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Reflecting On My Mental Flaws & Strengths | Modern Wisdom Podcast 263

Charlotte Fox-Weber is a Psychotherapist and an author. As a therapist of many years, Charlotte saw an opportunity to turn the mic around on me for once and ask some questions about how I see myself and why I do what I do. Definitely a change of pace today but I really enjoyed opening up. There are some takeaways in here which might illuminate your own mental state and thought patterns. Sponsors: Get 83% discount & 3 months free from Surfshark VPN at https://surfshark.deals/MODERNWISDOM (use code MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Follow Charlotte on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlotte-fox-weber-aa287219/ Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #chriswilliamson #mindset #mentalstate - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Chris WilliamsonhostCharlotte Fox-Weberguest
Dec 28, 202059mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:37

    Embrace your weirdness: extraordinary outcomes require extraordinary inputs

    1. CW

      No one can beat you at being you. And as I've embraced-

    2. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... my weirdness and the fact that I don't necessarily fit into an archetype, as-

    4. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... tons and tons and tons of people do. They all feel this, and they nerf the edges, they round off the edges of the interesting stuff that they do in life, to try and make themselves fit into the bell curve of what normal is. If you're trying to be normal, by definition, you're regressing to the mean.

    6. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      Normal people get normal results. Extraordinary people get extraordinary results. We all want, somehow, everybody wants to both be the most popular, most liked person on the planet, and also Elon Musk or Conor McGregor, or one of the Kardashians or something.

    8. CF

      Mm-hmm.

  2. 0:37 – 1:56

    Resetting your perspective: routines, thought patterns, and the SAS “break point”

    1. CW

      And you think y- you don't get it both ways. Those people have ridiculous outcomes because they have ridiculous inputs. You can choose one, but you can't choose both. This year's been a year of living kind of Groundhog Day over and over again. It doesn't matter how varied your life is, everyone, in one form or another, has had the guardrails brought in on variety in life.

    2. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      And I think what that can cause you to do is probably get into, in the same way as you get into lifestyle patterns habitually, you get into thought patterns as well. And-

    4. CF

      Hm.

    5. CW

      ... that includes narratives around how you see things going, just how you perceive stuff. I walked back-

    6. CF

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... into my house when I got here, and I looked at the kitchen, and the kitchen looked different. Like, it actually looked like the dimensions of things were different. I was like, "Has something been moved in here?" And it worked out-

    8. CF

      Hm.

    9. CW

      ... that it hadn't, but I'd been the best part of four weeks since I'd seen it.

    10. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      And there's a concept that the SAS use called a break point, and it's the moment before they will breach a door. So, they'll get, stack up outside of the door, and that break point there is where they kind of rest, reset, and plan to go in. And, uh, I kinda considered that trip out to Dubai as a little bit of a break point. Um-

    12. CF

      I like that.

    13. CW

      It's a cool concept, isn't it?

    14. CF

      I'm very jealous. Yeah.

    15. CW

      But anyway, we're rolling. So-

    16. CF

      Really like that.

  3. 1:56 – 3:42

    Charlotte flips the script: therapist-style questioning of the interviewer

    1. CW

      ... Charlotte Fox Webber, welcome-

    2. CF

      Okay.

    3. CW

      ... welcome back. You are so much less super pregnant than the last time that we spoke.

    4. CF

      (laughs) It's a pleasure to be here, and I'm, I'm happy to not be pregnant. Although, I have a beautiful baby from it, so-

    5. CW

      You got a, you got a baby out of it, yeah, but you're just-

    6. CF

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... like now half the size.

    8. CF

      (laughs) Thank you.

    9. CW

      Uh, so what are we doing today? You wanted to do this thing, you said, "I have an idea for an episode. I wanna come on and talk to you."

    10. CF

      Absolutely. I, I have a real interest in understanding the life of a podcaster. And you're a particularly good one. I shouldn't just generalize it as the life of a podcaster, 'cause there are so many, and that, that doesn't narrow it down enough. You ask exceptional questions. You are constantly curious. I would say curiosity must be a driving force for you. What is it like to be a question asker, a seeker, a constant conversationalist? I wanna get into your mind. I'm, I'm curious for what it says about you psychologically. Um, I think that there's certain similarities between how you approach things and, and my work as a psychotherapist. Trying to understand, inquiring, probing, looking at what's underneath, engaging intensely, wholeheartedly. Um, but it can also be a way of avoiding and not disclosing. So, I'm here to challenge you in a way, because we've, we've had some very interesting exchanges and conversations, and I just wanna turn it round, 'cause that's what I do. (laughs)

    11. CW

      That sounds good, yeah. I, uh, I'm not sure what I'm in for today, but yeah, let's get started. Let's do this.

    12. CF

      Okay. You can always tell me when I'm pushing too much and, and you don't have to say anything you don't wanna say.

    13. CW

      Cool.

  4. 3:42 – 7:47

    Why ask so many questions? Curiosity as a social superpower

    1. CF

      So, what is it like to constantly ask questions?

    2. CW

      That's an interesting one. When I was in Dubai recently, we were, me and a, a friend that I was out there with, George, we were at a party that was very, very not socially distanced at a p- around a pool with a few hundred people. And three different sets of people said the same thing to both of us, and they asked us separately, "Why are you asking so many questions?"

    3. CF

      Hm.

    4. CW

      In like kind of a suspicious way.

    5. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      The first thing that that identified was that we ask a lot of questions 'cause curious. The second thing was that in a place like Dubai, which is perhaps a little bit showy and to do with wealth, it's obvious that the game of tennis that people play when they converse is, "I'm waiting for you to finish saying your thing so I can say my thing."

    7. CF

      Right.

    8. CW

      Um, being honest, I was probably quite a selfish conversationalist for a long time-

    9. CF

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    10. CW

      ... and it's been trained into me that actually in a conversation, the most selfish thing that you can do is ask questions, because you don't know what the other person knows. You only know what you know. So, by-

    11. CF

      Got it.

    12. CW

      ... asking questions, you elicit very interesting stories.

    13. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CW

      Um, I tweeted something today actually about the fact that people who think they're introverts might not be introverts. They might just have friends that suck, and-

    15. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      ... I certainly notice I, I ask fewer questions when I'm with people that I'm not really that interested in what they have to say (laughs) , which sounds-

    17. CF

      Right.

    18. CW

      ... sounds kinda terrible, but makes, also makes sense. Like, you're not gonna dig as hard in a gold mine that you don't believe there's any gold in.

    19. CF

      Right.

    20. CW

      Um, so yeah. I certainly have cultivated that, and I think weaponizing curiosity, or that's not right. Disciplining curiosity into-

    21. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CW

      ... a effective mode of discourse is something that I've really, really enjoyed doing, and it's kinda been stepped up, especially this year. Uh, and I really feel that it's an art form, like the art of asking good questions without breaking the flow and without sort of losing where you're at, and guiding-

    23. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CW

      ... the person that you're with has made for, outside of the show, it's made for some of the deepest connections that I've ever had. Me and my friend again, George, we did this flight out to Dubai, and from Amsterdam to Dubai is seven hours on the nose.

    25. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. CW

      And we didn't stop speaking for the entire way there. And it was-

    27. CF

      Wow.

    28. CW

      ... just us asking, like, we went...... from "are sex robots ethical" to "what's the future of Bitcoin" to, like, everything. And there was this-

    29. CF

      Hmm.

    30. CW

      ... poor, poor girl, uh, sat behind him, who must have been the only British person probably within about three meters, and, uh, she didn't have any headphones in. She must have been thinking, "Just shut the fuck up."

  5. 7:47 – 10:03

    Being asked questions, ego, and making guests shine

    1. CF

      So, tell me how you feel when people ask you questions. Does it ever kind of make you feel uncomfortable or turn the spotlight on you in an awkward way?

    2. CW

      Not really. I think for a long time, again, only child background, and then-

    3. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      ... coming into doing this sort of a, an industry, I've always been used to having at least some form of center of attention.

    5. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      And perhaps my desire now to kind of discipline my curiosity into questions is me casting off what was once me very much being kind of selfish when it came to these sorts of conversations.

    7. CF

      Hmm. Hmm.

    8. CW

      It was all about me, me, me, and now this is me almost going in the polar opposite direction, and still finding joy in that. Um, I don't find it awkward at all. It's like a, a little bit of the old me comes out when I get to talk like this, where I get to indulge and it's my turn, it's me in the limelight.

    9. CF

      Right.

    10. CW

      Um-

    11. CF

      Right.

    12. CW

      But I genuinely do enjoy creating a platform that allows whoever I'm speaking to to be at their absolute best. Like, a ton of things that I give as advice to other podcasters, stuff, for instance, that the audience will never see, f- like when I'm on a Skype call with someone, I'll nod all the time. Just as they're talking, I'll just keep on nodding-

    13. CF

      Hmm.

    14. CW

      ... like this. Like that Churchill dog in the back of the car, like just constantly going away, 'cause I want the other person to feel comfortable and confident, like they-

    15. CF

      You're encouraging.

    16. CW

      Yeah. I, I, I hear you. This is what you're saying. Keep on going, mate. Keep on going, mate. That sounds good.

    17. CF

      Right.

    18. CW

      That sounds good. Um, so I love, I love doing that, and that has been a really interesting transformation, and there may be... I think it's perhaps something that young guys get a lot, this sort of male posturing when you're, you know, you break out of your teens into your 20s-

    19. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. CW

      ... you want to be a, an alpha guy, you want to be attractive, you want to be confident and charismatic. And you can often mistake brashness and over self-sufficiency for that.

    21. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CW

      And I think, yeah, by far, whether it's trying to get laid or trying to make mates, like, having curiosity, genuine curiosity in what other people say. It was enough that a bunch of different people at a party who were drunk highlighted, like, "What the fuck are you doing asking questions?"

  6. 10:03 – 19:03

    Tolerating non-disclosure: awkwardness, silence, and pacing

    1. CF

      So, do you ever encounter people who really don't open up to you? And how do you deal with that?

    2. CW

      Being honest, my sample size for how long I've been doing this is probably not that big. Um-

    3. CF

      Right. How long have you been doing this?

    4. CW

      18 months, I'd guess, speaking-

    5. CF

      Hmm.

    6. CW

      ... like this consistently.

    7. CF

      Yeah.

    8. CW

      Um, and yeah, I think that was definitely one of the things, and again, any sort of budding, aspiring podcasters out there, if you're not used to asking questions, that's probably the first skill that you need-

    9. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CW

      ... to learn, that it's your job to just get that curiosity, turn it into, like, a pharmaceutical, nuclear-grade weapon and fire-

    11. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      ... it at the other person (laughs) as much as possible. Um, yeah, so I, I, I, sometimes people don't want to open up, uh, in person, but you kind of-

    13. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CW

      ... get that impression if you're not on the same wavelength anyway, if you're not vibrating at the same frequency, you kind of sense that.

    15. CF

      But, uh, I think it's very hard. I find it hard as a therapist, um, w- when people won't open up to me. It's something I've had-

    16. CW

      I bet you do.

    17. CF

      ... to learn to tolerate.

    18. CW

      Is, is that not frustrating?

    19. CF

      It is. And, and I also find it socially as well, it's something I've had to endure and, and respect, because not everyone is open, and that's okay. I don't need to hit it off and d- connect incredibly deeply with everyone. But th- that's something I've definitely had to learn and be patient about. And I don't know if you find that as well, that sometimes you don't, you don't engage as intensely, you don't a- have a deep rapport with absolutely everyone.

    20. CW

      Absolutely, yeah.

    21. CF

      So, do you ever ask people questions where they just kind of avoid or don't go further, don't take the conversation anywhere, and, and you have to deal with that?

    22. CW

      Yeah, sometimes. I think-

    23. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CW

      ... my capacity to deal with awkwardness is actually f- fairly low, and that's something I've had to learn to deal with as well.

    25. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. CW

      That sitting with silence and sitting with awkwardness as a, a podcaster or just a conversationalist-

    27. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. CW

      ... is something I really didn't like. I think it was born out of a r- a rooted lack of confidence in my own ability, uh-

    29. CF

      Right.

    30. CW

      ... either as sort of socially or as a podcaster, and-... silence to me meant I'm not interesting, or they're not interested in me, or I'm not m- moving this conversation in the right direction, or they're gonna think this sucks, or whatever it might be. And yeah, for a long time, sitting with that silence w- was the most uncomfortable thing. And then-

  7. 19:03 – 21:59

    Are self-improvement and curiosity sometimes a way to hide from self-acceptance?

    1. CF

      Hmm.

    2. CW

      ... a neutron star or whatever it might be. Like anything, whenever I learn any of this stuff or a little pithy aphorism about life or s- anything, I- I adore it and it makes me incredibly happy. And I think... I wonder how much of that... So here's something that I was gonna, I was gonna bring up with you obviously, with your insights into psychology, was that how much do you think of the personal development world, the personal growth, self-development movement that we're seeing at the moment is people using that to hide from the per- a person that they don't like deep down? So if you say, "I don't like me as I am now-"

    3. CF

      Hmm.

    4. CW

      "... but if I continue to grow every day between now and the day that I die, perhaps the person that I turn into might be acceptable and worthy of love," how often-

    5. CF

      Hmm.

    6. CW

      ... do you think it is that you come across people like that?

    7. CF

      I... That's a really interesting question. I, I like to think that Carl Rogers was right in saying that it's a paradox. We have to accept who we are in order to make changes. So I think that self-acceptance is often a part of growth, and it's the same conversation in a way, if that makes sense.

    8. CW

      Yeah, I get it. I, it's something I've been thinking about so much this year, that I have some friends that-

    9. CF

      Hmm.

    10. CW

      ... I think their desire for growth comes from a, a really good place. I think it comes from a place of just wanting to be better without s- feelings of insufficiency that's driving it. But I also-

    11. CF

      Hmm.

    12. CW

      ... think that there is a huge group, perhaps even the majority, maybe not, but perhaps even the majority of people who are tumbling down the personal growth rabbit hole in a desperate attempt to try and find a person who they are going to be proud to look in the mirror and be.

    13. CF

      Hmm.

    14. CW

      Um, I read this quote the other day about how people who have a, a, a low sense of self-worth can sometimes find, in development, a hope for, a hope for a better future, basically.

    15. CF

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      Does that make sense?

    17. CF

      I, that makes a lot of sense, and I think y- I think that you're onto something really important, which is especially prevalent during the pandemic. There's a huge amount of pressure to self-actualize, and the wellness industry, the well-being industry I... suggests that we have to constantly be updating, improving, progressing, growing, and actually, what about self-acceptance? So I think there is that sense of coming to therapy thinking, "Fix me," and that can hide as, "I want to develop and grow." But actually, sometimes celebrating where you are already is, is a profoundly important thing. And, and I think people can come to therapy and discover that actually what they thought was a flaw turns out to be a strength. So...

  8. 21:59 – 25:33

    Turning flaws into strengths: the ‘ram with horns,’ nosiness, sensitivity, outsiderhood

    1. CW

      What like?

    2. CF

      Well, I'll give you one example, although you're totally doing your thing and turning this around on me. I see how you did that. But if you, if you can see, I'm wearing a necklace, which is a ram with horns. (laughs) A therapist I went to once said to me, in I think quite an unkind way, "You are like a ram with horns." And I think she meant it as an insult. It was an intervention, and I decided to take it as a compliment, and I began collecting rams with horns, and I-

    3. CW

      (laughs)

    4. CF

      I love rams with horns. When I was in Italy recently, I saw rams with horns and I related to them and felt like we were one. Uh, one of the things I took from that therapy was accidental. She didn't mean for me to take it. It's not what I thought I would get from it. But I arrived in therapy thinking, "I need to let go of this aspect of myself." And I left thinking, "Actually, that's part of who I am."

    5. CW

      What-

    6. CF

      "I don't really want to change that. I'm a ram."

    7. CW

      What is a ram? What is a ram with horns?

    8. CF

      It means that I can be quite attached to certain things, and I probably get very assiduous about certain, certain issues and, and struggle to let things go, and a ram with horns, uh, uh, I mean, it can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing. So there are times where I absolutely need to let go and not fixate and not obsess. But there are times where I think I'm very passionate and conscientious and I will go above and beyond for something, and that's part of who I am. So it's a strength and a weakness. But it's not, it's not just one or the other, and I've decided to kind of embrace that aspect of myself. So I think sometimes celebrating our flaws is a massive victory, and, and it can take a lot of work to get there. It, it's a kind of journey for many. I know it's an overused term to say journey, but I didn't always realize that I liked being a ram with horns. And actually when she said it to me, I probably felt initially quite offended and hurt, but no longer.

    9. CW

      Well, I mean, a perfect example of that is I think I would have probably been called nosy as a kid.

    10. CF

      There you go. So same here. Totally, totally relating to that one.

    11. CW

      And what's nosiness? Like, you roll that forward and then you discipline it down. You make it a little bit... You put a bow on it. You make the rough-

    12. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      ... the rough edges a little bit less rough. I really do think one of the things I'd love everybody to take away is the, um, barbell or the, the two-sided coin paradox that is strength and weakness, uh, that-

    14. CF

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... you know, being nosy-... as a kid, or being a, a gobshite, which would be someone who kind of talks a little bit too much. If you can-

    16. CF

      Can I add to the list-

    17. CW

      Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's make it-

    18. CF

      ... of things that are strengths and weaknesses?

    19. CW

      Let's make it longer.

    20. CF

      Um, okay, so being nosy, definitely one. Sensitive, definitely another for me.

    21. CW

      Were you sensitive as a kid?

    22. CF

      Of course. And most therapists are, I think. Some are insensitive maybe, but yeah, I was told I was sensitive and, and that felt like a weakness and now it's a strength, absolutely. Um, empathy is one. I know it's very trendy now for children to be taught empathy. I, I don't remember thinking that it was an advantage, because I felt things acutely. And I would hear about an upsetting story and it would really get under my skin and stay with me, and I didn't know how to kind of process it. And, and now I've, I've managed to make use of it, because actually caring e- is a really good thing in, in my world. But I, I sometimes cared in a way that felt disproportionate as a child. And ...

  9. 25:33 – 31:11

    Compassion vs. over-awareness: depth of feeling, hypervigilance, and ‘can’t unsee’ truths

    1. CW

      Do you cry at, like, uh, romantic Christmas movies and, like, beautiful sort of sad, uh, films and things?

    2. CF

      I, I felt it all. I still feel a lot, yeah. But understanding that, that strong feelings can actually be a wonderful, life-enhancing thing ha- has taken time for me.

    3. CW

      Yeah. There was a, a question asked by an audience member when I went to go and see Jordan Peterson live in Manchester a couple of years ago. Uh, and the question boiled down to the depth of my consciousness causes me to suffer. I'd prefer to be ignorant, like my dog, than have to ... That, that, that, yeah, it's both a blessing and a curse to feel everything so very deeply.

    4. CF

      Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    5. CW

      Um, and I, I, I understood the question, and I, I really sort of empathized with the question as well.

    6. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      But we don't have that luxury. We don't have that choice. It's like, um, the Allegory of the Cave. Do you know that? Plato's Allegory-

    8. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      ... of the Cave?

    10. CF

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      Um, so I, I advise anyone who doesn't know what that is to just go on, go on YouTube and learn about it. It's basically taking the red pill, that once you see something, you can't unsee it.

    12. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      Once you learn something, you can't unlearn it. Um, and that's the beautiful thing about having a conversation, that when someone convinces you of something, it's, it's like, it's literally like a parasite in your brain, but hopefully one that's good. Someone convinces you of something, you can no longer be unconvinced.

    14. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      And, um, yes, I think that the depth of experience giving you that richness in life is something that can cause people to have turmoil, right? Like it can hurt.

    16. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      It hurt, it hurts to feel things that you know other people probably don't even notice.

    18. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      That way that that person glanced at you, that slight shoulder turn, or the fact that they hugged everybody else and just gave you a, a, a handshake when they left-

    20. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... or whatever it might be, all of these little things. And even just the fact that I notice this stuff, like these are all examples that I've seen, not on me, but in other people in the last month-

    22. CF

      Right.

    23. CW

      ... because I've been around ... I'm not used to being (laughs) around so many people. I was just like hyper social-

    24. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      ... for four weeks. And all I'm doing is observing, just looking at stuff. But what's that? That's the nosiness coming through again. That's the curiosity.

    26. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      That's the-

    28. CF

      Hypervigilance, I, I would call it too.

    29. CW

      Yeah, perhaps.

    30. CF

      A bit.

  10. 31:11 – 35:38

    A hard prompt: childhood outsider pain, inner critic origins, and ‘I don’t know’ as honesty

    1. CF

      Um, tell us something disturbing, something surprising. Take a risk. It doesn't have to be the big Trauma with a capital T, maybe trauma with a lowercase t.

    2. CW

      Um, so I've certainly sort of realized a lot, i- kind of following on from what we just said there, realized a lot that the sort of insights that I've got by, by being an outsider are-

    3. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      ... very liberating and very enjoyable. Um, but at the time, just felt like such a curse. Like, I just didn't fit in, I couldn't... I remember I used to think about how other people dressed or, uh, uh, find bizarre quirks in how groups of people that I wanted to, them to like me, what I thought it was they were doing that was binding them together as a group is like, "Oh, it's because they were all wearing, like, skinny jeans and I was wearing loose-fitting jeans." Or, "It's because they all walked this way to school or I walked that way to school," or whatever it might be. Um, and I think that for a long time, I was just confused by a lack of acceptance.

    5. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      Especially as a young kid. And again, without necessarily a brother or a sister or someone who's kind of either always got your back and/or can teach you the common rules of socializing.

    7. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      Um, that was, that's really only something kind of like realizing the impact that my childhood had on me is very, very much only something that I've come back to. And-

    9. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CW

      ... in a way, it's really, it, I find it fascinating. I really enjoy tracking the line, tracing the route that different elements of me has walked, and everyone that's listening can think the same, like, everything that you are now is the flower that's grown out of a seed of something that was planted when you were much younger. And-

    11. CF

      Right.

    12. CW

      ... again, another School of Life video is where they talk about bad inner voices and they say all bad inner voices were once a bad outer voice.

    13. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CW

      Um, and when you hear the way that you criticize yourself for underachieving at X or-

    15. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      ... not being good enough at Y, or the, the shame that you feel when you make a blunder s- socially, whatever it might be, a lot of those voices, if you listen closely enough, they're spoken in a cadence of someone that you can remember from when you were much younger.

    17. CF

      Sure.

    18. CW

      Uh-

    19. CF

      So for you, let's get specific, let's get personal.

    20. CW

      I don't know, being honest, like I... This is why I asked you to be my therapist and you said-

    21. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CW

      ... that we know each other too well and you won't do it.

    23. CF

      (laughs)

    24. CW

      Um, but being... I, I haven't done this work. There is a-

    25. CF

      Yeah. But there's work to be done.

    26. CW

      Oh, yeah, there's tons.

    27. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. CW

      And I find it interesting, like, I genuinely have embraced the opportunity to delve into the, into these sort of deeper areas of myself.

    29. CF

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      Um, but I, I, I don't know. Like, I can listen ali- I can listen quietly enough to know that it's a familiar voice, but I don't really know what the amalgamation of everything is.

  11. 35:38 – 38:44

    Therapist questions in practice: surviving the unbearable and discovering resilience (Achilles rupture)

    1. CW

      Given that we're talking about questions at the moment, have you got any of the favorite questions that you like to ask your clients as, like, opening questions that-

    2. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... people who are listening-

    4. CF

      I-

    5. CW

      ... can ask themselves and maybe to sort of take away from this and, and ruminate on over the next while?

    6. CF

      Sure. I mean, I don't encourage ruminating, but sure. Um, tell me about a time that you thought you couldn't survive. And tell me about what got you to the other side or if you have gotten to the other side.

    7. CW

      That's a cool question.

    8. CF

      It's not a question I always ask, but I am asking you.

    9. CW

      Uh, I can definitely take one from this year that going into the... I ruptured my Achilles-

    10. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      ... three and a half months ago, and as someone who sometimes has catastrophic thinking, I just presumed that it would go badly. I didn't think-

    12. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      ... I had a particularly good constitution.... to be resilient in that sort of a situation.

    14. CF

      Mm.

    15. CW

      You know, if- if I can get sad and upset when there's ostensibly nothing wrong, when there's really something wrong, just how-

    16. CF

      Mm.

    17. CW

      ... fucked am I gonna be? Um-

    18. CF

      Mm.

    19. CW

      And I think I- I just presumed I was a lot more fragile than I was. Um-

    20. CF

      Fascinating.

    21. CW

      Yeah, it was interesting. I- I found-

    22. CF

      Mm.

    23. CW

      ... in myself a room, it was like living in a house for your entire life and finding a door to a room that you didn't know existed, and you open it-

    24. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      ... and it's like a fucking bunker, and it's lead-lined, and there's a shotgun in there, and you can-

    26. CF

      Mm.

    27. CW

      ... take on a lot. It was very endogenous, it came out of somewhere inside-

    28. CF

      Mm.

    29. CW

      ... of me. Um, and I think that that's reassuring for people who think that maybe they don't have the resilience, they see people who go through much, much worse things than I do, you know, people who've been like human trafficked or captured by terrorists or, you know, lost both of their legs, who've been terminally ill-

    30. CF

      Mm.

  12. 38:44 – 51:08

    Unremarkable depression: shame, meta-loops, and why rational advice often fails

    1. CW

      But it makes me think, like, what on earth was going on? Why am I, why was there periods during my 20s-

    2. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... where I wouldn't be able to get out of bed for days on end just-

    4. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... crushed under the weight of existence, when there was nothing wrong?

    6. CF

      So, sure. I mean, it's- it's really interesting how there are times in life when stepping in a puddle is traumatic, and other times when you have a true disaster and- and you can actually deal with it. And I think sometimes it's harder when things aren't going wrong and- and you're just feeling a kind of despair. So I feel for the person in you where, uh, everything was ostensibly going okay and you were really suffering.

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. CF

      Just carrying the weight of existence. That's still hard.

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. CF

      In some ways harder, because the world couldn't even see what was wrong, and you didn't even have any explanation for what was happening.

    11. CW

      Yeah. The- the shame around depression was something that I took, it took me an awfully long time to deal with.

    12. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      The... E- e- especially because of the asymmetry we see online now that we are, we all now not only have to live up to other people's ideals but the ideal that we've set for ourselves on our own social-

    14. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      ... media channel, right? Like you put yourself across as X, Y and Z, and then one day you're fucking the Batman symbol and you think, "Oh, hang on, like I'm supposed to be X, Y or Z here." And you-

    16. CF

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      ... you have to try and compensate, and yeah, I wa- I was so ashamed, like the fact, "Why am I in bed? Like why can't I get out of bed? Why can't I feel good about life?" I haven't got any problems, have I?

    18. CF

      So it got very meta.

    19. CW

      Oh yeah, hugely. And obviously those-

    20. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... thought loops kind of make everything worse. Um, and I can rationalize, you know, I've got advice, I've given advice to tons and tons of people of how I try, to try and deal with depressive episodes.

    22. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      But at the time, it just feels like drowning in thoughts. Like that's-

    24. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      ... what depression feels like. It feels like-

    26. CF

      Sure.

    27. CW

      ... you're drowning under the weight of your own consciousness. And it's such a, it's such a heavy situation to exist in-

    28. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. CW

      ... that it really doesn't surprise me how getting out of bed can feel like it takes a superhuman effort. You know, opening, opening the curtains requires the world's strongest man to give you a hand with it.

    30. CF

      Totally. It's really interesting, in the course of five minutes I feel like you've already changed gears in your attitude towards that time in your life. Because first you said, at first you kind of made light of it, and you said you- you couldn't really cope with life at the time but then you were able to cope with your Achilles. I- I feel like you've now become more compassionate to that, to that inner self.

  13. 51:08 – 56:14

    Life goals, jealousy, and the ego ideal: envy of clarity and envy of your potential self

    1. CF

      So, next question, what would you say to your 102-year-old self? What- what has worked in your life? Wha- what has success meant to you?

    2. CW

      That's still something that I think is, I'm working out. I- I- I think that when you do a ton of self-work, which I've done over the last few years, and hopefully, as more people listen to this show, they kinda get dragged through that world as well.

    3. CF

      Mm.

    4. CW

      Um, I would find it difficult to work out a trajectory for me, 'cause I think I'm still at quite an inflection point. Um, I get really jealous. That's one thing that I do get, uh, i- interestingly jealous about is, whenever I meet people that have very concrete senses of where they want to be longer term. Um, I was talking to this guy while I was in Dubai who said, "Do you know what it is, man?" Like, he's an architect, he's doing all of these different things, making a ton of money, like, very successful, young guy as well.

    5. CF

      Mm.

    6. CW

      And he was like, "Do you know what it is, man? Like, I'm loving what I'm doing at the moment, but I just can't wait to own a bar on a beach with my wife and my couple of kids in somewhere hot."

    7. CF

      Totally clear plan.

    8. CW

      And I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

    9. CF

      Mm.

    10. CW

      Like, why, how, how are you... I was like, that, and I had to call it out. I was like, "Dude, that's a, that's an incredibly precise, well-defined plan." And I didn't think that he was postulating or I didn't think that this was him putting on a facade. Like, he just said it like it was a fact.

    11. CF

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      Like, drop the apple, it falls to the floor.

    13. CF

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      And I was like, "Holy fucking shit. I'm so jealous of that."

    15. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      Like, I- I've never been, I've never been certain about sort of long-term what that is, um ...

    17. CF

      So lots of question marks.

    18. CW

      Yeah, for sure.

    19. CF

      Which is- which is beautiful and great. For my 102-year-old self, there are lots of question marks. There are some qualities that matter, uh, for a good, rich life. But it- it's not too specific. I think it's good to keep these things loose, and- and sp- allow space as well, space for surprise, discovery, growth.

    20. CW

      I think you're right.

    21. CF

      Uh, you used a word that brings us to our next question, jealousy. When was the last time you felt incredibly jealous?

    22. CW

      That certainly comes to mind, that incident that I said there with someone who has this- this super sort of tight trajectory. I mean, I- I think everybody feels envy on an almost second-by-second basis-

    23. CF

      Hm.

    24. CW

      ... when they look at social media, right? Like, I've come back to the UK now, and all of my buddies that I was out there with are still out in Dubai, and I think, "Oh, like, it's so nice and warm out there." But this is something I've certainly realized, that the grass is always greener for us-

    25. CF

      Hm.

    26. CW

      ... as humans, and this stems from evolutionary psychology that humans aren't built to be happy. They're built to be effective.

    27. CF

      Hm.

    28. CW

      We're literally wired to be, to find life unsatisfactory, because if the first time-

    29. CF

      Hm.

    30. CW

      ... that you had sex, you'd never have sex again, if the first time that you ate, you'd never hunt food again.

  14. 56:14 – 59:31

    Five takeaway questions + closing reflections (the sideways-walking crab fable)

    1. CW

      Thank you. Can we try and recap the questions for people f- so that they can remember what we went through?

    2. CF

      Yeah, absolutely. So question one, can we list some traits that felt like flaws in our childhoods, but actually turn out to be strengths? So identify those weaknesses and turn them around into sources of success. Second question, can you think of a time in your life that you didn't think you could survive that felt traumatic and maybe unbearable, and what helped you get to the other side? Third question, what would you say to the most fragile part of yourself? Fourth question, what would you say to your 102-year-old self? Fifth question, can you describe a time when you felt incredibly jealous?

    3. CW

      That's cool.

    4. CF

      Okay. Thank you so much for being so open and brave and- and walking the walk.

    5. CW

      Well, thank you for being here. I'm glad that you bullied me into doing this-

    6. CF

      (laughs)

    7. CW

      ... and completely blindfolded, led me into the room, and then decided to do this. Um, do we know when you're going to complete writing your book?

    8. CF

      Oh, I'm- I'm handing it in in- in May.

    9. CW

      Okay.

    10. CF

      So, yeah.

    11. CW

      And how long is that? Is that like six months from now until publish?

    12. CF

      Um, I, it'll be published early 2022.

    13. CW

      Cool. Well, depending on- depending on how brave you manage to get me over the next year, we may be back on to do a similar episode, and then you will absolutely be back on to talk about that. I really appreciate your friendship. I- I absolutely love the fact that we met each other a year ago, and I'm very, very glad that, uh, you- you pushed me into doing this today.

    14. CF

      Same here. It's such a pleasure. I- I did want to tell you what m- led me to want to ask you all of these questions as well-

    15. CW

      Okay.

    16. CF

      ... which was an Aesop fable. I could have said this at the beginning. Um, it's- it's one of my favorite fables, and I was actually reading it to my six-year-old son the other night. And there's a mother crab who is lecturing her baby crab on the importance of walking straight. And the baby crab says, "But Mom, you're walking sideways." And I think it's a really beautiful, powerful story. I think of it as a therapist all the time of kind of doing as we say, practicing what we preach. So it just made me think, you're constantly asking questions. You're very good at digging deep. Um, I've been on the receiving end of that. You- you bring out interesting, quirky, idiosyncratic encounters all the time. And what is the life for you of- of being that question asker? Um, I wanted to just have a sense of your interior world. So thank you for allowing us to see it.

    17. CW

      Thank you.

    18. NA

      (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 59:32

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