Most People Can’t Handle This Level of Honesty - Alex Hormozi (4K)

1. 0:00 – 14:48

   Control Freak Or High Standards?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What did you call this? The podcasting booty call? We come together for a very intense three hours, don't see each other for six months until I text you again and say, "What you doing?"

   2. AHAlex Hormozi0:08

      (laughs) It's exactly that.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:09

      All right, so we're gonna go through some of the best lessons I've learned from you over the last couple of months. First one, "Control freak is a word people with low standards use to describe people with high standards. You're not a control freak, you just want it done right the first time. You're not anxious, you care. Do not expect mediocre people to support world-class goals."

   4. AHAlex Hormozi0:36

      I think most people feel really lonely when you want something that doesn't currently exist. And so some people call that dream, some people call that goals. Whatever it is, you're trying to pull something from your mind into reality, and you want it done a certain way. And if it's not done that way, it's not what you imagined. And so people on the outside will throw stones and call you names that they think will change your behavior and get you to stop. And the more I have been the person trying to pull things into reality, the more I've tried to weather and build kind of defenses against those things, so that when those stones get hurled at you by being called a control freak or by saying you micromanage things or that you have incredibly high standards, the answer is yes, because I want it done right the first time. Because either way we're going to... If you have enough will, it's going to get done the way that I want it to get done regardless. And it'll be less painful if we just do it right the first time, because we will still have to do it, and you may have to do it three or four more times, but eventually you'll just s- succumb to the fact that we're going to do it this way. And I think all of the great things that have happened for humanity have been from one man or woman who had an idea and just wouldn't let people shake it from them.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:48

      The standard of right isn't actually that insane when you think about it. It's just right. It's just done without error. And I guess that the margin that some people consider to be right and other people consider to be right just changes.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi2:06

      I'm trying to think of a really good example for this, but, like, the level of detail... I mean, it's, it's the difference between... it's the difference between a book that gets 10 or 100 five-star reviews and a book that gets 100,000 five-star reviews. And everyone wants a silver bullet, but most of the things that make great products is 100 golden BBs. And so it's one of those things we have is, there's no silver bullets, only hundreds of golden BBs. There's just h- hundreds of tiny little improvements. It's like, how can we look at the can? How can we improve the way it ships? What about the weight? What about the color scheme? How does it sit in the shelves? How are people gonna look at it in this market versus this market? Or, like, how does this name appear on hats and on shirts and on, and on sites, and what's the RGB, you know, whatever the color scap- scope is here versus there? And it's just 1,000 details that someone who does not care will not put the work to look into, because they're trying to check a box rather than to make something that people will love. Or, um... I heard this from... Shoot, I can't remember who it was from, um, but basically that the best art is art where the artist makes it for themselves. And where you see commercial work is where a bunch of people are trying to make something for an audience. And so it's they're trying to, like, rinse and recycle stuff that actually solves no one's problems, because no one is actually the audience. Whereas when you make it for yourself, there's thousands of people just like you who will, who have the same depth of understanding of it, but it feels selfish in the moment to make something for yourself. But when you make it for yourself, you actually make it for everyone.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:41

      But you can be reliably informed that there's some non-insignificant minority of people who also think like you-

   8. AHAlex Hormozi3:47

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:47

      ... who also have the same problems as you, who also have the same fears as you.

   10. AHAlex Hormozi3:50

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:50

       So I'm going through two projects at the moment, one being a book and the other being Utonic-

   12. AHAlex Hormozi3:54

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:54

       ... that is nascent, and it's new.

   14. AHAlex Hormozi3:57

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:57

       And that means that there's lots more of these small things-

   16. AHAlex Hormozi4:01

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:01

       ... that are actually quite big things.

   18. AHAlex Hormozi4:02

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:03

       But I was telling you before we started about the fact there's a hyphen, and there's a hyphen-

   20. AHAlex Hormozi4:06

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:06

       ... missing between one piece of copy and another piece of copy, but it's printed on a million cans.

   22. AHAlex Hormozi4:09

       (laughs) Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:10

       And then you're like, for fuck's sake. But being concerned about being seen as someone who has too high standards is something that for quite a while I felt ashamed about-

   24. AHAlex Hormozi4:23

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:24

       ... because you feel like a bother, you feel like you're being unnecessarily... it's not even detail-oriented, it's picky.

   26. AHAlex Hormozi4:33

       Cumbersome, yeah. 100%, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson4:34

       Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, laborious.

   28. AHAlex Hormozi4:36

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:36

       Um, and I realized probably last year, it only took me until last year to realize that not succumbing to stopping doing that is probably one of the only reasons why I've had any success.

   30. AHAlex Hormozi4:50

       I mean, I think if... So for anyone who's listening, if you have that, I c- I would consider it a gift. Um, it makes sense for the majority of people to be opposed to that, because you do make more work for everyone else, but the product of that work is so much better. And so if you want the work that you have to last and to be meaningful and make an impact, it comes from 100 golden BBs, of 100 particularities, of 100 peculiarities that you are picky about, because the whole thing needs to work. And what happens is if you have a big project, lots of people have to get involved, but there still needs to be one vision. And otherwise, it looks like a Frankenstein, where everyone just checks a box of something they did in the past, they just copy and paste it over. And then it doesn't resonate with anyone, because again, they just did it for everyone rather than for the artist. And so using that as a frame has given me permission to be me in an unreasonable world. (laughs)
2. 14:48 – 22:00

   How People Get Older Without Getting Better

   1. CWChris Williamson14:48

      how to get older without getting better. Keep relearning the same lesson. If you keep making the same mistake over and over, the mistake isn't the problem, you are.

   2. AHAlex Hormozi15:02

      So I define learning by same condition, new behavior. And so when you go to a video game and you battle through the level and you battle the boss, if you keep doing the same thing to the boss and you keep losing, then you have not learned because you have the same condition and the same behavior. And so I often say that, like, for anyone who's listening to this podcast, if the goal is to get better and you're like, "Man, I really want to learn something from this podcast," if you listen to this podcast and then you're in the same exact conditions as you were before and then you do not change your behavior, you learned nothing. And so using that definition has at least allowed me to change my behavior faster, which then goes into rate of learning, which I define as intelligence. And so a lot of people are like, "Man, he's so smart, but he just doesn't..." It's like, well, then, if he doesn't change his behavior and he's in the same conditions, he's a dummy. He's not that smart. And so if you are trying to battle the same boss over and over again and you don't change what you're doing and the boss keeps beating you, then it's not the game's problem, it's your problem. You are the problem. And I think that's, um... Like, if you, if you continue... I, I talked about... Obviously, I'm, I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, but I usually do this when I have a, a crowd, I just say like, "Hey, raise your hand if you work all the hours of the day," and a lot, you know, most of the crowd raises their hand. I say, "Okay, who here has been stuck at the same revenue level for six months or more?" And then I say, "Keep the hands up." And, like, honestly, most of the time, the same hands are raised. I say, "You're doing the wrong shit." Like, if you put all your inputs and the outputs haven't changed, then you have the same condition and the same behavior, and so you have learned nothing. And so that has always just been my reframe. And so over time, if, if you're moving up in entrepreneurship, you're moving up in career, your behavior should change because it means you've learned.

   3. CWChris Williamson16:54

      Exposure to information isn't learning.

   4. AHAlex Hormozi16:57

      (laughs) Great TL;DR. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson17:00

      It's true.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi17:01

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson17:01

      It's true, and it's the same with memory. It's literally the way that memory works. The best way to work out how the human memory system works is repeated recall, not repeated exposure, right? You have to drag it out of memory and use it, not just see it a million times.

   8. AHAlex Hormozi17:18

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:18

      And this is kind of the same thing with the lesson. It's you can listen to any of the podcasts that exist on the internet, or the ones that we've done, or the ones that you love, or whatever, and if you don't apply anything, it- it's a waste of time. And this is... The best solution for this is Tim Ferriss's The Good Shit Sticks. Look, what's the thing from the podcast or the book or the audiobook or the, the whatever that you read or listened to that you can't stop thinking about? That you go to bed and you think about it, that you took a screenshot or a screen recording and sent it in the group chat, that you, like, texted your mom about it at 3:00 in the morning? "Oh, this really explains the way that I felt in school or the way that I felt when such and such broke up with me," or whatever. That's the thing. That's the thing to focus on. But a lot of the time, the me- the problem with mental masturbation is that the amount of information you can intake versus the amount of change that you can deploy-

   10. AHAlex Hormozi18:09

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:09

       ... is asymmetric.

   12. AHAlex Hormozi18:10

       Yeah, when I was getting started on my, um, entrepreneurial journey, and I would say this is like pre-entre- this was when I was an entrepreneur, right? Like, I hadn't quit my job yet. I started reading all these self-help books, and I remember reading, like, it was probably, like, my 10th book in a row, and I realized that the words in that book contradicted, like, the second self-help book that I... You know, one was like, "It's all about goals," the other one's like, "It's all about taking, you know, steps," or whatever it was, right? And I, and I... All of a sudden, I was like, "You know, my life is the same."

   13. CWChris Williamson18:35

       (laughs)

   14. AHAlex Hormozi18:37

       ... I've read all these books, but my- I- I still literally live in the exact same condo in Baltimore, doing the same job. Like, nothing has changed. And so I just made the commitment that whatever the next book that I was gonna read, I would just not read another book until I'd done everything in that book. Um, and I- that's when I quit my job and I did a whole bunch of other things. And, um, I've actually more or less stuck with that in terms of, like, when I read books or even listen to podcasts, I usually do it with an intention to get something out of it. And, um, I usually have notes up. And so that's- so my intake on information, 'cause I- because I'll- I get asked a lot, I'm sure you do, like, I actually don't read that much. Um, I definitely don't read non-fiction. I read, like, fantasy once in a while. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson19:15

       Red Rising, baby.

   16. AHAlex Hormozi19:16

       That's right. Um, but it's because usually I get overwhelmed with the amount of things I would have to do, and so I'm like, "I don't need more information." I'm g- like, I'm g- like I could read a chapter and be like, "All right, that's it. I- like, it'll take me two weeks to do this." And so then, like, the rest of the time is doing that, and so-

   17. CWChris Williamson19:30

       How do you ensure that the things that you're reading are giving you good advice? Because if you didn't move on before you took two weeks to go and do the thing-

   18. AHAlex Hormozi19:37

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson19:37

       ... but the thing was dog shit, you've spent two weeks going backward.

   20. AHAlex Hormozi19:41

       So I would probably- I would make the argument that I wouldn't have gone backwards 'cause I would have gained the experience. And so I would have more context to know what the second thing was gonna be, and that's just kind of like the trial by fire, learning through iteration, and I think I- I tend to do more of that. Um...

   21. CWChris Williamson19:57

       Sort of a win or learn philosophy?

   22. AHAlex Hormozi19:59

       Yeah. And I- I would say that, like, there- there are entrepreneurs who are definitely, like, super, super-duper planners, and there are entrepreneurs who are more like, "Let's just move and break shit and we'll figure it out." I tend to be really this on the micro in terms of, like, move shit and break, you know, like, we'll figure it out as we go, and I just tend to be a planner only in the big, like, very grand, like, "What do I really wanna do in 10 years?" But the majority of the time, it's like, "Let's see." And we'll- we'll- we'll learn- I've learned so much, like, so much of the content that I have comes from just fucking up (laughs) in business, and people are like, "This is such original content." I was like, "This is just 'cause that's what my life was." I just, like, I made this mistake and it didn't work, but I said this one thing one time and then all these people bought, and I was like, "Ooh, how do I do that again?" And so, like, it was always through iteration. And I- I- I've read all these books, but there's a difference between knowing how, uh, or sorry, knowing that and knowing how. Like, knowing that, maybe this works, maybe. But once you do it, it's a different type of learning, where, at least for me, it's bu- been that way. You could read- you could read 100 books on sales, but when you take your first cold call, all of that goes out the window because-

   23. CWChris Williamson21:00

       Yeah.

   24. AHAlex Hormozi21:00

       ... you actually have to (laughs) you actually have to sell.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:02

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3. 22:00 – 26:58

   Don’t Be Worried About People Who Imitate Your Work

   1. CWChris Williamson22:00

      This is related to something I wrote last week. "Don't be so worried about people who imitate your work. They only know the what but not the why."

   2. AHAlex Hormozi22:08

      Oh.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:08

      "If you stopped being creative, so would they. A photocopier isn't an artist, even if it can recreate the Mona Lisa."

   4. AHAlex Hormozi22:19

      I love that, because you think that, like, you- you are source in that situation. And so everyone is therefore, like, a subset of you, and they require you to live, you don't require them. And the equal opposite is, I think we should be more fearful of when everyone stops copy- copying you. Like, the day that no one copies you is far, far more frightening than the day everyone's copying you.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:42

      Yeah. Jimmy Carr refers to China as a cover band.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi22:45

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson22:46

      You know?

   8. AHAlex Hormozi22:47

      That's great.

   9. CWChris Williamson22:47

      (laughs) Yeah. It's like a- they're the cover band of The Beatles, and he says, "You know, they're- they're good in- in- in many ways. They're able to produce things at more scale and so on and so forth, but they're not driving the innovation forward-

   10. AHAlex Hormozi22:57

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson22:57

       ... in that same way."

   12. AHAlex Hormozi22:59

       Yeah, the idea of getting upset about people copying is just ridiculous. Like, yeah, that's all I- that's all I got on that.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:05

       But you understand why it's painful, right?

   14. AHAlex Hormozi23:07

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson23:07

       If someone's gone through, okay, let's test and test and test and test and test and then finally find a particular formula- formula that works, and then 10 people downstream-

   16. AHAlex Hormozi23:17

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson23:18

       ... get the benefit of this hard-

   18. AHAlex Hormozi23:21

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson23:21

       ... laborious, effortful, late-night grind and iteration, and they just got to be like, "Oh, that thing."

   20. AHAlex Hormozi23:28

       Yeah. I- so I think that, like, they- they'll be able to copy what they can see, but they won't be able to copy what they can't see, which is understanding why each of those pieces are in place. And when something changes in the future, they won't be able to iterate from there because they don't know why it was there in the first place.

   21. CWChris Williamson23:43

       It's the what not the why.

   22. AHAlex Hormozi23:43

       Right. And so, like, I mean, I've obviously dealt this with- in a business context where, like, real dollars are at stake. And so, like, in the GymWorld, you know, Gym Launch, for those who don't know, I had a big licensing company, we had 5,000 locations, and anyways, so we had basically business processes that we would, you know, iterate and figure out why this worked. And so then I had- I- I used to keep a list of names and then I ju- it got too long and tiresome to keep the names of all the people who tried to take the stuff and then sell it as their own.

   23. CWChris Williamson24:06

       (laughs)

   24. AHAlex Hormozi24:06

       Um, I say their- I say their names every night before I go to bed. You think I don't remember you? I remember all of you.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:12

       Yeah.

   26. AHAlex Hormozi24:12

       Um, and so none of them, 10 years later, are still around. And not- and none of them even came to a tenth of the size of Gym Launch, and it was because it wasn't theirs. Like, the person that I would be far more afraid of, somebody who comes out with a significantly better system than what we had to help gyms make more money and help their- you know, help their clients more, um, but, like, to this day, like, there still isn't one, and that one's- Gym Launch is still the category king in that- in- in that industry. And so it's, like, just- and that's because we put- and we were talking about this earlier.... everything is an R&D for us. And so we actually, like, were the only licensing company that had an R&D department and we would test, uh, we call them plays, but we'd test plays every f- every 14 days. And so we'd spend 50 or 100 grand on just a test. We'd be like, "All right, let's test this new marketing campaign." Or we'd say, "Hey, let's test this new, uh, high ticket sales process." Or, "Hey, what if we did... What if we tried to sell memberships via chat? Let's just give it a shot and see what happens." And, and honestly, 70% of the time it would be- it was worse than the control. Like, it didn't work as well. And what we would do is we'd present it to licensees and say, "Hey, guys, guess what we just spent 50 grand on that you don't have to spend money on? Look at the results of this sell memberships via chat."

   27. CWChris Williamson25:22

       Total dog shit.

   28. AHAlex Hormozi25:22

       Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, is that most people are actually really happy to, to know that it didn't work 'cause they- it felt like they were scratching an itch. They're like, "Oh, great. I don't have to do that one."

   29. CWChris Williamson25:30

       Yeah.

   30. AHAlex Hormozi25:30

       Like, "Someone did that test for me." So anyways, um, all that to say, uh, unless you have that, that trail of bodies behind you that led you to figure out this one thing, when there is a kink in the system because some external condition changes, which it always will, they then don't know, which means you're always still gonna be ahead.
4. 26:58 – 42:39

   The Cost of Being Exceptional

   1. CWChris Williamson26:58

      Reminder that if you want to be exceptional, you're going to be different from everyone else. That's what makes you exceptional. You can't fit in and also be exceptional. Both have discomfort. When you fit in, you have internal conflict because you're not being 100% you. When you're exceptional, you have external conflict because everyone sees you as different. Pick one. When your friends start to say you've changed, remember, it's because they don't know how to say you've grown.

   2. AHAlex Hormozi27:35

      I define words a lot because it helps me kinda, like, make sense of the world. And, um, like, exceptional is, is, like, an obvious one, right? We use the word exceptional like you are not like everyone else. Um, but even saying it like that, like, "You are not like everyone else." And so if someone says, "You're not like everyone else," then you can just reframe that as, like, "I am exceptional." (laughs) And that's not a bad thing. Um, and most... And I, I don't... And I actually think that most people ha- like, this might be counter to most people's beliefs, but I think most people have the potential to be exceptional and I th- because most people are peculiar in their own way. They just stifle that because they want to be accepted by most people but in so doing, never accomplish what they want to do because they conform. Uh, and so, like, if, there's probably a lot of things about the world, or even your world around you, that you're like, "This never made sense to me," but then you do it anyways. And I, I think that a lot of innovation and a lot of what makes people exceptional is feeling, you know, thinking that thought or seeing that thing and then being like, "Huh, I don't think I'm gonna follow that rule anymore." Like, "Why do I need to shower twice a day? Huh." Like, I don't know, like, "Why do I need to wear different clothing? Huh." Like, there's just a lot of these social norms that people, you know, usually pass down to us or they're, you know, bred into us in high school and college and things like that. Um, but it's, like, you see a guy who, you know, wears a cowboy hat and dresses a ce- certain way and he basically wants to say, "I am this, I am this archetype of person." But if cowboy boots aren't as comfortable for you as New Balances are and you know that and you still wear cowboy boots, I would call you a fraud. Because, like, that is the... It's, uh, it's like a micro rebellion against yourself.

   3. CWChris Williamson29:25

      Yeah.

   4. AHAlex Hormozi29:25

      It's, like, there is... And, like, I look at old people a lot because usually they don't give a shit anymore. They've just, like, given up. And, uh, there was a survey that they did where the number one reason that old people, like, don't have as much drama and they're happier is they say they, they cited they literally don't have time for it. Like, literally, they don't have time for it and I found that so interesting and I was like, "Well, if I'm gonna eventually be that way when I'm 80, I might as well just start being that way now." And so they usually wear, like, really comfortable footwear and, like, they, they keep their surroundings... Like, whatever weird peculiarities they have, they just accept them. And so I think a lot of t- like, if, if life is a long journey of self-acceptance, I think the earlier you can accept your own peculiarities as just part of you rather than trying to justify them or mold to what you, to the archetype that you think is acceptable within your social circle, um, at least for me... Like, there's this period of discomfort when you change anything 'cause everyone around you wants you to fit within the label that they are, are comfortable with.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:19

      But they also have the anchor of what you were before.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi30:22

      Yeah, exactly. And so they try and, like, they, they don't... People don't like that and so they're like, "No, no, I like you in this box so just stay, uh, th- I know you're having a little thing right now. Don't worry, just, just..." And they just wanna shove you back into it. And there's, there's a lot of uncomfortable conversations that you have to have where it becomes really socially awkward. Um, and so, like, I, I said one the other day about, like, going home for the holidays and the reason I don't like doing it is...... 'cause often I have to confront a lot of people that I haven't seen in a long time, and they'll speak to me in a way that I don't like. And before that, I would roll it off, like, "Whatever, no big deal." But, um, I don't accept that.

   7. CWChris Williamson31:00

      Didn't you torpedo a family holiday a couple of years ago?

   8. AHAlex Hormozi31:03

      Many.

   9. CWChris Williamson31:05

      (laughs)

   10. AHAlex Hormozi31:06

       (laughs) Many.

   11. CWChris Williamson31:08

       Yeah, I think... But that's the, when your friends start to say you've changed, it's because they don't know how to say you've grown.

   12. AHAlex Hormozi31:16

       And because they see so few people who have, so it makes sense that they don't have that. So I see that as a lack of skill, not, not malice. Like, it's not that they're bad people, they just don't even know it, because so few people do change.

   13. CWChris Williamson31:26

       Yeah.

   14. AHAlex Hormozi31:26

       So few people do grow.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:27

       Have you seen this image? It's a person whose heart and head are flowers. It's kind of a 2D drawing-

   16. AHAlex Hormozi31:34

       Okay.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:34

       ... it's a bit of a sketch.

   18. AHAlex Hormozi31:35

       Okay.

   19. CWChris Williamson31:35

       And, um, they say, this person with the kind of smaller flower head and heart, says, "You've changed."

   20. AHAlex Hormozi31:43

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:43

       And the person on the other side with this huge blooming thing says, "I should hope so."

   22. AHAlex Hormozi31:48

       Yeah. I haven't seen it, but I see it in my head. Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:51

       Yeah. It's brilliant. Uh, I, one of my friends, George Mack, told me this five years ago-

   24. AHAlex Hormozi31:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson31:57

       ... I think. "I'm astounded by how many people want to be spectacular in life, but also want to be normal. By being normal, you are, by definition, aiming for average. Normal people get normal results. Exceptional people get exceptional results. You literally can't do what everyone else does and expect to not get what everyone else has got. By doing what everyone else does, you guarantee average results."

   26. AHAlex Hormozi32:21

       Okay. So this comes down to everything that, like, business... I mean, obviously I come from the business and investing world. Um, like, if everyone is jumping onto crypto, like, by the time you have all the information to make a perfect decision, it's too late. And by the time you have consensus where everyone's like, "That's a good investment," it probably isn't, because it's already been mispriced, 'cause it's already, like, it's already inflated and it's above what its intrinsic value is. And so, like, good investors fundamentally can think for themselves. And it's such an easy thing to say and such a hard thing to do. And so it's being able to say, if I shut myself in a room and I had to come up with a value for something, and just use my own mind to come up with what I think this is worth, it's that that answer that you get in a room, in isolation, with no internet connection, that you believe in that number more than every single other person's. And most people can't do that. But, like, that ability... And then what happens though is, if you really have to believe in that rather than everyone else's, you double check your fucking math. Because if it is different than everyone else's, you have the op, you, like, that is what opportunity looks like.

   27. CWChris Williamson33:25

       It's called advantage. (laughs)

   28. AHAlex Hormozi33:26

       Right. It's like, and you have the potential to make a shitload of money, or lose a ton of money because you didn't check your math. And so the more I've been reinforced for thinking independently... And in the beginning it's on small things, and then you just continue to reinforce that cycle of, "Huh, I came to this conclusion on my own, it seems different than everyone else's, but I think, I think my thing makes sense, so I'm gonna do that."

   29. CWChris Williamson33:46

       How would you advise someone to overcome that regression to the mean, that pull to not make waves, to not be heterodox or non-typical when it comes to their decision-making? 'Cause it's hard. You're talking about this internal conflict versus external conflict.

   30. AHAlex Hormozi34:07

       Yeah.
5. 42:39 – 50:12

   Differences Between Fame & Respect

   1. CWChris Williamson42:39

      a big difference between becoming known and becoming respected. Don't let an algorithm convince you otherwise.

   2. AHAlex Hormozi42:49

      I mean, I think this is probably super pertinent for, for people in our position. Um, but...I'll go from the internet perspective and we can circle back to IRL. Um, but I mean, a lot of people will make content, so obviously I make stuff for me too. Like, talk about artists making things for themselves, like I make most... My tweets are just like notes to self. Um, but like if I ever feel like I have to sacrifice who I am or the values that I believe in order to, like, get more views or something like that, I see it happen more times than not because the algorithm and the views and the likes become kind of a proxy for conforming in, in their own way. Like, "Everyone likes this type of thing. Do more of that." And that makes me feel very like dance, monkey, dance. And, um, I think there's, there's few things that kill my soul more than that. And so I would rather, you know, I would rather the algorithm shut me off tomorrow and I continue to make stuff that I find interesting, that 10 people find interesting, that is actually the same stuff as me, than just have these viral hits that I feel like I'm Ronald McDonald in, um, and just feel like I've completely lost my soul. And I, I do think, as a side note, that if you do the first one where your intention is to maybe help find the 10 people who are really interested in your thing, you probably will create more of the viral hits. But when you solve for the other way, I think you accomplish neither.

   3. CWChris Williamson44:06

      I have this theory that more creators fall out of favor because they become cringe than because they become irrelevant.

   4. AHAlex Hormozi44:13

      I love that. You... Yeah, I love that.

   5. CWChris Williamson44:15

      I think it's, I think it's true. I think if you think about the thing that you do, almost anything that anybody is creating is public-facing, 'cause if it wasn't public-facing, it would just be a hobby. Doing your painting because you love painting is a hobby. Doing your painting to try and sell it is something that you do as a business or as a, a public project. The flywheel is so vicious in the positive direction and even more vicious in the negative direction.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi44:46

      (laughs) .

   7. CWChris Williamson44:46

      If it becomes cancerous or uncool or untrendy or catastrophic or cringe to be seen, to be watching, or listening to, or consuming the thing that you make, it is you're permanently going to be swimming upstream and it is only going to get worse. Which is why you look at... Shane Gillis is a really great example of this at the moment. He's someone who is great at his craft, big platform, moved to Austin, got all of the multipliers in place, but he isn't cringe.

   8. AHAlex Hormozi45:17

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:17

      And because he's not cringe, if you've watched Beautiful Dogs, his Netflix special-

   10. AHAlex Hormozi45:23

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:23

       ... it's not uncool. It's like there's this idea in publishing, 'cause I've been doing my research ahead of the book. There's this idea in publishing called the subway test.

   12. AHAlex Hormozi45:31

       Okay.

   13. CWChris Williamson45:32

       Would someone be prepared to have the full dust jacket version of your book out on the subway?

   14. AHAlex Hormozi45:38

       Okay.

   15. CWChris Williamson45:39

       And if your book is like, "Stop erectile dysfunction now..."

   16. AHAlex Hormozi45:42

       Oh, so it is an erection problem, right? (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson45:44

       Yeah. Like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like no more flatulence today or something. Like if that's, if that's your book, it's gonna be very difficult.

   18. AHAlex Hormozi45:51

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson45:51

       Or if it's written by somebody where it's like, "Oh, really don't wanna do that."

   20. AHAlex Hormozi45:55

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson45:55

       So... And, and this is the point where there are tons and tons and tons of people on the planet who have huge platforms that nobody respects.

   22. AHAlex Hormozi46:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson46:07

       And I've seen, even within my seven-year career of doing this, the arc of people trade integrity for exposure and not be able to buy it back.

   24. AHAlex Hormozi46:19

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson46:20

       Because there is no return policy on your integrity.

   26. AHAlex Hormozi46:23

       Mm-hmm. On your reputation. Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson46:24

       And those people would give anything to be back in the cool kids club.

   28. AHAlex Hormozi46:33

       I, I mean, this is a co- Like, I love this entire train. Um, I was thinking like, what, what creates... Like, what's, what's timelessly not cringe, right? So like, if cringe is the ultimate, like, what we don't want, then, like, what would, what is forever not cringe? And the only thing that I can, like, really th- think of is, is just true authenticity, which is an overused word, but again, easy to say, hard to do. I think what is, what is forever cringe on the equal opposite side is, is pandering. Like, whenever you're seen as someone who's only doing stuff for other people's opinion, approval, likes, whatever, especially double cringe when it's for your own personal gain. And so if the equal opposite of that is, uh, something that is, to my personal detriment, um, that is truly something that I believe in, it honestly doesn't matter what it is, because there are some people that probably believe things that I don't believe, but I genuinely think, based on what I see, that they genuinely believe it. And it's... And they don't really stand to gain much for believing it.

   29. CWChris Williamson47:37

       Yeah.

   30. AHAlex Hormozi47:38

       There's no cringe there. It's just like, "That fan- That man fucking believes that." And I think that, um, some of the, you know, some of the characters in our current, you know, politisphere and things like that, like, many people, you know, you say the word Trump, and you have half the p- you know, people who hate you and the other half that love you. It's like, I think most people agree that he believes what he says. Now, whether you believe the content of what he's saying is a different story, but m- Like, I don't think many people have called him as somebody who's like, "I think he's... He doesn't really think that about himself." Like, no, I think he, I think he really does. And even... I'm, I'm just gonna push the edges 'cause that's where you have to, like, explore the fringe. Look at someone like Kanye, who's been borderline canceled for, I mean, multiple times, right? But like, why is Kanye, quote, "uncancellable"? 'Cause he hasn't been, right? Not really. Like, if he came out tomorrow with a hit c- a h- a hit album, I'll bet you it would fucking sell. (laughs) Because I think that, at least for me, from what I see, I think he does what he believes. And people might be like, "He's mentally unstable. There's all these other things." But, like, no one thinks he's being fake. And I think that, like, if that becomes the North Star of like, "I just never wanna become cringe," then it's just never be fake.
6. 50:12 – 59:50

   The Key to Authenticity

   1. CWChris Williamson50:12

      to this, "People are attracted to authenticity, but it's hard to define for me. Here's my best attempt. True alignment of what you think, what you say, and what you do. The hardest part is realizing that our thoughts are fucked-"

   2. AHAlex Hormozi50:25

      (laughs) .

   3. CWChris Williamson50:25

      "... and that we have to fix them instead of faking the next two."

   4. AHAlex Hormozi50:31

      Wholeheartedly agree (laughs) .

   5. CWChris Williamson50:33

      You said it.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi50:34

      (laughs) Man. Yeah, that's dead on (laughs) .

   7. CWChris Williamson50:37

      I've got a- I've got a really cool idea. Ha- herostatic fame. Many people would rather be hated than unknown. In ancient Greece, Herostratus burned down the temple of Artemis purely so that he would be remembered. Nowadays, we have nuisance influencers who stream themselves committing crimes and harassing people purely for clout. Herostratic fame.

   8. AHAlex Hormozi51:02

      Yeah. That's like the, you gain the world, but you lose your soul, kind of. I mean, I- I'm also the last person to judge. Uh, and so like if that's what you want, then by all means do it.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:12

      I don't think it's what people want. I think that they, they think it's what they want. I've been playing with this idea, or this name. One of the concepts that the book will be focused on, intentionalism.

   10. AHAlex Hormozi51:23

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson51:24

       And Essentialism by Greg McKeown is one of my favorite ever books, and I figured it would be a nice like, hat nod. Doing what you mean to do, and wanting what you want to want is so fucking hard to do, and so rare, because we're built to conform.

   12. AHAlex Hormozi51:45

       I think one of the- my life goals, and I can summarize it in a question, but, um, is to be fearless. And that's, I mean, equal opposite cour- courage is another word. But I love this question, which is, "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" And I just- I love thinking about that when I'm thinking about big life decisions. Like, what would I do if I weren't afraid? And it's usually like, the big one, the- the bigger thing that I really wanna do, but I'm afraid to do it. It's like, that's what I should do. Um, and to your point about you had the five things that you told your team. The one that we have is, um, originally it was something that we called one of one, which is... make only things that we can make. Like, you'll never see a Coca-Cola business breakdown from Alex Hormozi because anyone can do a Coca-Cola business breakdown. That's not one of one content. But if I say, "I doubled the sales of this company by implementing these four things," no one else can say that, 'cause no one else did it, right? So it's one of one. And so as the book launch and whatnot came, um, we took one of one and it became this big massive thing. And it wasn't, it stopped being about like, what can... only do things that only we can do. It was about doing things that we didn't even know we could do yet, which became one of zero. And that's why that became the brand that I'm gonna continue to wear for the next few years, um, and build that association. But I think that that kind of encapsulates my personal life goal, which is... like, what would I do if I weren't afraid? And what would I do if I didn't- if I knew I couldn't fail? And the idea that I will never wish for fewer epic stories at the end of my life. And I've never regretted failures, I've always regretted things that I didn't try. And so just along those lines of trying to create more bias internally towards action rather than inaction. And normalizing consequences of failure, as- as we said earlier, win or learn. And I think that- that little frame, believe it or not, um, for anyone who's like, on the teetering edge of like, what- should I do that thing? When I was debating quitting my job, which is still the hardest decision I've made to- to this day still, of the many that I've made, um, was I figured that if I didn't make the entrepreneurship thing work, I would have a hell of a story for business school. And that was actually like, the- the reasoned argument that I gave myself for being willing to quit, was that I think that with my experience I'll still be able to get a job, and I'll have a really cool story of entrepreneurship that I could use to apply to get into business school and then eventually get a job later. And so most times we catastrophize any failure to death, right? Which is like, "I'm gonna- I'm gonna fail. I'm gonna lose all my money. I'm gonna be homeless. No one's gonna talk to me. I'm gonna die." Right? But like, if you- if you play it out two natural steps, like, "Okay, I lose everything. What do I do?" I would probably have a couch or floor that someone would lend me. Because at least socially, I haven't been- I haven't fucked everyone I know, and so I have that. It's like, okay, so I would have some capacity to do that. Okay. Is there anything that I could do in the meantime in order to make money? Well, sure, I could drive Uber and strip, and I've already, you know, I've told this story before, but for me that was genuinely my plan B 'cause I knew that I could probably make 70, 80 grand a year driving Uber. I could probably make 150 stripping, maybe 200. Strip at the gay bars, the guys pay better. Uh, and then, uh, and you know, boom. I've got 280,000 a year. I could live on the floor, and then I could restart again. And so that's because I don't have a lot of shame with that kind of stuff. That's not like- that doesn't matter to me. But I think...... playing out the fear. Layla says this and I love it, but that fear is a mile wide and an inch deep. And so it looks like this ocean that you're gonna step into and drown. But as soon as you step into it, you realize it was not that deep at all and you can keep walking through it. And, um, I just love that visual because a lot of times when it's like we have this anxiety around this big decision we have to make, if you actually take the step and realize that it's not death. (laughs) You're not gonna drown immediately. There's plenty of other steps you can take from there, even if you get a little wet.

   13. CWChris Williamson55:45

       Did I tell you my story about a friend who went through a cancellation and was worried he was a coward?

   14. AHAlex Hormozi55:51

       Oh, like a, like a public cancellation thing?

   15. CWChris Williamson55:53

       Yeah.

   16. AHAlex Hormozi55:53

       Okay.

   17. CWChris Williamson55:54

       So I went for dinner quite a while ago now with this guy that I was pretty interested in, and he knew what I did, and we went, sort of bumped into each other and, "What are you doing?" "Uh, let's go for dinner." And I knew about the situation that he'd been through, but he didn't know that I knew. So I was like, "Tell me." Like I'm... there's no pressure.

   18. AHAlex Hormozi56:14

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson56:14

       And he was, uh, able to be unencumbered. And basically, he went through like a, a tough cancellation where kind of the whole world came down to bear on him. And he was telling me this story. It was at a very interesting time. I was, uh, like being very reflective. And he said, "My whole life, I've been worried that I was a coward. I was terrified that I was a coward. But I'd never been through a situation where I'd had to bring absolutely everything to bear on my life. And I'm a hard man, and I like to hang around with hard men, and I like to shoot guns and do jujitsu and, and, and be around Navy SEALs and stuff like that. But I always had this fear in the back of my mind that I might secretly be a coward." And then he said the cancellation thing happened, and it wasn't a very difficult one-rep max. It wasn't a really hard CrossFit workout. It was something outside of his control. And he used this term that I love, and he said, uh, "I could always hear my better self clearing his throat in the room next door. And I always wondered what would happen if I had to really, really wrangle everything if the whole world came crashing down on me. And I wanted to work out whether or not I was a coward." And he said thankfully, he kicked the door in and came through. But I just love that, "I could always hear my better self clearing his throat in the room next door." But he'd never been fully tested. Done lots of hard things, a lot of acclaim, very successful, blah, blah, blah. But we all know, that's your thing, right? Like, but I'll know about whether or not you've left something on the table.

   20. AHAlex Hormozi57:49

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson57:50

       And, uh, yeah. He... there was always just 5% still in the tank when he was doing things, about how he felt, about how invested he was. He always had a get out of jail free card in one way or another. And, uh, yeah, I loved that. "I'd, fucking, I could always hear my better self clearing his throat in the room next door."

   22. AHAlex Hormozi58:12

       Two things on that. So I think if we're, if we're consolidating some of the points we were making earlier, the but I'll know refrain, I think that a lot of the personal excellence comes down to making the but I'll know more important than the but everyo- what will everyone else think. Because the, I think the true test of whether you're a, quote, perfectionist or not is if everyone else in the room says it's exceptional, and then you say, "But I'll know it's not because I don't think it's exceptional yet." If you still break what everyone else believes is beautiful so that you can make the thing that you... make it the way you want it to make, or make it the way you want it to be, I think that is probably like the, the truest test of whether or not you really do value your own opinion over those of other people's. And if you really wanna be true to, quote, the art, whatever your art is. Art can... I'm using it as like a generic term. It could be the career or the, even like the ex- the per- (laughs) the financial projections that you're supposed to do at your company. Like there is a way you could do it and do it absolutely fucking excellent, and there's a way you could do it that you could phone it in and probably not get in trouble. But the thing is that you'd know, and then you'd be the type of person who always phones it in. And that to me is disgusting, and that would make me disgusted with me. And that is the thing that would make me want to peel my skin off because I would hate me. And I think that's why so many people do hate them, because they do settle and they do make these things and they do know and still ignore it. And so they ignore the man in the other room who's clearing his throat, and they shut the door and they lock it and they never let that guy in. And so they look like everyone else, they act like everyone else, and they get what everyone else gets.

7. 59:50 – 1:09:23

   The Power of Imperfect Action

   1. CWChris Williamson59:50

      America was built on the backs of men who smoked cigarettes, drove without seatbelts-

   2. AHAlex Hormozi59:54

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson59:54

      ... and had bacon for breakfast. If you miss your biohacking routine this morning, you're going to be okay. There's a time for leverage, but there's also a time for violence, which is just brute force. People get really obsessed with optimal, which is getting the most bang for your buck. But there's also maximizing, which is just getting the most bucks. You lose more life trying to optimize everything than just living it. The stress of trying to be perfect is killing you more quickly than your imperfections.

   4. AHAlex Hormozi1:00:23

      Mm-hmm. I think that's an ode to billing, being willing to take huge amounts of imperfect action towards one goal and being willing to sacrifice other things for an extended period of time, despite the fact that other people say they're making a sacrifice. Like when we enter seasons, I call it, you know, the season of no, which is where you have... I have a extended duration where I say no to almost everything. And most people say that's unbalanced, and they hurl that as though it's a bad thing. They're like, "That's so imbalanced." You're like, "Yes, that's the point." Because if I had a balanced outcome, then I won't have the outsized return on this one thing. And so again, like there's so many of these little insults that people will throw at you, like, "You're unbalanced, you changed, you..." that they intend as insults. But if you actually don't take your society-programmed response and say, "Oh, they mean to insult me." But if you actually think about what they're saying...... they're saying something that's true, and then we just need to be okay with that truth because that was the choice we made to begin with. And so I think about that a lot, which is, like, how many things do people tell me that they intend to insult me with that I can take as a compliment?

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01:41

      Didn't someone bump into Layla walking down the street?

   6. AHAlex Hormozi1:01:44

      Yeah (laughs) . It was- it- it happened so recently. So yeah, we're walking down the street, someone bumps into her. I, like, we don't always walk, like, side by side 'cause there's lots of people, and so we, like, split up sometimes. Anyway, so she- she comes back to me and she was like, "Guess what this guy just said?" And I was like, "What?" And she was like, "He called me a skinny bitch." And I was like, "What?" And she- but she seemed so happy, and I was like, and I was like... Like, I just kinda shook my head, like, "Tell me more," like, "Explain." She was like, "I mean, he said I was skinny." (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson1:02:12

      (laughs)

   8. AHAlex Hormozi1:02:13

      And I was like, "This is the- this is the perfect example of him hurling an insult and her choosing not to be insulted."

   9. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

      Thank you.

   10. AHAlex Hormozi1:02:21

       (laughs) Yeah, thanks.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

       No, but really.

   12. AHAlex Hormozi1:02:23

       Yeah. (laughs) Do you really mean it? (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson1:02:26

       (laughs)

   14. AHAlex Hormozi1:02:27

       It- it, like, there... Like, I wonder how many times we've been insulted. Even at, like, in my younger days where someone said something to me that, like, if I had my current brain, I could've been like, "Y- you really mean it? (laughs) Thanks, man." And, um, yeah, like, so unbalanced. I remem- I remember I took that as such an insult for such a long period of time. Now, part of that was because when I wa- I was being brought up, balance was, like, one of the big frames of my household. It was like, "You have to be balanced," which really just meant you have to be awesome at everything. Um, but balance was the- was the word, so being unbalanced was- was a term that was used as an insult. And so, um, for so many years, I wanted to be balanced. Um, but then I was like, "Well, nothing great was ever achieved by people who tried to be great at all things." And so, I was like, "Okay, I'm just not gonna... I'm not... I'm- I might not have a- a great relationship for a long period of time." I mean, there was... Like, a lot of people don't know this, but in the early days of our rela- uh, of our relationship, um, even when we were married, I told Layla, so the first three years, um, I said, "The business comes before our marriage." So a lot of people don't know that. Um, and I was like, "Well..." And to me, it made sense. It was like, most people break up over money. The business makes money, so the business feeds us, and then we will be okay. That was kind of my- my thinking around it. Um, and w- we eventually flipped that to, like, "If we're good, the business will be fine." Uh, (laughs) but it took three years to get there. Um, but all that to say, like, I think having periods of imbalance, and maybe, to be fair, if we ha- if I hadn't had that priority at that time, maybe Gym Launch wouldn't have been what it became. And so I can't look back and say, like, "I should've done it different," because it's really easy to say that now. But, like, I might not be here to say that if I had been that way.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:04:05

       Oliver Burkeman's got this great frame where he talks about, "Choose in advance what you're going to suck at."

   16. AHAlex Hormozi1:04:10

       Oh, yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:11

       It's in 4,000 Weeks, and if you are a type A, go-getter person, who has what I call the curse of competence-

   18. AHAlex Hormozi1:04:20

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:20

       ... your options in life are restricted more by what you choose than what you can do.

   20. AHAlex Hormozi1:04:24

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:25

       You will feel disquiet when something that you used to be great at begins to slip because you've focused your attention elsewhere. You used to be in really great shape, you said that one of your goals this year was to get a raise or to be able to buy your first house or to find a partner or to do whatever. Hey, guess what? If you're spending four or five nights a week going to places where you can maybe date or going out on dates or doing whatever, you're probably not gonna have as much time to dedicate to the gym.

   22. AHAlex Hormozi1:04:54

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:04:54

       If you want to get that raise or be able to save for your first house or whatever, you're gonna have to work later, which maybe means that your friends are gonna drop off. If you-

   24. AHAlex Hormozi1:05:02

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:05:02

       ... pick whatever the thing is, there is a price that you begin to pay. And this cycle began for me so frequently toward the back end of my 20s, where I would dedicate myself to a thing, then something else would begin to slip. So I would then go, "Ooh, I'll just, I'll- I'll just give a little bit. I'll just-"

   26. AHAlex Hormozi1:05:18

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson1:05:18

       ... "give a little bit to that." And it's not an additive system, it's multiplicative. It's not two plus, like-

   28. AHAlex Hormozi1:05:27

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:05:27

       ... three, it's two times three. And that means that the more that you att- attend to the thing that you say that you're going to do, the more the gains accrue to you. And then you can still pivot back, but you need to periodize things.

   30. AHAlex Hormozi1:05:40

       Yeah.
8. 1:09:23 – 1:18:29

   Be Careful to Not Over-Optimise

   1. CWChris Williamson1:09:23

      Thinking about the perils of over-optimization is something I brought up with Huberman last year. And, you know, I think a lot of people... I have a friend who's a very well-known DJ that told me he was falling out of love with DJing because he knew that it was damaging his sleep, and because he knew how important sleep was to performance-

   2. AHAlex Hormozi1:09:45

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:09:45

      ... that he kind of got him... The, the bar stool had been turned upside down a little bit.

   4. AHAlex Hormozi1:09:49

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:09:49

      And the thing that he was trying to do was being sacrificed for the thing which is supposed to facilitate it.

   6. AHAlex Hormozi1:09:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:09:54

      And that's where the you lose more life trying to optimize everything than just living it.

   8. AHAlex Hormozi1:09:59

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:09:59

      The stress of trying to be perfect is killing you more quickly than your imperfections.

   10. AHAlex Hormozi1:10:03

       All right. So I- I'd- I'm glad we came back to optimization, because, um, there's obviously on the extreme, there's, uh, guys like Bryan Johnson with Blueprint, who are trying to, like, live to 200 or live forever. Um, and I- I- I respect that... I respect dedication to anything, always. Um, and interestingly around... I've always been a maximizer. So I've actually not really been an optimizer in my life. It's just like as soon as I have an input-output equation where it's like N equals X, and it's like, and if I want 10X, I do 10N, I'm like, "Great, then can we do 1,000N?" Like, I just wanna do as much of that as a humanly possible. Um, but when we... Like, I love competitors who like optimizing, because I always see it as a weakness, because it's so easy to exploit. It's like, oh, you need your eight hours of sleep, or you need your morning routine, or you- if you don't have your supplements, you're just totally fucked. Or like, "I didn't have my coffee this morning, so I can't function." Like, I love to compete against people like that, because they're so easy to break.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:11:01

       It's fragile.

   12. AHAlex Hormozi1:11:02

       Yeah. And so what happens is the optimizations become superstition.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:11:07

       Correct.

   14. AHAlex Hormozi1:11:08

       And so-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:11:08

       Correct.

   16. AHAlex Hormozi1:11:08

       ... my, my fear around... And I- and maybe I take a more extreme stance on this, but, like, I've always wanted to be able to, with an internet connection and a laptop and a foldout chair, go make money, and always have that as my North Star, that anything else is extra. And I feel like I lose more quickly when I get into this optimization cycle arou- 'Cause I remember years ago, I, um, I bought one of those rings that tracks your sleep, and I kept trying to, like, set sleep PRs, and you can only get so high anyways. And then I started stressing more about not hitting sleep PRs, that I was sleeping worse than when I wasn't tracking it. And so then I was like, "Well, fuck this thing." (laughs) And I slept fine the next night. (laughs) And so, um, obviously microcosm, I'm a big believer in tracking progress in general, but just the idea that we become so overly romantic around these things, that sometimes you just have to break shit, and sometimes you have to be violent, and sometimes when you're on your journey, you're not gonna sleep much, and you're gonna- you're gonna... Like, th- there was a- a two-year period where I did turnarounds for gyms. I flew around the nation. Uh, every month, I would do a new gym. I ate out of gas stations, and I ate gas station food, and I gained weight during that period of time. And it was for then and not forever, and I'm in shape now. And so whatever, who cares? And so, like, I used to tell this when I was selling weight loss to people. I'd say like, "Who cares if you get in shape for six weeks out of 80 years?" And, like, right as they're about to sign up (laughs) for a membership, I was like, "You wanna si-" And th- this is how I would sell longer memberships, but, like, it's also true. It's like, "You wanna sign up for the six weeks, but, like, Susan, like, who cares if you lose 20 pounds and you're still overweight six weeks from now, and then you gain it back the next six weeks and you're still the exact same weight for the rest of your life?" And so I just- I think the absolute dedication to maximization so that it becomes a part of your identity and your character has been one of the outsized returns that I've gotten in my life. And just being absolutely willing to sac- Like, I'm- I'm pretty violent about this, but, like, list all the things that you aren't willing to give up for the dreams that you have, and that is what the person who will beat you is willing to give up.

Episode duration: 3:15:17