Life Hacks: A Christmas Special (2025)

Chris Williamson 0:00 Merry Christmas, everybody. For the people who joined the podcast within the last five years, the last few million, three million subscribers, uh, this is my living room in Newcastle. And this is Johnny, uh, and this is George, uh, and that's Yusuf, and he's in Malaysia. Uh, and this is a Christmas episode. We've got one day to turn this around, so merry Christmas. It's Christmas Day. Um, enjoy the turkey and the pigs in blankets, uh, and we are gonna do some lessons and life hacks and fails from the last 12 months. It's kind of a Christmas tradition, I suppose. And also another part of the tradition is that you go first, Johnny. So give us-

Jonny 0:42 Every year.

Chris Williamson 0:42 ... give us a life hack. All right.

Jonny 0:43 My life hack, which might not be allowed, we'll see if it gets past the, the Chris rule, has already been a life hack.

Chris Williamson 0:51 Okay.

Jonny 0:51 Is that all right?

Chris Williamson 0:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonny 0:52 Only the best once.

Chris Williamson 0:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonny 0:53 It's, the reason it's a life hack is I was speaking to a few friends about this, and neither of them had heard of it, and I was like, "You know, I thought Chris' podcast did better than that."

Chris Williamson 1:02 Really building the tension here.

Jonny 1:03 I know. Well, it's, it's the Waking Up app by Sam Harris.

Chris Williamson 1:07 Okay. (laughs)

Jonny 1:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09 Okay.

Jonny 1:09 Why is that bad?

Chris Williamson 1:10 Too sponsored. It's not. Have you been paid off by Big Sam?

Jonny 1:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:15 Big medita- big meditations come to get you.

Jonny 1:17 I, I think... Uh, well, d- d- do you guys meditate?

Chris Williamson 1:20 Yes.

Jonny 1:20 No? Yes. I think it is the... Well, so, so the, the hack specifically is download the app using the c- no. Download the app and listen to the Fundamentals, like, Theory series, and it's, like, five audios with Sam explaining why you should meditate, and I think that is the thing. I, so I've meditated every day this year. It's the first time it's ever happened, and it was that audio series that got me.

Chris Williamson 1:48 But that's not a meditation.

Jonny 1:50 That's not-

Chris Williamson 1:50 It's just buy-in.

Jonny 1:51 Yeah. So the, the app is also... I think it makes it, it's just, like, a daily audio you can follow. They're different every day.

Chris Williamson 1:56 Okay.

Jonny 1:56 It's, like, daily programming.

Chris Williamson 1:57 Yeah.

Jonny 1:58 Classic programming for meditation.

Chris Williamson 1:58 But this was important because it got you to buy into doing...

Jonny 2:02 Yeah. So there's a, there's, like, an analogy he uses in it, which is... This, this isn't word for word, but something like everyone's in a, in a dream wh- about being a human being, and it's like you're... The dream is you're in a prison cell, and everyone's trying to make the prison cell nicer by, like, buying things and moving them around and changing where the windows are, and that's life. And meditating allows you to just wake up from the dream-

Chris Williamson 2:24 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 2:25 ... and it's a completely different way of viewing, kind of, that everybody's absorbed in their thoughts and their feelings and just being run by their mind.

Chris Williamson 2:32 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 2:33 And meditating is just waking up from the dream. But that series completely changed how I feel about meditating.

Chris Williamson 2:40 But this... You're not saying this as someone who hadn't met- meditated a lot before.

Jonny 2:43 It... Yeah, so-

Chris Williamson 2:45 You've done thousands of sessions of meditation previously.

Jonny 2:47 Yeah, but I think the, the difference is it's kind of like the switch where you go from, like, going to the gym because, like, you think you should to it just becomes, like, part of your personality, part of what you do.

Chris Williamson 3:01 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 3:01 And that identity change for me was that series.

Chris Williamson 3:04 Do you feel that, Yusuf?

George 3:08 Yeah, the identity shift is, is big as well. The, uh, the quote of watch your thoughts because they become your words, watch your words because they become your actions, watch your actions because they, they become your habits, become your beliefs, your perception, your identity. Um, so, like, starting at that means that the downstream habits are much easier to stick to. I also love the, uh, rearranging the furniture in the prison cell analogy.

Jonny 3:37 (laughs) So how long are you doing the sessions for?

George 3:40 I'll do, like... So the standard one is, like, 10 minutes long.

Chris Williamson 3:44 Mm-hmm.

George 3:44 And I'll do, I'll do that as the minimum, and then if it's going well, I'll keep going.

Chris Williamson 3:50 Mmm.

George 3:50 If it's, like... You know those days, and especially ones where he, like, makes you have your eyes open?

Chris Williamson 3:54 They're hard.

George 3:55 They're particularly difficult-

Chris Williamson 3:56 Yeah.

George 3:56 ... because you're sitting there, like... Those are difficult to do. But if it's... I think it, the easiest way to make it a, an, an effortless habit is not trying to do 30 minutes or 40 minutes, just have a minimum, and then let it, let it roll.

Chris Williamson 4:08 So how is getting out of the prison cell going?

George 4:12 I... Good question. I, I have glimpses where I'm like, "Oh, this is just the dream of being in a prison cell."

Jonny 4:17 What does that mean?

George 4:18 The difficult... Well... (laughs) What does it mean? It's the identifying with your thoughts versus it's the experience of, of a self.

Chris Williamson 4:28 Mm-hmm.

George 4:29 I feel like this is... For the first life hack this is going... I also don't feel like I'm qualified-

Chris Williamson 4:32 (laughs)

George 4:32 ... to talk about this.

Chris Williamson 4:33 (laughs)

George 4:34 That's not-

Chris Williamson 4:34 That's what this show is for.

George 4:35 That's why I referred to the, um, referred to the, the app, because I think Sam is qualified to talk about it. But it's a... It changes your perspective and your relationship with yourself and with now, with the present moment. The happiness trap doesn't even need to be that metaphysical. It's just like, usually, we, we are motivated to do something to close a gap between desire and outcome, and we do that, and our brain goes blip, and just releases a bit of, like, some neurochemical that makes us happy for a moment. And then that neurochemical depletes, and then we think that we have to go and achieve the thing in order to give ourselves permission to release the little blip again into our brains, and it's just that cycle. Whereas if you realize that it's your brain that's releasing that stuff and you can just do it on tap, then you've short-circuited-

Chris Williamson 5:23 You don't-

George 5:23 ... the whole process, and you're not having to chase some- something out there.

Chris Williamson 5:27 Such a good point. There was a resurfaced clip of the first Huberman episode that I did from mid-2022 that I saw the other day, and he's got this line in it where he says, "It's all internal." Everything in life is all internal. You finish a marathon in first place, and you've been working your entire life to do it, and you run across the finish line. And that sensation, no one else comes along and drips dopamine down the back of your brain stem. Like, this is just you generating all of this. Now, obviously...... were designed to respond to what happens in the real world. Like, that's the entire way that we're sort of adaptively evolved. But it does suggest that, well, if you can get closer to the root of where all of this stuff's coming from, which is just internally-

Jonny 6:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:16 ... uh, you can probably at least make it easier to achieve what it is that you want without having to fight into a headwind all the time.

Jonny 6:24 Well, even the real world's a farce, because you have, uh, 10 times the number of neurons going from your brain to your eye than you do from your eye to your brain. So, your eye is actually taking more information from your brain than, than the other way around. So it's const- your brain's constantly creating a prediction of reality.

Chris Williamson 6:42 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 6:42 So like the best example is, you know when you're kind of walking down stairs, and this happens to me way too often-

Chris Williamson 6:47 (laughs)

Jonny 6:47 ... where you think there's another stair and you're at the end, and you kind of feel-

Chris Williamson 6:51 (laughs)

Jonny 6:51 ... the stair, um, and then your foot goes down, and you, for a second you feel it's there, and then you go, "Oh, shit," and then you fall.

Chris Williamson 6:57 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 6:58 Um, but your brain kind of simulated the reality, so your brain's constantly making these prediction models-

Chris Williamson 7:04 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 7:04 ... that don't actually exist, and then when you have an error or you have a failure, that's when it constantly corrects.

Chris Williamson 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 7:11 It's a lot like when you think something's lemonade but actually it's water.

Chris Williamson 7:13 Yeah. (laughs)

Jonny 7:14 Exactly. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 7:16 Does that happen a lot? (laughs) To you?

Jonny 7:17 Once a week.

Chris Williamson 7:19 (laughs)

Jonny 7:19 (laughs) But you know that, there's that moment, the moment of like, something horrible is happening.

Chris Williamson 7:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Jonny 7:24 (laughs) For a second.

Chris Williamson 7:25 Something horrible is happening.

Jonny 7:26 Or something horrible is happening.

Chris Williamson 7:28 Yeah. Right.

Jonny 7:28 And then you're like, oh no, it's fine.

Chris Williamson 7:29 It's just water.

Jonny 7:29 It's just water.

Chris Williamson 7:30 All right. That's a good one. Waking up at, by Sam Harris-

Jonny 7:32 It's the, it's the meta hack, isn't it? It's the thing that like changed your relationship with now and everything has to be

Yusef 7:37 What was the call-

Chris Williamson 7:38 What's the intro course thing called again?

Jonny 7:40 It's called The Fundamentals. So in, in Waking Up, there's theory, practice, there's like lectures to listen to, there's all the Alamut series.

Chris Williamson 7:46 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 7:46 But there's a, there's an initial intro series called The Fundamentals by Sam where he's basically trying to convince you to meditate, and it's like five audios.

Chris Williamson 7:54 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 7:54 They're all about 10 minutes long.

Chris Williamson 7:55 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 7:56 Awesome.

Chris Williamson 7:57 Wow.

Jonny 7:57 It's like that time when you made me read the beginning, all of the beginning of The Six-Minute Diary.

Chris Williamson 8:04 Yes. Yes.

Jonny 8:05 Then you insisted, and I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm reading it."

Chris Williamson 8:08 Yeah.

Jonny 8:08 But reading it is what got me to use it every day.

Chris Williamson 8:11 Of course.

Jonny 8:11 Reading that intro.

Chris Williamson 8:12 Very good.

Jonny 8:12 Have you heard of jhana meditation?

Chris Williamson 8:14 Here we go.

Jonny 8:15 Yes.

Chris Williamson 8:15 Here we go.

Jonny 8:16 Yeah. This is a fun one of, um, 'cause I think what happens to a lot of people is they go fr- via the mindfulness route, which is-

Chris Williamson 8:21 Yeah.

Jonny 8:21 ... what a lot of people get onboarded to.

Chris Williamson 8:23 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 8:23 But you realize, oh, that's just a way, so there's lots of different ways. But-

Chris Williamson 8:26 It's like thinking about exercise and only looking at running.

Jonny 8:29 Exactly. Um, which is basically what's kind of happened in that space, but the jhana meditation idea is when you essentially keep, rather than focus on your breath, you focus on something that brings you great joy.

Chris Williamson 8:40 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 8:40 And it go, it's the best description I've heard of it, is it's like a panic attack but for joy, and then you pulse and pulse and pulse. You think of your child, for example, think about that, think about that, think about that, and it's a much, sometimes a quicker way than trying to delete all thoughts.

Chris Williamson 8:54 What's your thoughts on jhana, Saf?

Yusef 8:57 The, the two things that George was talking about there, so at the vipassana retreat that I did is ten days of floodlight meditation, where you're, you're scanning with as, as open focus as possible and trying to dial up the fidelity of your sensations so that you can like start picking up like 10 micro-sensations per second. That's used in a retreat setting because, uh, I've heard it described as like rubbing bits of flint together. It's like it needs a lot of time and momentum to get going, and then it builds the fire. Whereas jhana meditation is a lot more like hyperfocused. It's kind of like the laser beam versus the floodlight. Um, I've not achieved jhana. Um, I know George is, is, is just chilling in jhana right now, but, um, yeah, it's, it's super compelling. There's a, there's a movement, can you remember the name of it, George? I think it's the guy who said it's a panic attack for joy. He's like a tech founder who was really stressed and now runs jhana retreats in the States.

Jonny 9:56 Yeah, I know who it is but I've forgotten the chap's name off the top of my head. There's a few, there's a few.

Yusef 10:00 He's, he's got a good, he's got a good description of it, and then Michael Burby as well, um, has all of his retreats on YouTube, um, so you can follow along.

Chris Williamson 10:10 All right. Saf, you're up. What have you got?

Yusef 10:13 So, I have a life hack. However, I think I need your guys' help, um, because I, I'm struggling to have some kind of categorization system in order to place the life hack in. Does that make sense?

Chris Williamson 10:28 Go on.

Yusef 10:30 So, (laughs) -

Jonny 10:31 (laughs)

Yusef 10:31 ... so if you have any suggestions on how I might categorize the aforementioned life hacks, that would be-

Chris Williamson 10:38 Do you feel like-

Yusef 10:39 ... really helpful.

Chris Williamson 10:39 Do you feel like some of them are like physical and some are digital?

Yusef 10:44 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:50 (laughs) This is a joke.

Yusef 10:51 So this one-

Chris Williamson 10:51 This is a joke for the peop- for the people who are in the last 95% of subscribers, this is a joke that has been done 30 or 40 times.

Yusef 10:58 Probably it's like a decade old.

Chris Williamson 11:00 Yeah. Yeah, it's getting

Chris Williamson 11:01 there. Okay. First one.

Yusef 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:02 Here we go.

Yusef 11:04 (laughs) This is like you mentioned, Chris, about the curve of m- the large por- proportion of people who are actually just tuned in now and are just like, "What? These guys are mental."

Chris Williamson 11:13 Yep.

Yusef 11:13 So, my hack is-

Chris Williamson 11:16 (laughs)

Yusef 11:16 ... use Uber for flights. So-

Chris Williamson 11:18 Use Uber for flights.

Yusef 11:20 Honestly, I c- I cannot believe how easy it is. So, in the five minutes between landing the plane, getting reception, and standing up and leaving, I booked my next flight to Vietnam on Uber on mobile. It's like it already has your details and you just go boop, done, and it gives you Uber credits, like 10% for every flight booked. So, the benefit of this hack is that you're not having to go through like random airlines and Skyscanner or Google Flights or any of that stuff. It just gives you the best price with the easiest booking experience. And they don't charge a markup. I don't know ha- what the business model is for that. ... part of Uber, unless it's just, like, lost leader. But brilliant. So I'm never going back to booking flights any other way.

Chris Williamson 12:11 I'm just doing it now, I'm doing it now on my phone, Uber Travel. I mean, Uber, when you actually look at it, the number of different things that Uber can do is pretty insane. You can get them to collect parcels for you. You can get them to drop off-

Yusef 12:25 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:25 ... drop off different stuff. Uh, I didn't know that-

Jonny 12:28 Or Uber Green for booking flights.

Chris Williamson 12:29 I did not know that they did flights. What's the difference between this and Skyscanner? 'Cause I'm a big Skyscanner stan.

Yusef 12:36 As far as I understand, Skyscanner, you still have to get redirected to the, um, airline, and then you have to fill in all your details like four times and your passport number and all this stuff. So, like, m- currently, I'm in Malaysia but I've gone via, like, Singapore and then going Brisbane, Sydney, Vietnam, Bali, like, through lots of little airports and stuff. And these shitty little airlines that have websites that barely work and you just, like, try multiple times to book it. Like, I spent 40 minutes trying to book something on, like, Batik Airlines, couldn't get it working. Uber, 37 quid, like, took five minutes.

Chris Williamson 13:14 Wow, free price freeze.

Yusef 13:18 Oh, yeah. So they, they freeze the price and they let you change the dates flexibly as well for like an extra £3 or something.

Chris Williamson 13:25 Wow, so the cost of the price is, th- the cost of freezing it is just £18. "Stay safe from price increases while you plan your trip." All right, this is, this is really good.

Yusef 13:35 Oh, they also have a feature where-

Chris Williamson 13:35 This is really, really, really-

Yusef 13:37 Honestly like-

Chris Williamson 13:37 ... fucking good.

Yusef 13:38 ... top tier life hack. It, they also have a thing-

Chris Williamson 13:41 Holy shit.

Yusef 13:41 ... where if you book, if you book a flight now and the price drops in between now and the flight happening you get the difference.

Chris Williamson 13:51 Wow.

Jonny 13:52 Big hack.

Chris Williamson 13:53 This is-

Jonny 13:53 Big hack.

Chris Williamson 13:54 This, this is... You've really come out of the gates swinging here, Jesus Christ.

Jonny 13:57 (laughs)

Yusef 13:59 Well, this is proof it is, worked.

Chris Williamson 14:02 I think it's quite as good as mine, in my opinion. Uh, well, yeah, unfortunately Sam Harris isn't involved in this one.

Yusef 14:05 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 14:05 Uh, okay. Um, (laughs) I'm gonna go off the back of this one, um, just because it, it makes the most sense. Flighty. Heard of Flighty?

Jonny 14:16 No.

Chris Williamson 14:17 Oh, my days. Okay, so I learned this-

Yusef 14:20 Can you use Flighty Premium for this?

Chris Williamson 14:21 Of course, you can fucking Flighty Premium.

Yusef 14:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:24 You're talking to a, a Flighty veteran here. Uh, so Flighty is a flight tracking app and what it does is it automatically links in with your calendar, your email inbox. When you book a flight and the confirmation comes through, it automatically loads everything in and it tells you gate changes, delays, where your luggage is going to, what terminal you leave from, what time you're boarding. It can give you a history of the last time that the flight, uh, all of the, the last 30 days of the flight, how much it's been delayed, for what reason. If there's any adjustments that get made, it'll tell you immediately as well. While you're in the air, it'll track your journey and then bring you back into land. It tracks all of your previous stuff. It is, it's outs- c- so you never need to, once you start using Flighty you will never check another, uh, airport board again, 'cause it's all there. And it gets updated before the board, because the board usually takes a little bit of time but this just comes through from whatever the central hub that's giving all this information out is. And, uh, y- it's just, it's seamless. The number of times that I have n- not missed flights, especially when you've got connections and... It, it's outstanding. So Flighty, I think Premium's maybe 30 bucks a year? 10 bucks? Super cheap. Um, you can also add friends so you can see when your friends are flying, where they're flying, if they're delayed as well. So you can track all of your friends' flights also. And, uh, it automatically links in and then it gives you reports at the end of the year, how long you've spent being delayed and stuff. There's some, like, cool additional things. But largely, never check another adverti- a- another, um, airport board for what gate am I leaving from, where has my luggage gone to, what time do I need to get there. It's got a little island, a tracking island, and it also pops up on your home screen. So, it, it's, it's fantastically designed. Everybody that's started using it, I just can't believe it.

Jonny 16:16 So you get the gate information before everyone else does?

Chris Williamson 16:18 Basically. That's the bi- the big thing is gate information plus a live island that sort of tracks everything.

Jonny 16:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:23 Um, but y- you just never have to think again, and it's all automatically linked in with your emails. It's brilliant.

Yusef 16:30 Has it changed how early you get to the airport?

Chris Williamson 16:34 Mm. Not particularly. My, even for international now, I'm typically getting to an airport about an hour before I leave. That has been a high-risk strategy. But in America you've got TSA and CLEAR and, and things that can fast track you through security.

Yusef 16:50 What's the spread of, um, airport arrival times in this room?

Chris Williamson 16:54 I usually arrive about an hour before I'm gonna depart, so usually about half an hour before boarding. What about you?

Jonny 17:00 Mine's like 90 minutes.

Chris Williamson 17:01 Okay. Yeah.

Jonny 17:03 For me it depends where I am.

Chris Williamson 17:04 Yep, which airport.

Jonny 17:05 If I'm in the US, a lot earlier. If I'm in the UK, a lot later.

Chris Williamson 17:09 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 17:09 Okay.

Jonny 17:09 I feel like if you arrive Newcastle Airport, you could arrive 15 minutes before.

Chris Williamson 17:13 Go straight through.

Jonny 17:14 'Cause if it's Heathrow, it's-

Chris Williamson 17:15 Yeah.

Jonny 17:15 ... you need to allow a bit more time.

Chris Williamson 17:17 Yeah. All right.

Yusef 17:18 I just always love, 'cause everyone's got, like, one YOLO mate who just turns up, like, 15 minutes before and (laughs) chances it.

Chris Williamson 17:26 Yeah. Unfortunately, America has much more flux between the size of the queues.

Yusef 17:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:33 The UK's usually pretty consistent, unless you're at Heathrow. Whereas in Austin sometimes the entire terminal has just been filled with people, hundreds of yards of people, and then other times there's no one.

Yusef 17:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:46 Uh, so, I don't know whether that's because the airport needs a bit of work.

Chris Williamson 17:50 George, what have you got for us?

Jonny 17:51 I don't think we've spoken about airlines enough.

Chris Williamson 17:55 (laughs)

Jonny 17:56 So, uh, um, my one, I'll go in with, um, something different, which is chess clocks.

18:06 Oh, God.

18:07 (laughs) Don't "oh, God."

18:08 Uh, no, no, no, no. I-

18:10 It's a-

18:10 Yeah, I know where he's gonna go with this.

18:11 So, uh, it's one of the ideas I got from, uh, the writer Tim Urban who obviously did the amazing TED Talk on procrastination and then ironically spent, like, six years procrastinating on his, uh, book. And he said the biggest lesson from it was when it comes to deep work, which I've got another point I'll come onto in a second, but particularly when it comes to deep work, um, if you can get four hours done in a day, I think you're in the top 1%. Um, but a lot of people f- think, "Oh, I work eight hours a day, I work 10 hours a day." And he found that when it came to writing the book, he would go to write it and then other little bits of work would come up. There'd be a Slack message here, there'd be an internet scroll here. So the chess clock methodology is you essentially set it up where you have 16 hours in the day, okay, and your goal is to get four hours on one side of the chess clock. And whenever you're doing anything that isn't the thing, you have to hit it over. So if you go to go to the bathroom, hit it over. Go for a walk, hit it over. Somebody comes in, hit it over. So there's always an immediate price to bullshit or to distraction. Um, and you realize, oh, wow, first off, when you do four hours, like properly four hours, you're- that is a lot of time. And then a lot of the time you'll be there at 12:00 PM going, wow, like there's just all this kind of free time for the rest of the day. If you don't have a chess clock, like, the other simple approach is to just literally set an alarm for four hours and then at any time you stop you have to pause it. Yeah. Yeah.

19:44 So there's just always- it hacks the, uh, the kind of brain's circuitry that there's always some form of punishment for distraction whereas previously there isn't. And the amount of times you can convince yourself you're doing something that isn't the actual thing is, um, is significant.

20:00 That's some- I can see that working for, like, an external problem, like someone comes in, someone rings you up, email, whatever.

20:07 Mm-hmm.

20:07 But I think the main barrier to deep work is like an internal- so you're doing something-

20:13 Mm-hmm.

20:13 ... and then you'll think, oh, I just need to do this, and then you open, open a different window.

20:17 Pause the clock.

20:18 But it- the pro- the problem for most people I don't think is, like, "I'm aware I'm distracted now but I'll just be distracted."

20:24 Mm.

20:25 I don't think people are aware that they're being distracted.

20:26 Do you know what? I think th- well, this is the thing about the clock is that y- it's kind of there ticking, and you have to be a little bit more honest. And even then I'll be aware of is this a clock-worthy pause or is this-

20:37 Like where do you sit well.

20:38 ... is this actually a justifiable use of time? And so just having that there and that punishment there, um, is pretty significant. What are your most common debates about whether it is or is not a clock-worthy pause?

20:50 Um, you filling up a glass of water can be on there. Um, just like, or girlfriends come in-

20:56 Mm.

20:56 ... you know what I mean? It's like little things like that but I'll tend to, I'll tend to pause the clock, yeah.

21:00 Mm.

21:01 So if you're, like, if you're writing-

21:02 Mm-hmm.

21:02 ... and you're like, oh, I need to, like, go somewhere to get this reference for this thing and-

21:07 Yeah. That would be fine, but then if I, let's say for example I need to go t- uh, to a tweet to find the specific thing, that's fine.

21:15 Uh-oh.

21:15 But if I then go on the newsfeed and start scrolling, clock has to change.

21:18 So that's-

21:18 See, that's where it works.

21:19 ... that's a bit-

21:19 This is why the clock works really effectively, whereas other techniques it wouldn't work because (laughs) because-

21:26 This is great, George.

21:28 It is a good hack.

21:28 The- the other thing that it separates out is if people think, oh, it's a, it's a speed thing or it's an efficiency thing, I need to be able to, like, work faster or write faster or whatever versus it's just a not spending enough time on task thing.

21:44 Mm. Yeah, that's a big point, that you don't need to probably be more efficient or more effective or better or whatever. You just haven't realized how little time you're spending doing the thing you're supposed to be doing.

22:00 I- (sighs) Yeah.

22:01 This isn't a hack, but it's related to this. I have an app on my laptop that, um, is like a blocker that every time I go to open email it goes, "Uh-uh."

22:11 Cold turkey.

22:11 It's not cold turkey, it's similar to that, but it- especially if there's someone else in the room and they hear how often it goes, "Uh-uh," and then you tell them why it's going, "Uh-uh," you just seem like a baby. (laughs)

22:23 (laughs)

22:23 (laughs)

22:25 So like anytime I try to open email, iMessage, WhatsApp, like, "Uh-uh," and you just- just makes you feel so stupid.

Jonny 22:32 No, I'm joking. All right, Johnny. L- are we on lessons? Whatever you want. Whatever I want?

22:36 Take, take whatever you want.

22:37 All right, well, I'll give a- I'll do a hack that's similar to one we've just been speaking about which is brick for iPhone. You guys seen that?

22:45 It's a near field communication thing that you got to tap to unlock your phone.

22:49 Mm-hmm. Tried it?

22:51 I never knew what NFC stands for, Chris. That's a lovely little bonus.

22:55 There's a hack within a hack. (laughs)

22:58 (laughs)

22:58 I didn't expect you to, like, describe it like that. It's a very-

23:01 It's accurate.

23:02 Yeah.

23:02 It's very detailed as well.

23:03 You gotta tap, tap a thing to get your phone to work. Yeah. So you, you s- you sche- set like a schedule on your phone, like we've all tried, all these like app blocking things that you-

23:12 Mm-hmm.

23:12 ... that you can just ultimately delete the app. You have to, like, go to where the thing is in the house, press unbrick and then tap the NFC- (laughs)

23:22 (laughs)

23:22 ... device. It's just been the most effective thing, so as y- I've had a year of like block- trying to block myself from having to press the chess clock.

23:31 Mm-hmm.

23:32 Um, and it's been the most effective thing because having to, like, stand up, go into another room, press unbrick, go, clip, and then look at Instagram, just not gonna happen.

23:45 'Cause I'm still using Opal from two years ago-

23:48 Oh, yeah, from two years ago.

23:48 ... when you suggested it.

23:49 I'm on a constant wrestle. I just- it's just not quite as like- 'cause you c- you can get round that, right? Yeah. Yeah, and there's nothing more I think humiliating (laughs) than getting around Op- I've seen people do that.

24:00 In front of others.

24:01 Yeah.

24:01 Let me just show you this thing on YouTu- oh, wait, no. Hang on, can you wait for 27 seconds please?

24:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:08 ... pause session.

George 24:09 Did you ever get the, the box, Johnny?

Jonny 24:11 No.

George 24:12 I think it was a Jordan-

Jonny 24:13 A Jordan. Yeah.

George 24:13 ... Jordan Original, wasn't it?

Jonny 24:14 But that's putting your phone in a box.

Chris Williamson 24:15 George and Kimberly have got a timed box-

Jonny 24:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:19 ... that you locked both your phones in for a weekend.

Jonny 24:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did it on a, um, a Saturday, put the phones away in the box for the entire day. It w- it was, it was fun. You get incredibly bored. Um, and I just replaced it with a Moleskine notepad. It was great, you know.

Chris Williamson 24:36 He walks around-

Jonny 24:37 Just drawers, just drawers of mug notes.

Chris Williamson 24:37 He walks around with a fucking notepad.

Jonny 24:38 Yeah. Um, not to, like, take over yours-

Chris Williamson 24:41 He thinks he's, he thinks he's Ernest Hemingway.

Jonny 24:42 ... no. But that is a, one of the best hacks. I didn't even have this one written down, which is on the phone topic. Um, getting a Moleskine pocket notepad so it can go in your pocket. 'Cause what's interesting is, this thing here, this thing right here, (phone chimes) this device, it's always whispering to you. Even now it's saying, "Scroll, go on this, scroll on that."

George 25:01 It's, yeah, "Go, go on the, the Gmail and make the sound," right?

Jonny 25:04 But not, not, George, not if it's bricked.

Chris Williamson 25:06 Not if it's bricked.

Jonny 25:07 But e- even, even then it whispers. You can't access it, but it's still whispering.

George 25:10 Well, no. It, it's, it's whispering. Okay.

Jonny 25:10 It's still telling you to do it 'cause you have the association, you have the Pavlovian conditioning with this device. What's interesting, as soon as you have the Moleskine notepad that you walk around with, is that you then...

George 25:21 You should check that.

Jonny 25:22 That then begins to whisper to you. So when you take it out and you go for a walk, it's whispering, "Oh, check page three, that thing that you wrote down the other day." So having a, a Moleskine notepad is, um, quite a hack.

George 25:30 Can you sit with your thoughts?

Jonny 25:32 You could do by, "I'm going for a walk," and then I can capture my thoughts. So I can sit with my thoughts and then I can capture the best ones.

Chris Williamson 25:37 Can you think about a potential, just top of your head, potential problem with going from digital to analog? Uh, y- you could have written this down in your phone. Obviously, lots of issues, phone's very distracting, all the rest of it. Can you think of perhaps an issue of, of, of, of having a single hard copy-

Jonny 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:58 ... of, of your most important thoughts?

Jonny 26:00 I suppose losing it might.

Chris Williamson 26:02 Well, yeah, I mean 'cause-

Jonny 26:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:04 It's interesting you say that. It's a very, that's a very sort of fortuitous prediction, um, because we went to Dean's Italian-

Jonny 26:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:12 ... and as you were extolling the virtues of your Moleskine notepad, you left it at Dean's Italian and they'd binned it. (laughs) So he lost all of his biggest thoughts. (laughs)

Jonny 26:23 So, hold on. Uh, so-

Chris Williamson 26:26 How does that feel?

Jonny 26:26 ... I saw Chrissie's countermove coming about two weeks-

Chris Williamson 26:30 (laughs)

Jonny 26:31 ... weeks prior, and I purposely held off, and I'll explain why. That wasn't a Moleskine notepad.

Chris Williamson 26:37 (laughs)

Jonny 26:37 That was like a, like a real shit notepad, so I think the waiter's just binned it 'cause it was nothing. Well, that's why I upgraded now to a Moleskine notepad, because if you see a Moleskine notepad, nobody's gonna-

Chris Williamson 26:46 Why do you keep saying Moleskine notepad?

Jonny 26:47 Because, because of this reason, 'cause if you get-

George 26:48 (laughs) Because that's the hack.

Jonny 26:48 ... if you get a regular notepad-

Chris Williamson 26:49 'Cause it's made of mole skin.

Jonny 26:50 I actually don't know.

George 26:51 It's a brand, isn't it?

Jonny 26:51 Yeah, I don't know. It's a brand.

George 26:53 Right, so your, your argument is that- I'm really hoping that George is bringing out, like, a, "This is why I have a carbon copy, uh, system-" "... in the Lite Pocket."

Chris Williamson 26:59 This is James Smith taking down the creatine industry, isn't it?

Jonny 27:02 Yeah.

George 27:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Jonny 27:03 So you're hoping that waiters understand the value of a Moleskine notebook-

Chris Williamson 27:07 We'll see. We'll see.

Jonny 27:07 ... versus just a- I'm afraid to tell you, I don't think that-

George 27:10 We'll see.

Jonny 27:10 ... I don't think they do either. Okay.

George 27:12 But the poi- the point, I think the point of these sorts of things is, is I remember, like, you bought a Light phone, didn't you?

Jonny 27:18 Mm-hmm.

George 27:19 Years ago.

Jonny 27:19 Mm-hmm.

George 27:19 There was, like, that movement of buy, like, a Nokia 3210 and live your life off that, but then you need Google Maps and you need Uber and you need, you need to send someone a message or you need to ring someone. I- it's, having those features is useful. If your phone's in a box, you can't use your notepad to book an Uber. But if you just remove the things that whisper to you and to, to get them active again you have to get up and go into the other room-

Chris Williamson 27:43 It's friction.

George 27:44 It's like not having-

Chris Williamson 27:44 It's just increasing friction, eh?

George 27:45 ... food in, in the, in the house that, to prevent you from-

Chris Williamson 27:47 I do, I do remember I had a, a lock box thing, timed lock box, not too dissimilar to yours, but it had a plastic see-through cover. And there was little holes cut out of it so you could actually use the phone-

George 28:01 Oh, you could... Oh, right.

Chris Williamson 28:01 You could swipe through different things on the phone and kind of use it.

George 28:04 Right.

Chris Williamson 28:05 But, um, yeah, didn't you tell me that if you lock your phone in the box, you have to ring customer service?

Jonny 28:11 (laughs) If you can't get it out, you basically-

Chris Williamson 28:14 Smash it with a hammer-

Jonny 28:15 You, you're gonna smash it-

Chris Williamson 28:16 ... or ring customer service?

Jonny 28:16 ... or ring customer service, 'cause you can accidentally put it on for 30 days rather than 30 hours.

Chris Williamson 28:20 (laughs)

Jonny 28:20 I'm sure, I'm sure somebody's done. It's like the -

George 28:23 Yeah, Mike smashed his with a hammer.

Jonny 28:25 Really?

George 28:26 So, yeah.

Jonny 28:27 That's on, like, a-

Chris Williamson 28:28 Oh, damn.

George 28:28 He's just in his, in his room with-

Jonny 28:29 It's like a Netflix thing, isn't it? There's, like, a family and they all put their phones in the box and the kid ends up, like, smashing the box.

Chris Williamson 28:35 I haven't seen that.

Jonny 28:35 Like coded bias or something.

Chris Williamson 28:37 All right, so Brick.

Jonny 28:38 Brick.

Chris Williamson 28:38 All right.

Jonny 28:39 An NFC device.

Chris Williamson 28:41 For, it's Opal with a, Opal with a physical thing in it.

Jonny 28:44 All right. (air whooshing)

Chris Williamson 28:45 In other news, you've probably heard me talk about LMNT before, and that's because I am frankly (laughs) dependent on it, uh, and it's how I've started my day every single morning. This is the best tasting hydration drink on the market. You might think, "Why do I need to be more hydrated?" Because proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water, it's having sufficient electrolytes to allow your body to use those fluids. Each grab-and-go stick pack is a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. It's got no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, or any other junk. This plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating your appetite, and curbing cravings. This orange flavor in a cold glass of water is a sweet, salty, orangey nectar, and you will genuinely feel the difference when you take it versus when you don't, which is why I keep going on about it. Best of all, there's a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. Buy it, use it all, and if you don't like it for any reason, they give you your money back, and you don't even have to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

Chris Williamson 29:59 (air whooshing) Seth, what you got?

George 30:01 Back around to me. Uh, I really underestimated the potency of the attribution error and-

Yusef 30:11 ... cognitive dissonance. So what I mean by that is... Keep me right on this, Chris, because I feel like th- this is your absolute wheelhouse. That we over-attribute other people's behavior to their character-

Chris Williamson 30:23 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 30:24 ... but we under-attribute it to situational factors.

Chris Williamson 30:27 Right.

Yusef 30:27 But then for ourselves, we over-attribute situational factors and we under-attribute a character 'cause it's too painful for us to just be like, "Oh, well, it's just 'cause I'm a, just a shit person," rather than, like, "Oh, it was 'cause the bus was late and 'cause whatever." But easy to be like, "Oh, th- they, they were just a dick," and it can't have been that they were sleep-deprived or looking after their toddler or whatever else.

Chris Williamson 30:50 The classic, the classic one is, "I cut that guy off because I'm late for work. He cut me off because he's a bad driver."

Yusef 30:56 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Great example. So the, the broader lesson that I'm seeing here is, um, that people are a lot more emotionally driven than, uh, th- than I think I've really given it credit for. Like, outside of our extremely autistic bubble, um, there is, uh, there's so much more cognitive dissonance that drives people's behavior and thoughts and actions. And so, you know this thing of, like, people buy with emotion and they justify with logic? It's, it's not just buying behavior. It's, it's everything. And the moment you start spotting this, you see it everywhere. So y- everyone listening must have had an experience where you're speaking to someone who has a particular, um, stance, or gripe, or position, or something. Could be on politics, could be on a relationship issue, whatever. And the more you start to kind of get into it, you realize that they're just rotating their complaints, or, like, they, they're moving goalposts but still being pissed off about something. Until you're like, "Ah, actually, like, the pissed off comes first and then the justification-"

Chris Williamson 32:06 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 32:07 "... comes later."

Chris Williamson 32:07 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 32:08 Um, so it's that people don't actually want to get to this kind of rational, objective truth. Um, they just wanna feel safe, and they just want a hug and just want to be heard. Um, and so I don't know who said this, but it's a quote of, "We only see what we want to see. We only hear what we want to hear," and our belief system is like a mirror that only shows us what we believe. So the lens or the glasses that we see the world through tell us more about the color of the lens than they do about the world out there.

Chris Williamson 32:42 I certainly, this year, since trying to do more emotions work, have sort of come to the realize, or the, the belief that most of the thoughts that we have are bottom-up, not top-down. You feel a thing-

Yusef 32:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:53 ... and then you come up with a story that explains why you feel the thing, as opposed to-

Yusef 32:57 And-

Chris Williamson 32:58 ... you're accurately determining that, that story from, from your brain downward.

Yusef 33:04 It's very convincing as well 'cause that, it's what the brain does. Like, it's a sense-making machine, isn't it? So the body goes, "Oh, I'm anxious. Oh, my heart's going whatever," and then it, the brain has to quickly be like, "Oh, well, that's because this," and it just, like, pulls together random things and thoughts to create this, like, to weave this narrative, and then it holds onto that, and it become, it identifies with it. It's such a, like, such a weird process, but it just is happening in the background all the time.

Chris Williamson 33:28 How have you changed the way that you operate, or h- have you applied this in any way? Is it just an insight that's interesting philosophically?

Yusef 33:36 We... Jus- just realizing that, um, there's, there's no point in trying to argue with what someone's saying or trying to, like, convince someone on the head level and instead just, like, just give them a hug and l- or, like, you know, metaphorically, and speak to the heart, and, um, realize that it's the, that, that's the stuff to address first before you get into any of the, um, what someone... So s- rather, rather than listening to what someone is saying, listen to what they're feeling.

Chris Williamson 34:04 Th- there's also this, uh, like, side argument that people can go down when they touch that, which is that, "Oh, uh, people are irrational. They, uh, they're not logical. They're driven by emotions." And there's this great, uh, account, uh, Chris Larkin, and he has this great line which is, um, "Emotions are logical. You're just bad at logic." And when you actually get deeper to a lay- a layer of, well, why is that anger there, or why is that anxiety there, we almost, we start with logic, and then people kind of deny the emotional level. But then even beneath that, there's this kind of logic for all of those emotions that exist that we, we don't even get down to the basement, and then we don't even get to the point where you realize there's a basement in the basement.

Yusef 34:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:48 All right, my next one-

Yusef 34:49 Yeah, it's-

Chris Williamson 34:51 My next one. The surfed is good. Uh, Owala bottles. You seen one of these?

Yusef 34:56 Owala bottles. No.

Chris Williamson 34:57 Seen one of these before? You've seen one of these around the house . I have this. So, um, everybody needs some form of water receptacle, and, uh, I've cycled through quite a bit. I've cycled through Yeti.

Yusef 35:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:11 Uh, I've used steel protein shakers, which are good for the protein thing. Um, the reason that I like these Owala bottles, this is, that's Mark Zuckerberg's Ranch's logo for you there. Uh, the reason that I like these ones, they're insulated. Uh, they have got, this size in particular's got a good capacity. It's nearly 700, 700 ml. Uh, this spout thing here allows you to sip it like a straw but also drink from it. This can hook through something and... Hold on. And it'll keep stuff cold for a few hours. It doesn't look too... It comes in every different color that you can imagine. You can customize the whole thing, and if you want to get something printed on for yourself or for somebody else that's a logo, or a word, or something etched in it, you can. And it's 20 bucks for one of these. They're really cheap. Uh, they're, they're fantastic, and I, I adore mine and I use it all the time, and I think everyone... Eh, yeah, pretty much everybody from the team's got one. And-It's very satisfying. It's very satisfying.

Jonny 36:16 It looks nice. Is it metal?

Chris Williamson 36:18 Yeah, whole thing.

Jonny 36:20 Yeah. Yeah, it feels nice. Johnny, have you... Have you watched The Office?

Chris Williamson 36:23 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 36:23 You know the Christmas special where David Brent's, like, a salesman, and he's going around on the road, and he's go- he's, like, doing the water-off, and he's giving the whole pitch? It was literally like that, and I was just expecting you to go at the end, "So, who does your tampons?"

Chris Williamson 36:35 (laughs)

Jonny 36:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:38 Well-

Jonny 36:39 Nice.

Chris Williamson 36:39 ... you know who does your hydration? There we go.

Jonny 36:41 I thought you were... I thought everything was Yeti. You moved away from that. What a- why are they better than Yeti?

Chris Williamson 36:47 Uh, the sip spout, the l- magic straw or whatever they call it, is really satisfying.

Jonny 36:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:53 It does make me feel a bit like a baby, um, which-

Jonny 36:56 That's okay though.

Chris Williamson 36:57 Yeah, is okay. Uh, Yeti's good. They probably have better insulation. It'll keep stuff colder for longer maybe. Uh, but the sizes of Yeti are a little bit more cumbersome. Can only go from one that's definitely not big enough to one that's almost certainly too big. And the smallest Owala size, which is this one, is really good, and fits in the side of most backpacks and...

Jonny 37:22 It's about a liter.

Chris Williamson 37:23 No, I think it's seven... just over 700, which is, for a single 700... If you get over a liter, if you get e- even over close to what, a liter, it- it... You probably don't wanna drink the same thing for that long. Maybe you wanna-

Jonny 37:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:35 ... cycle it out. It gets heavy. But 500 mL is nowhere near enough, so it's the optimal size. This is currently, uh... Come back next year when I disagree-

Jonny 37:43 In fact-

Chris Williamson 37:43 ... with myself (laughs) .

Jonny 37:44 ... when I have a different phone blocking method than you-

Chris Williamson 37:46 (laughs)

Jonny 37:46 ... have a different water bottle. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:49 (laughs)

Jonny 37:50 But I'll still be recommending Waking Up.

Chris Williamson 37:52 Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, anyway.

Yusef 37:54 Well, this- this was Johnny's razor that we left last year's with, which was, um, come back to me in six months after you've been using this hack.

Chris Williamson 38:01 It's the 90-day-

Yusef 38:02 And then I'll-

Chris Williamson 38:02 ... 90-day rule.

Yusef 38:03 ... leave you.

Chris Williamson 38:03 Yeah, well, I guess people won't even know about that. We did 20, 30 episodes of life hacks-

Jonny 38:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:08 ... back in the day, which is still, like, a non-insignificant amount of this entire podcast inventory. And one of the most important ones was that, after a while, we realized someone would come in all full of beans because this brand new life hack that they were in love with was like, "Oh, I- I- I got... I must, I must tell you about a way to get YouTube Premium for free by getting it through the Argentinian VPN service."

Jonny 38:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:32 And, uh-

Jonny 38:32 That one makes

38:33 me laughing ]

Chris Williamson 38:33 ... then you have to wait 90 days to find out that you get chargeback for fraud online, or-

Jonny 38:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:38 ... whatever it might be. I'll never forget, Eric Jo- Eric Jorgenson taught us about that one where, if you try and cancel your Zoom subscription, they immediately offer you a 30% discount. Um, stuff like that. But th- th- there's some second-order consequence. "Oh yeah, but it's downgraded you. You get ads on your own Zoom calls now or something."

Jonny 38:56 Yeah, yeah.

38:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:56 Uh, but yeah. Anyway, 90 days. You... If a friend comes to you... This is a meta life hack. Friend comes to you and says, "Mate, you've gotta try this new, this phone-blocking method." And you say, "Okay, how long, how long have you been doing it? You are two weeks?" He go, "Okay, come back to me in another two months-

Jonny 39:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:14 ... and we'll see if you're still using it or if it's broken your life."

Jonny 39:16 The... I h- I've had people complain about the life hacks episodes because they watch them in order, and they would get, like-

Chris Williamson 39:21 (laughs)

Jonny 39:21 ... four or five episodes in on the thing that they'd been doing.

Chris Williamson 39:24 You've contradicted yourself.

Jonny 39:25 We were like, "No, no, never ever do that. Do this instead." And that's just the cycle.

Chris Williamson 39:29 But the issue is the, the, the pace at which we drip-fed life hacks episodes when we started was appropriate. It was every couple of months-

Jonny 39:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:37 ... every three months or so for four years. If you just watch them like binge-finishing Game of Thrones, you do speed-run through our development-

Jonny 39:49 Yep, yep.

Chris Williamson 39:50 ... uh, which is probably quite dangerous.

Yusef 39:51 Just don't listen in reverse chronological order, 'cause you'll mess yourself up.

Chris Williamson 39:55 Oh, God.

Jonny 39:55 Maybe that's the right way to do it though.

Chris Williamson 39:57 Start at the end?

Jonny 39:58 It'll be... The stuff at the b- in the first episode is p- probably the things we're all still doing.

Chris Williamson 40:02 It is sleep-with-your-phone-outside-your-bedroom.

Chris Williamson 40:03 All right, George.

Jonny 40:05 Uh, mine's more of a, a lesson or a two-part lesson. So, one of the lessons this year was... So, when I originally, uh, wrote the essay on high agency, one of the bits of feedback that I got, and other people, uh, gave me as well, is that the, the concept's not necessarily new, but it gives you, um, gives you a bit of language to refer to a thing. And I've had that for a while with that term, and I was like... I then went one level above that where it's like, "Hold on, I don't have a bit of language to refer to when I need a bit of language to refer to something." So, um, I told a friend, Henrik, that, and he gave me from Scott Alexander this, uh, he calls it a idea handle, which is when you create a term or a name for a thing, and then you can kind of pick it up in the world. And a big thing for me this year has been, like, around language, which I'll... um, but even where Yusuf is right now, which is beautiful, like, side tangent here. In Malaysia, they don't use plural. So, rather than say tables, they s- they say table table. So you just realize, when you study language, so much comes back to you. But one bit of language I've been kinda playing around with is... We've spoken about this before around forgetting things and how much we forget, and I found this story, um, about a seven-year-old boy called Henry. And one day he's out and about playing in his, uh, drive in Connecticut, and a cyclist doesn't see him and clatters into him, knocks him unconscious. And he wakes up, and the next few days he starts having a few seizures. And by the age of 25 he's having 25 seizures per day, and this is in the '50s. So he's trying everything to get rid of this condition. So he goes and signs up for experimental brain lobotomy surgery. And he wakes up from the operation and he has some good news, some bad news, and some awful news. So the good news is that the brain surgery has basically cured his condition entirely, so he has no more epileptic fits. The bad news is that he won't remember the good news, 'cause the awful news is it's destroyed his ability to form new memories. So he lives from the age of about 25 to 85 not forming any new memories. So every day his psychiatrist would meet him and get to know Henry well over the years, and each day he would meet his psychiatrist for the first time.... but there was this specific bit of detail about Henry, which I call Henry's mirror, which is every morning he would wake up, he would look at himself in the mirror, and he'd be shocked and perplexed at how old he was. 'Cause in his head he was always 25. And I kind of call this idea Henry's mirror, which is the problem with amnesia is not only do you forget, it's that you have amnesia of your amnesia. And it's this idea that all of us right now have some bit of Henry's mirror in us. We don't even realize it because by definition you've forgotten it. So the classic example I use is, okay, Johnny, can you think of a- a clear sentence or thought from yesterday? Bearing in mind you had 10 to 70,000 on average. Can you think of one?

Chris Williamson 43:03 No.

Jonny 43:03 But when you're in these overthinking spirals, it feels, it feels so real, feels so tangible. And then it just fades away and all you have is a face that's getting older in the mirror each day.

Chris Williamson 43:16 Uh, it's very apocalyptic.

Jonny 43:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:20 Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every day for years now because it's the simplest way that I've found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition. And that is why I've partnered with them. One scoop gives you 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in a single drink. And now they've taken it even further with AG1 Next Gen, the same one scoop once a day ritual, but this time backed by four clinical trials. In those trials it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by ten times, even in people who already eat well. They've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation. And it's still NSF certified for sport, meaning that even Olympic athletes can use it. Plus, if I ever actually found something better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it every day. And if you're on the fence, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. Buy it and try it. And if you don't love it, they will give you your money back. Right now you can get a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2, free AG1 travel packs, a welcome kit, and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. How has this changed the way that you show up, uh, if at all?

Jonny 44:42 I think the- the big thing I've tried to change more, first off when it comes to overthinking, trying to realize that as a thought loop's happening, trying to stare in that mirror for a second and go, "Well, hold on. How long, how many times does this happen?" 'Cause this could be the 60,000th time this thought has happened, but I can't remember anything from yesterday, is one thing. The second thing is just very basic level, just trying to document more, take more photos, take more videos, journal more, and without realizing it's such a- a- an asset that's going to compound further and further in the future. Even like today, to be honest with you, it's fun that we get this for like 20 years from now we can go, "Oh, what we was doing that day."

Chris Williamson 45:21 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 45:21 But otherwise, like the- the average person, the- the memory just goes and then your life just goes.

Chris Williamson 45:30 Yeah.

Jonny 45:31 If you use-

Chris Williamson 45:31 Merry Christmas.

Jonny 45:32 (laughs)

45:32 Merry Christmas. If you use day one for journaling. Do you guys use journ- day one?

Chris Williamson 45:35 No. You're at such a day one. I- I do use day one, and I've used it more this year than any other year.

Jonny 45:39 It just gives you, every time you go to make a journal entry it's like, "On this day, a year ago, two years ago, eight years ago, ten years ago-"

Chris Williamson 45:45 How many entries have you got on day one now?

Jonny 45:47 I've been using it for like I think 15 years.

45:49 Wow.

Chris Williamson 45:49 But how frequently are you doing it?

Jonny 45:51 I try and do it every day.

Chris Williamson 45:52 Really?

Jonny 45:52 Yeah. Just like contents of mind, and a picture every day.

45:55 What's been the-

Chris Williamson 45:56 Really? So you've got thousands of entries?

Jonny 45:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:58 Holy f-

Jonny 45:58 But the thi- the main takeaway from all of it is like, it's just the same stuff. It's just the same...

Chris Williamson 46:04 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 46:04 The same worries, the same things you're excited about, the same feelings.

Chris Williamson 46:07 But I think-

Jonny 46:08 10 years ago you're like, "What's the point?"

Chris Williamson 46:10 Well, we assume that the Henry's mirror thing is- is true inasmuch as all of the problems that we're dealing with now feel fresh to us.

Jonny 46:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:20 But when you look across the expanse of time, in the same ways you've got the same feet that you did 10 years ago, your psychological construction is made up of the same biases and fundamental fears, which I think, Youcef, to your sort of emotions point, is why that's such a powerful way to communicate with people. And also (laughs) the, uh, it's why I've been trying to dig deeper, sort of even deeper than just talk therapy gets you to by unpacking, okay, and where are these patterns coming from and what- what is this- what are the emotions I'm unprepared to feel? Because I think that is really the only way to get to the bottom of the Etch A Sketch and to fully, fully shake it loose.

Yusef 47:01 Well, you- you're right that you're the same, well, you're obviously the same person that you were 15, 20 years ago. But last year we- we talked about this where you- you think that your journal, especially in Johnny's case we've got 15 years of day one journals, is going to be useless in like the very early stages. You're, "Oh, what does my 19-year-old idiot self know about how I should be conducting my life now?" And then you look back on it and it's just exactly the same stuff that, you know, like, "Oh God." And it's like life is a spiral curriculum, and it'll keep spanking you with the same lessons until you finally absorb it, change what you're doing, and then the world around you will stop like hitting you with that same lesson.

Chris Williamson 47:45 Well, what's- what's that? Is it, uh, Jung, uh, "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate."

Jonny 47:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:53 The- the- the-

Yusef 47:54 Mm-hmm. And we- we see that often with other people more clearly. You know, when you see someone who's always running into the same like style of problem and you're like, "Oh yeah, it's 'cause they're creating it."

Jonny 48:03 So one, um, one hack for this, it was actually one of mine for today, but whilst it's on the topic, is kind of what I call like this, uh, time technique. So let's say for example you're going through insert difficult, uh, moment. So let's say, I don't know, you're going through a breakup or you're having, in your case Johnny maybe, a difficult issue with a member of staff or, um, uh-

Chris Williamson 48:27 What are you trying to say about my members of staff?

Jonny 48:29 No, you know what I mean. Like running a business you're gonna- you're gonna have those... (laughs) Don't sue me.

Chris Williamson 48:33 (laughs)

Jonny 48:33 Um, you're gonna have those issues. So what I kind of recommend or I've been doing this for about three or four years, which is I'll-... think of, okay, so let's say it's a, uh, a work conflict, right? I will then go, "Okay, can I think of two or three times that are the most similar throughout my entire career like this?" So I kind of write down those events and write down the date. And then I ask, "Okay, if I could, uh, go back in time now with all the knowledge that I have now, and if I could turn this event into like one of the best things that ever happened to me, what would be the three actions that I would take?" I go, "Okay." And then next to the date I write, "Okay, well what would be the worst three things that I could do with all the knowledge that I have now?" 'Cause you- you have this detachment from the event, and you have like an extra, uh, 20 IQ points. And then once you've done that, just scribble out the date and replace it with today's date and pretend it's you from the future that's- that's come back. And that's such a- an effective way, 'cause when you d- even though we do forget so much of the past, the real stuff that you do remember are the most emotional events. And even now you can look back at things five to 10 years ago and have such, um, detachment.

Chris Williamson 49:42 Well, the patterns are the same, which means that the solutions will probably still work. If you can think of what you would have done previously in a situation that's analogous, and now you in the present are facing something similar. Yeah, i- i- i- it is-

Yusef 49:57 I love this, George. 'Cause that- that's what emotions are supposed to do, aren't they? They're supposed to be a navigation tool as feedback for, "Oh, you took a wrong step there." Like, "Here's how to change in future." But we often don't and then keep experiencing the emotion.

Chris Williamson 50:11 Yeah, the- the universe just continues to shout louder until you hear the lesson. The goal is to get before it's screaming in your face, the goal is to try and jump- jump that a little bit sooner.

Chris Williamson 50:21 All right, Johnny, what you got?

Jonny 50:22 Johnny.

Chris Williamson 50:23 Johnny.

Jonny 50:24 Uh, I have a lesson which ties in beautifully with this.

Chris Williamson 50:27 Wonderful.

Jonny 50:28 Because one of the problems with having 15 years of journals is I can s- I watch, I- I can see this, like, journey of me chasing all these little things. So like I wanted to bench 100 kilos, and then I wanted abs, and then I wanted a 2:1 degree, and I wanted a job, and then I wanted Propane to do well, and I wanted certain revenue levels. And it's always just this next thing. You can see it happening through the journal entries.

Chris Williamson 50:58 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 50:59 And you realize changes nothing. Like, the s- in those same entries there's still worries, problems, the same worries, the same problems. And you watch you through time achieve these things, and you're still worried about the same stuff, and that creates this feeling of like, what is the point of doing-

Chris Williamson 51:18 Abundancy, yeah.

Jonny 51:18 ... anything? But the- the thing that you realize woven into all of it is the thing that's changing the whole time, is the- like the traits that are- that are th- you and y- how your character is changing because chasing those things that are difficult require, like delayed gratification, they require like dealing with diffic- difficult emotions, they require like th- all of the skills that you have to build and all of the traits you have to build to build a business to a certain level, or to diet for the le- the leanest human being, whatever it might be. You- you change. So it's this idea that like the goals, I don't think they really compound. They kind of do, but they- like the dopamine you get from that doesn't compound, but the traits that you get from chasing the hard things is the compounding.

Chris Williamson 52:03 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 52:04 And that immedi- that realization immediately flipped back to like it's absolutely worth like listing out loads of really big difficult goals and chasing them, because the- I don't think there's any faster way to change who you are-

Chris Williamson 52:17 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 52:18 ... to improve your... And I- it's something that like being a- my daughter's now of an age where like she's- she's gone from being a baby to being like a little person. And I'm like, "Oh God, like there's a proper like responsibility here to be the example." And I think the best way to become the example is chase the difficult things that require the traits to- to come as part of the journey.

Yusef 52:43 I love the, um, uh, what your takeaway from that, Johnny. 'Cause some people would be really nihilistic about that. They'd be like, "Oh, well, there's no point chasing anything."

Jonny 52:52 That's the first feeling. That's the first feeling. The first feeling is like, "Oh, what's the point?"

Yusef 52:57 Yeah. Whereas you're like, "Actually, this is a way to play the game without having to be fully sucked into the game."

Chris Williamson 53:05 Well, you still need to be conned by the game into believing that the game is what you want to play. Like this wouldn't work, you would not be able to get yourself to do the hard thing if you didn't think that the other side of the goal of the hard thing was completion, satisfaction, self-actualization, rest.

Jonny 53:22 But I think people think, "Oh, when I get a million turnover, I'll be happy."

Chris Williamson 53:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 53:27 That's not true. But when you get a million turnover, the person-

Chris Williamson 53:31 The person that you've become.

Jonny 53:32 Yeah. And so you just change the thing, the goal is kind of like the side quest to the thing.

Chris Williamson 53:37 But that's the-

Jonny 53:37 If I said like become a better person.

Chris Williamson 53:37 ... th- the goal is the thin end of the wedge. The goal is what gets you through the door.

Jonny 53:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:41 Because you're not thinking, "I can't wait to feel dissatisfied in this goal, but happy about the person I've become."

Jonny 53:47 Yeah, like you achieve the goal, you get the little like, it's the James Smith thing, like, "Oh it always feels- it feels exactly the same."

Chris Williamson 53:52 Yep. Then you're dissatisfied that you're a better person.

Jonny 53:54 But you've changed. The thing is you can't- you don't know that at the time. And the only way you can know that is those- is like being able to see what you two years ago, how you two years ago dealt with a challenge or dealt with something.

Chris Williamson 54:05 I think this is why progress feels so good and losing ground feels so bad, that this- this is great for you, somebody who's been on a relatively linear journey of getting better, more mindful, more peaceful, more successful, more capable, more resilient, whatever. But if the thing happens in the opposite direction, whether you've achieved your goals or not, even maybe worse if you've achieved your goals. You say, "I got the thing I thought I wanted. It turns out that just as you, s- I was a bit disappointed with how much that didn't satisfy me. Oh fuck."... and I'm now a worse person in some sort of a way. You know, you're a boxer who gets the Olympic gold medali- uh, gold medal, uh, gets fucking, uh, head injury, uh, and now has to deal with that. Also, I'm unhappy about the fact that the gold medal didn't make me as happy as I thought it would, and I'm now worse off.

Yusef 55:05 Well, and Henry's mirror, like you've wasted time in the process.

Chris Williamson 55:10 Hm. Is that true-

Yusef 55:11 Like, you're now 85.

Jonny 55:13 (laughs) Just because of the brain injury now?

Chris Williamson 55:14 Yes, yeah, the point being-

Jonny 55:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:15 ... that y- the saving grace you have around goals being more unsatisfying than people think they're going to be-

Jonny 55:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:22 ... is that you have transformed yourself into something which is more evergreen than the goal and the brief drip of dopamine-

Jonny 55:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:30 ... which is all internal anyway, uh, than, than that is. You've got something more than that, and hooray. But imagine if you didn't get the progress.

Jonny 55:37 So I, I'd argue that aside from (laughs) becoming, like, severely injured or disabled or some- in the process, dealing with the hard things is where the true changes happen. So at the t- you can go through the, the thing that feels like, "I'm going backwards."

Chris Williamson 55:51 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 55:51 And at the time, yes, you're like objectively going backwards by the measure, by the revenue level, the body fat, whatever, the strength level, but the traits are still improving.

Chris Williamson 56:00 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jonny 56:01 Because I think anything extremely difficult-

Chris Williamson 56:02 What about if you run out of motivation? What about if you dumped all of your, uh, enthusiasm into something that it turned out wasn't, wasn't right?

Jonny 56:10 That's assuming that that's the end point. That might just be halfway.

Chris Williamson 56:14 Your, your, your position here is that given a long enough time horizon you're gonna track and trend up and to the right?

Jonny 56:20 Yeah. Like, uh, if you look at-

Chris Williamson 56:21 (laughs)

Jonny 56:21 ... look at your journey to here as an example.

Chris Williamson 56:24 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 56:24 Like, you sat on this sofa for how many... five years ago? Six?

Chris Williamson 56:29 Eight.

Jonny 56:30 Eight years ago.

Chris Williamson 56:31 Eight years ago.

Jonny 56:32 Like, if you watch the recordings back-

Chris Williamson 56:35 I do.

Jonny 56:35 ... you seem completely different.

Chris Williamson 56:38 Very much so.

Jonny 56:38 And everybody would be like, "Oh, Chris is, you know... W- what a, what a fantastic existence Chris must have, like, being this famous podcaster."

Chris Williamson 56:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 56:45 But they're... that's really the side quest to the, the development as a, as a result of it.

Chris Williamson 56:50 It's a good point. I mean, what was the first one that we filmed? Love Island. Love Island. What's It Really Like To Live On Love Island?

Jonny 56:56 Oh, God, yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:57 Episode 17? 14. Episode 14. So, uh, yeah, we were sat on a different couch but the same living room.

Jonny 57:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:06 Uh, in May... April or May of 2018. Uh, different couch. Definitely a different couch.

Jonny 57:14 Yeah, I remember getting this couch.

Chris Williamson 57:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a leather couch.

Jonny 57:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:16 Um, and, uh, yeah, you're right. You're right that, that i- it's, "I want to be in a different country. I want to not have to stay awake till 3:00 in the morning running nightclubs. I want s- people that I respect to know me and respect my work. I want..." Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And then you go, "Okay, uh, at each of those junctures they were satisfying, but the satisfaction was short-lived." What was longer lived was the person you became.

Jonny 57:39 So, do you think if you'd picked... So, the goal you had was... I don't know, it wasn't like explicitly the goal at the time, but the goal was like, "I'm gonna build a top 10 podcast in the world."

Chris Williamson 57:46 No, it was not that. Yeah.

Jonny 57:47 Just... No, yeah, just to give a big asterisk there.

Chris Williamson 57:50 (laughs)

Jonny 57:50 We, we was on a beach during COVID, um, and-

Chris Williamson 57:55 This would have been two and a half years into the podcast.

Jonny 57:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:57 So not, not an insignificant amount of time, yeah.

Jonny 57:59 Yeah, and Chris just said, "If..." Like, we're talking about goals and where he wants to take things. He goes... kind of pauses for a second, and he goes, "I think, I think 100,000 subscribers. I think as soon as I get that I'll just chill out a bit."

Chris Williamson 58:11 I'll be happy then. I remember-

Jonny 58:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:13 Hey, this is all production staff, so enjoy-

Jonny 58:15 We've got 100,000 now.

Chris Williamson 58:17 I, I remember when I was in my-

Jonny 58:19 Remind him of that one.

Chris Williamson 58:20 ... first year of university, and I remember buying a tub of protein and looking at it and thinking, "After this one, I think I'll be done." (laughs)

Jonny 58:32 (laughs) Do y- do you think, do you think-

Chris Williamson 58:34 I was 18 and weighed about 76 kilos.

Jonny 58:38 But it was that w- it was the t-

Chris Williamson 58:39 No, sorry, 69. I was 69 kilos. Fucking hell.

Jonny 58:42 Wow.

Chris Williamson 58:42 I remember when I hit 70 kilos when I was 20 years old and I was like, "I am fucking huge!"

Jonny 58:48 I, I think if you'd picked an easier goal, your development would have been totally different, slower.

Chris Williamson 58:53 But this is a big, this is a big Hormozianism where he says, um, uh, the person that you become along the way, like, "How can you say that you're a man who can do hard things if you never did hard things?"

Jonny 59:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:03 And then Jimmy Carr repurposed it even better. And it, it's... Yeah, this insight I think is... It is a saving grace to a lot of people who feel that their goals are hollow.

Jonny 59:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:12 Um, so I think that's a, a w- wonderful lesson. Like, a really, really lovely lesson. All right, Yousef, what have you got?

Yusef 59:18 Yeah. Think of how many bags of protein you've eaten since then, Chris. Um, so you-

Chris Williamson 59:23 Many.

Yusef 59:23 ... you did the same with balloons as well, didn't you, where like thousand subscribers you and Dean had a, like, cake and balloons and a party.

Chris Williamson 59:31 Each, each subs-

Yusef 59:32 And then-

Chris Williamson 59:32 ... subscriber level has got bigger and less grand in its celebration, yeah. Did we even do anything for four million?

Yusef 59:38 The num- number of balloons was less.

Chris Williamson 59:40 For four million subs we didn't do...

Yusef 59:42 We did something for a billion players.

Chris Williamson 59:44 We did, we did something for a billion players but, yeah, for four million subs I don't think it even registered. Well, it did. We were like, "Ah, well, could we... we need to get a piece of artwork and do that." We did for the eighth in the world. Eighth in the world I had a... what was supposed to be a red velvet cake, but it wasn't. It was a carrot cake masquerading as a red velvet cake, and it was awful.

Jonny 1:00:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:01 It was horrible, and I, and I tried, I tried to eat it in Utah.

Jonny 1:00:04 Yeah. I remem-

Chris Williamson 1:00:04 But it didn't go well.

Jonny 1:00:04 It's c- it's crazy to think-

Chris Williamson 1:00:06 (laughs)

Jonny 1:00:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:07 Yeah, I know.

Jonny 1:00:07 It, it's crazy to think for like a, 100,000 you did this mega party, and then for four million-

Chris Williamson 1:00:12 And balloons.

Jonny 1:00:12 ... you probably just sent a bicep emoji on Slack.

Chris Williamson 1:00:15 That's it.

Jonny 1:00:15 Yeah.

Yusef 1:00:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:15 Probably the Pornhub, the Pornhub emoji, yeah, on, on Slack.

Jonny 1:00:18 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:00:20 A quick aside. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say that they are top quality, but very few can actually prove it, which is why I partnered with Momentous. They make the highest quality supplements on the planet, and their whey protein is literally the cleanest on the market. It's fast absorbing isolate source from grass-fed European cows, which means no hormones, no antibiotics, no GMOs. Plus, it's NSF certified, meaning that even Olympians can use it. And unlike most proteins, it's designed for gut health. No fillers, no junk, low in lactose, and it mixes amazingly. This is fantastic. Clean protein usually tastes awful, and this is unbelievable. Best of all, there's a 30-day money back guarantee so you can buy completely risk-free. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com/modernwisdom at Modern Wisdom.... at checkout.

Chris Williamson 1:01:17 All right, Seth, what have you got?

Yusef 1:01:18 (overlapped by music) Mm. J- So, s- s- ... So, ju- just to piggyback off Johnny's there, 'cause I really like the takeaway of, like, the person that you become, um, I think there's another thing that you can draw from that too, so I fully agree, but, um, you were talking about, like, chewing on the menu, so mistaking the menu for the meal and ascribing that as the, t- t- to your happiness, and we're the ones that always move the goalposts for our happiness every time we hit a particular milestone and we renegotiate the contract with our brain so that we end up in this trap where, you know, the, your brain releasing little blips of, of some neurotransmitter but you raise the bar of, "Oh, but it has to be, I have to achieve an even higher bar to, to get the same little blurt of dopamine." Um, and, uh, a lot of it's because we almost feel like it's too simple to just enjoy the basic pleasures of life that are immediately available, of, like, health and relationships and nature and the sun and friends and thi- things that, um, you would a- ... Like, if they were taken away from you, you would actually want to exchange everything for that. So there's a, there's a book by a media giant who wrote ... I think he came o- ... He was, like, the head of PC World magazine and a bunch of conc- conglomerates called, uh, it's w- it's called Felix, Felix Dennis, uh, How to Get Rich, and it- it's like a tongue-in-cheek book about, like, you know, like, "I'm sat here at the age of 84, um, writing, um, this book to you, dear reader, who's, um, you know, probably in your 20s or 30s, and despite the billions that I've amassed, I would swap places with you in an instant because you have the one thing that I don't, which is time, and I would still have the better end of the deal." Um, so it's almost like the, the things that we're chasing ... Like, most people listening to this podcast are probably in the top, like, 20% of global wealth anyway, and yet we think that if we get to the top 19% or the top 18% or whatever that something's gonna change. Um, I saw Ferris shared this quote from Marian Zeldes the other day, "The hardest thing to teach a student, and to believe consistently, is that there is nothing out there to go and get. There is no part, career, opportunity for which you should be searching and scrounging and coveting. All of the preparation is within, and if you keep yourself mentally and physically fit and you remain generous with yourself and others, and stay deeply in your study about your cr- your craft, whatever is yours will then arrive." So with that in mind, it's like there are basic pleasures that are always available and when they're gone, like health, for example, when a challenge ... We've all, I think all of us have gone through some health challenge in the last, like, 10 years where we've suddenly been like, "Oh, wow."

Chris Williamson 1:04:07 Mm.

Yusef 1:04:08 "Actually, I could really do with (laughs) a bit more of that again." Um, so instead it's like enjoy those pleasures and then organize your life such that you can enjoy the passage of time as you move towards your goal, and then you've got the best of both worlds.

Chris Williamson 1:04:24 I think this is ... It might sound too, uh, it's probably almost certainly would have sounded to us eight years ago when we started the pod opulent maybe, entitled, s- r- detached from reality in some sort of ... Why, why ... Just get stronger, bigger, more rich, more popular, whatever. Um, why are you needing to make everything so abstract? But this leads into my favorite, my favorite lesson from the entire year which is that unteachable lessons are unteachable, and this has been the best I wrote it in January and then dropped it on Rogan a couple of weeks after that, and it's still just, it's a fundamental truism that there are a particular category of insights about life that you cannot learn without experiencing, and money won't make you happy, fame won't fix your self-worth, you don't love that pretty girl, she's just hot and difficult to get, you should see your parents more, you should work less, you should spend more time in a hammock, you should enjoy a holiday without having your phone, you'll never care about anything that you're thinking of apart from when you're thinking about it. Like, all of these lessons over and over, the next follower count won't matter. The reason that people proclaim them with such, like, grandiose ceremony when they get there is that they can't believe that that was the case, despite the fact that generations of parents and media and literature and archetype and myth and songs and art have told us, "Here are the pitfalls to look out for."

Yusef 1:06:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:01 And it's this weird kind of, like, cute narcissism that we all have where we think, "Tha- that might be true for them, but not for me." My particularly unique-

Yusef 1:06:11 It's the classic, like, "Oh, shut up, grandad. Like-"

Chris Williamson 1:06:14 Yes.

Yusef 1:06:14 "... I'll figure it out myself," right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:16 Yeah, yeah.

Yusef 1:06:16 Okay?

Chris Williamson 1:06:16 Tha- my unique constitution would allow me to dance through this minefield of very well-laden, very well-described tripwires and I won't trip on any of them. So I'm working on, uh, the next build of this unteachable lessons thing 'cause I think it's so good. Um, one of the ... So first off, I guess, you are ... If you chase something that you were warned was hollow to arrive there and find out that the warning was correct, you are in good company. That's the first lesson of the unteachable lessons thing. But the second one is that they are unteachable, so the self-castigation of I should have known what I didn't know before I knew it, like, I should have seen this thing coming or whatever, I, that is simply not the way. The s- the unteachable lessons are self-reinforcing. They are unteachable, which means you have to do them in order to be able to understand them, and I think this is what maybe a good bit of-... also reckoning with now, that unteachable lessons don't really matter all that much, until you're at the stage where you've learned that the lesson should have been realized in advance, and you knew about it, and then you get this guilt. And you get the shame around, "Oh, fucking hell, how could I not have seen... Did the guys not tell me? Did they not say that the 4 million subs wasn't the answer, that the..." so on, and da-da-da-da-da. And, um, I think what I realized was, unteachable lessons is, is cool to point at, but doesn't actually give anybody any sense of... All it does is mark the way to the edge of the cliff that they are going to jump off of, and on your way down, you'll realize that you're in okay company. So, maybe you feel a bit less lonely. But the next one is, you can't realize this stuff before you've experienced it. And because of that, you shouldn't be whipping yourself into, like, pain, and, and saying, "What an idiot. I shouldn't have done this." It's a, a justification for self-compassion that... Way smarter, way richer, way more accomplished, more worldly people who had more advantages than you knew more and did the exact same thing, bigger, for longer, till the end of their life. They died trying to do it. And, okay, like, it, you, you dedicated however many weeks, months, years, decades to this career, relationship, pursuit, goal, dream, whatever it might be, to find out that what was at the end of the rainbow wasn't a pot of gold. You're in good company.

Jonny 1:08:54 Mm-hmm.

1:08:55 What's that programming? Like, you can't just take it on faith. Otherwise, you'll be sat there with FOMO.

Chris Williamson 1:09:00 Yeah. Yeah, it's the Naval thing. It's far easier to achieve your material desires than to renounce them.

Jonny 1:09:04 I think it's, like, the best reason to achieve them.

Chris Williamson 1:09:06 To clear them off, 100%.

Jonny 1:09:07 Yeah. Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:09:07 It's way easier. And this sounds like a (censored) thing to say, but...

Jonny 1:09:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:13 Demonetized.

Jonny 1:09:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:16 Um...

Jonny 1:09:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:16 Uh, it's, it's literally easier to buy a Ferrari than it is to rid yourself of the desire-

Jonny 1:09:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:22 ... to get a Ferrari.

Jonny 1:09:23 Yeah. It's either this or-

Chris Williamson 1:09:23 And that, that doesn't speak to how easy it is to get a Ferrari. It speaks to how difficult it is to be able to-

Jonny 1:09:29 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:09:29 ... rid yourself of the desire for a Ferrari, if you really want it.

Jonny 1:09:31 It's who you become in bec- in being able to get the Ferrari in the first place, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 1:09:35 Yeah.

Jonny 1:09:36 But yeah, I think, like... A really bad credit rating. (laughs) Oh, yeah, true.

Chris Williamson 1:09:40 Bitches.

Jonny 1:09:41 The, um... I, I think, like, if, if by-

Chris Williamson 1:09:45 Big naturals.

Jonny 1:09:45 ... gaining a certain amount of money, you remove your desire to get more money, fantastic.

Chris Williamson 1:09:50 Yeah.

Jonny 1:09:50 It's like, it's the-

Chris Williamson 1:09:50 The quickest route, the quickest route to getting rid of the desire is to achieve it.

Jonny 1:09:53 Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Um,

Jonny 1:09:56 what have I got next? Uh, you know, uh, one we've discussed before actually, um, not on the show. So, you'd spoke then about giving up desires. Uh, another problem is, is envy or jealousy. And I've... One of the things I've tried to do rather than give up envy or jealousy is have a bit more of a stricter criteria of when I'm willing to be envy or jealous. So, what I kind of developed is this idea I call Call of Duty versus war. So, Call of Duty is kind of what I project Johnny's life to be, be like, right? Like, maybe some of the highlights that I hear-

Chris Williamson 1:10:31 Let's get similar.

Jonny 1:10:31 ... and the wins and all of that stuff. And then the war is, okay, when I've actually been with you for a week and lived your life. If I'm envious of the war, then that's fine. But if I'm envious of this Call of Duty-

Chris Williamson 1:10:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 1:10:44 ... 1% highlight reel that doesn't exist, then that's a problem. So, like, I use, I mean, I use two examples. I mean, one of them is, um, a... Is a, a business guy we both know, super, super, super successful. And he's got everything, beautiful family, amazing business. Um, he's crushing it year on year. And he's got to the scale now where we're talking, it's a huge mega business. I was with him, and you can easily feel envious. He goes, "Oh, I've got, um... I think it was 2,000 lawsuits this month."

Chris Williamson 1:11:13 (laughs)

Jonny 1:11:13 'Cause when y- when your bus- when your business gets to that scale, you're constantly dealing with litigation from so many different an- uh... But d- wasn't he dealing with this personally as well? I don't... Yeah, there was like- He jumped in on some email while you were- Yes. Yeah. And he's, he, I mean, he's one of my favorite people in the world, but I go, "Oh, wow, like, if I wanna be envious, I've gotta go to the war. I, I've gotta be, oh, I also want the 2,000 emails a month." And likewise, I mean, me and you were on the road trip, and I think it's probably good for the viewers, 'cause I think a lot of people could look at you and go, "Good-looking guy, um, super successful, rich, knows loads of people." And that's the kind of Call of Duty model.

Chris Williamson 1:11:49 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 1:11:49 Me and Chris are on a road trip in America, and we're gonna put the tunes on and blare through the roads. And then Sky, your podcast ads manager, calls up and goes... I think w- the way people assume the ads work for the show is probably, "Oh, Chris just gets a load of free stuff and money, right?" That's what I think they think. Whereas you kind of then get to sit there with the war, and it's Sky going, "Yeah, they're just not happy with that Instagram story." It's Chris going, "I filmed that one four times now. Why are they not happy with it?" And I go, "Oh, okay. My model before was the Call of Duty, and now I'm seeing the war."

Chris Williamson 1:12:19 Yeah.

Jonny 1:12:20 "So, unless I've seen the war, I'm not envious. And if I, I see the war and I like it, I'm willing to be Napoleon."

Chris Williamson 1:12:26 Mm.

Jonny 1:12:27 I think when Mark Zuckerberg was on Joe Rogan, he describes, like, his morning. And it's, like, he wakes up and he doesn't look at his phone, because when he looks at his phone, there's just loads of bile-

Chris Williamson 1:12:35 All the break news. Yeah. ... government spewing over from-

Jonny 1:12:37 And that, that, and he was like, "Oh, God. Like, that never goes away. Like, it doesn't matter how big the business is."

Chris Williamson 1:12:41 Just gets more.

Jonny 1:12:42 I- i- well, the emails are just worse.

Chris Williamson 1:12:43 Yeah.

Jonny 1:12:43 It's the emails that, like, 15 people below you didn't have the answer to.

Chris Williamson 1:12:46 Well, I think that's another Sam Harris-ism where there will never come a day when you don't have any problems.

Jonny 1:12:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:12:52 What, did you think that you were gonna wake up one day and there be no problems? Like, getting to a video game level where there's no more enemies to fight?

Jonny 1:12:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:12:59 No, your problems will change, but having problems will never go away. The, the line from your idea about Call of Duty versus war is nailed by James Clear here. "How many people love the idea of a thing, but not the reality? It doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. If you don't want to live the lifestyle, then release yourself from the desire. To crave the result but not the process is to guarantee disappointment."

Jonny 1:13:23 Beautiful.

1:13:25 ... beautiful.

Chris Williamson 1:13:25 Nailed it.

Jonny 1:13:26 Um, Popper has this, uh, idea, um, he's like one of the founding fathers of modern science, that essentially life is problem-solving. And then David Deutsch builds upon his ideas, which is, I guess a few things, but, one, all problems, unless they defy the laws of physics, are fundamentally solvable. But ... So that's the optimistic note. But there's a big caveat there, which is, as soon as you solve a problem, it leads to another problem. So solutions are infinite, but problems are also infinite. So let's say we solved the problem of fire. Okay, now we have the problem of smoke. Okay, we've solved the problem of smoke. We've got a chimney. Okay, now we've got a dirty chimney. Okay, we're gonna ... We solved that problem by getting some children in to clean it. Oh, no, we've got the problem of child labor. And it's just duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, and it's both the beginning of infinity, both for problems and solutions. So life is problem-solving.

Chris Williamson 1:14:17 Very good. Johnny, what have you got?

Jonny 1:14:20 I have another lesson, which is ... It's a dad-based lesson-