Mark Manson - 11 Uncomfortable Truths About Life | Modern Wisdom Podcast 340

Mark Manson 0:00 You wonder why you're single-

Chris Williamson 0:01 (laughs)

Mark Manson 0:01 ... decade after decade. It's 'cause you don't prioritize your relationships. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:06 First one, you don't attract shit into your life, and it's not the universe's fault. You probably just suck at boundaries.

Mark Manson 0:12 (laughs) I was probably, I was probably a little bit bitter on Twitter when I wrote this one. (laughs) It's just, like, all these contrarian assholes-

Chris Williamson 0:21 (laughs)

Mark Manson 0:21 ... thinking they're so much smarter than everybody else.

Chris Williamson 0:24 (wind blowing) So you are as much of a fan of truth bombs and red pills and uncomfortable insights as I am. So what I've done is I've scraped your social media from the last few months and pulled out some of the best ones, and I've kept some absolute corkers for the end. But before we get into

Chris Williamson 0:42 going through those, you're writing a book with Will Smith, or you're producing, releasing a book with Will Smith.

Mark Manson 0:48 Yeah. So, I mean, my part's kinda over. Um, but yeah. He, he and I linked up in 2018. He wanted to write a kind of a memoir/life lessons, kind of from his career and his life, uh, and he was looking for a co-author. And so he and I just hit it off, had good chemistry, um, and it was... I was, I, you know, I was a little bit hesitant at first. You know, I was like, "I, I don't wanna do this just 'cause it's a celebrity," you know? "I don't wanna be part of, like, a PR puff piece." Um, you know, it needs to be real, it needs to be raw. Like, there needs to be a good reason behind it. And when I met him for the first time and I asked him why he wanted to do a book, he, the first thing he said is he said, "Look, like, my whole career I've been, like, hiding myself." Um, you know, as a, as a, as a huge celebrity, like, you hide yourself from the world. You, like, everything is polished and pristine and kind of catered for the viewer. Um, he was like, "I want, I wanna put the real me out there." And, um, I was like, "Fuck yeah, dude. I'm on board." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:00 What's it like working with Will Smith?

Mark Manson 2:03 Honestly, man, he is, uh, he's a dream. Like, he... A- and I've heard this is not the case with a lot of famous people, but he, he is honestly one of the easiest people to work with. He's really professional, he's super nice, um, very smart, very down to earth. Uh, we honestly, like, we just had a blast. Like, we just, we just hung out. He took me to all these crazy fucking places that he was going to, and uh, and we'd just sit around and, like, talk about his life and talk about his ideas. And it w- it was easy for me 'cause I just, I just sat there and listened and then I got, I, like, basically just pick out, like, his greatest hits, you know? Like, like, "Oh, that, that's a really good one. We'll use that," you know? And, um, so that was it. You know? And then I did the first draft and th- and he's done the, uh, he kind of did a revision of that draft and-

Chris Williamson 2:59 Oh, that's cool. So you-

Mark Manson 3:01 ... kind of-

Chris Williamson 3:01 ... you sort of ghost wrote it and he edited his own work, kind, kind of?

Mark Manson 3:07 Yeah. Like, we did the outline together and, and kind of came up, like, agreed on the structure. And then I, I did that, the first draft-

Chris Williamson 3:16 Yeah.

Mark Manson 3:16 ... which is g- generally a more agonizing draft. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:19 (laughs)

Mark Manson 3:20 Um, and, uh, and then, yeah. And then he kind of revised his voice onto it and added little details and, you know, style, stylistic things, and stuff like that. So, uh, it's great. I'm super excited. I'm excited for him, um, I'm excited for me. Like, it's, it's a really cool book, and, um, uh, I'm proud of it. So it comes out November 9th. Or ******.

Chris Williamson 3:43 That's sick, man. Pre-order link will be-

Mark Manson 3:45 It's interesting.

Chris Williamson 3:45 I'll make sure the pre-order link's in the show notes below. Um, yeah-

Mark Manson 3:48 Cool.

Chris Williamson 3:48 I, I think more sort of heroes of Hollywood, you know, obviously McConaughey released his Greenlights this year and that's absolutely smashed it, and kind of added value. It wasn't just a, as you said, this sort of puff piece about, "I'm a rich, famous person. You should find out about my life." Like, it's actually adding genuine value.

Mark Manson 4:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:07 And yeah. I, I mean, I'd, I'd learn shit from Will Smith. I feel like I've got stuff to learn from him.

Mark Manson 4:13 Yeah. I, I... He's got a lot to share, man. Um, I-

Chris Williamson 4:16 Did he impact... D- given the fact that you've sort of learned a lot about this world, sense-making, and kind of understanding the way that the world works, did he impart sort of lessons or change your worldview profoundly at all?

Mark Manson 4:28 He was very impactful on me in, in kind of a slightly different way. I mean, I'll, I'll say this. When I met him and he really started sharing his story, like his childhood and growing up in West Philly and, you know, like, being a rapper in the, in the '80s, like, it... I quickly realized that this is one of the most emotionally resilient people I've ever met. Like, the, the stuff that he went through, um, and, and not only, like, went through it but surmounted it and then came out the other side like a, a positive, healthy person, um, is just incredible. Like, it's, it's a real, there's a real kind of survivorship aspect to his story that I think, uh, most people don't know about him. Like, people don't realize that. Um, and so th- that really excited me from kind of a writing standpoint. And, you know, being in the personal development world, like, that's, you know, we kind of, like, live and breathe stories like that. Um, so I'm super excited about that. But in terms of, like, how he affected me personally, actually most of what I learned from him was very much, uh, kind of, like, professional based. You know, like, um, seeing the way he built his team and the way he thinks about, you know, creative projects or collaborating with people, seeing the way he deals with his fans, um, kind of just hearing his ideas of, like, on just, you know, being famous or being a thought leader or being somebody who people, like, being a role model, um...... you know, this is a guy who's done that at the highest level for 30 years now. And so for me, you know, I'm still a fairly young guy, my career just kinda took off, uh, four or five years ago. Um, it was like a master class of just, you know, how to, like, be a professional in a creative industry, and, um, and how to, like, handle success well and maintain success and, and work with people. It, it was great.

Chris Williamson 6:32 That really is pretty invaluable, right? Because as you get further and further up the totem pole of success and away from the normal distribution of normal, right? There's-

Mark Manson 6:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:42 Who the fuck's teaching Mark Manson how to deal with fame, you know?

Mark Manson 6:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:45 Like the guy that, the guy that sold 13 million books. Like who's, who's the one that's like, "Oh yeah, I'm five steps ahead of you, mate. Like, you know, hold on to the coattails. Good luck."

Mark Manson 6:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:54 There's a very, very small number of people that can do that, and I think, um, I heard... Recently, Rogan had a reverse interview with, uh, I can't remember the pair. They're really good podcasters, actually. They sat him down in his own studio and, and interviewed him, and you find out he, he has the same challenges. And yet, you're talking about probably perhaps the most influential person in America, one of.

Mark Manson 7:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:15 And he's like, "I haven't got a fucking clue what I'm doing." He doesn't even have a PA.

Mark Manson 7:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:19 Like, you just realize (laughs) everyone... And again, that's, that's quite an interesting thing or humbling thing for normal people, "normal," to realize, right?

Mark Manson 7:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:27 That look, the people that you care about and think have got it all sorted out, they're just fucking about as well. Like, they haven't got a clue.

Mark Manson 7:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:34 No one's got a clue. Like if Will Smith's-

Mark Manson 7:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:37 ... like, the... If you have to get to Will Smith's level to have your shit sorted, there's no hope for any of us.

Mark Manson 7:42 Well, and it's funny, too, 'cause it's, you know, at this point, I've spent three years around him and his team, and I, I mean, I love his, the people on his... He's got great people who work for him, and I, and I, I really like them. But it, it's funny 'cause, I mean, they have the exact same challenges of like any business organization that you would ever come... You know, it's like the same kinda bullshit and miscommunication and like-

Chris Williamson 8:06 (laughs)

Mark Manson 8:06 ... you know, like egos bumping into each other and stuff, and it's, it's, um-

Chris Williamson 8:10 Haven't got the designs done on time, and too many emails, and can somebody set such and such up with the SSN3P server and all that bullshit.

Mark Manson 8:18 Exactly, exactly. You know, it's funny, I've got a, I've got a friend here in New York who's kind of... He's, uh, he's pretty high up in the, the VC world here, and, um, and he kinda... He just had, like, kind of a stratospheric rise in, in his career in the last five years as well. And I remember I was talking to him. So he, suddenly, he's taking meetings with, like, high-level people that, you know... He's getting invited out to, like, you know, meet with CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and, you know, being brought on, like, as a consultant, you know, 'cause it's like this huge company is thinking about doing a internal incubator for a bunch of startups within, and they, they need advice on like, "What's the best way to go about it?" So he's like meeting all these like CEOs and billionaires and stuff. And I remember I was having dinner with him, and he was like, "Yeah, I just, I think I realized, you know, I always just thought like if I just go one rung higher, like everybody's gonna know what they're doing. And now I'm like at the top of the ladder and it's just, it's morons all the way down." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:19 (laughs)

Mark Manson 9:23 It's like nobody has a clue, man. It's like it, it's, it's the difference between the top and, you know, maybe like h- you know, slightly above average is maybe you're like, you have 5% more of a clue, you know? That's probably it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:38 Fuck. Well, I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot recently. How many times do you have to disprove your own imposter syndrome with success in the real world before it fucks off for good? Like what's the nail-

Mark Manson 9:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:51 ... in the coffin of that? Is it 14 million books? Is it 15 million books? Is it like-

Mark Manson 9:57 Oh, I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:58 ... 17 s- like 7 million email subscribers? Like 8 milli- ? Like where does it stop?

Mark Manson 10:05 Yeah, I mean, I... If there's, if there's ever a number that, uh, brings total confidence (laughs) , I have not found it yet. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:17 (laughs)

Mark Manson 10:18 And it's, you know, what, and it's funny too because I, I, you know, I've still... I think I've got... My imposter syndrome's gotten a little bit better. Um, you know, I, I, I think anytime you have a sudden burst of success, you know, imposter syndrome's probably like a normal healthy reaction 'cause there's a little bit of like a, "Whoa, what the fuck? What did I do to deserve this?" You know, like that, it's kind of a natural... And then you start settling into it and realize, um, that, that, you know, you worked pretty hard and you, you did something great. Um, but like, I still have some of it, but it's funny, I feel like part of me is a little bit afraid to let go 'cause I feel like if I, if I let go and I'm like, "Yeah, I'm Mark fucking Manson."

Chris Williamson 10:59 (laughs)

Mark Manson 10:59 My books, like, crush it, you know? As soon as I... if I f- let myself fall into that, then I, I, I just feel like it's gonna backfire so hard. So it's almost like, um, it's almost like there's like an optimal amount of insecurity.

Chris Williamson 11:15 Yeah.

Mark Manson 11:16 Um-

Chris Williamson 11:17 People use-

Mark Manson 11:17 You know, it's like-

Chris Williamson 11:18 People, people use-

Mark Manson 11:19 It's like a little is better than none, I think.

Chris Williamson 11:21 Yeah, yeah. I would, I, I would say that that's not a bad way to look at it. People use, uh, imposter syndrome as a proxy for humbleness sometimes, um-

Mark Manson 11:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:30 ... because it actually manifests in a really sort of similar way. Um, and if it kind of constrains your ego, perhaps the, if the outcome is worthy, perhaps that's a way to look at it. Seth Godin said to me that, um, if you're doing something that you've never done before or that maybe no one's ever done before, of course you've got imposter syndrome. Why wouldn't you? By definition, you're breaking new ground.

Mark Manson 11:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:53 You're in an area of the terrain that you haven't yet-

Mark Manson 11:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:56 ... you haven't yet explored.

Mark Manson 11:59 Yeah, and I, and I think there's also, there's kind of like a, I don't know, like a more philosophical element to it too. You know, it, it's... I know so many smart authors... who work so fucking hard and, like, they write great books. And, and so there's a little bit of, like, a, "Why me?" Like, you know, it, it's-

Chris Williamson 12:19 Kind of like survivorship guilt type thing?

Mark Manson 12:21 Yeah, almost. Like, it's, it's like, like I think my, my books are good, but they're not, like, you know, 50X better than, like, this other guy, you know? But it, so why do I get 50X the result? Like, that doesn't... There's something that just seems, uh, like, strange about that. Um, so yeah, i- it's weird. It's a weird thing.

Chris Williamson 12:42 Right. Okay.

Chris Williamson 12:43 Uncomfortable truths. First one, you don't attract shit into your life, and it's not the universe's fault. You probably just suck at boundaries.

Mark Manson 12:58 (laughs) Um, oh, that's a good one. I like that one. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:04 I really do as well. But I don't talk about... So here's the thing, man. I don't really talk about boundaries that much.

Mark Manson 13:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:10 It's never really been one of those terms that I've brought into my lexicon of normal daily sense-making use. So what are you talking about?

Mark Manson 13:18 Sure.

Chris Williamson 13:18 What sort of boundaries?

Mark Manson 13:20 So, i- in terms of boundaries, um, I mean, i- in terms of... I usually use them in, in relation to relationships. Um, but it's, it's basically like understanding what you will and will not tolerate in your life. And, um, and I think a lot of people kind of get, you know, the stuff that I mentioned there, you know, believing the universe is giving you something and blah, blah, blah, like, a lot of these ideas about, like, law of attraction or whatever, they kind of get close to that. You know, law of attraction tells you, like, you know, whatever you think about, that's what you, like, manifest in your reality. Well, it's more like your expectations tend to partially dictate your behavior and then your behavior is going to partially dictate your reality. And, uh, and so if you're expecting to get screwed over all the time, then, uh, you're gonna behave in such a way in, in which you kind of invite it into your life. And, and where, and where this is just fundamentally a boundary issue is that if you, if you simply decide, like, "You know, I, I will not accept dishonesty in my life and I'm going to, like, enforce that boundary by, like, actually eliminating people who are dishonest from being around me," um, you know, like, that's actually a healthy way to manage your life. It has nothing to do with the universe. It has nothing to do with, like, laws of attraction or vibrations or energy or whatever. It's like, it's simply making a decision. It's deciding like, "This is something I don't want in my life, so I'm not going to allow it." Um, and it's, it's like, it's such a simple concept, but we s- we struggle so much with it. Like it, it's a very... It's one of those things that it's very easy to understand, but incredibly difficult to, um, a- actually, like, enforce.

Chris Williamson 15:08 Well, unless you've taken the full non-dual enlightenment red pill and you're walking around part of the, the substrate of the world, you fi- you f- feel like an actor, right? You feel like an agent that has thought and very much is the center of the universe, like it... Because you are.

Mark Manson 15:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:25 Everything emanates out and comes toward you. Even the light. You know, the sun doesn't shine anywhere except for on you as far as you're concerned.

Mark Manson 15:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:32 And, um, yeah, I think as well, think about how the reticular ac- activating system works. Like, if you tell some- as soon as you buy a new car, you always notice that new car everywhere. "Fu- everyone's got this car." No, you're just looking out for it. And the same goes with this.

Mark Manson 15:44 Yep.

Chris Williamson 15:44 Like if you prime someone, this is what guys like Derren Brown and these other sort of quasi illusionists m- mind, mental melding people do, right? They just prime people and then they put them into a situation and the brain does the rest.

Mark Manson 15:57 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's w- our, our perceptions are highly inaccurate and they're very much, uh, they're very much affected by the nature of our thoughts. And, um, you don't need a magical explanation for that. There are, like, very logical scientific explanations for that. (laughs) Um, but it's, you know, I think what, what matters is that people adapt their behavior to it ultimately.

Chris Williamson 16:19 Next one. Stop taking things personally. It's rarely about you.

Mark Manson 16:25 Yeah, I, I think this is, uh, this kind of harks back to what you just said about, uh, everybody's the center of their own universe. You know, like we all, we all experience everything through the lens of our, of our own physical experience. And so it's, it's kind of our default... You know, David Foster Wallace has this great passage in his speech, This is Water, where he, he talks about like everything that we experience, it's happening, it's experienced, like, relative to us, you know? It's impossible to experience something as somebody else. And so our default setting psychologically is to assume that until proven otherwise everything involves us, where this is just, like, a highly inaccurate assumption. And, um, and I, it's just something that I've alwa- I've found helpful throughout my life, um, e- e- especially, you know, it's something I really realized back when I was young and I was dating. You know, like, I'd, I'd go to a party or something and start chatting with a girl and she'd kind of blow me off and, you know, the natural reaction is to just assume like, "Wow, I'm such a loser." Like, "If I was a cool guy, like every girl would just immediately wanna go home with me." And it's like, no man, like you don't know what she's going through. You don't know where she is in her life. Like, maybe she just got dumped. Maybe she's seeing somebody else. Maybe she's leaving town tomorrow and never coming back. Like, you know, i- it's not only do you not know, but it's also none of your fucking business.

Chris Williamson 17:56 (laughs)

Mark Manson 17:56 Like, it's not. (laughs) It's like get, get out of your own ass and, and, uh, you know, empathize a little bit.

Chris Williamson 18:07 Well, we'd never claim that for ourselves, right? If somebody said, "Why did you cut me up in traffic?" You'd say, "Oh, well, I was late for this thing," or I'd do whatever. But when it's someone else, the fundamental attribution error kicks in and you think-

Mark Manson 18:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 18:18 ... "That guy, that guy did it because he's a prick, but I did it-"

Mark Manson 18:20 Yep.

Chris Williamson 18:21 "... I did it because I'm late for work and they should understand."

Mark Manson 18:24 Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, it's like when, when you reject somebody, it's like, you know, you're thinking, you're like, "Oh, I just don't really have time to, like, meet somebody new right now," but when they reject, it's like, "Ah, I'm such an idiot."

Chris Williamson 18:37 (laughs)

Mark Manson 18:37 "User. She's a bitch."

Chris Williamson 18:40 (laughs)

Mark Manson 18:40 "She's so selfish." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:43 Yeah, it really is always about you. Right, man, this is... I really enjoyed this one. So,

Chris Williamson 18:48 "You can't get far alone," and another one, "If you think it's you against the world, chances are it's just you against yourself."

Mark Manson 18:58 Yeah. Yeah, I, I think, um... one thing... I, I think... Look, look, like the world's an incredibly complicated place, and I talk about this in my book, Everything is Fucked, is that like (laughs) the world is... Sure, the, the world's fucked, but the world's always been fucked and it's always gonna be fucked. Like, there's no... Pick a place in history where things were, were okay. Like, there's literally not a single moment in history that things were okay. (laughs) And, and so it's just... I, I think just conflict and strife and corruption, like, these are just natural states of human society. And, and I, I've just found through the years and through experience and, and talking to a lot of people that, um, generally, like, the more zealous a person is about some sort of, like, global cause, about saving the world and, uh, you know, ridding the world of evil, um, usually the, the more fucked up that person is themselves. You know? Like, the, the more dysfunctional their own life is, the more dysfunctional their own relationships, more... you know, the more dysfunctional their own, uh, you know, ability to accomplish goals or, or get something done. Like, there, there s- seems to me to be, like, a one-to-one relationship between those two things. Um, so I, I just think it's... we tend to... like, when you become comfortable with your own flaws and shortcomings, you tend to be more comfortable with the world's flaws and shortcomings.

Chris Williamson 20:30 And what about not being able to get far alone? Obviously as a guy that was quite self-sufficient, dating and that sort of early life and stuff like that, what w- what happened there? How did you make that kind of pivot?

Mark Manson 20:43 Um, I just found that, you know, wherever you get alone, it doesn't... it's... it feels kinda meaningless. Um... For some reason, you know, a- and I think there's probably an evolutionary explanation for this, but it's... accomplishments, isolated accomplishments, um, feel very superficial, whereas, like, group accomplishments feel very profound and meaningful, you know. It feels much more powerful to do something as a team or to do something for a family or to do something for your, your partner, uh, than it does to just, you know, collect accolades for yourself.

Chris Williamson 21:26 I had Jordan Peterson on the show, and we talked about how to deal with the pain of losing friends as you get older. You grow, people drop away, the ones that were part of your life. And, um, it really struck me some of the comments from people. And I think this perhaps skews just because YouTube generally, um, invites a type of audience that's maybe a little bit more introspective and, and doing that kind of self-inquiry and perhaps is used to solitude in any case. But I was really surprised at how many people were, um, not bitter, but were a, a little resentful at the world and were kind of saying, "I don't need anybody. I can make it on my own. Friends just slow me down." Uh, a lot o- a lot of sort of bits and pieces of feedback like this.

Mark Manson 22:09 Mm.

Chris Williamson 22:09 And I thought, "Hmm, that's interesting," because these people have come because they know m- my content, a- and Jordan's as well.

Mark Manson 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:16 I don't... I don't think that either of us have really pushed that sort of a rhetoric. If anything, I've... both of us have said, "Try as hard as you can to find relationships that make you feel good." And this is something that's interesting where people like to talk about leaning into discomfort and finding the struggle and overcoming obstacles and stuff like that, but those are only within quite a narrowly defined domain. It's like-

Mark Manson 22:39 Sure.

Chris Williamson 22:39 ... I'll deal with the struggles, but I'll deal with them in the gym, or I'll deal with them in business, or I'll deal with them financially, or I'll deal with them existentially, or whatever it might be. And then you pull people outside of that and it seems like it correlates... u- uh, there is a, um, significant minority of people for whom one of the areas of discomfort that perhaps they're less comfortable with being uncomfortable in is building relationships-

Mark Manson 23:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:05 ... and so on.

Mark Manson 23:06 Yeah. It's, um... I used to be like that. And, um, I just found... it was funny because it, it... you know, like I just said, it's like the more... the further I did get by myself, the more pointless it seemed and, um, and the more I started to... you know, kind of, uh, lament my, my isolation, my social isolation. And I, I... you know, one of my biggest discoveries in my adult life is what you just said about, like, taking that same willingness to lean into discomfort in other areas of my life, to, to sacrifice and make commitments for my business, you know, the sacrifice, make commitments for my health or for my writing, like, apply that to, to personal relationships. Like, sacrifice and make commitments to, to my friends, to my wife, um, to my kids if I have them. Like... and as soon as I stepped into that, it's, like, the most meaningful and profound thing you can have. (laughs) Like, it makes everything else seem very trivial very quickly. Um, but i- it's hard to explain that to people. And I think a lot of people who are in that place, they're probably like me where they've... you know, their history... Like, I had never really had, like, a healthy close relationship with somebody un- until my probably late 20s. Um, you know, my family was quite dysfunctional. A lot of my friendships had let me down.... uh, my early relationships were very toxic and dysfunctional. Um, so i- it's, it's something that you can't really see until you get there, but... and it's so, it's hard to describe to people who aren't there, but, um, it's... I mean, if there's anything, uh, y- you know, I believe, and I know Peterson believes very, very strongly, like, it's j- it's just... there's really no point unless you're... there's really no point in doing anything, unless you're- you're doing it for- for some- something greater than yourself.

Chris Williamson 25:10 What's the first step for something like that? Or can you remember the s- first step that you took to transition?

Mark Manson 25:17 You know, I- I think... I think there is- there is a lot of... there's a certain amount of inner work that kinda has to happen first, a certain amount of, um, dealing with, you know, your own, uh, pain and beliefs and- and emotions. You know, I- I had to reach a certain level of, like, emotional maturity to... you know, and that's not to say that everybody who feels this way is emotionally immature. Like, people have different levels of needs. But, like, for me, it was... I was carrying around a lot of resentment and, um... and I- I... there was also a lot of... like, I took a lot of pride in bei- being able to, like, do things on my own, you know, the fact that I could pick up and go to another country for, like, three months and not tell a soul, and people are like, "Oh my God, how did you do that? Like, that's terrifying." You know? It's like there was a pride that I could do that. You know, but it's... after a certain amount of time, you start to realize that stuff like that is... it's kinda silly. It's ego-based, you know? And so it's silly. And, um, at some point, you just kinda have to get over yourself and realize that, um, i- it's... I think, I think as- as you get older or at- at least as I got older, you- you- you gain enough perspective to be able to look back and see like, "Wow, the five years I- I dedicated to that one thing does not feel important to me anymore." Yet, "Wow, I really- I really miss my friends I haven't talked to in five years," you know? (laughs) And th- then it starts, like, sinking in.

Chris Williamson 26:53 Might be something to

Chris Williamson 26:54 this. Right, next one. Next one.

Mark Manson 26:55 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 26:55 You're overthinking it because you assume you're more special than others.

Mark Manson 27:01 (laughs) Um, now, I- I'll- I'll add a caveat to that. See, this is the problem with social media is... and this... you always get in trouble with this on social media 'cause it's... you try to... like, social media is optimized for pithiness. Uh-

Chris Williamson 27:15 Narrow bandwidth, aye?

Mark Manson 27:17 Yeah. And, uh, you know, i- it's... uh, when you compress things like that, obviously, you- you start losing accuracy. Um, so stuff like this, I'll always get in trouble 'cause people will reply, "Well, it's not the only reason you overthink things." Well, yeah, you're right, it is not the only reason you overthink things, (laughs) but- but often, it's, um, it's a reason you- you overthink things. Um, you know, I- I think there's- there's something... anxiety itself, uh... and I am trying to think of a way to say this that's not gonna sound absolutely horrible. Um-

Chris Williamson 27:57 (laughs)

Mark Manson 27:58 (laughs) ... there's- there's a fundamental selfishness that kinda comes attached with anxiety, um, because when you're anxious, it very much... and it's involuntary, it's not- it's not that you're a bad person or that you are a selfish person, but it's... there's an involuntary kind of selfishness that comes packaged with anxiety, in that you become overly preoccupied with yourself and, you know, it's- it's this... you kinda become obsessed with, like, "Oh, what does he think about me?" Or, "Did the thing I say, was that stupid?" Or, um, "Am I gonna be a failure?" Or, "Is anybody ever gonna like me?" And it's- it's always me, me, me, I, I, I, I, I. And, um, it... there's a real kind of just... you know, I've found, you know, kind of dealing with some of my own social anxiety in the past, um, there- there's a really profound effect of- of... if you're able to, like, invert that focus, um, and- and kind of turn it more into- to compassion or empathy for others, start worrying about, like... wondering what they're worried about, you know? It's like if you're- if you're, like, the anxious mess in a crowded room, uh, who doesn't know anybody, like, maybe look around and wonder, like, i- you know, "Is it other people are likely feeling similar things?" Um, and it's just that- that simple ability to kinda step outside of yourself i- it often alleviates. Um, you know, it removes that sense of specialness, it removes that, like, "I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm the only one suffering this way. I'm the only one who understands what it's like." Um, and you start realizing that everybody else, like, has very similar problems or is thinking very similar things or worried about similar things. Um, you- you no longer feel alone in that suffering.

Chris Williamson 29:56 Well, the common thought raiser is, if you have a thought, assume that at least some other significant minority of people also have it, but the way that our emotions feel, right? They're like... they're like bestowed on us. They're like-

Mark Manson 30:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:10 ... curses, individual diseases-

Mark Manson 30:13 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 30:13 ... that have just been given purely to us by some higher power. And this is why when you actually think about how emotions feel, almost all of the stories that kind of ancient religions spoke about, you know, thinking about how the goddess of lust and- and envy and anger and stuff like that, like, of course it makes sense because it feels like it's so much more... the phenomenon of having an emotion is so much more than just the wiring going on in your brain.

Mark Manson 30:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:39 And that leads us to have that kind of very self-focused, neurotic, uh, view of the world, right?

Mark Manson 30:48 Yeah. Yeah, and it, it's, it's interesting too because I- if you l- generally, if you look at all the negative emotions, the negative emotions are very self-focused, you know. So anger is always like, "This horror, you know, I'm, I need to, you know, I need to... This horrible thing happened to me and now I'm angry." You know, anxiety is, "This horrible thing's going to happen to me." Guilt is, "This horrible happen- thing happened to me in the past," um, whereas if you look at positive emotions, it's, it's very out- outwardly focused. It's very much, you know, happiness or joy. It's, it's, it's kind of this like gratitude for the place you're in, the people you're with, the, the experiences you had, um, and I, I, I don't think that's a, a coincidence. So I think that that's, you know, there's a fundamental connection between those two psychological phenomenon, and it's probably not, not expressed super well in a, in a pithy tweet. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:51 All right, next one. Uh, the more we seek change, the more meaningless that change becomes. I didn't understand this one.

Mark Manson 31:58 Yeah, this one didn't go, this one didn't go over so well. This was one of those ones that I looked at afterwards and I'm like, "Ah, yeah, I probably could explain this better." Um-

Chris Williamson 32:06 Now's your chance.

Mark Manson 32:08 You know, I, I would say change isn't the right word. I think novelty is the right word. Um, I was trying to kinda make a point about thrill-seeking or novelty-seeking. You know, it's, it's... There's a diminishing returns to novelty-seeking. You know, it's like the, the, the example I always use is like the f- the first time you go to a foreign country, it's like this huge no- like, life-changing experience. Um, even like the tenth foreign country you go to is like a very exciting experience, but, uh, you know, country number 62 is kinda like, "Oh, okay. Sure, whatever." Um, y- you, you require... Generally, anything that drives kind of a sense of novelty or excitement requires like greater and greater quantities of that experience to, um, to kind of get the same f- the same feeling, you know, whether that's travel, or cocaine, or sexual partners, or money, you know, whatever it is. Social book sales, social media follower, you know? It's like whatever it is, whatever that, that dopamine hit is, um, there's always a diminishing returns to it. So it, so it... They, they make for poor longterm strategies.

Chris Williamson 33:30 The hedonic treadmill's a h- hell of a drug, man.

Mark Manson 33:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:33 Absolute hell of a drug.

Chris Williamson 33:34 Uh, right.

Mark Manson 33:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:35 To deny negative emotions is to ignore useful feedback from the world. So I wanted to ask how much we should notice our negative emotions if they're good teachers, because Buddhism would instruct us to not identify with them, and some of the good elements of Stoicism, which I know you have criticisms of, would also suggest detachment, don't fixate or suppress, you know? Um, how can you avoid denying negative emotions to acquire the lessons from them, but then also not identify with them too much? That seems like a little bit of an oxymoron.

Mark Manson 34:12 Yeah. I mean, I, I, I definitely subscribe to kinda the Buddhism/Stoicism school of thought of like, notice emotions, but don't, don't be dictated by them. Um, and I, I think it's... You know, one of, one of the things I'm highly critical of, uh, you know, kind of the whole positive thinking self-help genre, uh, sub-genres is that it, it's, it often gets interpreted by people as, as a s- like a simple denial of negativity. You know, it's like pretending like everything's great, you know? It's like the dog in the, in the burning house. Like, "This is fine." Uh... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:49 (laughs) I love that meme. There's so many uses for it.

Mark Manson 34:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:52 It's endlessly useful.

Mark Manson 34:54 It is. Um, you know, so, so the goal is, is to not deny. You know, I... People generally have two problems around negative emotions, is either they, they deny it in the first place or they indulge it. They kinda live in it, you know? So, um, they, they experience their fear, they experience their anger, but they like latch onto it and don't let it go. Um, and so the trick is to be open to it, but also part of being open is to let it leave when, once it's ready to leave. But I, I generally, you know, the, the argument I always use for, for kinda the d- denier positive thinking crowd is I always, I, I say like, "Negative emotions, like they e- they evolve for a reason." Like they-

Chris Williamson 35:39 Are there for your-

Mark Manson 35:39 ... they have survival purposes, um, you know? And so if you don't... Like, if you train yourself to never be afraid of anything, like you're, you're, you're gonna put yourself in some pretty dangerous situations pretty quickly.

Chris Williamson 35:53 Right, next one. Just because you're contrarian doesn't mean you're smart.

Mark Manson 35:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:00 (laughs)

Mark Manson 36:06 I love this one. I, I mean, I was probably, I was probably a little bit bitter on Twitter when I wrote this one. (laughs) It's just like-

Chris Williamson 36:13 (laughs)

Mark Manson 36:13 ... all these contrarian assholes thinking they're so much smarter than everybody else. Um, you know, speaking of McConaughey, like McConaughey had a, a... One of the parts I really liked about McConaughey's book is he had this whole section where he was talking about how like you need to know the rules before you can break the rules, um, which I, you know, I... When I was young, I was that, I was that guy who just broke every rule. I'm like, "Rules are stupid, I'm gonna break every single one." And, um, you quickly realize that rules exist for a reason, and I think...... the same thing can be said for institutions. It can be said for cultural norms. Um, it can be said for, uh, you know, manners or language. Like these things, they, they evolve and they exist for a reason, and so if you're gonna break them, you need to have a good reason. They doesn't mean they're always right, but like, the default assumption should be that they're right. It shou- the default assumption should not be that they're not right. Um, and so it's, it's correct until proven wrong, not the other way around.

Chris Williamson 37:21 Well, I mean, how much are we seeing this with the current debate over the COVID vaccine? Like-

Mark Manson 37:28 Yeah, I mean-

Chris Williamson 37:29 ... the most, uh, apparently the smartest people on the internet are the ones that have this super secret gate kept knowledge with regards to the COVID vaccine. And you think, 50% of Americans have had their first dose and 66% of y- British citizens have had their first dose. Uh, here's a thing that I found out, which is fucking brilliant, man. Only 20% of the UK population is on Twitter.

Mark Manson 37:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:56 So, even when you think, "Well, everybody thinks this," even if you were to max out everyone on Twitter to get agreement, you've only got 20%-

Mark Manson 38:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:05 ... of the (laughs) UK population. What the fuck?

Mark Manson 38:07 Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I actually just wrote an article about social media, uh, a couple weeks ago and I talked about this. Like, it's really fascinating when they analyze social networks, they tend to find kind of the same distribution, um, of users, and they call it the, the one nine ninety rule, which is basically 1% of the users generate 90% of the content, 9% of the users generate 10% of the content, and then 90% of the users generate basically no content whatsoever. Like, they're just, they're observers. And if you ask yourself, like, "Okay, who are the 1% generating the n- the 90% of content?" Like, it's a large percentage of those people are the fucking crackpots and-

Chris Williamson 38:53 (laughs)

Mark Manson 38:53 ... nutcases (laughs) , you know, and trolls. And it's, um, uh, you know, it's one of the, one of the big take home points in that article was like, like everybody needs to learn that social media is not reality. Social... I call it like social media is a fun house mirror of reality. It reflects reality, but its different parts are elongated and exaggerated and other parts are kind of minimized. And, you know, so it's... And, and I, I think it's we're not, especially kind of people in the media, um, or people who read a lot of news or tr- you know, follow the media very closely, like w- a lot of people have not figured that out yet. Like this is not, um, it's not reality. It's, it's a, it's a really skewed version of it. But yeah, I mean, w- coming from being, like an online brand or whatever myself, you know, one thing I learned very early on in my, early on in my career is like if you want clicks, like just be contrarian. Like, you know, it's like I, it's kind of how I got my start as a blogger. Like I'd, I'd write an article called like, you know, "You Are Not Special," and sure enough, it would get a shitload of clicks. Then I'd write another one saying like, you know, "Fuck Positive Thinking," get a ton of clicks. (laughs) Um, you know, so it's, uh, disagreeing with something or tearing something down is a great way to get attention, like our, our, you know, coming back to the human perception thing, like we are very biased to notice flaws and negativity much more easily, or like give it more attention or more importance than, um, things that are functioning correctly. Um, and, and the fact of the matter is, is like if you want to find individual flaws or failures or inaccuracies in pretty much every institution in the world, like you can find plenty of them. They're run by humans, so like of course you're gonna find plenty of them. But that doesn't mean we need to, like overthrow the world order or, like take down the government, take down the CDC or the FDA or like destroy the, the Fed. Like, all this shit that people, this like re- like legit revolutionary conclusions that these people are coming to, um, is, is a disproportionate response to, to the actual flaws in the system that they're exposed to.

Chris Williamson 41:11 Yeah. It needs to be iteration, I think.

Mark Manson 41:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:13 There's this Donald Knuth quote, which I always come back to, and he says, "Tradition is a set of solutions for which we have forgotten the problems."

Mark Manson 41:21 Yes. For sure.

Chris Williamson 41:23 And you just think if it's that w- fence in a field analogy, um, which now actually I don't think works. You know, there's a fence in a field and a liberal goes up to it and says, "We just need to tear this down." The conservative goes, "Well, hang on a second, we don't know why it's there. It might, it might function, might have a purpose." I don't think that that divide occurs anymore. I think that-

Mark Manson 41:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:40 ... both groups are now looking for revolution by, by any means. I don't actually know who is pro-institution anymore. Both sides have problems with the same things for completely opposing reasons, but the solution is the same. Tear it down. It all needs to fuck off. Um-

Mark Manson 41:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:55 Yeah. It's an interesting one.

Mark Manson 41:56 It's like the, it's like, it's like the right's like, "Let's take a chainsaw to it." And the left is like, "Fuck chainsaws. Let's blow it up." You know, it's like, "No."

Chris Williamson 42:01 Nuclear bomb. Yeah, precisely. (laughs)

Mark Manson 42:03 You know? And they're just arguing. They're like, "Chainsaws, bombs."

Chris Williamson 42:06 (laughs)

Mark Manson 42:06 "Chainsaws." But, uh, the, but the funny thing is, is like this comes back to like the social media not being reality. It's like th- there's a silent majority of people who do believe in the institutions. They're just not on fucking Twitter.

Chris Williamson 42:20 Yeah.

Mark Manson 42:20 Like, they're taking care of their kids. They're going to work. They're like-

Chris Williamson 42:22 Well, no. There's even the silent majority on Twitter probably also does as well.

Mark Manson 42:27 Yes.

Chris Williamson 42:27 And then... Yeah.

Mark Manson 42:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:28 Fuck,

Chris Williamson 42:29 man. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Next one. Next one.

Mark Manson 42:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:31 Um, "The secret to success is pain tolerance." Do you not think that success can be easy then?

Mark Manson 42:39 No. No. If it was easy, then everybody would have it, then it wouldn't be success. Um, 'cause success is by definition something that is, is, uh, um, you know, on the extreme, uh... Fuck, what's the word I'm looking for? Um...... it, it's something that, that, that's, you know ... Extraordinary means something that is not ordinary, it's like beyond ordinariness. So, i- i- i- if you were getting the same result everybody else got, then it's not, it's not success, it's not-

Chris Williamson 43:09 Mm.

Mark Manson 43:10 ... uh-

Chris Williamson 43:10 And I suppose that the success is a function of the discomfort to get there as well, right? It's the satisfaction of getting to a higher mountain is greater than that of getting to a smaller mountain because of the challenge that it took you to get to the top.

Mark Manson 43:22 Absolutely. I mean, it's people, like, like if you went and climbed Mount Everest and I went and climbed, like, whatever shitty hill is in Upstate New York-

Chris Williamson 43:31 (laughs)

Mark Manson 43:31 ... like, you know (laughs) , who's g- who's gonna be more impressed? (laughs) It's, it's, it's just, it's just how it works. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:43 Right. This

Chris Williamson 43:44 one, this one I really like. The only way to become truly confident in yourself is to be comfortable with what you lack.

Mark Manson 43:50 Yep. Yeah. Confidence is not hiding what we lack, it's not even ... and it's not even exposing what we have, it's, it's, it's a comfort, uh, and a calmness about our shortcomings and failings. 'Cause we all got them, it's just, it's our relationship to them that kinda determines our, our mental health.

Chris Williamson 44:10 I was speaking to a Special Forces operative, British one, and he was talking about how all of the guys use quite, uh, morbid humor to get past these-

Mark Manson 44:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:24 ... scary situations. And it's this pressure release valve, because all of them are shitting themselves, all of them are scared. It's like if you don't think-

Mark Manson 44:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:31 ... they were scared, you're wrong, but we just have ways of coping with it. And most of them coped with it by making jokes about stuff-

Mark Manson 44:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:39 ... by laughing, by laughing about stuff. One guy got, uh, shot, like a, a single pellet from a shotgun or something went through the meat of his ass cheek, and all of them couldn't stop laughing about it. And (laughs) -

Mark Manson 44:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:51 (laughs) ... you know, like, this guy's gotta have ... Like he's off work for, he's off the, like, off the unit for God knows how long and he's gotta have stitches and all of these operations to get it fixed, and he was laughing and so was everyone else.

Mark Manson 45:02 (laughs) Yeah, man. Gallows humor.

Chris Williamson 45:06 Yeah. But it's, it's ... You're right as well that confidence from most people isn't due to a, uh, presumed lack of capacity, it's due to an, uh, exaggerated, um, presence of insufficiency.

Mark Manson 45:21 Yeah. Yeah, and it's-

Chris Williamson 45:23 And embracing that is the solution.

Mark Manson 45:25 Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's easy to mistake, um, you know ... Their, there's ... A lot of people in the world compensate for their, their lack or their flaws by overly boasting about their successes or, or their positive traits. And, um, and I think people, people wrongly attribute that to confidence, you know. If somebody's like, "I'm the best so-and-so ever. I'm the best mountain climber ever," you're like, "Man, that guy is confident." It's like, no, it's actually quite the opposite, you know. It's, it's he has to say that or else he doesn't feel comfortable actually going and doing it, you know. If he was confident, he wouldn't have to say it. It's like a ... You know, where I grew up, we have a ... I grew up in Texas, we have a lot of corny southern sayings, and one of them is, uh, the, the smallest dog barks the loudest. And, um, it's like, yeah, if, if you've gotta, if you've gotta tell everybody you're rich, you're not rich. Like, if you've gotta tell somebody ... If you've gotta tell everybody how smart you are, you're not smart, you know. You either are or you w- or you aren't.

Chris Williamson 46:33 Right. We're into the meat of it now. This is, this is my favorite section. So,

Chris Williamson 46:37 if all your relationships have the same problem, you are the problem.

Mark Manson 46:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:46 (laughs)

Mark Manson 46:48 Yeah. Um-

Chris Williamson 46:50 How did this one get down?

Mark Manson 46:50 It's funny ... (laughs) You, you know, you know what's funny? So this was originally ... I wrote a short article, um, I wrote a short article I think in, like, 2012 or '13, and it was called, uh, it was called, like, All the Reasons You're S- You're Still Single. And, um ...

Chris Williamson 47:09 (laughs)

Mark Manson 47:10 (laughs) And I published it on Valentine's Day. And, uh, you know, I just got, like, a sick pleasure out of that, you know. And it basically said, it was like, "Look, all these problems you think all your partners have or all the people you date have, like, guess what, you know, the only thing they have in common is you."

Chris Williamson 47:26 Common denominator.

Mark Manson 47:26 Um, but I, I repost that probably about once a year in different places, in different forms, and (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 47:33 On Valentine's Day. Just let's schedule it every February 14th from now until the end of time. (laughs)

Mark Manson 47:39 I, I had a pretty sick thing going on my blog with Valentine's Day for a while, like, I, like, I did that one year, and then I think the next year, I did, like, a how to break up with somebody, like, guide on Valentine's Day. (laughs) I did, like, a bunch of, like, kind of fucked up, uh, you know, dark humor type things. But, um, yeah, I repost that one quite frequently because, um, I mean, I always get ... A lot of people get mad at me when I post it, a lot of, you know, 'cause everybody's got that, "Well, you don't understand, my ex is different," you know? And-

Chris Williamson 48:11 What, all four-

Mark Manson 48:11 You have to hear my s-

Chris Williamson 48:12 ... of them have the exact same problem-

Mark Manson 48:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:13 ... that you, you happen to be the single threat, but they don't know each other, they're not even in the same city, and yet they all ended-

Mark Manson 48:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:19 ... in the same way, but it's all their fault, not yours.

Mark Manson 48:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:23 Hmm. Okay.

Mark Manson 48:24 It, it's, it's always, I'm always ... Uh, you know, I, and so I get lots and lots of emails o- over the years, and, and I'm always amused that the people who get really upset at my relationship advice, th- they're, they always send emails, like, this long, and it's always like, "Well, you don't understand, my situation is different." And then they go on to tell this, like, you know, f- five-stage, five-page sob story about, you know, God knows what, uh, the ... And in every, and in every case, it's, it's exactly the same. It's like, "No, you're, you're still the problem. You're just-"... you know. Um, but yeah, it, it's also, I keep posting it because it, it is such a powerful realization. Um, it was very powerful in my own life, uh, and I, you know, just heard from hundreds of people at this point who've told me the same thing, that it was very powerful for them to hear as well. So, I, I'm willing to deal with a little bit of hate, um, (laughs) to get the good word out.

Chris Williamson 49:23 Doing God's work. Uh, right.

Mark Manson 49:24 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 49:24 Lots of people who are still single, but want a relationship simply have absurd expectations.

Mark Manson 49:32 Yes. I, I think one of the problems with, uh ... I mean, look, like, I think one of the side effects of, of the internet, like kind of the effects that the internet has, has had on culture is that it, it's exposed us to the most extraordinary aspects of society, you know? So, it's, if you're interested in, uh, you know, mountain climbing, you can, like, go on YouTube and find amazing videos of people summitting Everest, like, left, right, and center. And so I, I feel like this is ... without us realizing it, it has skewed our expectations for our own lives. Um, it's kind of, like, moved the goal back about 50 yards, um, from where it would normally be without us necessarily even recognizing it. And I think this applies to dating as well. It's like you, you ... because you have access to so many people through dating apps or online or, or whatever, um, you, you start developing these kind of unrealistic standards of what a partner should be, you know. People develop these insane checklists of, you know, well, they, they need to be, like ... they need to be a concert pianist-

Chris Williamson 50:47 (laughs)

Mark Manson 50:47 ... and they need to have a PhD, and they need to be a part-time model, and they need to speak six lang- languages, and you know, it, it's like good luck, man. Like, (laughs) good luck. Uh, so I, I, I just ... I think sometimes we need to be brought down to Earth.

Chris Williamson 51:06 I wonder whether, as well, part of it is just that we, we constantly are looking for something that's going to fill the hole. And perhaps by setting our standards so absurdly high, we never actually have to enter the world of a relationship with people. Also, here's another thing, man. How much do you think this is because we live in a meritocracy? Like, if you teach people that they can become anything that they want to be, your success is completely yours to bear, why shouldn't everyone want to try and date Angelina Jolie? Well, I can become anything I want to be. I can date anyone I want to want.

Mark Manson 51:44 Yeah. I, I think it's ... there, there's kind of a missing counter-narrative to meritocracy or, or not counter, but like a kind of a parallel narrative that needs to exist where it's like at some point you need to, to, like, pick your spot to be satisfied. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:02 What's the hill that you're gonna get married on? Yeah, exactly.

Mark Manson 52:05 E- exactly. Exactly. Like it, it's ... and, and this comes back to what we were talking about earlier about, like, this, this kind of unwillingness to sacrifice and commit for others. Like, it's ... the thing that makes a relationship strong is the ability to be, like, "Okay, I see what's wrong with you, but I'm gonna love you anyways." Like, that (laughs) like, getting to that point is what makes the relationship work. Um, but I just think, like, fundamentally, the way the incentives and culture is set up right now, it's like it's, it's harder than ever for people to get to that point.

Chris Williamson 52:39 Yeah. You classed yourself as an ardent zealot of marriage. Um, have you got any advice for young guys who want to kind of transition from fuckboy to fatherhood?

Mark Manson 52:50 (laughs) From fuckboy to fatherhood. It'd be a good book title.

Chris Williamson 52:54 It would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Manson 52:56 (laughs) Um ... well, I do wanna say, I'm not ... I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a zealot for marriage, but, like, I, I think it's underrated these days, and I think there's not enough, um, people arguing for it, especially, especially in my generation. Um, I would say that, you know, to make that transition, it's ... kind of the best piece of advice I've come across is, is asking people ... you know, 'cause when you're dating a lot of people, part of the excitement is there's so much a diversity of dating experience. Like, you, you date people of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different nationalities, different professions, all this stuff. Like, it's a very exciting time to kind of, like, sample the buffet of what's out there. Um, but at a certain point, like when you wanna get serious, the thing I always ask people is, I say like, "Okay, what are your three non-negotiables?" Like, what are the three things that, like, you just cannot be with a person if they don't have them? And it's ... I've noticed that people who really struggle to name those three things, like, they're kind of just, like, kind of l- lost on this hamster wheel of dating the next person who pops up on Tinder. Um, but, like, you really need to figure out, like, what are your non-negotiables? What are the things that you really can't live without o- without in a partner? Um, and then figure out if those are good non-negotiables. You know, there, there are bad things you can kind of put in those three spots. But generally, it's gonna be stuff like, you know, honesty or trustworthiness. Um, you know, for me, intelligence is huge. Like, I, I need to be able to have, like, a good conversation. Um, you know, and, and for me too, it's, it's ambition. I just find ... I'm ex- very, very attracted to ambitious women. I, I don't ... I always get frustrated, you know, whenever I dated women who weren't super ambitious, I'd get very frustrated. So, it's like part of it's just learning through the act of dating, but then once you have 'em, you look for those non-negotiables, and then you just don't worry about the other things, 'cause it's ... I think...... part of the trap of the dating environment these days is like, you know, it's like, "Well, she's really great at these four or five things, but, you know, she's got pointy elbows and-"

Chris Williamson 55:23 (laughs)

Mark Manson 55:24 "... I prefer redheads. And, you know, she's from California and I don't wanna travel to meet her family." You know, like, it's shit like that that people, like, you know, move on from potentially really good relationships. And so, it's like get your three non-negotiables and then just fucking forget everything else. Like, just, just look for those three things.

Chris Williamson 55:44 What do you think people should stop believing about relationships? Are there any sort of common myths that you think most people hold?

Mark Manson 55:53 Um, I think people mistake, uh, I think people mistake compromise for settling. Um, you know, there's, there's a strong... I've noticed that a lot of people, especially younger people, have this strong, like, ethos of like, "I'm never gonna settle." Like, "I'm not gonna settle for somebody who, like, doesn't make me happy or whatever." Um, and that's fine. Like, you shouldn't settle for a person who, you know, hasn't... Like, somebody you're not attracted to, for instance. Um, but at the same time, it's like any functional relationship requires compromise, and compromise r- requires you foregoing some of your own happiness to create, you know, more general happiness in the, uh, among both of you in the long run. And, um, and I think a lot of people just mix up those two things. You know, I've, I've talked to a lot of people who, who have ended relationships for, like, in my mind, it's just, like, insanely dumb reasons, you know. Um, it's like, "Oh, well, she wanted to move. You know, her o- her company wanted to move her to another city and I don't wanna deal with that." It's like, "Well, dude, you were like... A month ago, you were telling me how in love you were." Like... (laughs) He's like, "Yeah, but I don't wanna settle for somebody who, like..." It, it's just, like, they're not even... Sh- it's like, "Yeah, she wants me to travel there every two months or something, you know?" And it's like, "I don't have time for that." It's, it's like, okay, this is why you're single.

Chris Williamson 57:21 (laughs)

Mark Manson 57:21 You're literally not prioritizing. You wonder why you're single decade after decade, it's 'cause you don't fucking prioritize your relationships. (laughs) It's really simple. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:33 I mean, think about it, man. There's even, there's even, um, subcultures and, and lingo around what people should and shouldn't do when they get that kind of pushback in a relationship. For, so for girls, it's like clapping back, right? Or for guys, it's not being a simp or not being a cuck or not being like a, like a, a soy boy or whatever, like not being weak. And, um, you think-

Mark Manson 57:56 Sure.

Chris Williamson 57:56 ... like, if both of these things are happening because they're coming at it... These are two very, very polar, uh, polarized types of, um, approaches to relationships. Men want sexual variety, women want sort of commitment. And, um, somehow both of them have arrived at, like, the same conclusion. It's the same as the left and right thing that we were talking about before. And the thing that I can only think about is that one of the things perhaps is an increasing ubiquitousness of, uh, people being exposed to perfect seeming relationships on social media, in press, so on and so forth, and in romance movies. One of the few places that kind of, um, the, the cancel culture mob hasn't yet gotten to is that most relationships should finish with a happy ending. Like-

Mark Manson 58:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:38 ... and she built her business and made a, a billion dollars and lived happily ever after. Like, that's not really usually the way that the story ends. Um-

Mark Manson 58:49 Sure.

Chris Williamson 58:50 So I'm wondering whether or not people, again, the unrealistic expectations thing that we're talking about and kind of this, yeah, this conflation that, um, anything shy of absolutely perfect is you being taken for a ride.

Mark Manson 59:04 Yeah. Well, it's... So there... People have always, and this is true of men and women, but, you know, in the dating realm, men and women tend... You see the same patterns, but it plays out with different language and different, uh, it's expressed with different language. But like everything you just listed, I mean, it's basically seeing relationships as a power game. And, um, one thing I've written before is that, like, the definition of unhealthy relationship is when people see it as a power, like people perceive the relationship to be a power struggle. It's always like who is, has more influence, who is getting their way more than the other person, who is getting what they want from the other person? Any relationship, romantic, friendship, business relationship, any relationship you, you approach as a power game, as like a zero sum power game, it's by definition toxic. It's gonna harm your life. It's gonna harm the other person's life. Even if you're winning that power game, it's gonna harm your life and it's gonna harm the other person's life. Um, a healthy relationship is, the way I describe it is, is, is both people act unconditionally, which is basically like, look, like, we're equals. We both wanna be happy. We both want the other person to be happy. So what do we need to do to make that happen? And sometimes that might, might mean, you know, in the case like my wife and I, maybe that mean, like, maybe a couple times it means I give up something or I don't do something. A couple times it means she gives up something, she doesn't do something. Like there's, there's no scorecard here. Like there's no, we're not keeping a tally in the bedroom of what-

Chris Williamson 1:00:41 It's not a transaction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Manson 1:00:43 Yeah. We're not, we're not, like, adding up who gave up more when or whatever. It's like, you know, maybe one... If she's having a tough year, maybe I give up more that year. If, if I'm having a tough year in five years, she gives up more that year. Like it's that... You, you don't, you don't ask those questions or, or try to count those things because it's the act of counting itself that undermines the relationship. Um, and it's funny too because a lot of the dating advice industry, both for men and for women, focuses on that scorecard. It's like...You know, there's, there was a book in the '90s called The Rules, which was all about, it was teaching women, you know, stuff like, "Don't pick up the phone the first time he calls," or, um, you know, "Get up and go to the bathroom when the check comes," or something to make him pay it, like, stuff like that. Um, and it's basically teaching women how to, how to tally it, like, win more points on the scorecard, but it doesn't realize it's teaching them a- to have toxic relationships with people. And it's the same thing with The Game in 2005 with the whole pickup artist thing. It's the exact same. It's teaching men how to win at the scorecard.

Chris Williamson 1:01:55 And look at fucking-

Mark Manson 1:01:55 And it's like, all right.

Chris Williamson 1:01:56 ... look, look at Neil Strauss now.

Mark Manson 1:01:57 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:58 Look at, look at... (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:01:59 I mean... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:59 God. (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:02:01 I mean, it's... And the thing is, I mean, Neil made it out better than most of those guys. Like, it's, it's, uh, I mean, talk about train wreck on top of train wreck. Um, so it's... And I, you know, I was part of that world when I was young, and it took me a couple years, but I soon figured out. I'm like, "Man, this is not gonna end well." Like- (laughs) Sure, I'm getting laid a lot, but, like, this is not, like, it's not making me happy. It's not, it's not making... You know, the women I'm, I'm hooking up with are not happy people. Like, um, this is, uh, uh, this is a dead end. I need to find a different road.

Chris Williamson 1:02:39 That's the ultimate red pill about pickup artistry and kind of the whole meninism movement at large. Now the- there has to be a- a- an equivalent for women. I just don't know what it's called. Um-

Mark Manson 1:02:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:49 And this is why your first book, Models, is... I- I've just completed... Yes, everyone that's listening, I've just finished the reading list today. So there's 100 books. Uh, and that's taken me fucking ages, man. It took so long. Um, and the only book, the only book that's specifically about dating and pickup on there is Models. And the fundamental reason is that pickup artistry and the female equivalent of it is teaching you tactics to appear like an attractive mate-

Mark Manson 1:03:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:20 ... but it doesn't make you an attractive mate. Like, it's the same as going to a powerlifting competition and wearing a secret mechanical exoskeleton that allows you to pick the weight up. You win, you get the gold medal, but you're still not that strong. And if anyone asks you to replicate that again, you can't do it without all of the tactics that you have. And I think pickup artistry as well actually causes a lot of men to lose confidence because what they see is the chasm between what the girl is attracted to in this caricature, the alter- alter ego that they've created for themselves and who they actually think that they are, and this gap-

Mark Manson 1:04:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:02 ... the, the, um, delta between those two is fucking huge.

Mark Manson 1:04:07 Yeah, I mean, it, it's... Obviously, it objectifies women, you know. I- you, when you treat them as objects to be manipulated by using lines and stories and whatever, um, y- you're objectifying them, which is bad for them. Um, but what men don't realize is, is that they're objectifying themselves as well. So, it's, it's they're choosing to ignore who they really are, what they really want, what they really believe in, what they're really attracted to, and instead, adopting a fake persona, adopting scripted lines, a scripted identity essentially, kinda like downloading an identity onto themselves, um, to just get this, to get a, a, a, you know, real-world result, to get, like, to get laid a few times. It's like, first of all, not only does it make the sex horrible (laughs) because, because... And first of all, it, it only attracts women who are also hiding their real selves, who are also, don't have the confidence to, to show up authentically, um, who don't, who have low self-esteem and are very needy. Um, so it, it brings two emotionally unhealthy people together to kind of do this performance, where, at least for the pickup artist, like, the i- the, the goal is sex. Um, but because sex is such a vulnerable and intimate experience, um, it's really unenjoyable, like, 99% of the time.

Chris Williamson 1:05:35 Super performative.

Mark Manson 1:05:37 Yeah. And it's... And so it's just you, you get the little ego boost. You're like, "Oh, okay. I got laid now." Um, but yeah, I think in the long run, it, it makes guys feel very empty, um, and feel very lost. Um, and so, so my book Models was very much written... I wrote it specifically to kind of, to be like the antidote to that. Um, you know, I, I had spent some time in that community, and then I kinda got out, but I still coached men's, gave men's dating advice, still coached men. Um, and I, I just started to realize, like, you know, most of these guys, like, their, their problem is not that they don't know what to text a girl or that they don't know where to take her on a date, you know. Like, that's not the pro-... The problem is, like, they fucking... They, they don't believe in themselves. Like, they don't, they don't stand for anything. They don't have an identity. Like, they don't, they don't have social skills. Like, it's, you know, deal with these fundamental things first, and, and the dating stuff will just take care of itself. And so Models was very much like a... I felt like there was not an emotionally healthy, uh, guide to men's dating in the world. And so I wanted to write one that would help men but also, um, do it in a way that, like, they, they don't have to, like, sacrifice their self-worth.

Chris Williamson 1:06:57 Is there anything that you'd change from it or that you think you missed? I mean, looking back now, whatever, seven years later on, are you thinking, "Oh, that would be awesome to add that in"?

Mark Manson 1:07:05 Um, I revised it twice. So I revised it once in 2... So it came out in 2011. I revised it in 2012, and most of that revision was kind of just (laughs) making it, getting rid of typos, like, making it a little bit professional, um, 'cause it was, it was in rough shape when I first released it. And then I, when I revised it again in 2016-Um, I was actually pleasantly surprised that like probably 95% of it I still stood by and felt really good about. Um, the one in ... The revision in 2016, I- I kinda updated it 'cause the original version was slanted. You know, I wrote it when I was like 26, so it was still slanted more towards, like, being a single guy, going out and partying, hooking up. Um, I wanted, I wanted it to be kinda relationship neutral, you know. So it's like if you just wanna get laid, that's fine. If you wanna ha- like get married, that's also fine. So, I- I revised it to kind of, you know, speak to- to everybody. Um, and then the other thing, the- the thing that really surprised me, but Models developed a r- a real following among, um, among women and among LGBT people and, um, and so I- I kind of edited ... You know, there were little, like, simple examples or lines and stuff here and there that I- I kinda edited just to like be applicable to a broader audience 'cause the- the central concepts of the book are universal. Like the- the things that make ultimately ... drive human relationships and make people happy in human relationships and turn people on are- are pretty universal. It- they're just expressed slightly differently, um, based on gender and then they're expressed slightly differently based on sexual orientation. And so I- I wanted to just make the book, even though it's written for men, I wanted to make it as universal as possible.

Chris Williamson 1:09:00 Got you. Right. What do you think people are giving too many fucks about that they shouldn't?

Mark Manson 1:09:06 (laughs) Uh, whatever's being posted on Twitter. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:09 Fine. Fine. That is ... (laughs) I think that can get universal agreement from everybody.

Mark Manson 1:09:15 Yeah. Period. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:16 Yeah. Full stop. Man, thank you so much for coming on. Uh, this will, just will-

Mark Manson 1:09:25 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:09:26 ... uh, November 9th.

Mark Manson 1:09:27 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:09:27 And, um, dude, I'm so- I'm so gassed for that. Awesome. Like really r- What a cool project to have worked on and, um, yeah, I can't wait for that to come out.

Mark Manson 1:09:37 Yeah. Me too, man.

Chris Williamson 1:09:39 Well look, dude, markmanson.net for all things-

Mark Manson 1:09:43 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:09:44 ... you, uh, Models and Subtle Art and everything else will be linked in the show notes below if everyone wants to check that out. And what are your socials if people want to follow you on there?

Mark Manson 1:09:53 Uh, Twitter is iammarkmanson. Uh, Instagram is just markmanson. Um, and then I think Facebook is markmansonnet. I don't, I don't really use Facebook.

Chris Williamson 1:10:02 Does everyone- does anyone use- anyone use Facebook anymore?

Mark Manson 1:10:03 No. Nobody uses Facebook anymore. But um, old people use Facebook. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:10:08 (laughs)

Mark Manson 1:10:08 Oh, and I'm also on- I'm als- I have a YouTube channel now as well, so I- I do, um, I do a few videos each month.

Chris Williamson 1:10:15 Sick.

Mark Manson 1:10:15 So check that out.

Chris Williamson 1:10:16 Brother, thank you so much.

Mark Manson 1:10:18 Thank you, man. It was fun.

Chris Williamson 1:10:20 Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.