Modern WisdomMale Inequality & The Fall of Men - Richard Reeves
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,007 words- 0:00 – 9:46
How the Conversation Around Men’s Issues Has Changed
- CWChris Williamson
Obama endorsed your book.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, that was a- a bit of a surprise. I mean, first of all, it was also a year late. I don't wanna criticize, I don't come out the gate criticizing, but the book came out in 2022. And so when his 2023 list came out, everybody who'd written a book in the previous year or so was like, "Would I make it? Would I make it?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
I didn't make it. I wasn't surprised. But then 2024 comes around. Ta-da, there it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Has that been the growth of this discussion about boys and men? Has it been one of those little compoundy things that didn't spike super hard, but has been building?
- RRRichard Reeves
I think so, yeah. What- My sense of this is that, I mean, even si- even since we spoke, when did we speak? Couple of years? A year and a bit?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, about- about maybe 18 months, a little bit more, between 18 months and two years ago, I think.
- RRRichard Reeves
I think even since then, the permission space around this conversation has widened.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
So, you know, just to- to be very autobiographical about it, when I tried to find a publisher for my book in 2020, I couldn't. I was turned down by every publishing house. Uh, at the time, it was just seen as, like, too controversial a topic to- to engage in, and then you fast-forward, and then you're on Bara- Barack Obama's reading list. And-
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- RRRichard Reeves
... whatever you might think about Barack Obama, he's not a reactionary. He's not seen as a kind of, like, men's rights reactionary type.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And so, that's obviously, as an author, that's a great accolade, because I do think his- his lists tend to be quite thoughtful.
- CWChris Williamson
Broadening the conversation to an audience that-
- RRRichard Reeves
But it's- It's more that. Yeah. It's- It's okay. And it very- it really helps me if I'm having a conversation with people who still sometimes understandably think this is a bit men's rightsy.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Really, the skepticism that people bring to the debate, which I not only understand, I actually have a lot of time for.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
I think if you're not a bit skeptical to start with, then you're probably not thinking that hard about it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
But then to say, "Well, Barack Obama's thinks the book's w- worthy of reading."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
It just helps to sort of take a little bit of the heat out of it. But I would just say that's one of the perhaps most prominent examples of a just general sense that the temperature around this conversation has gone down, even just in the few years I've been talking about it.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, we'll see what we can do today to turn that temperature up-
- RRRichard Reeves
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... a little bit.
- RRRichard Reeves
I knew I could rely on you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I'm here.
- RRRichard Reeves
I'll see you again.
- 9:46 – 20:54
Why People Have to Add Caveats So Frequently Today
- RRRichard Reeves
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm unsure about how I feel about this sort of like, uh, how would you say, um, cultural reparations or like sort of, uh, linguistic reparations that need to be done in that there's this sort of debt that was owed for a while, and now it can be repaid, and it's kind of carrying over. But you've-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... reminded me of a concept that I wrote myself only a year and a half ago, which is the soft signal of effectiveness. Triggering a tribal response is antithetical to having effective behavior and belief-changing messages. It's nowhere near as sexy to caveat heavily, but when it comes to important subjects, the most compelling arguments are sometimes the gentler ones. If you care about changing behavior, you'll dial back the aggression of your argument. I think that's exactly what you're talking about, soft signal of effectiveness. You even used the word effective, right?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Partway through.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You're 100% right. I think what my point here is that I'm not sure that the bar that these conversations often need to jump over in order to be seen as being sufficiently soft is... I, I feel like that is sometimes quite high that we're like, there is a, a, a long period of a, "And we're not saying this, we're not saying that," and the caveats to me become exhausting.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I incl- I'm again so, like, lib-cooked apparently, uh, despite the fact Ben Shapiro was on the show last week. Uh, I'm so lib-cooked that I'm, uh, uh, you know, a, a blue-pilled-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... like idiot that works for The Guardian or something by most people on the right side of the manosphere. Um, so I'm like, o- okay, I'm not, I'm not sufficiently aggressive for those guys, but I'm like ... So anyway.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, you can't, in that sense, if you, if you were to win, you'd have lost.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
The only way to have done it would have been to have ruined it all. So-
- RRRichard Reeves
You'd have been ruined, ruined it all. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So the, uh, the po- the other point that I have a, I guess, a, a unique challenge with or slightly unique challenge is the way that I present. So I look like the sort of guy that would absolutely come in screaming and wouldn't really be thinking about mental health, talking about emotions, talking about vulnerability-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, going to therapy twice a week for the last year, doing meditate-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Like that's not typically... So again, I get pattern-matched as budget Andrew Tate.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so there's a, an even additional layer of like, "And I'm not saying that such and such, and I'm not saying that such and such." It just-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, you're saying, "I know I look like this, but, but, but trust me."
- CWChris Williamson
"Give me a fucking break." Yeah, exactly.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. And I, uh, I, I do think it's a real challenge. Uh, the, you said something earlier that I wanted to pick up on-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
... which is this sense that you say...... one thing, uh, and it can kinda g- get picked up. And I will say that like, um, when I talk to people in more progressive spaces, just about particularly the more male-dominated kind of podcast space, and kind of including you-
- CWChris Williamson
Well-
- 20:54 – 36:24
Allowing for an Accuracy Budget
- CWChris Williamson
I- dude, I- I had this conversation. Ryan Long, a Canadian comedian, was sat there yesterday, and we were talking about this, this tension, uh, between, uh, positioning and optics, uh, and, uh, transparency and honesty. And this tension that you have between the two, like, what is actually going on and what- what do I need to do to put my best foot forward? He used this great, uh, example of, you know, you can be honest with your girlfriend and her family, but you don't need to tell them about the time you did drugs when you were in university on your first date.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you know, there are better ways to put your foot forward and not. And obviously, people get sort of slippery and slimy with that, and then it ends up being totally contrived, and it isn't- it isn't sort of honest or truthful at all. But there's a- a second element of what you were talking about, which is this, um, purity spiral that is sort of, uh, very much them and just tribal thinking. Eric Weinstein's got this concept called an accuracy budget. What he basically talks about is that if you're playing with ideas in public, you should be allowed to play with them imprecisely-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's so interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
... at times.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's a second element of it too.
- RRRichard Reeves
Huh.
- CWChris Williamson
So accuracy budget is one that here is an idea, and look, I'm just ... I have to ca- I say I'm brosciencing here. This is just my bro theory or whatever. That's my, like, "I'm not an academic." Rogan's-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's your caveat.
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly. That's Rogan's "I'm just a comedian," like, "Get out of jail free" card. So there's an accuracy budget, which is, "I have no idea if this is true, but I'm gonna have a crack at this as an idea." But there's also a precision budget, I think, which is when you're trying to communicate a thing, whether it's within the accuracy budget or not, your ability to get thought from brain out of mouth is also going to be imprecise.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, not only are you playing with ideas, practicing in public, learning out loud, doing this for the first time. You haven't ... Me and you didn't do this yesterday-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and say, "Right, and when you say that, I'm gonna say this and do it ag-" It's like, no, this is just happening. This isn't a comedy set. So you'll make natural errors when you're just coming up with ideas, but you'll also make even more natural errors when you're just trying to communicate them.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But there is no-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
There is no part of anybody who slips up, and this is both left and right. There is no part of anybody that slips up where it is not seen as complicity. It's- it's never seen as accident.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's always seen as, ah, that dude.
- RRRichard Reeves
It's the real you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. Homophobe bigot. He's a misogynist.
- RRRichard Reeves
The veil dropped.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, exactly.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
As opposed to, how many times have you spoken imprecisely?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How many times have you got this thing slightly wrong? And I think really the issue isn't that you have a- a different opinion or an impro- imprecise opinion. It's that you have a different opinion to the person who's saying it. It's like, "I don't like him. I think- I think he might be talking about something else that's here." And if I can throw a bit of shade at him, that's gonna be hard slime to wipe off.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- 36:24 – 41:50
Advice for Handling Inflammatory Topics
- CWChris Williamson
that you've been talking about a very inflammatory, very, in some ways, unpopular topic for quite a while and trying to do it, what's your advice to people to both send and receive information that is maybe a little bit, uh, inflammatory?
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, the first thing is to add the caveat. So we've already talked about that. So in the case of gender, as I've said, I think that when I genuinely think there is still an issue facing women and girls, or there has been, I don't make them up. Like I genuinely believe in them, right? So I've argued very strongly that we should be doing more to get women, more women into politics in the US, for example, right? I think that's, I think that's a problem. I wouldn't say if it wasn't. So I'm not... It's not ersatz. Um, so I think that's-
- CWChris Williamson
What's ersatz?
- RRRichard Reeves
Made up. Uh, so fake.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
Um, but the other thing is trying to be as fact-based as possible, right? So it's not like you can get all the facts correct, but just start empirically. So just start with, here are some facts. Whe- whatever the issue that's on, but in my case, I'll be talking... So, so I'll lay out the education data, I'll lay out the mental health data, I'll lay out the employment data, I'll lay out the stagnant earnings. So here's some charts, here are some facts. In fact, one of the mottos for my new institute is keep it boring. And my son said, "Well, you are the man for that job, Dad."
- CWChris Williamson
Ah, very good.
- RRRichard Reeves
Very good.
- CWChris Williamson
Spoken like a true British son.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RRRichard Reeves
I was very proud of him. Yeah. You're the man for that job, Dad. Like, good. That's good.
- CWChris Williamson
Could have been a wreckage of baseline.
- RRRichard Reeves
That's funny, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Um, but I do think there's something about try to be as fact-based as possible. It's not that everyone has to become the... It's not an experts only thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
But it is to try and be as truthful as possible about it. Try and say, well, this is what, here are the facts as I see them. Don't be zero sum. So don't say, in order to do X, we have to kind of not do Y, and try to be solutions-focused. One of the things that I think really helps is if you, if you persuaded people to come along, then you wanna say, "So that's why I think we might wanna try X," or, "I'm really inspired by that program over here," rather than just like, "So that's terrible, isn't it?" Right? And the kind of competition for the who can conjure the greatest dystopia is kind, kind of boring at a certain point. So although I think there are some deep problems here, I'm also pretty hopeful that we could find solutions to them, and I try to lead on that and say... And that's why I think, for example, we should do something to encourage more men into teaching, which is what one of my, my own sons has just done.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? So rather than just lament how badly boys are doing in school, what about some more male teachers? What about some more technical high schools? What about some more hands-on play? Actually, what, what-
- CWChris Williamson
What about redshirting? What-
- RRRichard Reeves
What about giving them an extra... What... We're doing some work right now on like sport, the decline in sports participation among boys especially. Like what about that? What about paying coaches more so that actually we have more coaches in our schools, et cetera? What about, what about, what about? And I think that changes it too, because the, the intellectual glamour of being negative about stuff all the time wears pretty thin after a while. And people, people I think are quite hungry for a more positive conversation.
- CWChris Williamson
I think so too. The, there's something called the cynical genius illusion.
- RRRichard Reeves
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You might be familiar with.
- RRRichard Reeves
No, I haven't heard of that.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so a lot of the time people think that cynics are smarter.
- RRRichard Reeves
Oh, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-
- RRRichard Reeves
I hadn't heard it put that way. Yeah.
- 41:50 – 48:18
Why is Advocating for Men So Difficult?
- CWChris Williamson
really zooming out. Why is advocating for men so unpopular? Why is it, why is it so difficult just from your experience?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a... I think in some cases it's a classic example of vicious circle, which is where if the only people who feel comfortable advocating for men are the ones who are more likely, everything else equal, to have a more reactionary view of women, then that means that people won't want to enter that space. And so right now-
- CWChris Williamson
Discourages reasonable conversation.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. It's hard, it's hard, it's hard given that people's prior views...... about this to enter that space without immediately ra- uh, arousing suspicion. And this is why, again, why I'm not- I'm not as troubled as some other people are by the caveats, and by the kind of warm up, because what-
- CWChris Williamson
I fear you're slowly changing my mind about it as well.
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, what- here's what I th- here's the way I think about this now, and I- I've- actually, I will say this. I would say that the amount of caveating that I have to do is going down.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, that's-
- RRRichard Reeves
Quite significantly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Which-
- CWChris Williamson
We could get a ChatGPT to probably do an assessment.
- RRRichard Reeves
It's like a good... I, I just, I'm just thinking about it now, like, when I give talks about the work I'm doing, or I'm on podcasts, or I'm fig- I feel like I used to sp- have to spend more time doing that than I do now. If people are like, "Yeah, we all know that boys and men are struggling. Tell us how," right? I feel like as we win the argument, as it becomes more of a mainstream thing, the need to do that will get lesser. So in some ways, my success will be measured by the realization-
- CWChris Williamson
How direct you can be.
- RRRichard Reeves
... I'm not having to do it anymore, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
How much do you think, how much do you think is, uh, progress that you're making, uh, culturally around the conversation, and how much is bravery, uh, personally as well? Bifurcating those may be a little bit difficult. But you're going like, "I've, I've kind of pushed..." Maybe you could've done this earlier, but you're sort of treading on th- uh, thin ice and you're going, "Am I, can it hold my weight? That was okay. Can it hold my weight here? Yeah, that's okay. Can it hold my weight here?" And maybe the ice is changing in thickness, or maybe you're just becoming a little bit less risk-averse, too.
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, I think the ice is getting thicker.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
Because I'm thin- I, I'm tr- I, my risk aversion is, I think, I'm ho- trying to hold it constant, because that's what the mission requires.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
I actually can't run a significant risk because my reputation, the reputation of my, of the institute, and to some extent-
- CWChris Williamson
The downstream movement.
- RRRichard Reeves
... yeah, I d- I- it would be affected by it. So, and actually I do... There's this, uh, uh, book from a friend of mine, Yuval Levin, who's at American Enterprise Institute, had a big impact on me. And what he talks about is, what does the role you're currently doing require of you? And so it's like, how do you think about... What is someone in... What i- how is someone in my position supposed to behave, right? So-
- CWChris Williamson
Very good.
- RRRichard Reeves
And he talks about the difference between institutions that are platforming and those that are forming. And his view is that institutions form- should form you, right? They should shape you. So to become a member of Congress, you go in, and it, and it shapes you. And you're like, "Okay, I'm a member of Congress now, and so here are the rules and here's how I'm supposed to behave, and here's the kind of decorum, and here's what people are gonna expect of me in this role," rather than a platform, which is just like, "I go on there, and yay, I'm on the TV all the time now, and this is great for my career," et cetera.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-Hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And so this question that he says you should always ask is, what does my current role require of me? And my current role, as the director of a think tank on boys and men and someone talking about this, requires something different from me than if I was in a different role.
- CWChris Williamson
A podcaster.
- RRRichard Reeves
And, and what I also, what I also find as important about this is to recognize that division and recognize that everyone can, people can have different roles to play.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? And to honor those roles, but to be clear what your role is in that conversation at any particular point in time.
- 48:18 – 1:02:09
The American Institute for Boys & Men
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, you mentioned the institute. I don't think you'd launched it...
- RRRichard Reeves
No.
- CWChris Williamson
... the last time that you were on. What have you learned since launching the American...... Institute for Boys and Men. Fuckin'-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes!
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, you got it.
- RRRichard Reeves
AIBM. Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
It's catchy.
- RRRichard Reeves
Not many people get it, actually, so that's great. Um, what I've learned, that it takes the IRS a long time to give you 501 (c) (3) (laughs) status.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that?
- RRRichard Reeves
So, uh, we're a 501 (c) (3) , which is charity, basically. It ta-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Is that the same as a nonprofit or no?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. But it's-
- CWChris Williamson
All right.
- RRRichard Reeves
... it's as legal s- it's a legal status for the organization. And so, um, I apologize to any of them from the IRS that's listening, that was n- I love the IRS.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I also love the, uh, immigration-
- RRRichard Reeves
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the immigration s- what is it? NCIS or whatever it is.
- RRRichard Reeves
Ah, yeah. Um, well, first of all, uh, because of the conversations I was having, like, with you and with others, it became clear to me that this was an institutional problem, not just an intellectual problem.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And by that what I mean is, that you actually do need to be producing research. You do need to get the numbers out there. You do need, like, to be in that space. Because there's a lot of organizations that do a really good job on behalf of women doing that. And- and drawing attention to an issue, in COVID or whatever it is, with research which then, uh, gets media attention. And because there just weren't any (laughs) institutions doing that for men, boys and men-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
... those issues weren't getting the same attention. And so, at some point, I felt like I need to institutionalize this. So, that's- that's the insight that led me to decide to form a whole new organization. Because, you know, obviously we need more think tanks, Chris. That's really what the world needs, is another thing, uh, thing-
- CWChris Williamson
Said the guy that used to live in Washington, DC.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. And I-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RRRichard Reeves
... have to say that, like, in this case, I did feel like it was justified in terms of just this gap, this vacuum that's- that's around boys and men.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
The other thing I learned was, it's hard to recruit women to come and work for an institute for boys and men. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting.
- RRRichard Reeves
... the associate director of our, uh, institute, Alana Williams, uh, is currently the only woman, uh, in our team. We're only six. Um, uh, again, the same would be true the other way round.
- 1:02:09 – 1:06:04
What is Causing More Men to Commit Suicide?
- CWChris Williamson
or what are you attributing this increase in young male suicide to?
- RRRichard Reeves
You've talked about the sedation.
- CWChris Williamson
Male sedation hypothesis, yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, which I find very interesting, which is around, obviously around... It's about drugs, but it's also about pornography and video games. And I think it's consistent with this idea of a retreat, uh, and a- and a kind of pulling away from the difficulties and challenges of modern society. I think that's number one. And it's very interesting if you look at drug poisonings, which is separate from suicide, one of the reasons that's risen so much among men, and perhaps we can talk a bit about that, um, is because, uh, the sorts of drugs that the men are taking, they are very often taking them on their own. So there's no one there to revive them. This is not... These are not party drugs. These are not the drugs that the kids were taking when you were doing y- your job as a bouncer, right?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RRRichard Reeves
This is not, "Let's take this and go out and have a, you know, have a good laugh." This is... These are drugs of re- retreat. And my sense is that among many young men that they don't feel that sure about the extent to which they are needed and valued. And in the end, that seems to be the best predictor in the end that some will take their own lives is that they have come to believe that the world will be better off without them or that they're kind of not needed. I think one of the best protectors against losing a life to suicide is a real clarity that the world needs you. Right? That your absence from the world will be bad. And increasingly, I think particularly young men without much economic power, perhaps not quite sure where to go, what to do, do end up being unconvinced that the world is actually better off with them than without them. I- I- I think that the state of feeling unneeded is literally fatal, uh, through drugs, through suicide, et cetera. And also just, like any society where we f- where anybody ends up feeling like, "We're not sure we need you," that you might be a bit surplus to requirements (laughs) is just... That's- that's the society that's morally failing, and that's the sense that quite a lot of young men have now, uh, which is just this uncertainty. So these... This would not be particularly kind of young men, but I think it speaks to the issue about neededness, which is that the suicide rate among, um, men is four times higher than among women at every age group. But if any of you look at the specific cohort of divorced men and women, it's eight times higher among divorced men than divorced women. It doesn't really go up among divorced women, but it really goes up among divorced men. And a plausible explanation for that, I think, is just the sense of like, "Well, I... Am I needed? Am I connected? Do I have a sort of sense of responsibility and obligation? Am I tied in to some s- to some relationships that kind of make it clear?"
- CWChris Williamson
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- 1:06:04 – 1:22:09
How Men & Women Experience Neededness Differently
- CWChris Williamson
Well, one of the problems that divorced men have is that their ability to hold onto their social networks, especially when they get married, uh, degrades. Guys just suck at-
- RRRichard Reeves
Huge.
- CWChris Williamson
Th- They- They suck at keeping their friends.
- RRRichard Reeves
They do.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-
- RRRichard Reeves
Wife- Wifeless men tend to be a bit of a mess-
- CWChris Williamson
But the- The-
- RRRichard Reeves
... on average.
- CWChris Williamson
W- When men get married, they let their male friends drop or their- their, uh, previous single male friends drop. They then absorb the wife's friend groups. "We're going round to such and such a-"
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... person's house."
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You kind of become friends with the husband.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But-
- RRRichard Reeves
And then you realize when you get divorced that they were her friends all along.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Yes. Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Everybody was linked-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... through the wife, not through the husband.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I think, uh, this conversation around neededness, uh, like the...... you need to be needed-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, was something I really, really wanted to get into. I think, um, very few times maybe ever in human history, but certainly in the modern world, has anybody asked the question, what does it mean to be a woman in the modern world?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What does it mean to be a woman? Sort of the role is kind of, in many ways, for women, both the, uh, mothering side or the career focus side, sort of, I guess, the two main skews that women have in terms of life direction now. Um, recent opportunities socioeconomically to be independent financially, to achieve qualifications, to do all of those things, this is a sort of a big novel, shiny new opportunity-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that lots of women have got. That's evident. Like, "I'm kind of, uh, liberated, I'm independent, I'm doing it on my own. I'm sort of chasing after these things." Like, that's you, you're kind of breaking new ground. It's revolutionary in a way. It's sort of frontiering, pioneering type stuff.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 2:56:23
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