Reducing Smartphone Addiction | The Light Phone

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Hi, friends. On…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hi, friends. On last week's episode, we discussed how people can become addicted to social media, how cognitive biases that we don't know even exist in our brains are being manipulated by almost every (laughs) social media that exists, and how your phone is essentially a hacker in your pocket. The feedback this week's been absolutely fantastic. I've got so many tweets and messages from people saying that they are trying to reduce their phone time, and this has helped open their eyes to why it's not necessarily their fault. This week, I'm sitting down with Cai Wei, who is the CEO of thelightphone.com, and they think that they have developed a product which can enable us to spend more time off screen. I do think that there's an important question to be asked here, and it is, can we fix the problem of too much technology with more technology? That's a question you'll have to answer yourself. Also, I do want to say that I was not sponsored or paid to, uh, interview Cai, and I found him off my own back because of how interested I was in the product, and I wanted to hear his philosophy on it. I also want to say (laughs) that I'm considering buying one after my conversation with him, but that's completely independent. So, here we go. Cai Wei. (instrumental music) So, Cai, welcome to Modern Wisdom. Very good to meet you.

   2. KTKaiwei Tang1:55

      Thanks for having me. Please, sure.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:56

      Thank you very much for coming on, man. Um, you are CEO of The Light Phone.

   4. KTKaiwei Tang2:02

      Uh, that's correct, yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:03

      So, I got introduced to the product from a friend who just linked me to it online, and I had a, I had a browse around, and it seemed it's a real, um, a real unique device as far as I can see. For those people who-

   6. KTKaiwei Tang2:18

      Thank you.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:19

      ... (laughs) those people who, uh, think that technology's sort of moving in one direction, which is more, more functionality, more, uh, integration with our lives, and you guys have come up with a product which kinda goes in the complete opposite direction. Do you think that would be fair to say?

   8. KTKaiwei Tang2:38

      Yeah, I see a lot of, uh, press, um, uh, mention us as anti-smartphone, but, you know, we always wanted to clarify that we're not anti-technology or anti-smartphone. We're just trying to, you know, be more human about how we approach technology, um-

   9. CWChris Williamson2:55

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KTKaiwei Tang2:55

       ... specifically the smartphone that we all have 24/7.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:59

       Yeah. I understand that. So, can you give us some background, background to yourself and how this concept came about?

   12. KTKaiwei Tang3:09

       Yeah, of course. So, um, my background is in design and design research. Um, four years ago, or wait, five years ago, um, I quit my job, um, and joined this incubator that Google started, uh, in New York specifically for designers, just because, you know, they f- th- they think that... The hypothesis that they think designers, uh, when you put designers on the founding table, that w- that product will create it with empathy, uh, can really create social impact. So, we were, uh, my co-founder Joe and I met in this space, and we were encouraged to do mobile app, you know, just like any other startup.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:54

       Yeah.

   14. KTKaiwei Tang3:55

       So, (laughs) but very soon though, we realized, um, for both of us, that creating another app is the last thing we wanna do. You know, we were doing research about how human, how people interact with tech, with, with smartphone, and we just kinda freak ourself out. Like, I'm sure you see this everywhere, not just in New York, you know, in subway, in train station, in airport, e- everyone's just looking, 80% of the time is looking down. It doesn't, doesn't matter who are they with or where they are, you know, they're j- uh, they're just swiping away, um, uh, on the screen. Um, we, we know that we check our phone 200 times, or more than six hours a day, um, and-

   15. CWChris Williamson4:40

       Is that the average, is that the average figure?

   16. KTKaiwei Tang4:43

       Yeah. That's the average figure from, from research that we can find, and we are-

   17. CWChris Williamson4:48

       200 s- 200 times a day, and six hours a day on average.

   18. KTKaiwei Tang4:52

       Six hours. I mean, with teenagers, even worse, with social media, that, that, you know, they'll, they, they could be on their smartphone 10 hours a day. It's just not human, um, fr- our perspective. We can't really stare at a screen 24/7.

   19. CWChris Williamson5:08

       No, that's crazy. I mean, I'd seen, um... I'm not sure how much truth there is in this, but I read a quote from an article that said something like, "In one week, humans get more stimulation, more visual stimulation than they would've gotten in an entire year, typically-"

   20. KTKaiwei Tang5:24

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson5:24

       ... "during their evolution." Um, and, you know, uh, uh, y- you are right. To look at it, to step back a little bit from typical smartphone use and look at it as a, uh, a- an alien, I suppose, looking down on Earth, you have all of the-

   22. KTKaiwei Tang5:41

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson5:41

       ... all of the complexity and the beauty and the, the uniqueness of day-to-day life going on, and-

   24. KTKaiwei Tang5:47

       Yeah. It's a-

   25. CWChris Williamson5:48

       ... we all spend so much time staring down at our phones. So, what, what year was this when you first went into the, um, into the project?

   26. KTKaiwei Tang5:56

       It's in 2014. You know, we, um, we start, we started to... After research, we started to, uh, thinking about how do we create something that-... create a physical object that could encourage and inspire more people to take a break.

   27. CWChris Williamson6:16

       So, can you-

   28. KTKaiwei Tang6:16

       You know, just like you said, like, we... Go ahead.

   29. CWChris Williamson6:19

       No, no, um, just can you take, take us through the research that you did on, into people's phone use? Can you explain-

   30. KTKaiwei Tang6:25

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. And, and as…

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      I listened to, what kind of got me onto this, this topic specifically, was a podcast that Tristan Harris from Time Well Spent did with Sam Harris halfway through last year. And I know that that was really eye-opening for a lot of people. And for me to see that and to look at the persuasive techniques that are being used by app developers and, um, the, the companies that are behind some of the, the most highly used and highly engaged social media sites in the world, it feels, it does feel like you're being tricked. It do- I know that it's not that there's some evil cabal of people in hooded robes sat behind, you know, in some dark dungeon somewhere. That's not the way it is. But it kind of, it kind of does feel a little bit like that. You know, as a user, you, you're kind of this rat in a maze getting, getting forced around this app loop and, you know, you, before you know it, you've spent 45 minutes in bed on a morning and you're late to make breakfast and you, you're late to go and, and do the things that you actually wanted to do with your day, because you've been stuck in a loop.

   2. KTKaiwei Tang16:14

      Yeah. And, and as a, as a designer, it's like, when, you know, when we design app, if we were to design app, you always want to make sure, like, every step of the way it's enticing. You create this page, the next page, it all makes sense, all interesting, so people spend more time on your app, they follow through, complete your process. You know, as a designer, that's how we design. If we're, if we are designing app, that's how we design app. Uh, (laughs) and that's why bus- and that's how business model in app, uh, uh, benefit from it too. Which is-

   3. CWChris Williamson16:45

      Absolutely.

   4. KTKaiwei Tang16:46

      ... we're just so vulnerable, uh, uh, as human that, uh, I think with Light Phone, uh, we wanted to also, you know, start a conversation of, you know, why can't we have different options, right? Why can't, why can't we, uh, uh, uh, up our h- our smartphone and just, you know, use something else, um, so that we won't be hijacked? We're using something that, that actually designed to respect us. You know, it's not designed to grab your time and attention or s- uh, you know, make you spend more money on it, they just want to sell you something.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:23

      Yeah.

   6. KTKaiwei Tang17:24

      Why can, why can't we design something beautiful-

   7. CWChris Williamson17:27

      Yeah.

   8. KTKaiwei Tang17:27

      ... and that respect humans' time?

   9. CWChris Williamson17:30

      Yeah.

   10. KTKaiwei Tang17:30

       Uh-

   11. CWChris Williamson17:31

       I think, I think what's interesting is that (sighs) there's, there's kind of two, two sides to, to looking at this, or three sides, should I say, to looking at this, um, at this problem, as far as I can see. One of them is what Tristan Harris appears to be focusing a lot of his time on, which is coming at it from an ethical design perspective. So he's trying to have a change in the culture on a designer's side, so that they're thinking about what they're doing with the apps. I think on another side, there is tactics that normal people and normal smartphone users can use, in terms of reducing their time on screen or improving the quality of their time on screen. And then there appears to be a third, a third side of that, which is looking at solutions to the smartphone u- to smartphone use overall.... and I think that, to me, that appears to be where the Light Phone fits in.

   12. KTKaiwei Tang18:30

       Yeah. I mean, I, I think, uh, Tristan's approach is very interesting and, and he, m- he might be able to create, might be able to create a long-term impact. Uh, but in my opinion, you know, it's, it's that, it's the business model that drove, uh, the addictiveness of our app. It's not a designer's idea. If, if there's no, you know, if business model is not trying to force you to spend more time, enticing you to spend more time, they make money, designer won't do that, 'cause they won't, you know. Usually designers following what company's policy and they're usually not the one making the final decisions. So-

   13. CWChris Williamson19:03

       So you're saying-

   14. KTKaiwei Tang19:04

       ... so-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:04

       ... you're saying that for as long as the attention economy is driving revenue through time on screen, the app developers are going to continue to do that. So all they're doing is meeting a brief, right?

   16. KTKaiwei Tang19:17

       Yeah, and you also have an app, uh, you, you just within the ecosystem, the, uh, smartphone app, i- i- it will be ... So there's a psychology study that we, um, that we, uh, uh, uh, learned that, uh, only the presence, just the presence of your smartphone on the table changed our conversation. You and me. If I, if, if I'm sitting right across you and I have my phone out, that changed our conversation 'cause we, you and, we both expect our conversation will, will be interrupted. We will pick up our phone and text and look at you and talk at the same time. We will look at, we will look at a notification. Like, I think just the presence of your smartphone really, uh, change, um, our behavior-

   17. CWChris Williamson20:06

       That's so-

   18. KTKaiwei Tang20:07

       ... to-

   19. CWChris Williamson20:07

       ... interesting.

   20. KTKaiwei Tang20:08

       Yeah, it's crazy how smartphone imer- uh, immersed into our daily life and it's also fascinating how we are not fighting back.

   21. CWChris Williamson20:20

       Yeah.

   22. KTKaiwei Tang20:21

       Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson20:21

       Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think w- what's really interesting is you said there, having a smartphone out on the table, you're not the first person who's cited this actually. Yousef, one of the co-hosts, mentioned this on a previous (laughs) podcast. Really funny that you've both come up with the same story, but, um, it's really interesting. Smartphone is such a ubiquitous part of our lives, but yet, in the same sentence, having it out changes our behavior. So that shows that although it's accepted, it's not natural. If it was natural, it wouldn't make any difference, but it's not. It's, it, it is an impingement, it is a restriction on our time and on our normal discourse.

   24. KTKaiwei Tang21:06

       Yeah, because it's so addictive. Like, you, you can't w- we all have this nervous habit to just check it every couple of minutes, every couple of seconds. It, it, it just ve- extremely powerful over, have so much power over us. Um, yeah, we just don't, we just feel like we need to do something else to, um, to help out (laughs) -

   25. CWChris Williamson21:28

       I agree, man.

   26. KTKaiwei Tang21:29

       ... if that makes-

   27. CWChris Williamson21:29

       I, I agree indeed. But yeah, like you say, it's, th- the, Tristan's approach, um, from Time Well Spent and The Center for Humane Technology, both of those, check them out if you're listening and, um, the links will be in the description below. Um, those are important, important systemic changes, but they're a cultural change, and I do think that that's going to come about through understanding, through disseminating information and, you know, y- you are right that the, the economy at the moment is driving people in that direction. So it's not, it's not a fix which can be reached very quickly. I don't think that it's-

   28. KTKaiwei Tang22:13

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson22:13

       ... the sort of solution which is going to manifest itself or it's, it's, um, a destination, should I say, which is going to be reached very quickly.

   30. KTKaiwei Tang22:24

       Yeah. I, I mean, I, I obviously wish that that could bring like, immediately impact as well. Um, uh, I think we, we as human, we need, we need to fight back. Um, uh, um, and with Light Phone, I think, uh, our philosophy, um, uh, when we started, um, designing, designing it and, and creating a vision, we don't, we don't really see Light Phone as a solution to smartphone addiction. The Light Phone to us, i- it's actually, it's a question that we want to post to our users. Well, what is the question? The question is, when you go out with Light Phone, you have no smartphone, you have no social media, no game, no message, no notification. What are you gonna do? What's important in your life? What are you gonna think about? Who are you gonna talk to? When you get bored, what's imp- what's essential to you? Like, I make, I think all this profound question that we right now, especially nowadays that we have smartphones all the time, you just, you know, take it out and, and, and spending time on it. Like, we forget to do all that. I think that's like so important to us as human to, to really have time, um, creating environment, creating the time for us to, you know, have a conversation with ourselves. (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   You're, you're really right.…

   1. KTKaiwei Tang30:00

      uh, stores like... but we just willingly give it, give those all up. Um, so yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:06

      You're, you're really right. I think what... something that one of my, um, one of my work colleagues said to me about a year ago on a similas- similar subject, and he asked, "What was the last three things that you liked on any social media?"

   3. KTKaiwei Tang30:21

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:21

      And if the listeners can try and do that, if... unless they've got their phone in front of them now, if you can try and think about the last three things that you clicked like on, on Instagram or Facebook, I, I have absolutely no idea. Uh, the-

   5. KTKaiwei Tang30:35

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson30:35

      ... you know, those, those things were so worthy of my time that I sacrificed some of my life to go on to this device and look at them, and then-... give a judgment of positivity in response to it, and yet upon being asked to recall it 20 minutes later, I can't even tell you what it was.

   7. KTKaiwei Tang30:59

      (laughs) Yeah. We just-

   8. CWChris Williamson31:01

      I, I (laughs)

   9. KTKaiwei Tang31:02

      ... quick think so quickly. It's just, we, we don't, you know, we don't really spend time digesting. Uh, you just flip it through. We have so much information all the time. Um, you know-

   10. CWChris Williamson31:13

       You, you're right, yeah. It's, it's al- it's almost such an information overload as people go through, through their phone that the depth of interaction has to be, by very nature, shallow in order to fit the breadth of consumption in. Do you think that's fair to say?

   11. KTKaiwei Tang31:32

       (laughs) Totally. And, and I, I also think it's because, um, it's easy. We always, we, we, you know, we're human. We always want ... We're lazy. We want easy way out.

   12. CWChris Williamson31:43

       Mm-hmm.

   13. KTKaiwei Tang31:44

       That's why we have smartphones, for when you feel challenged, when you feel awkward, when you feel bored. You have, you have a way out. Same thing with social media, same thing with anything. Like when you have a difficult thought, you just wanna, you know, instead of like really dive into it, really like think about it, you're just k- blindly consuming information without even, uh, thinking about it. Um, (laughs) yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson32:08

       The boredom, the boredom thing's a really interesting one as well. I'd seen a study online that said something like, more than 60% of people admit to using their phone on the toilet. And I, I honestly saw that and thought, "Is it only 60%?" Like, I don't know anyone (laughs) , I don't know anybody that goes to the bathroom and doesn't take their, their mobile phone with them. Like, and that-

   15. KTKaiwei Tang32:30

       100%.

   16. CWChris Williamson32:30

       That bathroom thing is such a big deal. Like, you know, that's the one time where (laughs) you probably can afford to be alone with your thoughts.

   17. KTKaiwei Tang32:39

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson32:39

       And we're, you know, we're having a swipe through Instagram and we're doing all, all bits and pieces like that. You think, "Well, yeah." The-

   19. KTKaiwei Tang32:48

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson32:48

       ... the boredom is part and parcel, and the silence is part and parcel as well. And I, I think that the rates of anxiety, mental health, and suicide is the number one killer of men in the UK under the age of 40. You know, rates of anxiety ... It's Mental Health Week this week actually in the UK. And, uh, in a society where we're trying to reduce anxiety, reduce depression, and, uh, I'm going to guess that there will be some-

   21. KTKaiwei Tang33:15

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:15

       ... stu- some studies that I'm not aware of, is smartphone use ... Has smartphone use been scientifically linked with anxiety and depression yet, or are you aware if it has?

   23. KTKaiwei Tang33:26

       I, I'm not, but, uh, I might. We always believe that being well-connected won't make us any happier. Uh, looking at people's feed won't make you happy. It just gonna make you more anxious. You're, you're gonna compare, and, and, and for, for teenagers, for young people that didn't real- didn't really realize that, you know, social media or internet is just one side of, just one small angle of, uh-

   24. CWChris Williamson33:58

       Mm-hmm.

   25. KTKaiwei Tang33:58

       ... this person's life.

   26. CWChris Williamson33:59

       (laughs)

   27. KTKaiwei Tang33:59

       Like you see, you know, you see like, "Oh, I'm always pondering on my Face- pondering on Facebook. I'm always out traveling on my Facebook or Twitter or social media," but that's not ch- real life.

   28. CWChris Williamson34:11

       At all.

   29. KTKaiwei Tang34:11

       That's just reflection of one angle of this person's life.

   30. CWChris Williamson34:16

       I'm s-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      spent a lot of time making this cake and organizing this big procession to arrive with her, and the camera pans round to her sat on this table, and she's watching her own 21st birthday cake arrive through the lens of her phone because she's so desperate to get the Instagram story to put up about that. And you think, "Ugh." We've all been there, like we've all done something, you know, videoing a, a gig or a-

   2. KTKaiwei Tang45:26

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:26

      ... videoing a c- a concert or, or it's, you know, something beautiful that was happening. But, uh, (sighs) you know-

   4. KTKaiwei Tang45:35

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson45:35

      ... who, who's it for? Because the memory of that happening w- for you will be much more valuable than the video that gets shown to your friends.

   6. KTKaiwei Tang45:45

      I know. I know. It just, uh, uh, it's like you go to a concert, everyone's putting their phone up, recording and blocking your view. I mean-

   7. CWChris Williamson45:53

      (laughs)

   8. KTKaiwei Tang45:53

      ... every time it happens, I was like, "Oh, God! I watched this concert."

   9. CWChris Williamson45:58

      Yeah.

   10. KTKaiwei Tang45:58

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson45:58

       There's a, um, there's, there's a really funny meme that I saw that was floating around on the internet, and it said, um, something like, "I was sat down on the subway, looking at the man across from me, and he didn't have his phone out. He wasn't sat there texting or swiping through Instagram. He just sat there looking out of the window like a psychopath."

   12. KTKaiwei Tang46:17

       Oh. Okay.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:17

       And you think, (laughs) like...

   14. KTKaiwei Tang46:20

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson46:20

       ... it's such a comment on modern society that that's, that's the weird thing to do.

   16. KTKaiwei Tang46:28

       Yeah. Uh, that remind me of a story, not story, uh, um... Uh, yeah, it's a story. So, so, uh, me and my co-founder, we, uh, a couple years ago, we were in San Francisco, uh, doing this, you know, retail relationship things. But anyway, we, we were, uh, in line, um, in front of a restaurant, and, uh, in the line in front of us is a, a dad and his daughter. And his daughter just, you know, keep shouting and screaming, saying, "I don't want to be here! This is... Bored. I'm bored, I'm bored. I don't want to be here." So typically, you were expecting, you know, your, the dad just like give her a smartphone-

   17. CWChris Williamson47:09

       Mm-hmm.

   18. KTKaiwei Tang47:10

       ... give her an iPad or something to take her attention away. But he didn't do that. He sat her down and actually say that, "Hey, we talk about this. Boredom is the chance to learn." I was like, "Wha- (laughs) what?"

   19. CWChris Williamson47:26

       Wow.

   20. KTKaiwei Tang47:27

       "I need to videotape this. This is so good." (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson47:30

       Yeah.

   22. KTKaiwei Tang47:31

       I didn't expect him to say anything like that, but like, wow, I need to give you a Light Phone right now. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson47:36

       Yeah, (laughs) for sure. Well, I, you know, I think that that man's daughter has got a good chance of growing up to be a very mindful and-

   24. KTKaiwei Tang47:45

       Oh.

   25. CWChris Williamson47:45

       ... well-balanced human being-

   26. KTKaiwei Tang47:47

       Oh, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:47

       ... who's going to be able to deal with awkwardness, she's going to be able to deal with her emotions coming to the forefront with sadness, and it's not going to need numbing or hiding away by-

   28. KTKaiwei Tang47:58

       Exactly.

   29. CWChris Williamson47:58

       ... by get- by getting behind a phone. So, s- uh, Light Phone, at the moment, are w- I'm right in saying that you guys, you guys raised quite a lot of money on, on Kickstarter projects, right?

   30. KTKaiwei Tang48:11

       Yeah. We... So three years ago, we raised 400,000, uh, on Kickstarter. Um, and then we go on raise another 3 million from private investor-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:00:16

   Thank you very much,…

   1. KTKaiwei Tang1:00:00

      Thank you.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      Thank you very much, man. Thanks for chatting.

   3. NANarrator1:00:05

      (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:00:16