Reducing Smartphone Addiction | The Light Phone

1. 0:00 – 2:03

   Why smartphone overuse feels inevitable (and why this episode exists)

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hi, friends. On last week's episode, we discussed how people can become addicted to social media, how cognitive biases that we don't know even exist in our brains are being manipulated by almost every (laughs) social media that exists, and how your phone is essentially a hacker in your pocket. The feedback this week's been absolutely fantastic. I've got so many tweets and messages from people saying that they are trying to reduce their phone time, and this has helped open their eyes to why it's not necessarily their fault. This week, I'm sitting down with Cai Wei, who is the CEO of thelightphone.com, and they think that they have developed a product which can enable us to spend more time off screen. I do think that there's an important question to be asked here, and it is, can we fix the problem of too much technology with more technology? That's a question you'll have to answer yourself. Also, I do want to say that I was not sponsored or paid to, uh, interview Cai, and I found him off my own back because of how interested I was in the product, and I wanted to hear his philosophy on it. I also want to say (laughs) that I'm considering buying one after my conversation with him, but that's completely independent. So, here we go. Cai Wei. (instrumental music) So, Cai, welcome to Modern Wisdom. Very good to meet you.

   2. KTKaiwei Tang1:55

      Thanks for having me. Please, sure.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:56

      Thank you very much for coming on, man. Um, you are CEO of The Light Phone.

   4. KTKaiwei Tang2:02

      Uh, that's correct, yes.

2. 2:03 – 2:59

   What The Light Phone is trying to be (not anti-tech, but more human)

   1. CWChris Williamson2:03

      So, I got introduced to the product from a friend who just linked me to it online, and I had a, I had a browse around, and it seemed it's a real, um, a real unique device as far as I can see. For those people who-

   2. KTKaiwei Tang2:18

      Thank you.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:19

      ... (laughs) those people who, uh, think that technology's sort of moving in one direction, which is more, more functionality, more, uh, integration with our lives, and you guys have come up with a product which kinda goes in the complete opposite direction. Do you think that would be fair to say?

   4. KTKaiwei Tang2:38

      Yeah, I see a lot of, uh, press, um, uh, mention us as anti-smartphone, but, you know, we always wanted to clarify that we're not anti-technology or anti-smartphone. We're just trying to, you know, be more human about how we approach technology, um-

   5. CWChris Williamson2:55

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KTKaiwei Tang2:55

      ... specifically the smartphone that we all have 24/7.

3. 2:59 – 6:19

   Origin story: designers in a Google incubator decide not to build another app

   1. CWChris Williamson2:59

      Yeah. I understand that. So, can you give us some background, background to yourself and how this concept came about?

   2. KTKaiwei Tang3:09

      Yeah, of course. So, um, my background is in design and design research. Um, four years ago, or wait, five years ago, um, I quit my job, um, and joined this incubator that Google started, uh, in New York specifically for designers, just because, you know, they f- th- they think that... The hypothesis that they think designers, uh, when you put designers on the founding table, that w- that product will create it with empathy, uh, can really create social impact. So, we were, uh, my co-founder Joe and I met in this space, and we were encouraged to do mobile app, you know, just like any other startup.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:54

      Yeah.

   4. KTKaiwei Tang3:55

      So, (laughs) but very soon though, we realized, um, for both of us, that creating another app is the last thing we wanna do. You know, we were doing research about how human, how people interact with tech, with, with smartphone, and we just kinda freak ourself out. Like, I'm sure you see this everywhere, not just in New York, you know, in subway, in train station, in airport, e- everyone's just looking, 80% of the time is looking down. It doesn't, doesn't matter who are they with or where they are, you know, they're j- uh, they're just swiping away, um, uh, on the screen. Um, we, we know that we check our phone 200 times, or more than six hours a day, um, and-

   5. CWChris Williamson4:40

      Is that the average, is that the average figure?

   6. KTKaiwei Tang4:43

      Yeah. That's the average figure from, from research that we can find, and we are-

   7. CWChris Williamson4:48

      200 s- 200 times a day, and six hours a day on average.

   8. KTKaiwei Tang4:52

      Six hours. I mean, with teenagers, even worse, with social media, that, that, you know, they'll, they, they could be on their smartphone 10 hours a day. It's just not human, um, fr- our perspective. We can't really stare at a screen 24/7.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:08

      No, that's crazy. I mean, I'd seen, um... I'm not sure how much truth there is in this, but I read a quote from an article that said something like, "In one week, humans get more stimulation, more visual stimulation than they would've gotten in an entire year, typically-"

   10. KTKaiwei Tang5:24

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson5:24

       ... "during their evolution." Um, and, you know, uh, uh, y- you are right. To look at it, to step back a little bit from typical smartphone use and look at it as a, uh, a- an alien, I suppose, looking down on Earth, you have all of the-

   12. KTKaiwei Tang5:41

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson5:41

       ... all of the complexity and the beauty and the, the uniqueness of day-to-day life going on, and-

   14. KTKaiwei Tang5:47

       Yeah. It's a-

   15. CWChris Williamson5:48

       ... we all spend so much time staring down at our phones. So, what, what year was this when you first went into the, um, into the project?

   16. KTKaiwei Tang5:56

       It's in 2014. You know, we, um, we start, we started to... After research, we started to, uh, thinking about how do we create something that-... create a physical object that could encourage and inspire more people to take a break.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:16

       So, can you-

   18. KTKaiwei Tang6:16

       You know, just like you said, like, we... Go ahead.

4. 6:19 – 8:39

   The research: taking away smartphones and measuring the withdrawal-to-presence shift

   1. CWChris Williamson6:19

      No, no, um, just can you take, take us through the research that you did on, into people's phone use? Can you explain-

   2. KTKaiwei Tang6:25

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:25

      ... how that was conducted, and, um, who it was on, and what it consisted of?

   4. KTKaiwei Tang6:30

      Yeah, of course. Uh, just, uh, so we basically, um, invited random, random people, friends we know, and we take away their smartphone for, say, like six hours or entire day, and we give them, you know, a flip phone at a time, and ask them to spend a, a whole day or, or six h- hours without, um, their smartphone. And then what's interesting is that, uh, was that when they came back from the trip or after the day, you know, like, they have common, this common feedback that the first half hour or first hour was extremely difficult, 'cause you have this anxiety that you don't know what to do. Like, there's no- there's nothing on me. I can't, I can't pull, pull, pull out my smartphone and start swiping. I'm getting bored. What do I do? What do I do?

   5. CWChris Williamson7:20

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KTKaiwei Tang7:21

      Like, everyone has that reaction, uh, in the first 20, 30 minutes. However, what's magical is, is that after you get over that FOMO, you know, the fear of missing out feeling-

   7. CWChris Williamson7:32

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. KTKaiwei Tang7:33

      ... once you get over that, what's, what's gonna happen is you, you started to pay attention to, to other people, to, to the building, to the crowd. You know, like, talk to strangers sometimes when you're waiting for a bus or waiting for subway. It is fascinating and, and, uh, they report back. It's like, you know, I have a, I have a, a, a lady came back saying that's the best day of their, her, her week just because she remembered, um, what happen during the day, like literally.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:03

      Absolutely. I think there's definitely a, uh, a parallel that is run between how much you, how much of your day has been spent on your phone and how not mindful you have been throughout the day. Like anyone who is undergoing mindfulness practice and, and trying to be more present, the first-

   10. KTKaiwei Tang8:24

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:25

       ... the first place to look, I think, that will be able to in- improve your ability to be present is to-

   12. KTKaiwei Tang8:30

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:30

       ... is to put your phone down, because by its very nature, having your phone out and in your hand is not being present. You're not where you are. You're somewhere else in a virtual space.

5. 8:39 – 12:19

   Why a dedicated object beats willpower: the case against flight mode and ‘just use a flip phone’

   1. KTKaiwei Tang8:39

      (laughs) Yeah, we got a lot of, you know, feedback when we started Light Phone. You know, like, the most logical, common question would be, "Hey, why do I need Light Phone," right? "I'll, I'll just turn on flight mode. I'll just, you know, leave my smartphone at home. Why do I need Light Phone?" Uh, uh, there, there are apps out there that, that could limit notification or turn off notification, you know? Uh, that, isn't that, isn't that, you know, possibly achieve the same purpose of that, that Light Phone is offering? And my answer's always be that we... I think we, as human, we need object to inspire actions.

   2. CWChris Williamson9:19

      Mm.

   3. KTKaiwei Tang9:20

      And I think that's how, it's also how religions work. You know, you have all kinds of s- uh, uh, books, and statues, and, and necklace. Uh, it just needs something to, to inspire you, to encourage you to take actions, you know?

   4. CWChris Williamson9:35

      Yeah.

   5. KTKaiwei Tang9:35

      You could also say, "Hey, why can I use a, a, a Motorola flip phone, Nokia phone, uh, 20 years ago?" And my argument is, "Okay, so how many people that you know actually do that?"

   6. CWChris Williamson9:46

      Yeah (laughs) .

   7. KTKaiwei Tang9:47

      Uh, not, not many. It's not special. Like, no one really do that, because the experience of using those, um, uh, uh, old, uh, vintage devices are not special. All we're trying to do is creating a object, a brand, and our brand message to make this connecting, to make, you know, a, a, a stay away from your smartphone special-

   8. CWChris Williamson10:09

      Yeah.

   9. KTKaiwei Tang10:09

      ... so more people willing to take a break. You know, we're not, we're not trying to replace smartphones, saying, "Hey, your smartphone's bad. Yeah, don't use your smartphone at all, at all." We're not saying that. We're just saying, "Hey, you know, it's like we have different shoes, different clothes for different occasion." Your smartphone's great for emails, for FaceTime with your family, or gaming, whatever that you wanna do, social media. But what if sometimes all we wanna do is, you know, take a walk down the street, or spending two hours with your family in the park, or just, you know, be creative, try to concentrate, or, uh, just sitting on the beach watching sunset? Why do you need a mini computer with you all the time?

   10. CWChris Williamson10:52

       Yeah, I think that's a, that's a really good analogy to say about the different clothes, because you're right. We, we have our loadout, so to speak, to use a, a gaming analogy, is different based on what the situation is that we're going into. You know, we wear different clothes, and we have a different backpack to go to the gym versus to go to the office versus to go away on holiday. And, you know, when you're talking about a piece of, um, a piece of technology which takes up, up to six hours of your day, so, you know, not far off a third of your waking life is spent on this one object, making that-

   11. KTKaiwei Tang11:35

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:35

       ... more appropriate for the situation, gearing that in the same way as you do your outfit and your bags and your food and everything else, you know, it, you, you are right. It does seem like a, like an odd thing to not be doing. So, let's, let's roll it back. So you've, you've, you've, uh, taken people's phones off them during your, your research. The people who have had an older phone with less functionality have noticed that they have an improved quality in their day. Was that the, from there on, did that kind of kick off, right, we need to try and do something about this? We need to try and mirror the reduction in...... apps, uh, in a de- device or where did it go from there?

6. 12:19 – 17:31

   The attention economy, boredom, and the loss of inner life

   1. KTKaiwei Tang12:19

      Yeah, pretty much. Uh, we just find it fascinating that pretty much everyone comes back saying that's the best hours, best time they had in the whole week, just because, just because we're being bombarded with so much information all the time. And we, and I think that's why we decided, hey, like, that's, that's what we want to do. You know, every- if you look at current state, uh, of technology, right, everything that everyone else, Google, Apple, Samsung, whoever, they're all building product to move us to a more connected life. But there's no balance. No one's offering a healthy balance in a tech world to, to offer a better option. Well, I mean-

   2. CWChris Williamson13:02

      Yeah, like- ... why, why, you know, the, the, the other argument would be, why would they? None of the-

   3. KTKaiwei Tang13:07

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:08

      ... none of the companies inherently believe that there is anything wrong with too much phone use. The attention economy and advertising, which is what is paving the way for most of the apps that are on the phones-

   5. KTKaiwei Tang13:22

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:22

      ... it's advertising time. Uh, time on screen is what these people are concerned about. So, if you can make a, a device which goes longer and more immersively and is more seamlessly integrated with your life, that's more time on screen that's better, right? You know-

   7. KTKaiwei Tang13:38

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson13:38

      ... that from one side of the fence, that's the way that they're gonna presume. Whereas, it would appear that what people actually value in terms of what they consider to be time well spent is time off screen.

   9. KTKaiwei Tang13:54

      Yeah, I mean, I think it- that's exactly what, uh, in my opinion, that's, that's a huge ... it's almost a crisis of human, human being. Like, we are so blindly willing to give up what we have in front of us. Like, give up our thoughts, give up boredom, that, you know, boredom is supposed to be ... feeling bored is, is how you, you be creative, how you, you know, look into yourself and start a conversation with, with yourself. But right now, because of attention business, because of all the business model in the app, not smartphone, app-

   10. CWChris Williamson14:29

       Mm-hmm.

   11. KTKaiwei Tang14:30

       ... all the business model in your app is trying to grab your attention, grab your time, so they can make money out of it. They could either, you know, put in more advertisement or lure you to subscribe service. There's nothing wrong with that, that's how company work. But the problem is, like, when everything's doing that, your device is just, it, it's, it's not, it's, we're putting ourself in a disa- a disadvantage-

   12. CWChris Williamson14:52

       Absolutely.

   13. KTKaiwei Tang14:53

       ... um, as a human.

   14. CWChris Williamson14:54

       Absolutely. I think-

   15. KTKaiwei Tang14:56

       We're vulnerable.

   16. CWChris Williamson14:56

       We are vulnerable. And I think one of the big, one of the big things, uh, I listened to, what kind of got me onto this, this topic specifically, was a podcast that Tristan Harris from Time Well Spent did with Sam Harris halfway through last year. And I know that that was really eye-opening for a lot of people. And for me to see that and to look at the persuasive techniques that are being used by app developers and, um, the, the companies that are behind some of the, the most highly used and highly engaged social media sites in the world, it feels, it does feel like you're being tricked. It do- I know that it's not that there's some evil cabal of people in hooded robes sat behind, you know, in some dark dungeon somewhere. That's not the way it is. But it kind of, it kind of does feel a little bit like that. You know, as a user, you, you're kind of this rat in a maze getting, getting forced around this app loop and, you know, you, before you know it, you've spent 45 minutes in bed on a morning and you're late to make breakfast and you, you're late to go and, and do the things that you actually wanted to do with your day, because you've been stuck in a loop.

   17. KTKaiwei Tang16:14

       Yeah. And, and as a, as a designer, it's like, when, you know, when we design app, if we were to design app, you always want to make sure, like, every step of the way it's enticing. You create this page, the next page, it all makes sense, all interesting, so people spend more time on your app, they follow through, complete your process. You know, as a designer, that's how we design. If we're, if we are designing app, that's how we design app. Uh, (laughs) and that's why bus- and that's how business model in app, uh, uh, benefit from it too. Which is-

   18. CWChris Williamson16:45

       Absolutely.

   19. KTKaiwei Tang16:46

       ... we're just so vulnerable, uh, uh, as human that, uh, I think with Light Phone, uh, we wanted to also, you know, start a conversation of, you know, why can't we have different options, right? Why can't, why can't we, uh, uh, uh, up our h- our smartphone and just, you know, use something else, um, so that we won't be hijacked? We're using something that, that actually designed to respect us. You know, it's not designed to grab your time and attention or s- uh, you know, make you spend more money on it, they just want to sell you something.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:23

       Yeah.

   21. KTKaiwei Tang17:24

       Why can, why can't we design something beautiful-

   22. CWChris Williamson17:27

       Yeah.

   23. KTKaiwei Tang17:27

       ... and that respect humans' time?

   24. CWChris Williamson17:30

       Yeah.

   25. KTKaiwei Tang17:30

       Uh-

7. 17:31 – 25:31

   Three paths to solving the problem—and why ‘presence’ matters even with a phone on the table

   1. CWChris Williamson17:31

      I think, I think what's interesting is that (sighs) there's, there's kind of two, two sides to, to looking at this, or three sides, should I say, to looking at this, um, at this problem, as far as I can see. One of them is what Tristan Harris appears to be focusing a lot of his time on, which is coming at it from an ethical design perspective. So he's trying to have a change in the culture on a designer's side, so that they're thinking about what they're doing with the apps. I think on another side, there is tactics that normal people and normal smartphone users can use, in terms of reducing their time on screen or improving the quality of their time on screen. And then there appears to be a third, a third side of that, which is looking at solutions to the smartphone u- to smartphone use overall.... and I think that, to me, that appears to be where the Light Phone fits in.

   2. KTKaiwei Tang18:30

      Yeah. I mean, I, I think, uh, Tristan's approach is very interesting and, and he, m- he might be able to create, might be able to create a long-term impact. Uh, but in my opinion, you know, it's, it's that, it's the business model that drove, uh, the addictiveness of our app. It's not a designer's idea. If, if there's no, you know, if business model is not trying to force you to spend more time, enticing you to spend more time, they make money, designer won't do that, 'cause they won't, you know. Usually designers following what company's policy and they're usually not the one making the final decisions. So-

   3. CWChris Williamson19:03

      So you're saying-

   4. KTKaiwei Tang19:04

      ... so-

   5. CWChris Williamson19:04

      ... you're saying that for as long as the attention economy is driving revenue through time on screen, the app developers are going to continue to do that. So all they're doing is meeting a brief, right?

   6. KTKaiwei Tang19:17

      Yeah, and you also have an app, uh, you, you just within the ecosystem, the, uh, smartphone app, i- i- it will be ... So there's a psychology study that we, um, that we, uh, uh, uh, learned that, uh, only the presence, just the presence of your smartphone on the table changed our conversation. You and me. If I, if, if I'm sitting right across you and I have my phone out, that changed our conversation 'cause we, you and, we both expect our conversation will, will be interrupted. We will pick up our phone and text and look at you and talk at the same time. We will look at, we will look at a notification. Like, I think just the presence of your smartphone really, uh, change, um, our behavior-

   7. CWChris Williamson20:06

      That's so-

   8. KTKaiwei Tang20:07

      ... to-

   9. CWChris Williamson20:07

      ... interesting.

   10. KTKaiwei Tang20:08

       Yeah, it's crazy how smartphone imer- uh, immersed into our daily life and it's also fascinating how we are not fighting back.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:20

       Yeah.

   12. KTKaiwei Tang20:21

       Um-

   13. CWChris Williamson20:21

       Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think w- what's really interesting is you said there, having a smartphone out on the table, you're not the first person who's cited this actually. Yousef, one of the co-hosts, mentioned this on a previous (laughs) podcast. Really funny that you've both come up with the same story, but, um, it's really interesting. Smartphone is such a ubiquitous part of our lives, but yet, in the same sentence, having it out changes our behavior. So that shows that although it's accepted, it's not natural. If it was natural, it wouldn't make any difference, but it's not. It's, it, it is an impingement, it is a restriction on our time and on our normal discourse.

   14. KTKaiwei Tang21:06

       Yeah, because it's so addictive. Like, you, you can't w- we all have this nervous habit to just check it every couple of minutes, every couple of seconds. It, it, it just ve- extremely powerful over, have so much power over us. Um, yeah, we just don't, we just feel like we need to do something else to, um, to help out (laughs) -

   15. CWChris Williamson21:28

       I agree, man.

   16. KTKaiwei Tang21:29

       ... if that makes-

   17. CWChris Williamson21:29

       I, I agree indeed. But yeah, like you say, it's, th- the, Tristan's approach, um, from Time Well Spent and The Center for Humane Technology, both of those, check them out if you're listening and, um, the links will be in the description below. Um, those are important, important systemic changes, but they're a cultural change, and I do think that that's going to come about through understanding, through disseminating information and, you know, y- you are right that the, the economy at the moment is driving people in that direction. So it's not, it's not a fix which can be reached very quickly. I don't think that it's-

   18. KTKaiwei Tang22:13

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson22:13

       ... the sort of solution which is going to manifest itself or it's, it's, um, a destination, should I say, which is going to be reached very quickly.

   20. KTKaiwei Tang22:24

       Yeah. I, I mean, I, I obviously wish that that could bring like, immediately impact as well. Um, uh, I think we, we as human, we need, we need to fight back. Um, uh, um, and with Light Phone, I think, uh, our philosophy, um, uh, when we started, um, designing, designing it and, and creating a vision, we don't, we don't really see Light Phone as a solution to smartphone addiction. The Light Phone to us, i- it's actually, it's a question that we want to post to our users. Well, what is the question? The question is, when you go out with Light Phone, you have no smartphone, you have no social media, no game, no message, no notification. What are you gonna do? What's important in your life? What are you gonna think about? Who are you gonna talk to? When you get bored, what's imp- what's essential to you? Like, I make, I think all this profound question that we right now, especially nowadays that we have smartphones all the time, you just, you know, take it out and, and, and spending time on it. Like, we forget to do all that. I think that's like so important to us as human to, to really have time, um, creating environment, creating the time for us to, you know, have a conversation with ourselves. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson23:46

       I think, I think that's-

   22. KTKaiwei Tang23:47

       Uh, I know it's imp-

   23. CWChris Williamson23:48

       ... I think that having a conversation with yourself is, is such a, a really important message. We were, we were discussing in Life Hacks 101, one of the, the podcasts that we recorded not so long ago, we discussed that during meditation and mindfulness practice, a lot of the time when you're quieting down the mind, you end up having thoughts and ideas that come to you-

   24. KTKaiwei Tang24:11

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:11

       ... and they never come to you at any of the time of the day. And-

   26. KTKaiwei Tang24:14

       Exactly.

   27. CWChris Williamson24:15

       ... that's absolutely due to the fact that you do not have this distraction, this barrage of, of stimulus that's taking you away from being with your thoughts and taking you into a world that you've seen a million times before. The images are different and maybe the text's different, but the, the experience is the same. Do you know what I mean?

   28. KTKaiwei Tang24:39

       ... yeah, that's, that's what make us human. I, I think we, we just, we can't forget about it. Like that's, that's why we're human. We're not, we're not AI. We're not, you know, (laughs) machine. Like we, we, we ask ourselves stupid questions. We ask ourselves silly questions.

   29. CWChris Williamson24:56

       (laughs)

   30. KTKaiwei Tang24:56

       We get bored. (laughs)
8. 25:31 – 26:32

   Light Phone v1 explained: call-only, paired with your smartphone, built for ‘going light’

   1. CWChris Williamson25:31

      ... we've danced, we've danced around it. The... can you take us through what the Light Phone is, from bottom to top?

   2. KTKaiwei Tang25:37

      Right. Yeah, so, um, technically, a light phone is a credit card-sized, um, mobile phone that only makes and receive phone calls. Um, there's nothing else on it, no messaging, no notification, no internet, no social media. So how it works is that you basically pair a Light Phone with your smartphone, and when you want to use Light Phone, you could turn on Light Phone from your smartphone, leave your smartphone behind, and go out without all the distraction and noise. So you, you are able to enjoy the moment and be more present. Uh, but when someone calls you on your smartphone, um, the call will get forwarded to, uh, your Light Phone, so you won't miss important calls.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KTKaiwei Tang26:28

      But I mean, uh, there's no distraction, no noise.

9. 26:32 – 30:06

   Design constraints that force intention: nine speed dials, one identity, global availability

   1. CWChris Williamson26:32

      Right. I understand. So I've done a little bit of, a little bit of reading and, and had a look around. Am I right in thinking that you're allowed to call nine people? Is that right?

   2. KTKaiwei Tang26:43

      Yeah. Yeah, we, uh, allow a user to, uh, save up to nine speed dials-

   3. CWChris Williamson26:50

      Y-

   4. KTKaiwei Tang26:50

      ... uh, on Light Phone.

   5. CWChris Williamson26:52

      So you got the one to nine on the keypad, and you can call the one through nine as outgoing calls.

   6. KTKaiwei Tang27:00

      Yes. Uh, that's, that's the initial intention. Uh, the reason that we make that design choice is that, uh, doing research, uh, when we ask people to go out with, you know, uh, leave their smartphone behind and go out with a flip phone or old, uh, uh, mobile phone, we also will ask, um, our participant to write down the numbers they need for the day. And no one has more than six.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:26

      (laughs)

   8. KTKaiwei Tang27:26

      Like, no one has... well count more, more, number they want to call more than six. No one has that. Like why do we have thousand contact in our phone?

   9. CWChris Williamson27:33

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   10. KTKaiwei Tang27:35

       And that's why we make that decision to make it

   11. CWChris Williamson27:37

       So you're so right. You are so right. I think the top, probably of the top 20 people that you call, the... there would be... or of your entire phone book, you're right, that 95% of the people that you're going to call most regularly are going to be a, a, a very small number of, of phone numbers. And some of those are probably going to be pizza deliveries and takeaways (laughs) and stuff like that. So, uh-

   12. KTKaiwei Tang28:00

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson28:01

       ... so, o-

   14. KTKaiwei Tang28:02

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson28:02

       ... okay, so I'm right in saying that you k- you keep your own number as well, right? So it's not a separate phone, it's kind of like an extension of your existing phone?

   16. KTKaiwei Tang28:11

       Yeah. We, um, we offer that call, uh, call masking, uh, feature I- US only. Um, so in US, when you get Light Phone, you could, you know, pair Light Phone with your smartphone and, um, and the Light Phone will basically use your smartphone number. So when you make phone calls on Light Phone, uh, it will still shows up as your, you know, as you, not a different number.

   17. CWChris Williamson28:35

       Yeah.

   18. KTKaiwei Tang28:36

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson28:36

       Okay. So what is the rollout at the moment of Light Phone? Where is it available and where is it functioning?

   20. KTKaiwei Tang28:44

       Yeah, we, uh, we ship internationally. Um, and at the moment, I think we shipped roughly 10,000 plus, um, Light Phones to 50 different countries.

   21. CWChris Williamson28:58

       Wow.

   22. KTKaiwei Tang28:59

       And it just amazingly... like, we, we learned this problem is so universal. Um, it, it was not just US or UK, it's like, everywhere, especially in Asia countries too.

   23. CWChris Williamson29:12

       Okay.

   24. KTKaiwei Tang29:13

       Um, we were in Hong Kong airport, like, when we, you know, meeting have... went, uh, went to Hong Kong to meet suppliers. We saw the stickers everywhere, uh, on... in the airport that ask people to look up, because it's become a safety issues everywhere in airports. People just like staring at their phone, bump into each other, bump into tripping back-

   25. CWChris Williamson29:33

       Other what the... it's such a big issue people looking at their phones that it's an actual safety hazard. It's been classed as a safety hazard that people aren't looking up as opposed to looking down.

   26. KTKaiwei Tang29:44

       Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

   27. CWChris Williamson29:46

       (laughs)

   28. KTKaiwei Tang29:46

       Uh, like we were all-

   29. CWChris Williamson29:47

       That's crazy.

   30. KTKaiwei Tang29:48

       Let's see. Okay, we all have so much in light... in our life, right? Your friends, family, uh, you know, like trees, cloud, buildings, the architectures, beautiful, uh, uh, uh, uh, stores like... but we just willingly give it, give those all up. Um, so yeah.

10. 30:06 – 35:37

    Information overload, bathroom scrolling, and social comparison anxiety

    1. CWChris Williamson30:06

       You're, you're really right. I think what... something that one of my, um, one of my work colleagues said to me about a year ago on a similas- similar subject, and he asked, "What was the last three things that you liked on any social media?"

    2. KTKaiwei Tang30:21

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson30:21

       And if the listeners can try and do that, if... unless they've got their phone in front of them now, if you can try and think about the last three things that you clicked like on, on Instagram or Facebook, I, I have absolutely no idea. Uh, the-

    4. KTKaiwei Tang30:35

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson30:35

       ... you know, those, those things were so worthy of my time that I sacrificed some of my life to go on to this device and look at them, and then-... give a judgment of positivity in response to it, and yet upon being asked to recall it 20 minutes later, I can't even tell you what it was.

    6. KTKaiwei Tang30:59

       (laughs) Yeah. We just-

    7. CWChris Williamson31:01

       I, I (laughs)

    8. KTKaiwei Tang31:02

       ... quick think so quickly. It's just, we, we don't, you know, we don't really spend time digesting. Uh, you just flip it through. We have so much information all the time. Um, you know-

    9. CWChris Williamson31:13

       You, you're right, yeah. It's, it's al- it's almost such an information overload as people go through, through their phone that the depth of interaction has to be, by very nature, shallow in order to fit the breadth of consumption in. Do you think that's fair to say?

    10. KTKaiwei Tang31:32

        (laughs) Totally. And, and I, I also think it's because, um, it's easy. We always, we, we, you know, we're human. We always want ... We're lazy. We want easy way out.

    11. CWChris Williamson31:43

        Mm-hmm.

    12. KTKaiwei Tang31:44

        That's why we have smartphones, for when you feel challenged, when you feel awkward, when you feel bored. You have, you have a way out. Same thing with social media, same thing with anything. Like when you have a difficult thought, you just wanna, you know, instead of like really dive into it, really like think about it, you're just k- blindly consuming information without even, uh, thinking about it. Um, (laughs) yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson32:08

        The boredom, the boredom thing's a really interesting one as well. I'd seen a study online that said something like, more than 60% of people admit to using their phone on the toilet. And I, I honestly saw that and thought, "Is it only 60%?" Like, I don't know anyone (laughs) , I don't know anybody that goes to the bathroom and doesn't take their, their mobile phone with them. Like, and that-

    14. KTKaiwei Tang32:30

        100%.

    15. CWChris Williamson32:30

        That bathroom thing is such a big deal. Like, you know, that's the one time where (laughs) you probably can afford to be alone with your thoughts.

    16. KTKaiwei Tang32:39

        (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson32:39

        And we're, you know, we're having a swipe through Instagram and we're doing all, all bits and pieces like that. You think, "Well, yeah." The-

    18. KTKaiwei Tang32:48

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson32:48

        ... the boredom is part and parcel, and the silence is part and parcel as well. And I, I think that the rates of anxiety, mental health, and suicide is the number one killer of men in the UK under the age of 40. You know, rates of anxiety ... It's Mental Health Week this week actually in the UK. And, uh, in a society where we're trying to reduce anxiety, reduce depression, and, uh, I'm going to guess that there will be some-

    20. KTKaiwei Tang33:15

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson33:15

        ... stu- some studies that I'm not aware of, is smartphone use ... Has smartphone use been scientifically linked with anxiety and depression yet, or are you aware if it has?

    22. KTKaiwei Tang33:26

        I, I'm not, but, uh, I might. We always believe that being well-connected won't make us any happier. Uh, looking at people's feed won't make you happy. It just gonna make you more anxious. You're, you're gonna compare, and, and, and for, for teenagers, for young people that didn't real- didn't really realize that, you know, social media or internet is just one side of, just one small angle of, uh-

    23. CWChris Williamson33:58

        Mm-hmm.

    24. KTKaiwei Tang33:58

        ... this person's life.

    25. CWChris Williamson33:59

        (laughs)

    26. KTKaiwei Tang33:59

        Like you see, you know, you see like, "Oh, I'm always pondering on my Face- pondering on Facebook. I'm always out traveling on my Facebook or Twitter or social media," but that's not ch- real life.

    27. CWChris Williamson34:11

        At all.

    28. KTKaiwei Tang34:11

        That's just reflection of one angle of this person's life.

    29. CWChris Williamson34:16

        I'm s-

    30. KTKaiwei Tang34:16

        We, as humans, we always wanna show the positive side. We always wanna show that we're laughing, we're having fun.
11. 35:37 – 39:41

    Why ‘not having a phone’ isn’t the goal: safety, convenience, and the ‘quarter’ analogy

    1. CWChris Williamson35:37

       And a coup- a couple of the issues that those guys have come up against ... So one of them, one of the ... The problem with not having a phone on you at all is that I think there's definitely a level of safety of knowing that you've got your phone with you.

    2. KTKaiwei Tang35:51

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson35:51

       Like, you know, you ... There may be an emergency, either you needing to contact someone or someone needing to contact you.

    4. KTKaiwei Tang35:58

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson35:58

       So I think, I think going completely phone-free holds so much anxiety (laughs) for some people that whatever level of freedom they would gain by not having their smartphone would be nullified and then probably actually even made worse by shitting their pants that something bad had gone wrong and that they weren't able to be (laughs) contacted or that they couldn't contact someone. So, I, I think going completely phone-free ... Because phone-free isn't the issue, is it? The phone isn't the issue.

    6. KTKaiwei Tang36:34

       No.

    7. CWChris Williamson36:34

       It's the overuse and it's the immersion in apps.... that's the-

    8. KTKaiwei Tang36:38

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson36:38

       ... that's the issue.

    10. KTKaiwei Tang36:39

        Phone is just a, phone is just a tool. It's supposed to be a tool. It's not a entertaining, you know, a social media device. It's a tool that you use to talk to people, people, to communicate with people, you know, and that's what we want to do. Like it, yeah, you, you, you, you are exactly right, that going completely phone free, it's, it's dangerous, 'cause what if you don't wanna, you know, what if you run into something that you need to call people? What if you need, you know, y- y- some emergency happen? And, um, Light Phone, to us, uh, uh, we, uph, our thought is creating a peace of mind when you go out without a smartphone. So, you know, almost knowing that, "Hey, uh, uh, I could call my family if I need to. Uh, my, you know, my friends can reach out to me if they want to, but other than that, nothing else." I, uh, I was just recently had a conversation with, um, uh, a woman in our working space, and she was telling me that, uh, Light Phone is like a quarter. I'm not sure, in UK, it's called quarter. A quarter is a 25 cents coin.

    11. CWChris Williamson37:41

        Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    12. KTKaiwei Tang37:42

        So it's like a, it's like a quarter in the old days. I was like, "Why? It's like a quarter." And she was like, "Because, you know, in the old days, without smartphone, you always wanna have a quarter on you so you can use the payphone."

    13. CWChris Williamson37:54

        (laughs)

    14. KTKaiwei Tang37:54

        (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson37:54

        Just in case you need to make it. Yeah, that's such a good analogy. Yeah.

    16. KTKaiwei Tang37:58

        It's a, it's a peace of mind, huh?

    17. CWChris Williamson38:00

        That really is. And then I think, so the second, let's say the second solution that a couple of people have come up with was to get, like, a, you know, like you did with the, uh, during your study, you gave people, like, an old flip phone. But I think another one of the issues is when you're asking people to make a lifestyle change like this, it needs to be as convenient as possible. It has to stack the deck in the favor of doing the thing that you want them to do. And obviously, if you... Uh, one of my friends tried to do this in the UK, and he got a 10 pound pay-as-you-go s-, uh, pay-as-you-go phone, then realized that because he's got a micro SIM from an iPhone, he then has to go and buy an adapter to make the micro SIM into a normal size SIM so that you can fit that into the phone, and that means, like, taking his iPhone apart every time he wants to do it. Taking the back of this old phone, taking the battery out, you know, fitting it in, fitting it into the new, um, like, micro SIM adapter and putting it in. And you just think, "Well, I'm not surprised that he, he only stuck up with it for, like, one day a week for three weeks." 'Cause I couldn't be bothered to do that. Like, it's not con-

    18. KTKaiwei Tang39:08

        I know.

    19. CWChris Williamson39:09

        ... it's not convenient. And the thing is that the disparity between moving from s-, a, a situation of such hyper convenience with Google Maps and Wikipedia and Google on, you know, on a device to think, "Right, not only have I got to give this up, but I've got to get through all of these really shitty hurdles, fiddly hurdles, to give (laughs) myself less functionality." It, you know, it, it doesn't surprise me that, that that wasn't a very successful approach.

12. 39:41 – 53:03

    Aesthetic as behavior change: form factor, pride, and a ‘Life Phone’ philosophy

    1. KTKaiwei Tang39:41

       Yeah. Uh, like I said, it's just not special enough for you to actually wanna do it. I mean, to successfully en- encourage people to, to, to stay away from smartphone, I mean, I, uh, I, I think that's why we created Light Phone. It's well designed, it's beautiful, so you might, you know, for people that have n- never thought about going, going out without smartphone might, they might get intrigued and say, "Hey, this thing looks cool. I'll, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go out." But it come-

    2. CWChris Williamson40:09

       Yeah, for sure. It looks, aesthetically, the smart- the Light Phone looks really, really cool. It's just a little bit bigger than a credit card, right?

    3. KTKaiwei Tang40:18

       Yeah. It's, uh, credit card size, and it's, uh, uh, a bit thicker than the, the actual credit card.

    4. CWChris Williamson40:24

       Mm-hmm.

    5. KTKaiwei Tang40:24

       But it's easy for you to put in a wallet, uh, just pockets. You don't actually feel it's on you.

    6. CWChris Williamson40:32

       Yeah.

    7. KTKaiwei Tang40:32

       So, uh, that's, that's the purpose, uh, when we designed Light Phone, tried to decide what's the form factor, we, um, you know, we try to think about w- what is that thing, what is the thing that we always have on us but we don't really notice that we have them? It's a credit card. It's your ID. If you're-

    8. CWChris Williamson40:51

       Yeah.

    9. KTKaiwei Tang40:52

       ... so that's why we make the design decision to, um,

    10. CWChris Williamson40:56

        You've matched-

    11. KTKaiwei Tang40:57

        ... go with that.

    12. CWChris Williamson40:57

        ... you've matched the, you've matched the phone with something that already exists, which is the, which is the credit card. And I think it's, it was interesting what you said at the very start about it needing to be something that was beautiful that is kind of a little bit like planting a flag in the ground, so to speak. It's making a mark, and it's you, you're attaching, you're attaching your desire to go phone free and to do less tech usage to something which you can almost feel proud of a little bit. You, you have-

    13. KTKaiwei Tang41:26

        (laughs) Yeah, I hope.

    14. CWChris Williamson41:27

        ... y- you have something and you feel proud of it, and you think, "Oh, this is, this is m- a, a, um, physical representation, a manifestation of my desire to better myself and to be more present."

    15. KTKaiwei Tang41:41

        Yeah, I feel, I mean, uh, it's, it's reflected on our users, um, as well. Like, I feel really proud or honored that a lot of our customer that, uh, who bought a Light Phone, like they share, like, it's almost they, they share the, the, the moment when they get Light Phone, and, and they just feel proud. Obviously, sharing on social media is kind of ironic but...

    16. CWChris Williamson42:04

        (laughs) Yeah.

    17. KTKaiwei Tang42:05

        (laughs) But you can see, you can see the, the, the, the proud that, you know, they wanna share that, "Hey, I decide to do something. I, I make this choice. I'm gonna live this life from time to time. I'm gonna use my Light Phone from time to time. Call me if you need me." Like, we, we see that happening, uh, uh, on, on a lot of social media, people sharing Light Phone, um, with their friends. It's just fascinating to me. Like, it's almost become a lifestyle symbol, um, I wanna say, um, and we just feel really great. Um, and through that, I think what we wanna do is just to encourage more people to, to, to, to try to do that.... you know, to try to stay away from smartphone, which we never do. Like, no one does that. Um, so we want to, you know, just hopefully inspire more people globally to, uh, to try different solution, different shoes, different clothes. Why not?

    18. CWChris Williamson42:59

        Y- yeah. I think the, I think the different shoes and different, um, (sucks teeth) different outfits analogy is the best one that I've heard so far. I think that what was interesting is, you know, th- there's an argument to be made that fixing the problem of too much technology with more technology seems (laughs) -

    19. KTKaiwei Tang43:17

        Of course.

    20. CWChris Williamson43:17

        ... a little bit, a little bit circular. But-

    21. KTKaiwei Tang43:21

        Of course.

    22. CWChris Williamson43:21

        ... that's like saying that there is a problem with riding a bike, so why buy a car? Or why have a pair of walking shoes? It's the same-

    23. KTKaiwei Tang43:32

        Different thing.

    24. CWChris Williamson43:33

        Yeah. It's within the same realm, but it's a different, a different, route to meeting a similar goal. And-

    25. KTKaiwei Tang43:42

        Right. I mean, we, we, like sh- different shoes, different clothes is, uh, how we always say it. We always, you know, like if, if you compare, um, um, Light Phone to your smartphone, smartphone is like a, you know, it's like toolbox. Again, it's like, it's a all kinds of tool. Like you could... There's thousands of tool you don't need.

    26. CWChris Williamson44:00

        Yep.

    27. KTKaiwei Tang44:01

        And L- Light Phone is a screwdriver.

    28. CWChris Williamson44:03

        (laughs) Yeah.

    29. KTKaiwei Tang44:04

        You know? So you could choose what do you need. We can choose what technology we need in a specific condition, uh, situation. We don't have to take it all in. We, we need to make a conscious choice. Uh, but right now, there's no choice. It's all smartphone. Everyone's making smartphone. Everyone's having smartphone 24/7. It's the last thing you see when you go to bed. That if this is not addiction, what ph- what is it? (laughs)

    30. CWChris Williamson44:33

        Oh, man.
13. 53:03 – 56:29

    Launching Light Phone 2: from ‘screwdriver’ to ‘Swiss Army knife’ essentials

    1. KTKaiwei Tang53:03

       ... uh, does offer that. Um, so Chris, I'll feel bad if I didn't mention it. Uh, we are actually launching Light Phone 2 today. (laughs)

    2. CWChris Williamson53:11

       No way.

    3. KTKaiwei Tang53:14

       Yeah, today on Indiegogo, uh, the, the, the thought is, you know, it's being 10,000 phones in three and a half years. Like I said, we keep asking ourself, "How do I make it ... How do we encourage people to go light longer, to go light for good?" You know, not a paired secondary device, but how do we do something that, that encourage a lot more people to go light for good?

    4. CWChris Williamson53:42

       That's fascinating.

    5. KTKaiwei Tang53:42

       You know, like-

    6. CWChris Williamson53:42

       So come on. Tell us, tell us what Light Phone 2 ... Tell us about Light Phone 2. I, I had absolutely no idea (laughs) that this was happening.

    7. KTKaiwei Tang53:48

       Right. (laughs) Yeah, so if I use the same analogy that smartphone is a toolbox, Light Phone 1 is a screwdriver. Light Phone 2 is a Swiss army knife tool.

    8. CWChris Williamson54:01

       Okay.

    9. KTKaiwei Tang54:01

       So the Light Phone 2, our goal is to position it as your primary phone. It's not a, uh, second phone that you pair with smartphone. We wanna, we wanna have this device to potentially, um, replace your smartphone. Uh, it's a 4G Qualcomm-sized phone, the same, the same phone factor. Uh, we add E Ink as the display. Uh, and, uh, we add messaging-

    10. CWChris Williamson54:28

        Like a, like a Kindle, right?

    11. KTKaiwei Tang54:29

        ... clock. Yes, like a Kindle. Black and white, beautiful UI, simple UI. Um, uh, we add messaging to the second generation. Um, we are also, uh, potentially adding the ability to call Uber and alarm clock, uh, direction. But that's it. We're not gonna do, like we're not gonna become smartphone. But this, this to us, it's a Swiss, Swiss army knife phone that-... I think. Um, a lot of people globies- globally are ready to make the switch. Um-

    12. CWChris Williamson55:02

        So, are you ... When you say messaging, are you talking SMS?

    13. KTKaiwei Tang55:06

        Yes, SMS.

    14. CWChris Williamson55:07

        Okay. So, do you see Smartphone II as being a replacement for Smartphone 1 or do you see it as being an alternative? Like you'd have, uh, a, a d- different scales of an- a, a, a, of a, like, a car and a scooter, they perform the same task, but people don't necessarily ... some people will want one and some people will want another.

    15. KTKaiwei Tang55:30

        Yes, exactly. And we're not, we're not, we're not replacing Light Phone 1.

    16. CWChris Williamson55:33

        Mm-hmm.

    17. KTKaiwei Tang55:33

        We're just, you know, just because we got a lot of customer emailing us saying, "Hey, I love Light Phone 1, but can you just add text message? I wanna use Light Phone all the time, but without text message, or direction, or ability to call a taxi, I can't, you know, go light all the time. I can't use it as a daily tool." And, and, and that's exactly how we positioned Light Phone 1, you know. Light Phone 1 is a take-a-break phone, it's a vacation phone, it's a phone you use when you're sitting on the beach watching sunset.

    18. CWChris Williamson56:00

        Yeah.

    19. KTKaiwei Tang56:00

        Um, with Light Phone 2, we wanna create a, a, a different option that, hey, for those people that ready to, to give up smartphone, give up, give up being a slave of technology-

    20. CWChris Williamson56:13

        Mm-hmm.

    21. KTKaiwei Tang56:13

        ... uh, this is a, this is, uh, a option. It's not, it's not old school Nokia, old school, uh, uh, Motorola. It's E-ink display, critical size, uh, with all the essential tool that you need in your daily life.

    22. CWChris Williamson56:28

        Yeah.

    23. KTKaiwei Tang56:29

        It's-

14. 56:29 – 58:02

    Criticism, guardrails, and the business reality: adding features without becoming a smartphone

    1. CWChris Williamson56:29

       Do you think, do you think that you guys are at risk of, um, receiving criticism from people who-

    2. KTKaiwei Tang56:37

       Yes.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:37

       ... who think that it's, uh, a, just a, um, a nefarious route to try and sell another piece of technology to people?

    4. KTKaiwei Tang56:48

       Maybe, but we ... I, I, I, and actually we have, you know, we, when we started Light Phone 2, we actually did a survey asking our customer, "Hey, do you, do you think you will, we will be, you know, hypocrites of us to try and to do, uh, a Swiss army knife tool?"

    5. CWChris Williamson57:03

       Mm.

    6. KTKaiwei Tang57:03

       And 80% of the customers saying no 'cause, um, they believe that adding, adding more features and allow them to, um, stay away from the smartphone longer without social media, without, um, uh, internet, um, without all the distractions, it's, it's actually pretty appealing to them. Um-

    7. CWChris Williamson57:23

       So, so the extra, the, the extra features net a positive?

    8. KTKaiwei Tang57:29

       Yeah. It's, it's, it's essential tool. Like I said, we're not trying to become a smartphone. All I wanna do is to in- invite more people to stay away from this, um, uh, from this, you know, mini computer we have with us 24/7. We don't need that. We, we, we have our iPad, we have our desktop. With Light Phone 2, you could basically do anything else on your laptop or iPad, pad, and you, you have your Light Phone 2 for calls, messaging, uh, calling taxi, alarm clock. That's it.

15. 58:02 – 1:00:16

    Where to buy, sold-out status, and closing reflections on intent

    1. CWChris Williamson58:02

       Mm. Yeah. I understand completely. Well, I think, um, it's been an absolutely fascinating chat, Kai. Would, would you be able to explain where everyone can find you? So, the original Light Phone, where the, where the campaign for the new one's going to be and how they can contact you online?

    2. KTKaiwei Tang58:17

       Yeah. If you, uh, uh, you could check out lightphone2.com, um, that's where our campaign is, and you can find our website through the campaign as well. Um, and I'm happy to, you know, answer any questions, um, from your listeners. Uh, my email is kaiwi@thelightphone.com.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:35

       That's-

    4. KTKaiwei Tang58:35

       K-A-I W-I, thelightphone.com.

    5. CWChris Williamson58:38

       Fantastic. Kai, I, I really, really appreciate your time, man. Um, am I, am I right in thinking ... are you guys in stock for the Light Phone 1 at the moment or are, are, are you waiting on a new batch to be delivered for shipping?

    6. KTKaiwei Tang58:53

       Yeah. We actually sold out on Light Phone 1. Uh, we have no inventory left at the moment. So, uh, we've been taking reservations for Light Phone 1, um, uh, uh, at the moment, and, uh, we're also taking, uh, reservations for Light Phone 2 at lightphone2.com.

    7. CWChris Williamson59:10

       Amazing. Thank you very much for your time, Kai.

    8. KTKaiwei Tang59:13

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson59:13

       Uh, I really appreciate that. Links to everything will be below in the description. Good luck with your Indiegogo campaign. Uh, I really do think that what you're doing is born of a place of goodwill. I know that th- there is a, a criticism to be made, fixing too much tech with more tech is not a solution. But, I don't think that, I don't think that you guys are, are trying to achieve a, a money-making ... obviously it needs to be a commercially viable business, but I don't think that you guys are, are aiming to do this from a place of bad faith. I think that it is genui-

    10. KTKaiwei Tang59:45

        Uh-

    11. CWChris Williamson59:46

        ... genuinely s- something that's born of the desire to make people's lives more livable. And I think it's a very-

    12. KTKaiwei Tang59:52

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson59:52

        ... a very noble pursuit, and, uh, I think that ... I hope that you do very, very well with it in the future.

    14. KTKaiwei Tang59:58

        I appreciate it, Chris. Thank you.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

        Thank you very much, man. Thanks for chatting.

    16. NANarrator1:00:05

        (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:00:16