Psychology's Lessons For Coping With Stress - Dr Samantha Boardman | Modern Wisdom Podcast 358

1. 0:00 – 0:22

   Intro

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman0:00

      ... the other sort of backdoor intervention that I've always found to be unbelievably powerful is putting yourself in a position of adding value to someone else. It's unbelievably empowering, it puts you in the position of being a giver. Like, what advice would you give to somebody in this moment? It's also a wellspring of motivation. (wave crashes)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      You're a practicing psychiatrist. What

2. 0:22 – 8:00

   Recovering From Lockdown

   1. CWChris Williamson0:22

      have been some of the most common trends that you've seen over the last year?

   2. SBDr Samantha Boardman0:27

      Interestingly, at the very beginning of the pandemic, I was really worried about some of my patients who have a lot of anxiety. And here's what happened, is a lot of them felt unbelievably prepared for the pandemic. They told me that they were giving advice to their f- their, their worried, well friends who, you know, typically would say to them, "Why are you so anxious? What worries you all the time?" You know, "You should come out more." And it was really interesting that they, I think, they had a lot of strategies that they used. They had a lot of, you know, they would use CBT, they sort of knew how to manage their anxiety, and so they found themselves in this position of being advice-givers, and that their experience was sort of helping somebody else. And as one of my patients said to me, like, "You know, I've been doing this all my life. Like, I've been ready for this, you know, for the past 20 years, and so I'm, you know, ready to go." And, and I think that that was a surprise, for sure, um, you, you know, in giving them sort of some strength. But, but of course, I mean, uncertainty was obviously what was really difficult for people. But what I try to work with them on is how certainty is such an illusion anyway, and what we sort of imagine our lives, and being able to predict what tomorrow's going to be. So, I, I, my hope is that emerging from this, that there has been some growth, some focus on, you know, what has one gained, um, in it, and even some, you know, post-traumatic growth is that we've actually seen. I, I don't th- you know, you can only really talk about post-traumatic growth in, afterwards, um, as an outcome, and I think we're very much mid-pandemic right now, so it's hard to, you know, look at, we can't really say in, in retrospect. But I've had them sort of working what are the ways, what are the factors that contribute to post-traumatic growth, and we can get into that, or we could, um, we can talk about that later.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:23

      What about lockdown shame? Have you seen any people feeling like they should've, could've, would've done more, "I haven't been as productive as I, as I ought to have been"?

   4. SBDr Samantha Boardman2:35

      There's been so much of that, like regret, and there's nothing worse than sort of that guilt, um, like, you know, that, that sh- you know, "Why didn't I manage, you know, learn how to speak Mandarin? Why didn't I, you know, learn how to, uh..." Somebody on your podcast was saying they'd like climbed Mount Everest on their staircase or something. I mean, what an accomplishment. But, you know, I think a lot of people think, "God, I just did nothing, you know, and I didn't get anything done." But that has so much to do with the way our brains work, is that we're, we're so good at noticing what is left undone. Right? Like, we're so good at seeing what we haven't completed. And there was a researcher in Vienna in the 1930s, um, uh, Dr. Zeigarnik, who noticed that when waiters were working in, in restaurants and serving tables, they, you know, had an amazing ability to remember the orders, the multiple orders that were open. And though what they, once an order was completed and people had paid the check and left, it would just be obliterated from their memory. They had no idea, like if you said to them, "What did those people have again?" they would have no idea. But they could remember the orders that were sort of half-complete, like, "That person still needs a coffee, that one needs some cake." And so what this is, is our, we're, we're so good at remembering sort of what's undone, but not particularly good at remembering what we've accomplished. And so, I mean, I think this can work for us and against us too, and it can work for, you know, against us when it comes to regret, like, "Why didn't I do this?" Or, "I had on my to-do list to write that screenplay, to get in shape, to quit smoking," and all those things. But we're really bad at focusing on what we have completed. And again, that's an attentional deployment issue, right? I mean, it's like how, what, what are you seeing? If you do sort of ask yourself to remind yourself, like, "What did I check off that list today?" And I think that can sort of help people just getting through the pandemic. You know, maybe, did you, you know, did, did you speak more to your kids than you ever have before? Did you, like, deepen your relationship with your spouse during this period? Like, what, what, maybe, did you accomplish? And I think refocusing attention is a really big part of that.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:46

      It's gotta be so conscious though, right? Like, you're not going to do that just on a whim. You're not going to remember that you spoke to your kids a little bit more or got to spend some more time with your spouse, but forget the fact that you didn't get in shape or didn't learn Mandarin. Like, it's got to be quite effortful.

   6. SBDr Samantha Boardman5:05

      Well, that's something I find, just find to be so interesting about, like, how our brains work anyway, is how our, our inability to sort of clock the good stuff. And we, you know, unless you're sort of effortful about it, and there's this wonderful, I think, philosopher at the University of Chicago, he calls it "delight hunting." And unless you're actually registering things that are beautiful or, you know, sort of interesting, they'll just sort of pass through you and they'll sort of, you won't even filter them. But if you even just write it down, and like, "Wow, that was sort of a cool bird I just saw," or like, "That tasted so good, that thing I just ate," th- and you share it with somebody else, it does shift. It becomes this uplift. And we know that positive emotions kind of help buffer, you know, we're talking about a lot of, like, hassles and things like that. When you just experience those positive emotions, you do have, like, a different level, like a scaffolding against just the annoyances that are just flying at you every day.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:00

      Doesn't Rick Hanson say something similar to that in Hardwiring Happiness?... I'm sure that he talks about the fact that when you do something nice or that you're proud of, you need to sit with it in your mind for 10 seconds, and that that actually is long enough to lay down the myelin sheaths around the neural pathways. And then over time, it actually becomes easier to be more and more grateful. But yeah, I mean, here's a perfect example. Think about the last thing that you didn't complete and how long you ruminated over that. And then think about the last thing that you did complete, and think about how fleetingly you allowed that sensation to occur. It was more like a relief than pleasure. Whereas on the other side, it's more like guilt or shame as opposed to encouragement. So the bad things are always felt much more harshly, and they last longer. And then the good things are so much more brief, uh, uh, and they don't have as much impact.

   8. SBDr Samantha Boardman6:56

      No, and so how do we sort of refocus our attention to... and to be more deliberate about it? Because it just won't sit with us. I mean, I can tell you about the thousand things I'm bad at. You know, you go and you have a conversation with your, you know, boss or your manager, and they'll tell you, you know, some pretty nice things. The only thing you'll remember is the criticism. And that's just how our brains work. And in some ways it can be kind of, you know, productive too. It's sort of... that's, you know, knowing what's unfinished, like that unfinished business is maybe what you... what does... what will motivate you, um, to focus on. And so maybe you won't procrastinate as much. But I think being deliberate about delight is really, really important, and, and sharing it with someone else, because then it does imprint somehow, I think, on your brain. I think it is the myelin sheaths that it... it's, it, it's creating a memory of it going beyond that fleeting moment, because otherwise we're just tumbleweeds. We're just kind of being blown about by all these other winds and, and sort of at the mercy of our, you know, brains that are afraid of anything negative. So, um, yeah, I'm really interested in how do you clock delight.

3. 8:00 – 15:31

   What Are Micro-Stressors?

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman8:00

   2. CWChris Williamson8:00

      What are micro-stressors?

   3. SBDr Samantha Boardman8:03

      Micro-stressors are a really potent form of stress, and I think we tend to ignore them. They're the everyday, like hassles and frustrations, like the... just those annoyances that you can't control. It's the traffic jam, it's your spilled coffee. It's just those irritations. And, you know, we often think that the... it's really like the big life events that are the most distressing, um, to us and that take the most out of us and the biggest toll. Well, it turns out that actually we're pretty resilient to most of those, to loss, to change, to inflection points. And most of the research suggests that we're, we're, we, we recover, we bounce back from those. Even, um, for instance, after 9/11 in, in New York City, there was an expectation that people would have post, um, you know, traumatic stress disorder, and there'd be a huge amount of resources that were earmarked for treatment. Turned out six months later, it was minimal. And so we know that, that resilience is actually the default, not, um, to those big life events, but to those little stuff, that accumulation of those micro-stressors that happen every single day, they, they accumulate, they grow. And look, nobody's bringing you a casserole because you got stuck in a traffic jam, right? Like, nobody's like, "Oh, tell me more about your delayed flight. That sounds so interesting." So I think you don't have the social support around it. Um, but... and all these studies show that those little hassles and micro-stressors add up so much and take the biggest toll on your physical health and also on your mental health. Cardiovascular, um, takes a cardiovascular toll, but also on your, um, immune system. Like they know, uh... it's, uh, I think it's at Carnegie Mellon University, um, it's Dr. Cohen there, and he'll take the flu virus and, you know, to his poor graduate students, they get, you know, on a Q-tip, they get the flu virus stuck up their nose. And, and you know, then he measures, you know, puts them basically in a, like, hotel room and measures who comes down with the flu and who doesn't. Well, during periods of stress, like before exams and, um, you know, when they're sort of stressed out, they're much more likely to come down with the symptoms of the flu, to feel worse, like their, um, feelings are worse about it. And even the poor grad students have to measure their tissues with the amount of snot inside them. And that sort of determines how, how, you know, their... how, how symptomatic they are. But when they've just come back from vacation and this happens, they don't feel like... they, they are much more l- less likely to get sick. So I think those, those who have a lot of daily stress in their lives, um, you know, even after watching, like, a football game or something and your team loses, you, you might... you're actually also still more vulnerable to catching a cold. But also people who report more stress in, in their daily lives are much more likely long term to have, to have depression or anxiety. So I, I feel that it's something that we don't pay enough attention to. And instead of the big R resilience that, that is our sort of default, I think we need more little R resilience, um, to deal with the micro-stressors.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:05

      Seems quite counterintuitive that I think I would need quite a bit of convincing to believe that compounding coffee spills over a period of time would e- would equate to a divorce. But what I'm going to guess is that most of the big challenges that you come up against, the loss, the financial problems, the job changes, the vast majority of those are going to be either out of your control or only sort of analogously within your control. And that means that actually the way that you do deal with the coffee spills and all of the rest of it is going to give you perhaps a little bit more in the tank so that you can deal with the big life events when they come.

   5. SBDr Samantha Boardman11:43

      I think exactly what you're saying, like, like what's in the tank? Because, because we know even with trauma or even with everyday stress, it's your perception of it. It's not act- the event itself, it's how you experience it to be... Do you... is this, uh, um, you know, something that's truly... Like, not everybody will have the same response that you will. And I, um, had a patient years ago who had a lot of anxiety and, um, he... uh, uh, uh, sort of performance anxiety. And he had been asked to, you know... he'd been promoted and he needed to give talks every week to his, um, to his staff. And he-... he would say the worst thing would happen to me. You know, whenever the, every, like, Monday, like, you know, I'm just sweating, my heart's racing, I just can't breathe, I've got, like, these beads of sweat pouring down my face, my ha- palms are all sweaty and shaky. It's just the worst thing ever. And one day, he was watching Bruce Springsteen on, like, a talk show, and he was, Bruce Springsteen's being asked, like, "What's it like to perform in front of 20,000 people?" And Bruce says, "You know, it's just the best feeling. You know, my heart's racing, you know, my hands get all clammy and sweaty, my knees are shaking, you know, I've got these butterflies in my stomach, and I know it's my body telling me that I am ready to rock." And so you have these almost identical physiological experiences and yet completely different interpretations of them. And so, it really w- was sort of this insight for my patient at the time, thinking, "Well, wait a minute, like, maybe is this my, like, information instead from my body." And, and noticing how that interpretation or perception of something makes it stressful or not, and then also having, as you say, that fuel in the tank. Like, have you slept well? Are you moving? Are you eating well? You know, did you have an fight with your spouse on the way out the door this morning? You know, or, or what are you doing to kind of create that scaffolding and that buffer around you?

   6. CWChris Williamson13:40

      Is that what you mean when you say discomfort is data?

   7. SBDr Samantha Boardman13:44

      Absolutely. You know, I'm, I, I, I study positive psychology. I, you know, have a degree in psychiatry and I went to medical school, but then I studied positive psychology. But I'm not, I, I don't, not a big believer, believer in the, like, the rainbows and unicorns. Like, some stuff sucks. And, you know, I, I think there's an intolerance, uh, right now, of negative emotions. There's sort of like, well, you've gotta just, gotta either treat it, take a, we got a pill for that, or, you know, um, people don't wanna really hear about it in some way. So, it's so important, I think negative emotions are so valuable and to even ... It's the only way you learn, also, like if you, there are interesting studies looking at people who just, like, kind of don't process it and just kind of sweep it under the rug and move on. Like, they don't learn from them, and if you actually want to change and grow and, um, and sort of at least grow in the right direction, you've got to be processing these negative emotions and feeling what you feel. There's a, you know, w- when, there's a lot of research right now looking at granularity, so you don't just, like, try not to just look at, like, an overwhelming feel of, like, not good. Like, what specifically are you feeling right now? Can you put that into words? Is there an amazing word that does this for you? Like, I don't speak German, but German has amazing words for everything that I think the English language fails miserably at. But once you can pinpoint that thing, it becomes a little bit less overwhelming. It's less personal, it feels less pervasive and less permanent, and, um, you can actually then sort of narrow it down, put that spotlight on it, and now say, "Okay, now what?" Like, what's the action you're going to take about it? And it's less paralyzing, um, I think than when you just have that overall feeling of badness, because I think we, we have a lot to learn from negative emotions. It's, they're very helpful. I'm a big fan.

4. 15:31 – 19:52

   Leaning Into Discomfort

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman15:31

   2. CWChris Williamson15:31

      Sam Harris has a thought experiment where he talks about reframing an experience that's going on within the body or within the mind, and he says, um, imagine that you've just completed a workout, a hard, high-intensity interval session or something, and your heart rate's high and your body's u- unbelievably hot, super uncomfortable, you're sweating everywhere, you're panting, you can't breathe, you're red in the face, you want to lie on the floor. If that just happened spontaneously as you were sat in your car, you would feel terrified. You'd think, like, "I'm having a heart attack. This is, there is something unbelievably wrong here." And yet people go to the gym literally to chase that feeling. That's what they're after. So if that doesn't show that framing is, is everything and that leaning into discomfort ... Like, one of the mantras that I've learned over the last year is that the, the reason that you're here is for the discomfort. So, when you feel that, just reminding yourself, "Look, this is why you're here." When you're in the gym and your legs start to burn, this is why you're here. When you're training and you start to run out of breath, this is why you're here. When you're doing a, a, an assignment for university or completing a presentation for work and it gets difficult, that's the reason that you're doing it. That is the proximal zone of development. That's you pushing the boundaries of what you can do. It's getting beyond your current... If all it was was comfort, there would be no growth. But inevitably, the, the first reflex response to something that's uncomfortable is, "I don't like this. I want it to stop. I'm tired, stupid, dumb, not fit enough, not smart enough, not clever enough, not er- erudite enough," whatever it might be. "I don't have the things, the requisite skills. I, it should be easier." But when you concede, okay, discomfort isn't just a bug, it's a feature-

   3. SBDr Samantha Boardman17:15

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:16

      ... and on top of that, it's why you're here, like, you're literally here to get the discomfort, that's the signal of growth. As soon as you realize that, I think everything changes. Caveat to that, I'm still really dramatic during every workout that I ever do. I still procrastinate-

   5. SBDr Samantha Boardman17:31

      (laughs) .

   6. CWChris Williamson17:31

      ... all the time. My point is that when you can remain metacognizant enough to allow that to happen, it's, it's a game changer.

   7. SBDr Samantha Boardman17:40

      Well, yes, and I think that, um, (laughs) I think one of your podcasts I was listening to was just the act of standing in line, like what's more painful than that? And just, like, the thought of just standing in lines and waiting without even, even when you get to the front, you just go to the back again. But actually, I think that's where you sort of see it as all a process and not so outcome-driven. And, you know, I'm thinking of Kelly Lambert, who does this cool, um, research at the University of Richmond, and she studies rats, that we have an uncanny resemblance, I think, to rats in many ways. And when you, you give rats, apparently they love Froot Loops. It's, like, the greatest rat delight in the world. And so some rats, she, um, like, sort of buries this Froot Lo- Loop once a day under all their bedding, and so they have to, like...... you know, go rummaging through this, their, their beds to get it. And it, it takes work, it's a little bit uncomfortable, but they push themselves to do this. And then the other rats, they're just basically handed their Froot Loop on a silver platter, and she calls them her trust fund rats. And so when these rats, though, are challenged in some way, uh, like they're put in a different kind of cage, or they're asked to swim, apparently rats don't really like to swim that much but, um, they, they will do it, the trust fund rats immediately give up. Like they have no, like they're just like, "Ugh, I'm done. I can't figure it out." Whereas the ones who have been used to sort of being uncomfortable and rummaging, and putting this sort of effortful behavior into getting their Froot Loop are much more likely to persevere. Like they try many more times to, to get into, to, to, to reach the Froot Loop and stuff. And so I think there is, um, maybe we are, we have a lot to think about with the rats, but actually putting ourselves in those places of, of discomfort and unease. And look, it's, it's not where, like, I think our society goes, and certainly, like, in child, um, care these days, it's all about, like, "Are you comfortable?" It's like the helicopter, the snowplow, the, um, anything to avoid discomfort or stress. And, you know, as we know, there's, I mean, there, there is a good amount of stress that, um, Yerkes-Dodson curve, where you look at, like, when are peak performance is when we're a little bit stressed out. Um, so, so, uh, like, what's the right dose? It's obviously different for different people, and it has a lot to do with what you said, filling up your tank to begin with.

5. 19:52 – 26:35

   How To Cope With Bad Days

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman19:52

   2. CWChris Williamson19:52

      What can people do if they're having a crap day? Let's say that someone's just ... It's been micro-stressor after micro-stressor, the coffee, the dog poo, the, on the shoe, the bad conversation with the boss. What should people do?

   3. SBDr Samantha Boardman20:07

      Well, I think your, s- sometimes our inclination in those moments, I know mine is, is just to be like, "I need to order pizza or have, like, a bottle of wine, and I'm going to cancel my plans with friends and, you know, binge-watch TV and stay up late at night." I'm constantly amazed by our ability to undermine our wellbeing and actually do the very opposite of the thing we sh- you know, would, would actually would make us feel strong in those moments. But that's exactly when it is those moments to think of, like, "Okay, what would make me feel strong here?" And it is usually, like, what are you gonna eat for dinner tonight? Are you, do you really need to have that drink, you know, or that vodka at this moment? Go to the gym. You know, but make it, you know, we know with behaviors that whatever it is that you want to do, make it easier on yourself. Lower the activation energy to, um, for the thing that you wanna do. If you already have your sneakers on, you know, if you already are, like, you know, you've got, like, your, your gym clothes on, you're much more likely to go, or your gym bag's packed to go to the gym than if you have to, like, go through the motions of getting it. Google had done that cool experiment. They used to give all of the, I think, employees, you could have, like, endless access to M&M's, and so you were like, apparently p- people at Google were eating so many M&M's, and they were displayed in these beautiful, like, glass jars in every kitchen, like, or on every floor. And so they w- they kind of had this M&M problem. They're like, "What do we do?" And they had these behavioral scientists come in and they said, "Well, if you get rid of the M&M's, people will be really pissed off and there'll be a mutiny. But why don't we just put the healthier snacks a little bit lower down on the shelves, and, um, you know, so they're kind of within reach. And let's put those beautiful M&M's in an opaque container, really, like, out of reach." And people are so lazy to begin with. So, you know, it just decreased, I think, M&M consumption by about 70%. So, whatever is the behavior that you want to do at the beginning of the day, you can't rely on motivation. We know motivation comes and goes. You might be, like, in the morning, you're so motivated to go to the gym and eat well and do all those things that you wanna do. But at the end of the day, you might not be. So make it easier to do the behavior you want, and then you're much more likely to follow through with it.

   4. CWChris Williamson22:08

      What was that Harvard study about different activities that reduce stress?

   5. SBDr Samantha Boardman22:14

      Oh, that was a great, I mean, I was fascinated by this. You know, so in medical school, uh, you know, I was so focused on what was going wrong with people. And that's what you do. It's all about diagnosing people's problems and kind of coming up with them. And, like, "Here, I've got a medication for that." Or, "Maybe you should talk to somebody." You, you know, percuss, um, uh, you know, lungs, you palpate prostates, you auscultate abdomens. But, and then in medical school, I did the same thing. Like, you, you

   6. CWChris Williamson22:38

      Palpate prostates.

   7. SBDr Samantha Boardman22:40

      ... as like a, like a-

   8. CWChris Williamson22:40

      Pal- palpate prostates. That's ...

   9. SBDr Samantha Boardman22:40

      You palpate prostates, truly. That is something

   10. CWChris Williamson22:43

       I mean, palpate is the most...

   11. SBDr Samantha Boardman22:44

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson22:44

       It's, that's the most diplomatic way that I've ever heard to talk about putting your finger up someone's bum.

   13. SBDr Samantha Boardman22:49

       (laughs) Well, it's actually, they hire actors, God bless them, to come in and let like, a s- like, a class of medical students come in and practice on them. I mean, they, I mean, I guess-

   14. CWChris Williamson23:01

       Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.

   15. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:01

       ... they maybe have like three people in the class. (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson23:02

       Actors come in.

   17. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:04

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:05

       What, and everybody gets to have a go?

   19. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:08

       I think actually there were three of them the year that I did it. But yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson23:11

       How big's the class?

   21. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:12

       So, you know, 'cause ... Oh, it was 100 people. And they were-

   22. CWChris Williamson23:16

       So that's 33.3 fingers-

   23. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:18

       ... and you had

   24. CWChris Williamson23:18

       ... per person. You are kidding me.

   25. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:20

       They were very good sports.

   26. CWChris Williamson23:20

       This isn't, this, this isn't true.

   27. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:23

       They were really good sports. And we had to sort of go through, like, the role-playing of, like, "How are you? It's nice to see you today." (laughs) And it was, um-

   28. CWChris Williamson23:30

       Oh my god.

   29. SBDr Samantha Boardman23:31

       That's how you do it.

   30. CWChris Williamson23:32

       Imagine-
6. 26:35 – 32:00

   How Not to Deal With Stress

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman26:35

   2. CWChris Williamson26:35

      Just having a look at the, at the chart you've got here for that study, so 94% of people, uh, reported the effectiveness, the most effective way to reduce stress levels, uh, was regularly spending time outdoors, 94%. Regularly spent time on a hobby, 93%. Regularly exercised, 89%. Regularly spent time with a pet, 87%. I can completely see that. Regularly meditated or prayed, 85%. That's surprising. Um, I wouldn't have put that so high. Regularly spent time with friends and family, 83%. So yeah, regularly got a full night's sleep, 76%. So yeah, it's just, um, it's like, it's so unsexy, so many of the solutions to little stresses and stuff like that. What do you think... What are some of the ways that people get it wrong? Like how do people deal with stress r- really poorly, in your experience?

   3. SBDr Samantha Boardman27:27

      You know, I think our, uh, that, that's a negative coping. It is sort of typically like reaching for that drink or I think some of those lifestyle factors, um, that, that really give us that, you know, immediate like sense of relief or even sense of control. But ultimately, like la- I always think of it, it's like kind of cotton candy for the soul. Like it's just the stuff that actually makes you feel horrible. And the, I mean, I agree with you, and there's a lot of, um, like a lot of this stuff is super unsexy. Like, "Oh, go outside," or whatever, and, but the, you've got then like sometimes I think the wellness industry that's telling us, "Well, you can download it, you can, you know, juice it, you can buy it." You know, and that all of these things, like these are the solutions to your problems, and you need to eat, pray, love your way, um, to that place of strength. And a lot of these solutions are actually available in your everyday life. Like they're there, it's just a question of are you taking them? Are you kind of living those values? What are you doing that are kind of, what are you doing to create those uplifts in your daily life? And so you, you don't have to pay for it. You don't have to move to India and, and meditate. Um, but you can, even if going outside, I mean, you know, there's a lot of evidence that we have nature deficit disorder, NDD, and that we are not spending enough time outside, and I think our, our brains, like we are biophilic. Like we need to be outside, and I think in nature, and I think in Japan they call it forest bathing. It's just that sense of being outdoors and, you know, rumination, you and I were talking about that, is an on-ramp to depression. When you just have that, you know, almost like you're chewing your cud like a cow. Like you're just keep thinking about like, "Why did I say this? Why, you know, why did I do this?" And one of the best interventions for rumination is being outdoors. Um, so I think that that and being just in a green space is so helpful for all of us. We know that patients who are recovering from surgery, um, do it much more quickly when they have a window to look out at and a tree. They require less pain medication. Uh, and we really underestimate even like kids who go to school through a park, um, and spend time outdoors rather than like in a car or a bus have fewer symptoms of like atten- attentional issues as reported by their teachers. So I think any way you can increase that time you spend outdoors and even have maybe some proximity t- to all, um, is really interesting. Looking at studies of natural language with like people when they're in like the center of a park, and they're, and they're talking, the, the, the words they use are much happier. They're, they're, they're the equivalent of what the researchers said of what people use on Christmas, um, when they're actually in a natural space like that. So, I think that that is a really powerful intervention. I mean, I literally prescribe going to parks, um, and spending time outdoors, and especially during COVID. It's astonishing. Yale did this study, um, last year. It was before the pandemic. Uh, and I think the average, uh, American spends less than, I think it was four hours outside a week. And it was just astonishing how little we spend out- time outdoors. People want to, but they just don't do it, you know, and I think all of our entertainment is indoors and on screens and stuff. So, I, I think, again, just trying to kind of get outside, and we know that from all these studies, like s-... sports people do, like they, uh, the, the, that they do, when they do it with a friend and they do it outdoors, they have fewer mental health days.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:50

      Do you have any idea what the optimal dose of being outdoors is, or where this sort of curve begins to kick in? Is half an hour enough? Is an hour enough?

   5. SBDr Samantha Boardman30:58

      I think 20 minutes is enough.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:00

      Okay.

   7. SBDr Samantha Boardman31:00

      You know, and I think sometimes it sounds really overwhelming, like, "Oh, I've got to go outside for three hours," you know? I mean, of course not, and that's unrealistic. But I think any time you can, and again, it's, like, gets down to, like even you'll be, like, sitting at your desk and thinking like, "Oh, I can't do this. Why should I go outside for 20 minutes?" Um, and the only way I, uh, that I even get myself to go outside is often if I know I'm meeting somebody outside, and they're going to be there, and I'm just going to be, like it's just not being a flake. Like, how do you get yourself to go somewhere? And I think when you, you pair it with something else, and you don't, like, e- or you're like, "I'll," it's, the, I'll say it's the only time I can, (laughs) you know, listen to the Chris Williamson podcasts is if I'm outside. You know, like, if you do it with something that's temptation-bundling, um, and when you do the thing that you want to do, and you pair it with something that you don't really wanna do, like go outside, you're much more likely to do it.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:46

      Same reason for getting a dog, right? You've got to walk the dog. Dog needs walking. Walking is outside. Sometimes you could s- go walk the dog with somebody else that also owns a dog. Playing a team sport, that's outside, that's exercise, that's other people, that's socializing.

7. 32:00 – 37:28

   Escaping a Downward Spiral

   1. CWChris Williamson32:00

      Yeah, downstream from that is interesting. So, you're talking about sort of these uplifts and these upward spirals here. What about if someone's on the other side of the curve? What if someone's having a downward spiral, and they've got sort of negative rumination? Have you got, uh, any suggestions about how they can pattern-interrupt that and kind of have a reset and then bounce back out?

   2. SBDr Samantha Boardman32:20

      I mean, one of the best interventions that we know for mental health that I was not taught in medical school or in psychiatry residency is movement. You know, there was a study done in 2009 at Duke, where they had half the people who had mild symptoms of depression, um, th- that were given a medication, I think, um, it might have even been Zoloft, and the other half were given a prescription to walk on a treadmill for 30, um, minutes, I think four days a week. Everybody felt better within about six weeks, but nine months later, the, the treadmill group was less, much less likely to have relapsed. And I think it's such a powerful intervention is giving, um, is, is movement, and ideally, I'd say being outside. That study was on a treadmill. But it's so important to, to just move your body, and it's, it's hard to get yourself to do, and you might not be, feel like doing it. The other sort of backdoor intervention that I've always found to be unbelievably powerful is putting whatever, yourself in the position of adding value to someone else. You know, like what could you... The, the best, honestly, one of the best antidotes for stress is contributing to something else, doing something for somebody else. It's unbelievably empowering. It puts you in the position of being a giver. Like, what advice would you give to somebody in this moment? Um, and I think that that is an incredibly powerful way to feel like you have some sense of efficacy, right? Like, that you feel like whatever your experience is matters tremendously. It's also a, a wellspring of motivation. You know, when you ask people... You know, most people have the information that they, they need about how to lose weight or save money or, um, you know, do behaviors they wanna do, so you don't really need to educate them. And I think we spend too much time, from a public health perspective, focusing on, like, "Let's give these people information. Let's show them how to do it." And it's actually when, that, you know, if you ask them, like, "What advice would you give? Could you write that down?" Because, you know, you, you are, y- y- people then not only, I think, are the recipients of their advice better off, and they learn something, but also, they themselves, what, you kind of wanna walk your walk and stay true to your values and, and sort of do as you say. So, I, I find that's one of the best ways to increase your, um, you know, your, your, your sense of self-efficacy and also, like, your motivation. It's, you know... You know the marshmallow study of those kids when they were five years old? Actually, when, uh, a study done last year was looking at little kids who were saying, "Well, if you can do this, you, you have a partner. So, you, if you don't eat the marshmallow, um, then you and your partner both get another one." They, e- w- when they had that partner, they're much more likely to follow through, and I think, again, it just taps into your motivation when you're doing something with somebody, um, or for somebody else.

   3. CWChris Williamson34:59

      But a lot of people at the moment have got bullshit jobs. They've got things that they know probably is just crunching numbers. Maybe there's a robot that's coming down the pipe that's gonna take that off them within the next couple of decades. Maybe they don't feel connected with it. Perhaps they don't have a family yet, or perhaps they've struggled with breakups from families and stuff like that. What about these people? Like how, how are you supposed to add value when inherently the things that you feel like you do on a daily basis don't add that much value to you?

   4. SBDr Samantha Boardman35:29

      But I guess it really, and it gets down to, I mean, how are you framing that, whatever you're doing? I mean, I think we can think of Christopher Wren, the architect who would say, you know, when talking about building, um, the cathedral, saying, you know, "Are you..." You know, you ask three people, "What are you doing?" They're doing the exact same job. And, you know, one man says, "I'm laying bricks." One says, "I'm building a wall." One sells, "I'm build-" One says, "I'm building a cathedral." So, I think your mindset about whatever you're doing, uh, probably is adding value somehow to, you know, what people are doing. And I think we certainly saw that in the pandemic, of, you know, frontline workers who I think got tremendous, like, outpourings of gratitude that was so well deserved for, for, you know, the value that they add every single day to people's lives. But so maybe take a look at what you're doing. Is there a way? Do you s- is there any positive impact this has on anybody else? You know, looking at... I, I know that, um, studies looking at people who work in hospitals, if you just sort of, your job description limits you to, like, "Okay, I am a janitor, I'm on the housekeeping staff," or do you actually feel like you're part of this organization and part of the health of this institution, the health of these human beings? And, you know, people, I think, are much more invested in what they're doing. Um, but then outside of that, there's so many other ways you can add value in, in, in, in life, and you probably are adding value to other people's lives and maybe not even thinking about it. Um, and so I think being present in, in that way, and we often say like, "Oh, where's your motivation to do something?" Sometimes it's for someone else. I had this patient who was dying to quit smoking, and, you know, he had all the information. He knew...... all the reasons why he should quit smoking, and he could run faster, and it would be good for his health and he'd live longer. The only thing that got him to stop one day was he was at a, like a family meal with his nephew, and he was getting up to go outside and have a cigarette, and his nephew took like a breadstick and was like, "Can I come with you?" And pretended to start smoking too. And he was like, "That's it. I can't do this if I'm that role model for this kid." You know? So, I think we sometimes underestimate the impact we have on other people, for positively and negatively.

8. 37:28 – 47:30

   The Usefulness of a Persona

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman37:29

   2. CWChris Williamson37:29

      What's being un-you?

   3. SBDr Samantha Boardman37:32

      Well, (laughs) I think people ... we're told all the time you have to be yourself. Like, "Oh, be yourself. It's great." You know, "This is good advice." And I, I used to not love public speaking, and I would sort of, when someone would be like, "Oh, you're gonna get up in front of, like, you know, an audience, and the best thing, just be yourself and you'll be great. Like, go out there." And like, being myself, I would run out the door and like, you know, pass ... like set off the fire alarms. And so, being yourself isn't the best advice, 'cause A, who is the real you? Is there any true you that's in there? We're all in the process of becoming constantly. We're all changing, hopefully in the direction of goodness, um, that we can shape a little bit. But instead of, like, being yourself, what's the opposite of a thing that you feel like doing? What would that be? And I think that is, you were asking like, the, if somebody's having a really shit day, like, what do you ... Like, what's the opposite of a thing you feel like doing? Like, maybe that is going for a run. Maybe that is calling, you know, a friend of yours. Maybe that is showing up, um, you know, with your friends somewhere. And I think being un-you, and one way to kind of, you know, there's a lot of research around like what they call self-distancing. Like, when you're ... Somebody says to you like, "How are you feeling right now? You're having a really bad day. Tell me about it." And you're like, literally, like you sort of start stewing in it. "Well, I, you know, this is what happened and that's what happened." And you're sort of, you're rehashing it, and that leads to rumination. But when you can just like self-distance and say, you know, "How would a fly on the wall describe that?" Or, um, you know, "If you were talking to a friend, what advice would you give them?" Or, "What would your future self tell you to do in this moment?" Any opportunity you can have to sort of gain some distance. And one way of doing that, I think, is when you, you can be sort of un-you is by thinking, who's somebody you admire? What would they do in this moment? Because it can actually get you closer to the version of yourself you'd like to be. And I think we, we, we focus so much on like, uh, be authentic. And I ... Being authentic can sometimes bring out the worst in us. I mean, I know, like, it depends on like which version of ourselves we are. But, you know, there's studies looking at people asking them to be creative, imagining yourself to be a creative poet, you're much more likely to be creative. I mean, I think most people think of creativity as something like you're, you're creative or you're not. Uh, other studies looking at people who, you know, just even putting on an article of clothing, people were told to put on like a doctor's coat and to solve math problems. They are much more likely to persevere than if they think it's an art- artist's smock. So what's somebody ... I mean, we don't all need to go out and buy like, you know, superhero capes, but what's somebody who you admire ... What would Chris Williamson do right now? Like how could I, you know-

   4. CWChris Williamson40:00

      Oh God. Do not, do not propose that to people-

   5. SBDr Samantha Boardman40:03

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson40:03

      ... as something (laughs) as a strategy that they should take. But I mean, it's interesting, right? 'Cause th- there is a paradox going on here that being your true self, speaking your truth forward, finding what it is in you that you can resonate with the world, these are things that we champion. And yet, on the flip side of that, it, it does feel like there's something to fake it until you make it. The mamba mentality, which Kobe Bryant popularized. Beyoncé, she had a ... I, I can't remember what her alias was called, but she had like some super villain version of herself that was able to go out on stage and wasn't scared and wasn't worried and stuff like that. So there's definitely something going on here. I think that the, the distancing is, is probably part of it, that if you have a, a mode that you're able to step into where the limitations perhaps that plague your day-to-day life no longer exist, you do create a little bit of, uh, of distance between the two. I'd be very interested to see who is more effective long-term about whether or not the success rate of somebody that's more integrated, i.e. sort of real person is performing person, or somebody that's more detached and has these two sort of disparate versions. I'd be very interested to see sort of over time who ends up in a best, uh, in a better place, because I can see problems with both and I can see advantages for both, right? You're going to be able to siphon off some of the challenges and the difficulties that you have if you go mamba mentality mode. But, I wonder whether you're losing out on bleeding some of the lessons that you get from those challenges back across into your real life. I wonder whether you're kind of a- almost acting in contrast or in conflict with yourself sometimes, whether or not imposter syndrome is more likely to creep in because you don't feel like you when you're up on stage. That it's just Samantha Speaker as opposed to Samantha Boardman. You know, like, I, I wonder how that would play out. But in my experience, I would definitely say that considering yourself to be like the kind of person that you want to be when you're up against stresses, you know, what is the, the idealistic version of me, where I want to get to, what would that person do? And then when it comes to the more interpersonal stuff, like asking yourself questions, speaking to yourself how you would speak to a person that you're supposed to care about, is ... it's a superpower. Like, it literally is one of the best things that you can do. And you see, one of the questions I had people ask during lockdown when everyone was locked in and there was only a small number of things that they could do, "What would have had to have happened by the end of lockdown for you to look back on lockdown and consider it a success? Like, you've got the entire world at your disposal except for the fact that you can't leave your house. Like, what would it have to be?" And that question's so blindingly obvious, because you go, "Well ..." It's almost like, it's like I'm watching my own life play out in front of me, and then I just think, "What would it have to be?" And that question clears away so many of the challenges. And the same thing, treat yourself as if you are someone you're responsible for helping. Those two ways of framing things I think give us a lot of perspective.

   7. SBDr Samantha Boardman43:08

      Well, it gives such clarity, and I think in a way that maybe the, the idea of maybe being, like, sort of authentic and your true self, that you are, like, I think in those moments we, we have like cognitive flexibility and there, we're able to like, sort of... 'Cause we, we are multiple selves ultimately, you know, in, in our everyday lives. And it's funny you say that about that. I love that question you were asking people, like how did the pandemic have been a success. Uh, I kn- I know a lot of people and, and therapists do it, like at the beginning of each day if you ask your patients to write down like, you know, "Fast-forward to the end of today. What would have made today a success?" And write that down. Like, "Today I had an amazing conversation with my son." "I, you know, got this, this, and this done at work." "I..." You know. And so you can sort of look back on things. And I think we look at CBT as something that's sort of reframing in the past, but I think actually having a future orientation is really valuable for people too, and it's sort of like, "What are you looking forward to this week?" "How do you want to feel next time when you come in and see me in a session?" Like, "What do you feel, you know, what do you want to tell me about?" Um, and, uh, there's, uh, Gabriele Oettingen who's at NYU who's done sh- a, a lot of work on, you know, people who just think positive all the time. And she's German, and she's l- when she came to America she didn't understand. She's like, "Oh, this like think positive stuff, I don't get it. Is it really that helpful?" And she was really interested in, in, in like sort of teasing that out and opening, and people who just like thought positive were actually less likely to persevere and, you know, do the thing that they wanted to do. Like, "Oh, I'm gonna lose all that weight."

   8. CWChris Williamson44:41

      Viktor Frankl discovered Destiny.

   9. SBDr Samantha Boardman44:41

      Yes, 100%. So what are then... So she calls it, um... So how do you... You know, i- it's not just thinking like, "Oh, everything's gonna turn out well," this isn't the secret. It is then, well, you know, wh- what are, what are the things that are gonna get in the way of that? And so you actually, it's not just about like having some insight or thinking, like everything's gonna turn out really well, it's, "Okay, well how can I actually, you know, operationalize this?" And she calls it WOOP goals. W-O-O-P. And so the W stands for, okay, what's your wish? Like, "My wish is that I'm going to go to the gym this afternoon." Or, "My wish is I'm going to look at my phone less." And then what would be the outcome of that is the next, the first O. You know, and like how would you really feel? Like really think about, like close your eyes and think about how that would feel to you. And then the next O is, okay, then what is the obstacle? What's the thing that's going to get in the way of you doing that? And then the P is, okay, what's your plan? You know, and I think there you are closing that intention-action gap so you're much more likely to follow through. And this also mirrors like what's called behavioral activation therapy. It's like great, like you can have a patient have a lot of insight and be like, "Yeah, maybe this is why I've been depressed," or, "This is why I'm upset." And like bells can go off and light bulbs, and you can be like, "Oh my goodness, awesome." But I've had patients do that who have like renewed, like understanding and depth and like, wow, that's really illuminating, but it doesn't change their behavior. Like they're still the couch potato, and they're still, you know, maybe an insightful, you know, one.

   10. CWChris Williamson46:14

       Gotcha.

   11. SBDr Samantha Boardman46:14

       But they're still not doing anything. But so, so then okay, behavioral activation is more around, okay, like what actions are you doing to, you know, what plans do you wanna make to actually do the thing that you wanna do? And it really is like that's where their homework is, is behavioral activation stuff. So you are, you know, so, "I'm going to write up my resume." "I'm going to make that phone call." "I'm gonna do the follow-up call." So they're actually taking actions that then, you know, help them feel stronger. And I think those positive actions are... You know, when we feel paralyzed or like the world is, you know, w- we're like these tumbleweeds or going back to, you know, self-efficacy, if we don't feel, you know, the kind of the hat trick of maybe happiness is a sense of autonomy, competence, and relatedness. You know, that sense that like you have a say in what you do, is autonomy. Um, competence is that you can, you know, that you can prob- you can, you, what you try at you will succeed at. And relatedness is that sense of feeling loved. And I think all three are so important, and therapy sometimes lacks that competence, um, and autonomy part of it. You can feel related and loved and that you belong, but do you make, how do you make somebody or help them to feel competent and, um, that they have autonomy in their lives?

9. 47:30 – 55:37

   Therapy & Action

   1. SBDr Samantha Boardman47:30

   2. CWChris Williamson47:30

      Is that because it's easier to make people feel good in a therapy session, that it's a little bit more Chicken Soup for the Soul type things, insight as opposed to action? Like, it seems like a lot of the challenges that people come up against would be fixed by just focusing on action more than intention. And if action's an antidote to anxiety, which it seems like it is, like, just what's the one thing that you could do as opposed to the 10 things that you could think?

   3. SBDr Samantha Boardman48:02

      I mean, like at least just do one thing to close that intention-action gap. Like what's the, like what's the one thing to get you closer or do the one thing that em- like embodied vitality, like embodied resilience. Like what is that thing that you care about that you can do? It's funny, this old psychiatrist had, had once, he was a teacher of mine and he said, "What do you think the point of, you know, therapy is?" And I was like, "Oh, you know, so that's so, you know, you can like have a, you know, change your present." And he said, "Wrong." And someone else said, "Well, maybe it's so you can change your future." And he said, "No, wrong. The point of therapy is so you can change your past." Because we all have this like a story that we've been sticking to. We've got like the two-minute version, the 10-minute version, the hour-long version of it. But, you know, we, we get so, so like sort of tethered to this identity of like, you know, "My dad was a jerk." "My mom didn't talk to me enough." "My..." You know, whatever those stories that we tell and making, you know, realizing that probably there's some truth to it, but it, there isn't this, the, the, that, what, that story you've been telling might be a little bit distorted.... and sort of making peace with that. And I think it actually does free you up in some way to be thinking about your future, and it frees you up to take actions, because you don't feel like such a victim of all of these things that have come at you.

   4. CWChris Williamson49:23

      Why are people so resistant to change?

   5. SBDr Samantha Boardman49:28

      You know, it's, it's baffling, because, you know, I think it's, um, uh, uh, Sam Gilbert at, uh, at Harvard who al- says, you know, we're all, that, that we're all, we're human beings are works in progress, um, who un- who mistakenly think that we're fully formed and finished. And we're resistant to change, and yet we're changing constantly, you know. And so even when you have like couples in couples therapy, so you can say to them, like, "Just wait three months. He's probably gonna change a little bit. Like, don't you worry." 'Cause we're all changing, but I think we're passively changing, and we're not intentional about the way that we're changing. And it's obviously, l- looking back, you can see how much you've changed. I mean, you have changed, maybe not for the better, but you probably have changed. Looking forward, it's unimaginable how much you are going to change, but you will. So, will you be intentional about that change? Um, and I, I think, to me, that's sort of I, I hope what therapy does for people is kind of bending them in the direction of goodness. But change is terrifying. I mean, I think it's exactly what scares us. We have this illusion of certainty, and this is who I am, and this is what I do. People always tell me, like, "I am who I am." You know, they come to therapy with this like-

   6. CWChris Williamson50:35

      I, I fucking hate that sentence. Like that sentence from people drives me up the wall. It reminds me so much of the... Uh, I've got a chip on the shoulder about some of the, um, cultures of the places that I grew up. And hearing someone be so... They've, they've become a prisoner of their own pre-presumptions about their own life and about everybody else. Like, I remember once-

   7. SBDr Samantha Boardman51:01

      Totally.

   8. CWChris Williamson51:01

      ... I remember once I was, I was driving in this car, must have been when I was like s- 16 or 17, and it was a couple of lads that I went to college with or something. And the driver was a young, young kid, 17 or 18, just recently passed his test. We were going over a motorway in Middlesbrough, which is just a working-class town, famous for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK for a few years, uh, and not much else. And I remember him saying-

   9. SBDr Samantha Boardman51:26

      (clears throat)

   10. CWChris Williamson51:26

       ... "I'm never gonna leave Teesside, me. Best place in the world." And I thought, "You've been to Corfu once and then Southampton on a holiday. You haven't seen anything of the world." But somehow this person... And even then, I didn't really understand why, he just made me feel so ick. I just, I, I... it was such an awful feeling, and it stayed with me. You know, 17 years later, I've still got that story, because it, it struck me that, look, this, this guy is so small-minded and so closed off. And it wasn't because of a, a yearning, a, a, a justified virtuous yearning for familiarity. It wasn't for something that had run through in his mind, he'd seen the world and realized that home is where we a- where we want it to be. It was because of this sort of walled-off fear of change and this sort of denial-

   11. SBDr Samantha Boardman52:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson52:11

       ... that there was anything that the outside world could teach him. And this is how you get tall poppy syndrome in the UK, where people that decide to try and do different things, they get very quickly cut down. And, um, yeah, I hate that. I, I absolutely hate that sentence. It's... I mean, that must be... If I was a psychiatrist, I'd be... that would be my trigger word, if that happened. Like, this is the way I am, and it's the way that I'll always be. That would be my... That, that's the activation for what my Russian, uh, sub-, uh, secret agent subplot-

   13. SBDr Samantha Boardman52:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson52:38

       ... to, to activate.

   15. SBDr Samantha Boardman52:42

       It's, no, it's so, it's sad. And even like the idea of like, well, you can't teach, you know, old dogs new tricks. And I, I'm... Yes, you can, you know? And I'm always amazed by people who have sort of inflection points in their lives, and like at 50, they change jobs or they... You know? A- and I think when, when we see people often retire, that sense of just being unnecessary in the world, or they're not going to change or do anything more is really difficult. And we know people who are what they call like adventurers or continuers are far more fulfilled than those who just become observers or retreaters. And the, the... It's a... You are going to be changing, and to like unlock that, and it's such a, a sort of weird wall to hide behind, of like, "I am who I am." And it's really just like your habits and your preferences. That's all it is. It's illusion of, you know, this-

   16. CWChris Williamson53:33

       Imagine identifying with that. (laughs) Like, it's so crazy.

   17. SBDr Samantha Boardman53:37

       But it's safe, I mean, in a way. And, and I, I think that people come to therapy often with this like interest in they want, like they're, they, sort of, wanna change. But when you sort of push against those walls a little bit, they're like, "Oh, no, no, no, I am who I am." I, I'm a, you know, "I'm just not, you know, a relationship guy." I'm, you know, uh, like, "This is how I have fun," or, "This is, you know what, this is who I am." And it's such a, uh, a limited way in, you know, o- of looking at the world and looking at your life and not seeing your potential and possibility, not just for yourself, but also for the other people you spend time with, you know? 'Cause if you think like that about yourself, that's clearly how your, you know, your mindset is around how you see other people, like they are who they are. And I've, I've loved being wrong, you know? Like, there's been nothing better than to be wrong about stuff. And, you know, even, I think, like we live in this w- like world today where you, you know, you have to f- sort of like support one political candidate, or you have to think, you have to, like, join the narrative on something. And bring some, like, intellectual humility to something, and being willing to have your, like, mind changed. And I've had patients who, you know, I, I was a little bit more in that camp of, "Oh, people are who they are." Somebody who would, I'd seen, like in this revolving door, he had a serious alcohol problem, gone to rehab 1,000 times, um, and I was, you know, didn't really think he would make it past a certain age. And one day, I bump into him on the street, I haven't seen the guy in five years, and he's completely transformed. He looks different, he's healthy. And he looked at me, and he said, "You know what?" 'Cause I w- I was so, like just gobsmacked by this transformation. He said, "You know, Dr. Boardman, people change." (laughs) And I was like, "Tha- you know, thank you." A- a- and it's, it's, um...... it, it was actually a gift, i- him telling me that, because I think in those days, I used to be really stuck in that place of like, I could almost, like, look at somebody and come up with like a diagnosis. Like, I, I know the end of this movie. And, um, I think letting go of that uncertainty for myself and for others is really valuable.

10. 55:37 – 1:01:39

    Positive Psychology 101

    1. SBDr Samantha Boardman55:37

    2. CWChris Williamson55:37

       What ... Given the fact that you've studied positive psychology, what do you think more people need to know about that, about some of the takeaways from that field of work that they don't?

    3. SBDr Samantha Boardman55:49

       Yeah. I mean, I, I just think the, the focus on, um, what's wrong is just the way I think most of us do anyway. We talked about the psychotic eff- effect earlier. But actually, if you use your strengths in meaningful ways, and I think actually figuring out what your strengths are, you know, there are some, you can do these surveys and they're free, that just tells you exactly like, "Okay, your top strength is curiosity." It's, um, you know, uh, perseverance, it's, um, love of beauty, whatever that thing is. And then these studies that show that, okay, now use your strength in a new way every day for the next two weeks. So you can't just say like, "Oh, I'm curious, I'm going to," you know, you know, "read something different." Like, what's a new way? Maybe you're gonna take a different route home, maybe you're gonna try a different food, maybe you're gonna, you know, start learning a different language. Whatever those things are. I mean, I think that we're ... You know, in our lives, we're s- ... You know, we'll often say even like changes we wanna make, like, "Oh, I'd like to stop smoking. I wanna lose weight." It's these things that we're kind of trying to take away. But like, maybe I need to do more of things that I'm good at and that I love, that I'm interested in, and that, you know, that, that bring me, that bring me joy. And I think that that's something that was never ... You know, it was sort of considered like icing on the cake when I was in medical school. Like, "Oh, that's the stuff that social workers deal with." Like, "That's not something we really need to focus on in people's lives." But actually what is the stuff that brings them joy? What makes them feel strong, even, you know, how do you help them find even wellness within illness? And you can, you can do that. And interesting studies of people who have schizophrenia, there are some people who feel, you know, who feel that they're happy and fulfilled and in those lives. And I, I used to never believe that was even possible. And there was a, a psychiatrist who, she, she was a psychologist, a woman who had ... It was at Yale when she was, um, in school. And when she was, I think about 20, she had a psychotic break. And she, you know, I, I think was, uh, said stripped and was running naked through the Yale courtyards. And her parents were called and they said, "You've got to take her out of school. You know, she's schizophrenic. She will probably have, um ... Be hospitalized multiple times, but you need to reduce the stress in her life in every way." And, you know, um, uh, "You know, she'll probably d- ... Have her maybe do ..." Like, "She could be a cashier somewhere, but that's about it." And she said her parents accepted, um, her diagnosis, but refused to accept her prognosis in every way. So she went back to school, she graduated, had support, had, had medication, she went to Oxford, she got a degree in mental health law. Um, and she went on to become this champion of mental health law. She won a MacArthur Genius, um, Grant a few years ago, and she said that her ... Studying law has helped her so much and sort of figure out, you know, i- i- and become useful in the world. And that even when sometimes her voices get loud that she starts hearing, she'll use her legal training and say, "What evidence do you have for that?" You know, so I think that there's so, um ... You know, when we, when we can actually find usefulness for even the things that maybe hold us back and the things that we think of as, um, tremendous, uh, parts of like what, what we're weak at and what we're not good at, and we can apply actually what our strengths are in meaningful ways in the world and find meaningful work in some way like she did, that I think that's sort of what positive psychology can help you do, is find wellness within your illness. And, you know, I think sometimes people think of it as two rainbows and unicorns kind of thing, and it's really not. I mean, I think it's just looking at the opposite of what traditional psychiatry and medicine has been looking at, is making peop- ... Like, bringing people back to zero. What's your baseline? And that's like what I was good at doing. I'd be like, "Okay, someone would come into the emergency room," and like, "What's your baseline? Let me get you back here." And, uh, and I never, it never occurred to me that I could sort of, you know, get them beyond that or even kind of give them some of these other, uh, like interventions and other activities to work on that would help them feel good even within what's going wrong.

    4. CWChris Williamson59:47

       Robert Plomin, guy that I had on this Monday, Behavioral Genetics, he talks about the fact that our genes do not predetermine, but they do predispose-

    5. SBDr Samantha Boardman59:55

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson59:56

       ... and with that he says parenting ... Parents, they matter, but they don't make a difference. So you can't really get your kids to do anything. Your kids are going to do what your kids are going to do, and you can either support them in that or not. He makes this analogy about if you lost, uh, a child on a desert island and this child was going to be a musician, you'd find him sort of cracking out tunes on the back of coconuts and stuff like this. And having that faith in your own programming in a little way is, is very interesting. Having sort of faith in embodied knowledge, "This is something that I have a talent with. This is something that I feel compelled to do. This is something that I'm really, really strong, uh, strong at and, and sort of pulled toward. How can I utilize that?" Um, I still haven't worked out how I combine that with the fact that most of the values that I think we absorb, most of the programming that we get from culture and from society, is totally useless. Um, I don't know how to separate out the embodied stuff that we should have faith in and the programmed stuff that we get from society. But that's, um, that's a challenge. Samantha Boardman, ladies and gentlemen, Ready for Anything in the UK, or Everyday Vitality in the US. If people want to check out your stuff, where should they go?

    7. SBDr Samantha Boardman1:01:10

       Positiveprescription.com. Um, and I'm on Twitter and Instagram and all, all of social media.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:01:16

       Fantastic.

    9. SBDr Samantha Boardman1:01:17

       Thank you.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

        Thanks, Samantha.

    11. SBDr Samantha Boardman1:01:18

        Thank you so much for having me.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:01:20

        Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:01:39