Lose Fat & Gain Muscle Without "Dieting" - Dr Layne Norton

1. 0:00 – 5:44

   Why So Many Diets Fail

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Why do diets fail so reliably over the long term?

   2. LNLayne Norton0:05

      Uh, a lot of different reasons, but if we zoom out and take a 10,000-foot view, uh, the main reason is because people view it as a diet instead of lifestyle change. So, if we dig into this th- statistics, if- of people who lose weight- or sorry, of obese people, seven out of every eight will lose a significant amount of body weight in their lifetime. So, why do we have an obesity problem? The problem is they- almost all of them put it back on, and in- in many cases, actually put on more than they lost. So, if you look at the weight regain statistics, and you go out, like, a year, depending on the stats you use and inclusion criteria for regain, 50 to 70% will have regained what they lost. Uh, if you go two years, it gets closer to 80, 85%, and if you look at three years, I mean, you're looking at 90% plus have put it back on. And so, a lot of people want to lose weight, but they only think about a diet as an end point. And so, if you stop doing the habits and behaviors that allowed you to lose it in the first place, you're not gonna sustain it. I mean, a great example is, uh, my father did a ketogenic diet, like, 20 years ago, and he lost 30 pounds. But slowly, he kind of reverted to his previous lifestyle, and so slowly the weight came back on. And so, I tell people it's hard to- if you're gonna lose a lot of weight, it's hard to change your life while dragging your old habits and behaviors behind you. And for whatever reason, this doesn't seem to, like, click with- with diet and lifestyle, because, you know, I- I looked at a, um, a systematic review of successful weight loss maintainers. So you're basically talking about the 5%, right? Like, the people who lose it and keep it off. What do they have in common? And this was a review by a researcher named Marie Sprecher, and it really stood out to me, because some of the stuff that you would expect is on there, which is cognitive restraint, meaning they're either tracking calories or limiting carbs or- or time restricting, s- some form of restraint, right? Like, you have to have some form of restraint. But then (sighs) ... And then there was exercise on there, self-monitoring, meaning they were weighing themselves frequently. You know, that's obvious, like, feedback. If you start going up, you change your habits again. But then there was something on there that, like, really kind of... It made sense, but I was like, "Huh, I never thought of it that way." And it was a lot of them, almost down to a person, identified that they had to form a new identity. Like, they had to become someone else. And d'you know Ethan Suplee?

   3. CWChris Williamson2:50

      Yes.

   4. LNLayne Norton2:51

      So, Ethan is a Hollywood actor who lost over 300 pounds and has kept it off, and now he- I mean, he went from being basically like your prototype fat guy in a movie to, like, he looks like he'd play a Navy Seal. You know?

   5. CWChris Williamson3:02

      He's the prototype hard guy in a movie now.

   6. LNLayne Norton3:04

      Right. Yeah, yeah. He looks like a badass. And he always would put up something when he'd post his gym photos, which was, "I killed my clone today."

   7. CWChris Williamson3:14

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   8. LNLayne Norton3:15

      You know?

   9. CWChris Williamson3:15

      I've got a T-shirt with that on. He sent me a T-shirt with that on.

   10. LNLayne Norton3:17

       Yeah. And I was like... I thought it was a cool saying, but didn't really register, and then when I read this review, I texted him immediately, and I was like, "Is this what you mean, like, forming a new identity?" He said, "That is exactly what I mean." And if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. If you're a- a- I don't wanna say that there's, like, food addiction, 'cause the- the actual research for that is kinda convoluted, um, it's more about what they call food dependence, which there are subtle differences, but regardless, if you're an alcoholic, you can't- you can't live the same lifestyle you lived. You can't just say, "Well, I'm gonna stop drinking, but I'm still gonna go to bars, and I'm still gonna be around a bunch of people who drink." I mean, I guess you can try, (laughs) but it's gonna be really hard for that to be successful, right? And so, one of the other things that was in this- this review was they- they pointed out that they had- they lost friends, and then they gained new friends.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:14

       Mm.

   12. LNLayne Norton4:15

       I think a lot of people would interpret that as, well, you know, they're getting into fitness now and think they're too good for their old friends. And I don't think it's that at all, I think it's in a much more pragmatic level that if you're just doing new stuff, you're not gonna, like- it's gonna be hard to hang around people who just aren't into the stuff that you're into. And also, a lot of times, and we see this a lot, the whole crabs in a bucket, you start improving yourself, and people who... Let me put that back, 'cause I might get a little, uh, you start changing yourself-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:49

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LNLayne Norton4:50

       ... and other people, it makes them feel insecure-

   15. CWChris Williamson4:51

       I don't think you need to try and pull that back. I don't think that there is anybody out there that would say, "I'm over 30 BMI. Taking myself under BMI is anything other than improving myself." Like, your moral worth as a human doesn't change-

   16. LNLayne Norton5:04

       For sure.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:04

       ... but your health outcomes do. That's improvement, right?

   18. LNLayne Norton5:07

       There are people who would argue that it doesn't.

   19. CWChris Williamson5:09

       Well, there's people who-

   20. LNLayne Norton5:10

       But- but-

   21. CWChris Williamson5:10

       There's people who have got a fucking, like, 22.5 BMI that are total dicks.

   22. LNLayne Norton5:15

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:15

       There's people who've got a 35 BMI that are fantastic people-

   24. LNLayne Norton5:18

       For sure.

   25. CWChris Williamson5:18

       ... but those 35 BMI fantastic people, at a 25 BMI, have improved themself.

   26. LNLayne Norton5:24

       For sure.

   27. CWChris Williamson5:24

       Like, presuming that what we want is flourishing humans that add to the world for a longer period of time-

   28. LNLayne Norton5:29

       For sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:31

       ... give yourself the best chance of last. Get that in you. Go on. Shove that in your face.

   30. LNLayne Norton5:34

       Yeah.
2. 5:44 – 16:21

   How to Change Your Identity

   1. CWChris Williamson5:44

      speaking of this identity change thing, did anybody deconstruct that? Is there- are there t- tactics, strategies, mantras, component parts that people can think, "I want to change my identity"? What does that look like structurally?

   2. LNLayne Norton5:56

      Yeah, so not in the study, but the way I kinda present it to people is...Retro, retro-engineer it. Okay? So think about the person you want to become, and then think about, "What do I think that person's habits and behaviors look like?" Um, if I were to lose 100 pounds, do I think that is a person who is going to McDonald's every day? Probably not. Now, c- can you theoretically go to McDonald's every day and lose 100 pounds? Sure. There are people who have done that sort of experiment, whatever. But for the most part, that is not, on average, what you would find somebody doing who does that. Right? Are they drinking every day? Probably not. Are they exercising frequently? Probably. All right then, so you start thinking about, "What do I think this person does on a daily basis?" If somebody, you know, comes to a Chris Williamson and says, "I, I want to be one of the best podcasters in the game," right? Well, people, a lot of the times, they just try to emulate the end pro- the end result. They don't try to emulate the process, which is why you've got a bunch of $30,000 millionaires taking pictures with rental cars and, and jets they don't own. Right? So the question becomes, "Okay, if I'm looking at the end product, what process do I think got them there, and what is the evidence-based process for getting there?" And the evidence-based process for getting there is setting yourself up for success in terms of your environment, the people you're around, and the things that you do on a day-to-day basis. So many people... And I think it's almost like a Hollywood thing. If you watch a movie, it's, like, almost always the change in a character or the crescendo of the movie is some revolutionary thing that changes everything, and all of a sudden, it stops on a dime.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:46

      It's 180-second montage.

   4. LNLayne Norton7:48

      Right. And the reality is, it's, it's rarely like that. Rarely does a switch flip. It is the slow, progressive accumulation of small things that you do every day that feel like nothing, that feel like they don't actually do anything, but you do that over time and it makes a big difference. One of my favorite quotes is, "One of the problems that keeps people from being successful is people drastically overestimate what they can do in 10 weeks, but they drastically underestimate what they can do in 10 years." And if I look back... I was actually having this conversation with a friend of mine who's very successful, financially and career-wise. And he's in a place right now where he's saying, "Man, I just don't feel like I'm getting any traction, and I feel stuck, and I'm not moving." I say, "Hey, man, like, just look at the data. Okay? The data says over the last 10 years, you progress and you are successful. But there are gonna be periods of time where it feels like you're not." And even, like, in the last 10 years, if I look at the last 10 years or even 20 years of my life, I'm like, "My God, look at all the stuff I did." But if I zoom in to weeks, months, even some years, I felt like making progress was completely intractable, and it felt like I was, you know, stuck in mud. But when you keep your feet moving, when you zoom out and you kind of get through that spot, a lot of times you realize, "Oh, no, I was making progress. I just hadn't actualized it yet. I hadn't seen those gains yet." We t- we talk about this in powerlifting, which I compete in. A lot of times, you're training under a high level of fatigue, and so you're getting stronger, but it's being masked by the fact that you have so much fatigue. And then when you pull back, when you taper, all of a sudden you actualize those gains. And I think so many people stop in that area where they're under the high fatigue, and they never actualize those gains. And so what I'll... Getting back to your original question, what I will say is, the stuff that works is not sexy. It doesn't sell, and it seems insignificant in many ways. But it is small, daily, repeated habits done over and over and over again. And I even put up a post today talking about how lifting changed my life. Eh, not because I got a better physique or because I got physically stronger, but because it taught me so many things about resilience and working through setbacks and not quitting when things got hard and being patient. And I remember, like, I had really skinny legs when I started lifting. And even after three years of training, my legs were still really skinny. And I remember being really frustrated and wanting to quit, except I had these great parents that were like, "We're not quitters. Nortons don't quit." And, uh, so I said to myself, "You know, maybe, um, maybe I'll never have a good set of legs," and this was when I was competing in bodybuilding. "But I'm gonna put in 10 years of work, and if it doesn't happen then I'll allow myself to quit and I can feel good about it, because I know I did everything I could." And sure enough, funny enough, after 10 years, I, I didn't have the best set of legs on stage, but they were good, you know? And then 17 years after that, I actually went and set a world squat record. Then... I can remember my coach, uh, who had known me for, like, almost 20 years, um, when I came downstairs after I did my drug testing in setting that world record, he was sitting on a five-gallon bucket and he was crying. He never cries. He's not an emotional guy. I was like, "Dude, what is it?" And he goes, "You were the skinny kid, you were the kid with skinny legs that everybody on the bodybuilding forums made fun of. How did you just do that?"

   5. CWChris Williamson11:38

      Mm-Hmm.

   6. LNLayne Norton11:39

      And when I, what I tell people is, "It was just, I just kept going, day after day after day, doing the work." And again, it felt like it was taking forever, but when you accumulate all that stuff up, it's amazing what it can do. I mean, even you, like look at what you've done. You know, James was telling me about how you, you got started in podcasting and everything. And James gives this great talk where basically he's talking to entrepreneurs a- and the crux of the talk is, "Just freaking go."... just, like, be willing to fail. Like, so many people are frozen by paralysis by analysis. I think that's where a lot of the, the, where I work with trying to dispel diet myths, I'm trying to simplify it for people, because people hear all these conflicting myths, and a lot of times they never start-

   7. CWChris Williamson12:26

      Yeah.

   8. LNLayne Norton12:26

      ... because they're so afraid of getting it wrong, and it's like, no, get it wrong! It's fine. Like get it wrong, but learn, you know? And then, over time, you will find what works. But you can't ever do that if you don't start.

   9. CWChris Williamson12:38

      The best heuristic that I've learned to help people overcome that fear of not being perfect. Like I'm an optimizer, right? Uh, Tim Ferriss, I loved listening to him on the come up. Uh, l- we did 25 episodes of life hacks on how to make the perfect toasted sandwich or a new meditation app or-

   10. LNLayne Norton12:56

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson12:57

       ... your screen time blocking or this new type of Crocs or whatever the, like the best bamboo cotton pants we found. Uh, so I was an optimizer, and the problem with being someone that wants to do things right and does th- cares, a- a- and does things with earnestness and stuff like that, is that there is this sort of, you allow yourself to be excused from doing a thing because, "Well, I'm just finding out the information," right? I- I- I'm- I'm sort of stuck in this preparatory phase.

   12. LNLayne Norton13:22

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson13:22

       I'm permanently, permanently writing the plan, uh, and not actually acting on the k- on the plan. And the best thing, because we can throw pithy aphorisms around all day, and I- I'm sometimes accused of doing that. Tactically, the best thing that I've relied on for this is, is this a reversible decision? If it's a reversible decision, starting a diet is the most fucking reversible, because tomorrow, guess what? You can do a different diet. Probably not a good idea. But if you say, "Hey, for 60 days, I'm just gonna give this a crack. I'm gonna see if intermittent fasting is for me." As opposed to watching all of the podcasts about it or reading all of the articles or, you know, sh- arguing with people on fucking Instagram comments about it like you do, that, like (laughs)

   14. LNLayne Norton14:03

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson14:03

       Just-

   16. LNLayne Norton14:03

       All the time.

   17. CWChris Williamson14:04

       ... it's- it's a reversible decision.

   18. LNLayne Norton14:05

       For sure.

   19. CWChris Williamson14:06

       Right? And if it's a reversible decision, then, i- the net cost of you trying it is essentially zero, right? Because a- all that you will have lost is some of the time that you would have lost vacillating about whether or not to make the decision in any case. So why not just have a crack and close the loop on, "Dude, I tried intermittent fasting. Do you know what it is? Might work for some people. I can't deal with the hunger pangs. I get to 2:00 PM and I'm like, I- I got to eat everything and it causes me to rebound more in the nighttime or, or it might be..." Like for me, keto for me really doesn't, I- I don't like the way that my stomach feels on keto. I feel very hungry a lot of the time. High fat doesn't seem to agree with me. Fine, but I closed that loop. I closed that loop like 10 years ago and I'm like, "All right, I d- I have some different dietary tools in my toolkit. Keto is not one of them." Maybe I'll give it another crack in five year, maybe my, my, my constitution will have changed a little bit or whatever. Um, so what, what you've mentioned there is that, and- and this is really interesting and really important I think. Identity-based change. Someone thinks about the end result type of person, not necessarily a person, but what would that type of person do? What would the best version of you tomorrow want you today to do? What sort of decisions would they make? Now, presumably, the only way that you can actually work out what those decisions are... Yes, I want to be lean or I want to be healthy, I wanna be fit, or I want to be the sort of person that looks good with their top off or whatever it might be. But you need to actually understand what the contributing elements are of that strategy. And if you don't know what the principles are that you need to follow, you're like wishing for this outcome with no mechanism to help yourself get there.

   20. LNLayne Norton15:45

       Yeah, and I think you need to have a strong why too. Like that's, that's the other thing. I- I- I get there are some people I talk to who are stuck in perpetuity of trying to lose five pounds and I'm like, "Hey, why are you trying to lose this?" And- and a lot of times it's, "Well, you know, I just wanna look th-" I'm like, "Is it really gonna be that big of a difference from where you are now? You know, like you're torturing yourself over this thing. And it, the, why don't you just do it? Well, the reason you don't, you not doing it is 'cause your why isn't strong enough."

   21. CWChris Williamson16:13

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LNLayne Norton16:13

       You haven't identified why that is more important than say you're gonna eat the extra

   23. CWChris Williamson16:18

       Socializing with your friends or-

   24. LNLayne Norton16:19

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:20

       ... y- allowing yourself. Isn't

3. 16:21 – 21:04

   Why You Aren’t Closer to Your Goals

   1. CWChris Williamson16:21

      that interesting that some people can kind of become, and I've got a lot of friend... And I probably in, in many regards still am this, uh, taking a good amount of pride in my condition, in my strength, in the way that I look, in the way that I can move and stuff like that. But I let go of at least like, I have to be the, one of the biggest, leanest, jackedest guys in the gym thing maybe about six or seven years ago. If you don't do that, you can basically just get stuck on that level playing the same game for the rest of your life.

   2. LNLayne Norton16:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson16:49

      Like, I have this unrequited love with my physique, or I have this unrequited love with, uh, the number of partners I've slept with. I have this unrequited love with the amount of money that I've made or whatever, and people just continue to play this game over and over and over again as opposed to going, "If this mattered to me that much, I would probably be closer to my goals." And that's probably an uncomfortable realization for a lot of people.

   4. LNLayne Norton17:12

      Yeah, I mean like, um, I've had this conversation quite a bit recently of that goalpost will always move, you know? But for me, like I'm competing in nationals this weekend, which by the way is why my nails are painted 'cause my daughter and I, we have a tradition. She's seven and she paints my nails before every big meet.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:28

      What's, what's the style that she's gone for here? Can you describe it to me?

   6. LNLayne Norton17:31

      Uh, so usually we do red, white, and blue, um, for the USA obviously.

   7. CWChris Williamson17:36

      Red, blue, and glitter?

   8. LNLayne Norton17:37

      So, but she had some glitter and she wanted to use that, so...

   9. CWChris Williamson17:40

      That's, I'm pretty sure that, 'cause you're in a tested federation.

   10. LNLayne Norton17:42

       Correct.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:43

       I'm not sure that that's going to pass.

   12. LNLayne Norton17:44

       It's not natty? (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson17:45

       No. That's, that's, that's the least natty thing that you can do.

   14. LNLayne Norton17:48

       I- well, it is a performance enhancer for me, so...

   15. CWChris Williamson17:50

       That's correct. That's correct. All right. So-

   16. LNLayne Norton17:53

       But, I- I did wanna touch on, um, for me, I mean, I- I got second in the world in 2015 in powerlifting and at the biggest powerlifting meet at that point in history, and then went through a bunch of injuries, um, like I could write out a laundry list of stuff, multiple herniated discs.... tears and muscles in my hips, um, adductor tears, uh, partially torn pecs, like a laundry list of stuff.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:20

       Lots of fun.

   18. LNLayne Norton18:20

       And it took me eight years to get back, and win Masters, Worlds... Sorry, seven years. And there were, I mean, that's a long time, and there was a lot of failures to launch, of me starting to come back and then going back to the beginning. I mean, that must have been at least a half dozen times, and it was very frustrating, and there were times where I questioned it. But I had a very strong why of I believed deep in my soul that I could be a world champion. I believed that, and I also believed deep down that I had not been the strongest that I could've been. And, like, to your point of the goalpost moving, it wasn't about, "I've got to be stronger than all these other guys." It was, I believed it deep in my soul and it was important for me to prove that to myself, that I could get through that, that I could come back, and I loved competing. So I had a really strong why, and that's what allowed me to get through that, and when I did it, it, I've... One of the things that I'll give myself credit for is I'm good about giving myself credit. Some people have said, "Oh, you're cocky." I'm like, "No, I've done some pretty bad motherfucker stuff." And, like, I'm okay with giving myself that credit because I've met so many people who are so successful in so many ways, and they're miserable-

   19. CWChris Williamson19:46

       Yeah.

   20. LNLayne Norton19:46

       ... because they never go-

   21. CWChris Williamson19:49

       "Great job. That was awesome. Yeah, well done."

   22. LNLayne Norton19:50

       Like, you're allowed to do that. It's okay.

   23. CWChris Williamson19:52

       Yeah.

   24. LNLayne Norton19:52

       You know? Like, I, I, when I got second at Worlds in 2015 and set a World's squat record, and that was after I'd herniated some disks even, I was out in my boat in the Florida Keys by myself just on vacation and I literally took 15 minutes and I was like, "Damn, Layne, you f- did it." Like, "Good job." You know? Because I remembered, um, I knew this guy on the bodybuilding message boards, and this guy had a terrible aesthetics for bodybuilding, like horrible. Uh, had no business even being a pro bodybuilder, but he worked so hard, and he got so lean that he got third at the World Championships for drug-tested bodybuilding. It, like, it was f- unbelievable, honestly. Like, he maxed it out. And people were congratulating him online, and he said... I'll never forget it. He said, you know, "Thanks, guys, but to me anything less than overall victory is just a c- a complete, uh, failure." And I'm like, "What a miserable existence." Like, dude, it's o- and it's okay. It... Just 'cause you give yourself credit doesn't mean that you can't strive for more.

   25. CWChris Williamson20:55

       You're selling yourself short. Yeah.

   26. LNLayne Norton20:57

       For me, that actually helps me strive for more because I allow myself to feel it. I allow myself

4. 21:04 – 35:10

   Importance of Celebrating Wins & Having Fun

   1. LNLayne Norton21:04

      to feel good.

   2. CWChris Williamson21:04

      That's positive reward.

   3. LNLayne Norton21:05

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:06

      Like, if you're not go- if you're not going to celebrate yourself when you get even close to your goal, what the fuck are you doing it for?

   5. LNLayne Norton21:10

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson21:10

      Isn't it strange that we're... it's more publicly acceptable to be our own biggest critic than our own biggest fan?

   7. LNLayne Norton21:17

      Yup, exactly. I have a friend who's a psychologist, and every once in a while she'll, like, um, she'll validate me. And then she noticed that when she would do that, I would kind of be like, "Oh, well, you know, it wasn't that, uh-"

   8. CWChris Williamson21:29

      Minimize.

   9. LNLayne Norton21:30

      And she would go, "Layne..."

   10. CWChris Williamson21:32

       "You're doing it again."

   11. LNLayne Norton21:33

       "You d- you, this is what you... You want this, but if you keep deferring it, you're actually, what you're telling, uh, me is you don't want it." And I'm like, "You're right. I'm sorry. Thank you for validating me on that." You know? And it really is funny. I think it's... It's so weird we can even feel bad about, like, talking about our income or talking about something. We're supposed to minimize the stuff we did.

   12. CWChris Williamson21:59

       Mm.

   13. LNLayne Norton22:00

       And look, I'm not saying, like, get up on the mountaintop and shout about all the great things you've done, but I think it's important to, like, make sure you're not goalpost shifting all the time. I mean, I've talked about this stuff with, like, really, really, really successful people. And I'll never forget, I had a, a client... I started online coaching in 2005, uh, when I was in graduate school, and, uh, one of my first clients that I trained pro in natural bodybuilding, he was an estate planning attorney, and he pulled me aside after that show, this is, like, 2007, and we were at dinner. He pulled me aside and he, he goes, "Layne, uh, I need to t- I need to talk to you about something. I've been around a lot of really successful people, and I'm telling you you've got it. You've got it. You're, you're gonna be successful." I have watched a lot of really successful people die, and to a person they all say the same stuff. They say, "I wish I'd have spent more time with my family. I wish I would've spent more time with the people I cared about. I wish I would've traveled more. I wish I would've had more experiences. I wish I wouldn't have worried o- about the dumb shit that I worried about." None of them say, "I wish I'd made another million dollars. I wish I'd, you know-"

   14. CWChris Williamson23:15

       Spent more time in Slack-

   15. LNLayne Norton23:16

       "... spent more time-"

   16. CWChris Williamson23:16

       ... or on Zoom or on email."

   17. LNLayne Norton23:17

       Yeah, exactly. And I had... Like, that sat with me, but I think this last year I kind of even really had an epiphany of like, "I don't have to wait to enjoy my life. It's okay to enjoy it now." And I (laughs) was having a conversation with somebody and, like, like, "What's your goals? Like, to build stuff up and make $100 million?" And I'm like, "No. Not really, 'cause I don't want to live a life like somebody who does that."

   18. CWChris Williamson23:41

       Hm.

   19. LNLayne Norton23:41

       'Cause I want my kids to like their dad, and I wanna spend time with my friends and do fun stuff, and, like, compete in powerlifting and, and do stuff that's fun for me. Because, like-What is that money even worth if you can't do the stuff that you enjoy doing?

   20. CWChris Williamson23:57

       In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. Trust is really everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say that they're top quality, but few can actually prove it, which is why I partnered with Momentous. One of my favorite supplements from them are their sleep packs, and they contain an evidence-backed blend of ingredients, including magnesium L-threonate, apigenin, and L-theanine in research-backed dosages. So, if you are struggling to get to sleep on a nighttime, if you're struggling to stay asleep throughout the night, or if you're not waking up feeling rested and revitalized in the morning, this is a great place to start. Dr. Andrew Huberman is actually the scientific advisor for Momentous, so if you've ever wondered what supplements he would create if he could or what he actually uses himself, this is the answer. Best of all, they offer a 30-day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Head to the link in the show notes below or go to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom for up to 32% off everything sitewide. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-R-T-E-N-O-U-S.com/modernwisdom. There's nothing sadder to me than seeing somebody that's quantifiably very successful, admirable, lots of reputation, status, money, acclaim, prestige, all that shit, and you look and you go, "You have no fun." Like, what's the point? Like, actually, what's the point? And there's some people, and I'm friends with a couple of them, for whom greatness, in its sort of success metric kind of way, is so important that they're prepared to sacrifice fun. And I'm like, all right. That- that's not necessarily the way that I'm wired, but that took me a little bit of time to realize that it's not the way that I'm wired because fun and your enjoyment of life does not appear on any observable metric that you can brag about to other people. It's not apparent in your Instagram followers. It's not apparent in your bank balance, but it's ... All of those things are supposed to be upstream from the actual outcome you want, which is presumably a life that you enjoy and that you're proud of, and that, in retrospect, you're glad that you lived.

   21. LNLayne Norton25:57

       And that, and they're not mutually exclusive either. Like, I, I think, um ...

   22. CWChris Williamson26:00

       You can be successful and have fun.

   23. LNLayne Norton26:01

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson26:01

       I don't know. Here's a question for you, and this is actually my number one question I wrote at the bottom of my end-of-year review-

   25. LNLayne Norton26:06

       Ooh.

   26. CWChris Williamson26:06

       ... at the start of this year-

   27. LNLayne Norton26:07

       Ooh.

   28. CWChris Williamson26:07

       ... which was, is it possib- possible to be world-class and have fun at the same time? The reason that that's an interesting question is that when you're talking world-class, you're, you know, top point, whatever, 0.01% within your chosen industry. If you are not prepared to sacrifice everything, you will be beaten by somebody that is prepared to sacrifice everything in that one domain. Now, the question is, what's the outcome you're optimizing for? Are you optimizing for sort of a well-balanced, holistic, integrated life, or are you optimizing for maximum success within this very narrow domain? If it's just that one, you're gonna get beaten by the other people, but if you can sacrifice a couple of percent in that for 50% more life enjoyment, to me, that seems like a trade that's worth making.

   29. LNLayne Norton26:56

       I may have a different perspective on this, um, and a couple of different angles on it. I think the first thing is, I look at it, if you're talking about, like, we've got a very narrow window of time, I think you're probably right. But I've just seen so many people burn out so fast and stuff.

   30. CWChris Williamson27:13

       Mm-hmm.
5. 35:10 – 41:16

   Best Diet for Fat Loss

   1. CWChris Williamson35:10

      getting back to diet.

   2. LNLayne Norton35:11

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson35:11

      Getting back to diet 'cause you're-

   4. LNLayne Norton35:12

      I went real meta on you for that one.

   5. CWChris Williamson35:13

      Not at all. Not at all. I think it's important. I think it's important for people to see how goals overall are sort of couched within a bigger ecosystem. Th- that, that stuff's really important.

   6. LNLayne Norton35:22

      Nothing exists in isolation.

   7. CWChris Williamson35:24

      Is there such a thing as a best diet for fat loss and overall health?

   8. LNLayne Norton35:31

      Okay. So if we look at the research, there are now two meta-analyses looking at various different diets and their effectiveness on long-term weight loss. And when I say meta-analysis, what we're talking about is essentially study of studies, where they're using different inclusion criteria and they're trying to compile a bunch of similar studies to see if we can come to a consensus, right?So one meta analysis looked at four different popular diets, another one looked at 14. And they ranged from low carb high fat, to low fat high carb, to everything in between. And when I say low carb, I mean ketogenic up to Ornish diet, which I think is, like, 80% carbohydrate. And what they found was over the long term none of them were any better than the other ones for long-term weight loss. And if we look at... Now those are kind of free living studies, so people say, "Well, you know, maybe people weren't sticking to those." There's another meta analysis done that's one of my favorite studies when we get in these arguments about low carb versus this, um, looked at equating calories and protein, varying carbohydrate and fat, and it's important to equate calories and protein. Obviously calories, if we don't equate energy, we're comparing apples to oranges. And then protein is thermogenic, so diets higher in protein tend to cause more lean mass retention, and tend to be more energetically expensive. So if we don't equate for that, sometimes we can see differences in fat loss even with equal calories. But when they do that, and they vary carbohydrate and fat, uh, this meta analysis used only studies where at minimum all the meals were provided to participants, so very controlled feeding studies where adherence is very high, uh, up to metabolic ward studies where they basically have them in food jail, and found that there was essentially no practical difference in fat loss between these diets. I- in fact, it actually slightly favored the low fat diets, um, but it was, like, 16 grams of extra fat loss per day. It was clinically irrelevant.

   9. CWChris Williamson37:40

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LNLayne Norton37:40

       Right? Like, I would never tell somebody, "Do that diet," because you might get, like-

   11. CWChris Williamson37:44

       Gain 16 grams of, yeah.

   12. LNLayne Norton37:45

       ... more fat loss per day. Like, do the one that you can stick to. So on a mechanistic level, we don't really see a difference in fat loss, and there doesn't appear to be, like, on the average, differences in adherence. The only time we really see big differences in adherence in studies is when there's some kind of support, like when they're talking to a dietician every month or every week, that sort of thing. That does increase, uh, adherence. But overall, no real difference in adherence rates. But when they stratify for adherence, so all these different diets don't produce differences in long term weight loss, but when they stratify for adherence, regardless of diet type, it's like a linear effect. And so what that says is the best diet for you as an individual is the one that you can adhere to consistently. And to lose weight, I like what Peter Attia says, he kind of puts weight lo- uh, types of dietary strategies in three different buckets. You have, uh, tracking restriction, kind of where you're tracking your calories or your macros and you're restricting that way; you have dietary restriction, where you're doing low fat, low carb, uh, clean eating, paleo, insert whatever type of diet; and then you have time restriction, so intermittent fasting, alternate day fasting, any sort of those buckets. And those are kind of your three strategies that you can, you can use. You have to do some form of restriction. All those involve some form of restriction. I like tracking macros and calories, because I am brutally absurdly consistent when I can kind of eat the foods I like but just track it. Some people hate that. Some people have a lot of anxiety around tracking, it feels very cumbersome to them. For me, it, it's like five minutes a day and it doesn't matter. Some people like time restriction. They do it and they go, "It didn't even feel like I was dieting." You tried it, you didn't like it, right? Some people, they like the dietary restriction. "Well, if I just eat these foods, I lose weight." Okay, cool. As long as any of those can be sustainable for you, you have to f- practice some form of restriction. But you should choose the form of restriction that feels the least restrictive for you, and also don't assume that it will feel the same for everyone else, 'cause this is where we get into the diet wars, right? Where you have people who have a diet that worked for them and now they're trying to evangelize everyone-

   13. CWChris Williamson40:16

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LNLayne Norton40:16

       ... and get them on their team. And it's, it's actually really... I've actually dug into the psychology of this a lot.

   15. CWChris Williamson40:21

       Sure.

   16. LNLayne Norton40:21

       Because after I've had so many of these internet debates I'm like, "Why do people get like this?" 'Cause I'm diet agnostic. I mean, I pretty much... I don't want to take credit for flexible dieting and i- if it fits your macros, but I would say that no one would argue that I was one of the main people who popularized it. I don't have IIFYM or flexible dieting in my bio. Like, 'cause I'm, I don't... Like, I recognize that that wasn't for everybody. But when I first started it, I was in bodybuilding, and I found that just I would try to eat clean but then I was binging every time I got exposed to, like, pizza or my friends would, you know, have a dessert or whatever, I was, like, binge eating. And I was, uh, I had this epiphany, I'm like, "You know, I'm pretty sure it's not, like, the, the... if I had one slice of pizza, that's probably not what's harming me. It's probably the fact I'm eating the whole pizza." Right?

   17. CWChris Williamson41:07

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LNLayne Norton41:07

       And so I just started allowing myself kind of what I wanted, but tracking everything. And all of a sudden, I got brutally consistent and started getting results very consistently.

6. 41:16 – 48:00

   Why People Are Tribal About Diets

   1. LNLayne Norton41:16

   2. CWChris Williamson41:16

      So why do you think it is that people are so tribal about their diet of choice?

   3. LNLayne Norton41:21

      So I foolishly believed, "Oh, this is the solution for everybody. This is why people can't be consistent." So it started out very innocently, and then, um, I think there's an insecure element of it, of people feel insecure about what they're doing and they're trying to get people on their team so they can feel better about it, I think-

   4. CWChris Williamson41:41

      Because th- there's an inherent uncertainty in any sort of diet, uh, science.

   5. LNLayne Norton41:45

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson41:45

      Yeah, okay.

   7. LNLayne Norton41:46

      And people are tribal by nature. And it's, uh, a little bit of I think what I like to call the Tim Tebow effect. So do you remember when Tim Tebow was getting into the NFL? So are you familiar with him at all? Okay. So Tim Tebow was a Heisman Trophy winner who, uh, played in the NFL for, I think, probably, like, seven, eight seasons.And the, the... If you listen to the critics of him, it was, "He has a horrible release angle. His mechanics are terrible as a quarterback. He really should be a tight end. He doesn't belong playing quarterback." And he had low accuracy and all this kind of stuff. Um, and the people who were on his side were like, "Well, he's a Heisman Trophy winner, and he's got a bunch of heart, and he works hard, and very positive guy." Like, he was also very religious, and he was very outspoken about his religiousness. He became very polarizing, not really for the, the things he said. But I looked at this with fascination because he had, he had won a playoff game as an NFL quarterback, and he, he w- he kind of had these games where he would just have horrible, horrible games, and then somehow at the end, he would will himself to victory, find a way to get to victory. And when the chips were down, it just seemed like that guy found a way to pull it out. So, I kind of became a little bit of a fan. He seemed like a very positive guy. When you knew people who knew him, they're like, "He's legit. He's a legitimately nice guy." And so I kind of was like, "Oh, I kind of like this guy." But then I would read the things that people would say that were negative towards him, and I would get kind of defensive about it. Like, well, hey, your... How many, how many playoff games has your quarterback won, right?

   8. CWChris Williamson43:21

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LNLayne Norton43:22

      But if you were somebody who was on the other side, and maybe you're not that invested in it, and you're like, "Yeah, I mean, this guy is not great. He's got good players around him." Like, you know, "Look at his arm mechanics. He's horrible." You know, it's, it's really bad. But then you've got this whole, like, group of people who are, "He's the best quarterback of all time! He should be the NFL MVP!" And you go, "Are you insane?" And so I think we drive each other apart with the strongest, like, we... We do this in politics, religion, whatever. We take the most straw man interpretation of the other person's argument and argue against that, and it drives us further apart. I mean, I can s- I have so many examples of this when I'll put up a, a... Just talking about what we were just talking about, saying, "You know, it doesn't look like fat loss is different when you equate calories to protein." And somebody'll say, "Oh, so we can just eat Pop-Tarts all day and lose weight." And I'm like, "I don't know where I ever said that, like, eating Pop-Tarts all day was a, a good strategy for weight loss."

   10. CWChris Williamson44:20

       Nut picking, yeah. We'll get back to talking to Lane in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Marek Health. I wanted to get my blood work done in America, and after I asked around, I found out that Marek Health is the most sophisticated and comprehensive service out there. I loved it so much that I actually reached out to the owner to partner with them, because that's how much I believe in what they do. You might have heard that I took my testosterone from 495 to 1,006 last year, and that was done with the guidance of Marek Health without putting me on TRT. Best of all, they walked me through my entire lab report and gave me actionable recommendations to improve my health and my longevity. They gave me suggestions for diet, for training, for supplementation, and if I needed them, pharmaceuticals. Basically, it's like having a super well-resourced blood expert in your corner at all times. Right now, you can get the exact same panel and medical oversight I got by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to marekhealth.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout for 10% off. That's M-A-R-E-K health.com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. So, two things that come to mind for that. There's an idea from evolutionary psychology called a failure of cross-sex mind reading, and it explains how men and women don't understand what the other is thinking from a mating perspective. So, there's, uh, something called the over-perception and under-perception bias. On average, men seem to think that women are more interested in them than they are, and on average-

   11. LNLayne Norton45:42

       (laughs) It's shocking.

   12. CWChris Williamson45:43

       Yeah, I know. Shock, horror. And on average, women seem to think that men are less interested than they are. So, when in a relationship, you say, "You know that your boss fancies you," right? To your wife.

   13. LNLayne Norton45:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson45:52

       And the wife goes, "No, you're being stupid." And he's like, "Fucking yes, he does." Right? "And I f- I know that he does." Either of you could be wrong, but I would bet on the guy being right.

   15. LNLayne Norton46:02

       Mm.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:03

       The woman that says, like, you know, the... Or th- your girlfriend that says something like, "I don't think that Caroline's that into you." And you're like, "No. You don't... See the way that she, like, looks at me and stuff?" And she's like, "She's just being friendly." It's like, "No, no, no, no. You don't get... Like, you don't get it." I would rely on the woman with regards to that.

   17. LNLayne Norton46:21

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:21

       So, the way that you see the world, because of your biases, the person that you are, your unique constitution, you use that theory of mind and port it onto other people as well.

   19. LNLayne Norton46:31

       For sure.

   20. CWChris Williamson46:31

       Failure of cross-sex mind reading. Now, this is like a failure of cross-diet mind reading.

   21. LNLayne Norton46:36

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson46:36

       Because your diet worked for you, you assume that it is the thing that will work for everybody else. Second point. I think that one of the big reasons why diet is such a breeding ground for very vehement, uh, uh, aggravating adversarial conversation is because implicit in your choice of diet is your health, and downstream from your health is your longevity, and downstream from that is when you're going to die.

   23. LNLayne Norton47:01

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson47:01

       So, I think that a attack on your diet is an implicit attack that you're going to die sooner.

   25. LNLayne Norton47:07

       Mm.

   26. CWChris Williamson47:07

       I think it reminds people... It's like a denial of death, uh, uh, uh, protection strategy, right? That, "No, no, no, no, no, my thing is right, and if you attack that, you're saying basically I've got it wrong and I'm closer, moving myself closer to death, or I could be moving myself more slowly to death if I changed it. Therefore, I'm..." There's a lot of existential, uh, passion that's tied up in that. Uh, and then that kind of gets folded into a broader conversation of if you... If I think that you're getting it wrong and you're popularizing a particular approach, that this has a blast radius where other people might-

   27. LNLayne Norton47:43

       Mm.

   28. CWChris Williamson47:43

       ... do your thing, which is going to kill them more, more quickly. So, I think that that, from a psychological standpoint, there's definitely two elements in the failure of cross-diet mind reading, and, uh, this sort of denial of death approach. I think that both of those are interesting. Another

7. 48:00 – 58:43

   Layne’s Thoughts on Weight Loss Drugs

   1. CWChris Williamson48:00

      interesting element, I just had a conversation with Johann Hari, who's written the book Magic Pill, about the dangers of Ozempic and, and, and-

   2. LNLayne Norton48:07

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson48:07

      ... and where that might end up. Give me your opinion on these new GLP-1 agonists like Ozempic.

   4. LNLayne Norton48:15

      I think I have a very balanced take on this. So if you look at the research data, I mean, they work. They work. They're very powerful appetite suppressants, and people on average lose about 15 to 20% of their body weight. Um, people have concerns about thyroid cancer. Um, those studies are in rodents. We know that less than 50% of those studies can translate to humans, and-

   5. CWChris Williamson48:40

      I think rodents also have a very special kind of receptor on their thyroid that humans don't have, and I think that the dosages that are being given to the rats are also-

   6. LNLayne Norton48:48

      Very high.

   7. CWChris Williamson48:49

      Yes.

   8. LNLayne Norton48:50

      Well, and- and- and this is, um, a whole... We could do a whole nother-

   9. CWChris Williamson48:54

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LNLayne Norton48:55

       ... like, section of how people cite studies, and people have no way of knowing, like, whether it was even a relevant study versus something that was, like, a- a very relevant study that was done in humans. Um, but there, so there's that, and then there's the, well, people lose more lean mass, we have to worry about that. If you look at the amount of lean mass that people lose while on Ozempic or GLP-1 memetics, it's very similar to the amount of lean mass that people lose when they just do diet with no resistance training or exercise. And so these studies so far really haven't combined those and looked at body mass.

   11. CWChris Williamson49:32

       Ozempic plus resistance training.

   12. LNLayne Norton49:33

       Correct. Um, there was a study looking at exercise plus Ozempic, and then people getting off Ozempic that showed that exercise, uh, basically helped people maintain their weight loss from Ozempic much better than people who didn't, uh, do exercise.

   13. CWChris Williamson49:50

       Because there's a rebound effect in many of the studies about Ozempic when people come off.

   14. LNLayne Norton49:53

       Yeah, yeah. A- and- and not probably for the reasons that people think. Exercise is good for weight loss, but not because of the calories burned, because you really have to do a lot of exercise to get a big calorie burn, but what exercise tends to do is actually synthe- sensitize your brain to satiety signals. So there was a very classic study in Bengali workers done in the 1950s, and again I may butcher the specifics but the- the crux will be right. They looked at sedentary, lightly active, moderately active, and heavily active, like heavy labor jobs, and then looked at how much do people eat. So there was no intervention, they were just looking at how much did they eat. They found from lightly active to heavily a- active, they pretty much perfectly compensated their... for increased energy expenditure by eating more. But sedentary was dysregulated. Sedentary ate more than lightly active, and I think more than moderately active. And so you have this J-shaped curve. So when you are sedentary, the research indicates that it may actually dysregulate your appetite signals.

   15. CWChris Williamson50:57

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LNLayne Norton50:57

       And so since many people are sedentary now, one of the things that GLP-1 does, if you listen anecdotally to people, is they say, "It took the food noise out of my brain. I stopped thinking about food so much." And I think it may be having, like, kind of that effect that- that, you know, sensitizing us to satiety signals, and GLP-1 is a satiety signal in and of itself in the brain, and also it slows down GI motility which makes you feel more full.

   17. CWChris Williamson51:26

       Mm.

   18. LNLayne Norton51:27

       Um...

   19. CWChris Williamson51:27

       What are you worried about?

   20. LNLayne Norton51:30

       So I think for obese people, I mean, honestly, for a long time, we have been waiting for this, and we're like, "When is the pharmaceutical industry gonna come up with something that helps solve the obesity crisis?" It looks like they got it, and everybody's pissed off about it (laughs) .

   21. CWChris Williamson51:45

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. LNLayne Norton51:46

       I mean, I think my concerns are the following. It still needs to be done with lifestyle intervention as well, um, especially if people don't want to be on it indefinitely. So if people... And listen, I'm not making a judgment towards people who decide that they're going to be on it indefinitely. That's... That is their choice. Uh, and honestly, like, despite the cost of it, it... if it gets people to lose the weight that it's been getting people to lose in the studies, it will save us tons of money. Now the government will probably go blow it somewhere else, but it will save us tons of money on healthcare. I- I more worry on an individual level that if we are not instituting good eating behaviors and lifestyle change facilitated along with this, that people will go from eating a lot of crappy food to eating a little crappy food.

   23. CWChris Williamson52:42

       Yeah.

   24. LNLayne Norton52:42

       And still not getting enough dietary fiber, uh, still not getting enough protein. And I think one of the things that happens is when you're not hungry, protein is probably one of the last things you're actually reaching for, and fiber is one of the last things you're reaching for.

   25. CWChris Williamson52:55

       Mm.

   26. LNLayne Norton52:56

       So I- I am on board with people, especially obese people, using GLP-1 memetics because it works.

   27. CWChris Williamson53:03

       Mm.

   28. LNLayne Norton53:04

       And it will save us a lot of money. And everybody's... Some people are like, "Oh, these things have all these side effects." Honestly, the side effects are pretty mild when you look at some of the other pharmaceutical drugs out there that have approval. I mean... I mean if the thyroid thing es- ends up being a thing, okay, but we have no indication of that in humans yet. The worst thing we're worried about is some people get nausea, um, have... maybe have, um, gastroparesis. There's- there's some people who have reported that. But name me one really effective drug that doesn't have side effects. I mean, this is... For every gimme, there's a gotcha.

   29. CWChris Williamson53:38

       One of the big pushbacks that Johann got in the episode that I did with him was, uh, basically this sort of a... like a... kind of like a naturalistic fallacy, I think, or like a naturalistic assumption. Um, we are offering people an easy way out. Why can't they just eat less and move more? These fat fucks, uh, uh, like you're supplementing w- uh sublimating willpower with this, you know, external thing which is helping them to, uh, uh suppress satiety, and almost like... kind of almost like they don't deserve to be thin. They don't deserve to lose the weight because they're not putting the work in. What do you say to those sorts of criticisms?

   30. LNLayne Norton54:22

       ... why are you so lazy that you need a car to go to work? Just walk there. It just take longer. So, uh, I think... Let me go back 20 years when I got to graduate school. I was very much of the opinion at that time, that if you were obese, it was because you chose to be and you were lazy, and obesity is a choice. I think there is personal responsibility to change if you want to change. But there is a lot more that goes into food than just, "This is a choice." This is, food is a pervasive theme throughout our entire society. It's not just, "Oh, I'm choosing this or this," it's, "This is how I connect with people." When was the last time you went to an event that didn't have food? When was it... Like, do you just, like, go out randomly with your friends and sit around? No, you, you go out and have a meal, you know. Um, and so one of the other things where that breaks down as well when people go, "Well, they just don't have enough willpower" is, I've met some really successful, really smart people who are obese. You're telling me they don't have willpower? I mean, maybe in that one area. There's also a lot of really in shape, shredded people who are in tons of debt. Wh- but, what, what, w- what happened with the willpower? Why isn't it translating? Because this stuff is more complicated than just a very black and white, just want it more.
8. 58:43 – 1:15:59

   Would Layne Recommend the Carnivore Diet?

   1. CWChris Williamson58:43

      You just mentioned there about the importance of dietary fiber.

   2. LNLayne Norton58:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson58:48

      What do you think about carnivore as a diet?

   4. LNLayne Norton58:51

      Speaking of extremes that hate you. Um, so I will give a, a devil's advocate argument for it, that any diet that is going to get people to eat less processed foods and more filling, satiating foods is going to be a diet that does better than the standard American diet. So I have no doubt that there are people who go on carnivore and they get healthier. The, the question really becomes, why did you need to do that? Could you do that and still have some dietary fiber (laughs) and get the benefits of that? Um, and so I have had carnivorists, carnivores, carnists (laughs) push back against me and say, "Well, dietary fiber is just, it's just filler. You don't even absorb it. In fact, in carnivore, I don't even poop as much because, uh, you know, I'm absorbing so many more nutrients and blah, blah, blah, blah." And I, I always find these really like Olympic level mental gymnastics interesting, because it's not like we don't just have tons of studies in humans looking at this, with actual hard human health outcomes. And what those, the what, the criticism of a lot of these studies is... Because one of the downsides in nutritional studies is, it's hard to do multi-year randomized control trials.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LNLayne Norton1:00:14

      Uh-

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

      You're going to lock someone in diet jail for three years at a time.

   8. LNLayne Norton1:00:17

      Yeah. I mean, I think people have this misunderstanding that there's just, like, this random pool of people that are test subjects for different studies that just sit there waiting patiently for the researchers to come get 'em, and that's their life's purpose. And it's like, no, there are people like you and me who see a flyer and go, "Oh, I'll try that." And, you know-... a lot of them drop out. Why? Because the more controlled you try to make it, the less likely people are to do it. I mean, a, a great example is people are like, "Why didn't they do more studies in body builders?" And I'm like, "'Cause they suck as test subjects." 'Cause what happens when you're a body builder who gets randomized to the low protein arm of a protein study?

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:55

      (laughs)

   10. LNLayne Norton1:00:56

       You're immediately dropping out, right?

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:58

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. LNLayne Norton1:00:59

       Or if you've got a bias, if maybe you think a low carb diet's really good, and you get randomized to a high carb diet, see ya. You know, so it's hard to do these for long periods of time and keep a level of control. So we have to rely on, a lot of times, shorter term randomized control trials looking at markers of health that are hopefully predicting longer term health outcomes, and long term cohort studies. Now, cohort studies are, uh, kind of an arm of epidemiology. You have your cross sectional studies which are, (clears throat) we look at this population and this population, w- who has a greater rate of X disease, and what differences do they have? Well, those are difficult because there's a lot of confounding variables. Cohort studies are a little bit better because what you're doing is you're tracking the same people over, say, 20, 30 years. You're not doing any intervention, but you're seeing, okay, these people ate more fiber versus these people, and had this outcome. Now, what I'll say is, the reason I became quite convinced of the healthfulness of dietary fiber is because ... Are you familiar with a forest plot? So a forest plot, um, this became famous 'cause James Wilks was on Joe Rogan debating, uh, the Game Changers a long time ago and kept bringing up a forest plot 'cause, uh, the person he was debating didn't know what it was. Uh, essentially, if you have a meta-analysis of studies, and you have a center line which means no effect, no overall effect of treatment, and then on one side of the line you'll have, favors X treatment, other side of the line, favors Y treatment, and then you plot each of the studies where they land. So if you have, like, this side is favors dietary fiber for decreasing cardiovascular disease, mortality, cancer, literally every study is on this side.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:02:50

       Positive?

   14. LNLayne Norton1:02:51

       Yes.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:02:51

       Right.

   16. LNLayne Norton1:02:52

       You might have some that, like, didn't show a significant effect or not a huge effect, but they're all on this side.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:02:57

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LNLayne Norton1:02:58

       Um, I am not aware of any cohort study that showed fiber or fruits and vegetables did not have at least a neutral, or most of them show a very positive dose response effect on mortality, cardiovascular disease-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:03:10

       What's dose response?

   20. LNLayne Norton1:03:11

       ... and cancer. So meaning, uh, if they do what's called a meta-regression, so they look at the different, um, levels of dietary fiber intakes in these cohorts, then try to compare that to their risk of mortality, cardiovascular disease, and cancer, they can basically say, for example, in one meta-analysis that was recent, I think it was with over a million subjects, for every 10 gram increase in dietary fiber, there was a corresponding 10% decrease in the relative risk of mortality, cancer, and cardiovascular disease. Now, before anybody goes, "Well, I'm just gonna eat 100 grams of fiber a day and live forever," we are talking about relative risk, and it's important to point out the difference, which a lot of people don't get when they hear these things reported on the, on the news. So when I say a 10% decrease in the risk of mortality, if we're looking at, say, and I'm just making up numbers here, but if we're looking at, say, a s- 60 year old person, and their risk of mortality in the next 10 years is 20%, right? It's probably not, it's probably different than that, but let's say it's 20%. A 10% relative risk reduction is an absolute reduction of 2%.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:20

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. LNLayne Norton1:04:21

       Because 2% is 10% of 20%.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LNLayne Norton1:04:23

       So for every 10 gram increment of increased fiber, they showed a 10% decrease in the risk of these different diseases and mortality. If there are other things that there are claims about, like for example, pe- (laughs) people on carnivore, it's so funny. They'll be like, "Why are you trying to, you know, discourage high quality animal protein consumption?" I'm like, "Sorry not to sound curt, but do you know who I am? Like, have you done any, like, background on me?" My research was funded, my lab (laughs) was funded by the National Dairy Council, the Ag Nutrition Center, and the National Cattlemen's Beef Association. If anybody has a bias towards high quality animal protein, it's me. I'm just not crazy. And when we look at, say, a great example is red meat. So even the WHO has categorized red meat as probably carcinogenic. Um, I don't necessarily believe it's carcinogenic based on the research that's out there. And the reason is, a lot of studies don't show that it's carcinogenic. A lot of these cohort studies don't see an effect-

   25. CWChris Williamson1:05:31

       Why is the WHO getting it from?

   26. LNLayne Norton1:05:34

       Well, I would say, the, the, over half of them do. But some of them don't. And if you look at the confounding variables of people who are high red meat consumption, it's not like we're talking about body builders eating sirloin. You know? Most of them are getting it from, like, processed sources of red meat.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:05:53

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LNLayne Norton1:05:54

       And, uh, red meat, one of the problems with these studies as well is if you are eating more of one thing, you're typically eating less of another thing. And actually, r- red meat intake is actually quite a good proxy for poor diet quality. So there was a really good study from, I think, Maksimova in Canada, Alberta, Canada in 2020, and they looked at trying to control for diet quality. So they did, uh, basically tertiles, so three different levels of red meat intake, with three different levels of fruit and vegetable intake, and looking at the incidents of cancer. And what they found was that at low intakes of fruit and vegetable intake, yes, there was an association of high meat, red meat intake with cancer. But at high levels of fruit and vegetable intake, and high levels of red meat consumption, the risk of cancer was actually lower...... than low red meat consumption with high fruit and vegetable consumption because people who are eating a lot of meat and a lot of fruit and vegetables, they're probably not eating a lot of low-quality foods 'cause you just don't have them, a bunch left in your diet-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:07:00

       Yeah.

   30. LNLayne Norton1:07:01

       ... for that.
9. 1:15:59 – 1:20:29

   Best Sources of Dietary Fibre

   1. CWChris Williamson1:15:59

      is ... Someone's listening and says, "Oh, I, I quite like eating meat. I- it's something that seems to work for me. I'm a body builder. I struggle to hit my protein, whatever. Uh, dietary fiber sounds useful and, and, and important." What are the easiest, best sources of dietary fiber that people can add into their diet right now?

   2. LNLayne Norton1:16:19

      I mean, I mean, the data on fruits and vegetables is, is great. Uh-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:16:23

      Are there some fruits and vegetables that are better than others?

   4. LNLayne Norton1:16:25

      Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, uh, I don't like saying better or best or things like that. Um, but I would say, like, berries are much more fiber dense than, say, like, bananas. Um, they tend to be also, like, lower carbohydrate, berries are. Um, apples, pretty good source, especially if you're, you know, eating the skin. Uh, that contains a lot of the, uh, I believe pectin. Um, vegetables, of course. Uh, cruciferous vegetables are very fiber dense.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:16:52

      That-

   6. LNLayne Norton1:16:52

      Uh, so, like, uh, broccoli, cauliflower, those sorts of things. Um, but I mean, honestly, I think the average American gets 13 grams of fiber intake per day, and, I mean, if you look at the, the drop off in mortality from going from, like, 10 grams of fiber a day to, like, 20 or 30 grams of fiber a day, you'd be getting your fiber up. I mean, there are some kind of sources that you wouldn't necessarily think about that are good sources of fiber. I mean, this is gonna get me in trouble 'cause people are gonna say I'm just a food shill for the diet industry. Um, but, uh, I mean, whole grains, uh, they're good sources of fiber, and if you look at the data on whole grains, mortality, cardiovascular disease, um, cancer. Again, you won't find any studies showing that they're negative for those things. Now, people will say, "Well, are you saying people go out and eat Lucky Charms?" No, I'm, I, I'm ... You know, I'm saying, like, oatmeal, you know, some cereals that are, like, more intact sources of fiber. But again, I, I'm, I'm somebody who's like, let's not let the enemy of good or better be perfection. Right? And there's so much, like, diet evangelism out there. Hey, if somebody eats a cereal that's fortified with fiber or some bread that's fortified with fiber, it may be not the best possible thing they could do. I'd rather them get, you know, fruits and vegetables. But if that's what they can do, then that's what they can do.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:18:26

      What about beans?

   8. LNLayne Norton1:18:28

      Yeah. Legumes, great source of fiber as well. They come with some protein as well. Um, yeah, all those are great sources of fiber. I mean, one that I-... use that is kind of non-traditional is air pop popcorn. I love popcorn, and it's actually very, very high in fiber.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:18:42

      No way.

   10. LNLayne Norton1:18:43

       Yeah, yeah. Like, um, you get a, a, I don't wanna say a cup, but like a, a serving, which might have like 50 grams of carbohydrate, will have anywhere, depending on the, the particular brand and source, like 10 to 10 grams of fiber in it. Uh, and it's nice in that it takes a while to eat, you know? Like, um-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:19:00

       Yeah, yeah. Super high volume for low risk. Yeah.

   12. LNLayne Norton1:19:02

       Yeah, you could have, you know, you could have a-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:19:03

       50 grams of carbs from popcorn must be a fuck-ton of popcorn.

   14. LNLayne Norton1:19:08

       That's a big old bowl, right?

   15. CWChris Williamson1:19:09

       Yeah.

   16. LNLayne Norton1:19:09

       Whereas, like, 50 grams of carbs from a sweet potato, I mean you can eat that in three minutes.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:19:12

       You know, from Haribo, you can eat that in a minute.

   18. LNLayne Norton1:19:14

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:19:15

       We'll get back to talking to Lane in one minute, but first I need to tell you about AG1. 90% of Americans are not getting the nutrients that they need every day to be healthy. We know that food is always first. Many of us eat well some days, even on most days. No one has the perfect diet, and science keeps showing us that our bodies need more nutrients and that they need the support consistently every day to build a truly healthy body and get your whole body operating in a higher healthy baseline. The average supplement is tested for 10 contaminants. AG1 is tested for 950, plus it's NSF certified for sports, meaning that even Olympic athletes can use it. Best of all, there is a 90-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and use it for 90 days, a full three months, every single day. And if you do not like it, they will give you the entirety of your money back. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Right now, you can try AG1 and get a free year's supply of vitamin D3 and K2, plus five free AG1 travel packs, and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drinkag1.com/wisdom. That's drinkag1.com/wisdom.

Episode duration: 2:27:40