Modern Wisdom"Modern Dating Makes People More Insecure" - Matthew Hussey
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,305 words- 0:00 – 1:13
Intro
- MHMatthew Hussey
To the guys that say there are women who say they want vulnerability, and then as soon as I actually cry, not cute cry, they're out, I don't think that's someone who is capable of having a real relationship. I think that's a woman who says that she wants a real relationship, but hasn't grown enough to truly understand men. And truly understanding men might be understanding that there are some things you will or won't like, and also that there are parts of him that are very much not different from you at all. And if you're looking for someone who's bulletproof and strong all the time, then there's some growing up to do. (airplane whoosh)
- CWChris Williamson
You are one of the best-known dating coaches on the planet. How many clients have you worked with?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, worked with, I don't know. It must be hundreds of thousands, but millions online. I think that we've got about eight million people that follow, and half a billion views now on YouTube-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- MHMatthew Hussey
... which is crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
Lots. So you mostly work with women.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If th- because of that, if anybody has an insight into the psychology of females in the modern dating market, that should be you. Given that you've been doing this for 15 years, what are the biggest changes that you have seen in what women want
- 1:13 – 4:42
What has Changed in What Women Want?
- CWChris Williamson
during that time?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm. In what women want, I suppose... I don't think a lot changes about what people want, but I suppose if I were to make a cultural observation, it would be... It would come up for people that, "How do I find someone who's either playing at my level or someone who accepts my level, whether it's financially or what I've achieved in my life, the work that I do?" That's something that, you know, is obviously a modern-day thing, and I think a lot of people are asking, "How do I find someone who's not intimidated by where I am in my life?"
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean by that? Be specific.
- MHMatthew Hussey
That I earn more, potentially.
- CWChris Williamson
As a woman?
- MHMatthew Hussey
As a woman. That I have a high-status job. Not everyone, but there's a decent amount of that, of people worrying that they're either gonna intimidate someone, or they're proactively looking for someone that is playing at their level.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's hard sometimes to say whether that's because they want, they genuinely want someone who's playing at their level, or because they're just worried that if they find someone who's not playing at their level, that person's gonna have an issue with it. You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. What's the... Uh, are women struggling to be attracted to guys that don't have that level of education, don't have that level of employment that they do? Are they, are they struggling to date down, so to speak?
- MHMatthew Hussey
From an attraction point of view?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I mean, look. There has to be some. I know that I've spoken to very successful groups of businesswomen-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
... who are really playing at a high level.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And sometimes in those circles, which, by the way, I don't think a tip-... You know, like, the ultra, ultra-high achieving, like, Taipei, you're in that, like, s-, you know, made millions of do-... Like, that's a unique group of people.
- CWChris Williamson
It's an outlier.
- MHMatthew Hussey
But I have experience being in those circles where one of the thir- first things I get asked is, "Well, how do I find someone who is also, you know, playing at this level?" And I, I always feel like saying at that point, "Isn't surely the reason to achieve all of this is so that you can choose anyone you want?" Not so that you can kind of go, "Now that I'm in this top .5%, I need to find someone in that top 5% in a socioeconomic sphere." I, I always think that's a... To me, the reason to make money, the reason to build something or to just have a job that takes care of you and your family potentially is so that you never need that from another person, and then you're free. Then you can really go, "Who is it I actually want? Who do I admire? Who shows up powerfully in my life?" And I think that, you know, sometimes it, I've seen people too narrowly define what they see as powerful.
- 4:42 – 11:24
How the Dating Market has Evolved
- MHMatthew Hussey
- CWChris Williamson
Yup, an attraction. Well, you know, fundamentally, there are, uh, certain elements of attraction for men and for women. Women, it tends to be status and resources. For men, it tends to be youth and, and fertility and looks. These things aren't completely unmalleable. You can change these things. You can nudge your preferences. Um, but yeah. I can see how increasing female achievement would mean that they do have that reduced pool of men. So if those are the things with regards to what women want, what else has changed? What have been the biggest changes from when you've been interacting with your clients, the dating landscape generally, that have happened from when you started until now?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Look, when I started f- k- you know, 15 years ago, the apps weren't a thing. Dating sites were, but it was still... There was a kind of almost a you didn't want people to know you were on a dating site. You might have been on one, but you didn't talk about it. That's gone. Like, no one's wor- e- people hate dating apps a lot of the time. They're burned out on them. They, they don't wanna necessarily be there, but there's not the shame that goes with, like, "I'm on Hinge. I'm on Tinder. I'm on..." It's just, it's like this thing I have to do, and I sort of resent having to do it. That's h- that's a lot of people's relationship with it. So that's changed. The relationship with it is not, "I'm hiding it." It's just, "Ugh, I don't wanna have to do it."What I think is newer, 'cause I, you know, I was, I've thought about this. I've thought, "Is there anything new to add to the conversation of what's changed in dating?" But the looks aspect might have changed. Never have we been so capable of having the tools to change how we look online, on our Instagram, on our profiles. That is like, we, there were some people that maybe years ago were really quite adept at making themselves look their best.
- CWChris Williamson
In person.
- MHMatthew Hussey
In, when they were posting pictures, even. Like, oh, well, both in person and, and in their dating profiles. But I remember match.com back years ago, I don't know if they still say it, but they used to say, you know, I think they had like 18 slots for uploading photos. And their whole thing was the more photos you upload, the more trust you're building and people will really essentially get a good look at you and it's gonna result in more matches. And the less you have, the more it's like people are like, "Wait, how do they look and do they..." I don't know that that holds true anymore because these days someone could have an entire Instagram profile, man or woman, and you just don't know what they look like until you meet them in person. We have so many tools now to change how we look, and that has different implications. For one, it sort of homogenized looks. So if everyone is trying to look, if like we've decided that this is what the fashionable look is right now, then everyone sort of starts molding, or not everyone, but a lot of people start molding themselves to look like that. So there's a kind of, in the same way that globalization meant that every town you showed up to had a, a Starbucks and a this and a that, and every town started looking the same, I feel like that's happened with people online, where there's like a globalization of looks. It also means that we have this standard, not just, we, we have more insecurity about ourselves and our looks because we're looking at everyone else going, "I don't look like that," but it's also created this crazy standard when it comes to what we're looking for and who we're looking for. Because we are now looking, we're like chasing this image that, that isn't even that person. And I, I, I find it's true of everything in life now. It's like true of Santorini. You, like Santorini can't compete with Instagram Santorini. (laughs) I saw pictures yesterday on Instagram of New England in the fall. Now, Audrey and I have, like we're excited to go to New England in the fall. I've been here a long time. Audrey's newer to the States, and I wanna like show her the East Coast in the fall time, and I was about to show her these photos of New England in the fall, and then I was like, "Something doesn't look right about these photos." There were these pinks that were insane. I was like, "They, they can't, that..." And then I started looking at the comments and there were just so many people going, "I live in New England and it is beautiful in the fall, but it looks nothing like this."
- CWChris Williamson
None of these pinks. I don't know where they've come from.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, and so when you look at that you go, "Oh, that's a real shame." Because if you're going to New England and now you're kind of looking for this version of New England that doesn't exist and you're, so you're sort of deflated or disappointed even though New England is stunning in the fall, that's a, that's a, that's a bad situation to be in. So I feel like there's a kind of, a correction we have to do with ourselves these days, especially if we live a lot online for reality versus what we're seeing. Otherwise, we're gonna go aro- we're not just gonna go around insecure that we don't live up to something. We're gonna go around super entitled that someone else doesn't live up to this impossible thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Obviously, do you think that online dating profiles, Instagram has skewed expectations of what people think that they should get in a relationship?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, I think so. I think so.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you seeing this with your clients?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I don't know. I, I don't know if I have a lot of anecdotal evidence for that explicitly, but I just think the more... It can't not be true on some level. The, the more we all see, uh, 'cause it's true on things outside of romance. The more we see people driving crazy cars and they look like they're on vacation all the time and we don't know w- when they work 'cause they always seem to be by a pool somewhere sipping a cocktail, the more you think there must be something wrong with your life that y- you know, I, why aren't I getting that much vacation or why am I not enjoying that life? What's, and I think there must be... So we feel entitled to that life where we're not working really hard to get there and whatever 'cause no one's showing that. I, I, there has to be a romantic equivalent to that.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. What do you think that men misunderstand about what women want right now?
- 11:24 – 24:49
What Men Misunderstand About Women
- CWChris Williamson
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm. If men... I suppose the more men are chasing these ideas of flashiness or, you know, they see Instagram accounts that are like always some guy posing by a car or a plane or a, some amazing lifestyle whatever, I, I kind of think that more people just become indoctrinated that, uh, with that idea that this must, these are symbols of what's attractive. And it's true for a group of people, that there are, there are some people that that's true for, so that validates it.And especially when you're seeing those guys with women that are beautiful, and that might be considered, like, the most desirable people. Then you're thinking, "Oh, that must be what's attractive." But I think that becomes this, becomes this sort of rabbit hole you can go down, where you spend a life impressing, or trying to impress, living to impress someone that is gonna, like, ultimately make you incredibly unhappy. And I think that's prob- that is the disconnect, I think, that happens for a lot of guys. It's a bit like the vulnerability conversation, that when a guy... I've been vulnerable in my life before, with the wrong people, and it backfired. I've been vulnerable where I've stressed in a relationship, an insecurity, and I'm thinking, "This is, you know, this is me being real. This is me being raw. This is me saying something that's upset me, or made me jealous, or made me insecure." And I've gone into that thinking this is good. "This is the kind of relationship that I'm told we should be having, a vulnerable one, an honest one." And I've had it really backfire in my life, where it was quite clear that the person saw me as less attractive after having said the thing than they did before. And at the time, I wasn't in my stage of evolution as a m- man today. At the time, it just made me go, "Never again. I am never being that honest again. That was too much." She didn't want that level of honesty. She wanted a cute version of vulnerability, an endearing version, a kind of crying in- in the m- movie, you know, version of vulnerability, but not like, "I'm actually insecure about something." But I learned the wrong lesson that day, because it was wrong for that person. It wasn't, they weren't ready for that. They weren't, they- they were still in a- a mindset of not looking for kind of a complete person. And that was, that was them, and I wasn't, I- I wasn't strong enough in my own frame at the time to be like, "Oh, that means this person is not right for me." Instead, I went, "Oh my God, I'm hideous."
- CWChris Williamson
Deficient.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. "And I'll never, I'll never say that stuff again." But that, these days, when I look at my relationship now, one of the things I'm most grateful for is that I really can be me. I truly, the things that I thought, "No, that's too shameful. No, that's too..." That's like, you know, that is definitely on the opposite end of masculine, strong guy. Like, those things are celebrated as much as the rest of me. And that has been like a, that has been a life-changing thing for me. So, I think that guys don't just get it wrong from what's portrayed. They get it wrong from experiences they've had-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
... with people that they should never have ended up with, or with someone that wasn't ready in their life. Someone-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, is- is showing vulnerability unattractive? Is men showing vulnerability to women unattractive? How- how do men, how do women perceive this balance of confidence and vulnerability?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, I think it's attractive to the right women. I truly believe that. I think that, look, no one wants... There's a distinction to be made. Vun- there's the vulnerability of, "I have something that I struggle with, and I'm being open with you about that." That's vulnerability. Telling someone 10 times a day, like, "But do you think this, and do you think that?" And I, that's not, that ceases to be vulnerability. That's just what I think of as, like, dumping.
- CWChris Williamson
Neediness.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, it's just, it's- it's a vulnera-, it's a kind of mutation, 'cause vulnerability is like a form of openness. "I'm letting you in. I'm letting you into my mind. I'm letting you into the things that I struggle with. I'm letting you into the battles that I fight." But when we're kind of dumping on someone, we're making them responsible for solving it for us, and that ceases to be vulnerability. That's kind of an abdication of responsibility. I actually think it's an incredibly attractive thing for anyone in a relationship, man or woman, to be like, "I struggle with this, and it's something that I'm working on." Because then you're- you're taking ownership of it. It may be from something you didn't create. It might be from a childhood wound. It might be from trauma you suffered growing up. It might be from any of those things. It might not be your fault that you have that thought pattern or that wiring, but there's a different, you can say, "Something's not my fault," and still say, "I'm gonna own it, and I'm gonna work on dealing with this, because it's mine to deal with." When you do that in a relationship, I think that's a very powerful thing. But I think people confuse the two. It's, it can't be, "Accept me at any cost." It can't be, "I have, I can make your life miserable with all of the things that I'm struggling with all the time. And if you don't tolerate that, the problem is you."
- CWChris Williamson
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- MHMatthew Hussey
More. 100% more. I- I, there's a real yearning for men to talk more, to be more open, to be more vulnerable, to actually communicate more.
- CWChris Williamson
And what about to the men who say, "I've heard stories like your one-"
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... where a woman says that they love the idea of me opening up, and the second that they do, they see me as the beta male underling-"
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
"... that I've always feared that they might do. It maybe confirms my concerns that I have about being insufficient. Therefore, I'm going to lock this away."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. Or, "I say these things and they think I'm awful." You know, uh, "There's things that I'm gonna say to you that I don't normally say, because I think they, they're a part of my past that I don't like, and you're gonna now think I'm villainous." You know, there's that too. And I, there, there's, that's 100% gonna happen with some people. 100%. There are gonna be people you come up against who, you tell them something from your past and they go, "You're awful." Who, who doesn't have something that they look back on and go, "I really was a shit to someone. I really was mean to someone. I really, I regret that deeply. I should never have done this. I should never have done that." But what we want is to be able to meet someone in life who can make space for those parts of us. And to the guys that say there are women who say they want vulnerability, and then as soon as I actually cry, not cute cry, they're out, I- I don't think that's someone who is capable of having a real relationship. I don't think that's, I think that's a woman who says that she wants a real relationship, but is, hasn't grown enough to truly understand men. And truly understanding men might be understanding that there are some things you will or won't like, and also that there are parts of him that are very much not different from you at all. And, and if you're looking for someone who's bulletproof, and strong all the time, then there's some growing up to do.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, there will be men out there that are like that, you know?
- MHMatthew Hussey
That are bulletproof?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, there are men out there, I have a number of friends, uh, that range from totally emotional to completely unemotional. And the ones, some of them that are completely unemotional, I believe that that's actually how they are, that there is a, a, a degree of, um, ease with their emotions. They just don't seem to hold onto things. Things don't seem to affect them in, in as deep of a way as, as some of my other friends.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So I suppose that there is a market for each different type of person. If you're a guy who is super emotional, if you are one who has vulnerabilities, issues from your past-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you need to work on finding a partner who is going to be able to accept that.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, that, yeah, I mean, that's, in, that's kind of the whole, the whole game of dating and relationships, is what kind of person do you actually want? The, the, whatever society is telling you is attractive, or whatever your friends are telling you is attractive, you can, you can find someone who makes you incredibly happy, and your friends are like, "Really?"
- CWChris Williamson
"I don't get it."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Uh, you know, like, uh, uh, "Really?" Like, and that, if, unless you have a strong sense of self and of what you're looking for, that could throw you off. That could make you go, "Oh, yeah, you're right, I guess this person isn't great." But five minutes ago, you thought they were awesome, because they were right for you. And okay, fine, if there's someone that's, if there's a guy that's kind of like, that, that won't show emotion and doesn't need to indulge emotions and whatever, that's okay. But if you're a woman dating that guy, you better be damn sure that you don't want the kind of relationship that has a lot of emotional intimacy. You, that, that's really what it comes down to. When you talk about a guy like that, I go, "That's a guy I'm, I'd never be close friends with," because I'm not like that. I'm like a, you know, I'm a crier, I'm someone who, uh, I cry at everything.
- CWChris Williamson
Weeper.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, I am.
- 24:49 – 27:19
Most Common Traits of Attractiveness
- CWChris Williamson
find attractive or optimize for on the front end that don't have predictive power at making a relationship work long term, in your opinion?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm. Mm, I won't say it has no predictive power, but chemistry is wildly overrated.
- CWChris Williamson
What's chemistry?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, that's the point. (laughs) It's not easy to put your finger on, but f- uh, people will describe it as, "It's, uh, you know, this feeling I get when I'm with them, this- this-"
- CWChris Williamson
Spark.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"... attraction, this spark, this connection, this..." Sometimes when people are talking about chemistry, they're talking about animal attraction. Other times when people talk about chemistry, they're talking about this just deep sense of feeling really connected to someone. But the point is those things that are really hard to describe, they can be describing a lot of different things. And- and chemistry may be necessary. It might be a box you need to tick. In other words, I have a sexual attraction to this person. There's a box you need to tick if you want real- a- a l- long-term romantic relationship. But it's not a good indicator of whether it's going anywhere, whether someone has the same intentions as you, whether someone has the same vision as you, whether they'd make a great partner, and all of those things are the big things. The attraction, or let's say attention, 'cause when you have chemistry, you get someone's attention. Attention is not intention, and that is a big mistake that people make. "We have the most amazing time together. We're so connected. You d- When we're together, sparks are flying." That says nothing about that person's intention with you. What are they actually looking for? What's their goal here? And intention, even when there's aligned intentions, intention doesn't equal investment. You can have someone who says all the right things, "And I really wanna be with you," and- but they can't back it up. When it comes to actually being consistent, when it comes to, uh, progressing things with you, when it comes to making any kind of sacrifice, when it comes to exclusivity, they can't deliver. And though we make so many mistakes in early dating by th- thinking that we have all three of those things, when actually all we have is someone's attention, and usually for sporadic moments.
- 27:19 – 41:23
Complaints that Matthew Receives From Female Clients
- MHMatthew Hussey
- CWChris Williamson
What are the most common complaints that you're hearing from the women that you coach about the men that they're dating? What are the issues that they're coming up against most frequently?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm, I suppose they're not ready. They don't wanna commit. "I want something meaningful. I want something that's actually gonna go somewhere, and this person is just kind of stringing me along," or they can't seem to... They, a lot of people wouldn't frame it like, "This person's stringing me along," because that kind of, that's a hard thing to admit. But they may say, "This person keeps saying they're not ready, and they're just not quite there yet, and they're not sure." And so I think the indecisiveness of men and the inability to actually commit is, that's gotta be the top one, I would say.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that would run counter a little bit to a lot of what you hear about on the internet, which would be that most men are struggling to find a date, that they can't get attention from women, that women-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... are actually looking for attention from the top man as much as possible. And in my experience, this, you know, I've stood on the front door of a thousand events and met a million people across my entire life. You know, 18 to 21-year-old guys and girls aren't exactly known for their maturity, especially not in the UK.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Especially not when they're drunk.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And yet, in my experience, uh, m- most of the girls, even at that age, were looking for, maybe it wasn't a particularly mu- mature form of commitment, but they were looking for commitment. They're looking for a guy that they could hold hands with and g- go away to a- a little summer vacation with and do Christmas markets, uh, in December. It seems to me that a lot of the- a lot of the concerns that guys have around what women want and the issues that they're facing don't seem to match up massively.
- MHMatthew Hussey
What are the concerns that guys have?
- CWChris Williamson
I think that the big ones are that they're not going to be found attractive-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that they're going to be seen as creepy if they approach them, that if they try to do online dating, that they're not going to be responded to, if they try to approach them in the real world, that they're going to be seen as some Me Too predator-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that she is going to trade up because there is, uh, an endless hierarchy of guys that could fly her out to Dubai. There's some sheik on the other side of Instagram that's going to DM her and put her on a five-star flight to-
- MHMatthew Hussey
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to take her out to Dubai, and, uh, th- you know, this is- this is the world that we live in now.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That girls have more opportunities than ever before because it's been afforded by social media-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... which means that the top few guys are going to eat, and everybody else is going to starve.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I sympathize, I- with guys on all of those things. I- I feel- I really, it touches me when you say it because I- I think that there is...It's a really hard thing for anyone to feel invisible, and, and what's more, to feel like even if I'm briefly visible, I will become invisible again the moment this person comes across someone with more. And when I hear that, I come to two immediate conclusions. One is, choose well. Choose someone, as a man, who truly is, you know, one of the phrases Audrey used all the time when we were, uh, dating and getting to know each other, she kept saying as a philosophy for her life, "I just believe in chasing the right things." That you will always be kind of, not punished, but life will always, like, give you its comeuppance if you chase the wrong things, and you'll always have to end up at some point circling back to the right thing. It's just when you just decide to do it. And I've come to look at that as, like, one of my key mantras for life. I look at, all the time, "Am I chasing the right thing or the wrong thing here?" And I think that a lot of guys are struggling because they're chasing the wrong thing. Um, they themselves, you know, it's, there is an entitlement among a lot of guys that, "I, I should have this," and it, we, the funny thing about dating is that we end up accusing each other of exactly the thing that we're doing, and we really hate the other side for doing it. But it is exactly what we're doing. It's one community saying, "It's disgraceful how shallow they are. I have to be a certain height for them to even pay attention to me," and meanwhile they're going, "Why don't I have the top 1% of women?" You're going, "P- what are you talking about? You s- literally, you just did exactly the same thing. You just said there was a top 1% and you're not interested in the rest." (laughs) That, there is a hypocri- on both sides, there is a hypocrisy there that I really struggle with, and I think the more we can get to a point where we go, "What are the counter-cultural compromises that I am willing to make in order to actually live a happy life?" Not a life that everyone else says is so impressive, not a life where I finally go, "Look, I made it. I'm dating the cheerleader," a life that's actually making you happy because you've, you've selected for the right things. What counter-cultural compromises will you have to make for that? We talked earlier about, 'cause I know for me, I'm all about looking at that on both sides. We talked earlier about women who might say, "Well, I wanna date someone who's at my level," and I wanna go, "Well, let's redefine what you class as your level. Do you mean your level for kindness? Your level for generosity? Your level for empathy? Your level for being loyal? Or do you mean your level of income? Because the things I said first will make you far happier. This thing doesn't really matter, but you've told yourself it matters. Now could you make a compromise that goes against the grain?" 'Cause that, that is what, if, if we go online and we look at all of these communities, it's everyone arguing, to me, there's, from the outside, because I don't, I'm not deep in these things. But I know, I hear, it's like I hear secondhand all the time, so you can always correct me if I'm getting it wrong on what people are saying out there. But when I look at it, I feel like so much debate is being had at the macro level of, "Here's how men are, here's how women are, and here are all the things we can't stand about the cultural norm right now." And when I look at that, I'm like, this feels to me like s- in, if it was the business equivalent, it's like, I wanna start a sandwich shop and I spend all my time watching the news and the economy and the macro statistics and saying, "This is why I shouldn't start a sandwich shop. This is why you can't start a sandwich shop today. Look at it. I'm, I'm watching the news all day and it's terrible. Well, uh, you know, the banking system's gonna collapse soon. You know that, right? No point starting a sandwich shop now." Or constantly arguing about politics and who's in government. "Oh, it's the Democrat. Oh, it's not business-friendly. Oh, you, you don't wanna be in California. It's not business-friendly, right? I'm not gonna start a business in California." Like, there's, there's that mindset, and I have always, one of the reasons that I've always loved studying things from a place of curiosity, and that's what you do. You, you're faci- you're a curious person who's fascinated by how things work and why things are happening. So I get, the c- that part I understand. But when people are complaining constantly about the macro of it all and that becomes their excuse, I always just think, "Do you realize that your life changes by what you do in the micro?" If you're a woman and you're saying, "Men are always intimidated by me," I say, "In the macro, you're 100% right. That there is an awful lot of men, if you're a high earner, if you're high status, if you've done a lot in your life, oof, there's gonna be a lot of men who are intimidated by you. That's 100% true."So, I would never wanna invalidate that, but on the micro, if you're telling me that men are always intimidated by you, something's going wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, who's the common denominator between all of these men?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Right. Now, you could say men a- the, the gender is the common denominator, is men. Men have a problem with this. None of my female friends have a problem with this. Men have a problem with this. But, but I look at that and I go, there is a way to a- either you're going for a certain kind of guy all the time, or you're going in with that as your kind of power, and that as your value, and that's the thing you talk about all the time. No one wants to go out with a rich person who talks about how much money they have. No one. No one wants to go out with a celebrity who talks about how famous they are. (laughs) You, you want to go out with someone who has a conversation with you, and gets to know you, and is interested in you, and is impressed by you. Right? That's one of the most attractive things in the world is you go on a ... Like, people should go on a date asking themselves, "How could I be impressed by this person?" And if you do that ... And it, there was a, a writer friend of mine who used to wi- I think he wrote for The Hollywood Reporter or someone, but he used to say when he would interview celebrities, the goal for himself so that he could write a good piece was always to go ... 'Cause he didn't care. He'd been doing it so long. It was, for him, it was like just another person coming through the door with a movie. It, long past the point of having any novelty for him. But he would say, "Could I, by the end of this interview, could I get to a place of feeling grateful for having been here?" And he knew that the key to accessing that gratitude was find, l- feeling like by the end of the time with that person, they had taught him something. They had given him some kind of life perspective or told him their story in a way that made him feel like, "Wow, I'm, I'm actually really grateful I got to sit with this person." He said, "If I could achieve that gratitude, I knew that the article I would write would convey that. I knew it would be a good piece." I think that we could approach dating that way. But so many people go on a date and it's like, "Here's what's impressive about me. Here's why y- here's, here's why you should feel a little intimidated by me." Instead of going, "How can I, how can I show I'm impressed by you?" Or, "How can I show that there's something about you that just, wow, that's really interesting?" Or, that, "I have a unique understanding of you by the end of the date." That's super attractive. It makes someone feel seen. That, y- uh, taking, going back to our example, if you're someone who ... Let's say it's real. You have a job that intimidates people. You also have immense leverage in being able to reverse that by the way that you are on a date with someone. And so that, to me, is always ... For me, on the front lines of dating where I'm constantly helping people to actually go out there and find love, I always wanna say to them, "I- f- forget the news. Look at what's, what other things you could do to transform your dating life." And it's, it's wild how much you can do to transform your dating life, and it doesn't matter what's going on out there. There's a, it's a phrase that a doctor friend of mine used when it came to diseases in hospitals. He says, "Statistics don't matter to the individual." If y- if you've, if you get a one in a thousand disease, it doesn't matter to you that it's one in a thousand. You're, you have the disease. But, I actually, from a dating perspective, like to put a positive spin on that. That regardless of how grim things seem out there, the statistic doesn't matter to the individual. If you, as an individual, learn how to be more proactive in your love life, you learn how to be a beautiful presence on a date, you learn how to attract someone, those statistics are not gonna be the primary thing affecting your love life.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 41:23 – 52:32
Challenges of the Modern Dating Market
- CWChris Williamson
that at the moment, the same news, the same macro weather report is being absorbed by a lot of other people that are in the dating market. So this is a mental model I learned from David Goggins, and he was saying, "It's so easy to be great nowadays because most people are weak." And he, Dana White said something similar, which was, he advises his sons, "If you are even remotely a savage, you will run these people over, because the bar is set so low."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, think about the fact that there are, uh, some challenging times and some turbulence in the dating market, which causes a lot of people to have a sense of, um ... They abandon any personal agency that they have. "I can't affect this. I'm at the mercy of the weather and it's going to blow me around." Okay. Reverse that and think, "The bar is set so low because almost everybody else believes this, so if I put a tiny nanogram of effort into what I do-"... I will separate myself out from the pack.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the same thing with guys that are struggling with attraction. I'm like, if you go to the gym three times a week for a year, you are probably in the top percentile of all men on the planet with regards to fitness. 180 minutes a week for a year.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, the bar is set so low for this stuff and it is easy for you to separate yourself out from the pack if that's the case.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So you can use the concerns, you can use that as a litmus test to think, "Well, okay, those are the things to avoid doing. I know that if I do something that's even marginally different to that, if I do show up differently on a date, if I do take care of my appearance, if I do try and be kind and compassionate," because apparently women say that that's something that they're, that they're struggling for at the moment, "Let's stress test this for myself." And another thing is that because people have retreated into online dating so much and so few people are going out and actually having interactions in the real world, where's any evidence to stress test any of the ideas that you've learned from the stuff that you've heard on the internet?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, the most egregious stories, the ones that are terrifying and make you worried about the dating market, quite rightly are the ones that get 100,000 up votes on Reddit because they're insane. They're egregious and incredible and terrifying. Okay, well, has that ever happened in your life? Do you ever know anyone that it's happened to apart from that person that's on Reddit? That person doesn't count. Like anyone that you know personally, and there will be some people, that story's come from somewhere, some people will know that guy, but not many people. I know lots and lots and lots of people, very few of them have encountered any of the nightmare scenarios that are spoken about-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but people use the stories that they hear on the internet as representative for what th- they can expect in the real world of dating.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, and that's very dangerous. I, you know, when, when you talk about that kind of, (sighs) that whole group of guys that feel invisible, feel overlooked, I, I always think, "What, what game is someone playing?" Like, what's the, what's the outcome? If the outcome is, "I wanna sleep with as many people as possible and I wanna be the life and soul of the party, I wanna be the person that has the most animal attraction," y- then you're gonna struggle 'cause not everyone gets to have that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- MHMatthew Hussey
But if your goal is, "I actually wanna meet someone who's awesome, I wanna meet someone I can have an amazing life with, I wanna meet someone I can build with," it doesn't actually matter how many people find you attractive. It matters that you find someone who thinks you're awesome. Now, if you come from a place where you're so busy focused on how shallow some women are or how much some women will only date up or will only date across or what, if you're focused on that, that is gonna dictate your whole life 'cause you're gonna be miserable, you're gonna be resentful, you're gonna be bitter. If instead you go, "You know what? There are people for whom someone showing, I," someone showing up with confidence, with kindness, with a boldness because you don't have to be... Being bold doesn't mean having money. It doesn't mean being successful outwardly. Being bold can just be, "I'm bold in life." You're someone who has a level of courage, you're, you're someone who has a really beautiful level of loyalty. I know there are guys who are gonna listen to everything I'm saying right now and they're gonna roll their eyes 'cause they're gonna be like, "Try dating. Try actually going out there and dating if you're ma-" There will be those people, but, but I actually believe that. I really believe that. I really believe that, you know, there are people in my company that if they left tomorrow might be able to go and get paid more somewhere. I can't stop that. I can't stop a bigger, more attractive company coming along and going, "We're gonna pay you double and give you more this and more that." I can't sto-, I can't stop it and I can't compete with it. I cannot. I can't be the sexiest company in the world, but I just in my bones believe that the people that I'm supposed to work with long term are the people that see how much I love them, how loyal I am to them, how much I actually care about them, that I mean it when I say something, that when I say I'm serious about a long term relationship with them, I mean it. I know they could go to another company tomorrow and that person promises them the world and then six months later they're kicked out because tha- that's how, that company is like, "Yeah, we'll give you the world, but we're also gonna get rid of you if, if you don't live up to every single one of these..." I know that. So I can't play the game of being the sexiest company in the world, but I can play the game of attracting people with the values that, that I have that they will value. And the people that I want working for me long ti- term are the people that whose values actually match with mine. Dating is no different. You, you may not be Apple (laughs) in the dating world. I'm not Apple in the business world. But your values, they, they've really, with the right people, they will be the thing that makes someone go, "Yeah, of course I could be with a guy with more money."... of course I could be with a guy who's, who's taller. Of course I could be w- what, I'd be insane to give that up for what I get with you. And there will be some guys who listen to that and go, "Oh, so I'm the consolation," 'cause they'd rather be with this tall, that bla- that's insecurity talking 'cause no one has everything, no one. And that's you coming from the frame of reference that that guy's height matters more than the values you have. That's you coming from the frame of reference that that guy's money matters more than the values you have. You've bought into that, and that's why it bothers you. That's why you feel like you're the consolation prize is 'cause you believe it. So you have to stop believing that, and I'm not talk- this isn't, like, I- w- want people to understand this. I'm not talking about some soft, like, believe in yourself mindset. I'm really saying that this, to me, is the real stuff. This is, this, to me, is, like, you're tall inside. Li- you have a tall personality. You have tall values. When someone feels that from you and they feel that that energy is real, it's crazy how much for so many people what they thought they cared about yesterday starts to actually disintegrate. And so what if you started going through life, instead of being the person that confirms everyone's suspicions that those things matter more, what if you were the person that made them disintegrate because meeting you was like this, it, like, changed someone's paradigm on what's actually important? And that is a thing that anyone can do, anyone, but you have to actually live by those values that I'm talking about, and you might have to make peace with playing a longer game because it can take time for people to realize how important those things are. Y- y- someone tall, hot, and handsome or whatever doesn't sneak up on you. (laughs) They walk through the door and a lot of people go, "Okay, that seem, this seems like a, you know, someone I'd wanna talk to." But some of the things I'm talking about, they, they sneak up on you, but when they land, it can change someone's world. I, I have, in my own life, started to, in the last few years, really just let go of, you know, whatever, the, the kind of comparisons that I might have made in the past or the th- uh, for myself, where I thought I didn't live up to that or I wasn't this, I wasn't... I'm an introvert. I'm not life and soul of the party. I'm life and soul when I'm standing on stage 'cause I'm good at public speaking, but put me in a party, I'm no longer life and soul. I'm never, I never have been, I'm never going to be. It's not who I am. There was a time when that bothered me. I was like, "I should probably learn some more social skills that make me the life and soul of the party. I wanna be that guy who can, like..." At a certain point in my life, I said, "I don't care. I just don't care." And, and for, the kind of person that wants me to be that, for me to be in their lives, that's not my per- that really isn't my per- that's not my friend, it's not my male friend. And I started to learn that I'm appreciated for other things, things that I maybe never registered were important or things that I never thought of were important about me. I started to realize, oh, tho- that's it, those are the things. Let me focus on that because spending all this time focusing on, you know, is a better looking guy gonna walk in the room, is someone with more gonna walk in the room, is someone... You can play that game forever and there always will be, by the way. There'll always be a Chris Williamson who shows up with bigger biceps. You know, it's like, it, it's just the way it is. But when your, when your worth is not rooted in that, it gen- it's the most liberating thing in the world.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how
- 52:32 – 1:01:38
Why is there a Gap in Sexlessness Between Men & Women?
- CWChris Williamson
much of this is related to age. I kind of get the sense that a lot of the rules that the internet works off get aged out and that people mature out of them and they learn a lot of lessons. So, I need to make a little bit of, of an admission because for the last 18 months or so, I have been parroting some data from GSS that said between 2008 and 2018, the number of men between 18 and 30 that haven't had sex in the last year tripled from 8% to 28%, and this is true, this was true. GSS data has continued to come out.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Last week, I found the 2021 data. From 2018, 28% of men hadn't had sex in the last year. In 2022, uh, 2021, that had dropped down to 17%-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of men. The number of women that hadn't had sex in the last year, aged 18 to 30, was 28% in 2021. Now, this changes the story, as far as I can see, about what's going on because the presumption is if young men aren't having sex, this is because they're not being chosen.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Men tend to be the sexual protagonists, women tend to be the sexual gatekeepers, therefore if men aren't having sex, it's because they want it but they can't get it. If women aren't having sex, presumably it's because they can get it, but maybe they don't want it. So what's going on there? Why do you think it could be the case that both young men and young women are struggling to have sex, but particularly the young women? 28% of 18 to 30-year-old women didn't have sex during 2021.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm. Do you have a theory? I'm just curious.
- CWChris Williamson
My current working theory for a lot of this stuff is that there's generalized r- uh, uh, generalized risk aversion disorder, GRAD.... uh, which is something I've completely made up. Uh, but-
- MHMatthew Hussey
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that a world where Netflix and Amazon Prime, Uber Eats, DoorDash, social media, video games, porn for men specifically, has turned down the amount of risk and discomfort that most people face in their everyday lives. That means that stepping out of the house to maybe go to a party, well, you've got the competition of the new season of Succession on HBO to compete with.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, it's pretty high bar.
- MHMatthew Hussey
That's quite a thing to compete with.
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking good season.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I don't wanna compete-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MHMatthew Hussey
... with Succession.
- CWChris Williamson
No, me neither. So okay, well, first off, I'm probably gonna leave the house less.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
Secondly, if I do go to a party, I'm gonna be on my phone more, which makes me less approachable. Thirdly, if I am there, I don't have the social skills to be interpersonally interesting and leave the cues, the very subtle cues that you need to in order to be able to get people to come and speak to you. Fourthly, while you're there, if you do begin to flirt, it's an incredibly delicate dance that you've got to do. It's push and pull-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's tease, it's, it's leaving, uh, sort of wistful con- uh, intrigue, and playing, and all that stuff. It's a very delicate thing to do-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that requires ... It's very skillful, requires an awful lot of skill to do. None of these things are being developed at the moment. And the reason that I could see that women particularly, especially in 2021, to put my evolutionary psychologist hat on, I would say, uh, increased pathology, uh, uh, uh, pathogen aversion. So women's disgust threshold is lower than men's because they are more fra- fragile, uh, from a physicality standpoint, um, which means that they tend to be more easily disgusted, especially by-
- MHMatthew Hussey
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the presence of disease. And there is a-
- MHMatthew Hussey
I didn't know that. Is that real?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah-
- MHMatthew Hussey
That's a thing?
- 1:01:38 – 1:14:37
What Women say They Experience in Online Dating
- CWChris Williamson
between 40 and 60% of relationships now begin online. What are you hearing from women about their experiences with online dating and messaging and guys' demeanor on what they're getting right and wrong?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, I think that you could, you, you could caricature things a little and say that there's, uh, an enormous number of guys who go to dating apps for sex, and that it's less likely that en masse, and it depends on age group obviously, um, but at an age where people tend to start looking for relationships and women start to really seriously think about, "Well, I, I do actually really want a relationship." And I'm not saying men don't get to the same point, but I believe that there's more guys who are on dating apps just going, "I'm just here because I wanna hook up." And that, that I think results in a lot of just people are just completely misaligned when they're talking in those places. There's a lot guy- there's a lot of bad behavior from guys who are hiding behind a screen. We know that. And that's because they're able to do things that wouldn't, they would never dare do out there in the world.
- CWChris Williamson
How is that affecting women? How is that affecting their behavior, their view of men and relationships?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Uh, I think it skews, I think it skews their perception of what guys are actually like because they're getting, they're getting that from a, a proport- a decent proportion of guys, and it's making them think, "Well, there are no, there are no decent guys. Like, this is, this is just horrendous." But there are decent guys and they may be, they may... Those guys unfortunately may f- some of them at least will feel completely overlooked in those places, but there's an awful lot of women I think that come away with a really tarnished view of what men are like. And I also think like some, for some guys, I mean, maybe for all, but what they do in that environment when they feel like no one is, there's no repercussions, I feel like that's indicative of how they actually feel about women or how they, y- you know, what, that's indicative of their deeper relationship with women because all, or an ignorance, it could just be an ignorance too That they're not educated. They've never been taught, "This is, this is what it's like to be on the receiving end of this. Like, this is what that experience actually is." I don't think most men actually have any bearing on that when they're doing it, and it's not all men, but the men that do it, I think they're, they're not connected to the effects of that.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so step into the guys who are struggling with dating online.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What should they be doing if they want to be effective at convincing a girl that they are in this for the right reasons, that they are a guy of value and virtue? Wh- what should they be doing when they're texting, making an attractive dating profile, communicating backward and forward?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I mean, for me, I think the ultimate thing is that there's a sense of decisiveness when it comes to progression, you know, instead of being the guy that texts back and forth with someone for two weeks and is playing chicken with like who's gonna ask who to do something and actually meet in real life. Be the person who actually advances it. I'm not saying in ways that suddenly make us f- seem desperate, but you know, you be the person that suggests getting on the phone or meeting up for a quick coffee. Like, that, that's a pretty, that shows intent. It shows you're taking-
- CWChris Williamson
What's a good, what's a good first date idea? Some of the favorite ones.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I like anything where you are not sitting kind of facing each other. I don't, I think the-
- CWChris Williamson
Rollercoaster. (laughs)
- MHMatthew Hussey
W- Yeah. I s- I remember saying this at an event and just (laughs) I go, I go, "You know, a good date is like park bench style." Like, anywhere where you can sort of face out into the world and turn to each other when you wanna talk. And I just heard a voice (laughs) in the crowd go, "Sushi." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MHMatthew Hussey
It was like the guy had just like, he conn- he really got it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
He was like, he just really connected with, "That's where I'm, that's what I'm gonna do next."
- CWChris Williamson
Nailed it. Nailed it.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Sushi.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It really cracked me up. I, but that, but you know, anything that I like, if you're gonna go to a restaurant on a date, sit at the bar.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's a much better thing that- going to a table is awkward, sitting across from each other and you're staring at each other the whole time. Go sit at the bar, because then you can ex- you can chat with the bartender. You can turn and say something, but you don't have to position your entire body towards someone. Uh, but it, what it allows to happen is a more natural kind of, you know, if you look at attraction and seduction, it kind of we start facing away from each other. We become aware of each other, like a sort of side eye, "Oh, I'm aware of you," and then eventually, we turn into each other. And I think that a date can almost m- kind of, you've, you've already got the we know each other part, unless you were just approaching someone-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
... out there in the world. But a date where you can start pointed at something, and the more rapport you build and the more comfort you build, you kind of end up turning inwards. That's a pretty good date. So walking is a good date, like walking somewhere with someone. I think as a guy you have to then, you have to also bear in mind that for women, safety is a big thing. So being somewhere where they feel like, where they actually feel safe with you.
- CWChris Williamson
So not walking in a dark alleyway?
- MHMatthew Hussey
No, no dark alleyways.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- MHMatthew Hussey
So zero dark alleyway first date policy.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, fine. Cool.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. Those are, those are... And, and also, not... Don't be afraid to have a short date. You know, to- if you can lower the stakes for someone going into a date...
- 1:14:37 – 1:27:18
Is Matthew Worried About Decreasing Birthrates?
- CWChris Williamson
we're seeing more and more women not having children. Is this something that you're noticing? Uh, are women saying that they don't intend on having families that are in the groups that you work with?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I don't see that, but I have to assume there's a ... That has to be true on some level. If you take a society where it's less ... There's ... I won't say it's not frowned upon at all, because there's a kind of ... No matter how far we've come, there's always gonna be families and societies in which women have to deal with the fact that s- something must be wrong with you if you don't want to have kids. Something must be wrong with you if that's not in your path or that hasn't happened for you. They're always gonna face that from somewhere, but to a far lesser extent than before. And if it's to a far lesser extent than before, then naturally, you're gonna have people who never wanted kids or don't feel like they wanna be ... they ... that's not their path, who are gonna feel more comfortable actually following that. So, I have no doubt that number must have risen, but, you know, a h- the ... A huge proportion of, of my audience are people who would like to find a relationship, and part of what they would l- ... Part of what they want and their dream is to find someone that they love to have kids with. Like, that's the ... I think probably (sighs) I don't have data on this, but I, I would imagine that because women are pushing it later, which can either be ... which is a kind of combination of pursuing careers, societal expectations not being the same or being looser, and, and even just the availability of egg freezing and other methods, that there's a kind of feeling of, "I can delay this." But I know from firsthand experience with not only women, but on my podcast, um, Love Life, we had two fertility doctors who came on and talked about this, that there are a lot of people who just kind of ... There's a ... almost a feeling of, "Oh, I'll-"
- CWChris Williamson
Mañana, mañana, mañana.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"... I'll get to it," and but ... So the ... We all know that in life, the ... when we just decide we're now gonna do something, life doesn't always cooperate, and if we're leaving the time until later, if women especially are leaving the time 'til later where they suddenly decide like, "Okay, now I'm gonna do this," and they haven't met someone yet, and they've gotta go through three more guys that don't pan out to get to the one that does, that, that can ... I've seen, I've seen a lot, a lot, a lot of people end up grieving as a result of that. And by the way, the same is true of a lot of men who assume mistakenly that they're good. "I'm good. I can wait and wait and wait and wait and wait," and then it comes down to it, and their sperm count is too low, or you know, uh, the ... What's the ... I don't know what the medical term is for slow swimmers, but you know, it's that they're, they're not, they're not in a p- place of fertility where it's ... their sperm is viable in the way that they thought it would be. They thought, "Oh, I'm, I'm the done deal part of this equation," or they have more complications because they waited a long time, you know, which is the reality.
- CWChris Williamson
That seems, that seems to reflect the data that I've seen. So a very, very large chunk of women who make it to adulthood, m- break through their fertility window and don't have kids didn't intend to not have kids. It's around about eight out of 10 women who end up being childless that didn't intend-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... to be childless, around about 10% of women are physiologically uncapable, uh, incapable, around about 10% of women intended to not have kids, which leaves four out of five that didn't, and-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... the word grief, which is what you used, is precisely correct, that they grieve for families that they never had.... and the support groups. Jodi Day, uh, who runs one of the biggest in the world is coming on the show in a couple of weeks time, and, uh, it's, it's, it's wild and, uh, one of the concerns that I do have at the moment is this current trend that we're seeing of, um, demonizing motherhood, I would say, in some regard. That, um, you know, the newly acquired liberation that women have had to be able to go and a- achieve a career and get education and employment and status and all of this stuff is, is phenomenal, but to see that as, if you choose to be a mother, that's you settling, you're choosing to be a second-class citizen in some regard. And, you know, for every culture, there is a counterculture movement. For every patriarchal, "Stay in the kitchen, you're not supposed to go and go to university, college, and get a career," there is now a movement... I mean, Chelsea Handler, I don't know whether you've seen the videos that she's been putting out.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
They're trending online. There's a video of, like, uh, what it's like to be a woman in her 50s who doesn't have a family. And for Chelsea Handler, she very well may be the right person. She may have made the complete right life choice, but she talks about how she's gonna get on Raya, find a guy for tonight, smoke weed, masturbate, fall back asleep, fly to Paris, buy a croissant. And I'm like, "Is this really the fucking future that most women aspire to have?"
- MHMatthew Hussey
Masturbation and croissants?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, b- whilst blazed out of your mind.
- MHMatthew Hussey
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
She did a l- a clapback video a couple of days ago where she was pouring an entire bottle of Grey Goose into what looked like a massive NutriBullet flask.
- MHMatthew Hussey
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I was thinking to myself, like, "You're an adult infant." Like, you're a, like, you're, you're the same as the man-child that you would accuse men of being. And my concern is that given the fact that we know the largest metro analysis that's ever been done said eight out of 10 women who end up not having kids didn't intend to not have kids, we're already fighting against slow-life strategy, which is what you mentioned, sort of pushing that fertility window out. We're already making it... i- it's, it's difficult to... you may need to cycle through a number of partners before you can find the right person-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to end up settling down and having kids with. I don't disagree that some dystopian fucking Handmaid's Tale-esque scenario where you're forcing women into the bedroom so that they can pump out babies, that's wrong. But given the fact that eight out of 10 women say that they wanted to have kids and couldn't, it's also really wrong to tell women that they shouldn't be having kids or that having kids is settling or that they become a, a, a domestic prostitute if they choose to do that, and this is a trend that is really, really picking up steam. There's a, a TikTok called Girl With A List. Have you seen this?
- MHMatthew Hussey
No.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a girl who printed out a list of 350 reasons as to why she didn't want to have kids-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and it goes all the way from, "Can't wear cute heels anymore," to, "Baby is literally a parasite inside of me," to all manner of, like... And it's got millions and millions and millions of tags and plays on TikTok.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I'm like, "I don't disagree that this is interesting content that's gonna grab attentions and headlines, but the real-world outcome of this in 15 years' time when the 28-year-old girls that are watching this, uh, are a bit older is concerning."
- MHMatthew Hussey
To me, what I hear in all of this is, uh, it's a kind of version of what men go through in a different way, (sighs) where if we're not careful, we're, we're sold the life that we should have. And if you take, you know, we talked about the percentage of guys that feel overlooked. If you take the opposite end of the spectrum, the guys that have an enormous amount of choice, many of them will be sold culturally on this idea that if you can, you should. You should sleep with as many people as possible. You should live it up. You should, you know, just don't, don't settle any time soon. Delay, delay, delay. And that... You have to be a pretty strong person to go, "I don't think that's the answer. Just 'cause I can, it doesn't mean I should." And I'm not even saying that from a moral or ethical place. I'm, for myself, selfishly, just because I can, it doesn't mean that's gonna make me happy. And women will, uh, you know, they already do find themselves in a place where they're having to really get in touch with what they want and try to shut out the noise. And I, I find myself, I find myself very conflicted on this because there's nothing I, there's nothing I hate more than the idea of a woman who doesn't have the independence herself to be able to walk away, because I've seen that. And I've seen the utter destruction of lives where women don't have enough financial independence or, or the ability to continue with a job or a business, and so that, that man has something he's holding over her the whole time. And it is the mandate for abuse, those relationships. Um, so on one hand, I, the idea of, you know, kind of saying motherhood should be celebrated, I a- I agree with, but I know if I had a daughter, I would want her to never be in a position where she needed a man financially.... where she was always going to be okay on her own, because that's power. Past that point, that's when you have to start getting really honest with yourself and saying, "Do I need more? If I've already got my independence, and now I can choose for love and I can stay for love instead of staying out of fear, it is more necessary." And everyone faces that at some point in their life. I mean, guys face that all the time. It's, uh, it's getting in touch with yourself and going, "What do I actually want in my life?" You could just keep going and going and going and going. You have the potential, you have the ability, you have everything. You've got a winning hand, right? You could just keep going. It's an interesting question we all have to ask at some point which is, "What does... What's good for me? What kind of life do I actually want?" Because, of course, I could keep going. More is all availa- always available, but more time isn't. And, and I think that's... When I look at, when I look at women in motherhood, I just think it's trying to quiet the noise, going, "What is it I actually want with my life?" I've had to do that. Me and Audrey have had to really think about what do we want with our lives. Like, what's, what kind of life are we looking for? How much does that involve us working? What's going to make us happier at the end of the day? I, it's no secret, like, when I thought... I, for most of my life when I thought about kids, I was like sweating. Just, "Oh, my God, this is terrifying." I don't know. Like, I've got friends of mine who from the age of 22, male friends of mine, who were like, "I'm, I want kids. I know it. I want to be..." I spoke to Matthew McConaughey a week ago and he was like, "I always knew my biggest dream was to be a dad." I cannot relate. (laughs) But when Audrey and I sit down, we're like, we look at all of it, and, and we go, "Yeah, like, this feels right. It feels right to do this." I don't know when, like, we'll figure that out. That's between us, but this feels like something... This feels like it's really important to us, even if it cost us in other ways. And it will cost us in other ways. But those, those are, like, really adult calculations, and I, I think everyone has to make them. And that demonization of people is a, is a bad thing, of course.
Episode duration: 2:13:00
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