Modern WisdomPredicting The Future & Dealing With Hate - Gary Vee
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,199 words- 0:00 – 6:05
What Should People Know About Attention?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think most people don't understand about how attention works?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Hoo. (sighs) How many- h- how long are we in this? This th- this could take the entire show. I, I think that, um, there's many things. I think for the corporate marketer that's watching right now or listening, meaning someone that works at a company, right, not a... Like, an advanced company, the f- let's call it the Fortune 50,000, not even 500, they don't realize that they're living in a academia board room environment on attention. They're trading on potential attention, not actualized attention, historic attention, not actualized attention. They're not day trading attention. They're buying attention of the past, even though I think deep down they know they're not buying it. Meaning, for simple terms for everyone... By the way, hi, everyone. Thanks for having me-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... on the show. The reason most companies still spend an ungodly amount of money on television, outdoor billboards, uh, (laughs) uh, print ads, uh, banner ads, or pre-rolls, or, you know, bad digital stuff is because their internal reports say there's attention there. And so the way corporate works is based on boardroom and fake reports. So I think that whole set, what they don't understand is where the actual attention is. Do I think they know? Do I think the 48-year-old that works at Tesla or BMW or, or, uh, or Mountain Dew, do I think they know? I th- uh, the 62-year-old, do I think they know? I think they actually really know. But I think they also know that if they buy TikTok media, that that hasn't made its way into their media agency conglomerate, their corporation, and it won't show up as ROAS positive, return on investment positive. So what... B- and I think because of that, they're not practitioners. When I went through COVID on Zoom with hundreds of CMOs, 'cause now we had the opportunity to do that, I was not flabbergasted, but I was reminded how most of my great friends and contemporaries in corporate America marketing are so far away from being a practitioner of social media creative, of what's going on with micro-influencers, of my belief that people like yourself with- are going to really disrupt CBG. Because not only have you built organic audiences, how- not only do you know how to make actual content that people wanna watch, but then even when you do advertising, you can outflank them because you understand that the first second of a video on a TikTok or Instagram matter, that the thumbnail matters, that the copy matters, the slang, the terminology, and more importantly, that you know that you'd rather spend your money on social creative media or influencers over so many other behaviors they do. So that's where attention is completely misunderstood in private equity, venture capital, Wall Street, f- corporations, Fortune 5000, Madison Avenue. On the c- on the art world side, all the people that are ha- more than half of the people that are watching right now, emerging influencers, creators, entrepreneurs, hustlers, grinders, the ambitious, I don't think they understand that it's everything, and then thus, they're playing at a seven at... Like, the people that we all see in our feeds, our circles, the Austin, Miami, LA, New York, the crew, I think everyone's at a seven, meaning they might have Instagram or TikTok down. They might be f- doing a podcast. They might be vlogging. They might know who the micro-influencers are. They, they, they've watched m- me from the OG, OG days all the way through all the Beasts and the Pauls and the D'Amelios and the, the Nelk Boys and the Yus and the, uh, like... They've seen it all, uh, but I don't think on a day to day... This is why I called it day trading attention. I don't think te- if I- when I look at the best, the people with millions of followers, I can see that they're still doing 16 months ago tactics, four months ago tactics, whether it's the thumbnail, the copy, the carousel, and definitely for the A players, why they're not A plus, why they're B minus, they don't fuck with LinkedIn enough. They don't fucking, they don't... They either are YouTube Shorts or TikTok or Spotlight Snap or Instagram, and they're not all. There are very few people on Earth, and I'm proud to be one of them, that ha- is actually doing day to day creative organic social on all of them, and I mean all of them, and takes YouTube Short nuances very seriously different than what X, Twitter does. And so for the A players, the B players, the reason they're not A plus is they're not diversified enough against enough platforms, and they're not... Once they hit, they start to get distracted about other things, rightfully so. They expand. They start CPGs. They start going to Coachella and hooking up. They start-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... doing, uh, they start thinking about other things, and it doesn't allow them... And every one of them knows it, right? Like, think about the contemporary set. It's fun that Coachella just happened. Every one of them knows it that when they were 16, 19, 23, 27, they were 24/7 obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with. And then when they start winning a little bit, they take a little of the petal, and they start smelling the roses, and that's amazing. But it means that there's opportunity, and for a lot of them, they've plateaued, right? 40 years ago when I was yelling about TikTok, a lot of people wanted to stay in Instagram 'cause they had a million followers there, and it was good for their ego. And so they didn't wanna start at zero on TikTok. And now what's happened is a lot of those influencers, creators, entrepreneurs are rushing to catch up. And what I wanted to do in this book is tell everybody, like, attention is it. It's like working out. You're in great shape clearly. Like, okay, you could do it well for four years, but if you take off for two years, like, shit's gonna happen. And I just want people to stay on it. And so what I think that people misunderstand that attention is very detailed, like I just broke down two sets. There's many more.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Um, but it's very nuanced and detailed within.
- 6:05 – 10:19
Missing the Leverage of Social Media
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like the two big groups there are one-... despite the fact that social media is almost ev- everything that people spend their time on their phones doing, it's still underpriced-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... and undervalued by most.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And that-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Definitely corporations.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Which is wha- And there's all the money up there. So it allows us kids-
- CWChris Williamson
That's your competitive advantage. Be more agile-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
...
- NANarrator
out.
- CWChris Williamson
... be closer to the ground. Right, okay. And then the second side of that, to be, I guess, like, a combination of even people whose jobs are social media still a misunderstanding of how much leverage is available, about how broad to go and about how deep to go, and then this temptation to take your eye off the ball if some success does come. You know-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... almost everybody is less successful than they would like to be. Almost everybody is a C to Z list player that's listening, and not a B or an A grade player, which means that the thing, the incentive and the impetus which is going to slow down the people at the very top is the competitive advantage for the people that are further down the ladder.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Correct. And, and, and the reason I framed it as day trading attention-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, tell me about that.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Well, I think, you know, day trading is something not everybody, uh, knows what that is, but a lot of people know what that is, and that's a very different way of buying stocks than the way I buy them. Like, I'll be like, seven years ago, I'm like, "You know what? Netflix is gonna win. I'm gonna buy some Netflix and I'm gonna go to sleep." And you got maniacs right now all over the world, like, "D-d-d..."
- CWChris Williamson
So you've got, like, create aggressively but trade lazily.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes. And so for me, I wanted people to understand attention is that way too. And so I'm glad that you crushed it and went from obscurity to a million YouTube subscribers, and you're crushing, but you're 23 and you still have huge ambitions and you're talking all sorts of shit that you're the next Mr. Beast, but guess what? I know you're not because you've already taken the foot off the pedal the last month and shit's happened.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And by the way, that's okay. I'm not here to say, "Be a psycho." I'm just saying the game is psycho. And if you wanna play it, you have an opportunity, and you have to think of it this way, because the styles, the jokes, the slang, the platforms, the algorithms, all of it's moving nanosecond by nanosecond, and either you're about that life or you're not.
- CWChris Williamson
You'll love this. So my housemate, Zach, is way more terminally online than I am. I don't use TikTok personally, uh, but, uh, Z does, and he is an honorary CMO of my company, chief meme officer, and he will tell me six months before something becomes mainstream on Instagram what's going to be the new meta on TikTok.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
And then six months after it's mainstream on Instagram, it then becomes the new meta, kind of it breaks out into mainstream media. Like at the moment, the, like, pedestrian cooked gasoline maxing, like, walk pilled cities of America, um, you know, whether it's being dialed or locking in, like, all of the language moves so quickly. And he'll tell me about the new meta and then we'll use it in ads on Newtonic, and then that'll spin away and I'll need to keep checking in with him. I'll need to get the weather report.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yesterday I was in San Francisco getting a coffee before my talk. Guy in line says, "Oh my god, Gary Vee." You know, very flattering, nice little chat. Guy who rings us up is a dude, has nail polish, rings us up. He taps me... After we had our nice pleasantry and I took a picture with him, he taps me on the shoulder again. He goes, "Do you remember like a couple years ago you said male makeup was gonna hit?" And he's like, "Look at the guy who just rung us up. I'm seeing that everywhere." I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "How'd you know that?" I'm like, "I live in the dirt." Your buddy Z lives in the dirt. The end.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
You're either an A&R... This is a, an old music thing. Back in the '80s, how'd you dis- '70s, how'd you discover Megui- Metallica or Guns N' Roses? You had to be up at 2:00 in the morning and go into the bars, and that's how you discovered Nirvana. You either were an A&R that not only put in the work and was out till 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning in LA, in Seattle, in New York at hip hop clubs. You also had the ear, right? So Zach, your buddy, is not only putting in the time. There's a load of people putting in the time. He clearly has a talent to have a sense, he has a smell-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... of what might hit.
- 10:19 – 16:37
Building Online Relevancy in 2024
- CWChris Williamson
that someone isn't toward the top of the tree. Where do people fall short when it comes to building relevancy and attention online now in 2024?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Right this nanosecond as we film and record this, the biggest framework perspective issue in the game is people make content for selfish reasons versus selfless reasons. The number one thing that I think hurts people that are not winning is... Because look, some people are just gonna be attractive enough.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Some people are just gonna be charismatic enough. Some people are just gonna have enough experience and expertise in something that it's gonna be enough.
- CWChris Williamson
You want a tactic that's more reliable and scalable than that?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, I mean, just like the three things I just mentioned, like, that's just a DNA game or a circumstance game. For me, I wasn't attractive enough. I... You know, maybe I was charismatic enough, but I started making business content at 34. I'd already been doing it my whole life and I'd already built a very large business on day trading attention, on email, search, YouTube, social. So I had the skills. I wasn't 18. I'd lived through it already and could speak to it, right? Not that 18-year-old... By the way, for all the 18-year-olds, I was hustling since I was 10. I had things to say at 18 that were right. So, but I had experience. I think for the rest of the crew that isn't that yet, there's so much opportunity, but I think even for the people that have the luck of the draw or the ones that don't, the big game is most people make content to become famous, rich, to scratch their own egos and insecurities. It's selfish.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I can tell you right now, no question, the biggest reason I think a lot of things work for me and things I observe in others is when I post something, I'm like, "What's in it for them?" One of the reasons I never post, like, bougie shit is I don't understand what's in it for the audience when you show them that you're drinking champagne on a private plane.Once in a while when I say this, I'll get a DM or a text from a buddy being like, "No, bro, it's aspirational." I'm like, "Bro, there's unlimited aspirational shit out there. You don't need to contribute it. Fuck you. You're doing it to flex." So for me, the first thing that people need to think about is, why is this good? Now, if you're a magician that does card tricks on TikTok, it's good 'cause that's entertainment. It's the reason people go to Vegas shows. It's why we watch TV. Entertainment's good, humor's good. King Bach, what does ... Like, he brings value, he makes me laugh. Then there's people that give information, inspiration. There's a lot of things you can do, right? And so I think the framework of what's in it for them versus what's in it for me will really help most people listening right now, especially given, like, how sharp I think the audience that listens to you is. They're thinking of it very smartly, like, from a business standpoint, from a lev- Like, it's the game, right? It's the game. I just ... If, if they just added a little bit of like, yes, I understand you're trying to figure out what will go viral, what will overindex, what will work, how do I make it happen, how do I build myself up, I wanna be a speaker, I wanna have a podcast, I wanna be an actor, I wanna own a sports de- uh, whatever. Just fuck that, man. Just something of like can you say something or do something that actually will bring value to someone? Before we started this, you're like, "Hey, mate, like the book went pretty, like, deep on the content." That's how I thought about writing the book. I'm ... Y- We literally had this convo right before we started. What the fuck am I writing this book for? Because I was ready to go so detailed, because I know that people that are good, like winners, the kids, the Zachs out there, that they're gonna listen on audio or read the book and they're gonna get their fucking $19 worth or whatever the fuck Amazon's gonna sell it for, because they're gonna get one tactic, one, that tweaks it and gets them value. And so I think the first thing that they need to focus on is the perspective of what's in it for them. I know why you're doing it. You want. What do they want? What's good for them?
- CWChris Williamson
So are you talking about adding value?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
You know, but in a real fundamental way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Like, in the same way that those corporate fucks know they're buying bullshit and not social, I'm asking all the hustlers, all the winners, you know you're doing this for you. Just add a little fucking something for them, like-
- CWChris Williamson
How can you judge that? Because it's very difficult to extract our own ego from the desire to grow our online platform. We want to be validated by the world around us.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Even, even the most delusional, the most not conscious of us, I just believe in the human spirit when I say this. I think even the ones that are le- th- the least in touch with our feelings, the ones that have done the least amount of mental work, the ones that are most cynical, even those people, I think as they're listening to us right now, can have a sense of, when they post something, are they trying to bring value to the person on the other side at all?
- CWChris Williamson
Of course, but have you got a more hard and fast rule than that?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
No, I don't. I think th-
- CWChris Williamson
So do you know ... Here's one from a friend, George Mack.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Please.
- CWChris Williamson
He has Mack's Content Razor. Would you consume your own content? If not, don't post it.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, I think, I think that's wonderful. I think we ... The reason I say no I don't and why I think that's wonderful, I think it all sits in the same cousin tree of analogies that one can use in this moment. I ... It's not super complicated. What's in it for them? Is this good? Did you say something that brings value? Whether you're being vulnerable and creating a connec- Uh, vulnerability's a powerful one. There's a lot of people winning out there. Uh, last ... (laughs) so this was interesting. Literally when I landed last night, late last night, I've been traveling like crazy this week, I literally tweeted, "Man, it's been a week." And I was-
- CWChris Williamson
I saw the photo of you in the back of the car.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And I was like, this has just, like, been f- ... Uh, I was, without context, and this is why written word has no context-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... I was really, like, f- ... I didn't wanna spell it all out, I just kind of wanted to go with a quick tweet. I was talking from the lens of like, "Man, this feels like 2016," right? It was like New York to Miami, Miami to West Palm, West Palm to Miami, Miami to San Francisco, San Francisco to Austin, back to New York to ... like, at midnight tonight. Then Saturday, Utah, back to U- back to New York, all in one day. Like, I'm like, "Ooh, this is 2015 life." But I had a lot of people hit me up on DM on Instagram being like, "You cool?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
'Cause they're not used to ... They interpret it as, like, uh, maybe I'm struggling or having a pothole or something, and that was very, very lovely. And it reminded me how much vulnerability stops people in their tracks, provides values, allows people to be compassionate towards you. And so there's a lot of ways to bring value. I think Mack's rule is absolutely right, like would you consume it? Like what... I'm always like, "What's in it for them?" That's the one I go into in my brand. What's in it for them?
- 16:37 – 27:12
The Role of Authenticity in Content
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about the role of authenticity online now.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Look, I think people talk a lot about this, and I think it's obviously very important. Uh, and I st- ... And the reason I think about it from importance is I th- I don't think it's very important short term. I think it's incredibly important long term. Let me explain. Authenticity is something that gets exposed out over time. You know that... This sum- ... I think is gonna really land for you and a lot of listeners. Lots of people are tricking lots of people in the short term.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
So the reason I like la- authenticity is why I'm on book seven, why I'm still here, why in the 2007, eight, nine social media world of just Twitter and a little bit of Facebook, there was a lot of personalities. And by the way, I was probably the front runner to not be around a year later, because I came out, and I'm so loud, I'm so over the top, and I'm so ridiculous. And in 2007, cursing and casual dressing was so not in vogue. And I remember the whispers in the backstages. I read the tweets of like, "Oh, the wine guy from Jersey, Gary Vee-"
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
"... or whatever his name is, he'll be gone in a year. That's clearly just sizzle." And so for me, authenticity speaks to, like, why I'm still here in '24, and why almost everybody I met in 2007 is not here. And I think, you know, what is the importance of it? I think it's a, it's a incredible indicator of longevity. I think in the short term, it's hard to dissect. Most people don't really know people. Th- people pop out, they get hot for their looks, their smarts, their what have you. What I like about authenticity is I think it is incredibly g- grounded in the marathon more than the sprint. So I think for all the kids that are listening, good news, you can win in the short term with not being authentic. You can fake the funk, you can trick people to f-... at scale, especially with AI coming. All sorts of shit. You'll be able to trick the fuck out of people for a little while, and then you'll be exposed, and then what are you gonna do with the rest of your 90 years of life?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, hypocrisy on the internet is like catnip for people, because do you remember, do you ever play... You might not have been to a British pub in sort of the 2000s. Um, there were these touchscreen games that were spot the difference, and it was done with a timer, and you had to hit the differences between the two things. Hypocrisy is basically like, uh, an ideological equivalent of that game. You said this thing in the past, you did this thing in the future, I can compare what you stated from what you did or what you said and what you said, and I see there's a discordance here, and I'm gonna bring it to bear. Because it's so perfectly designed for social media, because I have the screenshot of the thing that happened before or the video, and I have the video of now, and people can compare and contrast.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Two d- Uh, yes. Two dynamics on that. One, for everyone who's listening, that doesn't mean you, you're not allowed to change your mind.
- CWChris Williamson
Of course.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Right? I think that's one of the most powerful, wonderful things of a human. And to your point, if one then goes and owns that, speaks to losses-
- CWChris Williamson
100%.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... says, "Hey, I used to, now I..." So, A, you're in control of that to your point when you're trying to say you didn't.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
That starts to kill the au- lack of authenticity. The other thing that's interesting about what you just said is, man, deepfake videos, what a, what a game-changing reality we're about to walk into.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Like, you know, one of the things I think a lot about is that people find what they're looking for. So if you're looking for negativity, you're gonna find it. If you're looking for positivity, you're gonna find it. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Misery loves its company. Yep.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I think with all these fake video- I mean, the amount of videos of you and I that will be on the internet in the next seven years, next ten years, of things we never said, literally in a decade from today, most people will not believe any of the videos they see on the internet, because there'll be more fake ones than real ones.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
We're going into such a wild era that is gonna reset so many things of truth, hypocrisy, things of that nature. But yes, I have enjoyed that. Uh, I'm, I'm with you on what you just said. It's been interesting to watch that.
- CWChris Williamson
I have a, uh, I got asked by a friend probably about a year ago-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Can I give you, I apologize. Can I give you a great example?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
'Cause I don't think a lot of people sit in both the creator, influencer, entrepreneur world, and in the Fortune 500 marketing world. My favorite hypocrisy happens in corporate America. When you're the CEO of an old media company, you're like, "Print, TV, it's awesome." And then they go and get a job at Facebook or Twitter or Snapchat, and they're like, "Social media is number one." But I'm like, "Two weeks ago, you just said that TV was number one."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
The hypocrisy of corporate animals based on what they're selling is at the highest level.
- CWChris Williamson
I guess, uh, what's funny about that is that's a, such a vaulted world that very few of us are going to see.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, I can see what people l- LinkedIn post or tweet or, or, or Instagram story or whatever. Uh, but that thing, uh, with it, you maybe get to see in boardrooms and, and C-suites and stuff like that.
- 27:12 – 35:42
Evolution of Successful Content Types
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
- CWChris Williamson
What have been the biggest changes in the type of content that works online across the, uh, lifecycle trajectory since you started creating to now?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Wow. You know, I started creating February 20th or 21st, 2006. That's when I did my first episode of Wine Library TV. Um, and so a lot has changed. You know, it's funny, my early instincts ended up becoming the game. One of the reasons I had a lot of eyes on me back in 2006, '07, was I was doing long form video on YouTube, uh, and then I started doing it on a site called Viddler. That was a big early mistake of my career. There was this competitor to YouTube called Viddler that had tagging, and I was doing such long videos, and people wanted to see the third wine I was reviewing, so the tagging at the bottom, you could click the little button and get to the third wine, was, like, this profound technology-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, like timestamping or ch-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
That's right, well-
- CWChris Williamson
... like chapters.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... it didn't exist then. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And everybody's just, "So-"
- CWChris Williamson
How interesting.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah. Anyway, nonetheless, I, so much has changed. Um, first of all, all of social media content in 2006, '7, '8, as public creators and influencers, was only Silicon Valley elite. There was no normal people on it. Going back to club life, so many of my New York friends and LA friends that are of my age who I didn't know because I was working in the liquor store and I was working all the time, I didn't do as much nightlife, but a lot of them I know now and they've built their careers and everyone's kind of un- you know, found each other. They talk often about the 2006, '7, '8 era of, like, these social media people, myself included, Zuckerberg, Evan Williams, Travis from Uber, of like, "Oh, we thought those people were nerds. Like, that wasn't cool."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
So the f- 2006, '7, '8, '9 creators, influencers, content, was more intellect, more business, more so- more, uh, innovation-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... more techie.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
There was no coo- nobody was cool. There was, there was nothing cool about it. And so a lot of it was, if you go look back at... I mean, if, I bet you if you read the first 10 million tweets, which I assume from 2006 to 2000 and, I don't know how long it took them to get there, it is nerd s- it's engineers, it's front end designers, it's Python and Ruby on Rails engineers, it's startup founders, it's VCs, and it's not VCs today which is like cool bro gym bros that are also VCs. It was finance-
- CWChris Williamson
Coders.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
It was coders. It was nerds. I was, when I tell you I was like a charity prod- I was like the, the industry, the web 2.0 Silicon Valley industry would point to me a lot in 2006, '7, '8, '9, 'cause I was a wine store owner in New Jersey of like, "See? This isn't just San Francisco." I was, like, an enigma. So that was that. Also, nobody thought in what I played out here, nobody was thinking about this in, like, deep strategy. First of all, the biggest thing that changed is social media for the first decade was email marketing. Amass as many followers as you can, and a certain percentage of them will see it every time you post.
- CWChris Williamson
Huh.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Now in the last three years, we've lived through the TikTokification of all social media. Now it is-
- CWChris Williamson
Wh- What do you mean when you say that?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
We now live in a social media world where somebody listening right now, that 17-year-old you and I, does not even have a profile.... starts a TikTok account, and her or his third post gets two million views. That didn't exist ever for the first decade. It couldn't happen. She would have only had 11 followers. Now, the TikTokification, the For You Page-ification of every platform, the AI algorithms, the it is now around interests, not around who you follow, means that every individual piece of content now has the potential to reach a level of awareness that is far outreaching the effort you've put it into it. It's the Ozempic and steroids-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... of social media era.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's made, it's made social media much more egalitarian in that way.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Bingo. The meritocracy that we're living in right now, I mean, but like, I'm get- I always know when I, like, like, we're talking about something important right now. This is how I al- always write. The goosebumps are, um-
- CWChris Williamson
It's the animalistic attraction as well.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Well, the, the, the bucket. Well, you mean to you?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 35:42 – 44:55
What’s the Best Content Style Today?
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about when it comes to the specifics of content style, what do you, what do you think have got the greatest upside at the moment? Everyone's talking about vertical video, about face to camera. Uh, Substack, I think has got, like, tremendous-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's one of my favorite, uh, I don't know whether you'd call it social media. I guess it's kind of what Medium should have been. Uh-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, it, that's exactly right. It's content, it's subscription.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I think Medium shit the bed there, and absolutely. I mean, they had it. They absolutely had it.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I mean, Ev Williams is probably one of my three favorite s- uh, what-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that the dude behind Medium?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Ev Will- He's also the dude behind Twitter. I know Jack gets a lot of the credit now.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
In 2006, '07, '08, Jack invented the concept, Ev ran the company.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Ev, Ev was, Ev was the s- was the guy. At, at bare minimum, they were the co-guys. By the 2006, '7, '8, '9 era of Twitter was Ev Williams. He also was Bebo, which he al- he like, he, he's like... O- oh, not Bebo. Excuse me, um-... Blogspot? Uh, he sold something to Google. I apologize. It definitely wasn't Bebo. It was something else. He s- uh, I think Blogspot or something of that nature, if I recall. And he also then did a pod... After he sold the big company to Google, he was about to build a podcast company, and then Apple Podcasts came out. And he was smart, and he was like, "This is gonna lose. Shut it down." Very smart. Then Twitter. Um, he did Medium. You're right. They were very close. I was so- I was so bullish on Medium.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Uh, and Substack, I think, innovated that same site. Similar to Digg and Reddit.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Right? Digg was Reddit.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. All right. So, uh-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And then Medi- Blogger, thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
From con-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Blogger is what Ev Williams did. Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
From content strategy side-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, someone says, "Gary, I found my thing, or I have an idea what my thing might be. It's going to be cricket or-"
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... tea or darts." Um, what should somebody be thinking about? I think a lot of people get stuck in the-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
What to make.
- CWChris Williamson
... mechanisms.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- 44:55 – 49:43
Platforms to Watch in the Next 3-5 Years
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me from a platform perspective. A lot of people are gonna be asking this question. Okay, so, uh, I have a number that are in front of me. I can do written word on LinkedIn. I can do written word on Substack. I can do vertical video, TikTok, Instagram. I can even do that on, uh, Facebook. I can just simul-post it from Instagram across onto Facebook. I can do YouTube Shorts, et cetera. What are the platforms over the next three to five years that you're the most bullish and bearish on?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I can't answer that question 'cause it's not how my brain thinks. Let me explain what I mean. Day trading attention is don't romanticize about yesterday, Instagram, and don't try to get too excited about tomorrow. Elon posts yesterday. Vine, question mark. Right? So Vine's coming. Don't overthink today. I don't know what's gonna be there in three to five years. I definitely wouldn't... Like, the reason I'm good at my game is when it happens, I'm all in. So I can only speak about today. And anybody worried about three to five... And people ask me all the time, "What's next?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Three to five years, I don't know. I know that Meta and Google are not going to disappear. So I continue to think they'll innovate or M&A and be in the game as macro companies. But YouTube Shorts was not in the cards for me three years ago, right? But then TikTok's pressure made them go there. I think Vine is gonna be massively interesting to watch when they reboot it.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that coming back?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
100%. I'd be f- it would make the, it would be... Elon's too smart to not do it.
- CWChris Williamson
Does Twitter own Vine?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay. And that was part of the deal?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes, once, you know, but they shut it down, but it's still there.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And they own the IP.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And, you know, I mean, sh- Vine is the absolute seed of this generation. Short form video started on Vine. It was a profound thing when it hit. I remember looking at it day one, I was like, "Ooh, this is different different." And it just completely captured youth culture at that time, and I was very serious about it. As a matter of fact, I launched... You can Google this right now, everyone listening. I launched, probably, I mean, the article said it, like, the first influencer agency called GrapeStory with Jerome Jarre, one of the first celebrities on Vine. And we signed Logan Paul, Rudy Mancusi, like all of these characters. Brittany Furlan, like King B- Like, we were talking to all of them. So, I, to answer your question directly and not get too scattered here, I, I don't know what three to five years is gonna bring. I know that for everyone who's listening, the answer is more, and yes, and and. Meaning, my argument with everyone here today is every minute that you don't spend on gathering more attention is a minute that you're potentially declining on your long-term opportunity. There's times to cash in on your attention. There's times to do other things. But I feel like a lot of people will go, you know, we talked earlier about regret. The only things I regret as a businessman is not going harder on my thumb on the scale every time where I knew the attention was. I should have made more TikTok videos six years ago. I should have done more Google Ads in 2001. I should have sent more emails in '96. I should have done more tweets in 2007. And so, whether it's, you know, we haven't talked about live streaming. I mean, there's so much going on with Twitch and all these live streaming platforms. TikTok Live is very important. Look, we don't... Three to five years, what if TikTok gets banned by America in seven months? Where does all that attention go?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Right? I mean, to me, that's a huge opportunity for Vine. If I'm Elon, I'm sitting like, "Okay, if I time this perfectly," and I'm Elon, right? Like, I'm that guy. If I announce Vine the day Tik- Like, I could probably get every s- Like, it could happen in bloop, bloop. That'd be insane. What a strategy. You know, and so, I don't know. I know that as I sit here today, right this nanosecond, Instagram's harder than ever 'cause the supply and demand curve on Instagram is hard. More content was made on Instagram yesterday than ever in the history of Instagram. But the attention has been fragmented into YouTube Shorts, into TikTok. So how can Instagram be as good as it was four years ago? It's not.Supply and demand. Supply and demand. Supply and demand of attention. I know that YouTube Shorts has a longer tail on its views than anything else, because YouTube's the second-biggest search engine in the world. So I know when I make it short on YouTube, I title it in a way that more matches search than I would on TikTok, because I want somebody in four months to search, "How do I d-" And I show up, right? These are the things I obsess over.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
This is why I went so nerdy in this book. I went so fucking detailed.
- CWChris Williamson
That was only- that, th- that was only a recent update with regards to Shorts, that they were using keywords in title for search.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
It, it, it is only been a recent thing more people have talked about, but from the day it started-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that was always in there?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... Shorts were showing up in results.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting. Yeah.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
That was a big-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's something that we've, it's something that we've certainly, uh, used on the channel, that we'll put, if there's a Short that comes up from this, it'll be whatever the title of it is, line, Gary V or Gary Vaynerchuk.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
That's really
- NANarrator
Of course. Of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, okay, so ...
- 49:43 – 53:56
Thoughts on Naval’s Airchat
- CWChris Williamson
Is there room, in your opinion ... Actually, even a better question than that. Naval released AirChat-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... this week. What's your thoughts?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yes. I love it. I'm really enjoying it. I went HAM this weekend. This has been a crazy week for me, so I've been a little bit sad that I haven't been able to jam with it as much. First of all, I love the beginning stages of seeing AI so integrated into native social. Right? So for everybody who doesn't know, AirChat, ir- You know, it's ironic, and you may know this, it's been around for almost four years.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
They keep iterating it, and the latest version of it has really caught fire last week. But by the way, all those nerds from 2006, '07, the Josh Elmans, the Mazios, like all my favorite homies from back in the day, they're all there. It's the way that it always works. The nerds are always a few minutes before the cool kids. So Air- But now you see a blend. Back to cool kids being on there over the weekend in a way that we've never seen before. Not even Clubhouse. It's usually the nerds. Now, for AirChat to not become Clubhouse or other things, AKA a feature, right? Because Twitter Spaces is Clubhouse. It needs to keep innovating, but it's really cool, right? So for everybody who doesn't know, it's, it'll, it's very much like Twitter, but the difference is it's all audio. So you record your tweet, but then it transcribes it into the written word. But when you consume it, you can read it or listen to it. And when there's a conversation or a thread of tweets, it will just play, almost like a podcast. It's really neat. There's a lot of cool things in it. Um, so the way I think about things are, are they features or are they permanent platforms? So-
- CWChris Williamson
Is this gonna get gobbled up by some existing larger platform and just get folded into their-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
... feature list?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
That's right. So obviously Twitter would be a natural, because it's m- it looks most like Twitter. Um, but this might have too much friction for that. The answer is, the verdict's still out. But when I think about the things that people have asked me about in the last several years, uh, Dustin is filming in the background right now, you remember, I was really on it with BeReal. People were like, "BeReal's next." I'm like, "Mm, I think it's gonna be a feature." Right? Like, I don't s- Now, BeReal could have built on top of it. Snap did. Snap early could have been a feature, and then they built more things into it, and then obviously their killer feature, Stories, became foundational to every platform. So, you know, I'm always paying attention when new platforms pop. Uh, ReClip, I don't know if you've seen this. This one's on my mind a little bit. Again, I've been watching it for several months. It hasn't popped yet. It's r- it's on your phone. It's recording everything that you're talking about. It's, it's a recorder of everything.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, it's Amazon.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Y- (laughs) It's what people are scared of thinking what, uh, Alexa is. Talk about conspiracy theorists. Uh, but here's the interesting part, it's only recording the last two minutes. So it doesn't record everything. It's a rolling last two minutes. You know what that allows to happen? When you're-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, we just said that thing. Oh, that's very smart. That's cool.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
It's very-
- CWChris Williamson
That's cool.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
The reason I thought TikTok was gonna explode musically, was, I'm like, "Oh my God, this is social media with training wheels." They're giving people music, they're giving people all these edits. It's gonna help non-creators be better creators.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
The reason I like ReClip, it allows everybody in the world to be an audio content creator, or video, because then when you, when you're done with the ReClip, you can, like, add features to it and it becomes like a TikTok.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I think they're onto something. Again, these are, I'm always watching, but I don't anoint ... It- it's even rare for me to mention something like ReClip in such a prominent platform like this podcast, because I don't want ... I don't ... On the record, AirChat, ReClip, I don't know, but I'm always in the lab watching. I'm always refining my day-to-day social, back to day-to-day intention. And I'm always watching for the next wave. And sometimes something ... I'll, I'll tell you this, what I learned on SocialCam. SocialCam was a social network, I think, in 2011 or '12, that was hot for, I don't know, 48 seconds, AKA a summer. But I created on it. That helped me understand what to do on Vine. It was even ... Like, Vine actually hit, SocialCam didn't, but it was short form video. And so when Vine came, I was like, "Wait a minute." And then obviously when the whole next era came, I was ready for short form video.
- 53:56 – 1:03:08
Long-Form Vs Short-Form Content
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about long form content versus short form, and we can fold into that conversation, uh, volume versus quality/depth-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah. Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... of content as well.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I think, uh, a lot to talk about there. Yes to your first question. They both work. People will watch a three-hour movie if they love it, or a 45-minute vlog. I did very well with DailyVee. They were long. And people will watch seven-second videos that crush, and people will not watch seven-second videos because they're garbage. And people will definitely not watch 25-minute videos if they're garbage. So that goes back to self-awareness. Like, are you capable of doing a vlog or a bl- you know, like, or a great video series, or are you not? Same with short form. Quantity, quality. Quantity is not debatable. You either make 97 pieces of content in a month, or you don't.Quality is completely subjective. Either this person's attractive, funny, insightful, or not. I'm very high on that. However, I do think that people... I think I didn't do a good enough job contextualizing when I would al- you know, I've been screaming on social for seven years, "Volume, volume, volume, volume." The reality is, is it's a quality-quantity ratio. Volume if you're capable. If you have a lot to say, if you have a lot of jokes, if you have a lot of good looks, if you have a lot of techniques, if you have w- if you have shit to say, go, go, go, go, go different ways, edits, different, you know? If you don't, of course not. This goes back to earlier, why I'm obsessed with passion or expertise. You're dead if you're not doing passion or expertise. You just won't have enough juice.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
There is not enough fuel in it. Passion will take you forever, which is why I like that actually more.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
But expertise, especially if you don't hate it... I always get worried about expertise 'cause a lot of people's thing that they know, 'cause it's their profession, they don't like, and I do think that fuel will run out as well. But to answer your question, one more time, to recap for everybody, both long and short form work and don't work. It's based on how good are you. I think quantity matters. In future AI word, world, you're gonna get drowned out by the quali- quantity of content if you don're not committed to quantity. But yes, of course it's predicated on the quality of that quantity. I just think you should have more at-bats. Many of the posts I put out, with all this 20 years of expertise and writing the book and being that guy, I miss all the time. B- but I love that feeling. Like, I'm trying to learn... I saw somebody, uh, the other day in a piece of content making fun of me and my team for doing all sorts of different shit, and I was laughing 'cause I'm like, "No, no, that's the game." The point I think he was trying to make is like, he's lost his way, he doesn't know what he's doing, he's just throwing th- We're not throwing against a wall to see what sticks. We're exploring different features and things to try to learn what's next, and I have the humility for it to not do well. Do you know that the reason most people suck at social media is they're scared to not get as many views as their little fragile ego needs to go through the day? I don't give a. I'm, I'm streaming on Twitch on mute in my office, 83 people are watching. I don't give a. That doesn't take away from everything I'm doing.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you not think that there's a degree of optics? Like, people, uh, naturally use popularity as a proxy for quality?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so to a degree, if there is, i- if you're consistently posting in a way that isn't getting... Not saying that this is what you're doing.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But if you're consistently posting in a way and it's like 83 likes-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... nine likes, like, that says something to your audience about... You know, when you look at, uh, YouTube and you see thumbnail, you see title, you see the name of the creator, you see how long it is. Like, those are important metrics, but when you go on, you see how many people have viewed that video.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
You... It depends on what... If you're trading for popularity, sure, or the perception of popularity, sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Depends on what you're trading on. For me, if 80 people are watching me on Twitch while I'm on mute all day and there's really no reason to watch it, (laughs) but I'm just experimenting... If someone then decides, like, GaryVee fell off or sucks, that person is incredibly not smart. I'm not al- I'm not super worried about losing with losing players.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Yeah, that's an interesting way. I think a lot about the time of, uh, cultivating the audience that you want, uh, and being very careful about the sort of people that you attract, you know?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Of course.
- CWChris Williamson
You can throw red meat and you can do the audience capture thing and you can be predictable. There's something about-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I could get 100 million views tomorrow if I decide to go crazy on something I don't believe on that will goad the entire audience into watching. Who the wants that? Like, it depends on what you're playing for. Too many people are trying to win with losing players, and too many people are not trying to win with winning players. One of the things I tell a lot of kids that fake the funk when they pitch me, businesses... I see you're gathering your thoughts 'cause I want you to hear this.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm listening.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I think you'll really like this. No, no, I totally get it. Um, one of my favorite meetings to have is a kid that comes in that's got it, you know, the juice, but I'm like listening. I love listening to a pitch, and I realize that she or he just pitched me and it would work on 99% but not the 1%. And what I mean by that is I'll go into something specific they go where I know they're embellishing, and I'll go very narrow. If it's a place I'm comfortable and I know what I'm talking about, and I know a lot about a lot of stuff. This is why I started VaynerMedia. The main reason I started VaynerMedia was to know as many different things about as many different businesses as possible and build the biggest marketing communications company in the world that I could deploy against my other behaviors when I got older. For me, it's always been about 60 to 70, like that's when I'm gonna strike like a cobra. This right now is just foreplay. This is just a setup. This is the jab. Anyway, when I'm in a meeting like that, I had this happen the other day with a kid, and I went deep and I was like, "Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh." And I could see the kid was a li- little bit like... 'cause I was like calling him a- And he... By the way, he crushed it, like would s- I'm like, "This kid's gonna win." You know? That charisma, that salesmanship. And there was a lot of good stuff, but he was full of shit on like three or four things, but it was complicated to know it. But it just happened to be in a space that I knew enough to be able to go there. He really took it well, which was what I wanted to see, which I, which gave me even more confidence that he's just 24 and he's gonna get there. And then I said something to him that I really... I say a lot of shit, and I'm into this shit, but I, I like those moments where I'm like, "I think this person just internalized this and it's gonna be like a thing, and I can't wait for them to dominate, and I'm gonna be old and they're gonna be like, 'GaryVee once said to me 30...'" I, I like that stuff, and I like it for him. I said, "Brother, you're gonna win with 99% of losing players. The problem is you do that pitch again to the 1% winners, you're gonna lose with all of them, and they're the only people that matter." And this is a... That recaps what we just talked about. So yes, do I think perception is reality? Yes, I do. Do I think brand matters over everything? I sure do. But I think that if people... The biggest issue with the world right now is people want to take everything out of context-... have no concept of it. We've eliminated intent. People trying to cancel everybody?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Cancel culture-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... was a disaster 'cause it tried to cancel people without understanding their intent. If somebody's a beautiful person, they just didn't know the proper slang or didn't know that... and they just had no ill will, the (censored) are you trying to get them fired for?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 1:03:08 – 1:08:14
Exciting Upcoming Creators
- CWChris Williamson
me a handful of creators that if you could bet on them, somehow, over the next couple of years, you would think about. Or it could just be the ones that you find yourself coming back to. Like you can't wait when you see their, their videos at the top of your suggested feed-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I'll te- I'll tell you-
- CWChris Williamson
... or whatever.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... I, I, I love you for adjusting based on my facial reaction. That's not why I made that face. I'm very weird when it comes-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Let me... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Let me explain what I mean by this.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I don't consu- like, let me give you an example. I don't know if I'm betting on her. Nick Dio hit me up with, um, with someone yesterday, and I, I spent like... I loved it. Um, it's not that I'm betting on her. Let me see if I can fucking find this. Um, she's like an in- like an intern. Like, this... She's got 37 followers on Instagram, or 137. And- and Dio said, "I bet she has 50,000 in a month." And I'm like, "You're right." And wha- why I'm... L- let me tell you where I'm going with this. I don't go deep on people or influencers or content creators. I go very wide. I'm looking for macro trends and- and things that I think I can contribute to the conversation in podcasts like this. So for me, I don't actually consume anything. I con- and I consume everything. I'm trying to, like, really... The reason I said I'm weird and you'll l- like, I'm trying to figure out how I can break this down. I am... Seven years ago would answered MrBeast, yet I've never watched a MrBeast video in my life. Like, Charli D'Amelio was in my office for her first business meeting. I might have watched one full eight-second dance video of hers to kno- Like, I'm going so broad, right? 310baby as a rapper, of like, do I think... Like, I- I'll listen to a song ha- first minute. There's something in the way that I... Because I'm trying to consume everything, it's almost like I don't have the time to go deep enough, and so I'm not great... I'm disappoint... In- in a weird way, I'm disappointed in myself to not be able to answer your question-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... 'cause I've seen 50 of them in the last 50 weeks, but I... A, I have some form of reading comprehension issues and dyslexia where, like, words are hard for me. So, like, n- I could tell someone that I saw them in an airport in Dubai for... and I could tell them we talked about peanuts 13 years ago, and I could have seen their social media 90 times and they say- they could say, "What's my name?"
- CWChris Williamson
Not remember the name.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And I'm like, "I don't know."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of... I guess the-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
So I guess-
- CWChris Williamson
I- I've got it in my head that you're like a, a meteorologist, but for social media. You're trying to be the weather report. You're trying to take the big macro trends-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, I'm just... That's-
- CWChris Williamson
... what's going-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
And- and I'll see things and I'll like... Like, but it- it's very hard for me to say, like... Especially 'cause I like being historically correct.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
So I'm not gonna sit here and say, like, you know... I think I can tell you the profile, 'cause this might help a lot of people.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, what's the kind of person-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that will succeed over the next-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... few years on social media?
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
The- the ones that can get the noise out. The biggest reason people won't win in social media is people don't have the stomach to handle the feedback. People won't have the stomach for the changing winds of day trading. They'll be on a pedestal on TikT- all these TikTok followers, and I say followers like I'm one of them. Like, the people that are winning on TikTok right now, their day will come. Their day will come where the attention shifts, and they won't be ready. And will they be ready, after having four years of being on, to do it again? Do you have the intestinal fortitude...... to be in perfect sh- you. You're in such great shape, if you go through a period of your life for three years where you do all the wrong things, and you wake up three years later and say, "F- I'm getting back to this dude," do you have the strength? Because once y- you know, the hardest thing is once you were there, when you lose it, to get back, right? If you, if you were making five million a year. Let's say you were making $40,000 a year, and then you blew up on social, and you had two years where you made three million a year. But then you're not popping on social anymore. Do you have the strength to go back and put the work in to get back to that place? That, do you have the emotional capability to take one step backwards to then take two steps forward? Do you have the grit? Do you have the self-esteem? Do you have the ability to deal with the ebb and flow? Do you have... Think about the people that get trolled. Are you gonna cry and disappear, or are you gonna be Logan Paul and become a WWE superstar? Like, do you have the strength to deal with criticism at scale? Do you have the strength to deal with the toe bumps? The biggest reason people aren't entrepreneurs is entrepreneurship is losing constantly with the occasional win. It looks cool, but people don't love eating shit.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about
- 1:08:14 – 1:13:57
Dealing With Criticism & Scrutiny
- CWChris Williamson
how you deal with criticism and the inevitable ups and downs of success. You're someone that has got both.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
By being empathetic to it being a reality of life. It's inconceivable that you want attention and you're not gonna have judgment in a world that is obsessed with taking things out of context and only headline reading. There's no common sense to that. I don't take it personal. I care about the judgment of the most inner circles that I have, family and friends, employees, inner circles, acquaintances that became friends. Like, I can't be upset if Johnny97 thinks I'm a dick face because my energy's too much. I'm also empathetic. I know that my alpha, competitive, high energy jersey, like, I know what this is. That's not for everybody. Some people wanna zen out. If you wanna zen the out, I'm not your guy. And so, I'm just too empathetic. I, I also think it's humility. At the end of the day, I'm like, "Who the am I? Who gives a if I die tomorrow, what's gonna happen? I'll get 24 hours of love on social, right? People will be like, 'Oh, man, this...' What the?" Like, you know, like-
- CWChris Williamson
And then a year later, "Do you remember Gary Vee?"
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
100%. And luckily, we live in an era where we're more like, all of us are more like the most famous people in the world. Like, we'll live forever. Like, a clip from this... Like, do you know how cool it is that our great... Do you know how fun it will be? This is insane. Your and my great-great-great-grandchildren will somehow realize, 'cause last names, things will change, but somehow, if they became great friends, would somehow family tree it and be like, "Holy fuck." And w- they're gonna l- hey, hey, Jeremiah794, like, they will literally watch this. Do you know how cool that is? But at the end of the day, the, how do I handle it? Humility and empathy.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about just that immediate emotional reaction. I think that overcoming that is something that a lot of people struggle with.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Well, I think that's right. You know, I, look, I, I, I think-
- CWChris Williamson
You know, it's nice in the, i- in the, the, the stark contrast with, with the nice perspective.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I, I don't disagree. Um, price it in as the cost of doing business. Cost of doing business, you put things on the internet, people are gonna say mean stuff to you.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And fighting against that is like King Canut trying to stop the tide. But that s-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Do you know fighting?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Good. You know some people like, like getting punched in the face?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. (laughs) I'm friends with Tim Kennedy, yes.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I like getting punched in the face. That's my answer.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I don't know what else to tell you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. It's part of your nature.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I was t- It's my nature. I was shit on my whole life. I was a Russian immigrant.
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
I came over here. Russia was the bad guys when I came here. So I got shit on in grade school. I didn't speak English. When I moved... I, this is a story I tell very rarely, very rarely. I think I've done it once or twice. I'm going there. I often talk about I lived in Que- people that really know me, my story is I went from Queens to Edison, New Jersey, Edison, New Jersey where I became a Jets fan and an entrepreneur. But it's not fully true. Queens to Dover for a year, then Edison. Dover doesn't make my story. I never understood why, but I'm starting to tap into it. It was bad. Because I didn't speak English and because I went outside a lot, I got picked on a lot. And it was a rough neighborhood. I remember one story, that's the main story I remember of that era, where I saw the kid pee in the Pepsi cup, like, by the tree. And they came over and the f- seven of them bullied me to drink it. I was five, five. And I kinda, like, tried, like, if I rem- I don't, it's very blurry. I mean, it's 43 years ago. But like, I didn't speak English. Obviously, when you're an animal, like a human, at five, you know what's happening. But like, then I was a terrible student. I was Ds and Fs. And this was the '80s. There was no political correctness. My teachers literally would look me in the face... These are grownups. They're your teachers, you look up to them. They're like, "You are a loser. You're dumb. You're gonna fail. You're gonna be a garbage man." Then I also loved sports. I played sports all the time. Do you know what happens when you play sports? You lose a lot. You win sometimes, but you lose a lot. Video games, this, and then I sold stuff. I did lemonade stands. I would sit on Tingley Lane in Edison, New Jersey as a nine-year-old and I would watch millions... mil- let me just take a step back. I would see hundreds of cars drop by and not stop for my sign, and occasionally get one. I live life under the mindset of it's all shit, but it doesn't matter. The shit doesn't matter. It's the sunshine, the occasional sunshines that is everything. And I think people live the reverse. A little ounce of poopy makes them cry 'cause they're soft.... 'cause they're not hard enough, because they're not loving themselves. I love myself too much to give a about you. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't wanna be delusional. I don't wanna be living in my own ego s... I respect other opinions, I internalize for processing other opinions, but I have no interest in putting your subjective opinion about me above my opinion above me. That's how I deal with it.
- CWChris Williamson
Neediness occurs when you place someone else's opinion of you above your opinion of you.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Period. I don't put my parents' opinion above me. I don't even g-... if I'm not gonna do that with my parents, who I love the most, who built me, if I'm not putting my mom's opinion about me above me on me, how the am I gonna do that about Charlie or Rick or Susan or Hasim? You.
- 1:13:57 – 1:19:33
What Drives Gary?
- CWChris Williamson
I'm interested in what drives you now.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
I get that when there's a point to prove-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
W- Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that when you're a, a, an immigrant, that when you've been picked on, that when you've been told that you're a loser-
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
But you know what's funny? You know what's funny? My, my, my k- spirit doesn't come from that chip on the shoulder-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GVGary Vaynerchuk
... even though I just spoke with passion about it. Mine's about curiosity of w-... I like the game. I'm curious in a wild... I would've loved to have been a professional athlete. I'm so sad I wasn't. That would've really, really satisfied me, because the data was there. If I was a running back in the NFL, I would've been... it would've been over, and I would've ranked 97th in career rushing yards, 400th in career touchdowns, right? Uh, 18th in receptions by a running back, and I could've, like... I would've enjoyed that. I would've been like, "Ah, good for Barry Sanders. He was better than me," and, like, "You, uh, Ricky Williams. I was better than you." That's what drives the shit out of me in entrepreneurship. I love this game of brand building and business building. It... you know, as a... w-... I'm talking what drives me as a, as a professional.
Episode duration: 1:54:13
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