Halili 1:11:59 I, I, right, I understand someone behind the...

Arielle Reitsma 1:12:00 I used to do that all the time, no... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:12:02 Um-

Arielle Reitsma 1:12:03 No crosses, no (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 1:12:04 (laughs) ... that

Chris Williamson 1:12:07 over the last, what, three decades since we'll have been consuming stuff on the internet to do with religion, it would've only been 20 years ago that it would've been super cool to have been an atheist, that that was kind of the trendy-

Angela Halili 1:12:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:12:20 ... world to be in, that it was sort of rationality. It was Richard Dawkins. It was Sam Harris. It was Daniel Dennett. It was Christopher Hitchens. It was, you know, owns pastor debunks story from the Bible, so on and so forth. And, uh, I think certainly in my teenage years, that was like, it was trendy. It was kind of, um, revolutionary.

Angela Halili 1:12:39 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:12:39 Uh, it felt rebellious in a way. It was, um, forward-thinking. It was forthcoming. It was rational. It was scientific. And you sort of roll the clock forward to now, and I wonder... One of the problems, I think, is that humans aren't really very well-constructed to understand statistics-

Arielle Reitsma 1:13:00 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:00 ... and numbers. We live in narrative and personification and archetype and story and good and bad and evil and characters. And this is, again, from my friend, Alex, who did philosophy and theology at Oxford, so he's way smarter than me. Um, and he explained, "Well, what you're asking people to do is let go of the thing which, to them, feels most real-"

Angela Halili 1:13:23 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:23 "... which is personification, story, narrative, archetype..."... characters. Good, bad. Why does this happen? It's like a- as- as a- a pro-social, uh, relational understanding of how things came to be. You're telling them to get rid of the thing which to them feels the most real-

Angela Halili 1:13:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:38 ... and to start to rely on, "Well, look at all of these facts- facts and numbers and statistics that we've got here." And even if you were to say, "Well, yeah, but, you know, the scientific method's really, really reliable."

Angela Halili 1:13:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:47 "Like, it's the entire reason that it's here. Look at all of the great advances that we've had. Look at all of the stuff that's around us because of what we've done." It's like, yeah, I understand that, but there's a difference between something being literally true and functionally true.

Angela Halili 1:13:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:57 And a lot of the time, I wonder... I had a conversation with Richard Dawkins about this very thing. You know, world's most famous atheist, probably. And as I'm sat there, he's explaining about how, you know, "I- I don't really have time..." Obviously, he's very critical of religion. "I don't really have time to sort of indulge people's fantasies or their delusions and stuff." I'm like, "I get that, but even if you don't believe, you have to understand why people do believe, and it's because what you're offering, uh, as an alternative is just not very compelling." Like, it's not fulfilling to have, "Well, yeah, but let me explain to you about how this study worked, and look at the R0 number, and we can-"

Angela Halili 1:14:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:14:34 "... can we... You know, it's a statistically significant value." And you go, "I- I- I get that, but the explanation just doesn't fit into the human mind as well as something that is a little bit more, um, in heritage."

Angela Halili 1:14:49 I love that you say that so much. Go ahead.

Narrator 1:14:51 Oh, no.

Angela Halili 1:14:52 I- I'm obsessed with this conversation, but I'm also obsessed with what you said a second ago about atheism. Can we talk about that really quick, about how I talk about this all the time, how back in the day, how atheism was just like it was the way to go, it was the way to rebel. And I think because of the liberal and progressive movement that went so far the other way, so far, like, freedom, liberation, dye your hair, get tattoos, be whatever you want, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff, it went so far that way that people are like, "Okay, getting, like, a sleeve of tattoos and dying my hair blue is no longer rebellious. I'm gonna become a devout Catholic-"

Chris Williamson 1:15:29 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 1:15:29 "... because that's what re- what's rebellious these days."

Chris Williamson 1:15:31 Mm-hmm.

Angela Halili 1:15:32 Like, truly, I mean, it went so far the other way that I just- I just love that conversation. I think that's so interesting. And just like what you said a second ago, anybody who would boil down, like, the existence of humanity to whatever theories they have, the Big Bang, whatever it might be, and, um, basically boil it down to nothing and give no real foundational, functional answer to why we exist, why we're here, the intricacies in how we were made as human beings, the way our