Sargon Of Akkad | Why Are We Facing A Crisis In 2020?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 0:00 It's totally valid to feel like we're in sort of Fall of the Republic territory here, because we are. I mean, this is, uh, you know, probably something like crisis of the third century if we're comparing Western civilization to Rome. Uh, so we've pro- we've- I think we probably do have a couple hundred years left to go. Uh, but I think it's evident that whatever we've been doing to bring us to this point is leading us on a path to destruction. (wind blows)

Chris Williamson 0:30 Are you the most demonetized man on the internet?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 0:34 Um, (laughs) possibly. Uh, well, I mean-

Chris Williamson 0:38 (laughs)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 0:38 ... a lot, a lot of people have also been demonetized, so, uh, y- not including The Federalist, though, apparently.

Chris Williamson 0:45 (laughs)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 0:45 They just had to turn off their comments section at Google's behest, otherwise they would've been. But yeah, Zero Hedge, Steven Crowder, myself, and a bunch of other people, Count Dankula, you know, we've- we all get demonetized because we say things that are not very politically correct, I suppose.

Chris Williamson 1:01 It's happened twice-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:01 But-

Chris Williamson 1:01 ... to you now though, right?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03 It has. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03 So what- what was the-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:04 Three times, actually. Actually, four times now I think about it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:08 (laughs) You are- dude, that's the title. That title is yours to take.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:10 I know. (laughs) It's happened a lot. Um, it's- it's just because I talk about things that the progressives also talk about, but I don't talk about them in a progressive way. And so, I'm a bad person.

Chris Williamson 1:24 So what's the current make up of your YouTube-iverse at the moment?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:28 Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:28 'Cause you've got multiple channels, right?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:30 Yeah, the only one I really use at the moment is a Cad Daily, 'cause I'm currently setting up a website, um, to do the same sort of things through. Um, and I'll start a podcast and other things after I've done that, so I'm just using this one at the moment.

Chris Williamson 1:43 Got you. And then you've still got the- like, the old archived-y one, the grandfathered one?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:49 Yeah, yeah, but, um, YouTube have, uh, quarantined it in some way. So w- and- and I tested this the other day. On my new channel, uh, I've got 300,000 subscribers, and if I put up a video, within the first, like, 18 hours, I'll have a million impressions and something like 200,000 views. Um, and on my old channel, I put it up, and in the first 18 hours, I had about 100,000 impressions. And- and that's got nine hund- that's got three times the subscriber base as my new channel, and yet it'll get something like, you know, a tenth of the views. And it's crazy, 'cause I'm- I'm- my content isn't, I don't think, markedly different. My audience still seems to be there. So it seems very much that the channel itself has been throttled in some way. So I guess I just have to leave it, you know?

Chris Williamson 2:35 I love the idea of a quarantine channel.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 2:37 Yeah, well, it happened to Tommy Robinson as well. And it's- it's happened to a few. Um, but these days, they're just outright taking them down. Uh, there- there have been, um, people who, uh- (coughs) excuse me, um, people who are more- much more extreme than me, who, uh, have been slowly the- the noose has been tightening, and now we've come to conservative channels because all of the alt-right or anything like that, they're all gone now. Uh, they're all on different platforms. So the noose is just growing tighter, and, uh, you can see that people get targeted before they get removed as well. Like Katie Hopkins and Milo had their blue check marks removed from their- verification check marks on Twitter removed, which is weird because it just kind of shows that it's not about verification. It's about privilege, then, isn't it? I mean, Milo and Katie didn't stop being Milo and Katie.

Chris Williamson 3:31 (laughs)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 3:31 And no one thought that they did. You know, and since they- they were public figures of note, you would think that it would be important for the public to easily identify them, but apparently not. That's-

Chris Williamson 3:40 It was a warning shot across the bow, then?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 3:43 Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, it is. And I th- I think, I mean, Facebook actually has an active list of, uh- I can't remember exactly what they call the list, but essentially it just translates to wrong thinkers. Uh, I'm actually on it, and a lot of other people were on it who have been removed. I don't know how I still have a Facebook presence. But I mean, I don't say anything that's- that's wrong, you know, or crazy or even bigoted or anything like that, you know. I don't even make jokes anymore, um, because you can't have any fun on the internet anymore apparently.

Chris Williamson 4:09 But increasingly, I've noticed that your stuff appears to be more and more you kind of treading... It sounds a little bit sometimes like you are treading on ice.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 4:17 Well, we are. There's very much a Sword of Damocles hanging above our heads, and it's fallen a few times and cut me already. So, uh... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:24 (laughs) You've got the scars to prove it, yeah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 4:25 Yeah, (laughs) exactly. I've got the scars to prove it. That's right. Um, so yeah, I, uh, I just have to- have to be... The- the thing that's really interesting is the way this all worked out, 'cause I- I can't help but notice that you're in your house in your bedroom-

Chris Williamson 4:41 Mm-hmm.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 4:41 ... uh, doing this. And I began in very much the same way. I just had a one bedroom flat, and I was just doing it in my living room, you know, because at- at the time, I was unemployed, so I just went, "Well, I may as well." And it gr- it took off. Um, I now have a converted garage as my office. But, uh, you know, I started in very much the same position, and it's interesting how we're being held to the same standards as something like CNN or Fox News, you know, giant organizations with hundreds of employees. And we're being held to the same standards, which really makes you wonder why they need all of that to do their jobs, doesn't it? You know, if it's so easy that just c- you know, guys in- in their homes can do as effective a job, then maybe, uh- maybe there's a- there's a veil that they're hiding behind.

Chris Williamson 5:27 This was a point that Eric Weinstein made on Joe Rogan's podcast better than I've heard anyone make it, and what he said was that people refer to the mainstream media now.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 5:37 Mm.

Chris Williamson 5:37 That's like the- the CNN, the BBCs-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 5:39 Yep.

Chris Williamson 5:39 ... so on and so forth. But it's like-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 5:41 Corporate media.

Chris Williamson 5:42 ... hang on a second. If this podcast, me and you, Joe Rogan, or me and you, if this gets 100 million views, which would be great, uh, but if this gets 100 million views, and CNN puts a video up, and it gets 500,000 views, who's mainstream media now? Now, you can call them traditional media.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 6:00 Mm.

Chris Williamson 6:00 Traditional media is a nice word. But they don't want that because mainstream's a signal. Mainstream is we are the arbiters of truth, we are the ones-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 6:08 It's-... it, it, it is, it, what- what- what we mean when we say mainstream isn't really the view counts and it hasn't been for a while, and that's why we're being treated as competitors to them. Uh, but what they're talking about is approved, is the approved media, the approved gateways, the-

Chris Williamson 6:24 The ratified ones.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 6:26 Yeah, exactly. The- the people ... And the thing is, because it is all a system that interlocks, you can- (coughs) sorry. You can understand why they would want such a thing because it puts them all essentially on the same team when it comes to certain issues. Uh, the, for example, the BBC, they brag about how everyone still comes to the BBC when they want to get, you know, the- the coronavirus information. It's like, okay, that's true, but you are also a privileged source because of your access. The politicians make the platforms as much as the platforms make the politicians. Uh, if politicians wanted, they could just refuse to do interviews with any of the media and just do interviews on their own YouTube channels using a smartphone or something. You know, they could say, "Look, here's the questions I want to answer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thanks very much." And then the media would have to extract from that. And then they would just be (laughs) just like anyone else. But it's access that they have, and this, it, this, it's a two-way street. They, there are, there, it's, from, (laughs) from my time dealing with all of this, and I've- I've met a few, uh, very interesting people in my time, it's very much about who you know 'cause there's no shortage of people, there's a shortage of trust. And so it's about making, uh, creating, like, webs of trust between people. And, uh, and it's very ... Uh, and the thing is, I don't see how it could operate any other way. That's the problem, uh, because you've got too many people who are pulling at you, I would say. So I think it's probably inevitable it's gonna work that way. But yeah, so e- essentially, when you're someone like me and you come from it from the complete outside, you know, I didn't- I didn't have any of this, um, I can see why they hate us, you know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:05 (laughs)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 8:05 I can (laughs) really see-

Chris Williamson 8:06 Some guy in his garage.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 8:07 ... why they hate. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:07 Some guy in his garage, yeah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 8:09 (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, 'cause we can say things that they can't say. We can challenge narratives they don't dare challenge. Um, and they'll punish us for it. That's what they're doing.

Chris Williamson 8:21 I think the long-term move of Joe Rogan to Spotify, I had a chat with, uh, guy from Podcast Notes earlier on who understands the infrastructure very cleverly.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 8:29 Oh, yeah?

Chris Williamson 8:29 And, um, he thinks that the long-term goal for Spotify with podcasting will be something similar to what Netflix has done, that if you signal to all of the big players, get the big players on board, play count goes up, easier views are available on there, they can monetize more highly. Then once they get a critical mass of podcasters across, that's where you need to go to put your podcast on to get the plays. Then once you're there, they can start to squeeze down the earning potential. Now, I hope that it's not as Orwellian as that, and I also think the one, um, the final bastion, like, the last stand that you have as a content creator is you giving your word that you agree with the particular advert. So the difference in-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:10 ... conversions on a dynamic versus a host read is huge. It's like 4X basically. So Joe Rogan's saying, "I'll, I use this-"

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:18 "I endorse," yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:19 "... CBD," blah-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:21 ... uh, versus it being, "Have you got your new copy of Learning and Housewife Magazine from WHSmith's?"

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:27 "Get your first ..." You know, it just doesn't convert as well. So I think that's-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:30 Yep.

Chris Williamson 9:30 ... maybe the chink in the armor, but that could be long term, you know?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:34 Yeah, I mean, oh, this, honestly, this is part of the reason why I'm setting up my own site, you know, so I don't have to be reliant on any one host or anything like that. Um, but it's-

Chris Williamson 9:43 As long as you don't turn into Brian Rose from London Real. That would make me-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:48 I don't know who that is, sorry.

Chris Williamson 9:49 Good. That is, that is the n- the most blissful situation that you could hope to be in, my friend.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 9:55 (laughs) I'll- I'll try and keep it that way. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:56 Y- yeah, that would be great. Okay, so meat of it, how would you describe 2020 to someone that had been in a coma since Christmas?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 10:07 Um, well, I mean, it- it's not really very different to what I've been saying this whole time. It's just that here is all come to fruition. I mean, it's- it's really weird listening to, um, mainstream voices basically sound like my 2017 videos, and it's really interesting that essentially everything I was saying, th- this is not just, um, what- what we are seeing is not just people complaining about police brutality, right? This is fundamentally a- a communist revolution that has been brewing in academia, teaching a generation to think that capitalism and the West is evil, and this gives them moral license to tear it all down. I mean, a statue of George Washington was torn down in Portland the other day, uh, 'cause apparently he was a, a slave-owning racist. And it's like, well, I mean, uh, you know, the United States is gonna be tainted by this original sin that it can never overcome, ex- and obviously we are as well. And so this- this just means that these people have an emotional, um, sort of disposition against the thing that they're attacking. Like, they- they, I don't think they'll ever be able to become patriotic again because they've been emotionally conditioned to hate that thing, you know? And like, it, they, the demands they're going to make are also going to be insane, which they are. Uh, like demanding (laughs) get rid of the police and things like this. And you'll see, hear people say, "Oh no, we just want to, you know, police reform." Bullshit. You know, the- the activists, the radicals, the people who are actually driving this are quite open. They want to get rid of the police. And that would be, I mean, there- there have been examples of police going on strike and it within hours devolves into an anarchic situation. And we can see from the CHAZ or the CHOP as they're calling it now, uh, that this isn't exactly a productive way of life, is it? You know, we have law and order and justice, uh, you know, judiciary and a government for a reason. Uh, you know, as- as evil as they can be at times, we still do need them in general, you know? So, um...... basically, we have to understand that this is a communist revolution that we are watching, which is why they do all the same things as previous communist revolutions, like setting up a commune, you know, uh, tearing down the established order, the statues of the established order. And they're just very open about saying they want to get rid of capitalism. Like, Black Lives Matter did a fundraiser in the UK that's probably earned over a million pounds now. It was 750 when I last looked at it. And on the, on the first line, it's like, "We're here to demantle ca- dismantle capitalism, imperialism, white supremacy, hetero patriarchy," and stuff like that. And people looking at Nigel Farage, and Farage is, is finally saying, "Well, look, these people are actually communists who are here to take over capitalism." Uh, which I was saying. (laughs) And everyone's like, "Well, you can't prove him wrong, can you?" You know, it's in the first line.

Chris Williamson 13:08 None of that stuff, none of that stuff sounds to me like the first, the best way to progress black people in this world.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 13:15 (laughs) It's not the best way to do anything. It's, that's the problem. The, the, the problem with communism is it's a religion masquerading as an economic system. Like, nobody would want... No- nobody would question what side is more productive. Like, when the Soviet Union fell, they, Americans sent economists over there to do an analysis, and they basically found that they were earning about half as much as they could be, just given what they had. It's just the, the means of distribution being centralized and top-down, demolish any kind of incentive. Like when you take away the security of the protection of your own private property, you've got no reason to get up every day and start building something. You know, why would you, if it's just gonna be taken away from you? And so it's very difficult to motivate people. Um, and it's obvious that this is the case, but it's not about that. What it's about is establishing something that they can feel is perfect and moral, because it's all predicated on morality. Like, it, like they'll say things like, "Capitalism will never end inequality." Well, no, that's true, but inequality is such a fundamental part of diversity that why would it even be desirable to do that? If we were all equal, we'd have to be all the same and therefore there's no diversity. Like, there's natural difference. There's always going to be people at different heights. And if you want everyone to be the same, then your only option is the lowest common denominator, because you can't raise up people who aren't gonna be raised, and you'll have to pull down people who otherwise wouldn't stay at the bottom rung. Um, but yeah, so essentially, we have to deal with it in these terms. It's, it's a moral crusade that the communists are on, and they literally don't think there's anything moral about our system, which they've pathologized as whiteness.

Chris Williamson 15:00 Even if it's not necessarily white. It's, there's a number-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 15:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:03 ... of black people that can be on that other side of the fence, it's if you don't agree with a particular ideology. So-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 15:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:08 ... how, how has this year fitted together? How do you think that coronavirus contributed to this, or Trump being impeached, or the impending general election, the, uh, American presidential election? Have you got some sort of conception of how that fits together? Does it even all fit together?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 15:24 Well, I think the, the coronavirus, um, I, I don't know. You get people saying, "Oh, this probably accelerated things." Well, maybe. I, I, I, you know, I honestly, I don't think anyone can really be sure of that. So I'm not gonna suggest that's an, uh, causal factor, especially as I don't think it needs to have been in play to be a causal factor. Um, it could just be that it set the stage, but I th- but the tinder... You know, you know, like but the tinder was already there, you know, it was already ready for the match to be flicked into it. Maybe it just packed it in more tightly so the explosion was bigger or something. But like the... What, what we've been seeing is the results of a consistent pattern of activism from a consistent set of beliefs that have recognizable public figures that are, as adherents and thought leaders. Uh, Robin DiAngelo is the person who's like trending in these spheres at the moment. Her book, White Fragility, was a number one. So it's... And it's worth reading, because it's unapologetic. I mean, I made, I was reading it earlier, I made some notes. Hang on, let me just read you a quick line or something from it, because it's just crazy. Um, the, the (laughs) the, the whole point, um, is she thinks she's saying to white people what people of color can't tell us, and she views white culture as being like... And she just says white because it's in the American context, but she's talking about the sort of Anglo-Saxon, Protestant European culture that America was founded on because it was the English colonies. Um, she views that as a kind of ethnic attack on non-white people. That's what whiteness is and that's what white supremacy is. The-

Chris Williamson 17:08 Just by existing?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 17:10 Ju- not, not just by existing. Uh, but yes, it is just by existing. But the, it's in the way that it is different to these other cultures. It's, uh, individualistic and meritocratic, for example. These are the two big pillars that she uses about whiteness. Um, which, yeah, it would be. You would expect that. It's, it comes from England, which was an individualistic society, and it's meritocratic because it's a Protestant society. It's very geared around personal hard work. Uh, there's, there's been a, like, a, a moral tradition in England, you know. You, you, and it infects every part of the culture. So like, you know, when you're poor, you are ashamed of being poor because the implication in the English moral system is that you've been lazy, right? Is that you are a free man, you know. The, this is, this was the point of being a free man, is that you had control of your life. And if you're poor, that means you're not working very hard, right? That's... I'm not saying it's the case, it's just the moral implication of the thing. Um, and so that's why there's shame attached to being poor in, in English cultures. Um, but the, the whole structure, the, uh, the individualistic meritocratic, that is a form of racism in and of itself. That's the racist thing, and that's what white Europeans do in America, and therefore-... whiteness, which is the desire for an individualistic meritocratic culture, needs to be destroyed. And what she's doing is trying to create a kind of white identity that is effectively laden with the presumably Catholic guilt that Ms. DiAngelo has, held over from her, uh, her parents, and load this identity onto people saying, "Look, whiteness is a form of oppression. It is inherently racist. You need to, you know, understand that you're someone who perpetuates it by having standards, by wanting to be treated like an individual." To be, you know, to be concerned about merit, to be concerned about skill, in the things that are going on, rather than arbitrary and i- and expressly identity politics categories. She- she's just open in saying, "No, I'm arguing from identity politics for white people." So in many ways she's actually very similar to Richard Spencer, 'cause that was exactly his message.

Chris Williamson 19:20 (exhales) I- I-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 19:22 Do you want to become a Nazi? That's your option. DiAngelo is offering it, and I'm saying no to that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 19:27 (laughs)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 19:27 No. No way. I'm not becoming a white identitarian, even if it comes laden with guilt and I have to prostrate myself. I mean, this is why, this is why you're seeing, you know, um, the CEO of Chick-fil-A shining a Black guy's shoes on stage. So, oh yeah, brilliant, shoe shining, forced racial shoe shining. That's the path to racial harmony, isn't it? You know, I mean that's the... surely the thing you're saying that was done wrong in the past? And yet they're like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna sh-" No, we're not shining each other's shoes, okay? We're not doing that. That's totally disrespectful, which is what you were objecting to, (laughs) you know? And so we're not gonna do it and somehow make recomp- recompense or reparations out of this.

Chris Williamson 20:06 So th-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 20:06 Like, this... humiliating.

Chris Williamson 20:08 The thing which has sort of struck me the most has been how performative some of the communication has been-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 20:14 Yes.

Chris Williamson 20:14 ... from everybody.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 20:15 Yes.

Chris Williamson 20:16 And that, that no matter what your goal is, no matter what your viewpoint is, communication should be honest, not performative.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 20:24 Yes.

Chris Williamson 20:24 Because as soon as you start to do that, you can't tell who the, the, where the truth's coming from, who actually cares, who doesn't care. And all the things that we need to talk about most are precisely the things that we can't talk about.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 20:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:39 And until we are allowed to have a nuanced conversation, the- w- w- how do you even move forward?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 20:47 I, I think y- you make a really interesting point about performative, uh, conversations. And I, I totally agree with you. I think a lot of them, especially from the corporations, uh, for example, Discord today published a thing saying, "Oh, we're gonna do our part against the fight against whiteness. Um, and we're gonna start policing your chats and stuff. So if there's anything we consider to be problematic, we're coming after it, we're gonna get it." Um, and that's really interesting, isn't it? 'Cause it, uh, like, what does that do? You know, that doesn't make less racist. It does seem entirely performative. And like you're saying, it, it, it f- it feels hollow because communication is usually not done, uh, (laughs) essentially from compulsion, you know? Like, it, it seems that these people are not speaking from a real and true conviction. It seems that they're watching everyone else thinking, "Jesus Christ, we better do something or we're gonna get fucking pow." Uh, "So here we go." And so y- you've got... 'cause communication, when a, when two people are talking, there's loads of different factors that go into the tone and the, the, the message. You've got the sense, you've got the tone, you've got the actual words spoken, the logical structure, the semantic construction of the sentence. There's a lot that goes into us communicating. And yet when these people come out and give their kind of, "Oh, we, we are for diversity. Diversity is our strength." It sounds very hollow and very forced. There's, you know, there's, there's no human connection to it. That's why it feels like corporate speak, what you're hearing.

Chris Williamson 22:18 Well, so much of it's like hostage, gun-to-the-head stuff.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 22:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:22 Which, to me, like... I don't know. If I was... I was gonna say, if I was the head of Black Lives Matter, but th- they don't, th- there isn't a, there isn't a single figurehead. There is, they're so distributed that you can't, you can't deal with someone, which I, I'd love to get your thoughts on-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 22:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:35 ... in a second. But like, if I was someone who genuinely cared about Black Lives Matter, and I got a guy who works for me who's actually a really cool guy from Canada who said, "I don't like the way that stuff's being done over here. I, I've proposed to my university that I'm going to kind of take on, uh, try and move this movement forward." And I was like, "Man," like, you know, "good look to you. It's gonna be a-"

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 22:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:54 "... it's gonna be a challenge, but good look to you." But like, if I was watching that, I wouldn't think, "Great, we've, we've got another ally." I'd think, "Hang on a second, I don't trust that person."

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 23:08 Um... (laughs) Yeah. I... Th- there's a, there's a fundamental disconnect in the way that the world views are being approached. And this is, like if, if anyone considers themselves a, essentially a conservative, uh, y- this is the thing that you really have to bear in mind. Um, the, the intersectional left, which are the, the people who... that, that's a, an umbrella term that will broadly describe Black Lives Matter, feminism, Antifa, you know, the other communists you see on TV, um, and people who are parroting the same talking points in the same way as them. Uh, they have a view of a human being that's just very different to your own. Uh, most... uh, I, I, I'm gonna get a little bit esoteric here, but like, most people, uh, have a kind of unitary view of a human being. The human being is, you know, you are your body, you have certain properties that are created by your body, which is your strength, how high you are, how tall you, how far can you jump. And it also includes your brain. And people understand that the brain's a biological organ, and, and that's the source of your consciousness, your will, right? And so most people will understand that there is a biological connection between what you think and what you are. And you'll s- you'll notice in like your moods, you know? You, you see people when they take, uh, when they transition and they start taking hormones, they, they speak about their dispositions, the way they feel becomes different. And that's totally normal because the brain is a biological, uh, piece of, uh, uh, you know, part of an organism, and it's affected by reality. And so most people don't think that the will has...... like this, this sacred sovereignty and the, the will is being constrained by the body, most people just kind of ... And without, you know, without articulating it like this, but that's the assumptions that they'll make, is that, you know, you, you've ... You're, you're all a part of a biological organism. But if you look at left-wing philosophy at the moment, it's ... Oh, I've got this the wrong way round, but anyway. Um, the, the ... If you look at left-wing philosophy at the moment, they, they take a totally different approach. Like what, what is it for a, a regular person to identify a woman? They'll say an adult human female, right? But that's a transphobic definition, because that means that it can't simply be that a person identifies as a woman to be a woman. And that's a very, very interesting dichotomy because adult human female is very much based in biology. It's very much based in, in the, the presence of a person, you know. It's an objective category. I can look and see that you're an adult, I can see you're a human, I can see you're a female. Or I could check if ... Maybe. Um, but I, I can objectively determine that. However, what you choose to be is only in your head and it grants licence to the idea that the thoughts, the consciousness, are somehow the supreme sovereign over everything. That's the most important thing. Um, and I don't ... And, and I, I realise that, that this is a very esoteric way of looking at it, but what that does is, is it makes it transcendental. It means it's not connected to the biology. The biology is actually holding it back rather than being a, it being a product of the biology. And so you end up getting people saying, "Well, if I, if I will that I am a woman one day, then I should become a woman." And it's like, okay. (laughs) I mean, like I, I don't wanna ... I'm not trying to be mean or anything. And I know that ... I, I agree that gender dysphoria was a, is a, you know, a, a problem that a person has. But that doesn't mean that the will is just correct, you know. We ... It's, it's ... There is a biological process that has not gone right to produce that result because it's an imperfect system. But the will itself, just 'cause it's ... You know, there, there's conditions that make it feel a certain way, it's not completely free and so we can't just treat it as autonomous, right? But they are treating it as autonomous. "Oh, I will that I'm a woman. I will that I'm this. I will that my ..." It's like, yeah, okay. You know, you can say that. But, you know, objective reality has a different opinion. And the, the b- the big schism between the two is whether you are a kind of person who believes in objective reality, which means we're rooted in biology and rooted in things that we can touch, or are we actually, you know, sovereign wills that are trapped within this fleshy form, you know? So that's ... I, I, I realise that that's, that's probably ... It sounds silly to people who aren't really thinking deeply about all of this. But that's essentially the philosophical basis, I think.

Chris Williamson 27:38 The manifestation of the will, the manifestation of that inner soul somehow-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 27:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:42 ... that is what it is. Yeah, um-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 27:45 Well, just to explain very, ver- ... Yeah. The, like, the ... It, it comes basically from continental philosophy and it, it comes essentially from the idea that the will ... That there can be a perfectly good will, and a perfectly good will can only be something that's not contingent on reality, 'cause it would have to be true in all times and places basically. Um, and that ... It's a, it's a very, uh, continental way of looking at it and it's not a very British way of looking at it. Brit- It's a very idealistic way of looking at it. Uh, but the, the, the English-speaking world has always been very empirical, uh, and not really given to tremendous flights of fancy. Um, and that's essentially the, the major difference that we're looking at here.

Chris Williamson 28:25 Yeah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 28:25 And so it's not a surprise that the English-speaking world is looking at this thinking, "What the hell is going on?" Because (laughs) it doesn't make any sense to them, you know. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's annoying frankly.

Chris Williamson 28:35 What's your views on the recent removal of Fawlty Towers, German episode?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 28:40 (laughs) Um, it's been decades since I've seen it. But if I recall correctly (laughs) , wasn't that mocking racism? Like, wasn't that the point of it?

Chris Williamson 28:50 I'm not sure.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 28:52 I'm absolutely certain that the point ... I, I ... Like, like I said, it's been decades since I've watched it, but I'm sure that the point of the episode is to mock some guy who is being racist all the time and to show him as being the backwards buffoon that he clearly was. Um, but yeah, nothing, nothing's safe. And, uh, you know what's interesting is who asked for it? Who asked for them to take these things down, you know? This is, this is the very interesting thing. It wasn't the-

Chris Williamson 29:14 Germans don't strike me as the sort of group that are vetting ... I don't know what Ger- I don't know the German culture that closely, but they don't strike me as the sort of social justice-y type.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 29:26 Uh, there's probably a bit more social justice in there than you think.

Chris Williamson 29:29 Really?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 29:30 Um, oh, yeah. I lived in Germany for eight years. Like qu- They, they, they, they're quite systematic thinkers. Um, but it, it wasn't Germans that got it pulled. It wasn't even because of Germans. Uh, it was because the guy said the N-word in it. Um, because in the sev-

Chris Williamson 29:43 Did he?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 29:43 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Made in the '70s. So-

Chris Williamson 29:46 I don't remember that happening.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 29:48 I'm s- I'm s- I, I think ... I'm sure he did. I'm sure he did. I, like I said-

Chris Williamson 29:51 Tell us in the comments below.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 29:52 Yeah, yeah. It's been decades since I've seen it, but I'm sure he says the N-word in it. But that's part of the ridiculousness of the character, you know. That's part of what you're meant to be laughing at, um. But yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't Germans that got it pulled down, but it was g- it was people who were un- aware that the mob on Twitter has certain trigger points and one of those is the N-word. The other one is blackface, you know. The, uh ... So a bunch of things were taken down that had people doing blackface. And again, the joke is not at the expense of Black people, it's the expense of the character doing the blackface. But it doesn't matter. The context is all gone now. None of that matters.

Chris Williamson 30:27 I mean, Bo' Selecta was shite when it came out.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 30:29 Yes. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:30 Like that should have been taken down for just being shit. Like forget-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 30:35 Yes.

Chris Williamson 30:35 ... forget the implications of social justice.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 30:36 But that's whiteness. That's white meritocratic view, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 30:39 Well, Avid Maron was just wank.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 30:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:41 Like regardless, regardless of that.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 30:43 Yeah, he was.

Chris Williamson 30:43 I never liked that. And man, like how dare you, how dare you make your career off the back of Craig David who it must've murder- And I know for a fact that he's had a conversation with Lee-... what's he called? The fella that- Avid Marion guy, the guy that's like three layers behind the person that was-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 31:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:03 ... Craig David, that guy. Um, and, uh, then Craig had this amazing resurgence of a career, like, what, for sort of four or five years ago, something like that. Did that song and then Justin Bieber remix and blah, blah. And now he's selling out at Beta, doing all this stuff. But his career, make no mistake about it, his career stopped because of that character.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 31:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:24 That's why his career tanked. Like, uh, eh, forget the social justice side of stuff, that's one man bearing the brunt. Uh, the- he's the tip of a very, very, very long spear, right?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 31:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:37 And he's bearing the brunt of all of that. Like, that is fucking disgusting. That's the thing that's terrible about it. Like, think about all the jokes that Craig David's had to go through, how this flourishing career, this young, uh, mixed race, uh, R&B artist, fantastic good-looking guy, really good voice, blah, blah, blah. And then just some fella decides-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 31:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:56 ... again, regardless of race, could have been a Black guy, could have been a white guy-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 31:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:58 ... could have been an Asian guy, decides to do that. Like, that's absolutely scandalous. But that was allowed on TV at the time. How do you get something passed that is targeting one person?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 32:10 Well, that, that was why John Barnes said he saw no problem with it at all, it's making fun of a particular person. He wasn't making fun of a race or anything. But, uh, a- again now, with, with this new framework of the idea of whiteness, uh, there's no such thing. Like, everything that we do is inherently racial, uh, to these people. So, uh, y- none of, none of that sort of stuff is gonna be made anymore, you know?

Chris Williamson 32:34 So-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 32:34 This, this is over now. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:35 Y- is this just the new world? 'Cause I- being honest, like, I, again, I don't want... My empathy's sort of fairly crippling and I don't want something to be on TV that makes a group of people feel uncomfortable. Like, if, if it was, uh, if that was the sort of thing that really does make a, a big swath of the population feel uncomfortable, then I- eh- like, have it for the people that should have it on DVD or whatever.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 32:58 Sure.

Chris Williamson 32:58 You know, the same way as sacrilegious books or whatever back in the day.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 33:02 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:02 Don't burn the books, but also-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 33:03 In the same way Facebook doesn't put pornography on.

Chris Williamson 33:06 Curate the message for the audience.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 33:08 Yeah. Tha- tha- that's fine.

Chris Williamson 33:08 And don't put it in front of people who may not want to see it. Um-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 33:11 Sure.

Chris Williamson 33:11 But is, is this the new world now? Have we permanently brought the guard rails in on the type of content that's going to be produced publicly?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 33:19 Um, yes, until there's a counterrevolution. Uh, the, the social justice types are revolutionaries, openly so. They'll tell you. I mean, Bernie Sanders has been leading this and he's been calling it a revolution. He wrote a book called Our Revolution, you know. I mean, he's not nearly dow- as far down the rabbit hole as these people, but he's still part of the same movement. Um, and they, they're very, uh, they love communist revolutions 'cause the idea is they're gonna, there's gonna be an amazing revolution, will establish the perfect order, and therefore, history's over, we can carry on living as however we, we choose. Um, the, essentially, there's gonna ha- uh, uh, like, it l- and it looks like all of our institutions are falling to this. It looks like every company, 'cause there's, there's no solid defense against it because essentially, you would have to make a defense outside of the logic of the thing and nobody seems to be prepared to do this. Like, every, every conservative should be standing saying, "Look, I'm not making a commentary on Black Lives Matter as, in as much as I am objecting to the moral framework that Black Lives Matter is built on." You know? "I don't believe in racial collectivization. I don't believe that we should tear down some because of the others. And I don't believe that we can ignore bad actions for good intent." You know, the actions matter. The- we're, like, I say we, but generally, like, I guess what we'll just call the right wing is very procedural, you know, how you get to where you are, the, the means of what justify the ends, and they really are on the other side, the ends justify the means. This is why they didn't care (laughs) if they're burning down cities. Like, thousands of buil- businesses have been burned and looted in America in the past month. Thousands. It's crazy. In 40 cities. There's a part of a city that's been taken over by communists. And I'm just like... (laughs) like, that's just... No, not one thing burned or looted is justified, you know, but to the people who are supporting it, and this is everywhere. This is newspapers, this is left-wing politicians, this is corporations. To the people supporting it, they don't care, you know. They don't care about the damage that's been done. And that's, that's the, the, the, the schism at the heart of the whole thing. And an- while this order is in place, it's going to act exactly as you would think. It's going to drive towards moral perfection, like this abstract moral perfection. You, you can already see it now. Who was it? Someone, someone who did blackface, uh, in a comedy skit like 10 years ago, I, I can't remember which one it was, one of the like late-night comedians or something.

Chris Williamson 35:51 Jimmy Fallon or someone like that.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 35:52 Yeah, someone like that. It wasn't him, but it was someone like that. They, they were saying they were taking like a year off or something. (laughs) It's like, "Oh, really? Why is that?" You know? Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:59 Just happens to be at the time when the blackface video resurfaces.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 36:02 Exactly. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 36:02 So, I mean, I, I, I don't really-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 36:04 But the, the, the thing, the thing is this order's gonna continue and it's gonna continue establishing itself until essentially it becomes untenable. But this, this group of people on the other side who think, "Well, actually, we think that a plurality of views and behavior matters," um, until they conduct their own kind of counterrevolution and either not just take back the industries or create new ones, um, then it's gonna be the social justice regime from here on out. And you can see it on the, on Twitter at the moment, the things going around of the Sky, Sky Cinema, where they're like, (laughs) "This, this, uh..." Like, I can't remember exactly how it is, but essentially, "This film was made in a different era and may contain scenes that are disturbing to the people." And it's based- you know, it's for everything. Even like the 2019 Aladdin reboot is now problematic. That's how quickly-

Chris Williamson 36:53 Because it's making pejorative statements about people from Arabia.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 36:56 I don't even think it is. Like, I watched it. It, I did- I didn't see anything that I thought was-

Chris Williamson 37:00 The curly-toed shoes with the little bells on the end or anything like that?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:04 That's not...... is that bad? Like is that- (laughs) Is it demeaning?

Chris Williamson 37:06 Well, I don't know. This is the thing, right? Because... But I don't know.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:09 Like... Yeah, no, I don't. You don't. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:10 I d- I don't know. So Variety... I asked you this. Variety's 10 problematic films that need disclaimers and discussions before and after watching.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:19 And they're now on Skype, uh, Sky. They're now there.

Chris Williamson 37:22 I'm not sure.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:22 Sorry, hang on. No, no, they are.

Chris Williamson 37:24 In this list, Dirty Harry, Forrest Gump, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Me Before You, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which only came out last year.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:34 Uh, and then Children's Hour, The Searchers. So they're from the '60s. Forrest Gump 1994, Dirty Harry 1971.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:41 Indiana Jones 1984. I think that one was a, was problematic because it showed Hindu people as being the ones that can take your heart out.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 37:50 Yeah. Uh, so yeah. I mean, th- this, it, it's the circular firing squad that Obama was talking about. Now culture is going to be cleansed. And when people do this, there's a way... It, it's also competitive, right? There's a way, there is a way of attaining status by doing this. By taking the scalp, you get to brag and say, "Well, look, I just aided the revolution." You know, we are slightly closer to the social justice future because Indiana Jones has been censored or whatever.

Chris Williamson 38:16 Because head on a spike.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 38:18 Exactly, head on a spike. And it... And this taking things down becomes a competitive sport, you know. Everyone's looking at everyone else getting kudos and thinking, "Well, I need to do something. Oh, I've found something." You know? And so the- these campaigns will intensify, um, until someone just says, "Well, look, I just don't agree that this is a problem."

Chris Williamson 38:35 Realistically, that's-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 38:35 If I'm the one controlling it...

Chris Williamson 38:37 That's not gonna happen. Like-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 38:37 No, it's not. Everyone's terrified.

Chris Williamson 38:39 Yeah. And rightly so. Like, the, the silence is deafening stuff. So CrossFit. I don't know whether you've seen that the CrossFit CEO put his foot in it in a really, really huge way. They hadn't-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 38:49 No, I didn't.

Chris Williamson 38:49 They hadn't decided to put out a message when every other company was during that period, that like five-day period. They didn't do that.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 38:57 The, the black message with white writing. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:59 Um, they, they didn't have one of those. And then Gregg Glassman, the CEO, did a thing, tweeted. Um, there was a little bit of nuance to it when you dug in deeper, but it was ju- it was just a stupid tweet. Like... And when you think of the current environment, it was as, as basically as stupid as you can get. And now he's resigned, and that is, that has tumbled out... There's no way that that wasn't gonna happen. There's no way that that wasn't gonna happen. And I, you know, from my side, I think, yeah, he fucked up. Like, see you later on, Gregg. Like, you're off mate.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 39:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:31 But there has to be a line somewhere with what we do with culture and with what we allow in from history. People that fuck up right now, I'm like, "Look mate, you're an adult." You know? But you can't judge the situations of history by the standards of today. However...

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 39:50 Well, yeah. You, you wouldn't because it'd be irrational to do so. It's like, it'd be like-

Chris Williamson 39:55 But something that was made... The Searchers, made in 1956.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 39:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:59 Should that be condemned for it? Okay, no, that shouldn't. That should be taken down. Okay, let's roll the clock forward. At what point does doing a thing which today is reprehensible but back then was acceptable become due recompense in the now? Because no one's going to the people that made The Searchers in 1956 and saying, "We need your head on a spike. Let's get rid of your blue tick on Twitter. Let's do this."

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:26 They probably all did.

Chris Williamson 40:27 Yeah, but... Okay, so at some point-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:29 ... whether it was the Children's Hour in 1961 or Indiana Jones.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:32 Who was the guy in Indiana Jones?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:34 Harrison Ford.

Chris Williamson 40:35 Harrison Ford. Har- Harrison Ford's head's not on a spike.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:38 Uh, Harrison Ford isn't really responsible. Like, you'd think they'd be going after George Lucas for writing it, wouldn't you?

Chris Williamson 40:43 Yeah. But my point is like-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:45 ... there, there's, there's-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 40:46 But they will. They will.

Chris Williamson 40:46 There's a line somewhere, and I just want, I want to try and work out where that is. Because once we have something definite, something, a, a guideline that you can work with, you can be like, "Okay, I can respect the boundary that has been set. I can ensure that there is a rule whereby we do not make people in this, in, in this world feel uncomfortable." But for as long as there isn't a rule, you can pick and choose. That's good, that's bad, that's good, that's bad. Joe Biden says in one sentence that it's, uh, racist for Trump to not let Chinese people in, and then two months later says that the lockdown started too late.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 41:27 Yeah. I think, um-

Chris Williamson 41:27 Like, multiple things being true at once is...

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 41:30 Yeah. I th- I think that the desire to find consistent rules is, uh, in, in some ways foolish, because it comes... I, I'm not trying to be insulting or anything. I, I, I spent years struggling with that too, right? Um, it's, it's... And so I, you know, I was foolish to think-

Chris Williamson 41:51 Teach me. Expedite, expedite my progress through this, this wilderness.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 41:55 Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, once you realize that they're going for revolution, you realize that, okay, well, revolutions are effectively wars. You know, you're, you're talking strategy and tactics, disposition of the troops on the field, whatever the, whatever the field of battle is, you know. It could be Magic the Gathering or something, you know, Dungeons and Dragons, you know, or playing card games or, you know, video games or whatever. It could be Hollywood movies. Whatever the field of battle is, you've got, uh, people who are more powerful than others and, and they, they make moves, and your side wins, your side loses. And once you realize that... And all of social justice requires power to be defined with it. What's racism? It's power plus privilege, right? That's, uh, pow- power plus prejudice. Sorry. Um, that's, that's not the definition of racism we use, but that's the social just- All of these words are defined contextually in a schema of power. Um, and once you realize that, you realize that there's no point trying to be, uh, morally accurate in- to what you've already said or to your own principles, right? Um, because you're not trying to establish fairness. You're trying to win.... you know? So if something-

Chris Williamson 43:07 At any, at any-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 43:07 ... benefits my side, yeah, really, at any-

Chris Williamson 43:09 Route. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, in any direction.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 43:11 I mean, th- I mean, it's not, it's not at any cost. They do have, they do have limits to things that they'll do and they won't do. Uh, but those limits are way outside of the boundaries of what someone like you or me might find acceptable. You know, burning down busi- small businesses is totally within these limits. You know? But, uh, you know, I don't know, insulting a trans woman o- of color on Twitter, that's totally out of limits. That's not gonna do it, you know? So they've, they've just got very different standards. Um, what was I gonna say?

Chris Williamson 43:41 Harrison Ford? (laughs)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 43:43 The... Uh, no, the, the, the battlefield. Uh, right, yeah. So, this is why you see Joe, you know, Joe Biden can say one thing when it's advantageous for his team, and then the complete contradictory position when it's advantageous for his team, and none of his team will call him up on this.

Chris Williamson 44:00 That, that-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:00 It doesn't matter.

Chris Williamson 44:01 Mate, that, that blows my mind. The fact that you can have-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:05 It's their culture.

Chris Williamson 44:05 ... someone who can reverse their position, say a thing-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:09 ... and then within months say another thing. These people are supposed to be the leaders of public opinion, the pinnacle-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:15 Yes.

Chris Williamson 44:15 ... of how we deliver the will of the people to the, the upper echelons of the most powerful country on the planet. How on earth is that allowed to happen?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:27 Uh, because it's the great and good doing it. They're the ones with their fingers on the levers of power, aren't they?

Chris Williamson 44:32 Like, it should be the sort of thing that people scream from the rooftops. Like, "These are your-"

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:37 That's what we're doing here. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:38 "... elected pub- public officials."

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:40 Yep.

Chris Williamson 44:40 But it's like, how is there not... How does this allow you to trust p- And that's not me to say Trump's any better, you know? Trump, Trump says-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:47 Trump's got a myriad of failings.

Chris Williamson 44:49 Oh, yeah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 44:49 But Trump is not a revolutionary. He doesn't want to overthrow the American republic. He doesn't hate the Founding Fathers. He's not gonna tear down any statues (laughs) . He's not gonna do any of... He's not gonna defund the police, you know? He's not gonna increase drug and crime rates, you know, things like... Like, Trump has got so many failures. But being in favor of the concept of the system is not one of them, you know? That he's, he's at least on that. Whereas the left hate the system, they hate what it is, how it's founded, in their view. And so, they, they're going to do so much more damage than Trump would ever even conceive of doing. Trump, like, again, like, Trump actually seems to care about fairness, as stupid as that sounds. Uh, when Charlottesville happened and he was like, "Look, I'm not talking about the Nazis," even though CNN always cut that bit out, uh, but, "On both sides of the argument, there are good people." That's a fairness issue. You know, if he, if he wanted, he could have said, "Yeah, the, the Proud o- uh, sorry, not the Proud Boys, the, um, the Nazis at Charlottesville, you know, the, the protesters did nothing wrong. Antifa did something wrong." If he wanted. It would look terrible. You know, a fair-minded person would be like, "Hang on a second."

Chris Williamson 45:57 Mm-hmm.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 45:58 "You know, they're both bad at this." (laughs) You know, and that, you know, it- it's not just one or the other. And so when they, when the media, when CNN, when the Democrats say all evil lies in the opposition, you know that they're not playing for, in, in the i- ideal of establishing a fair, uh, playing field or, or how do I say? Not, not just playing field, but just atmosphere.

Chris Williamson 46:20 But

Narrator 46:20 It's-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:20 ... a society that's fair.

Chris Williamson 46:22 Given the fact that we have this crazy COVID situation that's just happened-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:26 ... everyone's got heightened emotions, heightened intensity-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:29 Yes.

Chris Williamson 46:29 ... their time on site has been increased, they haven't got to see the people that they love, they're scared about catching a pathogen, which is like evolutionary wired into us to be something to be afraid of-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:38 Sure.

Chris Williamson 46:38 ... so you've got this, uh, ambient anxiety, right? This low-level ambient anxiety that just sits in the background.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:46 Then, on top of that, you have this constant news cycle, which this year has just been...

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:50 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:50 Trump got impeached this year-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:54 ... this year, which feels like-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:55 And no one cares (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 46:56 ... which feels like 80 years ago.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:57 It does, doesn't it?

Chris Williamson 46:58 Y-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 46:58 And no one cares (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 46:59 So, you've got, you've got that's happened, you've got the-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 47:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:02 ... the news which is being, uh, either misrepresented, uh, distorted, either purposefully or just due to the fact that they've got to try and keep up, which means that there's going to be, uh, willful and just accidental negligence going on. Uh, then all of the George Floyd situation, you've got the subsuic- uh, subsequent riots, you've got... And then you've got the upcoming presidential election.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 47:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:24 Like, this is the time where we should be trying to be as precise as possible with the things that we say, as honest and as truthful as possible, because any slight deviation from that will be magnified. And then when-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 47:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:37 ... you add layer upon layer upon layer, like people that getting all of their truth from Twitter, like just from-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 47:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:44 ... some guy on Twitter-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 47:45 Yep.

Chris Williamson 47:45 ... and the fact that you can now do that and be a, a story which people start to repeat and becomes part of the canon, like, it doesn't surprise me that this situation, that when you fully reflect on 2020-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 47:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:58 ... it doesn't surprise me that we have this level of inflammatory discussion, people talking past each other, and just total, uh, the performative communication, everything. Uh, it doesn't surprise me-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 48:08 It, it was a long time coming. Uh, the, the, the Twitter stuff I find really interesting, uh, because of how it's affecting the media class. Uh, there was a leaked, uh, memo from The Daily Beast where the, the high-ups were trying to... Well, they, I think it was, they were forbidding the use of Twitter during office hours because they felt that Twitter, and this is, I think, broadly mal- uh, broadly accurate, that Twitter itself is actually doing damage to the journalistic profession because all the journalists on Twis-

Chris Williamson 48:37 Fucking razory.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 48:37 Yeah, I mean, like, uh, like, uh, yeah, the, the, the... And fake news is being widely perpetrated by it. Like, for example, when the football lads went to defend the Chur- statue of Churchill, uh, the fake news surrounding this and the misinformation surrounding this is quite staggering. Uh, the claim that they're Nazis is not true.And the proof of this is in the fact they were protesting against a statue of Winston Churchill being damaged. Gary Lineker or like, you know, some of the famous footballers tweeted out going, "Why are these Nazis trying to save a statue of Winston Churchill?" It's like, well that's, the very fact you're asking the question means you need to do more research, doesn't it, Gary? You know, you should have looked into this and gone, "Okay, well hang on. Are these Nazis?" And then you go, "Oh, no, they're doing Nazi salutes." And it's because there was a side-on, uh, picture and you could see people putting up their hands, both hands like this, uh, because they do, you know, they do this clap, chant in the thing and they were chanting "England." But from the side, oh, you, you can see how that might look like a Nazi salute.

Chris Williamson 49:36 For fuck's sake.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 49:36 Uh, but that was ... And even people like Julia Hartley-Brewer char- like repeating this. And then there was another fake bit of footage where someone had imposed over them, uh, the audio of some, uh, white nationalist or national front protest from like 2017 where they're chanting, "We're racist and we like it." And, and this was-

Chris Williamson 49:56 Jesus fucking Christ.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 49:56 ... again, repeated everywhere. On the radio, on LBC. I heard all ... And it's like that wasn't true. You know, the, the football lads, there are many failings. Again, like with Donald Trump, you know, many ethical failings with what they've done. However, they aren't Nazis. They are actually kind of like, you know, the post-World War II British patriots, you know. They firmly believe that Britain's role in the war was a good thing, they firmly believe in Winston Churchill's leadership, and they firmly believe in the narrative that we were on the site of, side of right and not on the side of the Nazis. And yet they're, they're going, "Oh, look at these Nazis." (laughs) I mean, what we can do, you know?

Chris Williamson 50:32 Did you see the map of voters in the UK that was shared just after the general election, and it had who voted by age and it went hyper viral on Facebook.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 50:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:47 And it basically showed that, um ... Uh, the implication was old people voted Conservative, that's how Boris got in power. Did you see this?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 50:55 Yes.

Chris Williamson 50:56 That became not only, not only something that people thought, but fully bel- Like, it was straight fact.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:06 And it was a map taken from 2017, 2016, I think.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:14 Really? I didn't know that.

Chris Williamson 51:15 Yes.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:17 See, it's amazing how this stuff goes viral and then creates the fake news. Like-

Chris Williamson 51:21 But it's just, but some guy, some fella.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:24 You know, or s- or some girl from Bristol or Wigan or, you, you know-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:27 Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah. Just made it up.

Chris Williamson 51:27 ... like Salford. And i- like it's, it's it was a fact, but not in this particular circumstance.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:33 But again, like, the fact that that is the way that the culture develops now should terrify everybody.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:42 No matter what side you're coming from.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 51:44 Yeah. Uh, so social media has been a curse that we weren't ready for. Um, and I, I mean, it, it's probable that something similar to the effect that we're seeing now would have happened given enough time. I think it's probably inevitable, uh, given the philosophies and, you know, them percolating through the culture. It probably would have done. But I think social media is just esce- essentially an accelerating factor that's just got everything to go so much faster. And like, there, there was a study that showed that Twitter activates the same parts of the brain as being in a fight. So when you get on Twitter you're in fight mode.

Chris Williamson 52:12 Oh, I've heard of this.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 52:12 Y- Oh no, totally. You might not be moving, but your heart's pumping, your adrenaline's going, your, and your brain is, is, you know, is you're like, "Arrr," arguing with someone on Twitter. You may as well be going to have a fight with that person. So it's like, okay, you're essentially stepping into the world's largest fight club when you log into Twitter.

Chris Williamson 52:27 (laughs) Fucking hell.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 52:27 (laughs) And get ready to get punched because everyone gets punched on Twitter, you know what I mean? And so it, like (laughs) it's just, it's not good. And the thing-

Chris Williamson 52:37 So what do we ... What do we do, man?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 52:38 Well-

Chris Williamson 52:39 Like ...

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 52:39 Well, the, the problem is that the, the interpretation of the facts, uh, diverging is fine. Everyone expects a divergent view of the interpretation of the facts. But because people are sat in their online echo chambers and there can't really be any other way of doing this apart from having it so that you don't get to choose what you follow. Uh, because when people get to choose what they follow, they follow the things that they like and that means they only get that perspective, one, you know, one view. And so it, it was that there was a, a plurality of opinions on the same facts, but now there is not. There's, there's divergent facts for each side. And I really wish when Kellyanne Conway said, "Oh, there are alternative facts," and it was like, "Ha ha, there's no such thing as alternative facts." Like, yeah there are. There are facts you're not listening to, you're not paying attention to. Like, you know, despite being 13%, you know, that's a fact that you didn't wanna mention. It's an alternative fact. It's still real and yet you leave it out of the narrative. And so it's, you know, it's, it's ... It's now (laughs) at the point where we don't even agree the same thing's happened. You know, the-

Chris Williamson 53:43 Yeah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 53:43 ... the, the, the London bubble is like, "Oh, well there were Nazi salutes." People with video cameras didn't capture any Nazi salutes. These people do not profess to be Nazis and they wished to defend Winston Churchill. What do we do? Well, in the meantime, I don't know, I don't have all the answers obviously, but one, one thing that I do is I make sure that even if I hate it, I watch information from sources I don't agree with. Um, and there are a bunch of sources that I really don't agree with and I've found even more insufferable, but I've continued to force myself to watch these things, to get, you know, for ... N- watch certain people's coverage of certain events.

Chris Williamson 54:18 To get the other facts.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 54:19 To get the other facts that they left out.

Chris Williamson 54:21 What are these, what would you say? So let's say that I am, which I am, a person who wants to try and at least get a broad cross-section of what's going on. What, what would you advise that I read and listen to?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 54:32 Well, I mean, the, the most obvious place to start is like, look, if you're gonna watch the mainstream news, um, watch Fox News and MSNBC. And you'll hear two sides of the same narrative that will include facts that the other one didn't include. Uh, so you will learn things from both sides. Um, and that's essentially what you've got to do on any subject, any g- any given event. Uh, so I, I find myself, you know, watching like David Pakman or Novara Media.... and at the same time watching Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson. And I, I mean, like I, I don't really like Fox News, I don't really like any of the personalities other than Tucker Carlson, because I think he's actually on the money a lot these days. Um, but y- basically you've got to find yourself a sort of list of people on either side of any political debate who you find tolerable, that you can watch, even if you disagree with them. You've just got to figure it out, you know, and you've just got to accept that they see the world differently to you, but you still do need to have both of those things. This is something that, um, Hayek, uh, pointed out in The Road to Serfdom, that the, the dangers of totalitarianism, the reason that totalitarian societies become like they are is not because of propaganda. In, in every society there's propaganda, it's just in a liberal society, there's a plurality of propaganda pulling you in all different directions-

Chris Williamson 55:50 Ah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 55:50 ... so you're introduced to all different kinds of things. So you don't ever get s- "Okay, I only heard one thing, so I believe that's reality and that's it." You know, because you see maybe something else.

Chris Williamson 55:59 It makes it so messy that it's almost impossible to work out what's going on. And what, what does-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 56:03 Well, n- n- n- n- n- n- not, not that it makes it impossible to work out what's going on, it means it's m- much more difficult to find yourself in a political cult where you've only heard one side of the story and you've never heard the other side.

Chris Williamson 56:12 Okay.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 56:12 Uh, so y- you can still, you know, you can find out what's going on from all this plurality of sources, it's just you won't be radicalized to one particular worldview or the other. Um, and it's, it, it's not th- it's not wrong for people to have their own political opinions they put out, obviously everyone's free to do so. Um, the, the danger with totalitarian societies is it creates radicals and crazies who are zealots for the system, because they only ever hear one thing and so the other people must be evil. And our social media feeds are doing that for us, so it's really important that we remember that we're not 100% right and we are actually kind of self-radicalizing, and we've got to try and decondition ourselves.

Chris Williamson 56:49 We need to take everything that we read with an increasing pinch of salt-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 56:53 Yes.

Chris Williamson 56:53 But the problem is now, as you've identified, the old bastions of truth that we would be able to rely on a long time ago, they're no longer there.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 57:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 57:03 Because they also have an agenda, and they also have pressures, and they also get stuff wrong and, like, so-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 57:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:10 Again, layer all of this on top of the worst global pandemic in 100 years and everyone being locked in the house and heightened tensions and emotions and stuff like that.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 57:21 30 people died in the Black Lives Matter protests in America. 30 people died. Like there were videos of guy, you know, this one guy got beaten unconscious and then his teeth kicked in just as he's laying on the floor, someone punts him straight in the face. And I watched that and I was like, "Fuck." You know, and you know, 30 police officers in London were injured at the Black Lives Matter protest, and then another 20 when the football lads went down. You know, again, I'm not gonna say that it's only one side that's done it or anything like that, you know, but, but if I were a partisan on either side, I absolutely would. And the BBC and Sky News absolutely did make it sound as if the Black Lives Matter, the mostly peaceful protest that injured 30 cops, you know, like that's not a peaceful protest.

Chris Williamson 57:58 Didn't you see the video of the horse running down the street?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 58:00 Yeah, yeah, because someone chucked a bike and rocks at it and stuff like that, and then the woman gets the-

Chris Williamson 58:04 And then it knocks, it knocks-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 58:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:05 ... some, some pedestrian over. Man, yeah, like, that's, that's the thing as well, like, I feel even with this channel, like I'm, I feel like I'm treading on ice with everything that I say. And I'm like, hang on, I, I want, I know that I have reasonable views. I also know that there are people out there that require sense-making to be done. Anyone that's listening, the two best podcasts that I've heard on this is Sam Harris's Can We Pull Back from the Brink, which is phenomenal sense-making, and the most recent, Bret Weinstein and Eric- on, uh, Joe Rogan, which was also fantastic. If you listen to those two, uh, pieces of content, it'll take you maybe five hours in total, I think, but you will be in full possession-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 58:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:48 ... of a bunch of facts and a bunch of opinions. And Sam's final piece on his podcast, which I absolutely love, is where he says, "Can we imagine a society in which the color of your skin was treated the same as the color of your hair?" That would be an aracial society.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 59:06 Yes.

Chris Williamson 59:06 An, a race-agnostic society. And to me, looking at what's happening at the moment, this is so much more divisive than it is, uh, cohesive, right?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 59:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:18 And the thing which makes it feel so, like it was so close, or at least I felt like it was so close, right? At the beginning of this pandemic, I had, uh, Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, who used to be an advisor to the World Health Organization on, really good episode and I was just like, "Look, tell us about it." And the one thing that came up to me there was, it doesn't even rain everywhere on the planet at the same time. There are very few things which unite humanity globally in one turn. Very few things that remind us, and there was that famous quote, I think it was, um, like, uh, one of the mid-'70s presidents that said, "Can you imagine how quickly we would forget all of our terrestrial differences if we had a threat from an alien civilization?"

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 59:56 Wasn't that Reagan who said that?

Chris Williamson 59:58 Don't know. Someone. But my point is, my point is that when you are, as a species, as a, as a humanity, is facing this threat, you do combine together. I know-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:00:09 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:09 ... what lockdown in Wuhan kind of feels like. I know what the f- y- you, a little bit different, but you get my point, like I have-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:00:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:17 ... something, something in common with-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:00:18 There's a shared human experience.

Chris Williamson 1:00:19 Absolutely. And I was like, at the beginning of this, the first thing I thought, or one of the first things I thought was, "Wow, this really could be, in a very bizarre sort of way, something that unites us, something that creates a globe which actually appreciates what we are as a species." You know? And just how tenuous our grasp on existence is. And it felt to me like, look, this is kind of getting there and then... (smacks lips)

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:00:48 Yeah, I, I, that sounds too optimistic to me. I, I, I don't, I, I think that at worst, uh, that, sorry, the best that the coronavirus could have done is just delayed. And it probably did, you know. This, this maybe would have happened, you know, three months ago if it wasn't for the coronavirus. Um, but the, the, the, these unresolved tensions, man. I can, I...It's totally valid to feel like we're in sort of Fall of the Republic territory here, because we are. I mean, this is, uh, you know, probably something like crisis of the third century if we're comparing Western civilization to Rome. Uh, so we've pro- we've- I think we probably do have a couple hundred years left to go. Uh, but I think it's evident that whatever we've been doing to bring us to this point is leading us on a path to destruction.

Chris Williamson 1:01:34 Something's wrong, right?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:01:35 And so... Yeah. Something's wrong. Something's deeply wrong. Um, this was probably, uh, built into the Enlightenment, uh, which I, I, I'm not- I don't relish to have to say, uh, because, you know, I, I, I'm a product of it and I believe in the ideals. But you have to be honest about the things that are going wrong and these people are pushing for, like, absolute freedom and they seem to be wanting to destroy everything that we have. It took a long time to get to this position. There's very- a lot of hard work from a lot of good people. And I'm not prepared to call them all bad people because the moral standards have changed, you know. That's un- and it's unacceptable. It's- it- what's really insulting about that is it's essentially saying that the Roman Empire's army could never have learned to use guns, right? Because we, we don't- it- like, morality develops over time, you know. We- there, there was a time when literally no one on Earth questioned the institution of slavery. Why would you? What the hell are you talking about? You know. And then there became a time where people did start questioning it, then there came a time where it was essentially like a moral revolution where we were like, "No. There can't be any slavery." You know. Then it- and then democracy comes. "No, everyone should have the franchise. Why should these people have it?" It's like, okay, this is great. And it's the same as developing this- you know. So we're saying that, like, people back in, you know, the, the 16th Center or whatever, you know, if they had been raised now or, you know, introduced to our ideas, our concepts, they couldn't have believed that actually we should-

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 That they were somehow-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:02:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:57 ... i- i- innately deficient. That they had-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:02:59 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 ... they had poorer morals in-built into them.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:02 E- exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:03:02 Not that they were just a product of their environment.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:04 E- exactly. Which is amazing for the philosophy that views everything as a political contextual battle, you know. But yeah. Exactly. It- you know. They are the product of their time, you know. That's- what do you, what do you expect? Most people end up r- re- representing the societies in which they've been raised and their society had normalized moral standards that we think are terrible, and it's only because we've got a different society that everyone agrees, you know. And so it's- it seems to be doing them a great disservice. It's- it's awful. And I- and I mean it.

Chris Williamson 1:03:36 It's a, it's a Jor- a Jordan Petersonism where he talks about how, um, people that believe that if they were back in Maoist China or in, uh, Stalin's Russia-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:44 ... that they would've done it differently, that they would've behaved differently.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:48 And it's like-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:49 Why?

Chris Williamson 1:03:49 ... you would have to be an extraordinary human-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:54 ... for that to be the case. And if you're a determinist then, you know ... (inhales deeply) Yeah. Yeah. Well-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:59 But yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:59 But I mean that- that-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:03:59 But no. But that's- that's exactly the point. It's like why, why would you think that they wouldn't react rationally to the pressures that have been put on them? Right? 'Cause they, they are. They, you know, they get, uh, it's a rational reaction in the, in the situation that they're in. It might not be a good one, but you'll, you'll- when you're in their place, you'll see why they took those decisions and depending on the kind of person you are, you might take them too, and that's then...

Chris Williamson 1:04:23 There must be an element of this on the other side of the fence though, on the Black Lives Matter protesters that have a, a small minority who have tried to potentially hijack this movement to move it toward ends that th- the vast majority of people that are supporting it-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:04:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:41 ... don't actually want, and then they're kind of getting dragged along and they're, again, they're products of perhaps the-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:04:49 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:49 ... the loudest, the most Machiavellian-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:04:51 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:04:51 ... I don't know how it works. And the main-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:04:53 Oh, no. You're, you're spot on. That's exactly how it works.

Chris Williamson 1:04:55 The, the main problem that I can see is that without a single leader for Black Lives Matter from a, um, distributed leadership "we can always continue to move forward" perspective, that's great, but from a negotiation perspective so that you can actually start to move forward productively with the rest of the world, like, who do you talk to?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:05:19 Yeah. There's a problem with, um, the sort of secular religion that has become, uh, the, the, the radical left. Well, essentially it is all an aspect of communism, I would say. Uh, the, the idea of borders and boundaries-

Chris Williamson 1:05:32 But the vast ma- sorry-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:05:33 ... are problematic.

Chris Williamson 1:05:33 ... the vast majority-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:05:34 Not for-

Chris Williamson 1:05:35 ... the vast majority of people-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:05:35 No. No. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:35 ... following it don't think that, so how-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:05:37 Of course. Of course.

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 ... how have they adopted or how have they, uh, internalized this? Like, who's, who's giving it to them?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:05:46 Um, people who are very clever, people who have been training for this. Th- this is- people who have been studying for this for their whole lives. I mean, this is what Robin DiAngelo is talking about, you know. This- they- they've very, very carefully thought about these things and they're very good at laundering their ideas through other ideas that are totally reasonable, you know. "We want police reform." Totally reasonable. "That means defund the police." Totally unreasonable. (laughs) You know? Like, there's, there's a- there's not only one way of doing it. Um, I was, I was gonna say something else very quickly then as well but I've forgotten what it was. So yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:21 Got it. Um, last thing, mate. How would you advise someone communicate to now moving forward in a productive manner? Do you have a way that you try and do that?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:06:33 Um, don't be a hero because these people are on a- on edge, uh, there's blood in the water and they, they will come for you, you know. They'll do as much damage to your life as they can and they'll feel justified in doing it. Um, they, they will ruin you if, if they can. Uh, so don't be a hero. Um, but if it's something that's really bothering you and you, you feel tremendously motivated to do something, there are lots of, um, people who are trying to push back in lots of different ways and you can do your part by like, you know, buying their book or buying, you know, the T-shirt or whatever it is that they're doing to finance themselves because-... competition to the moral worldview that's being presented in Black Lives Matter and Antifa, uh, is being attacked. You know, th-- it's just being attacked for being in opposition to this, at this point. So you, th- these people definitely need support. But it is also worth, um, trying to go past the idea of police reform. Because, uh, essentially you can be like, "Well, there are many ways to skin a cat," right?" Like, I might, I might want police reform too, but I don't think defunding the police is the way to get police reform. So I'm gonna ... You know, I have a different idea for that which might be ... And, I mean, there are lots of ideas. Like, uh, in America something like 70% of the police don't police their own districts that they live in, so they're from out of town. They're coming ... That's, you know, that's ... You can see why that would be a concern, right? So you might want police reform so it's like, you know, 70% do police their own districts or something like that, you know. So there, there are other ways to get, um, to s- to resolve issues. And there are issues to be resolved. Um, but I guess, you know, you just have to have these very difficult conversations if you want. But you'll probably get disavowed very quickly. (laughs) 'Cause there's-

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 It's hard, man. Like, I love, I-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:08:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:21 ... I absolutely adore having, having nuanced conversations.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:08:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:24 This is what I would spend my entire time doing, trying to work out exactly where the truth lies, this, isn't this interesting. But again, like, the things that we need to talk about the most are precisely the things that we can't talk about.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:08:36 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:37 And it makes, that's what scares me. Because I'm like, "I don't know whether I'm going to say something which yesterday was reasonable, and yet today is a landmine." And as you can see with, "We should pull this show down off TV, we should do this," you're talking about some shows, like, uh, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, that are a year old.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:08:57 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:08:57 You're talking about something where the rules have changed, because ... Uh, maybe people were up in arms, I don't know, but I didn't see people being up in arms when that film came out. It got a bunch of big accolades, got the huge director behind it, Quentin Tarantino and blah, blah. And I'm like, "I have conversations for a living. This is what I do for hours and hours per week, as do you."

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:09:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:18 Uh, perhaps you're, uh, you've slightly bigger pair of brass balls than I do. But my point is that, as someone who is, like, a professional conversationalist-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:09:27 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:27 ... I am real scared about-

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:09:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:31 ... about some of the conversations that I want to have. I want to have these conversations because I think that they're worthy, because I think they're interesting, because we are absolutely living through history. Like, oh my God.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:09:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:41 (laughs) Like, if 2020 isn't some history for you there, like, I don't know (laughs) what is.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:09:46 Yeah, I, I think it's probably gonna have, uh, a lot more written on it than the early 2000s, but you know.

Chris Williamson 1:09:51 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:09:51 It's, um ... But yeah, no, you, you are, you are right. I mean, this is why I've been in such consistent opposition to this worldview for such a long time. Because it is eminently, uh, demonstrable, from the small spaces in which it had taken over, that it very rapidly becomes tyrannical and imposes a kind of regime of terror on people. And lo and behold, now that it's taken over the mainstream culture, which I said that it would, I said this was coming. Now it's taken it over. Now everyone feels afraid. Like, you can see people, like, uh, Robin DiAngelo was on Jimmy Fallon the other day and, uh, the top reply to the tweet that had the video in it is, "You look like a hostage." And it's like, yes, he does, because if he says something wrong, he's getting canceled and he's never coming back. 'Cause there's no amount of forgiv-- there's no method of forgiveness or penance with this religion. Especially when status can be assumed by simply attacking someone who's morally inferior. You know, wh- while, while you can raise yourself up by doing nothing else than tearing other people down, you're never gonna be safe. You're never going to be safe. It's why I've been warning about this.

Chris Williamson 1:11:00 Um, look, Kyle, it's been, uh, a year since you were on. I have to give you as well, as a parting note, I have to give you a very big thank you for coming on last year. It was a huge help to the channel.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:08 It's been a big part of the growth, um, and, uh, I couldn't appreciate you more for, for coming back on. Uh, Teespring.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:14 No, my pleasure.

Chris Williamson 1:11:15 Is that the, is that the only place that we can get you now?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:17 Uh, no, no, no. Spreadshirt now. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:19 (laughs) You are kidding me.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:21 You got banned from a T-shirt site?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:23 Yeah, but it, it, it wasn't for political reasons. They, they, they ... I'd, I'd done a parody of a Star Wars logo.

Chris Williamson 1:11:30 Mm-hmm.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:30 Uh, well, I hadn't done it, but you know, we'd done a parody of a Star Wars T-shirt. And they were like, "No, no, no, that violates copyright." Or it might do. So we're like, "Okay, fine, we'll take it down." And then, like, two weeks later, they brought it back up again, accused me of re-uploading it, which I hadn't, and then were like, "Yep, that's it." And it's like, "Right, okay." So I don't think it was about that. I think it was actually about politics, but uh-

Chris Williamson 1:11:50 I'm telling you, the most de-monetized man on the internet.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:53 Quite possibly. Quite possibly.

Chris Williamson 1:11:55 I genu- So where, where can people go? They wanna find out more.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:57 Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:11:57 Where could they do stuff now?

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:11:59 They, they can just, um, search for Akkad Daily, A-k-k-a-d Daily. Uh, but I'll, I'll have, uh, something, I'll have my own site in a few months hopefully, so. Uh, but I'll let everyone know through my YouTube channel where to go, uh, soon.

Chris Williamson 1:12:12 Amazing. Thank you very much for your time, mate.

Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) 1:12:14 Thanks very much, man.

Narrator 1:12:18 (instrumental music playing)