Multitasking Is Killing Your Productivity - Thatcher Wine

1. 0:00 – 0:20

   Intro

   1. TWThatcher Wine0:00

      So I think that's where it becomes hard, paying full attention instead of paying partial attention. Paying partial attention is easy. It just doesn't really result in your best work or your most efficiency or really being present with the people you care about that you're hanging out with. (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:16

      Thacher Wine, welcome to the show.

   3. TWThatcher Wine0:18

      Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here.

2. 0:20 – 6:35

   Thatcher’s Multitasking Journey

   1. TWThatcher Wine0:20

   2. CWChris Williamson0:20

      How did you arrive at thinking about multitasking and monotasking? What's the journey that's taken you to think about that?

   3. TWThatcher Wine0:29

      Yeah, so a lot of it came out of my own personal experience. Um, I'm a citizen of the world that we live in, which is super distracting to begin with. Got all this technology constantly asking for our attention, our smartphones, computers, other devices, uh, and then on top of that, I kind of threw in some personal challenges that were of the next level distraction variety. A few years ago, I went through cancer, uh, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. Also, an entrepreneur, had a business for about 20 years called Juniper Books that was very, you know, creatively, um, broad in, in what we do with books and very, you know, demanding of a lot of my attention and creativity and productivity. Um, I'm also a parent. I have two teenagers. And, you know, I wanted to figure out a way to navigate all the things I was going through, figure it out for myself, and, and when I figure it out, I thought I could share with the world what I learned about multitasking and monotasking.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:25

      What was the genesis of that? Was there a point where you were juggling so many things with the family, with the work, with the health? Was there a, a particular sort of period of time in which everything kind of got a bit much?

   5. TWThatcher Wine1:39

      Yeah. I got to the point basically between 2016 and 2019 where I hit the wall. I just, there was, couldn't possibly have been more that I was dealing with at one time, and I was finding it really hard to switch back and forth between what I was going through for my health, for my business, for my family. And, you know, I... What I decided to do was kind of look back at how I'd done it in the past because I'm a pretty productive person, um, and I'm pretty creative, and, and there are, I'm also very ambitious. There are a lot of things I want to do in life. So I kind of looked back, "How have I done this before? When have I not felt overwhelmed by it?" And, you know, one pattern that I recognized was that when I gave my full attention to one thing at a time, I got things done well. People said, you know, "The work is great," and my kids said, you know, "We had fun." Like, you get the feedback from the world, um, that you're doing a good job and, and you don't feel so overwhelmed. But then, you know, once I layered on all these other distractions that I was dealing with, um, it just felt like I always had to be staying up late, getting up early, depriving myself of rest, not exercising, and just taking on more and more and more, and I never felt like I was caught up. So, it was definitely in that three-year period, you know, where I was like, "I gotta find a better way."

   6. CWChris Williamson2:59

      Is there a tension between the amount of work that you can get done and the amount that you focus on single things and the quality of work? Is there a way that all of those are kind of interlinked?

   7. TWThatcher Wine3:11

      Yeah, absolutely. So, so there's a re- bunch of research that's been done on multitasking, and the research basically shows that when we multitask, so when we take on more than one thing at a time, usually of the cognitive variety, so like, you're doing an email and trying to listen in on a conversation, whether it's in Zoom or, or something else, um, we tend to make more mistakes, and things take longer. Part of that is due to the fact that we just can't multitask. What, what we call multitasking is actually task switching, so we're going from one thing to another. We're making it look like we're doing it all at the same time. We like to look busy, right? That's sort of an American trait, especially. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson3:51

      But what people mean by what, when they s-

   9. TWThatcher Wine3:54

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson3:54

       ... think, what they think they mean by multitasking is parallel processing.

   11. TWThatcher Wine3:58

       Yeah. Parallel processing or it could be serial processing, and, you know, you, you do one thing, then you do the next thing, then you switch back to the other thing, back and forth, and back and forth, and back and forth. The parallel processing might be more like background tasking and primary tasking, where, you know, somebody might be listening to this podcast while folding their laundry, right? Most people can do that. But can I have this conversation and also be working on a presentation or a response to a client? No, I can't do it. And I could pretend to do it, but I'd actually be switching back and forth and basically cognitively overloading my brain, and causing a lot of stress. Studies have been done that show it takes on average 23 minutes to switch from one kind of cognitive heavy task to another.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:43

       Mm-hmm.

   13. TWThatcher Wine4:45

       Because I, like, if I tried to go from this conversation to my work, I'd need a little time to figure out, like, "Where was I? What's this all about? What are my goals?" Like, reviewing it for mistakes and all that. So, we don't often give ourselves that break, that 23 minutes, and it causes us to get overwhelmed and stressed out and burnt out, to be honest.

   14. CWChris Williamson5:05

       What's the root of multitasking? Is this a perennial human problem? Uh, the-

   15. TWThatcher Wine5:10

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson5:11

       ... philosophers of ancient Athens struggling with this as well?

   17. TWThatcher Wine5:14

       Yeah. I mean, for sure. It's definitely been around for thousands of years. Part of it is the, um... And that's an understatement, but it's, part of it is the design of the human brain. Like, we're supposed to take in what's happening in our environment, be aware of the, the dangers. There's a wild animal off in the distance. Like, I gotta heighten my awareness and take care of my family. That's an ancient form of multitasking, right? Another one is like, I'm sitting here, but my mind is wandering. So, can I bring it back to the present moment through prayer or meditation? Those practices have been around for a very long time. Modern multitasking, I think, dates to, like, the 1960s when computers were introduced, and we started to think about how they could multitask processes, switching from one application to another. So, like, the 1980s with Windows, like, you, everybody visualized it at their desktop computer. "Oh, I can go from Excel to Word."... you know, and my computer can run both applications at the same time. Well, if humans designed those computer programs, why can't we do the same thing? Why can't we teach ourself to multitask? And then a lot of, like, employers started, you know, kinda asking, "Can you multitask?" Like, "We'd love to have you on the team and we're gonna throw all this stuff at you." And then it became kind of glorified and a lot of people brag about their ability to multitask. But it's not actually good for us, and it's not something we're particularly good at.

3. 6:35 – 18:09

   Why is Multitasking Bad?

   1. TWThatcher Wine6:35

   2. CWChris Williamson6:35

      Why is it not good for us? I understand why it's not something that we're good at.

   3. TWThatcher Wine6:40

      Yeah. So it causes, like, a physical and mental strain on our bodies that we're just not designed for. Um, so I mentioned the 23-minute statistic a few minutes ago. So when we don't give ourself the time to switch from one thing to another, we get stressed out. We feel overwhelmed. We can't quite put our finger on it, um, but we... you know, there's a, a real bottleneck in our cognitive ability. So, like, you'll have people these days, I hear a lot, like, "I don't enjoy my hobbies anymore. I used to enjoy reading. I used to enjoy biking." But, you know, the fact that we always bring our phones with us everywhere, and a lot of people do something, like make a call, scroll through social media, it creates a multitasking bottleneck in our brains. So we can't, like, have that feeling that we used to have of being in the present moment, enjoying what we used to enjoy right now, right here, and with the people we're with.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:37

      Yeah, it really does feel like we're not immersed in experiences as much. You know, I kind of... I critique myself all day about this. I'm in a taxi journey. Good example, I was in a taxi journey to go for dinner last night, and I'm sat in the taxi and I'm driving through South Congress. South Austin's really nice. Got downtown coming toward me. I can see the capitol building sort of through the dark front windscreen next to the Uber driver. And I was thinking, "This is really, really nice." And I'm just watching, but I had to consciously think about not picking up my phone to check if, oh, maybe there's an email that I can get to right now, which is gonna make tomorrow a little bit easier because then I won't, I won't have that email to do. Um, but even that, even though I decided not to task switch, the ambient sort of parallel processing world or multiple, uh, multitasking world, even the thought of that took me out of the present moment-

   5. TWThatcher Wine8:33

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson8:33

      ... and being immersed in it as well.

   7. TWThatcher Wine8:35

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson8:35

      So, you know, there's like, there's gradations of how distracted you can be when you're doing stuff, but I really, really value that memory. You know, thinking back about last night and seeing the capitol building coming in and it's cool. And there aren't s- so many skyscrapers in Newcastle where I'm from, so it's a, a different sort of view for me to see, and I really value that. Um, but it's so easy to avoid it. Did... Have you thought... I'm gonna guess that you must have realized that boredom plays a, a pretty big role here. That a lot of the time what people are doing with multitasking is probably sedating themselves from the boredom of one thing with another thing.

   9. TWThatcher Wine9:10

      100%. Yeah. So, you know, what was going on in that, that car ride, you know, is that we've trained ourself or we've been trained by technology and our devices, and despite the fast-paced modern world we live in, that we never have to be bored. As soon as anybody gets bored these days, like, our tendency is to reach for our phone. As soon as we feel like, "Oh, I've, I've got whatever I'm doing right now down, I'm gonna layer something else on." So it's, it's just a habit and we have to go easy on ourselves that, like, it's not our fault that we're reaching for our phone. Like, there's billions of dollars and lots of people on the other side of that convincing us that that's what we should do. Um, what I... The, the book, The 12 Monotasks that I wrote, um, there's a chapter in there called Getting There, and it, it's all about, you know, how to pay attention to the journey, whether that's your commute or you're g- you're in a new city or you're, um, you know, going on a trip and seeing something new, like... And just sit with the fact that, you know, look out the window. Pay attention to the things you've, you've never seen before or something. You know, if you've taken this ride 1,000 times, maybe you will notice something new or maybe you'll just, like, monotask your boredom and be okay with that and, and then not reach for your phone so quickly in the future. Um, there's also, like, this big impulse to be like, "Oh, that's really cool. I have to take a picture." And it's like, no, you were there. You... (laughs) It's okay. You know, the experience was great. You remember it, you had that feeling, and just the, like, the act of even thinking about taking a picture and layering on something else, like, can really take us out of that moment and that feeling of, of happiness and joy of being where we are.

   10. CWChris Williamson10:53

       What technology has done... And not to lay all of the problems of multitasking at the feet of technology, right? Like, this is, as it seems, a perennial desire for humans to constantly rid themselves of boredom by any means necessary, but it's driven the price of removing boredom essentially down to zero.

   11. TWThatcher Wine11:12

       Hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:12

       It's made it, it's made it frictionless for us to be able to get rid of that at any time. So at the slightest sign of discomfort, what we do is we then escape that. We're waiting in line somewhere, we're on a journey somewhere. And for the people... Uh, pretty much everyone has some form of productive work that they can do on their phone, even if that's just answering personal emails or, or swiping stuff as unread. So you can always... There's a kernel of truth in it, right? That, well, this is productive. This is me being useful, and this journey's going to happen anyway, you know? I'm going to, to town. I might as well use it for something useful. Um, what is it about monotasking that makes it so hard then? Because when you think about it, it sounds like it would take more effort to do two things at once instead of one, and usually the human system's pretty good at finding ways to be lazy. So it's kind of counterintuitive that monotasking is difficult.

   13. TWThatcher Wine12:06

       That's a great observation. Um, and I, and I talk about that a little bit in the book. Like, if, if it were easy...... and obvious, it would be a very short book. And, and I wouldn't have that much to say. (laughs) Um, but it's actually, it is really hard and anybody that's tried to do one thing at a time instead of multitasking, you know that. So, but I think it, also think it's really simple. That's one of the greatest compliments I get is like, "This is so simple yet powerful." Like, it should be simple. We should just be able to decide like, "Hey, I'm doing five things at once. I'm gonna pick one, I'm gonna do it with my full attention, then I'm gonna move on to number two." The reality is that, like, multitasking has become very pleasurable in some respects, like if you think about media multitasking, like you sit on the couch with your phone, you're texting, you're watching Netflix, you've got your computer on, you know, maybe occasionally popping in and checking an email. Um, it, I think everybody can relate to that, like, you just relax and, and, like, you don't, you're not really getting much done. You're not paying full attention to anything. So I think that's where it becomes hard, paying full attention instead of deci- paying partial attention. Paying partial attention is easy, it just doesn't really result in your best work or your most efficiency or really being present with the people you, you care about, that you're hanging out with. Um, so I think it's pleasurable, I think it's habitual, you know? So, like, everything in the world is just glorified multitasking culture, made you think you could do it and you're going to be celebrated if you do it, and here are some, you know, celebrities and famous people that do it on, you know, run their fashion empire in between, you know, playing tennis matches or whatever. Um, so it's hard and I think we, once you do the work and you, you get more accustomed to the feeling of what it feels like to do one thing at a time and you recognize like, "Hey, this isn't something I've felt in a while," then that becomes more rewarding than the multitasking. Then you start to recognize, like what you recognized in the, in the car, like, "Hey, I'm not paying full attention here and I'm not enjoying this really cool view. Like, what if I could do that?" And then you, you do it y- and then you, like, start to make more of those moments in your life. More practice you do it, the better at it you become.

   14. CWChris Williamson14:24

       I think that very much the best work that we do is when we're focused on a single thing. And beyond the fact that we can't really multitask and it's making our work take longer and it's not as psychologically fulfilling, I think the main difference that I've noticed with my friends that are able to go sort of hard and deep with one particular task is the level of output in terms of the, the, um, quality of the work, the level of creativity or ingenuity or, um, just th- they are able to get to a higher level by focusing on one thing. And the most important thing when you think about what you're competing with everybody else on, you're not v- you're in a v- very rarely in a job are you competing w- on the volume of work that you can put out. Like, the best pitch that wins a new client over is not the pitch with the most words or the pitch that's been sent the most times or the, the company that puts the most ideas across. It's usually the company that has the single best idea. The person that gets the job isn't the person with the longest CV, it's the person with the best CV, with the highest caliber of work. And increasingly, you see this in, in the world of podcasting or YouTube, right? Like, the best YouTubers and podcasters on the planet, they're not the people that put out the most videos. Now, there might be some correlation between consistency of content and, um, how popular they are in the market, but it's not about that. It's about the fact that when you sit down and listen to whoever your favorite podcaster is, you know that that's going to be a really, really high-quality podcast. So you don't care about the fact th- like, someone could live stream their life 24 hours a day, but if it's not good, it doesn't matter, and it's going to be beaten by the guy that does one amazing hour of work per week because he's fully focused on it. So I think that there needs to be a, a- an understanding, a sort of a cultural change so that people realize that you genuinely aren't competing with other people based on the volume of work that you put out, you're competing with it based on the quality of the work that you put out.

   15. TWThatcher Wine16:23

       Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear that, you know, if I'm not creating this huge volume of work and making it and telling people about all the things I'm doing and all the side hustles I have and all, you know, the accomplishments, like, then I'm somehow failing. But, but you're absolutely right, it's, it's about quality, not quantity, almost all success in life. And, and that comes from, you know, I reference in the book Cal Newport and Deep Work. Like, you have to, like, focus, do your, y- when you get into the space of, like, deep work, um, and you learn how you do your best deep work, like, then you can do it. And you can do it more often and you can be more successful and you can take on a lot of things in life. Like, so, I have a business, I, you know, I'm a parent, written a couple books. Like, it's a lot of output. The only way I can do it is by doing one thing at a time. I can't write a new book while I'm, you know, talking to a customer on the phone. Um, but I can do both in life and I, and I don't think that people should, you know, scale back their expectations of what they do. Um, I think they should just do them one at a time. And, uh, and I think there's a lot of fear, you know, at the beginning when people are so used to multitasking, it's like, "Ah, I, I can't, I can't slow down, you know, then I won't be as productive. And, and what if I slow down and then, like, I can't get back up to speed if I want to." You know? So there's, like, any, making any habitual change like that, like, it takes some courage to take the first step, give it a try, and then realize, "Oh, I'm actually gonna get more done. I'm gonna do better quality work. I'm gonna be more connected and I'm gonna be better at, like, everything in life. I'm gonna be a better listener. And that's not just gonna help me get the customer, but have a better relationship with a partner."

4. 18:09 – 27:19

   Experiencing Cancer

   1. TWThatcher Wine18:10

   2. CWChris Williamson18:10

      How did cancer change your view on this stuff?

   3. TWThatcher Wine18:13

      Yeah, I mean, cancer changed everything in my life. I mean, I, I was a v- I was a healthy person beforehand, very active, and then discovered I had three tumors in my chest and had to go through pretty intensive chemo. Uh, about 100 hours a week, uh, times six rounds. Um, so it was pretty grueling and, and what I didn't know is that that was just gonna be the beginning. When I went through chemo, everybody was like, "Oh, chemo's so hard. You're gonna be sick, you're gonna be weak, you're gonna lose weight. You're not gonna want to eat." Um, nobody really told me how long it was gonna recov- take to recover from it and get my energy back. But it took, like, close to four years. And, and part of that was because I pushed myself too hard while I was going through treatment to keep up with work, try to, you know, ride my bike. Afterwards, I, like, tried to keep up appearances. You know, I was, like, the really hardworking, creative, optimistic guy. And I was like, "I feel like crap," um, and I didn't want people to know that. And I, I was like, "Ugh, if I just get a good night's sleep, if I just, like, you know, take a day off, if I just get this work done, maybe I'll feel better." And nothing worked. And it really just took a lot of time, a lot of, like, micro-adjustments. And so I think it gave me this perspective that, like, you know, what if I never get back to my full strength? What if I have to slow down? What if I can't pretend? Like, what if I can't fake it till I make it? (laughs) Um, and so I, I made a lot of adjustments, like, in my mindset, in my, like, diet, in my daily routine, uh, and the, like, uh, where I gave my attention because, like, that was the one thing, even though my body didn't feel good, um, and even though I was exhausted, like, I could give my attention to things and, and choose where to apply that. And knowing that it was kind of precious and limited, um, you know, I decided to, like, really become a keen observer about my attention, my focus, distractions in the world, and try to manage them a little bit better, um, in order to, to get more done.

   4. CWChris Williamson20:23

      It's wild that 600 hours of chemotherapy still wasn't enough to slow down your desire to multitask-

   5. TWThatcher Wine20:30

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson20:30

      ... in the first place.

   7. TWThatcher Wine20:32

      Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I... (laughs) Yeah, no, it's a good observation. Everybody said, like, "Slow down," you know, "Take care of yourself." You know, "You'll have time to do, you know, whatever you're trying to do on your laptop at the, you know, the infusion center later." Um, but no, I didn't listen because I think I thought... Like, I did a lot of work observing myself, like, on the side effects and kind of making those micro-adjustments I talked about, like, you know, take aloe vera juice for, you know, my stomach soreness and whatever. Like, I had a million tips and, and tricks that I'd figured out and learned from other cancer patients and, and practitioners, um, but I still didn't want to slow down. Yeah. I mean, that's... And I could, like, I, you know, relate to other people in this world, whether they're going through cancer or something else, they're just trying to get their startup off the ground while working a full-time job. Like, it's life. Everybody's going through something, and, um, you know, there's a lesson to be learned in all of it. And, and I think we just always have to, you know, learn from it and make some adjustments to optimize, you know, our happiness and our stress levels and our performance.

   8. CWChris Williamson21:42

      One of the things I've been thinking about recently is, um, a hourglass-shaped or a, a, a bottleneck shape that a lot of journeys and sort of passion projects that then perhaps become businesses or, you know, relationships that then get a little bit more serious, that they tend to follow. So, this is complete bro science, s- so just bear with me.

   9. TWThatcher Wine22:02

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson22:02

       Um, at the beginning, when you do something, it's usually new. The novelty motivates you. Uh, it's casual, so there isn't that much pressure. This, you know, let's run this for both re- relationship and passion project that becomes business, right? All of these things are true for both of those. There's little pressure. There's no sunk cost fallacy. There's no investment. You don't feel like it's part of your, um, identity. People don't really care that much about you doing it. It's just a thing that you're doing for fun. Over time, the level of pressure and scrutiny that you and other people place on you, the amount of investment that you have, the amount of work that you need to do, the amount of tasks and different areas that you need to try and bring together in an effective manner, those start to ramp up. But you haven't got to the stage yet where you've done it for so long that you can either delegate control to somebody else or kind of operationalize some of the common challenges that you face so that you become easier at... It becomes easier to you. So you go from the wide neck, right? It's easy, casual, l- little less pressure, to the narrowing in the middle section, which is when you've got more pressure, more workloads, more tasks to try and do, a greater sense of obligation to the people around you and to the people that you work with. But then I do think that out the other side of that, you can actually get yourself to a place, especially in a business, where maybe you've recruited an assistant, and maybe there's a manager now, and maybe you've operationalized stuff, and maybe you've got a social media team in to come and look after stuff. And maybe you've got somebody in that's going to do finance, and someone's gonna do marketing, and you don't have to do your own schedule anymore. And it actually... It does follow a very odd sort of curve shape. It, it goes from easy to difficult to easy again. However, what you realize is that the strategy that got you from easy to difficult was putting your nose against the grindstone, was going, "Right, I'm gonna go as hard as possible. I'm going to do everything. I'm gonna be across everything." And every business person that's listening knows how difficult it is to let go of control, to delegate, and to relinquish the tasks that you usually do to new people because you know that they're going to get it wrong at least a little bit more than you do right now, and letting go is, it makes you terrified. So a lot of the time, you don't ever allow yourself to get out the other side of that hourglass bottleneck.... to find the easy stuff that's on the other side, or in a relationship as well. You know, you're going to have... Most disagreements in relationships are going to center around probably five things. You know, it's going to be a consistent thing that happens, you choosing to do one thing instead of another, you choosing to not do this thing instead of that. Those are the disagreements that are fundamentally going to happen, so operationalize those as well. But if you don't allow yourself to be able to come up with the solutions to delegate control in a business or to try and, I guess, break down those challenges in relationships, you just stay in that middle section. So yeah, that's my, that's my COD psychology, uh-

   11. TWThatcher Wine24:49

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson24:49

       ... solution for you.

   13. TWThatcher Wine24:50

       Yeah. No, I love it, and I can totally relate to that. Um, you know, so I've had my business, Juniper Books, for 21 years now. A- and not to disappoint any, you know, entrepreneurs, people starting up companies, like it, it never really gets... It gets easier and then it gets harder. I mean, I don't know if it's one hourglass shape or it's like-

   14. CWChris Williamson25:10

       Multiple.

   15. TWThatcher Wine25:11

       ... multiple.

   16. CWChris Williamson25:11

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   17. TWThatcher Wine25:12

       Because I'm going through a lot of that right now. I'm... You know, especially as I'm trying to, like, work more on promoting monotasking and sharing the message with the world. Like, I'm trying to delegate more and more. I have 20 employees. Every one of those people does something now that I used to do for myself. So I've got like 20X, you know, my capability or whatever, which is awesome. Like that's where you want to get to. But then like, you know, I gotta get another, like, 5% off my plate. Gotta find the right person, gotta train them, um, you know, but e- once I get them up to speed, like, then I'm gonna help, like, manage them to build their team. So yeah, so not to disappoint anybody out there that they're gonna be on the easy street at some point. Um, but yeah, you have to work on it and you figure out a lot of things along the way. Um, and I do think it's true, um, you know, with relationships and our personal life and our hobbies, you know, it's like, yeah, you can learn how to do a new sport and then you can get better at it, you know, and then you have your setbacks and then you, you know, work on it again. And it's life, and I think we should go... we should be realistic about the learning process and the ups and downs that we're gonna encounter. A lot of people, like, look at a lot of, like, the stories you read in the, the press, you know, like, "Oh, so-and-so, you know, raised a billion dollars, sold their company," whatever. Like-

   18. CWChris Williamson26:32

       Whilst being an endurance racer and building-

   19. TWThatcher Wine26:34

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson26:34

       ... a family and doing all of this other shit.

   21. TWThatcher Wine26:35

       Yeah. I mean, those are the stories that are great for the press to tell. It's not, you know, what... For every one of those, there's, you know, 10,000 other people, um, and a lot of them, like, you'll never hear about and they've figured it out and they're running their businesses day-to-day and they have a great life. And like that's, I think, what most of us should aspire to. Um, yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson26:56

       There's a, uh, quote that I saw the other day that says, "You want everybody to know your name and nobody to know your face."

   23. TWThatcher Wine27:03

       Hm.

   24. CWChris Williamson27:03

       And I think that that kind of just highlights the people that have that huge outlier success, like that, they're outliers by definition, as opposed to the people that just iterate steady away on something that works. So given the fact that you have your, uh, book

5. 27:19 – 39:14

   Advantages of Reading

   1. CWChris Williamson27:19

      company plus you're an author, perhaps unsurprisingly, you said that one of the most important monotasks was to read.

   2. TWThatcher Wine27:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:24

      So what's the advantage of reading, especially given the fact that a lot of people that I know talk about reading, but what they mean is listening to books on Audible? So their consumption of books is actually the same way as you would do a podcast because maybe they, they struggle to sit down, uh, and focus on a book for a long period of time.

   4. TWThatcher Wine27:44

      So I've thought a lot about reading 'cause I've been in the book business for so long and I've thought about like, you know, how do we... what, what benefit does it provide us besides just, like, entertainment or information? So we can get information from an audiobook or podcast. Um, and you know, what I've d- what I came to the conclusion about is that, like, reading really helps us build our focus so that... and then we can apply that focus to other parts of our life. And when I looked around at successful people like Bill Gates and Oprah Winfrey and Warren Buffett, like they're big readers. Some of the busiest people in the world are some of the biggest readers. Like how do they have time for that? Why do they bother? Like couldn't they just be going and like starting more companies and making more money? A- and what I saw is that there's a correlation between, you know, the habits of successful people, their ability to pay attention, and then their ability to be successful in life. And so I think what reading does for us... And, and I do think it's great, like however you get your books and information is great. That's better than not reading, so. But I do think there's something special about the printed page. When you bring your- when you hold a book in your hands and like takes up space and has like a weight to it, you're like, you're in one place. Um, your attention looking at the page is in one place too. And it goes, you know, down one page and then up to the next one. And people, like, create these spatial maps in their minds of like where they read something, where they were. T- they may not be aware of this, where certain things happen in the book. You have that feeling like, "How far into it am I?" My, you know... "I'm about halfway through? Am I near the end? Oh shoot. Like I don't want the story to end." Like real readers can relate to that. And I think all that's good for us and I think it's a feature, not a flaw, that we can't multitask while we're reading. It's one of like the true mul- monotasks that I, you know, came up with this idea about monotasking for. It's like you can only read a book while you're reading a book on paper. Audiobooks and Kindles and stuff, like you can multitask. Um, and I think that's a good thing. And I think if we read for a little bit every day, like it strengthens our, what I call our monotasking muscles and our ability to pay attention. And then we can apply that to our work, to our relationships, to our hobbies.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:01

      You know what it's like to read a paragraph and then to realize that you've been distracted and someone could hold a gun to your head and say, "Tell me what happened in that last-"

   6. TWThatcher Wine30:10

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson30:10

      ... paragraph." And you're like, "Dude, I'm, I'm sorry." And your eyes have tracked it-

   8. TWThatcher Wine30:14

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:15

      ... all the way. And that's so fascinating the way that our focus works, the way that we can be doing something kind of passively and yet our mind can be completely somewhere else. And then we kind of... you catch yourself having not been where you were-

   10. TWThatcher Wine30:29

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:29

       ... which is such a bizarre sentence-

   12. TWThatcher Wine30:31

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:31

       ... to say.

   14. TWThatcher Wine30:33

       I mean, that's mu- that's multitasking, right? So yeah, you're pretending to read the book, you're monotasking, but you're thinking and your brain is somewhere else. So that's multitasking. There's nothing wrong with it. I mean, yeah, you're not... You have to go back and reread that paragraph. That's fine. That happens to everybody, even, like, the strongest, most focused people in the world. But, um, you know, I think just having that awareness that, like, that's essentially what's happening, you know, with everything else we're doing in life. You know, like if I was having this conversation and thinking about lunch or something, like, it's the same thing. It's not, like, terrible for us, you know? I might not, you know, be as... speaking as clearly as, as I struggle to find my words. I'm like, (laughs) like, "Maybe I am thinking about lunch." But, um, you know, I think it's just like having that awareness, going easier on ourselves, and then saying, like, "What if I did give my full attention to what I'm doing right now?" Either the book, this conversation, the walk that I might go on after this. Like, it's different, you know? And, and I think it's not only good for what we do in the moment, but it, like, really strengthens our monotasking muscles that have atrophied thanks to technology and a lot of other stuff. And then we can, we can apply them, you know, and then be more successful and have more fun.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:45

       What would you advise to people who perhaps are the audiobook connoisseur that I've just mentioned, but are struggling to sit down? They sit down to read a book and-

   16. TWThatcher Wine31:55

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:56

       ... they can't... They can barely even get through half a page before they want to fidget and move around and then leave it.

   18. TWThatcher Wine32:01

       Yeah, I mean, I'd say it's, you know, start where you are and it's, it's not one thing or the other. So I listen to audiobooks, um, but I also read a lot of books. I've started... So I think, like, any amount that you could spend reading on paper daily is good for you. Start with five minutes. In the book, I talk about 20 minutes as being like an optimal amount. And start with something easy. Reread a book you love in childhood. I don't care if it's Dr. Seuss. Like, start with something on paper. Um, I love to reread, like, JD Salinger and Kurt Vonnegut. I've got a bunch of those books on my shelf behind me. Like, they're pretty fast, you know, going, easy reads. Um, don't start with War and Peace, right? Like, don't... Or a medical journal or something like that.

   19. CWChris Williamson32:42

       Red Rising. I'm telling you-

   20. TWThatcher Wine32:44

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson32:44

       ... if you need a book-

   22. TWThatcher Wine32:45

       Yep.

   23. CWChris Williamson32:45

       ... to get into, get Pierce Brown, Red Rising is the one.

   24. TWThatcher Wine32:49

       Yep. We, we make a, like, a special edition set of Red Rising No way. ... at ... books. Yeah, and it's... Yeah, it's one of our most popular offerings. It's great.

   25. CWChris Williamson32:56

       Dude, he's, he's absolutely-

   26. TWThatcher Wine32:57

       Yep.

   27. CWChris Williamson32:57

       ... crushed it. So I put a-

   28. TWThatcher Wine32:58

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson32:59

       I, I'm going to go on a complete segue. I put a tweet out the other day saying I was struggling to find something as good as, uh, Pierce Brown's Red Rising or Patrick Rothfuss's, uh, The Name of the Wind, uh-

   30. TWThatcher Wine33:11

       Okay.
6. 39:14 – 43:48

   Why Listening is a Skill

   1. TWThatcher Wine39:14

   2. CWChris Williamson39:14

      Reframing the experience and what you tell yourself about it as well, you know, if you do get distracted. This is something that I struggle with. If I spend, you know, an hour accidentally falling down some YouTube rabbit hole-

   3. TWThatcher Wine39:27

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson39:27

      ... and before I know it, that's an hour of my day gone. And I think, "Oh, you idiot. That you had so much stuff to do. And look, you've just spent the last hour learning about some crypto NFT scam that Jake Paul's gonna get sued for," or something like-

   5. TWThatcher Wine39:41

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson39:41

      ... something that you're never ever going to use. Uh, so I've been working a lot on trying to reframe the stories that I tell myself about my multitasking and monotasking. Did you come across information foraging and the theory of information foraging during your research?

   7. TWThatcher Wine39:57

      Um, I mean, I, I don't think I'm specifically familiar with that term, but I can imagine what it is, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson40:02

      Yeah. The, so the, it was Sam Harris had a neuroscientist on that was talking about parallel processing and multitasking, and he said that, um, in the same way that squirrels are nut foragers, uh, humans are information foragers. And for pretty much all of our history, the people that had the most information were the ones that had the biggest advantage. And then at some point within the last 100 years of our evolution, it's switched from the person that has the most information to the person that's able to discern the information the best and actually stay focused on the most relevant infor- information. So he uses this example, there's a, a mathematical formula that you can use to look at how many nuts are left in a tree and how far away the next tree is to work out the likelihood of a squirrel leaving that tree to go to the next one. Because there's a cost that you need to pay to leave the tree and go to the next tree, but if the number of nuts that are in this tree start to diminish so much that the effort is worth changing. So he applied that to humans and information foraging, and he said that one of the problems we have with social media and technology is that the friction from going from tree to tree has essentially dropped to zero.

   9. TWThatcher Wine41:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson41:11

       And this is one of those things where a lot of the time you'll read, you'll see an article that looks interesting on Twitter, click on it, read the title, read the subheading, click off it, go back to Twitter to find something else. Like you've just selected an article that you thought to yourself would be interesting to read, and you managed to get through the first paragraph and then, "Oh, yeah, enough. Like I'll jump to another tree." Um, so yeah, I think being aware of that, being conscious and mindful of that compulsion to go somewhere else is, is pretty important. And also what you were talking about earlier on, the fact that when you're having a conversation with somebody like this, not being distracted, not trying to think about other things. I think that the prescription for people to try and have a, uh, a private podcast with one of their friends for, you know, half an hour or an hour per week talking about something in a rigorous, focused way without distractions, it's so therapeutic and it makes you such a better conversationalist.

   11. TWThatcher Wine42:05

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson42:05

       Because you have the skill to be able to care about what the other person says. And you talk about this as well, right? That listening is actually a skill that people can develop and that they can monotask.

   13. TWThatcher Wine42:16

       Yeah. There's a whole chapter on listening in the book, uh, and one of my tips, um, I don't know if it's in the book or not, um, to be honest, but is listen as if you're recording a podcast, you know? Listen like it's uncomfortable. (laughs) That you're paying so much attention the other person is like, "Hey, what's going on here? Like you normally you're looking at your phone."

   14. CWChris Williamson42:34

       (laughs)

   15. TWThatcher Wine42:34

       "What happened?" Um, you know, that's, that's what we should do. We don't have to do it in every single conversation, but we should have the skills to do it. Nothing in our adult lives and, and maybe nothing in our, you know, childhood either these days, like teaches us how to do that and rewards us for doing that. I mean, yeah, you might have friends that are like, "I wanna hang out with that guy. He's, he listens." Um-... but, you know, but ... And you're kind of, sort of rewarded, like, because I think listening is important to sales and customer service and the success of businesses. Like, how well you listen to your customers and change your products and your marketing strategy. But it, nobody talks about it really as listening. And so, we don't, like, really measure it. We don't really tell people to develop that skill necessarily. It's super important, especially in relationships, um, you know, as a parent. Like, y- there's so much ... There's some things that are said, a lot of things that aren't said, and if you're multitasking, you're not gonna hear either. You might hear what's said. You're definitely not gonna hear what's not said in between the lines or, uh, the words or whatever, if you're just thinking, looking at your phone or thinking about something else. Um, so I think it's super rewarding. I think we should do more of it. Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson43:46

       What about walking?

   17. TWThatcher Wine43:47

       So

7. 43:48 – 49:08

   Benefits of Regular Walking

   1. TWThatcher Wine43:48

      yeah, so there's a chapter on walking in the book, and, and that kind of grew out of this idea that like, you know, we, we tend to combine our walks with other stuff, whether it's like, "I'm walking for exercise," or, "I'm walking ... I'm gonna make a phone call," or, "I'm gonna take pictures." Like, what if we just went for a walk? What if we just like, you know, opened our eyes, like looked up instead of down at our phones, and, you know, saw new things? I'm looking out the window here. It's like gorgeous Colorado setting, super bright, and I look super pale (laughs) as a result. Um, but I should probably get out and get some sunshine. Uh, but you know, see things you've never seen before. Hear sounds you've never heard before. Like if you're walking around a city, you might smell some things you never smelled before, and that's okay. Hopefully it's like a bakery or something. Um, but like, it makes us alive to, you know, absorb all this cool stuff in the world and be grateful for it, to be honest, and, and practice that ability, like not to reach for our phone, um, and just be a little bit bored maybe. I don't think walking is boring personally, but some people might think it is and they might be like, "I better go for a run." Um, but I think just like slowing down, enjoying the walk is, is very therapeutic.

   2. CWChris Williamson45:01

      Yeah. I, um, I ... Morning walk is the most important thing that I do as a part of my day. If I, if I get that in, even if it's just five minutes, the rest of the day is usually, like noticeably better, as opposed to the days when I've woken up too late or I've got too much to do and I, I can't fit it in. Even with that though, I find myself, I've been tempted to do, uh, diction, uh, pronunciation exercises while I walk or I'm gonna do ... I'm gonna spend the entire walk thinking of all different things that I'm grateful for. So I set myself a challenge, and that is still I'm finding a way to ... I've left my phone. Don't take my phone out on a morning, but I've still managed to find a way to multitask a, a walk which is specifically there to be this lovely oasis of calm first thing in the morning. And then, there's me doing, "Sinful Caesar sipped his snifter, seized his knees, and sneezed," first thing in the morning (laughs) as I'm walking around, scaring all of the dogs and cats.

   3. TWThatcher Wine45:56

      Very impressive.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:57

      Yeah.

   5. TWThatcher Wine45:57

      I mean, one ... You know, I mentioned the, the 23-minute statistic earlier about like switching from one task to another and how long it takes to prepare, you know, to get into the next task. So one way I think about walks sometimes is like if you're gonna lose that 23 minutes anyway, if you're gonna be sitting at your desk and you'll be like, "Okay, what do I have to do? How do I, you know, get into the mind space for that?" Like, maybe you should just go for a walk and, and use that as your reset time, 23 minutes. It's like, if you're gonna lose it, get up, do something, clear your head. And it's, it's actually ... I don't think it's that you should never multitask on the walks. You can use them purposefully like what you're doing, because that, you could argue like the thing that you're doing in the foreground is actually-

   6. CWChris Williamson46:41

      Yes. Yes.

   7. TWThatcher Wine46:42

      ... your exercise.

   8. CWChris Williamson46:42

      Yes.

   9. TWThatcher Wine46:42

      And the background is just you're walking. Um, so I think it's good to combine, kind of like your reading. It's like combine different types of walks. Have one where you're like doing nothing but paying attention to like the ground underneath your feet. Another one maybe you decide like, "I'm gonna like think of a new idea for this project." Um, and then other ones like you'll, you'll go out, you know, just planning to clear your head, and then you're like the most creative idea will pop into your mind, um, because you decided to do nothing. And if you had decided to do something, like it wouldn't have showed up. And I think that's a really cool experience, especially for creatives and entrepreneurs, yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson47:19

       That highlights the difference between walking and reading, right? That with reading, it's always a front brain task. You can't do something else whilst you read, whereas with walking, it's automated. Same thing goes for driving. You've got a, a, a part in there about getting there, right? Commutes and journeys and trips and stuff. Most people that are competent drivers are able to do something else mentally whilst they're navigating traffic with their hands and feet. So, that means that there are different ways, I think, to probably look at monotasking and multitasking. I would probably classify being on a Zoom call whilst writing an email as a different sort of multitask to being in a car whilst thinking about something for work or being on a walk whilst listening to a podcast. If there's something that you can outsource to system two, meanwhile, system one is, uh, sorry, to system one, meanwhile system two is actually active doing something else, I think that's quite different.

   11. TWThatcher Wine48:14

       Yeah, and I think we ... Like just having the self-awareness to think about those things as being different and not lumping them all together. Like, "Oh, I have to multitask all the time, otherwise I'll never get anything done," or, "I can't monotask," or, or, "I can only monotask." Like, there are different subtleties within it, like you were just talking about. There's the background tasking and primary tasking, the driving, making a phone call, laundry, podcast. And then there's like the cognitive heavy tasks. And if you can learn, you know, what you can and you can't do, then you can make better decisions about what stresses you out, what makes you productive, what makes you happy, what makes you connected. You can decide like, "I d- I better not even take my phone out while I'm out on a date, because I know that like my brain is gonna look at it and I'm gonna be distracted and she's not gonna wanna go out again."... so I think it can be really helpful in all

8. 49:08 – 57:42

   Learning & Teaching

   1. TWThatcher Wine49:08

      situations.

   2. CWChris Williamson49:09

      What about learning and, uh, teaching?

   3. TWThatcher Wine49:12

      So, yeah, so those are two chapters in the book, and then to a certain extent, they're, you know, two sides of the same thing. Um, but, you know, I definitely believe in, you know, learning, continuous learning throughout our lives. I, I, like, have a lot of hobbies, and I'm (laughs) trying to find more time to, to add additional ones, learn new instruments and take up new sports and all that. And I think having, like, a beginner's mind, um, if you're familiar with that, like, it's a Buddhist term about, like, I'm not a know-it-all about anything, even stuff I've been doing for 21 years. You know, there's always something to learn. And opening yourself up to the possibility and then monotasking the learning, right? So saying, like, "I'm learning right now." Like, "I'm learning how to, you know, talk about monotasking more- better." "I'm learning about, you know, how to manage my time," whatever. And then, you know, make those self-observations that we've talked about throughout the podcast, like, and then apply the lessons. Don't feel like you have to do what everybody else does. Don't feel like you have to learn how they learn, um, or do what they do. Find what works for you. And the other side of it is teaching. Like, the teaching chapter, people shouldn't skip it because they're like, "Oh, I'm not a professional teacher. I don't, you know, stand in front of a classroom and teach people." We're all teachers all the time. You know, I might teach my kids something just by them seeing me do it, or a complete stranger might see how I, like, talk to the waiter in a restaurant, um, and be like, "Oh, that's, you know, that was very respectful and empathetic and kind," and, and then they'll learn from it. Um, so, but, but on the other hand, like if you really, like somebody asks you, "Can you teach me how to play that song on guitar?" You know, then I really have to think about, "Huh," like, "how do I do it? How do I teach it?" And it, like, creates this whole, like, next-level monotasking that, like, brings your focus to what you know. How can you transmit it to somebody else? How are they receiving it as a learner? Should I make some adjustments? Um, and you can basically, you know, you can develop mastery of things that you weren't- didn't know you were an expert at necessarily, but somebody else thought you could teach it. Or maybe your own career, like you can take it to the next level just by thinking about, "How would I teach this to other people?" So it's pretty cool.

   4. CWChris Williamson51:30

      What are the most common resistances that people encounter when they're trying to implement monotasking more into their lives?

   5. TWThatcher Wine51:40

      Um, you know, some people say it's, it's, um, it's a luxury. Like it's, you know, it's a privilege. Like, "I don't have time. I have bills to pay. I, you know, have too much to do." You know, "Maybe when I'm retired I'll be able to do that." You know? And I think that, um, you know, we get in our own way. I think there's a present moment every moment, right here, right now, like, with the people you're with, doing the thing you're doing, wherever you are. And if you recognize, like, "I could either do two or five things in this moment, or I could do one," and if you do one, like, it's in the present moment. You're not, you know, distracting yourself and diluting yourself and your capabilities. So I think, you know, you give it a try and, and see if it works for you. Um, so I think there's just, like, a little bit of that fear, um, of people getting in their own way. That's one of the big ones.

   6. CWChris Williamson52:33

      Losing memories and not being able to recall the things that you've done is one of the biggest advantages that I can see of this. The- I, I don't know how it works. I'd love to speak to a neuro- a neuroscientist and, and find out why it is that when you try and have two things in your mind at once, you can barely remember either of them.

   7. TWThatcher Wine52:50

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson52:50

      It's not like you remember 50% of a trip if you spent the entire trip obsessing about something for work. You just don't remember any of the trip, and you probably can't remember what you were obsessing about to do with work, either. And yeah, y- y- especially 'cause I'm out here in Austin and I'm meeting new people and going to new places and stuff, and I'm really, really conscious, like, "I want to remember this," and it's cool.

   9. TWThatcher Wine53:09

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson53:09

       It's the first time that I've been in another country for an extended period of time. I want to spend- I want to be able to look back and really enjoy the memories that I've created. And yet, it's antithetical to the way that I spent most of the last 10 or 15 years of my life, trying to run a business, trying to be on WhatsApp whilst taking calls whilst thinking about two or three or four other things all at the same time. So yeah, I think the quality-of-life change that you're going to have from monotasking would probably be worth it on its own, but then when you think about the increase in the quality of your output that you're going to have, the downregulation in terms of stress, all that stuff, yeah, man. I mean, it's-

   11. TWThatcher Wine53:50

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson53:50

       It- it- it really is, I think, the perennial sort of modern-person problem.

   13. TWThatcher Wine53:54

       (laughs) Yeah. Modern, but yet an ancient problem, just, you know, w- little bit more information overload.

   14. CWChris Williamson53:59

       Weaponized with technology.

   15. TWThatcher Wine54:00

       Yeah, yeah. But I was at an event recently, and, um, you know, just having side conversation with somebody, and I introduced myself and, you know, said, "Hi, my name is Thacher," and he went, "Oh, I want to remember that." And he got out a notebook, and he wrote down my name. And I was like, "Come on, my name's, like, memorable, right?"

   16. CWChris Williamson54:15

       (laughs)

   17. TWThatcher Wine54:15

       I'm- it's not like John or something. Um, but I was like, "That's a great hack, you know, tip that he figured out for himself." Like, he has- he brings himself into the present moment. "This person's name is Thacher." I don't know if he made a note about what I looked like or something. It's monotasking. Like, everybody else is like, "Oh, hey, yeah," um, and then you forget what their name is, maybe because you were thinking about something else. Maybe you're just bad with names. It doesn't really matter. But, like, if you can find what works for you, whether it's to record those memories, um, or something else and let's just, like, fully pay attention, everything's better.

   18. CWChris Williamson54:53

       I would say I, I realized this as well, that I had an aversion to taking photos for a while, uh, and one of the reasons for that was I confused taking photos for posting on social media. And it's super cringe if you're out to dinner and somebody decides to try and take a million photos of the food because you know that they're not taking the photo of the food because they want to remember the food. They're doing it because they want to flex on whatever social network about whatever food they're eating or wh- whatever restaurant it is. And that had sort of made me feel a bit ick.... about recording the stuff that I did. But then Yousef, one of my good buddies, he's an absolute fiend with it and I really, I very much appreciate and I'm envious of how many photos he has that capture the things that he's done, and I think that there's maybe a place... It's certainly something that I needed to stress test myself on. The fact that, because I didn't like the idea of taking a photo for someone else didn't mean that I shouldn't be taking a photo just for me. And the difference between your man that's written it down in a notepad and said, "Hey, Thatcher, why don't we take a photo together?" And just snapped a, a photo. I do think that there's probably a way that you can be quite present and quite mono-tasked whilst taking a photo. However, if it's performative and it's then being done for someone else, I think that that's where I draw the line.

   19. TWThatcher Wine56:16

       I think that's a great distinction, yeah. I mean, I think if you're doing it for yourself because, like, this is how you're fully present. If you're taking a picture of your food because you're like, you know, "I'm gonna enjoy it more. I'm gonna taste the flavors. I'm gonna write about, you know, I want to remember, like, where on the plate this was positioned before I ate it," or something, and then I'm going to tell the story of it later. But I think that, like, if you're, if you're multitasking it, like, you're not actually... If you're just thinking about what it looks like while you're doing anything, live concert, or food, or trip you're on or something. Like, if you're always thinking like, "Oh, this would look so cool to people who aren't here," it's... Yeah, it's one thing. And then if it's like, "This will heighten my enjoyment of being in the present moment and my senses and, you know, my connection to these people," um, then it's a different thing. And I think we can... You know, social media is not great about drawing that distinction, um, or teaching us anything really (laughs) . Um, but, you know, we can... You can think about it in mono-tasking and multi-tasking terms as a just way, as a way to frame it. Am I mono-tasking... Am I doing two things, but it's still the same mono task of eating, of walking, of traveling? Or am I doing two things and then really multi-tasking, because I'm here, but I'm thinking about that social media post that I'm gonna create later?

   20. CWChris Williamson57:41

       Thatcher Wine, ladies and gentlemen.

9. 57:42 – 58:24

   Where to Find Thatcher

   1. CWChris Williamson57:42

      If you want to check out the book, it will be linked in the show notes below, The 12 Mono-Tasks. And if people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

   2. TWThatcher Wine57:51

      Uh, so I have a website. Um, I have two websites, maybe three. Uh, thatcherwine.com, monotasking.tips, and juniperbooks.com if you want to check out Red Rising and some of the other things we talked about.

   3. CWChris Williamson58:02

      Awesome, I appreciate you. Cheers, man.

   4. TWThatcher Wine58:04

      Thanks, Chris. It was a pleasure.

   5. CWChris Williamson58:05

      What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 58:24