Mobility Myths | Dr Quinn Henoch

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Hello, there. This…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hello, there. This week I have the pleasure of hosting Quinn Heneck. Quinn is a doctor of physical therapy, he's the head of sports rehabilitation for Juggernaut Training Systems, and the man behind clinicalathlete.com. He is about as no-bullshit as you can get, and I've wanted to have him on the podcast for so long. As far as I can see, mobility is this, like, charlatan rich, awash world where no one really knows what's going on, and there's so much disinformation that it feels like the Trump presidential campaign all over again, which isn't good, right? People need mobility. They want to be mobile within particular ranges of motion. They want to be able to do an overhead squat, and a normal squat, and complete a variety of tasks that require their bodies to be mobile, but there doesn't appear to be any consensus or appropriate information. Quinn does a series on YouTube called Mobility Myths, and as soon as I saw that, I knew that I had to have a conversation with him, and it went better than I could have hoped. I've just about managed to pick my jaw up off the floor after finishing with him. And we go through what the science says about typical approaches to achieving mobility. We look at the word mobility, flexibility, stability. What do all of these words mean in a performance con- uh, context? What are the typical approaches and their efficacy, their usefulness within training, from static stretching, to dynamic stretching, to soft tissue work? What do they actually do, if anything? And I think there's some, uh, there's some very surprising takeaways. Even if you're not a highly functioning or even moderately functioning athlete, even if you're a couch potato, this information is so important to understand how our bodies work in relation to moving. I- I couldn't believe some of the, some of the, uh, summaries that he gave me, and some of the conclusions that he's drawn. Hopefully, we're going to save people an awful lot of time in the gym, and we're going to improve their ability to understand their body and to adapt their training to the needs that they've got. So, I'm gonna stop bloviating here, because this podcast just, it speaks for itself. Hope you enjoy it. Here it is, Quinn Heneck. (instrumental music plays) So, Quinn Heneck, Doctor of Physical Therapy, Head of Sports Rehabilitation for Juggernaut Training Systems, and the man behind clinicalathlete.com, how are you today?

   2. QHQuinn Henoch3:13

      Chris, I'm doing well, man. Thanks for having me on.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:16

      Thank you for coming on, man. I really appreciate it. So, (laughs) I want to cut sort of straight to the chase here. Um, researching mobility online, for me, can feel a little bit like a, a minefield of disinformation. Um, for every article that says yes to one approach, there does seem to be 20 arguing against it. Do you think there's a, a lack of clarity with what's published online?

   4. QHQuinn Henoch3:44

      Oh, 100%. It's, uh, as confusing as it is for you, it's as equally confusing to me.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:49

      (laughs)

   6. QHQuinn Henoch3:50

      The, the word mobility is not well defined. It's not really defined at all. You know, in, in physical therapy school, when we used the word mobility, it was regarding, like patient in- patients in hospitals, whether they can walk, you know, whether they can roll over in bed, bed mobility.

   7. CWChris Williamson4:08

      (laughs)

   8. QHQuinn Henoch4:08

      It was, like, functional things, functional tasks like that. And so, I think in the last, you know, five to eight years or whatever, the word mobility, this nebulous term has probably the biggest buzzword, you know, has been s- in that timeframe, and I d- I don't think we have a good grasp on it. Um, you know, you'll get, "I- is it synonymous with range of motion? Is it, does it equal the control of movement?" You'll, you'll, you know, see some people describe it that way. And so-

   9. CWChris Williamson4:36

      Covers, covers all range of sins, right?

   10. QHQuinn Henoch4:38

       Yeah, exactly. So, when you say, "Ah, I gotta work on my mobility," we don't, nobody knows what the hell that means.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:43

       (laughs)

   12. QHQuinn Henoch4:43

       So, I try not to use the word, but I have kind of gauged my interpretation of it, because it is so popular.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:51

       Mm-hmm.

   14. QHQuinn Henoch4:52

       I tend to put the word as synonymous with range of motion. So-

   15. CWChris Williamson4:57

       Well, I was going to say, what, what does mobility mean to you?

   16. QHQuinn Henoch5:00

       It, it, for me, it means the potential for movement. Meaning, do you have the hardware to perform the task? Meaning, again, d- do your joints get into the positions that we plan to train? So, if, if we're talking about the hip, and our positions that we want to train is the deep squat, and we want to squat below parallel, or hips below 90 degrees, if you lay on the table, can I move your hip joint past or through that range of motion without apprehension, or, or issue, or a hard, some type of hard block, some type of structural block? And in many cases, the w- the reason I define it like that is because it's a way for me to create the, the, the buy-in that, um, most people do not have the limitations that they perceive to have in regards to their structure.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:57

       Okay.

   18. QHQuinn Henoch5:57

       I think, I think a lot of people b- they, they blame their structure for not being able to hit certain positions in training.

   19. CWChris Williamson6:06

       Mm-hmm.

   20. QHQuinn Henoch6:06

       When the reality is-... those positions and the, or, and/or those training modalities are simply too intense and too complex-

   21. CWChris Williamson6:15

       (sighs)

   22. QHQuinn Henoch6:15

       ... for their particular athletic prowess (laughs) at the time. And so if we simplify the word mobility to simply can your joints get into the positions? Let's establish that first.

   23. CWChris Williamson6:25

       Okay.

   24. QHQuinn Henoch6:26

       And if the answer is yes, but shit goes ... Can I cuss on this show?

   25. CWChris Williamson6:30

       Fire away, man.

   26. QHQuinn Henoch6:31

       Okay. (laughs) If, if-

   27. CWChris Williamson6:33

       (laughs)

   28. QHQuinn Henoch6:33

       ... if shit hits the fan with some type of increase in intensity, be that actual weight on the bar-

   29. CWChris Williamson6:39

       Mm-hmm.

   30. QHQuinn Henoch6:39

       ... you know, velocity-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. QHQuinn Henoch15:00

      see what I'm working with.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:00

      Yeah.

   3. QHQuinn Henoch15:01

      And there are some people who just naturally rock bottom, beautiful squat.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:05

      Yeah.

   5. QHQuinn Henoch15:05

      Oh, wow. They're like, you know, they look at you and they're like, "You mean like this?"

   6. CWChris Williamson15:08

      (laughs)

   7. QHQuinn Henoch15:08

      And it's like a perfect squat. I go-

   8. CWChris Williamson15:10

      Yeah. (laughs)

   9. QHQuinn Henoch15:10

      ... "Just like that. Uh, let's try 10."

   10. CWChris Williamson15:11

       So like watch- like watching Ray Williams in front of you or something like that.

   11. QHQuinn Henoch15:14

       Totally, yeah, exactly. So then it's like, okay, that's basically the screen because it passed my, my initial test of can the joints get into the positions? Now this person is going to need very appropriate and s- you know, progressive, appropriately progressed intensity and training and overload and these types of things, but they pass the initial test of the joints going into the positions. There's no need to stretch or try to passively tug and gain more range of motion when it's already-

   12. CWChris Williamson15:42

       Yeah, I understand. I, I definitely feel that sometimes when we're in the gym and there'll be, um, especially a lot of girls who will come in for the first time.

   13. QHQuinn Henoch15:49

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson15:50

       And they'll have a, we'll be doing a squat snatch workout, let's say, in CrossFit, and they'll come in with a PVC bar and just drop underneath it beautifully.

   15. QHQuinn Henoch15:58

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson15:58

       And there's me, there's me sweating and shaking at the back of the class with my entire posterior chain turned on so hard that I could pick up 200 kilos, but-

   17. QHQuinn Henoch16:07

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:08

       ... I've, I've got a PVC bar overhead and to get myself into that, I've already mobilized for like an hour beforehand, and I'm just about overhead with this PVC bar. And then certain, (laughs) certain newcomers can just walk in and they've got this beautiful overhead position.

   19. QHQuinn Henoch16:23

       And so, you know, some factors that play is natural structure, bony, bony structure. So at the hip there are a lot of factors that can make a squat position just simply more natural feeling and more comfortable. It's like the s- the more shallow a person's hip socket, the, generally the deeper they can squat without feelings of restriction in the hip.

   20. CWChris Williamson16:44

       Mm-hmm.

   21. QHQuinn Henoch16:44

       Uh, hip sockets that are oriented more in front of the pelvis as opposed to laterally will allow the person to squat pretty narrow, uh, and, and kind of sink straight down. The, the angle of the femoral neck. So there's tons of... The point is, you gotta kind of play with position. Squat position and overhead position are very, are variable based on structure, and that definitely plays a role. And then-

   22. CWChris Williamson17:06

       And this technique needs to be taught appropriately-

   23. QHQuinn Henoch17:09

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:09

       ... to the person's physiology.

   25. QHQuinn Henoch17:11

       Exactly. There's no, especially with the squat, there, there can't be a one size fits all, because human anatomy is so different. It's just, it just, it's so clear that it has to be tailored to the individual.

   26. CWChris Williamson17:24

       Yeah.

   27. QHQuinn Henoch17:24

       And there are some... Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson17:26

       I certainly, I certainly notice that sometimes, um, I've traveled around to a lot of different gyms over the last couple of years, and there's certainly some coaches at certain gyms that I've been to who've got the cookie cutter set of cue cards for cues for lifting, knees out, knees narrower, uh, um, toes turned in, whatever it might be. When you're doing, for instance, something like a wall ball, which for me is that a lot of people seem to be able to find their own natural way to drop into a wall ball.

   29. QHQuinn Henoch17:55

       Exactly.

   30. CWChris Williamson17:56

       And, and for me that involves driving my knees out quite wide, and that feels lovely, and I know that I'm efficient, and I know that it's safe, and I know that I don't get injured doing it that way. And then, as you say, sometimes you may go see a coach or be to a new gym, and they've got their, um, preconception about how you should be moving.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Within the, the, the…

   1. QHQuinn Henoch30:00

      with moving. And there is evidence to show that, that they compare like just riding a bike, stationary bike for five minutes versus foam rolling for five minutes. You get the same range of motion changes.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:11

      Within the, the, the legs?

   3. QHQuinn Henoch30:14

      Yeah. Whatever they're testing.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:15

      Yeah.

   5. QHQuinn Henoch30:15

      It's like usually-

   6. CWChris Williamson30:16

      Yeah.

   7. QHQuinn Henoch30:16

      ... like hamstring, whatever.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:17

      Okay.

   9. QHQuinn Henoch30:18

      The, the, the ... So my point is, why not do more of the movement and the, and then you will get the same warm-up effect, you'll hit that inflection point where you're like, "Oh, you know, things feel good now."

   10. CWChris Williamson30:30

       Yeah.

   11. QHQuinn Henoch30:30

       Number two, you will get more practice with said movement. So i- it comes down to the skill acquisition thing. It's just...I- i- it's just, uh, how do you plan on spending your time? Uh, I think my general recommendation with that stuff is if you're going to do it, minimum effective dose, meaning that if 20 seconds is enough to foam roll your glutes or hip flexor or whatever, and you're, that makes your squat feel better, then there's no need to do two minutes of it.

   12. CWChris Williamson30:58

       Yeah.

   13. QHQuinn Henoch30:59

       'Cause there's diminishing returns. You're not breaking anything up, so I would recommend sticking those short bouts in between the movement as a, kind of like a back and forth type of thing.

   14. CWChris Williamson31:08

       Okay. So go in, little bit of a roll.

   15. QHQuinn Henoch31:12

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson31:13

       Begin your squat, barbell on your back, couple of, couple of repetitions, then back across, roll something else.

   17. QHQuinn Henoch31:19

       Exactly. Maybe three or four rounds of that with your warmup sets of back squat, and then you're good to, like, you're good.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:25

       Okay.

   19. QHQuinn Henoch31:25

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:25

       Can you explain about the, the pain perception thing? Because, uh, I know that that does actually have a, uh, you've mentioned it has a contributing, a positive contributing, uh, uh, factor.

   21. QHQuinn Henoch31:36

       Yeah, so what they test is something called pain pressure threshold, where essentially they poke the person. They have like with-

   22. CWChris Williamson31:42

       (laughs)

   23. QHQuinn Henoch31:42

       ... like, you know, it's like think about just poking somebody with your finger. They use a, like a, a pressurized tool to gauge the amount of pressure that it takes-

   24. CWChris Williamson31:49

       Yeah.

   25. QHQuinn Henoch31:50

       ... for the person to perceive it, these types of things. And the person rates the discomfort level, and then they foam roll, and then they poke them again, and there's a decrease in pain perception. I'm gonna make two arguments here.

   26. CWChris Williamson32:01

       Okay.

   27. QHQuinn Henoch32:02

       You can't... Placebo is inherent in everything that we do. The words that I say, the exercises that we give, placebo is inherent in everything. We can't blind the participants to the foam rolling. So there's a-

   28. CWChris Williamson32:15

       (laughs)

   29. QHQuinn Henoch32:16

       ... the, the thing about it-

   30. CWChris Williamson32:16

       You just don't, don't think about what's happening. Ignore-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yep. Yep. …

   1. QHQuinn Henoch45:00

      range of motion will, will give you that same change in range of motion as static stretching. And they've also shown that PNF stretching, contr- contract-relax, adding some load to the stretch actively-

   2. CWChris Williamson45:12

      Yep. Yep.

   3. QHQuinn Henoch45:13

      ... is a better alternative as well. It gives you sh- range of motion changes faster, um-

   4. CWChris Williamson45:17

      A, ahead of, ahead of static stretching?

   5. QHQuinn Henoch45:19

      Correct. So this says to me, like... My favorite hamstring stretch is an RDL. Like a- hold a light kettlebell. Romanian dead lift. Hold a light kettlebell, hold it between your legs and just kind of sink into that hip, hip hinge position.

   6. CWChris Williamson45:32

      Yep.

   7. QHQuinn Henoch45:33

      Take a couple breaths. Sink a little bit further. So it's like a light bell.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:37

      Yeah.

   9. QHQuinn Henoch45:37

      You know, something that you can hold and sustain.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:39

       Yeah.

   11. QHQuinn Henoch45:39

       That you're letting that weight do its thing, you're letting gravity do its thing. All the while, your hamstrings are still being contracted eccentrically-

   12. CWChris Williamson45:45

       Yeah.

   13. QHQuinn Henoch45:46

       ... but, you know, but they're also being stretched. So that's kind of a, an example of what people have, like, described or what we talk about as, like, loaded mobility. Uh, get into the positions and hang out there.

   14. CWChris Williamson45:58

       Yeah.

   15. QHQuinn Henoch45:58

       You know? It's, it's active. Your body... You'll, you'll melt in- into position and then you'll, you'll have the same effects with the skill of the position.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:06

       Okay. I understand. So can you explain how someone like a, a gymnast or a yoga instructor that I'm sure everyone's got a friend who, well, she's done yoga for five years and she can get into the over splits now or she can do a, a back bend.

   17. QHQuinn Henoch46:25

       Yep.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:26

       Where... If static stretching doesn't elicit a long-term effect, how is it that these people have been able to get into these what appear to be extreme positions?

   19. QHQuinn Henoch46:37

       I was gonna, I was gonna go there and I forgot. I'm glad you brought it back up. There's always a spectrum to things. So let's say somebody is a, is a gymnast and that person has been training for 15 years, since, since the age of like six.

   20. CWChris Williamson46:54

       Yep.

   21. QHQuinn Henoch46:56

       There's a combination... Uh, it's, it's likely, I don't know what, to what extent, but because of the frequency of training... What did I say with soft tissue? If the load is heavy enough, if the frequency is high enough. Because of the frequency over years-

   22. CWChris Williamson47:09

       Yeah.

   23. QHQuinn Henoch47:10

       ... there is likely some type of structural adaptation. But think about the training for a second. It, it's, it's with, with gymnastics specifically, it's very active. Gymnasts can do the splits in the air.

   24. CWChris Williamson47:24

       Mm.

   25. QHQuinn Henoch47:24

       They can do it actively. They can hold these isometric positions. So they've been loading these positions.

   26. CWChris Williamson47:30

       Strength through range as well, right?

   27. QHQuinn Henoch47:32

       Yeah. So my argument is, because based on current literature, it's limited because we don't have a... We're not tracking like a gymnast over the course of years.

   28. CWChris Williamson47:41

       Yeah.

   29. QHQuinn Henoch47:41

       I think that if we did that, you would likely, you would probably see some type of change in the architecture of the muscle. But I'm gonna argue that that change is relatively small compared to the positions that they can tolerate. And I'm gonna go back to the fact that they have trained the ability to tolerate the positions.

   30. CWChris Williamson48:02

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yep. …

   1. QHQuinn Henoch1:00:00

      "All right. That squat felt like shit. I'm gonna take that 20 or 30 minutes that I was gonna do this non-specific thing-"

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:06

      Yep.

   3. QHQuinn Henoch1:00:06

      "... and I'm just gonna do 20 or 30 more minutes of like squatting." Like-

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:09

      I was gonna say-

   5. QHQuinn Henoch1:00:10

      ... right?

   6. CWChris Williamson1:00:10

      ... we could, we could try and do an experiment with the listeners right now.

   7. QHQuinn Henoch1:00:15

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:00:15

      And the next time that someone goes into the gym, and a particular movement, let's say that it's squat, because this would be applicable to a front squat, a back squat, or an overhead squat, instead of them going away, or instead of them beginning a session before going and doing this movement with foam rolling and the static stretching and the dynamic stretching, what would you have them do instead? Work up from a PVC bar, get themselves warm and then start to put a little bit of weight on the bar and move around for that half an hour instead, focusing on movement quality?

   9. QHQuinn Henoch1:00:51

      Yeah. I don't think it really has to be like half an hour. I think that's overkill, but we always have fun. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

       Yes, well, you'd be, you'd, you'd, you'd definitely be knackered by the end of that.

   11. QHQuinn Henoch1:00:57

       Yeah. Now, the, the... It's hard... The exact way that I would tweak the movement for their specific-... parameters, 'cause there are ways. You can elevate your heels a little bit, you can use a little bit of weight, like just enough weight so you can feel the movement to get you down there. Um, but it's hard to say a- on that general thing because, uh, everybody's a little different. But what I would recommend is that you slow the tempo down, you find a little bit of load in which you can, you can pause at your end range, what, uh, currently is your end range, and that you can go slow in both directions and really feel the movement. And I bet that over the course of five, 10, 15 minutes, your body, for lack of a better term, starts to melt into position, just like it would if you were static stretching, but in this case, you're practicing the movement, and you would hit that inflection point of feeling warm. You know that feeling where you're like something inside of you just clicks and you're like, "Okay, I'm ready." It goes out-

   12. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

       My body gets so... It's like, um, it's kind of like body lucidity, right?

   13. QHQuinn Henoch1:01:56

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:01:56

       It's like everything's moving, the, the central nervous system's firing. We haven't mentioned CNS yet, or t- too much yet, but the c- Well, it's all CNS related. Yep.

   15. QHQuinn Henoch1:02:06

       It's all CNS mediated.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:02:07

       Yeah.

   17. QHQuinn Henoch1:02:08

       And s- and I don't know what that inflection point is, I don't know what we could call it, but it's that moment where you're like, "All right, I'm ready to... I got... I'm greasing the groove. Like, mentally, I'm there. My body feels good. Let's add some weight." Like, I'm wearing-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:02:18

       It's weird. It's weird, isn't it? It's going from-

   19. QHQuinn Henoch1:02:20

       It is.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

       ... it's going from getting out of the car and, "Shit, I need to let the dog out later on," to-

   21. QHQuinn Henoch1:02:26

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:02:26

       ... "I'm here to train." And there is, you're right, 'cause it's, at what point do you go from being that guy to the guy that's ready to PR his squat clean or whatever it might be?

   23. QHQuinn Henoch1:02:38

       And s- and I would argue that the fastest point from the d- the time that you walk in to the time that you get to that point is a straight line, and that straight line is doing the movement, doing more of the movement, doing the movement, doing more of the movement-

   24. CWChris Williamson1:02:50

       Yep.

   25. QHQuinn Henoch1:02:51

       ... with pauses, with tempos. Now, again, again, over the course of that experiment, you may, you might find that, "You know what? This gives me 80%. All the passive stuff is only giving me about 20%. This gives me 80%, but I still want that extra little boost." That's where you can layer on that other stuff in between.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:03:09

       Yeah.

   27. QHQuinn Henoch1:03:09

       But I would s- I would recommend, if you can, cut as much of that out as you can in the beginning and focus on more of the movement with light loads and, you know, incrementally smaller jumps than you're used to, and see if your body doesn't hit that sweet spot anyway. 'Cause, 'cause aren't you... Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you gonna have to reorient yourself to the movement regardless? Like, let's say you walk over to the barbell, you do your first overhead squat, you're like, "That feels like garbage."

   28. CWChris Williamson1:03:35

       Yep.

   29. QHQuinn Henoch1:03:35

       Then you go do all your passive stuff. Are you not gonna have to go back and do the bar warm-up anyway to warmth-

   30. CWChris Williamson1:03:41

       Refamiliarize yourself with your grip-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:17:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. CWChris Williamson1:15:00

      I, I couldn't thank you enough for this. I think, um, hopefully, we will have opened some people's eyes. I think that going by what the science says is something that we're prepared to take when it comes to medicine. A lot of people are very skeptical of esoteric new wave solutions-

   2. QHQuinn Henoch1:15:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:15:19

      ... holistic solutions. But because of the disinformation and because of the lack of, um, clarity when it comes to stuff like mobility and physical training, people are prepared to take whatever's in front of them or whatever everyone else does.

   4. QHQuinn Henoch1:15:34

      Right.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:15:34

      And I think, I think that going by what the science says, which is what you've presented us with today, is definitely giving people all of the facts. And then I suppose (laughs) what they choose to do with it, whether they're able to relinquish their stretching routine from here is a, a decision of theirs.

   6. QHQuinn Henoch1:15:48

      Oh, uh, and that's the thing too, and I, I'm no- I don't- I fall into the same camp. You know, we've got to, we've all got to question our biases a little bit-

   7. CWChris Williamson1:15:57

      Mm-hmm.

   8. QHQuinn Henoch1:15:57

      ... and be open to changing our ideas if evidence is presented to us, you know, or don't, but-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:16:04

      (laughs)

   10. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:04

       ... at least acknowledge that it's there. And again, that goes for me too. And so, uh, these are the ideas and thoughts as, uh, as, as I'm interpreting the current literature.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:16:14

       Yeah.

   12. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:14

       And, and, you know, if we do another show in three years-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:16:18

       Maybe, maybe.

   14. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:18

       ... maybe my state of mind has changed and maybe I'm more affirmed in these ideas based on-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:16:22

       Or maybe you sat there, maybe you sat there dual wielding Theraguns and-

   16. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:26

       Ex- yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:16:27

       (laughs)

   18. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:27

       Maybe I'm a real estate agent.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:16:28

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:28

       You know, I switch careers completely and you, you know, you interview me on why, uh, why my life changed, so who knows?

   21. CWChris Williamson1:16:34

       (laughs) Quinn, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

   22. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:38

       Uh, thank you, Chris. It was, it was a blast.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:16:40

       Cheers, man. Bye-bye.

   24. QHQuinn Henoch1:16:41

       All right.

Episode duration: 1:16:58