Reflecting On My Mental Flaws & Strengths | Modern Wisdom Podcast 263

Chris Williamson 0:00 No one can beat you at being you. And as I've embraced-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 0:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:03 ... my weirdness and the fact that I don't necessarily fit into an archetype, as-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 0:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:08 ... tons and tons and tons of people do. They all feel this, and they nerf the edges, they round off the edges of the interesting stuff that they do in life, to try and make themselves fit into the bell curve of what normal is. If you're trying to be normal, by definition, you're regressing to the mean.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 0:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:21 Normal people get normal results. Extraordinary people get extraordinary results. We all want, somehow, everybody wants to both be the most popular, most liked person on the planet, and also Elon Musk or Conor McGregor, or one of the Kardashians or something.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 0:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:37 And you think y- you don't get it both ways. Those people have ridiculous outcomes because they have ridiculous inputs. You can choose one, but you can't choose both. This year's been a year of living kind of Groundhog Day over and over again. It doesn't matter how varied your life is, everyone, in one form or another, has had the guardrails brought in on variety in life.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01 And I think what that can cause you to do is probably get into, in the same way as you get into lifestyle patterns habitually, you get into thought patterns as well. And-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:11 Hm.

Chris Williamson 1:11 ... that includes narratives around how you see things going, just how you perceive stuff. I walked back-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:17 ... into my house when I got here, and I looked at the kitchen, and the kitchen looked different. Like, it actually looked like the dimensions of things were different. I was like, "Has something been moved in here?" And it worked out-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:28 Hm.

Chris Williamson 1:29 ... that it hadn't, but I'd been the best part of four weeks since I'd seen it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:32 And there's a concept that the SAS use called a break point, and it's the moment before they will breach a door. So, they'll get, stack up outside of the door, and that break point there is where they kind of rest, reset, and plan to go in. And, uh, I kinda considered that trip out to Dubai as a little bit of a break point. Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:51 I like that.

Chris Williamson 1:52 It's a cool concept, isn't it?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:53 I'm very jealous. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:55 But anyway, we're rolling. So-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:56 Really like that.

Chris Williamson 1:56 ... Charlotte Fox Webber, welcome-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 1:58 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:58 ... welcome back. You are so much less super pregnant than the last time that we spoke.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 2:02 (laughs) It's a pleasure to be here, and I'm, I'm happy to not be pregnant. Although, I have a beautiful baby from it, so-

Chris Williamson 2:10 You got a, you got a baby out of it, yeah, but you're just-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 2:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:12 ... like now half the size.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 2:15 (laughs) Thank you.

Chris Williamson 2:17 Uh, so what are we doing today? You wanted to do this thing, you said, "I have an idea for an episode. I wanna come on and talk to you."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 2:22 Absolutely. I, I have a real interest in understanding the life of a podcaster. And you're a particularly good one. I shouldn't just generalize it as the life of a podcaster, 'cause there are so many, and that, that doesn't narrow it down enough. You ask exceptional questions. You are constantly curious. I would say curiosity must be a driving force for you. What is it like to be a question asker, a seeker, a constant conversationalist? I wanna get into your mind. I'm, I'm curious for what it says about you psychologically. Um, I think that there's certain similarities between how you approach things and, and my work as a psychotherapist. Trying to understand, inquiring, probing, looking at what's underneath, engaging intensely, wholeheartedly. Um, but it can also be a way of avoiding and not disclosing. So, I'm here to challenge you in a way, because we've, we've had some very interesting exchanges and conversations, and I just wanna turn it round, 'cause that's what I do. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:29 That sounds good, yeah. I, uh, I'm not sure what I'm in for today, but yeah, let's get started. Let's do this.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 3:35 Okay. You can always tell me when I'm pushing too much and, and you don't have to say anything you don't wanna say.

Chris Williamson 3:41 Cool.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 3:42 So, what is it like to constantly ask questions?

Chris Williamson 3:49 That's an interesting one. When I was in Dubai recently, we were, me and a, a friend that I was out there with, George, we were at a party that was very, very not socially distanced at a p- around a pool with a few hundred people. And three different sets of people said the same thing to both of us, and they asked us separately, "Why are you asking so many questions?"

Charlotte Fox-Weber 4:11 Hm.

Chris Williamson 4:11 In like kind of a suspicious way.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 4:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:13 The first thing that that identified was that we ask a lot of questions 'cause curious. The second thing was that in a place like Dubai, which is perhaps a little bit showy and to do with wealth, it's obvious that the game of tennis that people play when they converse is, "I'm waiting for you to finish saying your thing so I can say my thing."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 4:30 Right.

Chris Williamson 4:30 Um, being honest, I was probably quite a selfish conversationalist for a long time-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 4:37 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:37 ... and it's been trained into me that actually in a conversation, the most selfish thing that you can do is ask questions, because you don't know what the other person knows. You only know what you know. So, by-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 4:48 Got it.

Chris Williamson 4:48 ... asking questions, you elicit very interesting stories.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 4:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:52 Um, I tweeted something today actually about the fact that people who think they're introverts might not be introverts. They might just have friends that suck, and-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 5:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:01 ... I certainly notice I, I ask fewer questions when I'm with people that I'm not really that interested in what they have to say (laughs) , which sounds-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 5:08 Right.

Chris Williamson 5:08 ... sounds kinda terrible, but makes, also makes sense. Like, you're not gonna dig as hard in a gold mine that you don't believe there's any gold in.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 5:15 Right.

Chris Williamson 5:15 Um, so yeah. I certainly have cultivated that, and I think weaponizing curiosity, or that's not right. Disciplining curiosity into-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 5:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:28 ... a effective mode of discourse is something that I've really, really enjoyed doing, and it's kinda been stepped up, especially this year. Uh, and I really feel that it's an art form, like the art of asking good questions without breaking the flow and without sort of losing where you're at, and guiding-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 5:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:44 ... the person that you're with has made for, outside of the show, it's made for some of the deepest connections that I've ever had. Me and my friend again, George, we did this flight out to Dubai, and from Amsterdam to Dubai is seven hours on the nose.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:57 And we didn't stop speaking for the entire way there. And it was-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:00 Wow.

Chris Williamson 6:01 ... just us asking, like, we went...... from "are sex robots ethical" to "what's the future of Bitcoin" to, like, everything. And there was this-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:09 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:09 ... poor, poor girl, uh, sat behind him, who must have been the only British person probably within about three meters, and, uh, she didn't have any headphones in. She must have been thinking, "Just shut the fuck up."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:21 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:21 'Cause to everyone else it was just foreign language noise, but to her, she was probably hearing our sex robot, Bitcoin-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:27 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:28 ... myriad discussion. So-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:29 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:29 ... yes, that's it. I enjoy it. I enjoy asking questions, and it's something that I wish I'd known a lot, a lot sooner, that it makes for great connections, great friendships, and, and a wonderful conversation.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:40 Fascinating. How old were you when you really discovered the value of asking questions?

Chris Williamson 6:46 Only really since doing this show. Um, you mentioned curiosity-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:51 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:51 ... earlier on, which is the first of my five core values.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 6:55 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:55 And for everyone who hasn't gone and done it yet, Google "Taylor Pearson core values" and the exercise will take you a couple of hours, but it's been one of the most important things I've done this year, which is to identify what my life is built around in terms of values.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:11 Spells out a word, the word is cases, and the C in cases is curiosity.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:16 So, curiosity-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:17 I relate to that.

Chris Williamson 7:18 Do you?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:19 Oh, as a therapist, I mean, I think there's-

Chris Williamson 7:21 Professional psychotherapist of many, many years.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:23 ... nothing, there's nothing worse than a therapist who lacks curiosity. Be interested.

Chris Williamson 7:29 Can you be a therapist without having curiosity?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:32 I mean, you shouldn't be.

Chris Williamson 7:34 Right. Yes.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:36 And it's a sign of something. It can be a real sign of burnout as well. I, I think curiosity is a huge energy source.

Chris Williamson 7:43 Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 7:47 So, tell me how you feel when people ask you questions. Does it ever kind of make you feel uncomfortable or turn the spotlight on you in an awkward way?

Chris Williamson 7:58 Not really. I think for a long time, again, only child background, and then-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 8:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:02 ... coming into doing this sort of a, an industry, I've always been used to having at least some form of center of attention.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 8:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:11 And perhaps my desire now to kind of discipline my curiosity into questions is me casting off what was once me very much being kind of selfish when it came to these sorts of conversations.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 8:28 Hmm. Hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:28 It was all about me, me, me, and now this is me almost going in the polar opposite direction, and still finding joy in that. Um, I don't find it awkward at all. It's like a, a little bit of the old me comes out when I get to talk like this, where I get to indulge and it's my turn, it's me in the limelight.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 8:44 Right.

Chris Williamson 8:45 Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 8:45 Right.

Chris Williamson 8:45 But I genuinely do enjoy creating a platform that allows whoever I'm speaking to to be at their absolute best. Like, a ton of things that I give as advice to other podcasters, stuff, for instance, that the audience will never see, f- like when I'm on a Skype call with someone, I'll nod all the time. Just as they're talking, I'll just keep on nodding-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 9:08 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:08 ... like this. Like that Churchill dog in the back of the car, like just constantly going away, 'cause I want the other person to feel comfortable and confident, like they-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 9:15 You're encouraging.

Chris Williamson 9:16 Yeah. I, I, I hear you. This is what you're saying. Keep on going, mate. Keep on going, mate. That sounds good.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 9:21 Right.

Chris Williamson 9:21 That sounds good. Um, so I love, I love doing that, and that has been a really interesting transformation, and there may be... I think it's perhaps something that young guys get a lot, this sort of male posturing when you're, you know, you break out of your teens into your 20s-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 9:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:35 ... you want to be a, an alpha guy, you want to be attractive, you want to be confident and charismatic. And you can often mistake brashness and over self-sufficiency for that.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 9:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:46 And I think, yeah, by far, whether it's trying to get laid or trying to make mates, like, having curiosity, genuine curiosity in what other people say. It was enough that a bunch of different people at a party who were drunk highlighted, like, "What the fuck are you doing asking questions?"

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:03 So, do you ever encounter people who really don't open up to you? And how do you deal with that?

Chris Williamson 10:09 Being honest, my sample size for how long I've been doing this is probably not that big. Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:15 Right. How long have you been doing this?

Chris Williamson 10:18 18 months, I'd guess, speaking-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:19 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:19 ... like this consistently.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:21 Um, and yeah, I think that was definitely one of the things, and again, any sort of budding, aspiring podcasters out there, if you're not used to asking questions, that's probably the first skill that you need-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:33 ... to learn, that it's your job to just get that curiosity, turn it into, like, a pharmaceutical, nuclear-grade weapon and fire-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:40 ... it at the other person (laughs) as much as possible. Um, yeah, so I, I, I, sometimes people don't want to open up, uh, in person, but you kind of-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:49 ... get that impression if you're not on the same wavelength anyway, if you're not vibrating at the same frequency, you kind of sense that.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 10:56 But, uh, I think it's very hard. I find it hard as a therapist, um, w- when people won't open up to me. It's something I've had-

Chris Williamson 11:04 I bet you do.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 11:04 ... to learn to tolerate.

Chris Williamson 11:04 Is, is that not frustrating?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 11:06 It is. And, and I also find it socially as well, it's something I've had to endure and, and respect, because not everyone is open, and that's okay. I don't need to hit it off and d- connect incredibly deeply with everyone. But th- that's something I've definitely had to learn and be patient about. And I don't know if you find that as well, that sometimes you don't, you don't engage as intensely, you don't a- have a deep rapport with absolutely everyone.

Chris Williamson 11:36 Absolutely, yeah.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 11:39 So, do you ever ask people questions where they just kind of avoid or don't go further, don't take the conversation anywhere, and, and you have to deal with that?

Chris Williamson 11:51 Yeah, sometimes. I think-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 11:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:53 ... my capacity to deal with awkwardness is actually f- fairly low, and that's something I've had to learn to deal with as well.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 11:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:59 That sitting with silence and sitting with awkwardness as a, a podcaster or just a conversationalist-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 12:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:07 ... is something I really didn't like. I think it was born out of a r- a rooted lack of confidence in my own ability, uh-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 12:13 Right.

Chris Williamson 12:13 ... either as sort of socially or as a podcaster, and-... silence to me meant I'm not interesting, or they're not interested in me, or I'm not m- moving this conversation in the right direction, or they're gonna think this sucks, or whatever it might be. And yeah, for a long time, sitting with that silence w- was the most uncomfortable thing. And then-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 12:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:37 ... some episodes that we've done, this guy called Daniel Schmactenberger, who is a ridiculous polymath civilization engineer, and we did this two-hour-long episode where there was 30-second silences in there. And I just felt-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 12:50 Oh.

Chris Williamson 12:50 ... perfectly fine just sitting and letting him think. And he's thinking-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 12:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:54 ... and thinking 'cause that's the pace that he moves at. And that was really beautiful, and people commented on how nice it was to have that silence themselves as listeners.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:01 And I'm like, hang on a second, like there's two people in this conversation, and neither of them felt uncomfortable with it, and you don't even get to choose as the listener when someone starts speaking again, and you felt comfortable with it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:12 So, that really taught me a lesson about how silence is an important element of talking to people too, and it can actually-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:20 Yes.

Chris Williamson 13:20 ... be used as a feature rather than a bug.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:23 Yes. Absolutely. So, do you find that applies in social situations as well?

Chris Williamson 13:30 A little bit more difficult. Um...

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:33 Often because it's not one-on-one, and-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:35 ... in a big group, especially the sorts of circles that I'll sometimes traffic in, there will be, uh, varying degrees of sort of brashness, charisma, outgoing extroversion, and that doesn't, those sorts of people don't tend to allow for a 30-second pause, you know, for some- (laughs) someone to consider-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 13:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:57 ... what the future of civilization looks like or whatever it is. Um, it's rare, rarer, should I say.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:04 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do you find that when you can hold back, you can actually learn a lot more?

Chris Williamson 14:12 I think so. Um, again, talking and not asking questions is on a gradation, and further down from that is asking questions too quickly and not giving the other person time to speak. I'm sure that you, what's it called?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:27 The use of silence or whatever is in therapy that you guys use.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:30 Mm-hmm. Sure. The use of silence.

Chris Williamson 14:33 Yeah. Well, it's just that I know-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:34 ... that sitting and just letting the, what do you call it, the client, patient?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:40 Client.

Chris Williamson 14:41 Client. Okay, yeah. Patient makes it sound-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:42 ... a little bit dodgy, doesn't it? Uh, let the-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:44 Well, some therapists say patient. I say client.

Chris Williamson 14:46 Cool.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 14:47 There's no, there's no perfect term. I don't really love either, actually. Person.

Chris Williamson 14:51 Person. Let the other person just sit and think, and then whatever comes to the forefront of their consciousness is what they say next, without you guessing what they want to say or something.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 15:02 Without rushing things along or crowding. And I think silence sometimes gives space, but it- it's about dosage, because you don't wanna give someone so much space. I- I went to a therapist once who was just horribly withholding with the silence, and- and it made me feel very uncomfortable. So, I think it's about finding what fits, but letting things emerge. And I guess if you're kind of crowding someone conversationally, I know for me, I, when I get too nervous, I go into question mode, where I use questions as a defense. Not in therapy so much, but in social situations where I just start kind of firing off questions and-

Chris Williamson 15:42 (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 15:43 ... and it can be a way of hiding. So, I'm really, really interested in what questions say about ourselves. And as a question asker, I'm now turning it on you. So, I'm doing the same thing. I'm very aware. Um, but I'm owning it. And I feel like we have that in common, that we, that we inquire, but where are we in all of that? What does that say about us, and what's it like to- to be asked questions? It- it's give and take. So, it's- it's interesting just to think about where you are in all of this and- and what emerges from it, and- and how you kind of find your sense of self by constantly turning to others. Like, where- where does your voice come through?

Chris Williamson 16:23 Yeah. Again, I- I honestly think that this last year or so, last 18 months particularly, which has been shaped by this project, you know?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 16:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:31 Again, for all that I say to people to try and find something that they love, to, um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:37 ... look at what they did when they were a kid between the ages of eight and 14 and then consider that that, some sort of evolution of that might be their passion as they get later into life, what is it that you can do for just unencumbered joy. Um, for all that I say that it's this kind of bottom up emergent way that you should try and find passion, this show very much has top down affected the person that I am in what I would-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 17:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:02 ... say is a very positive way. Um, but it's like it's dictated or it's influenced the- the path that I've gone in terms of my own personal development. I walk away from the show, and I take so much of this with me.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 17:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:14 I take so much of the way that I operate, uh, and hopefully that comes across, you know? Like, I- I want to be... I- I think this is one of the beauties of having long form conversations that people listen to regularly, you know? It's three or four hours a week of- of me doing this.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 17:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:27 Uh, although it's not usually me talking so much, and it's very hard to hide you in that. And for a very long time, as the listeners probably will be familiar with, I was living this kind of meta-cognizant, uh, playing a role egoic game, and-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 17:45 Right.

Chris Williamson 17:46 ... it shines a very bright light on you, um, when you have to speak this much. And it- it forces you to really think, like, uh, okay, if I'm gonna do this, if I try and play a persona, I'm gonna be exhausted. So, I just need to be-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 18:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:00 ... rigorous and truthful. Uh, so yeah, it- it's- it's interesting. But again, there's- there's kind of two juxtaposed Christophers here, one of them being the- the one that was probably very selfish up until maybe specifically five years ago, and then, uh, tapering up to like the last sort of two years or so, and then this one, which is very different, at least in terms of conversation.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 18:23 Mm-hmm.Do you ever get really tired of asking questions or being curious? Do you get bored and-

Chris Williamson 18:29 Almost never.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 18:30 ... feel like... Wow.

Chris Williamson 18:32 Almost never.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 18:32 So what, what supplies you with curiosity? How do you, how do you keep that source alive?

Chris Williamson 18:41 I'm not sure. That, I just don't, I don't see any other joy. There is no greater joy to me than linking together two concepts that I didn't previously realize worked.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 18:50 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:50 Like I'll find something out about the way that social media algorithms work or the way that this particular star gravity time dilation happens when it goes into-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 19:03 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:03 ... a neutron star or whatever it might be. Like anything, whenever I learn any of this stuff or a little pithy aphorism about life or s- anything, I- I adore it and it makes me incredibly happy. And I think... I wonder how much of that... So here's something that I was gonna, I was gonna bring up with you obviously, with your insights into psychology, was that how much do you think of the personal development world, the personal growth, self-development movement that we're seeing at the moment is people using that to hide from the per- a person that they don't like deep down? So if you say, "I don't like me as I am now-"

Charlotte Fox-Weber 19:51 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:51 "... but if I continue to grow every day between now and the day that I die, perhaps the person that I turn into might be acceptable and worthy of love," how often-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 19:58 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:58 ... do you think it is that you come across people like that?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 20:01 I... That's a really interesting question. I, I like to think that Carl Rogers was right in saying that it's a paradox. We have to accept who we are in order to make changes. So I think that self-acceptance is often a part of growth, and it's the same conversation in a way, if that makes sense.

Chris Williamson 20:20 Yeah, I get it. I, it's something I've been thinking about so much this year, that I have some friends that-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 20:27 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:27 ... I think their desire for growth comes from a, a really good place. I think it comes from a place of just wanting to be better without s- feelings of insufficiency that's driving it. But I also-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 20:39 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:39 ... think that there is a huge group, perhaps even the majority, maybe not, but perhaps even the majority of people who are tumbling down the personal growth rabbit hole in a desperate attempt to try and find a person who they are going to be proud to look in the mirror and be.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 20:57 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:59 Um, I read this quote the other day about how people who have a, a, a low sense of self-worth can sometimes find, in development, a hope for, a hope for a better future, basically.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 21:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:13 Does that make sense?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 21:14 I, that makes a lot of sense, and I think y- I think that you're onto something really important, which is especially prevalent during the pandemic. There's a huge amount of pressure to self-actualize, and the wellness industry, the well-being industry I... suggests that we have to constantly be updating, improving, progressing, growing, and actually, what about self-acceptance? So I think there is that sense of coming to therapy thinking, "Fix me," and that can hide as, "I want to develop and grow." But actually, sometimes celebrating where you are already is, is a profoundly important thing. And, and I think people can come to therapy and discover that actually what they thought was a flaw turns out to be a strength. So...

Chris Williamson 21:59 What like?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 22:01 Well, I'll give you one example, although you're totally doing your thing and turning this around on me. I see how you did that. But if you, if you can see, I'm wearing a necklace, which is a ram with horns. (laughs) A therapist I went to once said to me, in I think quite an unkind way, "You are like a ram with horns." And I think she meant it as an insult. It was an intervention, and I decided to take it as a compliment, and I began collecting rams with horns, and I-

Chris Williamson 22:32 (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 22:32 I love rams with horns. When I was in Italy recently, I saw rams with horns and I related to them and felt like we were one. Uh, one of the things I took from that therapy was accidental. She didn't mean for me to take it. It's not what I thought I would get from it. But I arrived in therapy thinking, "I need to let go of this aspect of myself." And I left thinking, "Actually, that's part of who I am."

Chris Williamson 22:55 What-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 22:55 "I don't really want to change that. I'm a ram."

Chris Williamson 22:58 What is a ram? What is a ram with horns?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 23:00 It means that I can be quite attached to certain things, and I probably get very assiduous about certain, certain issues and, and struggle to let things go, and a ram with horns, uh, uh, I mean, it can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing. So there are times where I absolutely need to let go and not fixate and not obsess. But there are times where I think I'm very passionate and conscientious and I will go above and beyond for something, and that's part of who I am. So it's a strength and a weakness. But it's not, it's not just one or the other, and I've decided to kind of embrace that aspect of myself. So I think sometimes celebrating our flaws is a massive victory, and, and it can take a lot of work to get there. It, it's a kind of journey for many. I know it's an overused term to say journey, but I didn't always realize that I liked being a ram with horns. And actually when she said it to me, I probably felt initially quite offended and hurt, but no longer.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Well, I mean, a perfect example of that is I think I would have probably been called nosy as a kid.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:05 There you go. So same here. Totally, totally relating to that one.

Chris Williamson 24:10 And what's nosiness? Like, you roll that forward and then you discipline it down. You make it a little bit... You put a bow on it. You make the rough-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:17 ... the rough edges a little bit less rough. I really do think one of the things I'd love everybody to take away is the, um, barbell or the, the two-sided coin paradox that is strength and weakness, uh, that-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:28 ... you know, being nosy-... as a kid, or being a, a gobshite, which would be someone who kind of talks a little bit too much. If you can-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:35 Can I add to the list-

Chris Williamson 24:36 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's make it-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:37 ... of things that are strengths and weaknesses?

Chris Williamson 24:39 Let's make it longer.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:40 Um, okay, so being nosy, definitely one. Sensitive, definitely another for me.

Chris Williamson 24:46 Were you sensitive as a kid?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 24:47 Of course. And most therapists are, I think. Some are insensitive maybe, but yeah, I was told I was sensitive and, and that felt like a weakness and now it's a strength, absolutely. Um, empathy is one. I know it's very trendy now for children to be taught empathy. I, I don't remember thinking that it was an advantage, because I felt things acutely. And I would hear about an upsetting story and it would really get under my skin and stay with me, and I didn't know how to kind of process it. And, and now I've, I've managed to make use of it, because actually caring e- is a really good thing in, in my world. But I, I sometimes cared in a way that felt disproportionate as a child. And ...

Chris Williamson 25:33 Do you cry at, like, uh, romantic Christmas movies and, like, beautiful sort of sad, uh, films and things?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 25:39 I, I felt it all. I still feel a lot, yeah. But understanding that, that strong feelings can actually be a wonderful, life-enhancing thing ha- has taken time for me.

Chris Williamson 25:52 Yeah. There was a, a question asked by an audience member when I went to go and see Jordan Peterson live in Manchester a couple of years ago. Uh, and the question boiled down to the depth of my consciousness causes me to suffer. I'd prefer to be ignorant, like my dog, than have to ... That, that, that, yeah, it's both a blessing and a curse to feel everything so very deeply.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 26:14 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:14 Um, and I, I, I understood the question, and I, I really sort of empathized with the question as well.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 26:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:23 But we don't have that luxury. We don't have that choice. It's like, um, the Allegory of the Cave. Do you know that? Plato's Allegory-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 26:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:30 ... of the Cave?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 26:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:31 Um, so I, I advise anyone who doesn't know what that is to just go on, go on YouTube and learn about it. It's basically taking the red pill, that once you see something, you can't unsee it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 26:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:39 Once you learn something, you can't unlearn it. Um, and that's the beautiful thing about having a conversation, that when someone convinces you of something, it's, it's like, it's literally like a parasite in your brain, but hopefully one that's good. Someone convinces you of something, you can no longer be unconvinced.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 26:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:53 And, um, yes, I think that the depth of experience giving you that richness in life is something that can cause people to have turmoil, right? Like it can hurt.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:07 It hurt, it hurts to feel things that you know other people probably don't even notice.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:15 That way that that person glanced at you, that slight shoulder turn, or the fact that they hugged everybody else and just gave you a, a, a handshake when they left-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:26 ... or whatever it might be, all of these little things. And even just the fact that I notice this stuff, like these are all examples that I've seen, not on me, but in other people in the last month-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:35 Right.

Chris Williamson 27:35 ... because I've been around ... I'm not used to being (laughs) around so many people. I was just like hyper social-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:38 ... for four weeks. And all I'm doing is observing, just looking at stuff. But what's that? That's the nosiness coming through again. That's the curiosity.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:46 That's the-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:47 Hypervigilance, I, I would call it too.

Chris Williamson 27:50 Yeah, perhaps.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 27:51 A bit.

Chris Williamson 27:51 Perhaps. Um, I'm trying to think about some of the other things. So certainly, coming from a working class town in the north of the UK, I, I don't, I don't have the accent, and-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 28:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:02 ... again, at the time, that was a weakness. It was something that made me stand out at school, uh, in a definitely a suboptimal manner. (laughs) Uh, but that has led now to me having an accent that can be understood by Americans, like you, which is useful.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 28:16 Well, so next up on my list for things that felt-

Chris Williamson 28:20 (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 28:21 ... like a weakness that are now strengths, I'm, I'm really loving this list, being an outsider.

Chris Williamson 28:27 Yeah.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 28:27 Feeling like an outsider in my childhood was very uncomfortable, and, and I wanted to fit in. And now I take pride. I, I don't necessarily have to match everyone else. That doesn't mean I have to be kind of provocative and make a point of always being an outsider. It's also great to connect and feel like I belong. But actually accepting difference can, can be a wonderful thing. And I kind of wish I could say that to my younger self. I don't know if you ever feel like-

Chris Williamson 28:55 Oh, absolutely. Like one probably-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 28:56 ... you'd wanna go back, but-

Chris Williamson 28:58 ... probably one of the m- the most important things, if I could send a, you know, like a couple of sentence email-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:03 ... it would be to embrace weirdness.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:07 The fact that your-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:07 Just own it.

Chris Williamson 29:08 ... your weirdness is your competitive advantage. I've said this-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:10 ... a million, a million, million times. Um, and your previous business partner, Mr. de Botton-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:17 ... um, he has this fantastic video, Why We're Fated to Be Lonely-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:20 ... and he says that, "Loneliness is a kind of tax we have to pay to atone for a certain complexity of mind." Uh-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:25 "... given the choice between honesty and acceptability, most of us choose the latter." Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:30 But that very much is your unique route to never being competed against. And that comes to-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:41 ... within business, career. It comes for personally, everything. If you decide-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 29:46 That no one else can ever be you.

Chris Williamson 29:48 No, no one can beat you at being you. Um, and the, the sooner that you can embrace that as not just a nice sort of pithy aphorism that reminds you if you're feeling a little bit cast out that it's okay, mate, like that it, it genuinely is the truth.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:05 As I've embraced my-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:07 ... um, weirdness and the fact that I don't necessarily fit into an archetype, as tons-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:13 ... and tons and tons of people do, that they all feel this and they nerf the edges, they round off the edges of the interesting stuff that they do in life, to try and make themselves fit into the bell curve of what normal is.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:24 Um, but as George McGill, a buddy that I went to Dubai with, said, "If you're trying to be normal, by definition, you're regressing to the mean."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:34 Normal people get normal results. Extraordinary people get extraordinary results. Like-... we all want, somehow everybody wants to both be the most popular, most liked person on the planet and also Elon Musk or Conor McGregor or, you know-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:50 Right.

Chris Williamson 30:50 ... like one of the, one of the, like, Kardashians or something.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:54 And you think you, you don't get it both ways.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 30:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:57 Those people have ridiculous outcomes because they have ridiculous inputs.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 31:02 Right.

Chris Williamson 31:02 And you can choose one, but you can't choose both.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 31:04 Right. So let's go back to you, if we can.

Chris Williamson 31:09 Cool.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 31:11 Um, tell us something disturbing, something surprising. Take a risk. It doesn't have to be the big Trauma with a capital T, maybe trauma with a lowercase t.

Chris Williamson 31:22 Um, so I've certainly sort of realized a lot, i- kind of following on from what we just said there, realized a lot that the sort of insights that I've got by, by being an outsider are-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 31:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:36 ... very liberating and very enjoyable. Um, but at the time, just felt like such a curse. Like, I just didn't fit in, I couldn't... I remember I used to think about how other people dressed or, uh, uh, find bizarre quirks in how groups of people that I wanted to, them to like me, what I thought it was they were doing that was binding them together as a group is like, "Oh, it's because they were all wearing, like, skinny jeans and I was wearing loose-fitting jeans." Or, "It's because they all walked this way to school or I walked that way to school," or whatever it might be. Um, and I think that for a long time, I was just confused by a lack of acceptance.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 32:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:16 Especially as a young kid. And again, without necessarily a brother or a sister or someone who's kind of either always got your back and/or can teach you the common rules of socializing.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 32:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:29 Um, that was, that's really only something kind of like realizing the impact that my childhood had on me is very, very much only something that I've come back to. And-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 32:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:43 ... in a way, it's really, it, I find it fascinating. I really enjoy tracking the line, tracing the route that different elements of me has walked, and everyone that's listening can think the same, like, everything that you are now is the flower that's grown out of a seed of something that was planted when you were much younger. And-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:06 Right.

Chris Williamson 33:06 ... again, another School of Life video is where they talk about bad inner voices and they say all bad inner voices were once a bad outer voice.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:15 Um, and when you hear the way that you criticize yourself for underachieving at X or-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:22 ... not being good enough at Y, or the, the shame that you feel when you make a blunder s- socially, whatever it might be, a lot of those voices, if you listen closely enough, they're spoken in a cadence of someone that you can remember from when you were much younger.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:36 Sure.

Chris Williamson 33:37 Uh-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:37 So for you, let's get specific, let's get personal.

Chris Williamson 33:41 I don't know, being honest, like I... This is why I asked you to be my therapist and you said-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:45 ... that we know each other too well and you won't do it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:47 Um, but being... I, I haven't done this work. There is a-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:51 Yeah. But there's work to be done.

Chris Williamson 33:53 Oh, yeah, there's tons.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 33:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:54 And I find it interesting, like, I genuinely have embraced the opportunity to delve into the, into these sort of deeper areas of myself.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 34:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:02 Um, but I, I, I don't know. Like, I can listen ali- I can listen quietly enough to know that it's a familiar voice, but I don't really know what the amalgamation of everything is.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 34:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:12 And, um, yeah, but that was an interesting insight. You know, I've got a lot to thank y- y- for your previous, uh, job at the School of Life for th- these insights that have sort of rolled forward and allowed me to-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 34:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:25 ... to see this sort of stuff. Um, but yeah, I, I, I don't, I don't think that I know... I can't pick it apart. It's like a very messy sort of soundtrack at the moment, and the texture of my mind when I try and get to that place is-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 34:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:40 ... something that, that requires more work. It's like a glass ceiling and a glass floor that I, I can't really get past just yet.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 34:46 But see, what, what you've done is really brave, actually, 'cause you have said, "I don't know," which is a really honest part of any emotional discovery, that there is that bit of mess and uncertainty and kind of unknowing that's part of learning and growing. So that's, that's a really genuine aspect of this process. And, and of course, this is not therapy, and you're r- I won't be your therapist, but-

Chris Williamson 35:15 Sorry.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 35:15 ... we can have intense, deep conversations, of course, but I think, I think it's really important to not have it all be tidy and resolved, and there can be a sense that emotional epiphanies happen overnight, and it's a creative process. And any creative process r- requires stages and steps and a bit of mess and experimenting.

Chris Williamson 35:38 Given that we're talking about questions at the moment, have you got any of the favorite questions that you like to ask your clients as, like, opening questions that-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 35:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:49 ... people who are listening-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 35:50 I-

Chris Williamson 35:50 ... can ask themselves and maybe to sort of take away from this and, and ruminate on over the next while?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 35:56 Sure. I mean, I don't encourage ruminating, but sure. Um, tell me about a time that you thought you couldn't survive. And tell me about what got you to the other side or if you have gotten to the other side.

Chris Williamson 36:12 That's a cool question.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:14 It's not a question I always ask, but I am asking you.

Chris Williamson 36:18 Uh, I can definitely take one from this year that going into the... I ruptured my Achilles-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:25 ... three and a half months ago, and as someone who sometimes has catastrophic thinking, I just presumed that it would go badly. I didn't think-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:37 ... I had a particularly good constitution.... to be resilient in that sort of a situation.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:44 Mm.

Chris Williamson 36:44 You know, if- if I can get sad and upset when there's ostensibly nothing wrong, when there's really something wrong, just how-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:51 Mm.

Chris Williamson 36:51 ... fucked am I gonna be? Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:53 Mm.

Chris Williamson 36:53 And I think I- I just presumed I was a lot more fragile than I was. Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 36:59 Fascinating.

Chris Williamson 37:00 Yeah, it was interesting. I- I found-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:03 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:03 ... in myself a room, it was like living in a house for your entire life and finding a door to a room that you didn't know existed, and you open it-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:10 ... and it's like a fucking bunker, and it's lead-lined, and there's a shotgun in there, and you can-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:16 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:17 ... take on a lot. It was very endogenous, it came out of somewhere inside-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:21 ... of me. Um, and I think that that's reassuring for people who think that maybe they don't have the resilience, they see people who go through much, much worse things than I do, you know, people who've been like human trafficked or captured by terrorists or, you know, lost both of their legs, who've been terminally ill-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:37 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:37 ... all of these sort of things.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:39 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:39 Um, there is certainly something inside me, and presumably-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:45 ... other people as well, 'cause I heard these stories, right? You hear about th- this person had his arms stuck under a rock in the middle of the desert for 72 hours with no water and he survived, and then did a ultra-marathon back to whatever-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 37:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:58 ... and you see people like David Goggins getting after it, and you think like, "What?" Like, "What on earth is wrong with these people? I'm never gonna be like them." Um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:05 Mm.

Chris Williamson 38:05 ... but kind of when reality comes a-knocking, there is something that answers, and that for me was, um, that was a really interesting insight this year, that's probably one of the things I'm proudest about out of this year. Obviously I'm happy with how this project's gone and other bits and pieces-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:21 ... but certainly my response, the way I responded-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:24 I love that.

Chris Williamson 38:24 ... is one of the things I'm most proud of.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:26 So just to recap, you thought you were less capable, less resilient, less robust.

Chris Williamson 38:34 Precisely.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:34 And actually you've gotten to the other side, and when something really did go wrong you were able to handle it.

Chris Williamson 38:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:41 How encouraging.

Chris Williamson 38:42 Yeah, very much so. (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:43 And bolstering.

Chris Williamson 38:44 But it makes me think, like, what on earth was going on? Why am I, why was there periods during my 20s-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:53 ... where I wouldn't be able to get out of bed for days on end just-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 38:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:57 ... crushed under the weight of existence, when there was nothing wrong?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 39:03 So, sure. I mean, it's- it's really interesting how there are times in life when stepping in a puddle is traumatic, and other times when you have a true disaster and- and you can actually deal with it. And I think sometimes it's harder when things aren't going wrong and- and you're just feeling a kind of despair. So I feel for the person in you where, uh, everything was ostensibly going okay and you were really suffering.

Chris Williamson 39:32 (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 39:32 Just carrying the weight of existence. That's still hard.

Chris Williamson 39:35 Yeah.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 39:35 In some ways harder, because the world couldn't even see what was wrong, and you didn't even have any explanation for what was happening.

Chris Williamson 39:43 Yeah. The- the shame around depression was something that I took, it took me an awfully long time to deal with.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 39:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:49 The... E- e- especially because of the asymmetry we see online now that we are, we all now not only have to live up to other people's ideals but the ideal that we've set for ourselves on our own social-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:03 ... media channel, right? Like you put yourself across as X, Y and Z, and then one day you're fucking the Batman symbol and you think, "Oh, hang on, like I'm supposed to be X, Y or Z here." And you-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:14 ... you have to try and compensate, and yeah, I wa- I was so ashamed, like the fact, "Why am I in bed? Like why can't I get out of bed? Why can't I feel good about life?" I haven't got any problems, have I?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:23 So it got very meta.

Chris Williamson 40:25 Oh yeah, hugely. And obviously those-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:26 ... thought loops kind of make everything worse. Um, and I can rationalize, you know, I've got advice, I've given advice to tons and tons of people of how I try, to try and deal with depressive episodes.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:39 But at the time, it just feels like drowning in thoughts. Like that's-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:44 ... what depression feels like. It feels like-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:46 Sure.

Chris Williamson 40:46 ... you're drowning under the weight of your own consciousness. And it's such a, it's such a heavy situation to exist in-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 40:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:59 ... that it really doesn't surprise me how getting out of bed can feel like it takes a superhuman effort. You know, opening, opening the curtains requires the world's strongest man to give you a hand with it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 41:12 Totally. It's really interesting, in the course of five minutes I feel like you've already changed gears in your attitude towards that time in your life. Because first you said, at first you kind of made light of it, and you said you- you couldn't really cope with life at the time but then you were able to cope with your Achilles. I- I feel like you've now become more compassionate to that, to that inner self.

Chris Williamson 41:38 Yeah, maybe. I think s- there's probably a bit of, uh, defense mechanism that goes in there, that if you can be flippant about a situation-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 41:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:45 ... that once gave you trauma, then you kind of don't remind yourself of that.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 41:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:49 But one of the, one of my favorite episodes that I've done on this show is m- my experience with depression a few years ago now-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 41:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:55 ... um, and that, uh, I continue to get messages all the time from people who listened to that. And-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 42:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:03 ... the insight, I think, I haven't heard many conversations from people where they've dealt with depression and it's been just- just because, you know?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 42:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:18 It's not the grand, needed to go to rehab, overdosed on drugs, cheated on my girlfriend, got kicked out of the house, got found by the police-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 42:28 No situational stressor.

Chris Williamson 42:31 ... like, it's ... Uh, b- but not even that. N- just that it's not, it's not ... there's no glory or grandeur or even-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 42:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:35 ... narrative behind it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 42:36 It, yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:37 And that, that to me is the real-... pain, I think, of depression in the 21st century-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 42:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:45 ... that it can be so comfortable, it can be so unremarkable, unremarkable depression, and you just think, "Wha- why do I feel bad? Why do I feel this way? What is it about me? Why am I not strong enough to be able to get past this? Why am I dealing with these thoughts that I, why am I thinking, I'm just thinking the same thing over and over, and I'm-"

Charlotte Fox-Weber 43:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:09 "... the more that I think it, the more that I spend this time here, the more that I hate myself, the more that I wish that it wasn't the w- the, the, the case." Um, and it's a, uh, a level of depression that doesn't end, it's not got suicidal ideations in it, it's not got that level of grind your in it.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 43:23 It's less eventful. It's just um-

Chris Williamson 43:24 Yeah, it's totally unremarkable. Um...

Charlotte Fox-Weber 43:27 So, what would you say to that time in your life, to that person you were?

Chris Williamson 43:32 It was a long time, you know? Like, it doesn't, I, I still don't-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 43:35 What would you say to him?

Chris Williamson 43:39 ... in the cold light of day as we are now, it's very easy to think with the, the comfort of rationality, right?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 43:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:48 Um, you are so illogical in that situation, so unbelievably detached from what's actually happening. Uh, and sometimes this can be triggered by, like, something so small.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 44:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:02 And, you know, all, all of the practical implications that I have which are a, a, a couple of step process that you need to break down the things that you need to do into steps so small that even you can do them, which is, "I need to get out of bed. Okay, uh, first off, I need to pull the covers off me. I need to put my right foot on the floor-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 44:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:19 "... then my left foot on the floor.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 44:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:20 Then I need to stand up." So you can break things down in that way, and that's a practical way. Um, a warm shower, a walk, call a friend and have a big glass of water, like those things-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 44:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:29 ... will fix so much of the way that you feel.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 44:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:33 Um, but when you can't get out of bed or when you (laughs) feel like you can't get out of bed, um, and you just wanna hide under the covers from reality or existence, uh, that, that feels very, very far away. So I don't-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 44:47 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 44:47 ... I, I, I don't really know, I don't think... The solution is the rationality, and giving yourself a aphoristic, cerebral, psychological solution to this also doesn't work because you're not thinking sufficiently clearly to be able to-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:13 I know.

Chris Williamson 45:14 ... to lean on that. My-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:15 George, again, tweeted something that said, "Uh, telling someone to think their way out of overthinking is like telling someone to snort their way out of a cocaine addiction."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:23 Mm-hmm. That's very smart.

Chris Williamson 45:25 (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:25 I like that. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:28 Um...

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:29 So disputing it really doesn't help, as much as-

Chris Williamson 45:32 Because it feels like that. And that's, that's the thing, I think, as well, that even, even with a drug addiction, people can see from the outside in, you know? Like, they can see that there's, there's some sort of physical dependency going on here. If they took me in a lab and they measured me, they'd know there was something wrong.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:50 Or if I was actually s- skint or I, I would run out of money, or if I was actually broken a bone or, you know, destitute-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 45:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:57 ... whatever it might be, it would feel more legitimate. I think it's the lack of legitimacy, this-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:03 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:03 ... bizarre bourgeois fucking (laughs) um-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:09 You don't feel you have the right to complain.

Chris Williamson 46:11 Yeah, who am I, who am I to feel sad?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:13 And, yeah, that, um, that was something that I think was difficult to swallow as well.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:21 Because even the stories that were given of depression a- are these ones of grandeur.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:26 Uh, I had this conversation with a, a, a buddy, one of the, uh, very early episodes, a guy called Mike Kaju, and, um, I asked him whether or not he thought... He, he was addicted to heroin and cocaine by the age of 14, he was an alcoholic by the age of 16.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:42 And, um, he bounced back to now be the CEO of this hugely successful company, he won the CrossFit Games twice. Um, but I asked him if he hadn't hit rock bottom, whether he would still be there.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 46:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:53 And it's this not, not good, not great, not average, but just sort of ambient dissatisfaction with life-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 47:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:05 ... sort of vacillating between just okay enough to think that life's all right-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 47:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:13 ... down to kind of existential bit of pain and then wobbling back up again.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 47:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:19 Um, that really doesn't give anyone the activation energy to bounce out of the bottom. Um, and I wonder-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 47:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:27 ... I wonder whether sometimes a breakdown can actually be quite useful in that way.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 47:31 Oh, I think so. But I think you're also really onto something with the kind of scolding that goes on internally, the, the telling off for, "You don't have a right to feel this way." Um, it's so, it's so persecutory, it's so self-loathing on top of everything else. And, and I think it, it sounds like anger turned inwards.

Chris Williamson 47:55 It really does. There's a, it's an, it's probably... Very quickly, it becomes the majority of the weight that you're trying to bear.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 48:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:06 I think the self-referential, the narrative ab- about-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 48:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:09 ... the narrative.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 48:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:11 Um, because the first thing only exists, whatever it is that kicks off the bad mood, that, that first thing only ever exists for just, you know, a fleeting conversation-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 48:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:21 ... meeting, day, concern, whatever it might be.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 48:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:25 Um, and then after that, it's the thoughts about thoughts that cause the problem.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 48:28 And the feelings about feelings. I, I often see this in therapy, you have the primary emotions, which, which just happen for various reasons, and they're fine, whatever they are. But it's often the secondary emotions that are so tricky, so-... I, feeling angry at yourself for feeling sad, and kind of coming in with the judgment. So it- it's often looking at the- the secondary emotions that can be really helpful for then just accepting the primary emotions, if that makes sense. If that makes sense at all.

Chris Williamson 49:00 So you said think about a time when you thought you couldn't survive, uh-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:05 ... and then think about how you did. What's another one?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:06 Mm. Another what? Another question.

Chris Williamson 49:09 That people can not ruminate on, that people can enjoyably think about.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:15 (laughs) What would you say to the most fragile part of yourself?

Chris Williamson 49:22 Oh, that's a good one. I think I take things very seriously. I take life very seriously.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:32 It's a function of someone who thinks a lot, because small incidents get magnified up to take up more room than they deserve.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:44 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:44 Um, I've certainly noticed this, and other people who spend a lot of time in solitude, in fact, probably everybody throughout 2020 will notice-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:54 Hm.

Chris Williamson 49:54 ... that small incidents, whether good or bad, will have probably had a disproportionate effect on them-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 49:59 Totally.

Chris Williamson 49:59 ... because they've had the time to ruminate, right?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:01 Totally, totally. That's why I, when you said ruminate, it, I had to come in.

Chris Williamson 50:06 Reflect, reflect.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:07 Yeah, b- uh, because ruminating is just so huge right now, um, and- and we're in the kind of Zoom gloom, and we don't have the normal comradery and incidental banter that helps diffuse things, and we feel paranoid. We get a weird email, we get a weird text, and then it just grabs hold-

Chris Williamson 50:24 Yeah.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:24 ... and takes up residence.

Chris Williamson 50:26 That-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:26 And it's really powerful.

Chris Williamson 50:27 That power of diffusory humor is-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:30 Mm.

Chris Williamson 50:31 ... something that I've almost totally forgotten about, um, which sounds stupid, but especially this year, the number of times where something- something's happened, and you can just laugh it off.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:40 Like l- I was talking to a SAS operative a couple of weeks ago-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:45 Mm.

Chris Williamson 50:45 ... and he was saying that the use of very dark humor in the Special Forces is one of the ways that they deal with bad situations.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 50:53 That makes total sense.

Chris Williamson 50:54 He's- he's been next to guys who've been taking fire, and one of them's been shot in the arm, and he'll start laughing, and everyone'll start laughing. Uh, and you think, I mean, I- I-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 51:04 Gallow humor.

Chris Williamson 51:06 Yeah.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 51:06 Makes sense.

Chris Williamson 51:07 Yeah, very much so.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 51:08 So, next question, what would you say to your 102-year-old self? What- what has worked in your life? Wha- what has success meant to you?

Chris Williamson 51:25 That's still something that I think is, I'm working out. I- I- I think that when you do a ton of self-work, which I've done over the last few years, and hopefully, as more people listen to this show, they kinda get dragged through that world as well.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 51:45 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:47 Um, I would find it difficult to work out a trajectory for me, 'cause I think I'm still at quite an inflection point. Um, I get really jealous. That's one thing that I do get, uh, i- interestingly jealous about is, whenever I meet people that have very concrete senses of where they want to be longer term. Um, I was talking to this guy while I was in Dubai who said, "Do you know what it is, man?" Like, he's an architect, he's doing all of these different things, making a ton of money, like, very successful, young guy as well.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:14 Mm.

Chris Williamson 52:15 And he was like, "Do you know what it is, man? Like, I'm loving what I'm doing at the moment, but I just can't wait to own a bar on a beach with my wife and my couple of kids in somewhere hot."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:21 Totally clear plan.

Chris Williamson 52:23 And I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:25 Mm.

Chris Williamson 52:26 Like, why, how, how are you... I was like, that, and I had to call it out. I was like, "Dude, that's a, that's an incredibly precise, well-defined plan." And I didn't think that he was postulating or I didn't think that this was him putting on a facade. Like, he just said it like it was a fact.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:41 Like, drop the apple, it falls to the floor.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:44 And I was like, "Holy fucking shit. I'm so jealous of that."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:48 Like, I- I've never been, I've never been certain about sort of long-term what that is, um ...

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:55 So lots of question marks.

Chris Williamson 52:57 Yeah, for sure.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 52:57 Which is- which is beautiful and great. For my 102-year-old self, there are lots of question marks. There are some qualities that matter, uh, for a good, rich life. But it- it's not too specific. I think it's good to keep these things loose, and- and sp- allow space as well, space for surprise, discovery, growth.

Chris Williamson 53:18 I think you're right.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 53:19 Uh, you used a word that brings us to our next question, jealousy. When was the last time you felt incredibly jealous?

Chris Williamson 53:30 That certainly comes to mind, that incident that I said there with someone who has this- this super sort of tight trajectory. I mean, I- I think everybody feels envy on an almost second-by-second basis-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 53:40 Hm.

Chris Williamson 53:40 ... when they look at social media, right? Like, I've come back to the UK now, and all of my buddies that I was out there with are still out in Dubai, and I think, "Oh, like, it's so nice and warm out there." But this is something I've certainly realized, that the grass is always greener for us-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 53:55 Hm.

Chris Williamson 53:55 ... as humans, and this stems from evolutionary psychology that humans aren't built to be happy. They're built to be effective.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:02 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:02 We're literally wired to be, to find life unsatisfactory, because if the first time-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:07 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:07 ... that you had sex, you'd never have sex again, if the first time that you ate, you'd never hunt food again.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:12 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:12 You need to eat the deer, and it just not actually be quite as nice as you thought.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:17 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:17 You need to have sex, and it just kind of make you feel a little bit less fulfilled than you thought it was going to be.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:22 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:22 There's this- this quote, I can't remember who the philosopher is, and he says, um, "After copulation, the devil's laughter can be heard." And there's a- a- a concept, there's a- a medical diagnosis for men (laughs) that get brief, acute existential crises after they've come.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:40 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:40 Uh, and to the men who are suffering with that (laughs) that are listening, like, it's not just you. Um, but it's just really hilarious way that our genes influence our emotions because it's adaptive.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:52 Hm.

Chris Williamson 54:53 ... it means that we're more likely to survive and reproduce, which is really all that we're here for.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 54:57 Mm. Mm.

Chris Williamson 54:57 Um, so yes, I think that jealousy pops up fairly consistently for me when I see things.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:05 Mm.

Chris Williamson 55:05 And a- another part of it, I think, is... stems from an insecurity around not being all that I could be-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:13 Mm.

Chris Williamson 55:14 ... that you think. It's almost a- a jealousy for an imagined world in which I was fulfilling my potential.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:19 So you're- you're self-envious.

Chris Williamson 55:22 Yeah, very much so.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:23 Mm.

Chris Williamson 55:23 I think I'd like, "Look at the world I could have-"

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:26 "... if only I wasn't spending as much time on my phone, not getting up until 7:00."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 55:31 "I could be getting up at 6:00, or I could be going to bed at whatever."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:34 You're m-

Chris Williamson 55:34 "I should be reading rather than watching TV, or I should be..."

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:37 You're- you're competing with your ego ideal.

Chris Williamson 55:40 Precisely.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:41 Mm. That's a really interesting and insidious competition that happens all the time-

Chris Williamson 55:46 (laughs)

Charlotte Fox-Weber 55:48 ... that we don't talk about enough, where you are constantly looking at the kind of activated, potentiated you, and falling short. And- and it plays out all the time, I think, in life. I don't mean you specifically. I just mean human beings.

Chris Williamson 56:03 Yeah, it does.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 56:04 So thank you for offering- offering that up. You've been incredibly open today, and you have actually spoken quite bravely and vulnerably.

Chris Williamson 56:14 Thank you. Can we try and recap the questions for people f- so that they can remember what we went through?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 56:19 Yeah, absolutely. So question one, can we list some traits that felt like flaws in our childhoods, but actually turn out to be strengths? So identify those weaknesses and turn them around into sources of success. Second question, can you think of a time in your life that you didn't think you could survive that felt traumatic and maybe unbearable, and what helped you get to the other side? Third question, what would you say to the most fragile part of yourself? Fourth question, what would you say to your 102-year-old self? Fifth question, can you describe a time when you felt incredibly jealous?

Chris Williamson 57:17 That's cool.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 57:19 Okay. Thank you so much for being so open and brave and- and walking the walk.

Chris Williamson 57:25 Well, thank you for being here. I'm glad that you bullied me into doing this-

Charlotte Fox-Weber 57:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:29 ... and completely blindfolded, led me into the room, and then decided to do this. Um, do we know when you're going to complete writing your book?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 57:39 Oh, I'm- I'm handing it in in- in May.

Chris Williamson 57:43 Okay.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 57:44 So, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:44 And how long is that? Is that like six months from now until publish?

Charlotte Fox-Weber 57:47 Um, I, it'll be published early 2022.

Chris Williamson 57:51 Cool. Well, depending on- depending on how brave you manage to get me over the next year, we may be back on to do a similar episode, and then you will absolutely be back on to talk about that. I really appreciate your friendship. I- I absolutely love the fact that we met each other a year ago, and I'm very, very glad that, uh, you- you pushed me into doing this today.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 58:09 Same here. It's such a pleasure. I- I did want to tell you what m- led me to want to ask you all of these questions as well-

Chris Williamson 58:16 Okay.

Charlotte Fox-Weber 58:16 ... which was an Aesop fable. I could have said this at the beginning. Um, it's- it's one of my favorite fables, and I was actually reading it to my six-year-old son the other night. And there's a mother crab who is lecturing her baby crab on the importance of walking straight. And the baby crab says, "But Mom, you're walking sideways." And I think it's a really beautiful, powerful story. I think of it as a therapist all the time of kind of doing as we say, practicing what we preach. So it just made me think, you're constantly asking questions. You're very good at digging deep. Um, I've been on the receiving end of that. You- you bring out interesting, quirky, idiosyncratic encounters all the time. And what is the life for you of- of being that question asker? Um, I wanted to just have a sense of your interior world. So thank you for allowing us to see it.

Chris Williamson 59:15 Thank you.

Narrator 59:19 (instrumental music)