Modern WisdomMichael Malice - Is Anarchy The Answer? | Modern Wisdom Podcast 329
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,060 words- 0:00 – 0:38
Intro
- MMMichael Malice
I don't want your crappy system. If your system results that I go into the store and I can only buy Pepsi Cola or Coca-Cola or Coca-Cola and strychnine, something needs to change on a fundamental level. There's no reason to be represented by someone you dislike or despise or disagree with, and it's not reasonable for you to expect me to buy into your chicanery. (wind blowing)
- CWChris Williamson
Michael Malice, welcome to the show.
- MMMichael Malice
Thank you, sir.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) How are you, dude?
- MMMichael Malice
I'm phenomenally, doing phenomenally well.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, me too, me too. This has been a very good week, I think, for both of us.
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, okay. We're talking about you now? Okay.
- 0:38 – 6:17
The Anarchist Handbook
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
(laughing)
- MMMichael Malice
I see how it is. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Where are you in the Amazon charts now? I know you've been crushing it recently.
- MMMichael Malice
I think I'm at 30 ... I'm only 39. How embarrassing.
- CWChris Williamson
I know. Sucks-
- MMMichael Malice
Of all books. Let's check right now. Let's look.
- CWChris Williamson
Let's have a little look. Yeah, exactly.
- MMMichael Malice
Let's l- let's, let's check it out.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
Like Steve Brule says. So we're going here, um, and we are at ... Let's look at view on Amazon. It is s- doo, doo, doo, doo ... 37. Ugh. The shame.
- CWChris Williamson
I know. Down with the plebs.
- MMMichael Malice
The shame. The shame. I feel, I feel so embarrassed. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I love the idea of having an Amazon link which is essentially a one word or a one URL answer to a question that you always get asked about anarchy.
- MMMichael Malice
Y- Well, I get asked a lot, and this is what the, the whole point of The Anarchist Handbook was so people could stop bothering me-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
... and, and read, read for themselves. No, you know, what, uh, what happened was when I first started doing this sort of thing, being a media personality, for lack of a better term, I, my, I, uh, I always had a strategy. And my strategy was, um, say something interesting or say something uninteresting in an interesting way, because there's no shortage of these people who go on these shows, and you know exactly what they're gonna say. It's gonna be Republican talking points, Democratic talking points, you know, c- Tory talking points, Labour talking points, unless it's Diane Abbott. Then you definitely want to watch it, 'cause that's the b- the best. Um, and at a certain point, you know, my platform increased, and I keep talking about anarchism and people kept asking me, and I'm like, "I don't wanna explain all this. Just do the homework. Leave me alone." And at a certain point, I'm like, "Oh, people do care what I think." And I'm like, "Well, this is all the answers that they want to know about histor-" There's a, you know, it's a collection of historical essays from all the prominent anarchists of the past. Well, I don't want to say all, but, uh, the vast majority of them, so.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do a collection of essays rather than give your own interpretation of the philosophy and the way that the politics put together?
- MMMichael Malice
Um, I think it's a good way to give, uh, respect to those who have paved the way. Uh, I think there's some people in there who I've sort of rescued from the dustbin of history, who, who've been forgotten, and to be able to sort of redee- People who died, you know, who murdered, f- were killed for their views, uh, to be able to bring that back. To also demonstrate, you know, showing versus telling. I could tell people that the black flag of anarchism comes in many colors, but it's another thing for them to read and to see why these people may agree on certain things, but they are all over the map in terms of, you know, other things. So, uh, I, I think, uh ... And a lot of them will say it better than I will. Uh, it's, it's, it's ... I'm not gonna outdo Lysander Spooner when it comes to his essay on the Constitution, so why even try? So, uh, a- and, you know, maybe at some point, I will be able to, uh, do that book of my own, but I, I think, uh, it's, it's premature and, and, and kind of superfluous.
- CWChris Williamson
Why'd you choose the name? 'Cause there's The Anarchist's Cookbook, which is a very different sort of book.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Why'd you choose the one that you went for?
- MMMichael Malice
Um, I don't know. I just felt like it felt like an organic, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so it wasn't some subversive reference to something else?
- MMMichael Malice
I didn't even think of The Anarchist Cookbook when that happened. It might've been a subconscious thing. Um, yeah. I, I guess is, is all ... I don't have a good answer.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you.
- MMMichael Malice
Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Who would you have put in that you couldn't?
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, uh, maybe Chomsky. I didn't think to put him in, uh, because he's m- less theory and more of application. I ... We know him ... Chomsky would be probably the biggest names. Maybe a few, like, some Christian anarchists or lefties, but it's already 365 pages, and all ... Like, there's no question all the major names are represented, so.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the best definition that you've got for anarchy? Just elevator pitch.
- 6:17 – 8:57
Why Michael Doesn't Vote
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Why do you refuse to vote?
- MMMichael Malice
Well, there's an essay about that, that ... See, this is exactly why I did the book, so when people are like, "Why do you refuse to vote?" I'll be like, "Just buy the book." Uh, but basically, the premise is, uh, um, uh, you know, there's a few slogans, "Don't vote, it only encourages them." But also, I do not think that if you- if I would vote, uh, I would have a right to complain. Because if I'm hiring a lawyer and that lawyer, I'm saying, speaks for me. You know, this person represents me. If I'm hiring an accountant, this person, you know, I'm outsour- I'm- I am voluntarily granting them authority. If I go and say, "I want this person to be my representative," and they do- they change their word, which they will inevitably do, uh, I- brother, I asked for it. I said, "I want this person to represent me," and I do not believe any politician does or can represent me.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's avoiding being complicit in the game.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. A- and it also ... I- I ... First of all, it's just a waste of time. So in terms of, like, ways to use your time, if you want to make the world a better place, there's old people who are lonely, there's a dog you can foster, there's kids who don't have a dad who you can mentor. Uh, there's so many different ways where if you want to work for the common good and make society a better place, if you just commit that one hour, you act- you feed someone who's hungry, buy someone ... Work for an hour and- and buy a poor person clothing. There- there's just infinite ways that we could all marginally increase the, uh, happiness, you know, i- in the world around us. So, voting is a ritual that validates those who slaughter, you know, hundreds of thousands of people in the name of, uh, patriotism and things like this. So it, it's, it's a, uh, a, you know, n- not a fan of democracy, to put it mildly.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you feel then in the buildup to an election when obviously you get asked a lot, I've asked you on this show, ideas and insights around the election. Is that, does that feel a little bit like playing somebody else's game? Does it feel a bit like, "Oh God," like, "I just can't be bothered to even discuss this archaic institution that I can't be bothered to get into"?
- MMMichael Malice
No. No. No. Not at all. It's- it's the opposite. It's that it's, I'm being able to discuss it without the façade that this is some kind of noble endeavor and- and-
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause you got no agenda.
- MMMichael Malice
... well, th- the ... Well, I do have an agenda, which is the destruction of the state.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
Um, but it's also, uh, just exposing the manipulations and machinations of the parties, the corporate media, social media, and all these other various, uh, uh, figures. So it's- it's- it's- it is of great interest and- and, you know, to- to watch how this sociologically plays out, even though I don't regard any of it as, uh, valid.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your favorite essay from the new book?
- MMMichael Malice
I ... Jon Hasnes,
- 8:57 – 16:09
Anarchy & Objective Law
- MMMichael Malice
who's a Georgetown University professor, uh, he's alive, he gave me permission to do it, w- I would say that one, 'cause he talks about the myth of objective law. So, you know, the big sticking point for most people to make the full transition to anarchism is to have a legal system, and, uh, uh, you know, the argument is, okay, look, at the very base, we need to have a system of law where everyone can come together and have a base agreement, you can't do this, you can't do that. And his ... Being a law professor, he demonstrates that the idea of objective law is not only, uh, does not apply in reality, it's literally impossible even in theory, that whenever you ... He gives many examples of like, look, whatever this legal case is, and these are, you know, not ... Uh, these are just basic legal cases, like this person has a sweater, this one doesn't, or something like that, and- and- and they nail it to each other. You are going to have whoever is adjudicating this process, they are going to bring their worldview to the judgment inevitably. So there's no reason why everyone has to be under the same principle of law, and I'll give you a great example that's a very ... that'll be very easy for people to solve. Y- you and I are both, uh, eBay ... Uh, we have an eBay exchange, and you're supposed to mail it to me, and somehow it gets lost in transition, right? So you can very easily imagine one legal system where you're the seller, it's your responsibility to get it to my hands. If you don't get it to my hands, I get my money back. Another legal system, you could say, "Well, I sent it. My hands are clean. Take it up at the post office." Right? Both of those scenarios, if they're explicated ahead of time, which one is right? Which one is just? They both make perfect sense, and there's no reason why you can't choose which system of rules will govern your behavior. At ... Now, it gets much trickier when you're coming to things like violent crime and murder and things like that, and that th- that's a k- kind of a separate issue that we can get into later. But in terms of regarding that there has to be one legal system with one set of rules that everyone has to follow is demonstrably false. Second, the claim, and any- literally any lawyer will tell you, if objective law were possible, then you would know for a fact how that judge is gonna rule in your case. Right? If I buy something at the supermarket and it's expired milk, I'm getting a refund. You know ahead of time. But if this is a legal system, you have n- not only do you have no idea of the outcome, you can be certain that the attorney's fees are gonna be exorbitant and are going t- This is why ... How- how often are people involved in lawsuits? It's regarded as a nightmare, right? Because the claim is that e- equality under the law, even if you're very, very poor, you have to have access to this system of adjudicating disputes, but everyone knows, uh, poor people do not have access to lawyers and- and things like that. They'll have access to it if they're the defendant, they'll have a public defender, at least in the States, I'm sure probably the same thing in Britain. But in terms of a lawsuit, they do not have access to this service, which defenders of the- of the government will say is crucially necessary to everybody.
- CWChris Williamson
How would that be fixed in an anarchist society?
- MMMichael Malice
Uh, when you ha- ... Everything would be resolved ... Look at ... We have it fixed right now in terms of eBay. Right? So right now, you and I have a dispute, and eBay steps in and either gives me the refund or says, "I'm out of luck. Chris sent the sweater." And it's res- ... Even if I don't get the answer I want-... I at least don't have to buy a lawyer, and it's resolved in seconds. Anarchism is not utopia. There is still going to be theft. There's still going to be killing. There's still going to be missing sweaters in the mail. The difference is the resolution of these problems is going to be much more efficient, cheaper, and much more conducive to peace as opposed to imposing judgments that entire portions of the population find to be abhorrent.
- CWChris Williamson
That makes sense in a very binary scenario that's easily trackable, like an eBay situation.
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
But if it was a more complex one, stuff to do with litigation in business law, business-to-business transactions, merges-
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... money, taxes. What about that? Surely, that's just equally complicated.
- MMMichael Malice
Sure. So it would be the same thing as going to a practitioner versus going to a surgeon, right? If you're going to have things that are that technically complicated, you are going to have some kind of higher level, uh, court system to resolve it. But again, even in that case, it's still going to be cheaper because there'll be competition, uh, and, and, uh, um, different firms that ... We have that right now, again, private arbitration. Different private arbitration would, uh, have the capacity to compete in terms of efficiency. Now, the question becomes, well, I don't ... What if I don't respect the judgment of this private arbitration? Uh, that's when you have to have things like, uh, ostracism, uh, things like, um, credit scores, uh, and so on and so forth. Uh, uh, having a bad credit score, which are done by ... It- it's not Visa or MasterCard or, you know, American Express or Britain Express, I'm guessing you have, uh, which are the ones who are kind of, uh, um, uh, uh, adjudicating the system. You have credit reports, right? And they tell both the credit card company and you what your credit score is, and they're saying, "In my opinion, these are the odds this person is reliable in terms of repaying their debts." And not only is there one, there's three of them. So you would have the same sort of situation where it's like, okay, should you deal with, you know, Williams & Co.? Well, historically, and it's only gonna take one. Williams & Co. agreed to abide by the judgment of this third party. They refused, and that's basically going to f- very factually say it's much riskier to deal with this guy than it is to deal with them, where even if they don't agree with the judgment, they still, uh, e- even if they personally don't agree, they still follow through with the result.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like there's a lot more work to be done on the front end, then, with that. You might get through the litigation side more quickly for deploying the law. But coming into it, it's going to be a little bit more effortful, at least in the beginning, because imagine how much all of this would be to set up, and you'd have to have some sort of agreed, uh, rules and principles between the different agencies that might be representing someone, so everyone would need to format their everything in the same way. So there still needs to be agreed rules and procedures and regulations over the top.
- MMMichael Malice
But as, as we said earlier, like with ... Let's go back to the cell phone example. I don't know, and you don't know what happens when I call you, and we have different phone providers, and we never need to know. Because before those cell phone providers came to market, they already established procedures on how to deal with every other cellphone company so that their customers don't ever have to worry about or think about it. So look at it this way, in terms of fashion, the problem if a- if anything with fashion is we have too many choices, too many options. We have, you know, books and magazines telling you which to choose. But when it comes to the law, you don't have choice, um, and it's much more expensive and costly. And the, the reason the law is such a concern as opposed to fashion never being a political issue is precisely because whatever the government does, it does poorly. And, and that's, uh, to put it mildly.
- 16:09 – 22:52
Difficult Scenarios for Anarchists
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. What do you think is the hardest question or the most difficult issue for an anarchist society to try and overcome?
- MMMichael Malice
Uh, what do you do about the kids? Because if you don't have a state and kids are basically under the dominion of their parents, how are you going to resolve cases, which there are no shortage of, when parents are bad actors toward your- their children? That is a tough one. And that's a tough one under any scenario. That's the thing. One of the big issues in terms of people attacking anarchism, which is, of course, their prerogative, is they'll say, "Well, anarchism is bad 'cause it's going to lead to war." I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The system you're advocating doesn't lead to war, so you can't have this kind of double standard?" So this is a criticism that's like, okay, you're not going to have, um, you know, child protective services possibly, or maybe you would in a private sense, like you have a apartment complex and, you know, I don't know how they would resolve it. The point is, it's horrible now. Like, the foster kid system, like, many kids are, you know, subject to abuse, and it's certainly less than, uh, um, ideal. So I- that's a good, tough question, and I do not have a good answer. But I don't think any system that's been posited has had a good answer.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. And that's because typically, th- there's like a, there's an agent within an anarchist society that kind of opts in to some of the services-
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... which then get used, but in a situation where the only legal agent is the bad actor themselves, and you have a dependent that-
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... requires somebody to step in, you have this vacuum which is not being filled by something.
- MMMichael Malice
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that is a nasty situation.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. And it's, it's just, uh, it's just n- I, I, it's just nasty in general.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know, man. I mean, that's, yeah, that's, that's an ugly one. What about, what about if a country went to war with another country?
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
I know this is in the second half of one of the, one of the essays I looked at.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. Uh, well, first of all, it wouldn't be another country, it would be like an anarchist area. Um, but we really see examples of this in the past, which is there is a ... This is hilarious, which is a criticism of anarchism that, like, if you get help from a state, it's not anarchism at all. It's like, well, if someone mails me food, that doesn't make them the government. They're just someone who's providing a service, right? So as of right now-Like literally today, I, as a private company, can hire the US government to provide security for me. This in no sense makes them my government any more than hiring a chauffeur is the one who's my chauffeur. They're the ones taking orders, not giving them. So there are many countries on Earth already ... This, the argument is, well, if the US went anarchist, they'd be invaded tomorrow by China. Well, why aren't we invading ... Why isn't the US invading Canada by this logic? Why isn't the Vatican being invaded by Italy or Monaco, uh, by France? There's many examples of countries on Earth right now that do not have, um, any gov- ... They don't have any military whatsoever and can easily be overrun. Uh, so there's ... Sure, there are bigger governments, but no one is saying, or I'm certainly not saying, that for it ... For anarchism to be considered successful, it has to be worldwide. There's no reason why, you know, if ... Ireland was anarchist for thousands of years, uh, and is used as an example historically of how an anarchist system would work. So, uh, if you had an invasion, let ... We saw what happened with Kuwait. Let's pretend Kuwait, instead of a government, had been an anarchist area. You saw a lot of self-interested nations with big armies step in.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
And also, it's much harder to invade and conquer an area where everyone is armed and trained in using their weaponry.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
I mean, look at Afghanistan, look at Vietnam. I mean, this, this argument people say that like, "Well, if there's an anarchist area, like, you know, they'd be conquered immediately." China's not having a fun time conquering Hong Kong. So the claim that this is something that's just done, like, with a snap of, snapping of fingers is, is nonsensical. It's very, very hard to invade and conquer, and very, at the very least, very expensive.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you see there being a, an anarchist state in your lifetime?
- MMMichael Malice
Well, it ... No, 'cause by definition, there wouldn't be an anarchist state, but, uh, anarchism is a relationship, right?
- CWChris Williamson
How should I ref- ... I keep on getting that wrong. How should I refer to it?
- MMMichael Malice
Sure. Just an anar- ... You could call it an anarchist area or an anarchist society, but anarchism isn't a location, it's a relationship, right? So you and I have an anarchist relationship. Neither of us has an authority over the other. Uh, if there was a dispute, we would not be calling the state. Which state would we call? I mean, the possibility of this kind of international lawsuit's no- nonsensical. And even if you were here or I were there and we got drunk and someone got violent, we're still not calling the cops.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you.
- MMMichael Malice
So, you know, it's ... And every country is in an anarchist relationship with one another. The example I use in the book is if a Canadian kills an American in Mexico, there's no one to call that's above them, right? The three nations have to have some system in place ahead of time to adjudicate this process. And, as we said earlier, we can be certain that they have adjudicated this ahead of time, uh, in that w- ... It's not like when that happens, they're like, "Well, what do we do? Let's call Congress." The process is already in place ahead of time. So whenever someone is in the process of providing services, they're going to anticipate as much of these things as possible so that their consumers are satisfied with it. And we see this in a, done in a very haphazard and ham-fisted way with, uh, uh, governments right now.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, and you can't see in your lifetime there being an area that turns-
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, I can. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's not going to be that hard either. It just has to be even just like a ... There's many or- organizations right now that are trying to basically, uh, make things like hap- this happen, like seasteading or, or other such, uh, uh, situations. I, I think, uh, if people read between the lines, there has been in recent years, ye- or as you would say, years, uh, a lot of hand-wringing over the increasing, um, the legiti- uh, lack of legitimacy of the state and increasing, um, distance between populations and their governments, and they're not feeling represented. And that's something that's healthy, and from my perspective, should be encouraged as much as possible. Although, of course, members of the corporate media think this is a nightmare and disaster because they go hand-in-hand with state power.
- CWChris Williamson
Where do you think would be the most likely anarchist area to rise up first?
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, I have no idea. Uh, in the same way that Marx had said there's no way that Russia's ever going to go communist and that's where it ha- ended up happening. Russia ended up going communist.
- 22:52 – 36:24
Creating the Anarchist Handbook
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. What was unique about the process for creating this book? I know that you were really proud and interested in that.
- MMMichael Malice
Uh, what was unique about it? I think, um, knowing that this ... I, something I took very seriously what was unique is knowing that this is something that's not going to be dated for many, many years, and that, uh, it's going to be the go-to reference book for a lot of people about an idea which, in our internet circles at least, is gaining increasing, uh, currency. So that was, uh, kind of something special.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk me through the writing process and the publishing process. You said that there was a, some lessons to be taken from that.
- MMMichael Malice
Sure. So there was a ... You know, again, I, I, I've been getting a- asked about this constantly 'cause I, you know, I talk about this stuff on all these different big podcasts, and the only thing that had been somewhat comparable to what I was looking for was this book called Patterns of Anarchy from like the '60s. And one of my supporters, this woman named Marla, I was doing a live stream and she went in the Super Chat-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
... and she goes, "Why don't you do an audiobook of this?" And I go, "That's a good idea." And then I go, "Wait a minute. These are public domain. I should just redo it in a contemporary way, update it with, you know, bigger names and more contemporaneous essays." And, you know, and I also, you know, being a collector of many things, I w- ... Knowing how to curate a collection, I knew, okay, these are all the names I have to have covered, and also which are the concepts I want to have covered. So to kind of have that grid, uh, i- it was, was the process.
- CWChris Williamson
And you managed to get it from idea to market in three and a half months?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, it was three and a half months. And now I'm recording the audiobook.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the lessons from that?
- MMMichael Malice
... I have to start recording the audiobook. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
The lesson is my- I don't have s- good enough sound quality in this room yet, so I have to figure out how to do it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I bet you don't. But you went pub- self-published as well?
- MMMichael Malice
Correct, and we- I was the top nonfiction book on all of Amazon for over a day, uh, beating literally everyone. Uh, there was a novel ahead of me in Dr. Seuss, and I was number three. So this, this guy, Obama, you might have heard of. Oprah Winfrey, you might have heard of her. Every president, every PM, I was- Gordon, Gordon Brown, get out of my way. You got nothing on me. Geoffrey Howse, sorry. I was just running the table, and still am. And it's, um, very validating to show people that you can do it yourself and do- and this is another example, like we were just talking earlier about in terms of adjudicating disputes. If I'd gone through a mainstream publisher, let's assume the sales would've been the same. At the very least, it's coming out in 2023.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
So even if the results were identical, I'm still saving two years of my life in- or my career. That is an enormous, enormous difference.
- CWChris Williamson
But dude, I was, uh, saw a tweet from Tiago Forte, who's a productivity coach guru, who's got a deal for his first book, which will be really, really awesome and everyone's excited about it coming out in the productivity community, and he hit the nail on the head and said, "The weird thing about a book is that you need to be able to project the trend two years out and then catch it just at- as it's hitting the inflection point." And he was really fortunate because he talks about building a second brain. It's a personal knowledge management system where you can have all your notes and your summaries and such, like, organized in a very good way on your computer. And Notion and Roam have all had these huge influxes of investment and there's lots of interest and it's been- there's lots of press and publishing around it, and he's like, "This is great," because I think he's maybe one year into the process, so he's looking at the start February 2022, I think is when he's looking at doing it. He's thinking, "Right, yeah, I have managed to time it." But all of this investment and all of this clout that's just occurred within the industry that he's written a book in-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is totally out of his control because the lag time between him coming up with the idea, and even between him finishing the book and then the book finally hitting market is so vast.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, well, there's a- there's a couple other things. No editor who hires me is going to know this field as much as I do, so there's going to be arguments just based on their limited knowledge in terms of, "Why do you have this essay? Why do you have that one?" I don't need to explain myself because I know what I'm doing in this very specific regard. Number two, and this is something people might not appreciate, I did a book a few years ago called Concierge Confidential, I was the co-author, and there's a typo. Page- the end of page chapter one says I'm about too, T-O-O. I told- we told the publisher, they didn't fix it for the paperback, they don't care. With, uh, the Amazon program which I used to self-publish, there was a typo in the book, you fix it, you re-upload it, and since it's print on demand, instantly it's fixed. So, to have that kind of dynamic publishing system is also of- of enormous benefit and a huge advantage.
- CWChris Williamson
It shows now just, uh, it kind of explains why people are so concerned with status and clout in 2021 because with the right audience that's sufficiently bought in and broad enough, you can do some pretty powerful things even up against the powers that be, all of the previous pathways and avenues and contacts that they've got. One guy with 100K on YouTube and a couple of 100K on Twitter can do some damage.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, that's the thing. It's, uh, people want to- when you see someone making it happen on their own, you- you want to be a part of that. You know, this isn't someone who's got some big book deal with Simon & Schuster-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
... and they're rolling out and like, "Oh, yeah, this book sounds good. I want to buy it." But if you see someone who's like, "This book is something I would buy anyway," but it's also someone who I'm a fan of doing it themselves and beating the corporations at their own game, then you really want to cheer them on and feel... And- and there's also that kind of feeling of like, this is my opportunity to actually make a difference and- and invest, what, 20, $19.01, uh, you know, to kind of say, "This is what I want to see more of." So, you know, I- I'm a big fan of Albert Camus. Uh, he denied- he did not like being called an existentialist, he regarded himself as an absurdist, but the existentialist idea that we are self-created, uh, when you see someone who is, you know, you have- the guy who is killing it on Amazon and running circles around all the publishers is awesome, and I had the opportunity to be him. So, I mean, that kind of mindset, uh, you know, I- I give talks at networking sometimes and I tell the kids, I'm like, "If you know someone is in town and they're having their birthday and they're not doing anything, take them out and do it-" I do it for, I say I do it for selfish reasons and they laugh and I go, "No, no, no. That guy is awesome. But that could be you. The only thing stopping you is $30 and an hour of your time." And people don't think in those terms.
- CWChris Williamson
I think this is one of the seductive qualities of a glass door policy when doing any sort of creative process. So people have known that this was coming, you know, it happened at least in terms of the origin on a livestream that other people would have seen.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So they've seen it, right, from seedling to fully grown plant. And for such a long time the creative process has had this sort of mystique and this magic behind it.
- MMMichael Malice
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And now being able to watch that unfold, it's like when you go into a car factory and you go, oh, okay, so that- those four points are going to turn into wheels and then a chassis and then all of the engine's gonna be put in, and you can watch it and then it becomes a car. And there's something fascinating. People say, what is it, that you don't want to know how TV or sausages are made.
- 36:24 – 38:24
What's Wrong With Democracy?
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
I was reading through the book, and one of the questions that I had for you was, what's wrong with how democracies are run? And you- there's this quote that says, "People will say with a straight face that having one choice for dear leader is tyranny, but having two is freedom. Is that second choice on the ballot really the qualitative difference?"That's so good.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. But it's true. If you go to this, I don't know what brands you guys have over there, but if you go to the store and your choices are Coke and Pepsi, and someone can say with a straight face, "Hey, you can choose whatever you want." It's, it's, it's, um ... Or, or if you, the choices are, let's put it another way, if you're partisan, the choices are Coke or, or literal, or strychnine, it's also... You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
But if, there's no ... If your system is set up by design, both ... In America we have primaries, right? So there's a whole year where all these people who want to be the candidate for Republican or Democrat are whittled away, so you're left with two candidates. So the whole process, by design, is to eliminate your personal choices. And they're saying, "Well, we don't have any other options." Well, the option is, "Well, I don't want your crappy system." If your system results that I go into the store and I can only buy Pepsi Cola or Coca-Cola, or Coca-Cola and strychnine, something needs to change on a fundamental level. There's no reason to be represented by someone you dislike or despise or disagree with. And it's not reasonable for you to expect me to buy into your chicanery.
- CWChris Williamson
It is bizarre that you hear people talk about, well, this was the worst of, the, the best of a bad bunch.
- MMMichael Malice
Right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
We're talking about the people that determine the standard of our lives.
- MMMichael Malice
The lesser of two evils. Why ... In no other context are you forced to do this. Can you imagine, like, you, you, like, you, you, you're, you're arrested, and it's like, "We've got two barristers for you." I'm trying to use the lingo. It's like, "This one, uh, you know, doesn't speak English, and, and this one, uh, you know, is, is in a coma." Like, what, what is, what is going on here?
- 38:24 – 45:52
Giving a Voice to Anarchy's Martyrs
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Have you learned any lessons that you've really cherished recently?
- MMMichael Malice
Uh, yes. This was a very, very intense one I learned. Uh, some of the people in this book had been largely forgotten, uh, and that I got to, that I have the power to be the one to redeem them, in a sense, and bring them to a mass audience. And, you know, 100 years after they died, that was a big lesson and it, it, it really did a number on me.
- CWChris Williamson
I imagine that's beautiful to think that-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, but it, it's extremely intense. Like, who the hell am I? You know, I'm, I'm not a modest person, but in this context it's like, you know, these people are hanged. Uh, you know, uh, Lou- Louis Ling was the cover model. He, he wasn't a ... He was sentenced to death, he blew off his own jaw in prison, wrote on the wall, "Hooray for anarchy," in German. Um, you know, he was, like, 23, 24, just total hunk. And, you know, he's ... People forgot about him, and this is someone who valued this worldview enormously. And his courtroom speech where he tells the judge, the judge who just sentenced him to death, like, "You're gonna c-" ... Uh, he's like, "I told the cops, 'You come at us with guns, we're gonna come at you with dynamite.'" And he's like, "I'm for force, and, and I'm f- ... Like, I despise this court. Hang me." So, like, to have his voice, uh, and then, uh, you know, permeate through the decades, uh, and I'm the one who made this happen, is, is, uh, um, very intense. Now, obviously I'm not a advocate of, you know, dynamite, to put it mildly, but it's still, this is someone who was a very interesting figure.
- CWChris Williamson
It's something that I've been thinking about. I heard Rogan say on a show a couple of years ago, one of the best things about having a podcast is being able to find people who are brilliant but don't have a platform, and giving them that. And it-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, Joe said that about Lex when I was on. Yeah, he's like, "I love that I can take this, uh, amazing treasure, Lex Fridman, and, like, give him a bigger audience." And now he's killing it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's, and, you see that now, it's interesting watching the arc, because when you begin a show as a creator, especially like this, you're asking people favors. The power dynamic is that they are doing something for you-
- MMMichael Malice
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... as a fledgling podcaster or YouTuber or whatever, um, but then after a little while, that power dynamic actually starts to shift.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you actually start to think, "Well, hang on a second." You are the prize, which I love to use as a, as an example from Pick Up Artistry. I keep on thinking, "Well, hang on a second, that Jordan Peterson gets to come on here. No one else's clip of him did 1.6 million views. No one else's clip of him did 1.1 million views the week later. No one el- ... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You think, "Well, actually, after a little while, you get to do that." And then you go, "Okay, and not only can I stand toe to toe with these people that I really admire and look up to," which is a beautiful thing to be able to do, but I can also find these diamonds in the rough. Out of nowhere, found this guy called Adam Lane-Smith on Twitter. Wrote a really good fascinating tweet thread about human psychology being just, just some bloke that had been a, a counselor and a therapist for two decades, and I was like, "This is fucking awesome. This thread is shit hot. If this guy can podcast half as well as he can tweet-"
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... this is gonna be ..." And sure enough, brought him on, and he crushed it. Second-highest played podcast. This guy's a, a nobody in terms of clout. Second-highest played podcast of this year behind Jordan Peterson on audio, ahead of monsters, abso- including yourself. And, um, I was just like, uh, he messaged me the other day and was like, "Dude, e- everything's changed." Michaela's brought him on her show, he's now gone on hers 'cause she listened to it and she loved it. And, uh, he was like, "Dude, I've got, uh, I've got clients coming out of my ears. I've got all off- offers to come on a podcast." And, you know, this isn't some sort of simpy, whimpering guy. This is a very capable human being that just required a little bit more pullback on the elastic band of, of the-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... slingshot.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's fucking awesome. So I totally get what you mean. Platforming people, being able-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to give voices to those that deserve one, uh, is, yeah, it's sick. It's endlessly rewarding.
- MMMichael Malice
And, and it's also even more intense when these are people who gave their lives. Um, so like, um, Albert Parsons was one of these people. He was ... There was a bomb in Haymarket in Chicago in the late 1800s. He, he had g- left the rally. They, um, him and his comrades were ar- um, there was a warrant out for them. He was on the lam. He said, "I'm going to stand in solidarity. Nothing's gonna happen." They were all sentenced to death. Uh, you know, we have the letter from these people to their children. Uh, his wife wasn't allowed to see him hanged, and when he went to the gallows, he's like, "Can I say a few words?" And then mid-sentence they killed him. Um, so, and she had his picture on his wall, uh, until she died in 1942. There's a picture of her pointing to it. So, you, you know, to, to be able to ... I'm gonna get into him, you know, on some live stream or something like that. But be able to tell his story, uh, you know, he was, he ... Some of the men were told, "If you ask for, um, uh, um, forgiveness, uh, the governor will commute your sentence," and some of them did. And Parsons said no, 'cause that's admitting guilt. I didn't kill anyone. I spoke at a rally and I left. Like, what, you're sentencing me to murder for my views. Uh, and they, they did it. They killed him. They, he was later posthumously pardoned. There's a monument to him, um, and the others i- in Chicago right now, in a cemetery. But yeah, it's, it's to have people point out, to be the one to point out, uh, these ... They're, they're not giants in terms of clout, as you would say, but they're certainly giants in terms of narrative and in terms of inspiration and in terms of a story, th- that's so ... It's, it's very humbling. And I hate that word, 'cause it has a, it's, often sounds phony, but it's, it's ... Let's put it, let me use different language. It's very jarring and like, awe-inspiring that I'm in this position, uh, to be able to kind of make sure he hasn't been forgotten.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, what's interesting is that someone's quality of work and their ability to deploy that and get it seen by the masses don't always necessarily align. You know, w- we all know the people that have huge platforms and really don't do anything with them.
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
But similarly, there are people who would have deserved a platform, who would have been absolutely phenomenal, but for some reason-
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... wrong timing, wrong place, wrong whatever, didn't do that. And yet, it's, it's odd being able to think, "Well, hang on. This person might be even more capable than me, even at something which I profess to be capable at."
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
And yet I'm somehow the enabler of their access to market or to an audience. It, it is, I can understand why it's jarring. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. Yeah, there's this concept called arbitrage in business, where basically, I think I'm, if I using this correctly, please don't yell at me. But basically, if I see a stock that's at $40 and I know that the market value is $60, I buy it quickly and then I flip it because, and I kind of align it with, with the market. And that's, I think kind of what I'm doing here, is this person is right now, in terms of historical value, is low, 'cause he's not known. And be like, well hold on a minute, this is someone who did matter and someone who was important. So to be able to p- kind of take them out of that dustbin, as I said earlier, and, and, you know, to put them back on a pedestal, I, I think is just, just absolutely a wonderful position to be in.
- 45:52 – 54:24
Battling Cognitive Decline
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I got this lesson that I gotta tell you, right? So the last couple of months, maybe two months or so, I noticed that my thoughts were getting really slow and-
- MMMichael Malice
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it was, it was odd, man, 'cause usually it feels like sort of skating on ice, and it was like walking through a swamp. It was so not like me. And I was walking into rooms and forgetting why I was there, and I was doing podcasts and stuff and l- uh, losing words. You know, I, I, I pride myself on precise speech and precise thoughts, and I was forgetting words. I forgot there's a place called Blackpool near Manchester, a seaside town in the UK, and I spent five minutes internally trying to desperately remember this place on the west coast, and then eventually got Blackpool. And I was like, "What the actual fuck is going on here?" Like, am I, is this early-onset dementia or am I going senile? And I made some jokes with somebody. I was like, "Oh, like, the aneurysm's coming on, blah, blah, blah." But after the Blackpool incident, I was like, right, I, there's something severely up here. Uh, this, this is beyond me just being tired. And I was constantly tired, I was going to bed at nine o'clock at night really fatigued, I wasn't performing in the gym, I was constantly drowsy. So anyway, messaged my buddy, uh, who's a g-
- MMMichael Malice
Wait, hold on, because this happened to me also last year, and I in fact figured out it was a, I developed a dairy sensitivity.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. This, it's not dairy sensitivity.
- MMMichael Malice
Check with ? I mean, for people-
- CWChris Williamson
It might be. It might-
- MMMichael Malice
I mean ...
- CWChris Williamson
... it might have been enabled by that.
- MMMichael Malice
For people listening, if this is happening to you, try expe- 'cause I eat the same thing every day 'cause of my regimen. Try experimenting with your food, which is so in this hippie stuff, but it, it, in my case, this was the case. I'm sorry .
- CWChris Williamson
Well, elimina- elimination diets work like that-
- MMMichael Malice
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... spec- specifically for that reason. FODMAP diet, if someone wants to look at the most, uh, common foods that cause inflammation and stuff like that, use FODMAP, and you take everything out and you add them in one by, one by one. It's a really easy way to do what you're-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, advising there, but it's wholesale approach rather than, oh, let's just get rid of dairy. So anyway, I'm doing this, I message my buddy, I'm like, "Look, what's going on?" He said, "Dude, so tell me about what supplements you've been taking, any changes that you've made, any medication." And I thought, oh actually, sort of about two months ago, this very boring medication that I was on since the start of the year, super like, normal pill. Uh, the doctor had said to, to double the dose. He told me to double the dose about two months ago, sent it to him and he was like, "Dude, that's a, uh, uh, an anti-cholinergic drug." And choline is one of the key neurotransmitters.
- MMMichael Malice
Oh my God.
- CWChris Williamson
So what it-
- MMMichael Malice
Holy crap.
- CWChris Williamson
What it does is it downregulates that, and sure enough, you do a little bit of digging, you go through common side effects for moderate high doses, which is what I would have gone to once I went to the-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... double dose. Drowsiness, fatigue, uh, memory loss, um, dry mouth, which I didn't, I didn't have. Uh, and I was like, dude, like tick, tick, tick, tick. Like, this is all me, right? I was like, well, great. Like, not an aneurysm, but I had managed to knock 30 points off my IQ and basically retard myself to this state where I couldn't remember Blackpool.And I'm like-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... w- it, what's going on? Like, so anyway, easy solution, right, easy solution, not an aneurysm, just get rid, stop, stop taking this particular medication. But what it taught me that, uh, it really was quite profound was the inevitable end point that we're all going to get to with our cognitive decline.
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
And it was really scary, man, because you and, and me and most of the people that are listening probably, we'll, we rely on our cognitive horsepower, raw sheer force to just pull us out of problems. We know that it doesn't really matter whatever kind of a problem we get ourselves into because we have faith that the decision engine between our ears is going to be able to fix it. But there's something so vicious and cruel about the thing that you rely on to fix the problems being taken away from you. And I, I, I have a friend who, whose dad was going through, um, some sort of cognitive decline, and he said, "This disease has taken everything from me, and it's even taken myself." And I was like, wow. Like, and it, and, uh, uh, uh, that quote didn't make sense, and after this last period, I'm aware, like, I forgot the word Blackpool, and I was, you know, misspelling right with right and going into rooms and not knowing why I was there. And thankfully, it's reversible, but man, like if people go back, they can listen to podcasts and I, they might not notice, but if they listen carefully, they can. I'm forgetting words, I can't find the word that I mean, which is totally not like me. So for a brief period, I kind of had, at lea- it was a decline, it wasn't to this, you know, something chronic, it wasn't something as severe as it could've been, but it was really, yeah, it really sort of made me see a lot of things in a different light. It's, it was really, like, insightful but terrifying in the same, same breath.
- MMMichael Malice
And look what it's done to your speech. Half these words you're not pronouncing correctly.
- CWChris Williamson
Shoot him.
- MMMichael Malice
Um, this happened-
- CWChris Williamson
Shoot him.
- 54:24 – 57:13
The Bill & Melinda Gates Break-up
- MMMichael Malice
it's not fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. What do you think about the Bill and Melinda Grape- Gates breakup? Have you looked at-
- MMMichael Malice
I have, I have not been following this at all. Uh, um, I don't find him to be an interesting figure. Um, I, I think he's a nefarious figure, but I don't have enough kind of data to back that up.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah, it's just, it's one of those things. There, there seemed to be when Bezos had his breakup, it kind of made sense.... because you look at Jeff and you've got this sort of nerd to chad, sort of autist to alpha, um, trajectory that he's been on. You think, "Well, yeah, obviously." Like obviously he's the sort of guy walking around looking like Terminator with his Aviators on-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, yeah. Aviators, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and his leather jacket and stuff. You think, "Well, yeah, obviously this was going to happen." But Bill and Melinda, you know, you've got this Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation-
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... so on and so forth. Yeah, it just seemed, it seemed like an interesting cultural artifact. Obviously, it's kind of tied, highly tied to this Jeffrey Epstein thing, and then it would appear that some of the people that were accused co-conspirators for the Jeffrey Epstein case, have you seen that they are now testifying against Ghislaine Maxwell? You see this?
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, yeah, I did see that. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So, but I don't understand how that works either because do you, can someone implicate themselves during their testimony about somebody else? Have they been given deals so that if they testify against her, they're not going to, they- they're going to be safe from no matter what so that they can completely open up about the situation? I think it's gonna be hard to avoid perjury.
- MMMichael Malice
And that's the other thing about anarchism is we're told about equality under the law, but that's completely a lie, and this is a great example, which is, uh, plea, people who plead up, right? "I w- you're, you are a drug dealer, and I wanna, you know, get your boss." And as the prosecutor, I say, "I'm n- I'm choosing not to punish you for your crimes in exchange for your testimony." So, in other words, I am, as the government, as a monopoly in providing security, choosing not to enforce this so-called objective law for the sake of someone who I think is better. That's a value judgment. So, as opposed to, can you imagine a store or a bodyguard saying, "Well, I'm not gonna protect you, this person, for whatever dubious reason." So, that's a good example of how the state and its claims of being fair, reasonable, and objective on a daily basis throws that out the window and says, "This person is more important than this one." Now, there might be something to be said for that, but it certainly is not the case that it's equality under the law.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a really good point because it's a s- uh, you could say this person is further up the food chain because what? Because they make more money?
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Because they tend to be in charge? But it is, at the end of the day, a subjective viewpoint.
- MMMichael Malice
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Why would that person be more of a criminal than this person?
- MMMichael Malice
Or i- if they're both criminals, how are you the one who's like, "Yes, no, no, no, yes," in terms of who you're going to prosecute?
- 57:13 – 1:04:21
Social Media
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. What about the COVID turnaround from Facebook now, the COVID skepticism in terms of the origin of it? Have you had a look at this?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're dropping their, uh, um... I, I, this is, I think, gonna be very revelatory to very many people, hopefully. Uh, and I, my, I pray, uh, every day to Loki that this is going to make some people realize how duplicitous, uh, the overlords are.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- MMMichael Malice
Well, because, you know, to come in with global pandemic, you're coming in, you're asking, we're gonna shut down the Earth, uh, we're gonna shut down any discussion about certain aspects of this. Like you shouldn't... If you question it, we're just gonna lose your social media account, which is something that is something very necessary for very many people, obviously. And now to be like, "Oh yeah, maybe we were wrong," it's just like that's an enormous amount of power for people to have, and to assume that this power is being used reasonably or, uh, objectively has been demonstrated to be false.
- CWChris Williamson
Just to show that they don't have capacity, these people aren't the clairvoyant all-seeing eye that they really need to be.
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
The only way that you would be able to deploy this sort of a rule is if you were omnipotent and you knew, "I know all of the facts, and I can make the most educated, uh, decision." But when essentially what you had was people who knew more than the PolitiFact and the fact-checking organizations and Facebook and Twitter and suchlike, and they were penalized. As much as I hate Brian Rose, and I think the guy's a pleb, uh, he has someone like David Icon-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and he talks about... I mean, he, I think it was 5G lizard people or whatever for him, but still, the skepticism about the origin of COVID was true-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... as much as it pain, much as it pains me to say that. Um, but people were penalized for holding what now is actually considered to be a plausible, if not a realistic view.
- MMMichael Malice
And let's also talk about nuance. Let's suppose, okay, it's completely ridiculously and absurd and nonsensical that COVID was made in a lab in China. Th- that is, might be factually true, but what is truthful is that governments, and I'm not saying this would happen in anarchism, I'm just saying entities, are currently trying to bioengineer viruses. Like, that is a broader point that needs to be addressed rather than the specificity of this case. So, you're doing this baby bathwater situation where you're saying, "Okay, you can't discuss this even as a hypothesis," but at base, there is a 100% certainty that things of this nature are being carried on all over the country by various governments. And you could easily make the case as something that's a good thing. If you bioengineer one, you can reverse engineer it, maybe cure diseases. It, it's, it doesn't have to be nefarious. But what is nefarious is to kind of s- arbitrarily, as Mark Zuckerberg or as Dr. Fauci, uh, who's one individual, draw the line and say, "Not only can you not discuss this, if you do discuss this, this is going to have great personal consequences for you," when it's something where it's, it's, it's not even a person has a vested interest in. It's not like I'm committing slander and going online and saying, "Chris Williamson's this, this, and that," and you can see them coming and being like, "All right, we're not gonna have our platform being used to spread literal lies that Chris did," so on and so forth. These are, if there's anyone who should not be given the benefit of the doubt, it's governments in general. And if there's any one government that should not be given the benefit of the doubt, it's the Chinese government.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah, and there's no recourse either, right? You know-
- MMMichael Malice
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
... you, you lose your account or you're locked out of whatever for X number of months or weeks-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.The recourse is having these, uh, entities be regarded with increasing skepticism and disdain and creating alternative pathways to information flowing, which I think there's an enormous movement online from people who are much smarter than both of us put together to create these workarounds so this sort of thing can't happen in future.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, every couple of videos has a comment from someone citing a new platform-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that I don't know about that I need to upload my videos to. Th- I've got a list of them. I've kept a, I've kept a list somewhere. It's like five or six other video hosting platform. Oh, well, this one, this one's decentralized, this one's on the blockchain, this one's-
- MMMichael Malice
Library's the one I think that everyone likes, or Odyssey, whatever it's called.
- CWChris Williamson
Rumble. Rumble, I think I've told about.
- MMMichael Malice
Rumble's another one, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, look, you know, there you go. (laughs) There's three, there's three different platforms that we're talking about. But man, I remember the first conversation that me and you had about anarchism and, uh, what you were talking about was the fact that how many times do you need to be hit over the head with a stick or mistreated by powers that be so that they show you that they do not have your best interest at heart-
- MMMichael Malice
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... before you start to see that there might be something amiss here. And I don't know whether this is a quirk of my personality or whether it's a British thing.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I th- I think it may be both. Um, British, I think, tend to be relatively orderly.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
We haven't rioted as much when things have occurred. There doesn't tend to be the revolts. Um, that might be a, uh, chronic situation. It might just be an acute one for roundabout now with the way that the culture is at the moment. But for the most part, we tend to stick to the rules, and I've tended to respect rule makers and suchlike.
- 1:04:21 – 1:21:55
Differences in UK & US Politics
- MMMichael Malice
- CWChris Williamson
Did you see the recent local election outcomes in the UK?
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, yes, I did. Oh, very much.
- CWChris Williamson
What did you take away from that?
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, I, I was, uh, uh, giddy. Um, I was giddy because I enjoy seeing any time politicians squirm, because they're very good at hand-waving away, finding excuses, and, and so on and so forth. So to have... So Labour went from Corbyn, who was regarded as, you know, the left of the party, understandably. We have new leadership, we're moderating, we're changing our face. And to have... You know, it's kind of like we were talking earlier about having Coke or Pepsi. It's like, okay, my teeth are rotten. I'm going to stop drinking Coke. Well, I'll just start drinking Pepsi. That's the other choice. So Labour has this, you know, somewhat center left with Sir Keir, or their harder left is Corbyn. They're like, okay, this di-... And it's also funnier because it went Miliband, Corbyn, Sir Keir, right? So it's like, okay, the moderate didn't work. Let's try the alternative. And that's n- that's very reasonable A-B testing. Okay, this was a complete disaster. We've had our lowest levels since like the Great Depression. We're gonna go back to the center. Nope, it's still going down. It's like, I, I... There's only two-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
There's only two buttons. Like what am I supposed to do? So that is, is glorious, and I do think it is also, um, wonderful to demonstrate the insincerity of politicians, and Labour is the perfect example of this. Not that I think Jere- Boris Johnson's a good person. Let me just make that clear. But Labour just codifies this principle I'm about to, to demonstrate. They're called, they're called Labour. The party is called Labour. It's not called the Democrats here. It's specifically the party of labour. It came out of the Fabian Society, the unions, and so on and so forth. As soon as those labor unions, working men started voting Tory to any extent, they're being vilified as Little Britainers, backwards, illiterate, racist, so on and so forth. It's like, wait, wait, so you never cared about labour at all. You never claimed to rep... You, you, you did not really represent the views of your countrymen or else you would have been changing your policies accordingly. You just used them or saw them as a means to gain power, and now that they're a threat to your maintaining power, you condemn and despise them. And there are many members of the Labour, uh, Party who publicly were like, "Look..." I forget the guy's name. I apologize. I'm sure people know who I'm talking about in the UK, who were like, "We've become this party of like university, uh, jerks who have disdain for the common man." This is not who we're supposed to be about, nor is it a path toward winning elections, and he, I think he's absolutely spot on and right. But what's hilarious to me is they have no idea of what to do next, and you see this in country after country. In Germany, uh, the Social Democrats, which are the equivalent of the Labour Party, who have been in coalition with Angela Merkel for a better part... over a decade, they're now polling at like-... 13%. 13%. That's, I mean, just imagine if- if being in a country where one of the two main parties is now down to 13%. So in country after country, historically, these big parties which have had decades of, you know, often running the state or, you know, certainly having, being number two are imploding, and that to me, as someone who has disdain for democracy, is something absolutely wonderful.
- CWChris Williamson
The situation-
- MMMichael Malice
And it's also, it's also funny that, like, in- in just Brit- sorry, one thing in British politics, you have Labor, which is a complete disaster, and then you have Boris Johnson on the other hand. He's not exactly a great guy, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
He's not a slick operator, no.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs) Yeah. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Is this the guy that's defeated us? This one?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, like, like Bonga Banga Land, this is gonna be our PM? It's like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
... but that's where we are. So it's- it's- it's... And the thing I love as an American, there is such a, uh, uh, pretention to- to Brits looking down on us and- and, "Oh, my God." (laughs) It's like, you guys have a lot of lowlifes at the very top. And one more thing that just happened recently, I- I was having, I forgot what it was, I had this tweet and I mean it. I said, "No matter how bad of a day you're having right now, realize that somewhere Theresa May is miserable."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
And when you put it in those terms, it- it's like, it's just great.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
God, what a horrible woman.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, um, I don't know, man. It, uh, uh, watching that situation unfold was crazy, especially from, being from the northeast of the UK, which was this Labor stronghold.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, the Red Wall.
- CWChris Williamson
Hart- Hartlepool, yeah, is where I used to play cricket for years, and yeah. Why?
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs) Cricket for years. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) What was it, the- the-
- MMMichael Malice
The Chris Will- the Chris Williamson story. Cricket for years. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
The arch, the, what was it that I was talking about? The- the chief constable of Hampshire Police or something, and you (laughs) took a liking to him. Um, but you're totally right when you say that it just seemed like, "Okay, what can we do now? What do you want us to say now?" This was Labor's campaign. "So what should we say now?"
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"What would you like us to tell you in order for us to stop depreciating everywhere that we thought that we were safe?" So this is the thing that I found that was really interesting, man. So if it hadn't been for the fact that Trump had lost in November, or that Trump didn't win the election in November. People get mad when I say that he lost. "No, no, no, he didn't lose." It's like, (laughs) , if you accidentally say that George Floyd was killed, people are like, "No he wasn't, he was, he died." You're like, "Oh fucking come on, mate, it's just a term of phrase."
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Anyway. Um, the fact that Trump is no longer the president, right? If that hadn't happened, I think that you would have a fairly robust case to be made that, look, all of this super lefty wokeism stuff, it's just not resonating with the electorate across the board. You know, two of the cultural leaders when it comes to the West, English-speaking countries, it's just not happening. But the Democrat win seems to throw a bit of a fly in-
Episode duration: 1:25:15
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