Mobility Myths | Dr Quinn Henoch

1. 0:00 – 3:16

   Why “mobility” advice online is a confusing minefield

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hello, there. This week I have the pleasure of hosting Quinn Heneck. Quinn is a doctor of physical therapy, he's the head of sports rehabilitation for Juggernaut Training Systems, and the man behind clinicalathlete.com. He is about as no-bullshit as you can get, and I've wanted to have him on the podcast for so long. As far as I can see, mobility is this, like, charlatan rich, awash world where no one really knows what's going on, and there's so much disinformation that it feels like the Trump presidential campaign all over again, which isn't good, right? People need mobility. They want to be mobile within particular ranges of motion. They want to be able to do an overhead squat, and a normal squat, and complete a variety of tasks that require their bodies to be mobile, but there doesn't appear to be any consensus or appropriate information. Quinn does a series on YouTube called Mobility Myths, and as soon as I saw that, I knew that I had to have a conversation with him, and it went better than I could have hoped. I've just about managed to pick my jaw up off the floor after finishing with him. And we go through what the science says about typical approaches to achieving mobility. We look at the word mobility, flexibility, stability. What do all of these words mean in a performance con- uh, context? What are the typical approaches and their efficacy, their usefulness within training, from static stretching, to dynamic stretching, to soft tissue work? What do they actually do, if anything? And I think there's some, uh, there's some very surprising takeaways. Even if you're not a highly functioning or even moderately functioning athlete, even if you're a couch potato, this information is so important to understand how our bodies work in relation to moving. I- I couldn't believe some of the, some of the, uh, summaries that he gave me, and some of the conclusions that he's drawn. Hopefully, we're going to save people an awful lot of time in the gym, and we're going to improve their ability to understand their body and to adapt their training to the needs that they've got. So, I'm gonna stop bloviating here, because this podcast just, it speaks for itself. Hope you enjoy it. Here it is, Quinn Heneck. (instrumental music plays) So, Quinn Heneck, Doctor of Physical Therapy, Head of Sports Rehabilitation for Juggernaut Training Systems, and the man behind clinicalathlete.com, how are you today?

   2. QHQuinn Henoch3:13

      Chris, I'm doing well, man. Thanks for having me on.

2. 3:16 – 6:58

   Defining mobility: from buzzword to “can your joints get there?”

   1. CWChris Williamson3:16

      Thank you for coming on, man. I really appreciate it. So, (laughs) I want to cut sort of straight to the chase here. Um, researching mobility online, for me, can feel a little bit like a, a minefield of disinformation. Um, for every article that says yes to one approach, there does seem to be 20 arguing against it. Do you think there's a, a lack of clarity with what's published online?

   2. QHQuinn Henoch3:44

      Oh, 100%. It's, uh, as confusing as it is for you, it's as equally confusing to me.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:49

      (laughs)

   4. QHQuinn Henoch3:50

      The, the word mobility is not well defined. It's not really defined at all. You know, in, in physical therapy school, when we used the word mobility, it was regarding, like patient in- patients in hospitals, whether they can walk, you know, whether they can roll over in bed, bed mobility.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:08

      (laughs)

   6. QHQuinn Henoch4:08

      It was, like, functional things, functional tasks like that. And so, I think in the last, you know, five to eight years or whatever, the word mobility, this nebulous term has probably the biggest buzzword, you know, has been s- in that timeframe, and I d- I don't think we have a good grasp on it. Um, you know, you'll get, "I- is it synonymous with range of motion? Is it, does it equal the control of movement?" You'll, you'll, you know, see some people describe it that way. And so-

   7. CWChris Williamson4:36

      Covers, covers all range of sins, right?

   8. QHQuinn Henoch4:38

      Yeah, exactly. So, when you say, "Ah, I gotta work on my mobility," we don't, nobody knows what the hell that means.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:43

      (laughs)

   10. QHQuinn Henoch4:43

       So, I try not to use the word, but I have kind of gauged my interpretation of it, because it is so popular.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:51

       Mm-hmm.

   12. QHQuinn Henoch4:52

       I tend to put the word as synonymous with range of motion. So-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:57

       Well, I was going to say, what, what does mobility mean to you?

   14. QHQuinn Henoch5:00

       It, it, for me, it means the potential for movement. Meaning, do you have the hardware to perform the task? Meaning, again, d- do your joints get into the positions that we plan to train? So, if, if we're talking about the hip, and our positions that we want to train is the deep squat, and we want to squat below parallel, or hips below 90 degrees, if you lay on the table, can I move your hip joint past or through that range of motion without apprehension, or, or issue, or a hard, some type of hard block, some type of structural block? And in many cases, the w- the reason I define it like that is because it's a way for me to create the, the, the buy-in that, um, most people do not have the limitations that they perceive to have in regards to their structure.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:57

       Okay.

   16. QHQuinn Henoch5:57

       I think, I think a lot of people b- they, they blame their structure for not being able to hit certain positions in training.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:06

       Mm-hmm.

   18. QHQuinn Henoch6:06

       When the reality is-... those positions and the, or, and/or those training modalities are simply too intense and too complex-

   19. CWChris Williamson6:15

       (sighs)

   20. QHQuinn Henoch6:15

       ... for their particular athletic prowess (laughs) at the time. And so if we simplify the word mobility to simply can your joints get into the positions? Let's establish that first.

   21. CWChris Williamson6:25

       Okay.

   22. QHQuinn Henoch6:26

       And if the answer is yes, but shit goes ... Can I cuss on this show?

   23. CWChris Williamson6:30

       Fire away, man.

   24. QHQuinn Henoch6:31

       Okay. (laughs) If, if-

   25. CWChris Williamson6:33

       (laughs)

   26. QHQuinn Henoch6:33

       ... if shit hits the fan with some type of increase in intensity, be that actual weight on the bar-

   27. CWChris Williamson6:39

       Mm-hmm.

   28. QHQuinn Henoch6:39

       ... you know, velocity-

   29. CWChris Williamson6:40

       Under load.

   30. QHQuinn Henoch6:41

       Exactly. Velocity, fatigue, all these markers that can make something more complex or motor control, uh, is more needed, and then you're unable to hit the positions, well, that has nothing to do with your structure. That has to do with your motor control and your strength, or pick, you know, whatever athletic-
3. 6:58 – 13:54

   Mobility vs stability vs motor control: a cleaner framework

   1. CWChris Williamson6:58

      I was going to say, so does, a- are there other terms that we need that are pertinent to this discussion, stability, flexibility, mobility? I hear all of these terms thrown around. Is there a way-

   2. QHQuinn Henoch7:10

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:10

      ... that you can create a paradigm of how these all fit together in your con- uh, sort of conceptually?

   4. QHQuinn Henoch7:16

      You can try. You know, the reality is, the more terms that we use, the more convoluted things get.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:22

      (laughs)

   6. QHQuinn Henoch7:22

      However, I, I try to, anytime that y- we hear a, a new term or, or start to use a term in this context, I try to see if it's actually been defined in the scientific literature.

   7. CWChris Williamson7:32

      Mm-hmm.

   8. QHQuinn Henoch7:32

      Mobility has not. Stability has been. It's a little bit more consistent in its, uh, in its definition. Still kind of some, some, uh, you know, variability there, but it's actually in the scientific literature. So stability is, is typically defined as the ability of a system to stay and/or return to a homeostasis after some type of perturbation or stressor.

   9. CWChris Williamson7:59

      Okay.

   10. QHQuinn Henoch8:00

       So i- in regards to movement, it's the a- whether or not it's static or dynamic stability. If it's static, I'm trying to hold a position, a desired position, and resist outside forces. That could be the barbell, that could be gravity, that could be a, an opponent.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:17

       Yep.

   12. QHQuinn Henoch8:17

       So that's static stability. Dynamic stability would be I'm attempting to move through a desired path, again, while trying to resist external forces. They, uh, in the literature, they use the word perturbation. Tongue-tied if I say that too much.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:33

       (laughs)

   14. QHQuinn Henoch8:33

       Like pervasion.

   15. CWChris Williamson8:34

       Perturbation.

   16. QHQuinn Henoch8:35

       Pertuba- Yep. (laughs) And, and then-

   17. CWChris Williamson8:37

       Okay.

   18. QHQuinn Henoch8:38

       ... yes. So think about the s- something like the overhead squat. From the belly button up, you're looking for relative static stability.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:50

       Yeah.

   20. QHQuinn Henoch8:50

       Right? You're trying, you're trying to lock that overhead position in place. But from the, from the hip, knee, and ankle perspective, you're looking at a dynamic stability situation where you're trying to move through a desired path while offsetting other forces that are attempting to take you out of said path. And-

   21. CWChris Williamson9:05

       Okay. So globe- globally, how do you put that together when you've got both static and-

   22. QHQuinn Henoch9:11

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson9:11

       ... uh, move, and dynamic stability there?

   24. QHQuinn Henoch9:14

       To me, then the overarching theme is, is motor skill acquisition, um, motor control.

   25. CWChris Williamson9:22

       It's a lot less sexy than mobility, isn't it?

   26. QHQuinn Henoch9:24

       I think it is.

   27. CWChris Williamson9:25

       (laughs)

   28. QHQuinn Henoch9:25

       But that, I think it depends on who you talk to, 'cause I think motor skill acquisition is the sexiest of all.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:30

       (laughs) That's-

   30. QHQuinn Henoch9:31

       Really. I got to ... Oh. Go ahead.
4. 13:54 – 21:02

   Anatomy matters: why squat/overhead positions aren’t one-size-fits-all

   1. CWChris Williamson13:54

      Okay. I think that, I think that starts to zero in on how these elements play together. So, when we're talking about someone's capacity to get into a particular position, I think a lot of the people who are listening will be potentially CrossFitters, power lifters, weightlifters, or someone who's looking at perhaps making the transition across into this. So when we're talking about someone getting into these positions, how much of this is enabled by someone's natural physiology?

   2. QHQuinn Henoch14:27

      It, it definitely plays a part. I think that it plays a part in their ability to catch on right away and/or take more time. I mean, there are people who walk into my door where they've never... You know, it's, it's just like you said, they want to do, they want to snatch or clean and jerk, or they want to squat. They've never done it before, but I just say, "Okay. Well, put your feet, you know, shoulder width apart and keep your feet flat and just sit down as far as you can." You know? (laughs) And I just want to set up, give them, I give them minimal cues because I just want to see what's, what's going, you know, to see what I'm working with.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:00

      Yeah.

   4. QHQuinn Henoch15:01

      And there are some people who just naturally rock bottom, beautiful squat.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:05

      Yeah.

   6. QHQuinn Henoch15:05

      Oh, wow. They're like, you know, they look at you and they're like, "You mean like this?"

   7. CWChris Williamson15:08

      (laughs)

   8. QHQuinn Henoch15:08

      And it's like a perfect squat. I go-

   9. CWChris Williamson15:10

      Yeah. (laughs)

   10. QHQuinn Henoch15:10

       ... "Just like that. Uh, let's try 10."

   11. CWChris Williamson15:11

       So like watch- like watching Ray Williams in front of you or something like that.

   12. QHQuinn Henoch15:14

       Totally, yeah, exactly. So then it's like, okay, that's basically the screen because it passed my, my initial test of can the joints get into the positions? Now this person is going to need very appropriate and s- you know, progressive, appropriately progressed intensity and training and overload and these types of things, but they pass the initial test of the joints going into the positions. There's no need to stretch or try to passively tug and gain more range of motion when it's already-

   13. CWChris Williamson15:42

       Yeah, I understand. I, I definitely feel that sometimes when we're in the gym and there'll be, um, especially a lot of girls who will come in for the first time.

   14. QHQuinn Henoch15:49

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:50

       And they'll have a, we'll be doing a squat snatch workout, let's say, in CrossFit, and they'll come in with a PVC bar and just drop underneath it beautifully.

   16. QHQuinn Henoch15:58

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson15:58

       And there's me, there's me sweating and shaking at the back of the class with my entire posterior chain turned on so hard that I could pick up 200 kilos, but-

   18. QHQuinn Henoch16:07

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:08

       ... I've, I've got a PVC bar overhead and to get myself into that, I've already mobilized for like an hour beforehand, and I'm just about overhead with this PVC bar. And then certain, (laughs) certain newcomers can just walk in and they've got this beautiful overhead position.

   20. QHQuinn Henoch16:23

       And so, you know, some factors that play is natural structure, bony, bony structure. So at the hip there are a lot of factors that can make a squat position just simply more natural feeling and more comfortable. It's like the s- the more shallow a person's hip socket, the, generally the deeper they can squat without feelings of restriction in the hip.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:44

       Mm-hmm.

   22. QHQuinn Henoch16:44

       Uh, hip sockets that are oriented more in front of the pelvis as opposed to laterally will allow the person to squat pretty narrow, uh, and, and kind of sink straight down. The, the angle of the femoral neck. So there's tons of... The point is, you gotta kind of play with position. Squat position and overhead position are very, are variable based on structure, and that definitely plays a role. And then-

   23. CWChris Williamson17:06

       And this technique needs to be taught appropriately-

   24. QHQuinn Henoch17:09

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson17:09

       ... to the person's physiology.

   26. QHQuinn Henoch17:11

       Exactly. There's no, especially with the squat, there, there can't be a one size fits all, because human anatomy is so different. It's just, it just, it's so clear that it has to be tailored to the individual.

   27. CWChris Williamson17:24

       Yeah.

   28. QHQuinn Henoch17:24

       And there are some... Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:26

       I certainly, I certainly notice that sometimes, um, I've traveled around to a lot of different gyms over the last couple of years, and there's certainly some coaches at certain gyms that I've been to who've got the cookie cutter set of cue cards for cues for lifting, knees out, knees narrower, uh, um, toes turned in, whatever it might be. When you're doing, for instance, something like a wall ball, which for me is that a lot of people seem to be able to find their own natural way to drop into a wall ball.

   30. QHQuinn Henoch17:55

       Exactly.
5. 21:02 – 26:00

   “I’m not mobile enough” is often a training-variation and skill problem

   1. CWChris Williamson21:02

      I understand. So someone that may be relatively new to the sport of either weightlifting, power lifting, CrossFit, anything that is requiring a more, I want to say, a m- a more extreme level of mobility, for want of a better term, the umbrella term for the things that we are discussing at the moment. (laughs) Um, someone who has come into that, it's likely that they're going to have some deficiencies within certain ranges or planes of movement. Is that likely to be compensated by some in other areas? Or are there some people who come in and have got really poor mobility globally? I suppose you've got people who are, um, hyper-flexible, and there must be people at the opposite end of the scale as well.

   2. QHQuinn Henoch21:47

      Of course, yeah. Everything's a bell curve, everything's a spectrum. But I will, I, uh, would argue again that the people that walk into the, into the door that say, "Ah, my, I just don't have the mobility," it's because they haven't provided their body with the appropriate variation of the movement to set them up for success. It- it's very common for the person that believes they don't have the mobility to perform a snatch is because all they try to do is max out their snatch and their technique is so horrid and they have not (laughs) and they don't know how to control their bodies that their bod- that their body literally kind of puts the e-brake on.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:24

      Yeah.

   4. QHQuinn Henoch22:24

      And it's very common that we say, "Okay, lay on the table." Their move, their joints move just fine. Or, you know, hold this 10-pound, 10-kilo kettlebell in front of you, do a goblet squat, "Oh, looks like I hit-"

   5. CWChris Williamson22:35

      Squat's lovely. Yeah.

   6. QHQuinn Henoch22:36

      "Yeah, squat's beautiful to me. What are you talking about?" You know?

   7. CWChris Williamson22:39

      (laughs)

   8. QHQuinn Henoch22:39

      And so you are, you are correct though. I- I'm not... There are certainly individuals who, whose joints do not go into the positions. But-

   9. CWChris Williamson22:50

      And then some that go beyond the positions as well, right?

   10. QHQuinn Henoch22:53

       Some that, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson22:53

       Some people that are too flexible.

   12. QHQuinn Henoch22:55

       Some that, some people have a surplus of range of motion, and those are the people that, you know, it's really just, okay, well, you don't need to do anything else but, but train the movements. But train, you know, find the amount of intensity that you can control your position and can come back to the gym day in and day out and you'll probably get better.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:15

       Yeah.

   14. QHQuinn Henoch23:15

       But you don't need to stretch. That's, you know, there is that thing, uh, for those individuals. But even the individuals whose joints don't go there, it's still about finding the appropriate variation in order to load the joint at the range of motion that it currently possesses, and then over time, the body will adapt and range of motion will be increased to the potential of that particular structure. Like some people are just not meant to be Gumby.

   15. CWChris Williamson23:45

       (laughs)

   16. QHQuinn Henoch23:46

       They're just not cut out to be a gymnast, you know? It's, it's that kind of deal. But-

   17. CWChris Williamson23:50

       I think I fall into that category.

   18. QHQuinn Henoch23:52

       Yeah, me too, you know? And it's okay. I've got, when I, when I get the courage here, sometime, sometime I'll, uh, release some footage, some old footage of me doing the lifts and then I'll release the footage of me doing them now and I'll say, "Hey, not a st- not a stretch to be had."

   19. CWChris Williamson24:07

       (laughs)

   20. QHQuinn Henoch24:07

       Uh, ƒ-3, ƒ- this movement. And they're going to be totally opposite. But it, it kind of gets now to the mechanism of s- of stretching and these types of things that-

   21. CWChris Williamson24:18

       I was, I was gonna say, you've touched, you've touched on one of the buzzwords, one of the few buzzwords that we're going to go through today. (laughs) So-

   22. QHQuinn Henoch24:25

       I figured we were going there.

   23. CWChris Williamson24:26

       You are, you've, you were, were directed towards Stretch City. Uh, (laughs) so-Someone has entered the gym. They have the desire to complete a particular movement-

   24. QHQuinn Henoch24:40

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:40

       ... whatever that may be. But they are unable to get into the, into the position, perhaps under load, as you say, or perhaps under fatigue. Typically, I think I've tried to look at broad categories of what I think, um, would be "prescribed," uh, quotation marks, and I think a combination of soft tissue work, static stretching, and dynamic stretching seem to be the kind of go-to, these are the things, these are the camps that you could do something in. I think there's a, um ... Certainly what I see in, uh, my experience is a lot of, um, (sighs) a lot of weight towards static stretching.

   26. QHQuinn Henoch25:27

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson25:27

       But of those three, would you say there's anything else that is commonly prescribed if it's bro to bro in the gym (laughs) ? Or is there, uh, have we covered ... Are those the three, the soft tissue work, the static and the dynamic stretching?

   28. QHQuinn Henoch25:41

       Yeah. That, uh, I, I think that covers it. The other aspect of it is just do more of the movement, which, uh, I'll probably-

   29. CWChris Williamson25:47

       Well, that's what, that's what you'd prescribe, right?

   30. QHQuinn Henoch25:48

       (laughs)
6. 26:00 – 29:32

   Soft tissue work (foam rolling, lacrosse balls, Theragun): what it isn’t doing

   1. CWChris Williamson26:00

      So let's start, let's start with soft tissue work. Can you tell us what soft tissue work is and what people think it does and what it actually does?

   2. QHQuinn Henoch26:10

      Um, th- I mean, to be honest, I don't know the answers to any of those questions, but I can sure as hell try.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:15

      Give it a shot.

   4. QHQuinn Henoch26:15

      Uh, what it is, I, I s- ... We are talking generally about foam rolling, sticking a lacrosse ball in various areas-

   5. CWChris Williamson26:25

      (laughs)

   6. QHQuinn Henoch26:25

      ... uh, whatever (laughs) the foam, the fancy-

   7. CWChris Williamson26:28

      (laughs)

   8. QHQuinn Henoch26:28

      ... the, the gun thing that costs $600-

   9. CWChris Williamson26:31

      Thera, TheraGun. (laughs)

   10. QHQuinn Henoch26:32

       ... to foam-

   11. CWChris Williamson26:32

       Just on the side, just on the side point, one of the guys in our gym has come up with his home solution to this-

   12. QHQuinn Henoch26:39

       Okay.

   13. CWChris Williamson26:39

       ... which is a band saw that he's removed the saw from-

   14. QHQuinn Henoch26:43

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson26:44

       ... milled, milled a solid steel part, welded it in, and it's 60 pounds, so probably about $100, and does the exact, the exact same thing, but has about four times the amount of torque.

   16. QHQuinn Henoch26:55

       There you go. So all of those-

   17. CWChris Williamson26:56

       Sorry, Thera, sorry, Theragun, I'm definitely not gonna get one sent out to me now, am I?

   18. QHQuinn Henoch27:00

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson27:01

       (laughs)

   20. QHQuinn Henoch27:01

       So all of those things, you can ... Whatever foam roller you like, the one that vibrates, the one that's got lights-

   21. CWChris Williamson27:05

       (laughs)

   22. QHQuinn Henoch27:05

       ... the one that has knobs, uh, the ball with the, you know, the-

   23. CWChris Williamson27:09

       The wifi connectivity-

   24. QHQuinn Henoch27:10

       ... cross, um, cross-

   25. CWChris Williamson27:10

       ... that plays you music, it's waterproof, yeah.

   26. QHQuinn Henoch27:13

       Let's just throw all of those things in the same bucket for now.

   27. CWChris Williamson27:16

       Okay.

   28. QHQuinn Henoch27:17

       So those, the mech- ... We have to talk about the mechanisms, what they do, what they don't do. We're going back to the scientific e- evidence here, and it ... There's no evidence currently, there's no evidence to support the common narratives of those things break up your tissue as if we were made of clay. And I want ... So I'll just kind of like let that soak in for a second. There's no evidence to say that you are breaking up your scar tissue or releasing or breaking up adhesions in your tissues using these implements.

   29. CWChris Williamson27:47

       So just, just to interject there, there's micro-tears which will occur in the muscles during training, is that correct?

   30. QHQuinn Henoch27:53

       Yes.
7. 29:32 – 42:37

   What soft tissue work can do: short-term ROM + altered sensation (and how to use it)

   1. QHQuinn Henoch29:32

      It's just not plausible. So what the evidence does say about these things is that they- you can, uh, have short-term range of motion changes, and you can have short-term changes in perception, in regards to what you feel.

   2. CWChris Williamson29:49

      Okay.

   3. QHQuinn Henoch29:50

      So yeah. And, and there ... No argument there. My, my argument is that you can get those same changes with moving. And there is evidence to show that, that they compare like just riding a bike, stationary bike for five minutes versus foam rolling for five minutes. You get the same range of motion changes.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:11

      Within the, the, the legs?

   5. QHQuinn Henoch30:14

      Yeah. Whatever they're testing.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:15

      Yeah.

   7. QHQuinn Henoch30:15

      It's like usually-

   8. CWChris Williamson30:16

      Yeah.

   9. QHQuinn Henoch30:16

      ... like hamstring, whatever.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:17

       Okay.

   11. QHQuinn Henoch30:18

       The, the, the ... So my point is, why not do more of the movement and the, and then you will get the same warm-up effect, you'll hit that inflection point where you're like, "Oh, you know, things feel good now."

   12. CWChris Williamson30:30

       Yeah.

   13. QHQuinn Henoch30:30

       Number two, you will get more practice with said movement. So i- it comes down to the skill acquisition thing. It's just...I- i- it's just, uh, how do you plan on spending your time? Uh, I think my general recommendation with that stuff is if you're going to do it, minimum effective dose, meaning that if 20 seconds is enough to foam roll your glutes or hip flexor or whatever, and you're, that makes your squat feel better, then there's no need to do two minutes of it.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:58

       Yeah.

   15. QHQuinn Henoch30:59

       'Cause there's diminishing returns. You're not breaking anything up, so I would recommend sticking those short bouts in between the movement as a, kind of like a back and forth type of thing.

   16. CWChris Williamson31:08

       Okay. So go in, little bit of a roll.

   17. QHQuinn Henoch31:12

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:13

       Begin your squat, barbell on your back, couple of, couple of repetitions, then back across, roll something else.

   19. QHQuinn Henoch31:19

       Exactly. Maybe three or four rounds of that with your warmup sets of back squat, and then you're good to, like, you're good.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:25

       Okay.

   21. QHQuinn Henoch31:25

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson31:25

       Can you explain about the, the pain perception thing? Because, uh, I know that that does actually have a, uh, you've mentioned it has a contributing, a positive contributing, uh, uh, factor.

   23. QHQuinn Henoch31:36

       Yeah, so what they test is something called pain pressure threshold, where essentially they poke the person. They have like with-

   24. CWChris Williamson31:42

       (laughs)

   25. QHQuinn Henoch31:42

       ... like, you know, it's like think about just poking somebody with your finger. They use a, like a, a pressurized tool to gauge the amount of pressure that it takes-

   26. CWChris Williamson31:49

       Yeah.

   27. QHQuinn Henoch31:50

       ... for the person to perceive it, these types of things. And the person rates the discomfort level, and then they foam roll, and then they poke them again, and there's a decrease in pain perception. I'm gonna make two arguments here.

   28. CWChris Williamson32:01

       Okay.

   29. QHQuinn Henoch32:02

       You can't... Placebo is inherent in everything that we do. The words that I say, the exercises that we give, placebo is inherent in everything. We can't blind the participants to the foam rolling. So there's a-

   30. CWChris Williamson32:15

       (laughs)
8. 42:37 – 46:06

   Static stretching: increased tolerance, not permanent tissue change

   1. CWChris Williamson42:37

      Yeah. (laughs) Okay, so moving on, static stretching. What do people-

   2. QHQuinn Henoch42:42

      Good question.

   3. CWChris Williamson42:42

      ... think it does, and what does it do?

   4. QHQuinn Henoch42:45

      ... it's almost an identical conversation. There- the evi- there's more evidence on static stretching just 'cause they've been studying it longer.

   5. CWChris Williamson42:53

      Okay.

   6. QHQuinn Henoch42:53

      And the evidence kind of keeps saying the same thing, is that we're not really creating permanent changes in the muscle tendon structure, like the pronation angle, the, uh, where the, the tendon and muscle meet, like that juncture point-

   7. CWChris Williamson43:09

      Uh-huh.

   8. QHQuinn Henoch43:09

      ... doesn't really change permanently. It's like not when you s- when you stretch and there's an increased change in range of motion. It doesn't stick that way. It goes back.

   9. CWChris Williamson43:18

      Okay.

   10. QHQuinn Henoch43:19

       So it's a... The way that they describe the effects of static stretching, the reason why it changes your short- your range of motion short term, which it does by the way, just like foam rolling can, is that it increases your tolerance to stretch. So th- so think... It's a nervous system thing.

   11. CWChris Williamson43:36

       Okay.

   12. QHQuinn Henoch43:36

       So think about this. If somebody lays on the table and they try to put their arm over their head and it doesn't quite go all the way over their head, if they were put under anesthesia, it's very likely that that arm would just flop to the table.

   13. CWChris Williamson43:51

       Okay. (laughs) Yeah.

   14. QHQuinn Henoch43:52

       Unless they've got some type of like doorstop in their shoulder joint.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:55

       Yeah.

   16. QHQuinn Henoch43:55

       You know, an actual bony-

   17. CWChris Williamson43:56

       Some serious physical imbalance.

   18. QHQuinn Henoch43:58

       Some people do, and in that case, we're just not throwing a barbell over their head.

   19. CWChris Williamson44:01

       Yeah.

   20. QHQuinn Henoch44:01

       We're tr- you know, we're doing landmine presses or something like that. But anyway, if that, if that same person who was under anesthesia flop- their arm flops over their head, and then they wake up, you know, a couple of hours later and then all of a sudden their kind of that restriction is back, I don't... That's that tone, whatever we want to call that, that nervous system holding pattern is what stretching works into.

   21. CWChris Williamson44:23

       Yeah. So t- um, I'm right in saying it's tone, it's tightness?

   22. QHQuinn Henoch44:27

       I-

   23. CWChris Williamson44:27

       It's to- tone.

   24. QHQuinn Henoch44:28

       You can-

   25. CWChris Williamson44:28

       It's similar to tightness?

   26. QHQuinn Henoch44:29

       That's a word that I've been trying to define for like three years now. I'm not even gonna say it.

   27. CWChris Williamson44:35

       Oh, no.

   28. QHQuinn Henoch44:35

       I haven't said that one. It's not like I-

   29. CWChris Williamson44:36

       I've s- I've opened up, I've opened up Pandora's box of glossaries.

   30. QHQuinn Henoch44:39

       I don't know how to define tone. I don't know what's... 'Cause if somebody's relaxed completely, tone would, would hypothetically be zero.
9. 46:06 – 52:13

   Gymnasts and yogis: why extreme flexibility exists (and why you may not need it)

   1. CWChris Williamson46:06

      Okay. I understand. So can you explain how someone like a, a gymnast or a yoga instructor that I'm sure everyone's got a friend who, well, she's done yoga for five years and she can get into the over splits now or she can do a, a back bend.

   2. QHQuinn Henoch46:25

      Yep.

   3. CWChris Williamson46:26

      Where... If static stretching doesn't elicit a long-term effect, how is it that these people have been able to get into these what appear to be extreme positions?

   4. QHQuinn Henoch46:37

      I was gonna, I was gonna go there and I forgot. I'm glad you brought it back up. There's always a spectrum to things. So let's say somebody is a, is a gymnast and that person has been training for 15 years, since, since the age of like six.

   5. CWChris Williamson46:54

      Yep.

   6. QHQuinn Henoch46:56

      There's a combination... Uh, it's, it's likely, I don't know what, to what extent, but because of the frequency of training... What did I say with soft tissue? If the load is heavy enough, if the frequency is high enough. Because of the frequency over years-

   7. CWChris Williamson47:09

      Yeah.

   8. QHQuinn Henoch47:10

      ... there is likely some type of structural adaptation. But think about the training for a second. It, it's, it's with, with gymnastics specifically, it's very active. Gymnasts can do the splits in the air.

   9. CWChris Williamson47:24

      Mm.

   10. QHQuinn Henoch47:24

       They can do it actively. They can hold these isometric positions. So they've been loading these positions.

   11. CWChris Williamson47:30

       Strength through range as well, right?

   12. QHQuinn Henoch47:32

       Yeah. So my argument is, because based on current literature, it's limited because we don't have a... We're not tracking like a gymnast over the course of years.

   13. CWChris Williamson47:41

       Yeah.

   14. QHQuinn Henoch47:41

       I think that if we did that, you would likely, you would probably see some type of change in the architecture of the muscle. But I'm gonna argue that that change is relatively small compared to the positions that they can tolerate. And I'm gonna go back to the fact that they have trained the ability to tolerate the positions.

   15. CWChris Williamson48:02

       Yeah.

   16. QHQuinn Henoch48:03

       Now they are closer to the person who's under anesthesia, because the person who's under anesthesia has not trained for years to be able to tolerate the stretch of those-

   17. CWChris Williamson48:13

       Yeah. I understand.

   18. QHQuinn Henoch48:15

       So with the gymnast, if you want to think about their nervous system allows them to go there, because they've trained it so often and rep- you know, over the course of many, many years that the nervous system is saying, "Okay, this must be okay. We are not threatened in this position."

   19. CWChris Williamson48:30

       Mm. Yeah, 'cause e- even if, as you say, some of these approaches have a very marginable- marginal or negligible gain-

   20. QHQuinn Henoch48:38

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson48:38

       ... when you multiply that five times a week over 15 years-

   22. QHQuinn Henoch48:42

       Exactly.

   23. CWChris Williamson48:43

       ... that marginal gain actually becomes quite pronounced.

   24. QHQuinn Henoch48:45

       Exactly right. And s- and then, okay, somebody who wants to do a snatch is like, "Oh, then I- you're just, you know, I need to do that." Like, no. You don't need that extreme...... ye- you know, they look at the dream situations and they think that's what they need. You don't have to be a gymnast to do an overhead squat, I promise you. I- in fact, the muscles are not even that stretched. Your knee, the hamstring's not stretched because your knee is bent.

   25. CWChris Williamson49:09

       Yep.

   26. QHQuinn Henoch49:10

       You know, your hi- your hip flexor is slacked because your hip is in flexion.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:13

       Yep.

   28. QHQuinn Henoch49:14

       Your quads, your rec- the only quad that crosses two muscles is your rectus femoris, and that's bent at the, at the hip. So that's slacked. There's really no muscle that is extremely stretched from a lower body position.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. QHQuinn Henoch49:27

       From the u- from an upper body position, it's your lat, to some extent in your pecs, but that wide grip in the snatch, usually not a limiting factor. And if you can do a, a push, you know, behind the neck push press with a s- with a snatch grip, or a power snatch, then you c- you have the shoulders. It's about integrating it. So I think people have this misunderstanding that you need to be, you have to have flexibility of a gymnast-
10. 52:13 – 56:33

    Dynamic stretching: why it’s usually preferable (and the static-stretch power debate)

    1. CWChris Williamson52:13

       Okay. Dynamic stretching up next.

    2. QHQuinn Henoch52:16

       Sure. W- can you def- can you like give me an example? 'Cause to me-

    3. CWChris Williamson52:20

       So I think f-

    4. QHQuinn Henoch52:20

       ... dynamic stretching is like you could just do the movement could be considered dynamic stretching.

    5. CWChris Williamson52:24

       That was something I was going to say. Exactly.

    6. QHQuinn Henoch52:26

       Okay.

    7. CWChris Williamson52:26

       You've, again, you've spoiled, we've spoiled the f- each other's films.

    8. QHQuinn Henoch52:29

       I'm sorry. Sorry.

    9. CWChris Williamson52:29

       We've, the spoilers are out there. It's like Avengers all over again on Facebook.

    10. QHQuinn Henoch52:33

        I'm sorry.

    11. CWChris Williamson52:34

        Um, so dynamic stretching for me would be something like a pendulum swing with your foot. So swinging your foot forwards and back, standing on one leg, and-

    12. QHQuinn Henoch52:43

        Got it.

    13. CWChris Williamson52:43

        ... allowing your foot to swing forward and back, stretching your hamstring, and then I guess your hip flexor and quad at the back.

    14. QHQuinn Henoch52:49

        Yep.

    15. CWChris Williamson52:49

        That would typically be, I think, what I would consider dynamic stretching. Is that anything? Is that just swinging my leg around?

    16. QHQuinn Henoch52:57

        It is definitely swinging your leg around.

    17. CWChris Williamson53:00

        (laughs)

    18. QHQuinn Henoch53:01

        (laughs) So I'm just, you know, first of all, I'm a little grumpy 'cause I'm doing squ- sets of 10 in the back squat and I just got done maybe half an hour after we called. So that, just to kind of give the listeners some context of why we're here.

    19. CWChris Williamson53:13

        Abso- that's, that's absolutely fine. Cutting, swathing through, swathing through the bullshit was the exact reason that I wanted to have you on.

    20. QHQuinn Henoch53:19

        I have taken a, I have evolved s- uh, quite a bit over the past, I'd say eight years on these topics. And I've, dynamic stretching I guess is the lesser of two evils. If it, if you're gonna choose one or the other, I'm gonna just lay on my back and try to tug on my hamstrings, or I'm gonna do a standing leg swing like you described-

    21. CWChris Williamson53:39

        Yeah.

    22. QHQuinn Henoch53:39

        ... I would pick the standing leg swing.

    23. CWChris Williamson53:40

        Why?

    24. QHQuinn Henoch53:42

        Because it is a- because there, uh, there's evidence to show that dynamic stretching can give you the short-term ranges of motion changes, eh, that, and without the power decrease of static stretching.

    25. CWChris Williamson53:55

        Oh, that's something we didn't even touch on.

    26. QHQuinn Henoch53:57

        Yeah. And I'll-

    27. CWChris Williamson53:57

        Can you, can you, can you briefly explain about that?

    28. QHQuinn Henoch54:00

        Sure. So there's, there was a few studies showing that bouts of static stretching, like s- 30 to 60 second bouts can decrease, in the short term, for-

    29. CWChris Williamson54:10

        Mm-hmm.

    30. QHQuinn Henoch54:10

        ... for a short period of time, can decrease your top end power output. So the way that they set up these studies were like, they did a hamstring stretch or like a hip flexor stretch or a calf stretch, and then they had the people immediately go onto a force plate and do a vertical jump.
11. 56:33 – 1:06:38

    The better approach: specificity, practice, tempo, pauses—and stop “warming up around” the lift

    1. CWChris Williamson56:33

       Okay. So, I think we've moved through what I would consider the three main areas that most people would use towards this, uh, zenith term of mobility. Have you got a more optimal approach that people can use? You've alluded to it a couple of times, about doing the movement.

    2. QHQuinn Henoch56:53

       Yeah. D- definitely.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:54

       Is it, is it just progressive overload? Is progressive overload just king of everything?

    4. QHQuinn Henoch56:58

       Um, I mean, uh, ultimately yes.

    5. CWChris Williamson57:01

       (laughs)

    6. QHQuinn Henoch57:01

       But, you know, if we're overloading, overload assumes that you're... Like, we're talking about weight on the bar, but really if we're talking about skill acquisition, weight on the bar will naturally come with time. So, it's mor- getting into the position is kind of a different conversation, but you have to practice. So you mentioned three things, and I pe- I think people spend way too much time doing, and not enough time doing the actual movement. Like, they freak out because they're not happy with the position that they're hitting for like two reps, and they're like, "Ah, I've got to go do this non-specific thing for half an hour now."

    7. CWChris Williamson57:34

       (laughs)

    8. QHQuinn Henoch57:34

       And then when you come back to the, to the training movement, you have to reorient yourself. It's just so much wasted time.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:40

       Hmm.

    10. QHQuinn Henoch57:40

        So, i- so those three things, soft tissue, passive, dynamic, I think in, uh, priority dynamic is probably better, but it's all kind of the same recommendation, in that do it kind of in between the actual movement so that you, you have time efficiency and you also, you get that short-term change in range of motion, but you get to use it right away.

    11. CWChris Williamson58:01

        Yeah.

    12. QHQuinn Henoch58:02

        If-

    13. CWChris Williamson58:02

        I think, I think you, you, we definitely haven't concluded here that soft tissue, static, or dynamic stretching don't elicit a short-term improvement in-

    14. QHQuinn Henoch58:11

        Correct.

    15. CWChris Williamson58:11

        ... someone's range of motion. It's the pathway that that works on-

    16. QHQuinn Henoch58:16

        Correct.

    17. CWChris Williamson58:16

        ... which is, which has been erroneously classified. Is that, is that correct to say?

    18. QHQuinn Henoch58:19

        E- exactly right. And so then that dictates how you implement it. So if you, if, if you do 10 minutes... Let's say you do 15 minutes, I think, is probably pretty standard for people, like 15 minutes of foam rolling, maybe even another 10 of static stretching, like-

    19. CWChris Williamson58:33

        Yeah.

    20. QHQuinn Henoch58:33

        ... it's not unreasonable to think that people spend 25, 30 minutes doing these things.

    21. CWChris Williamson58:37

        Nope.

    22. QHQuinn Henoch58:37

        You, you've probably lost some of the short-term benefit from the first five minutes. You'd have to take it-

    23. CWChris Williamson58:42

        (laughs) You're already off the other end.

    24. QHQuinn Henoch58:43

        (laughs) Yeah, think about it. If you do a total body thing and you hit your, your, you know, calves first, and then you hit your shoulders last, you're probably hitting, you know, do your calves again.

    25. CWChris Williamson58:52

        (laughs)

    26. QHQuinn Henoch58:53

        (laughs) That's how it is.

    27. CWChris Williamson58:53

        It's gonna be like the fourth bridge, you're just constantly painting it.

    28. QHQuinn Henoch58:56

        Yeah, exactly.

    29. CWChris Williamson58:56

        Yeah.

    30. QHQuinn Henoch58:56

        So it's much better to pick one spot and then go use it right away, go load it right away. And the load will, will further allow you to get into a new range of motion. It will further desensitize some of the feelings of restriction and, you know, apprehension to the movement. So that's I think the best way to implement it. And also just you've got to trust the process. If you want real changes in your structure and your movement, you've got to put your head down and commit to coming to the gym for months on end.
12. 1:06:38 – 1:17:00

    Breaking the mobility-tool addiction: long-term process, raising minimums, and where to learn more

    1. QHQuinn Henoch1:06:38

       Uh, uh, you're 100% correct. People see the end product. They don't see that that pers- all those people that you described have been busting their ass in the gym, training for mo- probably years.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:06:48

       Yeah.

    3. QHQuinn Henoch1:06:49

       You know?

    4. CWChris Williamson1:06:49

       10,000 failed reps to get that one-

    5. QHQuinn Henoch1:06:51

       S- totally. Sacrificing other things in their (laughs) life to get there. S- so it's one of the... Chad Wesley Smith of, of Juggernaut kind of, he describes that in regards to programming, like people will look at Ray William's program, or they'll look at Chad's program or like the best of the best and say, "Oh, well, I just need to be on their program." But they, there's a s- there's a process to this thing. You know, those guys, their program now looked nothing like their program when they were an intermediate lifter, and then that looked nothing like their program when they were a beginner.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:07:19

       Yeah.

    7. QHQuinn Henoch1:07:19

       ... so you've gotta- th- this thing, you know, it works in stages. You can't just jump to the end. You can have the- you gotta have the end in mind, but y- it's like you said, you gotta- you gotta trust the process a little bit, and it- it- it takes time. So it was very freeing for me because I've been on that side of the spectrum. When I was warming up, when I first started physical therapy school at the beginning of my weightlifting career, this was like nine, ten years ago-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:07:41

       Mm-hmm.

    9. QHQuinn Henoch1:07:43

       ... I was hooking a band up to every joint in my body. Uh, I was deeply, deeply 1000%-

    10. CWChris Williamson1:07:47

        (laughs) That's sus- suspended from the rig.

    11. QHQuinn Henoch1:07:51

        1000%. I actually-

    12. CWChris Williamson1:07:51

        Kind of like a- like a sex swing in the middle of a weightlifting club.

    13. QHQuinn Henoch1:07:55

        No, I wouldn't even go into the gym yet because I had too much u- too much gear to throw around. Like I had to go into the like the, uh, indoor track because I had to spread out all my bands and all my foam rollers and all- and the balls, all my lacrosse balls.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:08:09

        Mm-hmm. It's like an- like an obstacle course of mobility tools.

    15. QHQuinn Henoch1:08:12

        Yeah. And I, and I- it was an hour, like easily an hour of spending time doing that. And then I would s- and then I would have to spend 30 minutes trying to get into the positions because that stuff just didn't really have that big of an effect. But when I started to forget that and started to pay more attention to the positions and stay lighter for longer, like not like empty bar, 'cause sometimes you need a little bit of weight to feel the positions.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:08:36

        Yeah.

    17. QHQuinn Henoch1:08:36

        But I wouldn't, I started to not- to increase load. I started to think about it in a different way. I started to ask myself different questions. Is it too heavy for me to lift or is it too heavy for me to lift the way I want to?

    18. CWChris Williamson1:08:47

        Yeah.

    19. QHQuinn Henoch1:08:47

        And some of those thresholds are a little different. So I would stay in the latter for longer, and my body's lo and behold started to become more comfortable and consistent with those positions. And so I started to take the approach of raising my minimums instead of trying to worry about my top end all the time. And my move-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:09:06

        That's-

    21. QHQuinn Henoch1:09:06

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:09:06

        I think that's so, that's so correct.

    23. QHQuinn Henoch1:09:09

        My- my movement and mobility, however you wanna call those things, all that stuff improved when I started just thinking about training as a process. And it was very liberating when I stopped- but it took some time and it wasn't cold turkey, I'll tell you that right now.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:09:25

        Yeah.

    25. QHQuinn Henoch1:09:25

        But when I slowly started to cut that stuff out, like, oh, this- this drill or this like band distraction drill isn't quite working for me. I'll just, I'll chop this one. I'll keep everything else, but I'll chop this one. And over the course of, it probably took, I mean, honestly, it probably took a couple years-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:09:40

        Yeah.

    27. QHQuinn Henoch1:09:40

        ... to really where I am now. But it was very, very liberating. It's very liberating to just come into the gym, like I'll do some like, I call them knee bends. I do like a bunch of quarter squats in my bare feet.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:09:51

        Yep.

    29. QHQuinn Henoch1:09:52

        Just like a dip and drive, dip and drive, dip and drive to like warm up my ankles, to warm up my knees, to just kind of get some blood flow, for lack of a better term or whatever.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:10:00

        Yep.

Episode duration: 1:16:58