Modern WisdomJ.K. Rowling & The Cost of Speaking Freely - Warren Smith
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 24,859 words- 0:00 – 7:57
Why is JK Rowling Back in the News?
- CWChris Williamson
J.K. Rowling is back in the news. How do you feel about her recent debacle?
- WSWarren Smith
I can understand where she's coming from. I think it was effective, I don't see any problems with it. I can understand why she would say that. I would probably feel the same way if I were in her position, honestly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, she's become a lightning rod. So for the people that didn't hear, uh, Emma Watson went on Jay Shetty's podcast, said some stuff, and it seems, at least from the outside, like she's starting to sort of row back some of the condemnation that's been there, because maybe it's not as sort of trendy as it used to be, and this is kind of the big complaint that everybody has. Do you actually stand on this principle or are you just blowing with the fucking wind? And, uh, I think J.K., in this big tweet that's had like 46 million impressions, which is th- that's enough, that's enough to get people to take notice. Uh, she, she literally says it, like basically, if it wasn't for the fact that she had to say that she loves and treasures me, uh, sh- J.K. wouldn't have piped up. But she is now beginning to detect this change maybe in the sort of cultural weathervane, uh, and, um... Yeah, dude, be careful what you say on the internet.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, I think she's just... Emma Watson's being opportunistic. It's interesting though that the tide is turning in that way, 'cause that's how you can tell that it really is, when people start to perform differently like that. And it's all for business interests, I think, probably. But J.K. Rowling, I mean, if it wasn't for J.K. Rowling, I wouldn't be talking to you right now either, so some of those things applied. I was, when I was reading through that tweet, 'cause J.K. Rowling messaged me in the wake of my firing, and that really meant a lot to me. I think authenticity is something that's really important to her. But yeah, she's a, she's a remarkable person to do that, to take the time to do that, so... I have a soft spot in my, in my heart for her. Always will.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Why do you think she's such a lightning rod for this stuff? Like what's, what's uniquely interesting about her position?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, I think it's first and foremost that her work is the best-selling book in the world next to the Bible. It's, for millennials it's, it's our Star Wars, it's more than that, uh... So she created this... She became richer than the Queen off of fiction, um, so there's that. But, I mean, her position, I think, is rather mainstream, conventional. It's not risque in any way and I think that's why... That's one of the reasons I think it's become such a zeitgeist, 'cause people, when they listen to it, it's like this, this is very reasonable, it seems very logical. That's part of the reason why that video of me talking to the student did what it did, because it's just so common sense, it seems like. There's nothing crazy about her position.
- CWChris Williamson
Could you give a, uh, 30,000-foot view recap? I know it was a little while ago now, but just for the people that don't know the Warren Smith law, um...
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Just do (laughs) do the, uh, previously on this season.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. So I was teaching content creation, multimedia. We were supposed to do a newscast. Student was feeling kind of nervous so I said, "Let's do a warm-up. I'll sit here in the chair. You... What do you want to talk about? Just ask me." We would do things like this, have little podcasts, and she's like, "Well, how have your views on J.K. Rowling changed, given her bigoted opinions?" I was like, "Okay, well, when you say 'bigoted opinions,' what are you basing that on?" "Well, these... There's all these tweets," she said. "I can show them to you if you, if you'd like to see." "Sure, let's, let's pull them up." So he pulls them up, we run through them. The whole exchange was like five minutes, um... I didn't, uh, think it was that interesting or that crazy, but that's... And then I uploaded it to like my little rinky-dink YouTube channel where I had, uh, clips of me teaching, and I called it like my teaching portfolio, 'cause we had to submit artifacts for teaching port- our portfolio, and I would have clips of me teaching. (clears throat) And someone grabbed it and pulled it over to Twitter, where... I, I was not active on Twitter, and that's where it went crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And then what happened?
- WSWarren Smith
Couple months went by. Everything changed very quickly. Two days after that, Piers Morgan had me on for like a 15-minute conversation. I was completely out of my depth. And I came in the next day and just acted like nothing happened, and tried, and, but... that didn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
Denial is always a wonderful strategy, I think.
- WSWarren Smith
(laughs) Well, yeah. No, it didn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- WSWarren Smith
And, and then that af- so then that afternoon-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
'Cause Piers Morgan, his producers, they just want the flavor of the day, like... so they jumped right on it, and they're like, "Will you do this?" And I was working with one teacher, we used to record in this space, so after that, we set the space up and started once a week making videos, and so I told him, I was like, "They want me to come on Piers Morgan, what should I do? Like, is the school gonna get mad?" He's like, "Yeah, they'll, they'll get mad, but..." Said, "Just do it," you know, and just... 'Cause if I ask, they're just gonna give me some long thing that I think they... make it impossible.
- CWChris Williamson
That you should ask for whatever it is, forgiveness then permission.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. And it, uh... It's, it... I knew I was in the midst of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I was at a fork in the road. It's like, do you make the most of this? And I didn't know where it would go at that time. All it was was one little video, you know? But it, there was the potential to try and make something, so I did it, it went on Piers Morgan, and then the next day they kind of got pissed, but then, then I had to meet with all the lawyers, and they called me in with the head of the school, and...... who was never there, um, but she was there for that. It- they said, "Well, you didn't break any rules. You didn't- you have the releases s- and s- you didn't reveal any information. You, you handled it delicately. You didn't really take a biased position." And so, congrat- they literally said, "Congratulations," you know? And ...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
Then- but several- there were teachers there that were upset with solely on my position, my position around J.K. Rowling.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
Which yeah, I think it's unfair to call her bigoted, but I didn't really say that in the video.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
But that's where the student arrived at. So they took it as a position and there were people coming up to me like, "How were you not fired?" And I was like, "I didn't..." They said, "I didn't do anything wrong with it," you know? And ...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
But there were people that were upset and it just kinda- but we kept making- and the space kept making videos once a week and it was getting a little bit of traction and I think they just were waiting until the storm blew over to be able to pounce it. And I get it from a business perspective. It can be a liability if you have a teacher like making YouTube videos and people are actually watching them to some extent, even though it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
... very small back then. And so, but it was the way they did it. Like, I would understand if they be like, "Yeah, it's not quite our cup of tea. It's just a bit of a liability, so we're gonna part ways." But that wasn't what happened at all. It was like, "We'll sign this NDA, we'll pay you to sign this NDA." It felt like they were just trying to destroy me, dude. It was crazy. It was one of the most challenging periods of my life for sure. Like, yeah. So that's, that's the lore.
- 7:57 – 11:53
Hardship Shapes Who You Are
- WSWarren Smith
- CWChris Williamson
What have you come to reflect on with regards to that difficult time? I think a lot of people, maybe not quite so publicly, maybe not with quite so many eyeballs, but people go through periods where they get kicked in the nuts a lot. And it ha- it seems to happen sequentially, uh, in, in bunches. Um, with the benefit of hindsight now, how do you think about that experience as part of the arc of your life?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, it was the period that shaped me. It's one of the laws of narrative. Like, if you're trying to write a screenplay, you have to have obstacles for the hero to overcome or whatnot. And we're all trying to become the heroes in our own story, whether we want to admit it or not. And the more adversity, like, so literally the day, the week before that video went viral, I was watching the David Beckham documentary and I was like, "This is a really good documentary." And I- this really resonates because he was getting knocked down. He was struggling and that made it compelling. And then his son becomes a soccer player in the documentary. I was like, "I don't care about this guy at all 'cause he had no adversity. He was just handed this opportunity." I was like ... So for some reason that was in my mind, just at that time. I wouldn't change anything. I got lucky. I, I was walking a knife's edge, but I made it through. It was scary, it was really difficult, uh, but it's- I, I wouldn't change 'cause if you make one adjustment, who knows (laughs) how that would ... So I w- I wouldn't change anything, but it was ... It's been remarkable. It was th- I would describe it as like 'Cause I've been a genuine fan of, of this space, like I've been watching your show long time, the people I've gotten to meet. Imagine watching your favorite football team and suddenly overnight you're given this opportunity to be on the field and Tom Brady's throwing you the, the football and you catch it. And now you just, "I'm gonna run as far (laughs) down this field until someone tackles me, see how far I can get." That was my mentality.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
Uh, and that's what I'm doing, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's a ... I resonate with that, um, th- the ... Turning idols into rivals or friends is, uh, like a really weird sensation. Um-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a very (laughs) bizarre thing.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it takes a little bit of time for you to sort of come back down to earth and, uh, you know, everybody can play it off as cool, and I think a lot of people in this space do. And after a while you habituate, you're like, "Oh, there's Andrew Huberman," or, "Oh, there's fucking Joe Rogan," or whatever. Or like, oh, "There's Matthew McConaughey." Did Matthew McConaughey on the other week and, um, you do habituate to it in some ways, but there's a bit of me that doesn't want to. There's a bit of me that doesn't want to habituate to this. There's a bit of me that wants to say, "Yo, my favorite movie in history is Interstellar and the main guy knows me personally by name and has my phone number."
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's fucking sick.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, I should be fired up about that. Like, I should, I should every time that happens, I should be really excited and enthusiastic. I shouldn't be like, "Cooler than cool. Yeah."
- WSWarren Smith
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"It's, it's just old, it's old fucking Matt over there," you know? Double M or whatever. Like, no. Like, that's fucking (laughs) sick.
- WSWarren Smith
That's, that's how I felt.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, let it infuse you.
- WSWarren Smith
That's how I felt when J.K. Rowling sent me that message and was like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
... "Can I do anything to help?" Like that's the most treasured, like, message I've gotten. It's just a message, but ...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
It's surreal. That was so surreal.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- WSWarren Smith
So and I don't- I didn't know how to respond to it and I still think about it now that she's back in the news with everything we're talking about.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
I was like, "Man, I hope I didn't (laughs) say anything like Emma Watson did."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Hope you're fine.
- WSWarren Smith
I think it was fine.
- CWChris Williamson
Um,
- 11:53 – 15:48
Do Actions Speak Louder Than Words?
- CWChris Williamson
yeah, you've got a, uh, a quote that says, "When conversations are not allowed to occur, it only makes the problem worse."
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. We've seen that for sure. And that's similar to something that's been kinda going viral that Charlie Kirk said. He's like, w- when conversations- when we stop talking, that's when bad things happen, that's when violence occurs.... so yeah, I think conversations are absolutely essential.
- CWChris Williamson
There's only really two forms of communication that has impact. There's words, and then there's violence. Like that- I- I- I can't think of what else there is. Like, I guess music, but you're not really communicating much through music.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, there's words and action. You know, I describe it as like words are the boats floating on the surface, and we really communicate most of what we really think, I think through non-verbal communication and action. And back to the narrative idea with actors, that's what people like Matthew McConaughey really dig into is the subtext in the scene. They understand that the words are just the tools.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
And anybody given enough time can memorize that script. But what Matthew McConaughey does so well is everything else beyond the words. Right? It's- it's kind of going off on a tangent there, but that's how I- I think about it. But conflict is a form of action for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. I- I was thinking about this. I did this retreat recently, and it's the most intense thing that I've ever done. And I spent 12 hours a day from 9:00 AM until 9:00 PM basically working with emotions, uh, on a farm in Sonoma County. And, uh, I still, to be honest, don't fully know what to make of it. I haven't come back down to planet Earth fully yet. Um, but one of the things that I did realize is the amount of information that was conveyed during the exercises and the practices and the processes that we were going through as a- as a group and in pairs and on our own, so much of it was not about words. So little of it was actually about words. However, if you look at how most people communicate, it is through mediums that exclusively transact in words. There's no body language over message. There's not really even that much body language over what we're doing right now. Uh, there's ju- there's the- the aperture through which you're seeing this is squeezing this communication down. And like, you can sit with somebody, and without getting into woo energy, astral realm, fucking five-dimensional territory, you can sit with someone, and you can tell if that person that sat opposite you is calm and peaceful or agitated or sad without saying a fucking word, right? Okay. But all of that type of communication has been lost. And I wonder whether it has, um... It- it feels to me like it's led everybody, it's encouraged everybody to really lean into hypertrophying the words talking portion of things, and completely pushing to one side that, well, okay, well, how do I feel right now? Like, what is the emotional context that's going on here? How is this other person showing up? What are the things that aren't being said? What's the pacing between the- the words that they're saying? What's the tone that they're saying this in? You know, especially over text message, all of this stuff is lost. And, um, it- it reminded me, working with emotions for an entire week and basically doing like Navy SEAL boot camp for fucking feeling your feelings, um, really drilled it home to me how low resolution almost all of our communication is now, and okay, what are the implications of that if you keep on spinning it up?
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. Yeah, it's nothing replaced in person for sure. Yeah, I don't really know what to say about that. Well put though.
- 15:48 – 23:37
Should We Be Worried About Violence Escalating?
- WSWarren Smith
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Um, political violence attitudes, some new, uh, data that's just come out. The percentage of students who support using violence to stop a campus speech is up 10 points from 2021, so that's 34% against 24%. 47% of Gen Z agree that violence can be justified to advance a political goal. That's against 22% of Boomers, 47/22. In 2025, 38% of US college students said violence is acceptable to prevent hate speech on campus, and 71% of students are at least accepting of shouting down speakers, and 54% of physically blocking other students from attending a campus speech.
- WSWarren Smith
I- it's inter- I recently did a video on a- an independent journalist, a guy with a camera, on Emerson Campus, which is my college, where I still teach like one class online, but I went there for grad school and I've taught there. And he asked the students about that 34% survey.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
And their response was, "I'm surprised it's not higher." At Harvard as well, he went to Emerson and then Harvard, and at Harvard he asked that specific question. He goes, "Well, why? What do you mean?" "Well, Harvard's very liberal." And I was just thinking, think about what you're saying. Like think about the logic there.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- WSWarren Smith
It's liberals (laughs) believe that violence is an- is a legitimate form of response to speech. It's- that's just crazy. It's been a crazy time, man, after Charlie Kirk.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your- what's your post-mortem culturally on this?
- WSWarren Smith
It's... I think it's getting worse because there's that period right after it where people are walking on eggshells, the people that disagree with them, people are being very careful and kind of sympathetic with those that disagree with them. Many. There's a lot of crazy people that this doesn't apply to.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- WSWarren Smith
It's kind of this period of mourning, and then that passes and the moo- the news cycle picks back up. Events continue, and it... and people kind of revert back to their- their older ways. We're seeing what's happening at Portland. I- I just think it's- it's not looking good is my overall take. I think it was very illuminating though, seeing those responses, which has been some of...... a big wake-up call for me and I've been trying to shine a light on that as much as I can through these videos. But... sh- like, th- that hit me hard seeing that at Emerson 'cause... but it didn't surprise me. But I'm hoping that people I know, like my family that disagrees with me will see, will kind of understand more about where I'm coming from. 'Cause it's like, look, this is, like, literally where I was... I was sitting next to these kind of people for years. This kind of ex- maybe this can explain a little bit of why I am the way I am now or, or whatnot, 'cause I know they're struggling understanding that around me. So that's been, I think, a lot of... it's been a wake-up call for some people. But I'm... generally, my response would be I'm co- I'm deeply concerned about it, where this could go.
- CWChris Williamson
What does that mean? Wha- what are you deeply concerned about and where could it go?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, so ye- just yesterday, we had Nick Shirley in Portland. I... the last video I did was covering him. And a guy comes up to him, a- and Antifa, and he threatens to shoot him. And because he was putting a camera in his face, and then two snipers on top of the roof la- uh... this is what it looks like from the video, paint with their lasers on him, and Nick points... he's like, "Dude, there's a sniper pointing at you right now," and there's a dot on his chest. And it gets him to de-escalate and back off. I think it's only a matter of time until it's not just painting a target and someone pulls the trigger on either side, and that's where I'm, I'm worried that something is going to happen that's going to escalate things.
- CWChris Williamson
More so than Charlie Kirk being shot?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, what do you mean by more so? Like, what do you mean by that?
- CWChris Williamson
Because why, wha- wha- what is it that doesn't make that the escalation? We've had this event which has occurred. Uh, you're presumably... one of the things... let's say that that event hadn't occurred and you were noticing these rumblings below the surface, Charlie Kirk being shot would be the precise sort of thing that would be the sort of thing that would be an escalation. So we've seen this one. So does it... do you feel a little bit like, um, there was a bunch of kerosene on the ground and someone lit a match and flicked it, but it happened to land just, like, a little bit off it, didn't quite catch fire to everything else, but that might not be the case if another inflammatory sort of event occurs?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, yeah, the kerosene was definitely there. It is interesting to note that there was not, there was not a massive response from Charlie Kirk fans.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
We'll, we'll just, just say people on the right or whatnot. There was not rioting. And yeah, that's been pointed out. But I, I think my concern would be with that same event with the opposite side of the political spectrum. I mean, we've seen BLM, we've seen the riots. The tenden- there seems to be a tendency for certain ideologies tend to be more inclined to demonstrate frustration in different ways.
- CWChris Williamson
Huh.
- WSWarren Smith
So in a way, it's, it's like that's, that's bad. They threw something really bad at the world. And there... a small sliver of hope perhaps comes out of the fact that we were able to handle it or this side was able... of the spectrum, it didn't go bonkers. Um, I, I, I don't have a... I mean, aren't... don't, don't you feel, in a way, like this could go south? Am I, am I off for feeling like this... there's potential here for this to... 'cause you're right, that was an escalation. I'm glad it didn't spark off into violence.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
Not... there's no rioting. Yes, there's protests going off in Portland around other topics, but... I mean, what are your thoughts on it?
- CWChris Williamson
I think you're, uh, right to be concerned. Uh, it, it does say a lot that we've kind of become desensitized. You were talking about the habituation earlier on, like, "Oh, there's J.K. Rowling in my DMs." It's like, oh, there's a huge... like, another assassination attempt on a, a real public figure in the space of 12 months. And, uh, I don't... ta... it's strange, especially given that I'm still in my, my feely feels after, after my week working on emotions. It's strange that we are able to continue moving forward, that you can get up and go to work, that, like, that's just a thing that happens. And I guess, you know, h- humans need to fucking put bread on the table and go to the bathroom and, and walk the dog and stuff. But it, it, i- i-... it doesn't exactly fill me with (clears throat) hope, uh, that this is, although horrific and a- and, and atrocity, just another news story that, you know, the world continues spinning. And yeah, we've got Charlie Kirk Remembrance Day, I think, which was passed, which, which is a very nice tribute. But yeah,
- 23:37 – 29:51
Are the Left More Violent Than the Right?
- CWChris Williamson
I... one, one question that I do have that I realized while you were talking there, how do you square the circle of what you brought up, which is, um, hinting at a tendency for the left, at least parts of the left in its current iteration, to be, uh, more kinetic, um, BLM, riots, et cetera, et cetera? How do you square that circle with some of the reports that I've seen coming out from maybe domestic threats, maybe FBI statistics saying that most of the, uh, domestic terror concern comes from right-of-center groups as opposed to left-of-center groups? Have you seen this? Do you know what I'm talking about?
- WSWarren Smith
Uh, no. Is this the study that people were saying, "Oh, they removed it or something?" No, I'm not familiar with that study.
- CWChris Williamson
Basically, uh, it seems like a lot of the, uh ... Some of the studies suggest that it is groups right of center that are the biggest threat. Um, I just wonder, uh, taking my big, broad perspective of the news stories that have really come across me over the last half decade, I would say the same thing. You know, we saw ... Um, what was that place where everybody ... Charlottesville. Do you remember Charlottesville?
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when was the last time that we saw something like a Charlottesville? I, I can't remember.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, I don't re- I, I can't remember either. Oh, January 6th w- they would probably-
- CWChris Williamson
There we go. Yes. That is true. That was quite a big one. Uh, says it all-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that I've managed to forget that. Um, so yeah. Fair enough. Maybe, maybe you're right. Maybe it's, maybe it's equal on both sides, um-
- WSWarren Smith
I don't ... I'm not saying it's equal, but it's, uh ... I've been trying to look at this not through the lens of ... Because it becomes a reductive game. It's, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
To try and equivi-
- WSWarren Smith
Well, your side-
- CWChris Williamson
... equivocate between these. Yeah.
- WSWarren Smith
Well, your side ... Yeah, your side did January 6th and this, and you did this on this date, and our side did it-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- WSWarren Smith
So we're not-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- WSWarren Smith
That's not-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- WSWarren Smith
I just think it's this broad level-
- CWChris Williamson
How many January 6ths does one BLM ... How many ... Yeah.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. Because my h- my initial response, and this is the, I think for many people, it was like, "This is not right verse left, this is good versus evil." But then it's like, wait a minute, but that's exactly what can ... That's a dangerous game to play, because that's what can drive people to kill someone like Charlie Kirk, 'cause they think they're facing-
- CWChris Williamson
Ah.
- WSWarren Smith
... genuine evil. I have friends that have kind of tossed me away because the state's ... What's a friendship when you're genuinely up against fascism and genuine evil in their minds? Which is, in their minds, what I stand for, so you gotta be-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
... very careful how you diagnose that, so I've been reducing that down to its correct behavior versus incorrect behavior, really. 'Cause there's also plenty of Democrats or liberals that aren't celebrating Charlie Kirk's death and that would say, "You're ridiculous for saying these things." So it's not just Democrat, Republican, but ... So the, the cr- there's gonna be people with incorrect behavior on the right side and the left side. But I think there is something about the ideology of, or this way of thinking that has flourished from postmodernism, uh, victim mentality. It, it resonates with a certain personality that seems to me to resonate more with mass protesting, more in- inclination towards what we saw around the riots, Summer of Love, BLM riots. So I thi- I thi- I do... There is something within the ideas reflected largely on this side echo with certain types of action-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
... versus the ideas reflected on, we'll just say, the traditional cons- conservative family, more religious values. You know, the, the re- es- the per- the personal responsibility, have a family, these things. Conserve the tru- great traditions of the past. It's ... There's not as much inclination, what I just said, towards burn it down, as opposed to we're all being oppressed by this, by the West, burn it down, which is literally baked into the ideology-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
... of the ideology there.
- 29:51 – 40:04
Free Speech is Under Attack
- WSWarren Smith
- CWChris Williamson
All right, so going back to the, uh, the stats about, um, uh, campus being shouted down.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If free speech can be shouted down, does it even exist at all? Like what does it mean when it comes into contact with a human arm-in-arm blockade?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, that's a good quest- I s- I would say philosophically it still does exist, because yes, rights are always ... I got into a pickle around this but Andrew Wilson was talking about this. Rights are bound by force, rights-He's someone who claims that rights all come down, at the end of the day, to what can be enforced. So your, your right to freedom of speech (laughs) , it's only if, uh, it still is gonna be bound by force. It's only if you can protect it. But yes, I can be, people can shout me down, but that doesn't negate within the context of the legal system. Like it doesn't f-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
... negate my right.
- CWChris Williamson
But functionally.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, in the moment, functionally, you're shouting me down.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I understand you, uh, spoken like a, a, a true academic, um, that, uh, the, the theory, the principle, the philosophy of free speech is still there, but if it can can't be actioned in the real world, is that... Uh, am I being, am I being stupid here or is this like a, like a big no?
- WSWarren Smith
No, no. It would just have to be at such a large scale for it, because okay, they shout me down on the college campus. I go make a YouTube video about it-
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh.
- WSWarren Smith
... and I reach way more people.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
So, but in that moment on the college campus, yes. But I, I have this kind of, my personal philosophy, and I can't... is that there's objective truth, the fabric of reality, which is reflected by this, what I call the audience, kind of when you make a YouTube video, it's this thing that, it's not just a massive people, but, and you can't, you can't ignore, there's no escaping them. So if they shout me down on the campus, you, they can't escape the audience, which reflects the fabric of reality. So then I do make a video about it. It's almost like their oc- actions compound and it draws more attention to it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
Because they're taking an action against something that I think is very much real. These are not just social constructs.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- WSWarren Smith
The idea of freedom of speech, yes, we have these conceptualizations of them. That's how we use the words floating on the surface to articulate it. But I think these are s- the same idea are the founding fathers put forth with these truths are self-evident from God, objective truth, whatever you want to substitute there. But that's the fabric of reality. And so there's no, the audi- people can make noise, but nothing can change what is, that objective truth that we're striving for. And I think that that's what knowledge is, is trying to map onto what is truth, which is the exact opposite of postmodernism though. And that's where it gets interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think, uh, government funding should hinge on whether a university actually protects dissenting voices?
- WSWarren Smith
Protects dissenting voices? I do... Oh yeah, it's, there's a big conversation to have around tax, why taxpayers are financing places like Emerson, but they're, but, uh, they get so sneaky in those parameters. So for example, Emerson just changed what used to be the Social Justice Center because of this very issue, what you're describing, they, they just changed the name to the Office of Equal Opportunity. (laughs) Because equality is equal opportunity, equity is equal outcome. So they, they learned, and that's what colleges are doing. But then you see the video content or you talk to students and they're, "I'm surprised it's only 34% celebrating Charlie Kirchberger." It's... So, but yeah, to, my answer to you would be yes. I don't think, I'm very skeptical about the government providing tax money to these universities.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It doesn't seem to me like children and young people, students are being taught to resolve problems constructively. This feels like a skill issue.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think it's because so few of the professors, the people that would be having the conversations, uh, have differing opinions. It's just overwhelming. It's impossible to even articulate unless you see it for yourself, which is what I'm trying to do with the videos. It's the closest I can do, is when I see footage like that, that's when I get most excited. Like, my favorite video I ever made was Joe Rogan talking to a postmodern professor on his show, because to me that was like, finally I can shine a light where this is a real professor who's saying these things with his own words. 'Cause I could talk till I'm blue in the face about postmodernism, Jordan Peterson's done it, and people just don't believe you or they just roll their eyes and they're, it's too philosophical. Like they don't... But then you hear him get up there and say, "No, there's no such thing as knowledge, objective truth. Everything is a social construct." He's effectively, he's making it crystal clear that there's no such thing as the fabric of reality to strive for it. Because knowledge is evolving, therefore, his logic is we don't really know anything. And we've s- you could see where that, that goes. I guess my point is like it's just, you have to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. And that was one example where I was able to do that and I was like, "He's literally saying it to you." So if this doesn't show you, I don't know what will.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It, it feels a little bit to me like, uh, inverse exposure therapy. So the fact that so few alternate voices are, um, going onto campus that, whatever, some absurd percentage of students self-censor for fear of being judged and shamed by their fellow classmates, that you have, uh, a changing, shifting demographic when it comes to who is teaching at universities as well. Um, you even have a shifting demographic of who's attending universities, right? A significant, uh, i- increase in, in women going versus men. And i- it's very difficult to be a university professor that didn't go to university.So, like, that is... Your stock of future professors are the ones that are going. And, uh, e- all of these things together, there's a great, great study by Corey Clark. You should have a look at it. It s- stinks of you. It stinks of your channel.
- WSWarren Smith
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Brilliant. And, um, uh, she, uh, sent a survey to every psychology professor in the U.S. Didn't get a response from all of them. Got a big fucking response talking about what topics should not be, uh, allowed. And there's a huge sex difference. There's a massive sex difference between men and women. And there's a huge difference... It, it was really, really interesting. My point is, when you take this, um, milieu altogether, what you end up with is students basically never hearing top-down, uh, uh, uh, like, side-to-side, or, um, random inclusions of other people from, uh, s- speakers and, and, and guests and stuff like that. Uh, there is this ev- actually, and inside-out, right? With their own self-censorship. (laughs) Like, uh, there is just this... A increasing fragility or an increasing sort of unidi- unidimensionality- uni-dimensionality to the type of topics, uh, that they're being exposed to. Does that all make sense?
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. No. That's-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 40:04 – 46:23
Why Are Young People Supporting Political Violence?
- WSWarren Smith
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. What, what do you think is going on with young people's support of political violence? Is it because of conviction? Uh, uh, desensitization? What do you think is going on?
- WSWarren Smith
Because, going back to that fear I had about good and evil and th- being very careful about that, because they genuinely believe that they're facing true evil. So to the point where those child... Like, I'm talking my best friends, like grew up together since yay tall. In their minds, even if they don't hate me, I'm giving voice to... They can excuse me in their minds, but my videos perhaps, or talking to Joe Rogan or whoever, that is, is p- is contributing to something. Even if I'm not evil, I'm playing a role in something that is so genuinely, truly evil to them. So we need to... And then all bets are off, and that's when you see people lose friends. People do things they would never otherwise do. And the only solution to this-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
... is rational conversations. And that's sh- it... That's why this thing has made such a wake, 'cause that's exactly what Charlie was doing. He was killed doing just that. He was killed doing the solution, and it didn't work. And, uh, he was, he was killed... (laughs) He was killed for doing the thing that w- is the only thing you could do to prevent this, so that's even a double whammy. It makes it even scarier.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
You know? So... But the problem is, is that when I try and have those, th- going back to those childhood friends, when I try and have those conversations step-by-step, if I can sit down with them, I can genuinely... I guarantee you by the end of it, they won't think the way they thought coming into it. They still are gonna disagree with Trump, but that's not what it's about. It's about something deeper than that. And I can get there if you get... It might take me an hour, but I've done it. I've done it w- over and over with people in my personal life. The problem is, is that they all shut down the conversation.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- WSWarren Smith
Because it is, uh, uh, it's almost... Because the logic is not there. Because it's alm- almost as though they... Because they can't con- so the J.K. Rowling example. I get fired. I'm sitting on the porch at Christmas, my mom's house. "Yeah, guys, I get... All right, so you... Yes, I did say that about J.K. Rowling. I said that with a student. But you do understand, right? Like, so tomorrow..."Just hear me out. It's like, tomorrow, is there anything stopping me from deciding I'm a woman? Well, no, Warren, you, you c- you, logically you could. It's true. Okay. So I still have male genitalia. If I can then tomorrow walk into a women's changing room, can you understand why a m- a mother, a woman, would be uncomfortable by that? They have a problem with that. Okay. But what if she's... Yeah, but she's an adult. She should be able to get over it. Okay. But what if she has a six-year-old? Can you understand why she would be uncomfortable with that? And, uh, I, there's no way to... How do you contend with, with that argument? If you can see a flaw in that, like challenge me on it, that would be really... If you can provide any pushback on anything, please do 'cause that's where this, these things get interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
It would make it way more interesting, too.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
'Cause conflict drives story. It's the central law of narrative.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
But that's my answer to you, is why, it's just the lo- it comes down to the logic.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. It seems like you are getting... It, it seems like this is sort of really hitting at, at something deep for you, like this mission and the challenges that you're facing by sort of trying to come head-to-head with this, whether it's virtually or in your personal life.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. It's been f- infuriating. It's, it's... And that would be my response to them, a family member when they say that, it's like, look, if everyone, when I come home or if... And this is before viral videos or doing YouTube or anything. This was years ago. I would say, look, if I'm... Everyone of you hates me because of this, right? If all the people, your friends, they all hate me now, but if I'm still (laughs) willing to have these conversations and want to rationally step-by-step walk you through it, maybe that would indicate that if I'm still tr- doing this and I'm still standing firm on it, maybe that would be an indicator that I've thought this through and I have a reason why. And I think that goes back to your previous question. That's one of the reasons I think that they shut down the conversations, because there's something, there's... That kinda goes back to the logic of it. It's, it's, you, I have thought this through. Like, I have a reason. I've ex- I've, and that's why that video at Emerson was so important to me, because that was my opportunity to kinda, to shine a window on what I've been go- like what I've, the people I have sat with for years. And it's, there's no words for it, but I can sh- with a camera, I can show it. I don't need words.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Oh, it's, uh, it's weird. W- I guess we're not too far off from Thanksgiving now and, uh, every year there's this same sort of memes come up-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
...online. How to speak to your bigoted uncle this year over the Th- or the re- sort of based reversed version of that which is three sentences to say to totally torpedo this year's (laughs) Thanksgiving dinner.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, it, people are gonna be thinking about this, man. I would love... You know what would be great and ridiculously difficult to do as a st- a survey, would be, um, some sort of analysis of the, uh, average volume, uh, like sentiment analysis and volume and speaking cadence and like antagonism around the Thanksgiving table. Like it's just a one, once per year, uh, little test, like a, a, a core sample right out of the ground. Like we'll take this one and take this one and take this one. And, uh, I have to assume that that curve is just getting really fucking steep and like really, really getting up there now. And, um, I, I think
- 46:23 – 51:56
Violent Media is Shaping Violence Tolerance
- CWChris Williamson
another question that I've got, we, we always hear, we heard this around Trump, um, you know, uh, people made, uh, um, a bunch of jokes about, uh, thoughts and prayers to, quote, literally Hitler, um, that it's really difficult to, with one sentence, say that this guy is fascist, beginning of the end, reincarnation of the Third Reich, and with the other, uh, show compassion. And that th- th- those two things seem a little bit tough because I guess the subtext, the implication is the, uh, language that you used in the first case is the reason for the event which caused the need for the apology, right, that when you use inflammatory language, when you use sort of violent media, um, my question is basically how much of that is shaping young people's tolerance for real world violence? Like is it just reflecting what's happening bottom up or is it actually pushing it forward, sort of normalizing this kind of language, demonizing one side and the other? And it's not as if this is only going in one direction. Like the demonization goes in both.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah. But there's, there's legitimate... That's the problem is there's legitimately wrong behavior, objectively wrong. But like I, I think it is safe to say that it's objectively wrong to celebrate Charlie Kirk's death and the response, some of the responses we've seen are crossing, I think, an objective measurable line. Um, it, again, it's gonna, it's because we see the world through stories. We make sense because we're narrative creatures. And we, conflict drives story. And it's this thing that's driving people to genuinely believe the other side is, is evil while also holding the, the thought in mind that there is evil there and we can see examples of where that is. That's what I started, that's why I started the response with that because it does exist, you just gotta be careful about it. The solution I, the only solution is to teach... People that are claiming these things about fascism, they need, people need to, uh, explain more what fascism actually is. And it's such a... That's why I keep saying I did get to talk to Joe Rogan and I was trying to delve into that a little bit with him because that is the singular, to me, a window in time that has so much insight be- and look today, it's people are throwing around fascism which echoes back to them but they don't understand what fascism is.And yeah, it's slightly d- it is difficult to define in a single sentence, but I think it's the authoritarian pursuit of national purity through force. Something around those lines at the very core of it, and then components can be switched out. But it's a dangerous, it's a dangerous game. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the, uh, I think you're asking like how to, where that's coming from.
- CWChris Williamson
Which direction basically? Is it simply, is the violent r- uh, how impactful, it's the age old question of like, do violent video games make children violent? What I'm asking is, is violent media as in the sort of language, inflammatory, uh, especially sort of escalating up and, and using, um, really horrific examples of people from history or from movies or from whatever to describe someone? Like Jordan Peterson was Red Skull, right? From, uh-
- WSWarren Smith
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
... the M- the Marvel comics. Um, I'm sure that there's been a Thanos example used somewhere. And I'm sure that the right as well is slinging its fair share of murdered, y- wh- whatever this particular person is that's coming in to sterilize the youth, or whatever it might be.
- WSWarren Smith
Well, let's try and hone in on that. Like what would an example be on the right? 'Cause I know it, it's absolutely happening on the, on the left, like Red Skull.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
Th- the accusations of fascism. It, it's everywhere. But what would be ... L- let's try and identify it on the other side.
- CWChris Williamson
So the problem for me, I think, is that the response to these sorts of stories is always larger than the initial story itself. And that means that given most of what I follow online is center, center right, uh, what I see is crazy left of center stories that are then being responded to by somebody from The Daily Wire, whatever, whatever it might be. It does seem to ... I'm trying to equivocate basically to, um, at least give the opportunity that I don't know everything. I'm, I, I don't see all of the internet. And I'm like, look, given that maybe there is some stuff out there, I have to assume that there is some stuff, but you might be right. M- I may have a perfectly representative perspective. My sample may be like absolutely perfect when it comes to understanding what I see on the internet. If I was to go by my own algorithm, which is obviously hugely fucking biased, if I was to go by my own algorithm, I would say, yes, there does seem to be a lot more of that inflammatory language going from left to right. The purity spiral stuff, uh, the, um, holier than thou, the very, very sort of, uh, accusatory vindictive, uh, over exaggerated language does seem to go in one direction. But I just need to leave myself open to the fact that-
- WSWarren Smith
I see what you mean.
- CWChris Williamson
... I don't, I-
- WSWarren Smith
It's on the right too. You're right. Uh, there's peop- the accusations around Jews, things like that. It's, there's, there's a, I mean, racism. There's, I, you see it on X. Cra- it, there's lines being that personally I don't think that, there's certain lines I don't think should be crossed are being crossed on X. For sure, you're right.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- 51:56 – 1:01:37
When Does Behaviour Cross the Line?
- WSWarren Smith
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I mean, you had, you had this idea about when, when you know that sort of behavior has gone too far. Or like, is this such a thing, the line between correct and incorrect behavior?
- WSWarren Smith
There you go. That's the, that's the question at the heart of it because ... So going back to postmodern thinking, which most people echoing this sentiment don't realize they're talking about postmodernism. So you go to a therapist. The therapist, to them there's no such thing as correct behavior. They're not gonna tell you what to do.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
They're not, they're just gonna affirm.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
Because it's just a matter of perspective. There's no such thing as the right way to do something. There is no ideal behavior in any given scenario in that world view. But I disagree. That's why I talk about the fabric of reality, which we strive for. Even if you can't achieve that ideal, you have to have the target to aim for, which means there is an ideal, whether we can achieve it or not. There is a best way to behave in any given scenario. And the o- you can judge that. If you had parallel universes that you could measure each different type of action and then you could actually see the outcomes, you could st- compare those outcomes, and one logically will have to be better than all other potential outcomes. One has to be, but you have to have a way to quantify it, right? Like so ... But so to answer, yeah, there's, there is. That's, we've lost sight of that. It's become this postmodern idea of everything is just a matter of perspective and it's equally valid. There's no narrative, no shared meta-narrative. There's no ideal shared story that is better than any other story. Everything is equal. It's just a matter of perspective.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
And that's really a dangerous, that's really a dangerous idea. So I'm glad you mentioned that.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you, how do you operationalize this? How do you, h- wh- what does it mean for society to say that behavior is bad or that it's gone too far or that, that this is something, this is, th- this is a line that's been crossed? You mentioned that before. I feel like a line has been crossed.
- WSWarren Smith
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And that was a line who's been crossed within speech, right?
- WSWarren Smith
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um-
- WSWarren Smith
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about that. I need you to dig into this.
- WSWarren Smith
That's why we have the legal framework, because that's the closest we can come to actually writing in black and white what these lines are. So freedom of speech, for example, how do we determine when speech crosses that objective line? Well, hate speech, no, 'cause who can define hate speech? We can't. There's no way to determine where that line exists. So the best we can do, the least bad way of approaching this, they're all gonna be flawed. The least bad one is to say, okay, we have these laws that draw these lines, calls to violence, defamation, whatever they are, but those are laws. And beyond that, you have legal freedom of speech. Now yes, an employer can create their own framework 'cause they have the freedom to pay who they wanna pay and how they wanna do it.But we're talking about the larger framework, and that's really what laws act as, which is why the JK Rowling debate comes back to where the rubber meets the road, which is the legal framework. Tomorrow, if I can decide that I'm a woman, the real question is, am I a woman under the law? Not, do you need to use my pronoun? That- that is the question. Everything else is beneath that question. It's, am I treated as a woman under the law? Because today, if I were to walk into that space, that changing room, they have the legal right to call the police. Now, tomorrow, if I can decide I'm a woman and I walk in that same space, do they have the legal right to call the police? It has larger ramifications, and that's what JK Rowling has been trying to articulate to everyone, just that. It all comes back to that, which all comes back to the legal framework, which is our attempt to create these objective laws.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Well, I mean, it is, uh... I- I was gonna say it's a shame that we have to rely on the legal framework to get people to behave in a pro-social manner, but maybe that's just like human nature is.
- WSWarren Smith
I don't think we do. It's just we have to have some- we have to have it written. We have to have the constraints. It doesn't mean-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Sorry. I don't mean- I, I don't mean that it's a shame that that is a thing that exists. It obviously needs to exist. My point is, it's a shame that we're having to think about that as what we now rely on as opposed to, you know, common decency, shared humanity, et cetera, et cetera, like massive scaling problem when you don't see people as your neighbor, you don't see them as human. I realized this. There was- there was this insight that I'd had. Um, I think watching the rise of- of... Peterson was the first one that I really saw this with. There seems to be a level of fame or exposure or notoriety, uh, threshold. And when people cross that, some big portion of the world doesn't see them as a human anymore. They see them as a conglomeration of ideas. They're a representation of an- like an ideology or- or- or story or narrative or something.
- WSWarren Smith
Yes, right there, the story, 'cause we see- because we're narrative creatures and we see the world through stories. We cannot separate the character from the story.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
So when you see Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, it's all the past context you have psychologically is impacting how you see them. The only way to really perceive that, the massive amount of that effect would be to have parallel universes where you could have a politician who's Trump do the exact same action, same proposed policy, but doesn't have the backstory, the story of Trump. And you could see how the audience responds, and you could have some quantifiable outcome. That's the only way we could ever begin to really observe just how powerful this effect is.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. But the thing that you notice, at least that- that- that I saw when this threshold is- has been breached, um, people seem to be prepared to do and say things that they wouldn't of a person who doesn't have that story armor, whatever it is that they think that they've got, well, that hasn't gone through that altitude. Um, and it was disheartening. It was disheartening to think, you know, these people are still people, uh, o- on the other side of this. Like, if you say this thing or send this thing, th- I've spent the last seven and a half years, you're- you'll be episode like 1005. At no point on this journey to building this platform has someone sat me down and taught me about like the super secret squirrel technique that is only taught to people that are moderately fucking well-known on the internet of how to not feel really disturbed when nasty shit happens. Like there's no... And- and- the, you know, champagne problems, you know, what an issue. Do you not know that people are in poverty, you just need to make video... All the... Hey, hey, I- I do not disagree, but the social issues are still the social issues. Like if you felt ostracized or condemned or- or- or like you were being accused of all of these things, um, it would be tough. And, uh, yeah, it- it was just- it was really interesting to me that there is a size that you get to where you are no longer seen as a human, and it changes the way that people behave. And I fear that Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk had breached that as well.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, I don't- I wouldn't know about that. I'm not near that size you have. Charlie Kirk did, but I think you're right. I think you're... And I've heard you talk about this before, I understand it's a real... Uh, and I know people dismiss it as champagne problems, but it comes with baggage. Just my little bit of whatever this is that I'm do- it, yeah, it's- it has... There's a cost for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. But it's-
- WSWarren Smith
I get what you mean.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, uh, it's not just the cost, I don't think. It's the lack of- it's the lack of humanity from people seeing- seeing those individuals that, like Joe Rogan, like you can do and say whatever you want about that guy or, you know, like pick somebody on the other side. Like, holy fuck, like some of the stuff, true or not, funny or not, that was said about Joe Biden last year was fucking horrific. Like, think about if you are that guy, you're this dude who has been thrust into a position that you were physiologically really, really gonna struggle with, probably pumped with all manner of whatever they needed to keep that racehorse running for the space of four years, and you're just like... Ah, it made- it made me feel really sad. Made me feel really, really sad for him, for the human that is Joe Biden. Like, holy fuck. It's so awful what he had to go through. And, um... But people are just like, "Well, you know, like, uh, you rise to the top and you're- you're- you're... The- the arrows are gonna be slung your way or whatever." I don't know. Maybe I'm too much of a pussy about this. Maybe-
- WSWarren Smith
No, no, it's not that you're being a pussy, it's because you...... y- 'cause your ego is in check, and you have, so your ego is not flawed 'cause you've achieved success. You know, you're like a handsome guy, tall, worked out- you work out, whatever, all that stuff. It's like you don't have anything to prove, so you are now in this place where you have the... I get what you mean. I don't know the words for it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- 1:01:37 – 1:09:03
Ego is Driving a Loss of Humanity
- WSWarren Smith
- CWChris Williamson
What's the relationship with ego and dehumanizing people?
- WSWarren Smith
I think we want to dehumanize people from a place of ego often. It's like, uh, well, it depends on the example. Maybe w- i- if you dislike someone, a co-worker, for exam- maybe this is a bad example 'cause it would be-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
... a co-worker, but they have something you don't have. Or someone makes a video criticizing Chris Williamson's take on this political thing and do you respond with a counter video that's-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- WSWarren Smith
... kind of going off the wall? And when you, w- peop- a person that would respond is probably doing so from a place of ego. I think it often comes from that thing that we call ego, uh, what ego means. We could, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
At least for me, it, it, perhaps part of it is the, uh, champagne problems thing. Uh, uh, this person has enough going on that th- th- there's like a ballast in the system, right? They've got like enough, enough buffer stability that I can use them as this sort of, um, like rhetorical punching bag in a way. Uh, eh, when Jordan was ill, uh, a few years ago, um, or when, who was the guy who got attacked by the dude in the h- with the, with the hammer in the house, like last year? Uh-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, I forget his-
- CWChris Williamson
Not Elizabeth Warren's husband. Somebody else's husband. And, uh, i- on that you go, Jesus Christ, like, an old dude getting attacked-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... by a guy in his house. And, um, uh, look, maybe this is just wha- m- m- maybe this is the most basic b- bitch point in history, which is, uh, people become famous and then people take the piss out of them and are mean. Like, perhaps it's that, but it feels like it's something a little bit deeper than that to me, this sort of loss of humanity. And, uh, I wonder whether it's tribalism, that this person begins to represent something that you either agree with or disagree with. So they're kind of like a flag bearer in some sort of a way, or a totem, or a mascot. And like, you're behind this thing or you're against this thing. And if it's a big thing, like you kind of throw arrows at it, or, and if you're with it then you kinda defend it vehemently, and that, you know, just naturally sort of spirals up the inflammatory language. Maybe that plays a role. I feel, I feel like it does.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, it is, it... The example of Jordan Peterson, if people were, people, yeah, the way they were attacking him, the way they're gonna continue, oftentimes I do think it comes from that part that's missing from them. It's almost as though they're jealous of, in some way, they would never say this probably, whether it's his ability to think, what he has achieved, or being at peace with straddling two worlds and not, you know, falling into one tribe. What you're talking about, this team mentality, I think is so silly. Uh, because like, (laughs) whereas people, so many people are, it's like, "I'm on this team, therefore I'm gonna check off all the boxes," and that's how they form their thinking. It's just, I don't understand that, as opposed to going point by point following the logic.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, yeah, I mean, if you, if I know one of your opinions, and from it I can accurately predict everything else that you believe, you're probably not a serious thinker.
- WSWarren Smith
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? You've, you've taken a onesie and put it on-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and called it an outfit. Um, but no, that, that's monothinking, right? And, uh, you know, it's because the demand for answers outstrips most people's supply. And in, in that case, you have to retrofit all issues, all questions are given the same answer. Everything is climate change, or everything is capitalism, or everything is progressivism, or everything is LGBT-
- WSWarren Smith
Fascism.
- CWChris Williamson
... everything is fascism, yeah. Um, and that monothinking is a great shortcut. The human brain loves those, right? Um-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... but it's an indication, like if you've just... Here's a good way to think about it. When was the last time that a content creator that you like, or a, um, person that you read, or, uh, uh, some p- uh, news contributor, when was the last time that they surprised you with their take? Like, I would say, for instance, that Bill Maher is somebody who regularly surprises me with his takes.
- WSWarren Smith
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that makes me... Sam Harris fucking almost always surprises me with his takes. If I was to like roll a dice and try and predict what it is that's going to come next out of Bill Maher or Sam Harris, there's some, I have some predictive power, but not that much to be honest. And I'm like, "Wow, that, fuck, I didn't think he was gonna say that." Um, and that's good. I think that's a good thing.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But what it feels like to people on your side, it looks, i- i- it feels like you're an unreliable ally. And what it looks like to people on the other side is a lack of conviction. It's like, "See, see, he's not with them on that thing." I mean, he was with them on whatever, but ch- January 6th, he's not with them there, and he was with them on COVID masking but he's not with them on immigration. And you go, "Okay, that looks so much like an opportunity for both sides." Like people on y- in your own camp, and people in the other camp, neither of them are going to agree with you for you dissenting. The other group is gonna remember the fact that you didn't agree with them previously, and your own group is going to be like, "Wow, Warren, fucking hell."I thought you were with us on gun control.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You were with us on immigration, or you were with us on economic policy-
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or on healthcare. And, uh, I- I'm obsessed with this idea, fucking obsessed with this idea : Yeah. ... of modern thinking. It's so cool.
- 1:09:03 – 1:11:55
Warren’s View on Communication in the Future
- CWChris Williamson
what do you think the ne- I mean, you, you don't have a crystal ball, but, uh, what do you think the next few years looks like in terms of the way that this communication goes forward? Have you got any early inclinations?
- WSWarren Smith
Well, the, the ramifications of, like, this technology, this medium's changing everything. We're seeing that it's hider, it's harder to hide anything. And in that sense, I think it's a good thing, because I do have this sense of the fabric of reality exists and that the audience doesn't lie, that audience meaning that's reflecting what is. And we don't wanna pull the wool over their eyes. The more transparency, the better. As f- uh, there's al- there's that pendulum that seems to swing from the left to the right. I, I d- I don't know what will happen. I don't, I mean, as far as politics, I would never consider myself a political expert. It's difficult. It's, it's a, it's a, I think the universities are in real trouble. They're in real trouble. And that's another thing Peterson's right about. I don't know how they're gonna come back from it. So there's gonna be big change around that. I think that this agent Hollywood is transforming. They're trying to catch up with these technologies. They're realizing that the ability to connect to that audience, that thing that's reflecting the fabric of reality has shif- shifted. I don't, you probably have an agent. If you don't, I'm sure there's agents looking at you, because they're launching new departments recognizing that this is the future. And what the real ramifications of that are, I do not know. What the real ramifications are of this conflict between good, uh, not politics, but right versus wrong behavior, I think, well, going back to the beginning of the conversation with J. There's something shifting, which is why Emma Watson came out and-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- WSWarren Smith
... made those comments. Something, something's shifting for the better.
- CWChris Williamson
Warren Smith, ladies and gentlemen.
- WSWarren Smith
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I, uh, I appreciate you very much and, uh, I applaud you for taking something that could have been horrific and turning it into a, a springboard to, to make something great. So that's, uh, that's real alchemy there. Where should people go if they wanna check out all of your stuff?
- WSWarren Smith
Oh, just YouTube, Warren Smith Secret Scholars Society. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah.
- WSWarren Smith
Yeah, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I appreciate you. Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Go on.
Episode duration: 1:11:55
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