EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 23,260 words- 0:00 – 0:29
Intro
- EJEddie Jones
The really important thing there is, as a leader or as a head coach, you need to know yourself. When we're a young coach coming through, we think we know everything and we think we can do everything. And the longer you coach, the more you realize, know your strengths, coach to your strengths, and then bring other people in that complement, supplement, and add to the team environment.
- CWChris Williamson
Eddie Jones, welcome to the show.
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, nice to be here, mate.
- CWChris Williamson
Really glad to have
- 0:29 – 4:52
Why Leadership is a Difficult Skill to Learn
- CWChris Williamson
you here. So, why write a book on leadership at all? Do you want the world to have better leaders in it or are you trying to synthesize what you learned? What was the compulsion to do it?
- EJEddie Jones
Well, uh, on the back of the last book, McMillan approached me during the lockdown to do a book on leadership. And I'd always thought, um, there was a couple of books when I was growing up as a coach, uh, learning my trade, that I really appreciated the help I got from. One was c- from Pat Riley, the LA Lakers, uh, Winner Within, and the other one was Bill Walsh from the San Francisco 49ers, which I think's called Winning Edge. And I thought, well maybe if I can put down some of the thoughts that I've had in, in my career, might help some young aspiring coach coming through to, to help them in, in their difficult way of learning how to be a coach.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is such a difficulty? Why is leadership such a, a fine skill to attune?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, I think, you know, coaching, as, as I do for a living, um, it appears easy but it's such a complex, convoluted, um, ever-demanding profession where you're dealing with, you know, young athletes who increasingly want to be more individual, uh, which is the way the world is, and you're trying to put them together into one team and, and do the same thing in a, in a period of time, and ex-, and e- and extract from them effort that they don't normally want to give.
- CWChris Williamson
Does that suggest that it's becoming a bit more difficult to be a leader or be a coach now? It sounds like people are becoming more individualistic, which is making coordination more challenging.
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, look, I don't think it's become more difficult. I, I just think it's, there's more parts to it now. Um, you have to take into consideration a lot more things than previously you had to. Just for instance, you know, within coaching a team, you have to take a lot of consideration into the, the learning environment where, which you create for the players, you know, whereas previously, you know, if you look back 20 or 30 years ago, you could stand at the front of the room and say, "This is what we're going to do," and everyone would say, "Well, how much, how much, how hard do you want us to do it, Coach?" And now you have to explain why you have to do it, you have to make sure you have the right number of messages, you have to have the messages in the right way, you have to have the right, uh, right sort of visual presentation for the players. So all of that's become, become more challenging, um, to, to extract the maximum effort from the players.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you balance that need for team members to listen to your instructions but them to also come up with their own solutions? I think you've got a story in the book about when you presented one of the players with sort of a, "Here's a problem, you need to fix it," but also the players still need to listen to your words. How do you find that balance?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, well, increasingly, Chris, it's, it's more about the players finding their own solutions. I think coaches are more facilitators now, and what, what we need to be really good at though is, is setting the standards of performance and making those, uh, performance standards very clear for everyone, but then guiding the player to where they need to go to achieve those standards rather than commanding the players to do it.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm, that's interesting. What, or when do you think that you're at your best? Are you at your absolute best now as a leader?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, I think you never get there, mate. I think you're always chasing. It's like that elusive dream. It's that, that pie-in-the-sky type thing where you're always trying to become a better, a b- a better coach and a better leader. You know, we had, uh, Roy Hodgson come and visit us, uh, during the last Six Nations, and, you know, Roy's 72, he's coached I think four different countries, uh, most of the top football clubs in the world, and, you know, his opening statement was, "Oh, boys, I'm still trying to work out how to be a good coach." And I think that's so true, that you're always chasing to be a little bit better because, you know, there, there is no finite state in sport and there is no finite state in any high-performance organization. You know, there's always what's coming next, who's, who's chasing you, who's trying to do a little bit better than you.
- 4:52 – 16:49
What are the Values of a Good Leader?
- EJEddie Jones
- CWChris Williamson
What are the values of a good leader to you? You break that down into a, sort of a big five. How do you go through courage, hard work, discipline, iron will, and curiosity?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, I think all of those things are important and they're all important at various times. I think, you know, as I, as I spoke about in the book, there's a cycle of performance that you need to go through where you need to build up the team, and particularly at the start when you take over a team, I think you need a lot of courage to come up with a vision that's probably, um, higher than the players have ever wanted to achieve, and then you've got to sell that vision to the players, um, you've got to make sure that they're prepared to work hard to, to achieve that vision. And that message has got to be fresh all the time because, you know, the more you can, you can repeat the message, the more chance you've got people believing it. You know, that's the one thing that's, that's very consistent. We were lucky enough, uh, recently to get Doug Lemoff in, um, who's a, a school teacher in the USA, um, and he started a, a, a number of schools called Uncommon Schools, and he's basically set up schools in the most underprivileged areas in, in the cities of America.... and created this fantastic learning environment where kids are doing, uh, significantly better than the norms for their areas. So, we got him into, to create, uh, to get the tea- to get our coaches to learn more about being better teachers rather than just being coaches, because that's what it is now. It's, it's teaching the players. You know, guiding them. Sometimes telling them and most of the time, trying to create the environment for them to learn by themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there an insight that was surprising to you when learning what he does? Or was there something that you realized that you were doing incorrectly?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, uh, it's, it's not as, as severe as that. But what it is, it's the, it's the nuances of getting a message through. Like, he did this presentation on rugby, and he doesn't know, he doesn't know anything about rugby. But he did this presentation and, and our coaching sat there, sat, our coaching team sat there in awe about his ability to, to capture the information succinctly, put it into a way that, that most people can remember it. Um, so it's that understanding of how the brain operates, understanding then how you s- how you create that, that right message for the players so they're able to remember what you're doing. And, and just some of the things, you know. Like, if you want the team to do a tactical... If you want a team to follow a tactical area of the game, they need to practice at least four times during the week. The brain, the brain won't take that in unless you do it four times. And if it's more of a message, if you haven't repeated that message at least seven times during the week, the chances, again, of the players being able to remember that messages is, is, uh, not great.
- CWChris Williamson
So, the value...
- EJEddie Jones
So that is, just those little things are really important.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. The value of repetition from someone who doesn't have a clue about rugby, but was able to come over and give people who've spent their entire lives doing rugby some new news.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. And it's a way of repetition without having repetition. You know, that's the important thing. Because if we keep repeating the same message and you keep saying it the same way, people get bored of it, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- EJEddie Jones
And, and particularly in today's society where, you know, if you haven't got a new, something new on your podcast, people don't come back to it, do they? You know, 'cause there's always something new they can go to. You look at, you know, soft drinks or drinks in the, in the shops now. Like, 30 years ago, you had Fanta, Coke, lemonade, and water probably. And now you've got, you know, each week there's a new flavor, a new sparkling, you know, lemon, yuzu, whatever it is, juice coming out 'cause people want new things. And it's the same when you're giving messages to players now. If you keep saying the same thing, uh, they'll, they'll, they won't listen to you. So you've got to present the same message in a number of different ways. So it's, it's that idea of having repetition without repetition. Uh, same as coaching on the field, you know? The importance of fundamentals in any of the games we play, whether it be football, whether it be American football, whether it be rugby union. The fundamentals are the, are the bit that gives you the beauty of the game. Um, but young players don't want to do the endless drills of passing the ball without thinking. So you've got to be able to create those drills that are repetition, but at the same time, the players think they're, they're doing something new all the time.
- CWChris Williamson
So there's a, an element of novelty that delivers the same message that you've wanted to get across to them? Yeah.
- EJEddie Jones
100%, mate. Summed it up beautifully.
- CWChris Williamson
And you... Am I right in saying that you said for physical activities, you're looking at four times a week? And for... What does messages mean? Is that more kind of like philosophies and theories? Seven times within a week?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. O- o- or the message about, about how we're gonna play, just that, that key tactical message that you want to stick in their head. If you're not repeating that seven times during the week, the chances of the players remembering that is, uh, is not great.
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. I wonder whether... I wonder whether the immersive element that you get when players turn professional or when they go to an international stage, I'm wondering how much more of a benefit those players are seeing because they're living and breathing it. Think about the step change between a club level player who maybe is only with his team, what, once or twice during the week, and then again on game day. And then as this perhaps young player works up and up, not only does he get better, but his ability to get better increases so much more because he's starting to hit this critical mass of messaging opportunities with the coaching staff that he works with.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Oh, no. I also think it's the ability to learn and, and, yeah, you see the players who go from one level to the, to the next. Um, their ability to learn quickly is, is one of the most distinguishing factors. Like, I know in English cricket, they had a theory that if a player went from county to test cricket and within the first three innings of test cricket, he wasn't able to get 50, the chances of him adapting and being a really good player is, is quite, quite low. Um, and I think that's so true in most sports. You see when a young player goes up to the next level, the... if they adapt really quickly and th- and that's their ability to learn. If they're able to do that, their chances of being a successful player is far higher than the, the player who's slow to adapt.
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. So it's like a, uh, like a stress test at very, very high levels of pressure. This person's put into a new environment. New t- new stress is put upon them. How do they adapt and grow and learn? And that adaptability is, um, uh, a scalable insight that works out how effective they're going to be over time.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and the other part of that is that they've got to have a open mindset. You know, they've got to be open to learning, and they've got to have an element of curiosity, and they've also got to be humble, mate. Because, you know, the hard thing for, for players particularly is to understand sometimes they think they've made it, they've got to the next level, so, "Why do I have to improve now?" And if you're humble, you always want to improve. And you see with the really great players, you know, you look at Federer, you know, he's, he's, what, he's 40-odd now and he's still got a tennis coach because he wants to improve. And every time he comes back for a new season, he's got a new stroke or variation of his stroke. Imagine if, like, every team sport player had that approach to their game, that every off-season they develop a new part of their game by themselves and come back with a new string to their bow. And the, and the really good players do that and the not-so-good players think they've made it and they, and they don't think they gotta keep improving.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a tension between the hard work and the iron will and the discipline and the curiosity, that those first three are to do with kind of drilling and iterating on what you already do, and the curiosity is on growing? So you kind of have this exploit and then this explore element, that there's two things going on. Is there a, is there a tension that you find between those?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Oh, it's a, it's a constant battle, mate. The way you've said it is, is right. And there's this constant battle in terms of coaching, whether you're supporting or challenging the player. So you've always got this, and with your environment, you've got the constant battle or tension between being comfortable, 'cause you need them to be comfortable sometimes. You know, if you keep pushing all the time, um, they get too uncomfortable, but then when they, they start sitting comfortably on their chair, then you've gotta make sure you, you make them a bit more uncomfortable. So, you know, in terms of high-performance environments, that's one of the things you're constantly appraising, that support/challenge, that, that comfortable/uncomfortable, it's that, that, uh, sitting and moving. You're always appraising where you need to be and trying to find the right way to keep moving forward.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you avoid burnout, both for yourself and for the players? I know that you're someone who in the past has, uh, how would you say, pushed the limits of this, um, to its, t- t- up towards its, uh, absolute peak.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Well, well, I think the first thing is you gotta keep loving it. You know, if you lo- if you really love something, it means a lot to you, you don't get burnt out, because the passion's there, the desire's there, the enthusiasm there, and it's, you know, I never feel like I've, I'm doing a job. I always feel like I'm doing something I love doing, um, and, and that's why I'm still able to c- coach at, at 61, uh, because it's not a job to me. It's, it's something I love doing, um. And I think the mistake I made when I was a younger coach was that I expected everyone else, players and, and assistant coaches, to have that same desire to, to wanna be like that all the time. But as I've got older and got more experience, I've, I've understood that, you know, everyone's got their own way of doing it, and sometimes it mightn't manifest itself in this strong desire, but they've still got the desire there. So it's being more, having more empathy about the way other people do their job.
- CWChris Williamson
It wouldn't work for everyone to have your approach either, right? Let's say that you are the, uh, bazooka or you're the hammer that sees everything as a nail. You don't need that. Sometimes you need other people that are more creative, that are more relaxed. I know that you've got a lot of women that are contributing as parts of your coaching staff now that also add a total different perspective into this too.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Well, I, I think, you know, the, the recent period of time has shown how impor- important diversity is in life, you know, not that anyone thought it wasn't, but I think that's really reinforced. And I think in the sporting environment, it's become even more important to understand how important diversity is, and, and, and that, and that respect's almost more important than harmony in a, a team organization. I think having the respect of diversity, respect of different opinions, respect of people's backgrounds, respect of gender, all of that, all of that is just so important to an environment now.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the bottom line is it's not diversity for diversity's sake either. The reason that it works is that you get an effective outcome, that you have a team that performs better, that's more effective.
- EJEddie Jones
Oh, 100%, because everyone thinks the same way, everyone behaves the same way, you know, y- you don't get any new thoughts, you don't get any creative conflict. You need to have that diversity to keep the, keep the ball
- 16:49 – 27:42
How Eddie Changed England’s Direction
- EJEddie Jones
moving.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Talk to me about when you arrived at England in 2015 then. How do you begin changing the direction of a team when you're a brand-new leader? You're this fresh-behind-the-face sort of guy that no one has an existing relationship with, but many people may have preconceived ideas about. Where do you go?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, th- I probably learnt, learnt the most, uh... Will I just tell a little story about how I approached it, uh, being a casual teacher or being a supply teacher, as they call it in England? Uh, I did that for the first couple of years when I became a teacher because there wasn't any full-time jobs. So I'd go to a school and I, I used to go to my old school and, and the classes you got were always the tough classes because teachers don't take days off when they got the top students. They take the days off when they, they've got the, the, the ratbags. So I'd, I'd have the bottom, bottom classes of year nine boys, you know, when hormones are pumping through their bodies, they, they know everything, they don't wanna be told anything by a teacher. And, uh, I quickly learn out, you know, when you have those guys maybe four or five times a, a day, um, you gotta quickly work out, right, who's, who's going to, who's gonna be difficult for you? And you have to find some way to, some way to establish a relationship. Who's gonna help you?... and again, you have to find a relationship with. An- and then you have to make the, the content of your lesson interesting, that, that makes them want to be part of the lesson. So, when you go to a new team, it's no different, you know, you gotta try to find the players who you think you need but maybe are going to be difficult and find a way to establish a relationship quickly with them. Uh, work out the players who are going to be with you from the start because they're driven. Uh, make sure they understand your philosophy and, and where you want to go. And then create a training program that's interesting, that makes the players want to be there. Um, and so, you do that process, you know, and when you're with the England side, you've got five days to do that before you play a game. So, it's, you know, you've got to get on your horse and you've got to do it quickly.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about how you, um, bridge the gap between the difficult ones and how you encourage and utilize the motivation of the driven ones. Have you got any strategies around how you approach that?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Well, you've gotta, you've gotta, for the difficult ones, they're, difficult ones are difficult usually for a reason. They're either, they're either really high-performing players, which most of them are, or they're players you've got to get rid of. So you've quickly gotta make a, you, you know if they're high-performing players, they're difficult for a reason, so you've got to try to find out what they really value, um, what drives them. Like, you know, I think I, I've spoken before about James Haskell, who'd always been this muscular player, but had never really performed for England. But I'd met him a few times socially before that in Japan, and I knew that, you know, he wanted to be loved. So, you know, some of the most overtly ostentatious, out-there-type players are the players who are the most ins- insecure. So I immediately, um, had a conversation with him and said, "Mate, you're gonna be so important for this team. You know, you're likely to be our starting seven for, for the Six Nations. So, you do these one or two things for me, you're gonna be there." And that immediately made him feel good, so he wanted to be part of the team. Uh, then for the other guys, it's, it's giving them roles they think are, is going to improve their rugby. So, you're looking to each player quickly to establish a personal relationship, trying to understand what, what's important value for them in terms of their sport and in terms of their endeavor, and then, and then create that link with them.
- CWChris Williamson
So, with the difficult ones, you're looking to either, um, bridge that gap or get rid? And with the guys who are driven, you're trying to give them responsibility that allows them to take ownership and move forward?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. A- and also show them how much you care about them. Like, the big thing about, about any team is that the players want to know two things from the coach. Firstly, that they can improve them, and secondly, that they care about them. So, you've gotta, you've gotta have the knowledge of rugby, particularly for those driven guys. They, they wanna know that you've got the knowledge to take the team going forward because they want to be part of the successful team. So, you've gotta quickly assess in the team, and I think you see this in football all the time, where coaches are able to come in, or managers are able to come in a short period of time and turn the team around. They're able to work out quickly how they can improve the team, and therefore how they can improve the individual players' chances of being successful. Um, so you've gotta work out what that is very, very quickly. And, and for England, it was quite easy because they've always been a strong defensive and set piece team, so I just focused on what they were good at previously, and then gave them a picture of where we could go potentially.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting as a non-professional athlete looking at these pros, 'cause from our perspective, these guys just look like titan, athletic titans, right? Just these immovable objects that go on the pitch and completely work to what the tactics say that they're supposed to do. But you're right. The only reason that a manager is, or a coach is able to step into a team, whether it be football or rugby, and make a quick change, they're not changing the skills of the players. The players haven't acquired some new move or something within the space of one day or one week that this coach has been there. It's about the communication. It's about how they're framing that player's role. It's about how they're talking to them. It's about making them feel comfortable, confident, secure within their position within the team, and giving them responsibility to drive them forward. I'd never thought of it like that before, but it makes so much sense. That's the only way you could turn something around that quickly.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, no, 100%. Well, you look at, uh, uh, yeah. It's one of the most interesting things for me, is, is watching how other coaches operate, and having seen, uh, Rangnick come into Manchester United. Yeah, every time he talks, he's very clear about what he wants. Like, this is how the team's gonna play. Uh, we mightn't play like that now, but this is where we're going. Um, he wants players with a strong mentality. Uh, doesn't matter how talented they are if they've got a strong mentality. And you can see, you know, every time he talks to a media conference, he's talking to his players. So he's reinforcing, you know, we've said about reinforcing the messages. He's constantly reinforcing the messages he's, he'd been telling within the, in the team room. He's saying that to the media. So they're hearing that, right? So we know what this bloke wants. Uh, for us to be successful, if we're gonna do this, we've got to do these things. And at the same time, I'm sure he gives them enough freedom to, to, uh, to impose their own personality on the team. I reckon that's another important point, that, you know, a team generally wants, wants to be like the personality of the coach. Um, but at the same time, the coach's skill is being able to, to not, not, um, delete the player's personality from, from that. So you want the players to be themselves, but you want them to be part of a group that plays like the coach wants them to play, so they get on the same page. But at the same time, for the players to be able to have, be their own personality.
- CWChris Williamson
You see this in businesses as well, right? The owner or the director or the CEO or whatever, the culture is just a trickle-down little microcosm of whatever it is that they do. In any case, you see elements of their personality borne out in the company culture. It is just like a, a little projection of how that person operates.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, 100%. And then the individuals are e- able to add to that, so they're continuing adding. Like we had a sports psych come in between 2018 and 2020 for the England side, and, and one of, one of her great quotes was that, "Remember, every conversation you have with a player or with a staff member, you're either adding to the business or you're taking away from the business. You're never... No conversation is neutral." And it's so, so right, that every conversation you have, whether it be passing a guy in the hallway, you can either add to the team business that wh- that day or take away from the team business. And your ability to, to keep adding to the business is the key thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about James Haskell, you said that he was an important part of, uh, like, lightening the dressing room up, being kind of the, the life of the party, so to speak. Are there some other support systems that a leader needs that might not be so obvious at first? Y- you wouldn't think that in a high-performing sports team that having a life of the party or someone that lightens the load would be in there, but it seems like it was quite an important role.
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, mate, it's really important. And again, it's that diversity of character that you need. So you not only need that in the players, but you also need a, a staff member that's able to do that. So we had a guy called Scott Wise, my an- he coached with me in Japan, and I brought him over to England for the last two years. Like he was the sort of bloke, like honestly, he's 50 now and he's still got the same a- same pair of board shorts he had when he was, when he was 21, you know. And they tell this story about New South Wales though, driving to training and they see this guy in the board shorts on a skateboard, you know, with his cap backwards pushing along on his skateboard, going to training, and this is th- you know, one of the most important assistant coaches. So having a guy like that who's good at his, good at his coaching but also can add a bit of frivolity, bit of humor. Like humor's such an important thing in a sports environment, um, or any competitive environment, that you have that balance between seriousness of the job and that humor to, to get people to feel good about themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
It's funny to think that a lot of, a lot of bad leaders that I've spent time with, they want other members of the team to be exactly like them, but as you've said, we're not gonna get that diversity through that way. And especially, whatever it is that you have, having more of that isn't what you need. It's more of the things that you don't have that are then going to spread out that creativity.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, yeah. No, that's right, Chris. And I think the, the really important thing there is, as a leader or as a head coach, you need to know yourself, you know, because when we're, when we're a young coach coming through, you know, w- we think we know everything and, and we think we can do everything. And the longer you coach, the more you realize, know your strengths, coach with, coach to your strengths and then bring other people in that complement, supplement, and add, add to the team environment.
- 27:42 – 34:23
How Eddie Deals with the Media
- EJEddie Jones
- CWChris Williamson
I'm fascinated by the idea that the coach can use opportunities with the press as a chance to communicate to the players. I think that that... I mean, you've had some pretty advanced media strategies over the last few years, the way that you went out and attacked the All Blacks in advance of your game with them, and then there was the, sort of the V formation that you guys formed-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... around the haka. Can you explain sort of the plan behind that, that whole week?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Well, New Zealand, New Zealand are the darlings of world rugby, you know, everyone loves them, um, and they should because they're the most successful team in the world. So they've got, and they've got this mystique about them with the black jersey, doing the haka, and having lived in Japan, I know how much the Japanese love them. Um, so with, uh, uh, a guy that's worked with me for 20 years now, David Prembrau, who's one of the br- brightest people I know, uh, he always at the start of the week will send me some lines about where we think we should go. So firstly, we wanted to put the New Zealand media on call, that, uh, we wanted them to stir, stir them up a bit, um, so they'd ask Hans- Steve Hansen, who was their head coach, some questions. So we came up with that line of they're just fans with keyboards to stir that up a bit. And then we wanted to, wanted to make sure that New Zealand understood we were coming after them, so we used, e- we used some language at the start of the week about how we were gonna chase them down the street and all these, these sort of things, and the busiest person in the New Zealand camp would be their sports psychologist who was, you know, well-renowned and w- one of the most successful. And then we had this idea, right, that's, that's all well and good but once we get to the ground and they start the haka, the whole crowd's gets enchants by the, um, and then they become, the crowd supports them. Um, so what we wanted to try to do was get the crowd to think about something else, so came up with this idea that, that we'd encircle the, the haka, so we'd make a circle around it, but that was the coach's idea so I gave it to Eoin Farrell, the captain, and I said, "Mate, this isn't my idea. Uh, or our idea. But then you do, you talk to the team and you do what you think's right." So they came up with the idea that they'd make a, a V, um, and s- stay within the...... distance I was supposed to stay, which I think you're not allowed over half of way line. But unfortunately, uh, the, we've got a bloke called Joe Marler who doesn't tend to listen to, to most people. And he kept going, so we ended up with this, you know, this quite confrontational V. And, and you could hear the buzz in the crowd, you know. All of a sudden, well, this is not the All... We're not here to just watch the All Blacks. This is a, this is a proper game and it's on. Um, so we, we got that right approach but, yeah, you do that in other games and it doesn't work and you look like an idiot, mate. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, the video, if anyone wants to go and watch it on YouTube, you can see the referee or the linesman sort of trying to pull Joe Marler back and saying, "No, no, you can't."
- EJEddie Jones
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"You've, you're on their half of the pitch, you need to be in your half. The game hasn't even begun yet."
- EJEddie Jones
But again, you know, that's, that's a good example of diversity 'cause Joe Marler, like, he's completely his own ma- own man, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Is he one of the most unique players that you've coached?
- EJEddie Jones
100%, mate. They're one of the best players I've coached too. Like great team man, really respected within the team, but yeah, he's got his own way he wants to be portrayed and, and we give him the freedom to do that. And as a result he, he keeps wanting to play for England, like he's retired two or three times.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- EJEddie Jones
You know, he's got five kids under 10 at home, so he's got plenty to do at home. Um, but he's a, he's a great fella. Great fella.
- CWChris Williamson
He's so entertaining to watch. You know, he's, it doesn't make-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It doesn't surprise me that he's a fan favorite. And then when you find out that he's, like, a player favorite too? I guess Haskill's probably something similar, right? Like, just that pure character. It's, um ...
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It sets the, it, it, and it gets ... You have to forget, or, or people sometimes forget when we talk about high performance that although sport is about winning and about performing effectively, it is an entertainment. I know that you've got some problems at the moment to do with the ball in, ball out of play, um, time, which-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... although partly that's to do with how the game's played and the dynamic, it's also to do with how enjoyable it is to watch. So if you've got a character on the pitch with his crazy hair and his, like, mad after match interviews, and there's things that the referee's mic picks up as he's, like Joe Marler's giving the referee a slap on the arse or whatever it might be. Like that's, that kind of makes for a spectacle that people want to watch.
- EJEddie Jones
And, and it goes back again, you, you know, you don't want to be annulling the, the player's personality. You want them to have their personality and, and the crowds want to see that. They want to see players with personality. And, you know, as professional sports got tighter and tighter, uh, particularly I think it's been harder for players to, to be their own person because it's, you know, the academies want players who behave themselves. They don't want players who are, are difficult, who, you know, want to do their own thing. So, those players have to work really hard now to come through.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there almost a sense of deprogramming that when they get to the top level? That you go from being a, a wild young kid, you need to show to the academy usually, you know, if you've got some academy coach, my house mate's the ex-physio of the junior academy at Falcons and now the junior first team, and I think that, you know, they, they want kids that show that they can listen to discipline. They want kids that can do the thing. But then you get to the top flight and actually you're now trying to bring, you're almost trying to deprogram that. You're trying to bring some of that individuality back out again.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. I, I think it's a, it's a constant battle, um, that we've got that, that we want players particularly, I think, in the media, to be their, their own selves. We, yeah, obviously there's a team line we want them to follow, but we want them to be able to tell stories, we want them to be able to entertain the, the people who, who pay, you know, ultimately the crowds pay for, for the players to play the game. And, and they need to be able to entertain. Um, yeah, I think that's just such an important part of sport going forward. And you see the American teams are probably best at doing it, aren't they? You know, I remember seeing that Cam Newton for, um, I think he played for Carolina Panthers, you know, real character. The way he used to dress coming to press conferences, and people remembered that.
- 34:23 – 38:37
Eddie’s Thoughts on The Last Dance
- EJEddie Jones
- CWChris Williamson
Did you watch, uh, The Last Dance, Save the Last Dance, the Michael Jordan-
- EJEddie Jones
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... documentary on Netflix?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What were your thoughts about that?
- EJEddie Jones
Oh, well, again, I reckon that's a great example of a, a, a coach knowing what the team needed. Like when Rodman, having Rodman there with Pippen and Jordan, he had the right balance in the team. When it was, when Jordan was out and it was just Pip, Pippen and, and Rodman, Rodman's force within the team was probably too strong and there wasn't enough ballast in the senior player group to, to, to manage his idiosyncrasies. Because if they were able to manage it, he was a force for the team. But if they weren't able to manage it then he became a negative force for the team. So I thought that the way Jackson was able to manage that, and you, and you didn't hear much from Jackson in the, in the, in the series, but you could see his influence on the team and, and, and the, the way ... The other bit I really liked was that, you know, in NBA it looks like in the lead up to the finals it's all about attack, but as soon as you get to the finals it's all about defense. Which is, is the same in most sports, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean by that?
- EJEddie Jones
You've got to get to... You've got to be a good attacking team to get to the finals but to win the finals you've got to be a good defensive team.
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that that would be the case.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Well, that, the thing that stood out to me how hard they played in defense in the finals. Like, Jordan in the finals, his defense was incredible.
- CWChris Williamson
And you think that you're going to see the same or you do see the same pattern come across into rugby as well?
- EJEddie Jones
Oh, 100%, mate. So clear. Because they're tight games, you know, and they're 50/50 games so the team that generally makes the less errors wins.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah, that's an interesting one. So, what about your habits for leadership? What about your routines and the non-negotiables that you have in your daily existence that make sure that you're performing as well as you can as a leader?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, well, I think, um, you've got to have a routine as a leader. Um, I certainly have developed that over the years. I've always had quite a strong work ethic, uh, so I've always worked long hours, but I've become much more effective in, in working more effective hours. Um, the book that I, I, I read and got a lot out of was a book called Deep Work by Cal Newport, which is about understanding when your most profitable periods of the day are, make sure you do your hardest work there, make sure you cut off all, all the distractions you have, and do your best work then. Then the other periods are more lighter periods of work. So, that's, that's really helped me a lot, that book. And I was, I was lucky enough to have a Zoom with him over ... Any, any aspiring coach or any aspiring leader should read that book.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, he's been on the show about, uh, h- A World Without Email, which is his new book that he is trying to turn people's worlds upside down with. There's one thing, actually, I wanted to suggest that you might really enjoy. It's a book by Steven Kotler called The Art of Impossible. Um, so you think about how someone like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi or, uh, a Cal Newport, they come at flow from quite a psychological perspective.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, Ste- Steven comes at it from a biological perspective. So, he looks at the biological prerequisites that cause a human to be in a flow state. Um, and that book-
- EJEddie Jones
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
... that book's really, really impressive. There's something nice about having someone that's, like, spitting sawdust, uh, around what you need to do in order to prime your body. So, it's a primer on peak performance. Um, but given your daily routine, which I know you tend to work on a morning, right? You get up sort of relatively early-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and then you crack it out. That aligns, interestingly, that aligns really, really closely with what Steven talks about. And he's done some of the most advanced flow research on the planet. He owns the Flow Research Collective, which is this big group, and blah, blah, blah. And, um, yeah, it's funny how people that maybe don't know the neurology of why it's happening, they just arrive at an effective strategy simply by trial and error.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. No, read that book, mate. That's a good tip.
- CWChris Williamson
Good man,
- 38:37 – 44:35
Examining Different Roles Within the England Team
- CWChris Williamson
good man. So, talk to me about some of the new additions to your team. We've spoken about the fact that we've got women on board, and you've touched on, there's, there's a media person. Uh, you've got a guy that used to speak to, uh, psychopaths and stuff, and you've got all-
- EJEddie Jones
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... all manner of different team members. Who are some of the-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, w- what-
- CWChris Williamson
... the interesting new ones?
- EJEddie Jones
We've, uh, we've put on a, we use a forensic psychologist now. Um, and she used to, she used to assess psychopaths in, in one of the jails in, in England and basically to see whether they were going to kill again. Um, and if they were gonna kill, they had to stay in a high security jail, obviously. If they, they felt, if she felt they could move to a more, uh, less secure or ... So, she tells this story about how she'd sit in this, the, the room, the jail room with these psychopaths having to, having to try to analyze them. So, we've got her on, um, to work with the coaches. So it's the first time we've had a psychologist for the coaches. And, and it's all about just-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so she's not just working ... Sorry, she's not just working with the players. You've got her-
- EJEddie Jones
No.
- CWChris Williamson
... working with the coaches to assess their mental state as well.
- EJEddie Jones
She's work-, she's working with the coaches to i- to improve our collaborative, um, improve our collaboration as a team, and also to improve our, uh, language and our communication, just as we spoke about before. Just the, the power of language now. It's always been important, but I think it's even more important now. So, she has, uh, her name's Nasheda, uh, Solhem, and she's written a book called Pin Code. And basically, she's got, you know, the approach of how you should prepare for every conversation, your advance preparation, y- the way you use your body, and, and the way you approach your conversations is just so important. So, she's been, she's been fantastic for us.
- CWChris Williamson
That's int- I'm gonna steal that, and I might ask you for an intro to her once (laughs) we're finished as well, 'cause that sounds-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Come on, mate.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that sounds really interesting. Um, it's still, it's still fascinating me, the level of, um, intricacy that you're seeing with rugby. I don't know how this compares with other sports, but like I say, I've watched my housemate from a front row seat move through, um, the layers of, you know, a, a top level club. And on- one thing that struck me from that is that there are, uh, different groups. And I imagine this must be the same in most elite sports, but specifically within rugby, um, you know, he's part of the physio team, but the physio team needs to coordinate with S&C, but S&C also needs to coordinate with coaches, and everybody has-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... their own, uh, priorities. So, it feels to me like the physio team are kind of erring on the side of, "Well, look, we know how long this injury may take to come back." The coach wants the guy to be on the pitch. The S&C person wants to deliver the player to come back on the pitch. So it makes sense that coordination and communication between you guys and really, really getting that right and not causing rifts and politics within that coaching community, even before you even get to the players. It makes a lot of sense that getting that right is, is pretty crucial.
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, it's absolutely crucial, mate. And it's having that holistic approach to the player that there's, you can't treat the player for just one thing, that everything's connected. You know? So, their, their physical state is, is, uh, connected to their fitness level, which is connected to their ability to play the game. So, we do a lot of case studies on the players and get all the, all the particular people involved, making sure that, that the approach we take to the, the player is the right approach. And again, then it comes back to the language of how you approach that. Um, so the language involved in that's just so important. And, and because rugby's, rugby is a reasonably complex game, um, that's not won by individuals, it's won by a team.... and, and that's why in rugby you don't tend to get huge superstars because it is, it's the ultimate team game. Like, uh, Messi in rugby would be hard to, to, to have because it's, 'cause he can't do that without everyone else doing their job because it takes at least eight players to win the ball before it gets delivered to him. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
There's no Ben S- Ben Stokes on the rugby pitch.
- EJEddie Jones
No. No. There's not, and, and it's difficult, difficult for those players to actually survive in the game because it's such a, a complicated game. And, and our job as a staff is to make it simple. You know, we've got to make this complicated game simple for the players 'cause we know the neu- neurology of the brain, if the players are thinking all about this, they can't perform on the field. So, our job is to make sure we keep that simple, and the communication between all those departments has got to be so, uh, concise and, and so much on the same page. Because you imagine now a player comes into ... a new player comes into a team, you know, we've got 22 staff members. So they've got to now establish 22 relationships with 22 staff members. Yeah, that's a hell of a lot of work to do. So, if each of the, the staff members telling them a slightly different thing, then you can imagine how confusion can come into a young player's head. So our ability to make sure that the messages are clear and concise and simple, and, and, and driving the player to the, to the one goal, um, is just, is just massively important for us.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you try and restrict the number of people that communicate sort of strategies and tactics to the players in order to reduce that, uh, degrees of freedom as well?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. 100%, mate. So we, uh, we've broken the down ... broken the team down a little bit like NFL, uh, that there's four groups of players. Each have a, a head coach, so to speak, for that group, and we want most of the communication to go through that person. You know, particularly when the player's going through a difficult stage, we'll try to channel all that information through the right person.
- 44:35 – 54:40
Principles for Success Under Pressure
- EJEddie Jones
- CWChris Williamson
What about during halftime? Or you could imagine that this would be any, uh, high-pressure, time-sensitive communication opportunity. Have you got some principles that you go into that with, or that you tell the coaches to go into that with? Are they trying to have one thing that they'd speak about? Are there some underlying rules?
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. No, most, most two things. At the most. Absolute most. You know, so those old, you know, Uh, On Any Given Sunday type speeches don't happen anymore, mate. (laughs) Uh, it's one or two points, um, and we know that the, the more stressed the player is, which they usually are at halftime, they got physical stress, they might have tactical stress, uh, that their ability to absorb information is less, so we need to keep that information so concise. So, one or two messages we're trying to get through at the very most.
- CWChris Williamson
Nice. What about when you notice in yourself? Is there something that you detect? If your balance starts to go off, if you find yourself becoming less effective, or just that you're getting ... you're straying away from the principles, is ... are there any, um, warning signs that you find in yourself when that's happening?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, I, I've deliberately put another guy on, a guy called Neil Craig, who's, who's an AFL coach. Um, p- previously, in another life, was a sports scientist. So he's basically ... He's a bit older than me, um, and he sits there next to me all the time in everything we do, and, and keeps giving me feedback about, about what I'm doing. Um, so that if I do straying away, if I'm doing too hard or too soft or not talking enough or talking too much, he's giving me that feedback. So every morning we'll have a coffee at half past seven and go through it. And I heard another story from a, a Australian friend of mine who coached the, the Boomers at the last, uh, Olympics, and they won their first medal ever, and he went and visited the Milwaukee Bucks, and he said, you know, he had a good, good relationship with the head coach, so he'd see that he was there for 10 or 12 days. He said there's this little bloke every day running around with his notepad, you know, and, and he, he didn't know what he did 'cause n- no one spoke to him. He didn't have ... No one introduced him that he had a role. Anyway, a- about the ninth day he's there, he said, "Who is that little bloke that's writing these things down?" And the head coach says to him, "He's the most important bloke in this, in this, uh, organization." He says, "He writes down everything I do well, he writes down everything I, I don't, don't do well, and at the end of the day, he gives it to me straight." And, and you need someone in that, the organization to be doing that all the time. Like, it's like having a truth-teller there, but someone who's, who's not afraid of, of being absolutely honest to make sure that they're picking up things when you're moving away from what you should be doing.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like an external impartial conscience.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) 100%. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
F-
- EJEddie Jones
That's exactly right.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I mean, the s- the situations are so highly charged and emotional, especially when you're getting toward game time, right? We've got the World Cup coming up in-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... less than, less than two years now.
- EJEddie Jones
Y- yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, your ability to judge your own performance and, and remember what, what you said and what you did is basically zero. Like-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're the worst, you're the worst witness to your own mind. But to have-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... someone there who's on your shoulder ... What do you call that person? Is he the coach's coach? What is he?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, oh, we just call him Craigy.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- EJEddie Jones
He ... Again, he doesn't have a, he doesn't have a role, mate, but everyone knows what he does. And-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Keeps you-
- EJEddie Jones
And, and, and the great thing-
- CWChris Williamson
... he keeps you in check.
- EJEddie Jones
'Cause he's, 'cause he's seen as being neutral, he's also s- acts as a source of, uh, that any of the players or the coaches could talk to 'cause he knows nothing about rugby. Knows absolutely zero.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- EJEddie Jones
Which is the best way, you know?So, th- they have very honest conversations. So, he only, not only acts as that for me, but he acts it for, for the coaches and some of the senior players as well.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the story about a samurai sword and a kiwi?
- EJEddie Jones
(laughs) Oh, right. Oh, that was just like, you know, 'cause the players have so many meetings, we're always trying to come up with novel ways of, of reinforcing the theme as we're talking about. So, we had, as we said, with the New Zealanders, we had that, we had that thing, "We're chasing 'em. We're after 'em." You know? "We're after 'em this week. They're not coming after us, we're going after them." Anyway, I'm a half Japanese, so I always wanted to have a samurai sword. I always thought of myself as a samurai. You know? If I was born 700 years ago, I would have been a samurai. I don't know how many fights I would have lasted, but, uh, anyway. We were down in Miyazaki, this tiny little coastal town, um, for a week, and I asked the interpreter, uh, who'd worked b- with me for a period of time, to go and try to buy me a samurai sword. So, she chased me around Miyazaki and found this tiny little shop, and only one person could go in the shop, it was that small, and there was this, uh, man in there about age 80, and he'd been collecting these samurai swords. They had this collection of samurai swords, and the one, the one that, that we bought, um, was about 300 years old. Like, it's, we had the papers that said it was a legitimate samurai sword. So, that was fan-... Like, that was like a childhood dream to have that. So I thought, "Now, how am I gonna use this?" And I thought, "Well, we can't use, (laughs) we can't use it on any of the players, uh, 'cause there might be a nasty cut." So I thought, "Oh, well, kiwi fruit." So, the night before, I got some kiwi fruit up to my room and I was practicing chopping this kiwi fruit up.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 54:40 – 1:00:35
How England Prepares for the World Cup
- CWChris Williamson
How do you help the boys deal with pressure? You know, we've got this big World Cup coming up. There is some expectation after, uh, a, a run of good form recently. How are the y- especially the younger lads that maybe don't have Joe Marler's five, uh, attempted retirements-
- EJEddie Jones
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and all of his, all of his experience. How, how do you help them deal with that pressure?
- EJEddie Jones
Well, we want them to see it as a privilege. Like, it's a privilege of being part of a good team that you're, uh, that you, that the pressure's there. And the external pressure's no greater than the pre- the, the expectation that's within the team and the expectation that's within the individual. And one of, one of the things we've started doing with the players is coming up with a concept of a trademark game that we believe that... Yeah, a trademark game is a game where you play at the absolute minimum you have to play, but you play with absolute effort and absolute control. Now, we reckon if, if we have 75% of our players playing at that, 'cause that's ha- that's hard to do. If we have 75% of our players playing at that, then we'll win, we'll win most games. So, we want the players to concentrate on their effort and what they can control rather than things they can't control. So, it's again getting back to what can you control in your performance? Control that. You can control your effort. You can contr- if you can control your emotion, and you have to work on that. So they're practicing that trademark game each week, trying to, trying to get brilliant at that trademark game. And if they can do that, then the, then the better games will automatically come for them. So they don't have to aspire to be brilliant every week 'cause that's where I think the pressure comes from.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so you are allowing a release valve. You've got a realistic view of their performance, that it is going to fluctuate from the, uh, the absolute perfect to sometimes below that-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and to say, "Look, it's, it's okay."
- EJEddie Jones
It's okay as long as you're playing with effort and control. Like, there's a young player that we've, we, we just brought in. I won't mention his name. Um, but he's, he came in on the back of some brilliance at club level. Came in and played for England. Had a couple of games and he was brilliant, did some brilliant things. And now, he keeps chasing that brilliance. And rather than just chasing, play, play, play hard, play, control your emotions. And that will come sometimes. Other times, it won't come. But you can play really well and you can maybe not sco- score goals, but you can play really well for your team and help your team win. But because there's an expectation of you scoring goals, and then if you try to score goals, you're creating further pressure on yourself rather than just play hard for the team. Like, be the best player you can for the team, control your emotions, control what you can control, and, and ultimately, those better performances will come.
- CWChris Williamson
That's such a really interesting way to look at things. To avoid aiming for brilliance every single time, especially when it's not just you. You know, you could maybe argue in a sport like powerlifting where your opponent is the bar and it's gravity, the, uh-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... how would you say? The degrees of freedom of being constrained, right? There's no, there's no opponent trying to punch you in the face-
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... let's say, in, in boxing or in, in ro- sometimes in rugby.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And with that, having a, having an approach of, look, your best ever game isn't the standard that you now need to try and beat. That's just where you can get to, and what did you do that got you there, and we continue to try and iterate on that.
- EJEddie Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, the best example in rugby recently has been Dan Carter, uh, who most of his games he was very solid and then occasionally do one or two brilliant things. But people would harp on about the brilliant things, but it was actually his brilliance was his solidarity. And that's, you look at most team sports, that's what it's about. It's about being solid, working hard. Then all of a sudden you get the one opportunity, and if you're in the right place and the, at the right time, you get that opportunity to do something brilliant.
- CWChris Williamson
In England, it seems like rugby is still a private school-dominated sport. How important do you think it is to have players like Ellis Genge, who are sort of showing that, whatever, normal guys can make it to the international level?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, very important, mate, 'cause again, you know, diversity is important going forward. Um, and so we're so pleased we've got guys like Genge, guys like Sinclair, have come through. They're not out of, not out of the pathway, so to speak. They've, they've fought their way through. Got, you know, I've had previous good guys like Mark Wilson who went back to university to study. Yeah, those sort of players are really important for us.
- CWChris Williamson
Amazing. Eddie Jones, ladies and gentlemen. Where should people go if they want to find out more about the book?
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, well, Macmillan, Macmillan publishes them, and I'm sure they'll be at most bookstores, mate.
- CWChris Williamson
They'll be linked in the show notes below. Eddie, everyone will be behind you over the next couple of years. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the outcomes of all of this, these new psychologists and the person that's looked at psychopaths and the guy that's on your shoulder telling you when you're getting it wrong. I, um, I really love to see people take the minutia and the fine-tuned, fine-grain stuff right up to 11. We saw this with Team Sky in the racing, right? You know, we saw what happens when you really take a granular view, and then you deploy that to a, to a team in a way that makes sense. So yeah, man, I'm, uh, I'm confident going into 2023. All the best luck.
- EJEddie Jones
Uh, good on you, mate. I really enjoyed chatting to you. I enjoyed your questions. So all the best, mate.
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 1:00:36
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