Modern WisdomLife-Changing Insights From A Decade Of Self-Improvement - Tim Ferriss (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,096 words- 0:00 – 6:29
Just How Optimised is Tim Ferriss?
- CWChris Williamson
Most people I think would look at you and assume that you're this hyper, productive, super optimized efficiency machine. How much truth do you think is in that?
- TFTim Ferriss
I think there's some truth to it. I think I'm more effective than I am efficient. So if you were to look at me day-to-day, part of the reason I don't really ever have journalists shadow me or do anything like that is because if you were to be a fly on the wall, (laughs) I think I look like I'm doing a whole lot of nothing a lot of the time, or I'm just futzing around. But I think the choosing what you do matters a lot more than how you do any one given thing. So I do think I'm good at picking, let's call it lead dominoes that tip over other things, so high leverage targets that tend to make other things irrelevant or a lot easier. So I'm good at that. But in the actual execution, I think I look like a drowning monkey a lot of the time. So I would say there is some truth to it, but I would probably replace efficiency with effectiveness. And then in the last 10 to 15 years, I think I've de-optimized a lot since for ins- if you're running a marathon, you're not gonna take a taxi from point A to point B. Sure, that'll be efficient, but that sort of defeats the purpose of the whole exercise. So there's a lot more that I would put in that process over outcome category, I would say.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about the difference between efficiency and effectiveness.
- TFTim Ferriss
So effectiveness is... There are different ways to look at this. The way I look at it is effectiveness is what you do, efficiency is how you do something. But doing something well does not make it important or high leverage. Does that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
So if you do an 80/20 analysis and you determine, say, in learning a language, that if you learn the thousand highest frequency words, you're gonna be conversationally fluent, choosing that subset of vocabulary and then studying it at a B- level is better than choosing the wrong set of vocabulary and studying at an A+ level. So the what matters more than the how, or the material matters more than the method. The task that you choose matters more than how you do any given task. That's how I tend to think about it.
- CWChris Williamson
You say being efficient without regard to effectiveness is the default mode of the universe.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- TFTim Ferriss
I think it's very easy to mistake motion for progress, and it's, I think, counterintuitive for someone to measure twice and cut once. I think front loading a lot of thinking feels like doing nothing. It is doing nothing, physically at least, (laughs) in terms of motion. So the drive, I would say, for a lot of people is to engage in productivity theater, to do things that can pass to others or to yourself as something productive.
- CWChris Williamson
Look at how busy I am.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right, look at how busy I am. And it's not like I am a paragon of hitting home runs in this regard. I mean, there are plenty of days where just like everybody else, I pause for a second and I've been in front of a laptop for an hour and I have no idea what I've actually accomplished. Like, I've done stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
I've looked at a screen. (laughs) Could not tell you (laughs) what major projects I've driven forward in any meaningful way. So as long as you choose the highest leverage tasks, or if, as long as you have a system for choosing what is important, because that's gonna be subjective, then over time I think you can snowball your way into long-term success, again, as you define it. Having those definitions for yourself is important. Otherwise, you're gonna be flailing around or mimicking other people.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
And I think that can end up leading you in a lot of conflicting directions.
- CWChris Williamson
So if what you work on is more important than how you work on it-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... what are the rules that you use to choose what to work on?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Broadly speaking, I've th- I've thought about this a lot, and both looking in the rear view mirror, but, uh, even at the time, say, if you look at my transition, it wasn't really a transition, there were parallel tracks, but incorporating angel investing around 2008, for instance, after the success or the initial success of the first book, looking at, say, the podcast in 2014, any of these various decisions, there are a few common threads. The primary one is asking the question, and I'm not the first person to do this, but how can I succeed even if I fail, or can I succeed even if I fail? What I mean by that is, if I'm looking at five possible projects or experiments, I tend to view them as experiments. So let's just say I'm looking at six possible projects/experiments that I could pursue in the next three to six months. Let's say three months. I really tend to focus in the short term, and it'll be clear why that works in the long term in a second. If I ask myself which of these will help me to develop or deepen skills, develop or deepen relationships the most, even if they fail by external metrics, I bias towards choosing that project. And then even if it fails initially by whatever external metric you might have or perception of the public, as long as those skills and relationships transfer, they persist after that project, those will accumulate over time. And so far my experience has been they lead to better success. I mean, if you look at, say, Jodorowsky's Dune, which failed, you have Giger and all these incredible people involved, and then they split off and created these masterworks. And you see many examples like this. So I don't view the failure of any given project as a failure as long as there are things developed that can transfer forward into other things. So that's how I tend to choose my projects.
- CWChris Williamson
This is like an inverse pyrrhic victory. Do you know that idea?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. I mean, I know what a pyrrhic victory is, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But this is like an inverse of that.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's an inverse, yeah. It's like a successful failure-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
... however you would phrase that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How cool.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. And it really, at least for me and, uh, and, and also for others, I'm not the only one who's, who's thought about it this way, um...... it really does accumulate over time. So as long as you're looking at evaluating your, let's just say, accomplishment over a longer period of time, three years, five years, and you're viewing things as experiments as opposed to, like, closed loop success or failure-
- 6:29 – 13:12
Should You Focus on Long-Term Goals?
- TFTim Ferriss
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about this relationship between three months and five years.
- TFTim Ferriss
Well, I, I, my experience for most folks, myself included, is that if you were to ask me five years ago, "Could you have predicted everything that would have happened in the last five years?" Of course not. And my own experience has been that if, if I put my all into shorter term projects, let's just say three months, within that I have two to four-week experiments that I'm running of various types. Number one, that's kind of semantic insurance against psychological distress from, quote unquote, "failure."
- CWChris Williamson
Binary.
- TFTim Ferriss
Just framing it differently-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- TFTim Ferriss
... using different language-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
... to train your thoughts to sort of react differently. And furthermore, I would say that as you run these experiments, let's just say it's three months, if you were to try to set in stone some type of three-year plan, you're probably going to be creating blindness for yourself where you don't see very attractive doors that open that you had not predicted in advance.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you give me an example?
- TFTim Ferriss
Sure. Uh, me starting the podcast 2014. Uh, so I launched The 4-Hour Chef, which was a very difficult book. I mean, it was a three, four-year project that was crammed into a year, year and a half. It was a suicide mission of sorts.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
Got it done at incredible personal cost. Yay. Go masochism.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
And in the process of promoting the book, doing the launch, I always look for the uncrowded, high leverage channel which is increasing in impact and importance. At that time, that was podcasting. For the first book, it was blogs. So every time I launch a book, I'm looking for that, and I put all the chips into podcasts. And I had the opportunity to be interviewed on Rogan's show, and Nerdist, and many, many others, and that was when I became very interested in the format, and I saw how with some basic trends at play, so broadband proliferation, smartphone, uh, decreases in cost, and improvements in technology, that sort of audio as a secondary activity was just going to skyrocket-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
... via the smartphones. So I wanted to experiment. I never would've known that in advance if I had specced out... For instance, I only do one book deals. I've never done a multi-book deal. Why? Because I want to preserve my optionality. And in doing that with the f- say, The 4-Hour Chef, which was successful, but not as successful as I wanted it to be, since I'd only done a one book deal, when the podcasting became appealing as a break from writing, a means of recovery, deloading phase, but also as a way to, here's how I think about skill development, improve my ability to ask questions, reduce my verbal tics, refine my ability to interview, which would transfer to my future nonfiction books, which require a lot of research. I would also have the ability to deepen my relationships with my close friends.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
Example, my first episode with Kevin Rose, because otherwise doing hours and hours of Google sleuthing on your friends is pretty creepy-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
... (laughs) and having a one-way conversation for two hours is also pretty bizarre. But with the podcast, I would have the pretext that would allow that, and to reach out to people ultimately who I would want to get to know. It checked all the boxes, and I wouldn't have been able to take advantage of that very attractive opportunity had I already set down as a blueprint something fixed as a three-year plan, let's just say.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems to me that the people who are very good at long term plans, the only way that that can really come to fruition is if you don't have outlier events. But kind of all of us are hoping in some form for an outlier event. Like, we're hoping for the, you know, 99th percentile win. Like, maybe we're not optimizing for that, but we're like, "Yeah, like, really this could happen." And the same with you with the show, you know-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... even with all of the, the pieces in play, thinking to yourself, "Hey, over the next decade, this is gonna have a billion downloads and, you know, be maybe even better known than the books." Which was my thing, I was an author coming in, and now-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm maybe best known as a podcaster.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How, how are you able to, or maybe they compete, it... There's no way axiomatically to come into that, I think, and be like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... "And this is, this is how it's gonna go." You just don't know where the chips are gonna fall.
- 13:12 – 32:11
A Typical Day for Tim
- CWChris Williamson
from.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So talking about from a daily ritual standpoint, what does a typical day look like for you? Morning routine, full works. What's a day in the life-
- TFTim Ferriss
Sure. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... of Tim Ferriss look like?
- TFTim Ferriss
It depends on where I'm located. I was, for instance, skiing for January and February, so it looked very much like a day architected around skiing. Uh, but I'll give you, I'll give you a few different examples. So here in Austin, it would be... (laughs) And now it sounds so cliched-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
... (laughs) but nonetheless, I've been doing this a long time. (laughs) It was in The 4-Hour Body in 2010. So there you have it. But I'll do cold immersion, so 40 degrees at, say, three to five minutes. Nothing, nothing too incredibly long.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that immedu- immediately upon waking?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Waking up, and then I'll-
- CWChris Williamson
No...
- TFTim Ferriss
... I'll feed the dog, have some water-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- TFTim Ferriss
... and then cold plunge.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- TFTim Ferriss
And then I'll go directly from that to hot tub for sort of hyperdilation. I find that just helps lower back issues and things along those lines.
- CWChris Williamson
How long?
- TFTim Ferriss
Ah, three minutes. Nothing, nothing too crazy. Uh, and, and this is really for state change. It's not for any complex biological cascade that I could list out. It's, it's really for a state change. And I'll, I will back up and say that one of the principles I learned from Tony Robbins, and I don't know if, if the attribution is originally f- to Tony, but it's something that I've found very, very helpful, which is a progression. The progression is, uh, state, story, strategy. So if you are in a, say, low energy state or a negative state, you're going to create a disabling story, right? Or a critical or cynical story, which will then impact in the sense that you come up with a subpar strategy. So I always start with state, and then you will have a more enabling story. Could just be from releasing (laughs) some norepinephrine because you're freezing your balls off.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
And that will enable you to have a better strategy, at least for the day.
- CWChris Williamson
You've got an equivalent quote. "I think it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting."
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
That seems to be pretty parallel.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so we're in the hot tub.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Hot tub, get out. At that point, I might do a small amount of journaling, very, something very basic, right? Like five-minute journals. And it, the, the exact morning routine kind of depends on the day. It's not super highly variable, but there is some variation.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right? So if I feel like monkey mind is getting the best of me, probably something like journaling, whether it's morning pages or five-minute journal-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- TFTim Ferriss
... is what I'll do. It's-
- 32:11 – 47:31
What People Misunderstand About Fame
- CWChris Williamson
you think would make you happy when you were younger but didn't?
- TFTim Ferriss
I would say the short answer is money, for sure. I grew up in a family without very much money, and there was a narrative that I heard a lot at home, "If only we had more money. If only we had more money." And a lot of problems were related to money, but I came to translate that into, "If I have success, which I need, I can prevent the pain and problems and friction and handicaps that we currently have in this family." And on some level, that's true, in so much as money is a vehicle for doing certain things, preventing certain things. But it doesn't fix the inner game, and it's an amplifier, just like alcohol, power, fame. It amplifies whatever is inside, the good and the bad. If you're generous, you're gonna be super generous. If you're a jerk, you're gonna be a super jerk. If you have anxiety, if you're hypervigilant, you worry about dangers, it's going to magnify all of that. And I was, I was certainly not prepared for that, and I wouldn't trade my trajectory. I'm really grateful for having been so fortunate, and I've had some exceptionally good luck and so on. But do I think it is worth striving to be financially stable and to have freedom and options to the extent that you can within whatever your constraints are? Absolutely. But I think I viewed money as a potential fix-all.
- CWChris Williamson
Exterior solution to an internal problem.
- TFTim Ferriss
Which it was not. Now, I will say, would I go back in time and tell myself that? Maybe not, because I think I needed some hope, even if it was not founded on (laughs) reality, to have something to strive towards, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Did you get to read, uh, Will Smith's memoir-
- TFTim Ferriss
No.
- CWChris Williamson
... with Mark Manson?
- TFTim Ferriss
I haven't read it.
- CWChris Williamson
So, uh, Morgan Housel taught me about a line that's in that, and he said, "When I was poor and miserable, I had hope. When I was rich and miserable, I was despondent."
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, exactly. That is the, the best synopsis of what I have more clumsily said about many of the mega rich people I know who are very depressed.
- CWChris Williamson
"Where have I got to go?"
- TFTim Ferriss
O-
- CWChris Williamson
"I'm at the top of the ladder."
- TFTim Ferriss
Once that is, once the money as a goal is taken away as a surgical fix to whatever problems you feel are external but are largely internal-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
... it is, it can be very psychologically challenging. And yes, I mean, s- you know, small violin and-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
... everyone (laughs) , America weeps (laughs) for-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
... the rich and famous-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
... who are, who are going to therapy. I get it. Uh, but at the same time, it's, it's, it's worth being aware of. I think thinking of it as an amplifier is, is helpful. So on the way up, what I would have told myself maybe at 30 is, "Start working on some of the inner game," not from a p- strict performance perspective, because I'd been working on mental toughness training for sports and so on and so forth for executing as a machine, as an accomplishment machine. But working on some of the other things, uh, is probably what I would have advised myself at 30, 35.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about your relationship with fame. What do most people not understand about fame and status?
- TFTim Ferriss
I should ask you that. You're fresh in it.
- CWChris Williamson
(inhales deeply) I'm definitely feeling it at the moment, um-
- TFTim Ferriss
What have you learned?
- CWChris Williamson
It's strange for the world to see you in a different way and, again, appropriate caveat, head is not getting too big, micro niche flame, almost no one knows me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but, um, you are the same person to you and you are a different person to other people.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's like, have you ever seen those videos of swordfish moving through shoals?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- 47:31 – 58:48
How to Choose the Right Partner
- CWChris Williamson
What have you learned about-
- TFTim Ferriss
All the ladies who were just considering me went whoop. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
No, that's incorrect. That's incorrect.
- TFTim Ferriss
You and your goddamn biceps.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I'm a bad skier and I'm bad at s- I'm bad at snowboarding. Um, what have you learned about choosing a good partner and the limitations of that? Is love something which is outside of being hackable and optimized?
- TFTim Ferriss
I, I think there are certainly X factors. I don't, I don't th- as best I can tell. I would have figured it out by now if you could reverse engineer it perfectly and just flip a switch. Uh, but I do think over time, as you have long relationships, and I've been really fortunate to have a number of long relationships, I mean, multiple relationships in the sort of three to six year range with amazing people, you learn what seems to work for you and what seems to not work, which is not automatically a judgment of the other person. It's a judgment of yourself and having a realistic evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses and so on. Uh, so I've certainly found that, to me, a lot of things are important. Number one, this seems obvious, but it's not always obvious because we sometimes gravitate towards our own strengths. And so if someone is analytical, they look for someone who is highly analytical. And I think there's a, uh, there are certain base requirements for a good partner. You want them to be good problem solvers. You want them to be resilient and so on. But I'm looking for a complement. I want someone with incredibly high EQ, which doesn't mean I have no EQ. And I've worked hard to develop it,... but I want someone who has that as a superpower. And I would say, like, my prefrontal cortex is a superpower for other things. And I do not want to date a long-haired version of myself.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
It's like, throw me off, throw me off a skyscraper now. No, thank you. Right? Um, and I also want someone, I've thought about this very carefully and, you know, I've dated a bit in the last year, uh, which is sort of the period of my dating so far, respect isn't enough 'cause respect is something that people can demand in a sense. It's not respect because I feel like that is given, it's admiration. If I go on two dates with someone, I want to be inclined to tell my friends about her and brag about some aspect of her, aside from, like, she has the best ass I've ever seen, right? It has to be something more than that. Nothing against great asses, I mean, those are fantastic too. But it's- it's I want to admire my partner. And if they're soft-spoken and we're at a group dinner, I want to say, "She's not gonna say this, so I'll say it for her," boom, and feel really good about doing that. And there's a lot more to it. I have thought about this. Uh, I mean, I could give you my- my sort of list of- of criteria, but it's- it's also fundamentally a... it's a feeling, which is why dating apps can be so incredibly time-consuming, because what you could learn, somebody please make a dating app where the sole purpose is to get people on a 10-minute video call.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. (laughs)
- TFTim Ferriss
That's it. That's it. The stated purpose is just 10-minute video call-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
... and it's built intrinsically into the app. That's it. That's the only goal of the app because-
- CWChris Williamson
Like virtual speed dating.
- TFTim Ferriss
... within two minutes, you know if there is some type of vibe.
- CWChris Williamson
Chemistry.
- TFTim Ferriss
You know if your spider sense is saying go or no go. And, uh, I would also say as someone who, in a sense, took my hypersensitivity offline because my senses are very sensitive. Like I am a very, not in a, uh, reactive sense, easily offended sense, but, uh, in the context of my- my senses being very high fidelity, I took that offline for a lot of my life due to childhood problems and so on. But bringing those back online was important, not just for dating, but also for navigating the fame stuff because as you have more notoriety, people are going to seek you out who you need to be wary of. And that's not all the time, it's not half of the people, but you will have people with ulterior motives. And so you want to be very tuned in, not to what your analytical mind is producing, but to what your pre-language evolved other means of assessment are telling you, what your body's telling you.
- CWChris Williamson
This is what I'm kind of obsessed by at the moment, that, uh, feeling feelings and integrating emotions is, um, I know it just seemed for a long time I had- I had a desire, I guess I still do, you know, to be seen as a- a legitimate thinker, like somebody who has intellectual horsepower and the capacity to be rational and do all the... and I, you know, went hardcore down the rationality movement and if- if only I can learn Shane Parrish's top 100 cognitive biases off by heart, then I, all of my problems, if I read- if I can recite Thinking Fast and Slow, all of my problems will be... Turns out that that doesn't particularly work. And one of the reasons it doesn't particularly work is that no matter how much you try to sort of clamp down on what's coming up, the thing that is coming up is the issue and papering over that crack over and over and over again results in you just playing emotional Groundhog Day and then having a- an increasingly, uh, complex cathedral of different architectures to try and... Hey.
- TFTim Ferriss
That was good.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, to try and, uh, architect a structure to account for it.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, I told you before, sort of big into this feeling feelings thing or trying to at the moment, and, um, yeah, finding not just being at the mercy of them, but not just totally being in cognitive horsepower mode and trying to integrate those together. And that's fundamentally what you're looking for with a partner as well. And-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... there's something in a relationship, uh, where you go, "Well, objectively all of the boxes have been ticked. Why can't I get my love attachments, lust side to trigger as well?" Like, look, the- all of the thing... I mean, if you look at the rating, the rating says-
- TFTim Ferriss
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "You should be in a relationship with this person."
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you go, "Yeah, but ultimately the heart wants what the heart wants." And you don't really get to reverse engineer that.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And there can be an awful lot of shame and guilt. I've certainly felt this, an awful lot of shame and guilt around, um, having desires about being like, this is... the... I want a thing-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- 58:48 – 1:15:37
A Prophylactic Against Low Moods
- CWChris Williamson
uh, uh, January to, uh, March training window. That's the diet." You know? Like, the New Year's resolutions will be stuck to the best-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and then you kind of have a... Hopefully coming to land at a nice appropriate level thereafter.
- TFTim Ferriss
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
One of the other things, uh, for better or worse that we're both, uh, familiar with is low mood.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, what are the things that you do to pull yourself out of a funk? Or how would you advise people to better deal with depression and anxiety, a low mood?
- TFTim Ferriss
I really think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure with this. So I, I try to prophylactically (laughs) have routines in place that seem to decrease the likelihood, including cold exposure, which for a long time was prescribed for melancholy, right? This is, this is not new.
- CWChris Williamson
What? Like medieval times?
- TFTim Ferriss
Uh, like 100, 200 years ago. Like, it was, it was a prescription cold baths for melancholy, AKA depression. So this is what (laughs) what is old is now new again. Uh, but, but certainly cold exposure. I would say without a doubt having a consistent exercise routine, and something's better than nothing. Like, the difference, the zero to one difference between no movement and some movement is (laughs) black and white. So even if it is just going for a 20-minute walk twice a day if you have a very packed day, schedule your calls around your walks. Social time, time with friends, which is where I disagree with some of the very strong denouncements of, say, alcohol, um, in the sense that, like, even one drink is terrible for you. That may be true from a strictly biochemical perspective, and I'm not advising you go out and get shit-faced five nights a week, but for instance, if one night a week I pre-schedule a group dinner on a Friday and I'm gonna cook with friends and that means we drink wine while we're cooking, if that alcohol acts as a super lube-, uh, a social lubricant and helps me connect with my friends, I think there's something to it, right? There are, there are social effects, not just biochemical effects. I don't drink very much, but, uh, the group interactions and scheduling those in advance. So on a yearly basis, I will block out-This is very important for me. And again, not obsessing on the daily routine, but thinking about the weekly, which we've dis- which we've discussed, thinking about the annual. So I block out multiple weeks every year to take trips with family and friends, and I have two that I'm organizing right now. These are week-long trips. There will be, let's call it six to 10 people in each group. Some will be slightly smaller for wilderness adventures, and those are blocked out for the year in advance. And this is really critical for a few reasons. It's not just about the experience. You have all of the group threads and excitement and training and prep and fantasizing and, you know, stupid dick meme jokes that guys swap or whatever in the WhatsApp groups (laughs) that lead up to the trip. Then you have the trip, and then you have all the memories and the shared experiences and the misadventures and the mishaps that you get so much juice out of these things, and those act for me as psychological safety nets. You always have something to look forward to if you-
- CWChris Williamson
That's a-
- TFTim Ferriss
... have three or four of these a year.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's a, a, and big part of the podcast I think for me. I think we're both kind of the same with this, that, um, the external accountability of someone being there, there is a time on the calendar someone is expecting you to be there.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They are a guest. You probably respect them. You probably care about what they think about you. You probably want to perform well for them and also put them in a great light and, and, and be a springboard for them and their message because you're interested in what they've got to do. All of those things. It's like, you're not not showing up. I've never once... I've canceled, in my, my previous life as a club promoter, I would not show up for events, I would not show up for bits and pieces, 'cause I could always sort of work somebody else to go and do a thing if it was just me that had to do it. But as soon as o- even one other person was involved or 2,000 appearing at a nightclub, I'd be there and I would be there because there was accountability and there was, there was this expectation. I have never once canceled a podcast in 750 episodes, six and a half years, due to low mood. No matter how low the mood is-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... because there's, I, I, I, it, it gets taken out. It, it gets eroded away by my excitement to go and do the thing. And the same thing is true with a holiday, and the same thing is true with, uh, dinner with a friend, uh, the same thing. Like, it's the same reason why a training partner just makes so much sense when you can. Like, I'm... Every Saturday, for instance, in Austin, I do the same session, eh, with progressive overload, the same exercises with the same guy. We've done this for two years. It's one of my favorite days of the week. Saturday morning, I'm full of caffeine, it's shoulders, biceps, and triceps starting with calves. Best day of the week.
- TFTim Ferriss
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) And I love it. And every single Saturday, no matter how shit the week's gone, no matter how bad I'm feeling, if we're available and we're both in the city, we both go and do it.
- TFTim Ferriss
So let me build on that and say another piece of managing or mitigating or preventing low mood for me is having some identity diversification, which means you're not just doing one thing. If you have your podcast, your startup, your job as the sole b- uh, barometer of your self-worth, there's so many factors outside of your control, or your investment portfolio, whatever it might be. If you are solely fixated on one thing, you're too vulnerable to black swan events or simply ups and downs due to variables that are outside of your control. So in contrast, if you have (laughs) your Saturday workout or you have your deadlift, you have rock climbing, you have archery, you have whatever it might be, in addition to your primary work, in addition to drawing, in addition to your relationship that you're trying to cultivate and deepen, if any one of those things is down, just like in a stock portfolio-
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Correct.
- TFTim Ferriss
... if they are somewhat uncorrelated, you can still have a good week. If you have a terrible week, but then you hit a PR on your Saturday workout...
- CWChris Williamson
We did it, baby.
- TFTim Ferriss
We did it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Pass.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. You're hedging, you're hedging your identity, you're hedging your sort of existential investment.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, exactly. And that, that is very, very, very important to me that I have multiple tracks running at the same time, so that if, if one hits a roadblock, that it's, it's not just an existential spiral.
- CWChris Williamson
We'll get back to talking to Tim in one minute, but first I need to tell you about Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui delivers the healthiest red meat on the planet directly to your door. First off, their venison sticks are seriously delicious, not gamey at all, and unbelievably convenient to eat. No one accidentally hits their protein goals and these little puppies will help you throughout the day. If you're traveling, if you're on the road, or if you're just a rushed human like the rest of us, these things will help you to hit your protein goals and ensure that you're getting good quality meat throughout the day. Not only do they provide the most nutrient dense and high protein red meat available, they're the only stress-free 100% wild harvested red meat on the market. Also, they're actively combating the environmental destruction caused by Maui's axis deer overpopulation, which literally looks like a wildfire from above. So by eating meat, you're actually helping the environment. Get 20% off your first order by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to maui nui venison.com/modernwisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's M-A-U-I N-U-I venison.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. Do you have a, uh, like break glass in case of impending low mood protocol? Something you just start to see the, uh, early warning signs? Is there a, "Okay, I need to pull the pin with these, these things"?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, I would say, uh, I would say one... I'll give, I'll give some that are perhaps more easily within reach of, of most people and easier to recommend. Honestly, group dinners. Three to four friends, group dinners, long group dinners. No alcohol. If I see low mood coming, then no alcohol, beca-
- 1:15:37 – 1:21:28
Are Deep Thinkers More Lonely?
- CWChris Williamson
in the show notes below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. Do you think deep thinkers are more lonely?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, my knee-jerk response to that would be yes, for sure. I think anyone who is very heady and trapped in the song of me, me, me, in the sense of, like, recursive thought, is going to likely feel isolated. And I would say that there may be some argument to be made that with that superpower comes a secondary function, which is like a shielding function to not feel, to divorce yourself from certain bodily sensations, which is part of the reason, not to drag this back into ketamine, why ketamine is so seductive for type A, highly analytical males. And, uh, it's not to say that women can't become addicted, but from what I've seen, it is predominantly male who want to avoid feeling something. And that could be subconscious or it could be conscious, but it serves the same purpose as alcohol. So if you, if your family or you have ever used alcohol to take the edge off, you are susceptible to ketamine addiction, is what I would say.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
Similarly, you are susceptible to basically viewing your consciousness and existence from the neck up. And I think both can have severe side effects in terms of social side effects, hmm, sort of psycho-emotional side effects, certainly.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, a quote from Alain de Botton where he says, "Loneliness is a kind of tax we have to pay to atone for a certain complexity of mind."
- TFTim Ferriss
I don't know if I agree with that.
- CWChris Williamson
So I used to.
- TFTim Ferriss
I think it can be a tax.
- CWChris Williamson
I used to. Um, I... The position that I've arrived at now, especially since moving to Austin, which is kind of full of cultural psychological refugees from other places where they maybe didn't fit in in any case, uh, is that you just maybe need to work harder to find your tribe.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That, um, your, uh, psychological, uh, non-typicalness, uh, will mean that you are out toward the edges of whatever bell curve of normal, of normalness you are. So it's gonna be fewer people are going to get you, but I actually think that that's fine because the people that you do find that you do like and do get on with you will also have that, like, oasis in the middle of the desert sensation that's like, "Oh, dude, you get me." Like, "You, you think about this too."
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I, I, I think while, while I was still living in the UK, I was struggling to connect with people. I, you know, met a million people across my career of standing on the front door of nightclubs, and I had a handful of friends, most of whom I worked with in one form or another.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's not a fantastic friend exposure to conversion ratio. Like, my marketing funnel wasn't marketing, right? It wasn't converting. Uh, I should speak to Toby. And then I came to Austin, and I realized that, well, there is a bit more. Like, there, it's not been as hard. And maybe that's starting to self-select because people kind of are seeking me out, and obviously, you know, like, advantages of fame, I suppose, or at least of, like, being front-facing. Um, but I, I think that in the wrong groups, yes, loneliness can be a kind of tax you have to pay to atone for a certain complexity of mind.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But it also offers you the opportunity...... like, the only way out is through. And through means working maybe a bit harder to find people that are like the people that you want to be around.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, I also, I also feel like those who are good at thinking sometimes become hammers looking for nails. I know that's true for me, in the sense-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean?
- TFTim Ferriss
... that we think, for instance, and this, this might not be explicit, but that we can cogitate our way into equanimity, inner peace-
- CWChris Williamson
You mean we can't-
- TFTim Ferriss
... and there's-
- CWChris Williamson
I can't do that?
- TFTim Ferriss
... and there's this fetishizing of independence, especially in the US-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
... where if you look for apes, monkeys, (laughs) certainly, historically, hominids who were lone survivors, I don't think you're gonna find them, right? We are interdependent, and as a species, we have evolved to co-exist. So for me, I used to view loneliness as a failure of self, like a failure of discipline, a failure of resilience, a failliance, uh, a failure of inner narrative, something like that. I think it's much, much simpler in the sense (laughs) that loneliness is usually a failure of group activities in your calendar. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) You know, it's not-
- TFTim Ferriss
Just, just like you might be doing morning pages for an hour trying to figure out the riddles of your life and the complexities of your pain. It's like, no, you just need some macadamia nuts and a-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
... cup of water and a shower.
- 1:21:28 – 1:30:36
How To Stop Being So Hypervigilant
- CWChris Williamson
feel, uh, hypervigilance, always scanning for threats, fear-based motivations being something that their varying levels of awareness is something that drives them. The benefits of it aren't maybe as obvious, but I think people that have hypervigilance, of which I am one, I think that you are one as well-
Episode duration: 3:11:24
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 9G5dXlMGMf8
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome