Lessons From Afghanistan & Capturing Somali Pirates | Roderic Yapp | Modern Wisdom Podcast 133

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   If we got into…

   1. RYRoderic Yapp0:00

      If we got into a firefight and some civilians got injured, we would allow them to come into the base. We'd patch them up and we'd give them US dollars. Um, and so it's sort of, sort of a really kind of blunt compensation tool. And this was kind of when I really early on learnt that lesson of be very careful what you measure and the way in which you incentivize people. Because after a while, we started to get the same girl coming in over and over again, and the boss sort of sat us down and said, you know, "You guys haven't been in a firefight. There's been no contact in the area in the last sort of few days. Am I right in thinking that?" And I was like, "Yeah, 100%, nothing. No fights with the Taliban." He said, "Okay. So why is this girl coming in with fresh gunshot wounds?" On closer inspection, we realized that they're not 5.56 rounds, they're 7.62, so it's not our ... it's unlikely to be our weapon systems that are causing these. And what we found out was that this girl's family were effectively shooting her, bringing her in, and using her as a cash cow to make money. And then when we realized the game was up and we weren't doing this anymore, they shot her with an RPG, and she came in with no lower jaw. And I remember thinking, like, couple of things. A, it's an accident of history to be born in the UK and how lucky I am, and B, I don't ******* understand this place.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:21

      (wind blowing) I'm joined by Roderick Yapp, former Royal Marines Officer, now moved into business, so we're gonna be talking about some of your background today. Also, about how that's translated across into this new, the new world that you've stepped into. One that's even more dangerous, even more vicious (laughs) than the one that you were in before. Roderick-

   3. RYRoderic Yapp1:42

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson1:42

      ... welcome to the show.

   5. RYRoderic Yapp1:43

      Thanks very much, Chris. Very happy to be here.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:45

      Looking forward to speaking to you. So, give us a bit of background. What- what's your heritage? Where do you come from, and what did you do?

   7. RYRoderic Yapp1:54

      So, um, my first career was as an officer in the Royal Marines. Um, I left university in 2003, 2004, struggling to remember now, um, really with an aspiration to do sort of something completely different, um, and I remember ... There were a number of reasons that sort of, you know, caused me to go down that route, but fundamentally it really was sort of seeking a challenge and trying to do something that was different, um, and I've found in life that, you know, if you, if you're faced with a series of sort of paths, choose the one that's the most difficult, because then you're gonna learn the most about yourself, um, and ultimately, that's- that's what I chose to do. So I joined up in 2005. I served for seven years, um, and was lucky enough to go to Afghanistan, um, got civilians out of Libya in 2011 during the Arab Spring, and then towards the end of my time, specialized in counter-piracy and did a couple of tours off the coast of, uh, Somalia and the Indian Ocean. So, uh, had an absolutely fantastic time, um, left when I turned 30 for a sort of number of reasons, ch- primarily kind of domestic, got married in my final year, didn't really wanna be an absent parent, um, and have since then, um, been working in the corporate world before starting my own business.

   8. CWChris Williamson3:06

      Why did you say, "Fortunate enough to go to Afghanistan"?

   9. RYRoderic Yapp3:10

      Um, because I think, uh, whilst I did choose to join the Royal Marines, I joined at a time where the operational tempo was really, really significant. You know, we were go- we were doing sort of back-to-back tours of a really demanding environment, and I think that I consider myself lucky to have been out to those places, been tested in that environment, because I think I'd have found it really frustrating if I'd gone through training and then frankly done a sort of series of exercises or prepared for a war that wasn't going to happen. You know, within 12 months of passing out training, I was being shot at and being tested in a really hostile demanding environment. So I consider myself lucky to have been there, done that, but also survived it and come out the other side (laughs) .

   10. CWChris Williamson3:56

       Yeah, I get that. There's not many people I know that would've said, "Lucky for being selected to be shot at in Afghanistan."

   11. RYRoderic Yapp4:03

       (laughs) It's- it's a sort of slightly strange way of looking at it, but, I mean, uh, there are a number of people that, you know, that I sort of work with, even now, sort of former Royal Marines officers, you know, who joined the- the Corps in the sort of '90s and- and didn't- and weren't lucky enough to kind of experience that, you know. They were maybe going to Ireland, uh, which wasn't as sort of kinetic and as aggressive as sort of Afghanistan and Iraq, so they were just- j- just because of the political situation, they didn't get the chance to- to go and experience it, and- and I was lucky like that.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:35

       (sighs) So, talk me through what it's like coming out of university, because I had a bunch of friends as well who were in OTC when they were at uni, um-

   13. RYRoderic Yapp4:45

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson4:46

       ... Officer Training Corps, and they had the potential, "Oh, maybe I'll go Sandhurst. Maybe I'll do whatever." What's it like being a student-

   15. RYRoderic Yapp4:53

       (sighs)

   16. CWChris Williamson4:53

       ... and, you know, going out on the lash a few nights a week like most of the people that all of us know if we went to uni with them, and, "Oh, hiya mate. See you at rugby on Saturday," stuff like that, and then, you know, within ... How long is it before you're on tour? Two years?

   17. RYRoderic Yapp5:06

       Um, yeah, about that, um, although for some it was much shorter, um, because of the way the rotations worked. Uh, guys joined up as civilians in August 2005, and by Christmas 2006, they were on the front line leading 30 guys.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:24

       Shit the bed.

   19. RYRoderic Yapp5:25

       And I was like, like, you know, you look at every other grad scheme, right? You look at what-

   20. CWChris Williamson5:30

       (laughs)

   21. RYRoderic Yapp5:30

       ... PwC, Deloitte, all these other companies offer you.

   22. CWChris Williamson5:33

       (laughs)

   23. RYRoderic Yapp5:33

       You tell me one, right, that gives you 15 months of leadership training, uh, in some fairly demanding circumstances, and your first job is line managing 30 people in combat. I was like, there's- there's nowhere that offers any level of development anywhere near that. Um-

   24. CWChris Williamson5:50

       That's an interesting analogy, a way- a way to draw it across. Yeah, you would ... Uh, y- I mean, I had again one of my ... The housemate that actually was in the OTC, JT.

   25. RYRoderic Yapp5:58

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson5:59

       Um, he went straight out of uni at 21 and did the, uh, Aldi graduate scheme.

   27. RYRoderic Yapp6:05

       ... okay.

   28. CWChris Williamson6:05

       And that's, like, widely regarded as, you know, sort of one of the toughest ones that you can do.

   29. RYRoderic Yapp6:09

       (laughs) Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson6:09

       But he wasn't getting shot at 15 months later.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      and say, "What fucking savages." Like, "How dare-"

   2. RYRoderic Yapp15:03

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:03

      "... you do that to someone." And then on the flip side of that, I think, well, would you have said the same thing about someone in the 1400s, in the, you know, in the tw- in 1200 AD? Would you have said the same if someone was coming and essentially freeing these peasants from this life that they had and gifting them wealth in-

   4. RYRoderic Yapp15:26

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:26

      ... th- they would never ever be able to access themselves? Like, oh, well, maybe it's a little bit more... Again, I, I just have no, I have no way to frame that.

   6. RYRoderic Yapp15:34

      I mean, I think it's, it's, um, it's really... So if, if we, if we stick with that kind of... if we view it as a sort of different time zone, you know, 800 years prior or something, something akin to that kind of era, um, you, you sort of move past... I guess you kind of... it, it becomes easier to sort of move past judgment. You know, if you take your ancestors, I should imagine 800 years ago your ancestors probably did some really unpleasant things (laughs) . Um, but they did what they had to do to survive. They did what they were taught to do. They did I guess what they thought was appropriate given the context that they were faced with. And I think that it's really easy to judge people with a historical perspective. You often get this in The States at the moment, you know, where the sort of founding fathers maybe had some different views on slavery-

   7. CWChris Williamson16:22

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RYRoderic Yapp16:22

      ... um, you know, and people are like, "Oh, this is really bad, we must, you know, we-"

   9. CWChris Williamson16:24

      George Washington owned slaves and like he-

   10. RYRoderic Yapp16:26

       Exactly, yeah. Yeah, "We've gotta, we've gotta erase them from history." And I'm like, "Well, hang on a sec." If, if the subsequent generations judge the past and the behavior of the people that came before them, it's a really easy question to sort of judge them and go, "Well, you know, that was disgraceful." My challenge is to... What, what are your grandchildren, what are your great-grandchildren gonna judge you for? You know, in 100 years time when your, you know, if you live to that age, your, you're sat there with your grandchild and they turn round and go, "I can't believe you used to do that."

   11. CWChris Williamson16:56

       Mm.

   12. RYRoderic Yapp16:57

       What are they gonna be talking about? And I've-

   13. CWChris Williamson16:59

       But-

   14. RYRoderic Yapp16:59

       ... no idea really-

   15. CWChris Williamson17:00

       I think a-

   16. RYRoderic Yapp17:00

       ... but it's a more interesting question.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:02

       ... I think a very good suggestion for what that might be is factory farming. There's a lot of very clever people that I know who think that in couple of hundred years or more, let's say that we're able to create a cost-effective grown petri dish meat which-

   18. RYRoderic Yapp17:21

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson17:21

       ... allows people to f- hit that particular caloric requirement but without having to create animals literally to be slaughtered. I think that that world would look back on us and think, "Hang on, you did... you, you threw away 50% of every chicken, o- all of the chicken breeds that you made literally just into a meat grinder." I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, um-

   20. RYRoderic Yapp17:43

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson17:43

       ... but I spend time around some ones that are terrifyingly clever and I'm kind of drinking the Kool-Aid at least a little bit from them. But yeah, like, you, you did... what? You just... they were born and then taken away from their mum so that their mum would give milk so that you could drink the milk as opposed to... You know, that, that to me I think is one of those... And you're right, the beauty of, uh, hindsight is that it's 20/20 vision-

   22. RYRoderic Yapp18:08

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson18:08

       ... and you have this amazing perspective where you're able to see-... "Oh, well, this is framed within the values of now," and it's like, yes, but it wasn't now, it was then. And now-

   24. RYRoderic Yapp18:19

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson18:19

       ... is now. And in the future, it won't be now either.

   26. RYRoderic Yapp18:22

       Yeah. And that's the thing. And, and I, uh, that's one of the sort of, I guess, my concerns about the modern world, is that it's so easy to take someone out of context. It's so easy to make a sort of snap judgment on someone that maybe says something and is kind of thinking out loud. Um, and people are so quick to jump all over that stuff, and it can be really, really damaging to people's careers and reputations. Um, and I think it shuts down debate, which I don't think is helpful.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:53

       Not at all.

   28. RYRoderic Yapp18:53

       Um, fundamentally.

   29. CWChris Williamson18:54

       Especially with the frictionless communication which we've got.

   30. RYRoderic Yapp18:57

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

      a target of halving world poverty within, I think it was 40 years, and they did-

   2. RYRoderic Yapp30:06

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:06

      ... it within like 25 or something.

   4. RYRoderic Yapp30:09

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:09

      And the change-

   6. RYRoderic Yapp30:10

      Uh-

   7. CWChris Williamson30:10

      ... in, in, uh, poverty across the world, people that were living below that particular... Which I think is actually only about $4,000, I think it's about $4,000 a year is-

   8. RYRoderic Yapp30:18

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:19

      ... is around about the, the, uh, barrier for that. And that they hit it within, uh, essentially half the time or like two thirds of the time.

   10. RYRoderic Yapp30:26

       ... yeah. I mean, it's-

   11. CWChris Williamson30:27

       (laughs)

   12. RYRoderic Yapp30:27

       ... it is, it is, it's astonishing actually, kind of how good things are. You know, the murder rate, for example, another one massively down on where it used to be.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:36

       How do you... What I was trying to do with my second analogy there was, how do we hold two, two things in mind at the same time? The first one being, we are living in the best time that there ever has been, in one of the best countries that there is to live in-

   14. RYRoderic Yapp30:52

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson30:53

       ... whilst we can be better. How do we hold those two things in our mind at the same time?

   16. RYRoderic Yapp31:01

       I mean, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think you can be grateful for what you've got but harness that thirst and that ambition to improve the status quo. I mean, I'm really thankful for everything I've got, you know, two healthy children, you know, a, a wife that loves me, um, and a business that is, that frankly like, is work that I love doing, and I'm (laughs) really enjoy it. Like, I've, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a nine on the scale of, you know, uh, gratitude. Really, I've got nothing, nothing that I'm not, uh, you know, largely happy about. But that doesn't mean that I feel I've achieved everything I want to. Um, I still have a sort of really strong dr- drive and a desire to, I guess, improve the situation for other people, um, or improve the status quo. Um, I, I get uncomfortable, I get uncomfortable when people give me really nicely, you know, refined, you know, answers to the way things are because, uh, I just don't think the world works like that. I think everything is kind of a work in progress, um, and I c- I'm kinda happy with that.

   17. CWChris Williamson32:19

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RYRoderic Yapp32:20

       Um, I think you can hold those two things. I think you can, I think you can love, for example, I think you can love your children for the person that they are, but I think you can have high expectations of them, and you can hold them to account. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um, so I, I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I think that they are, um, I, I think that you can hold those two, two things in your mind.

   19. CWChris Williamson32:42

       It comes back to nuances as well though, doesn't it? What we were talking about before.

   20. RYRoderic Yapp32:46

       100%.

   21. CWChris Williamson32:46

       You've got to be able to have that subtlety in your conversation and to be allowed to play with ideas, because it's n- you know, we're, we're trying to work something out here-

   22. RYRoderic Yapp32:54

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson32:54

       ... you know your kids better than anyone else on the planet. And even you are still thinking, "Okay, so how can I even just express briefly what I mean when I say that I like, uh, m- my, my children, I love them for who they are, but I want them to be better?" You know, even if that's all that you're grappling with is to try and linguistically make it make sense, how do you then deploy... You know, it's difficult. It's hard.

   24. RYRoderic Yapp33:14

       Massively. Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson33:15

       These things are challenging, and I think it's a, there's a lot of laziness that comes from people who want to be able to just put a single, a tweet length-

   26. RYRoderic Yapp33:25

       Yes.

   27. CWChris Williamson33:25

       ... like conclusion to whatever it is, or, you know, back from that even more and just a label, like a single word.

   28. RYRoderic Yapp33:33

       Yeah. That's what the trouble... And that's one of the problems is that I think, you know, everyone wants the executive summary.

   29. CWChris Williamson33:39

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RYRoderic Yapp33:40

       You know, I don't, I don't wanna know the working out. I don't know why, how you got to the answer. I want the executive summary, I want the Twitter answer.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm. Do you think…

   1. RYRoderic Yapp45:00

      do for a couple of million pounds? Probably again it kind of changes the sort of risk-reward (laughs) criteria for people. Um, for them, you know, again, it's life and death. It is literally, it can be as simple as that. You know, there is n- there is almost no other way to provide for their families so they choose to go and do this. Which again is, is why I, I won't judge them, 'cause if I was born on that side of the world would I be comfortable to pick up a rifle and go and provide for my family? Well, I did it here, so probably.

   2. CWChris Williamson45:30

      Mm. Do you think that... Are th- are there some of the pirates that you encountered that did it with glee?

   3. RYRoderic Yapp45:39

      I don't. I don't think so. Certainly not. W- with us they were fairly contrite.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:47

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   5. RYRoderic Yapp45:47

      Um-

   6. CWChris Williamson45:48

      I mean, they've been caught.

   7. RYRoderic Yapp45:50

      But they've been caught.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:51

      (laughs)

   9. RYRoderic Yapp45:51

      Um, even when we'd fly the helicopter past, they had a sort of understanding of our rules of engagement. You know, they would hold up, you know, rocket-propelled grenade launchers in a very kind of, "I've got this, so fuck off."

   10. CWChris Williamson46:06

       (laughs)

   11. RYRoderic Yapp46:06

       "Otherwise this is going to be Blackhawk down." 'Cause, you know, if they turn it and face it at us, that's a threat to life. We can engage them and we can shoot them with snipers.

   12. CWChris Williamson46:16

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RYRoderic Yapp46:16

       They were switched onto that kind of thing, so they knew our rules and engagements and knew what we could do.

   14. CWChris Williamson46:20

       That's sophisticated as well.

   15. RYRoderic Yapp46:22

       Yeah. I mean, a lot, like, you know, primitive, yes, but capable, definitely.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:29

       What's their, um, what's their MO then? Talk me through how, how they go about trying to take down a ship.

   17. RYRoderic Yapp46:35

       What they'll do is, um, you'll have maybe two, probably two small skiffs. Now, a skiff is 20 to 30 feet long, speedboat with a pretty heavy motor on the back of it, as in something with probably 50-plus horsepower, something that can get up to sort of 30 knots relatively quickly. Um, that's one of the ways in which you can identify them, because of course why would a fisherman require an expensive high-end engine? Um, they don't. So, um, the way they'll do it is that they will, they will shadow the vessel, one on the port side, one on the starboard side, um, and what they're looking to do is, is trying to get the vessel, um, to turn one way or the other. Because if the vessel's going into the prevailing weather, if it turns one way, it kind of creates a, um, it creates almost a calm area to one side. And what they'll do is they'll come up alongside. If there are no, if there's no barbed wire, I mean, it's literally a question of putting a ladder up, uh, and climbing onboard. Um, so what they'll-

   18. CWChris Williamson47:40

       Like the Battle of Hastings or like some Lord of the Rings thing, like just throwing it and throwing it.

   19. RYRoderic Yapp47:44

       Yeah, no, lots similar to that.

   20. CWChris Williamson47:45

       Yeah.

   21. RYRoderic Yapp47:45

       Yeah, exactly that. Like it's a, it's a ladder straight over the side and then straight up. Um, so what they're looking for is, is a vessel with a low freeboard, so a, uh, a deck that's very close to the water so that that, that is easy to do. Um, and they're looking for something without sort of any kind of countermeasures. If there are things like barbed wire running around the outside of the ship, I've not seen it but I have heard what they'll do is they'll take a grappling hook, chuck it onto the barbed wire, uh, attach the grappling hook to a bucket, put the bucket in the water, and then the barbed wire gets pulled back as the ship tries to drag the bucket. Now again, like that's incredibly simple.

   22. CWChris Williamson48:26

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RYRoderic Yapp48:27

       Very, very innovative.

   24. CWChris Williamson48:28

       Mm-hmm.

   25. RYRoderic Yapp48:28

       Um, but all that does is create enough of a gap for them to get up underneath.

   26. CWChris Williamson48:33

       Mm.

   27. RYRoderic Yapp48:33

       And these guys are obviously pretty thin and they're only carrying a rifle. Um, once they're onboard, uh, they're going for...... they're going for the bridge. The bridge is the control center of the ship, they're gonna try and get in there, um, and they are going to, um, ultimately use violence and aggression to sort of take the thing over. They'll then take it into Somali territorial waters, they stick it in an anchorage, they contact the ship owner and they start ransoming, and that's basically how it works. Um, the only real way or the way in which you combat it, is really with guys on, on board with guns. They won't... Again, this is a business model, they're not fanatics, so they will, they won't, uh, they won't go after ships that have people on board with weapons who are protecting them-

   28. CWChris Williamson49:22

       Mm-hmm.

   29. RYRoderic Yapp49:23

       ... um, and particularly sort of high free board. There's a whole kind of risk criteria, um, that, that, you know, that you can sort of look at. Um, I mean, once the ship's alongside, you know, those crew are in pretty, pretty dire straits, 'cause now they're looking at... We're not talking weeks here, we're normally talking months of negotiations to get the price down. Um, and then the sort of, the, the payment of the ransom, and that's generally what's done, um, I think is largely a money drop in cash, um, and that's it. They got off, take their money with them, go back to shore, ship goes on its way.

   30. CWChris Williamson49:58

       Wow. So, what... Tell us about the particular incident that you had where you recaptured a, a vessel.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   So if you could…

   1. RYRoderic Yapp1:00:00

      um, in taking the skills that I learned in the military and sort of coaching leaders and helping them to sort of improve the performance of their people, 'cause fundamentally that's what I enjoyed most about being in the Marines, uh, helping others to get better. I got a real sort of kick out of that.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

      So if you could take some of the values that were common in the Armed Forces and import them into the business world or some of the elements, what would be some of the things that you would take across? Would you have ironed shirts and shiny shoes?

   3. RYRoderic Yapp1:00:29

      (laughs) Um, I would take the standards. I wouldn't necessarily have the...

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:35

      The dress code.

   5. RYRoderic Yapp1:00:36

      Yeah. But the sta- standards are a really interesting one because I think, you know, what you, what you're willing to accept, um, in terms of standards of performance, standards of behavior-... uh, is really important 'cause that sort of sets the tone for your organization. Um, I've already talked about th- the accountability. I'd, uh, a- absolutely take that. That would be invaluable in any organization because you'd be able to just get so much more done. Um, I think the key thing that I would take is the sort of leadership view that you are there to improve the performance of your people. I think so often in organizations people get promoted to a leadership position 'cause they're good at doing stuff, and what that does is it reinforces the mindset of the doer. And actually, what I try and work with people to change is that look, you're, it's not about you doing things now, it's about that group over there. It's about spending time improving the performance of the team. You have been promoted because you're good at playing the instrument, but now you've got to conduct the orchestra, so stop playing the instrument. It's a totally different way of thinking. Um, and I think organizations generally don't do a very good job of it. They sort of promote people and then kind of expect them to sort of get on with it. Um, and that's the sort of problem or that's the issue that I hope to address in some small way, really because if I work with someone relatively early in their career and I make them like 5% better at leading people, that has an impact not just on their current team, but all the people that they work with for the rest of their life. And that is in some small way gonna contribute towards making the world a better place, and that's why I do it.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

      I, I think you're right. I recently spoke to Benjamin Dennehy, who is the UK's most hated sales trainer-

   7. RYRoderic Yapp1:02:26

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

      ... and he was talking about, um, when he goes into sales companies, and a lot of the time they will have a good salesman. Really, they know a top performer and they think, "Right, it's time to move this person up." They give them a promotion, they make him a team leader, and they lose a good salesman and gain a shit manager.

   9. RYRoderic Yapp1:02:43

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:43

       Um, and, yeah, it's that going from doer to enabler.

   11. RYRoderic Yapp1:02:48

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:02:49

       Yeah.

   13. RYRoderic Yapp1:02:49

       And, and I think that's 100... I see that in sales classic, absolutely classic. And the organization... Often people, yeah, sometimes people have said to me, "Do you know what? I was much happier when I was just doing the selling."

   14. CWChris Williamson1:03:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RYRoderic Yapp1:03:02

       And I'm like, "That's, that's okay." You need to... I think not everyone... Management isn't right for everyone. Leadership isn't necessarily right for everyone. I think y- you kind of have to ask the individual, "Look, do, do you want to just... Do you want a pay rise or do you want a team?"

   16. CWChris Williamson1:03:17

       Mm. Yeah.

   17. RYRoderic Yapp1:03:18

       Um, it's okay to say no.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:03:19

       Yeah. Because you can negotiate, you can negotiate yourself higher and just say, "Look, I just think I want more money." Like, I-

   19. RYRoderic Yapp1:03:23

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:03:23

       ... I'm, I'm the best seller on the floor, the best seller on the team, the best whatever, like, yeah. And there is, there's a... Because we are our jobs now so much-

   21. RYRoderic Yapp1:03:35

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:03:35

       ... there is this desire for natural progression, this sense that if you're not moving up within the organization... Um, but unfortunately, I think a lot of the skills that make someone a good member of staff don't necessarily translate up to being a good manager. But one of the difficulties that I see, and a lot of the listeners might be able to see this within their own organizations as well, is that respect tends to be emergent, not dictated within an organization. So if you just import some manager who's never worked in fucking uranium before, and he's got some classical history degree and was just shooting Pirates a couple of years ago-

   23. RYRoderic Yapp1:04:17

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04:17

       ... like why should I listen to this schmoe, like talking about-

   25. RYRoderic Yapp1:04:20

       Mm. Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

       He's not, you know, earned his keep. He's not done this, that, and the other. And you, the, the problems that a good leader and a good manager within an organization has to get past, like these sort of invisible hurdles or steps that you need to climb, it's like you need to be able to get the respect of people sometimes without having earned it by coming up through the system. Then you need to actually have good leadership skills.

   27. RYRoderic Yapp1:04:48

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:04:48

       Then you need to be able to get them to listen to you, then direction, accountability, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like it's challenging, right? It doesn't, it doesn't surprise me that we have dysfunction within organizations.

   29. RYRoderic Yapp1:04:59

       Yeah. And I, I think it's... (sighs) it's a, it's a real shame, it's a real waste of potential, potential for those individuals in those jobs, potential for those people in those leadership positions. You know, most people, uh, and I, I haven't got the sort of statistics to hand, but, you know, that it's well known that most people don't like what they do for a living.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:05:18

       Mm-hmm.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:17:00

   Yep. …

   1. RYRoderic Yapp1:15:00

      Yep.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:15:00

      ... pays disproportionate dividends because they categorize anything that has to do with work, they immediately lump it under like one type of communication. It's like, "Oh, I might as well-"

   3. RYRoderic Yapp1:15:10

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:15:11

      "Even if it was a WhatsApp message, it might as well be fucking email." Like, but as soon as you shift it out of that and you think, "Well, this person actually cares about me," that's where, and that's that analogy between sort of that and vulnerability. It's like friendship actually gets built around something which has got fuck all to do with friendship.

   5. RYRoderic Yapp1:15:26

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:15:26

      And a lot of the good relationships that I've had, best relationships I've had with my staff that have worked for me over the years, had absolutely nothing to do with what we've achieved at work.

   7. RYRoderic Yapp1:15:34

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:15:34

      The achievements at work have come of a byproduct of the things that we've done outside of it.

   9. RYRoderic Yapp1:15:39

      It is a, it is a difficult line to get that right. So the way I've kind of thought about it is, you very early, when leading a group, people have to work out the difference between being friendly and friends.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:15:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. RYRoderic Yapp1:15:53

       Because if they become your friend and your best mate, where you're going out together and you're, you know, chatting up girls and going out on the piste together, doing whatever young people do these days. (laughs) Um, the next day like they don't turn up to work, you need to have a performance management conversation with that individual. You need to be able to say, "Look, that's unacceptable." And I think that knowing the boundary, I think you only know the boundary once you've kind of got it wrong or once you've overstepped it with someone-

   12. CWChris Williamson1:16:21

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RYRoderic Yapp1:16:21

       ... and you've become friends with someone and you're like, "Yeah. Do you know what? That was a really difficult person to have performance management conversations with, and maybe they exploited our friendship a little bit to kind of-"

   14. CWChris Williamson1:16:32

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RYRoderic Yapp1:16:32

       "... get away with some poor performance." That's a, that's a tough one. Um-

   16. CWChris Williamson1:16:36

       When you pull that pin as well, when you do the, "Mate, we need to have a chat." When you do that, it, you watch the walls of the friendship fall down as well because sometimes people might have thought, "I thought I was getting special dispensation here. I thought that we were mates." And you're like, "Uh, it doesn't stop the fact that we're not mates. It's not to do with the fact that I'm not friendly." But you're, you are right. The, the waters get very-

Episode duration: 1:20:23