Sharp Truths From A British Comedian - Jimmy Carr

Jimmy Carr 0:00 This is a big deal for me, uh, because I listen to the show so much. I absolutely love it. I slightly could fanboy about the whole thing. I really lo- I- I- I love what you do. I love this show. I'm nervous about it because I kinda go, well, normally it's an expert with something to say.

Chris Williamson 0:17 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 0:17 And I'm like, "Oh, I've got dick jokes if you need them."

Chris Williamson 0:20 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 0:21 "Will that do?"

Chris Williamson 0:22 S- why are you such a fan of it?

Jimmy Carr 0:24 I don't know. I think the breadth of the subject matter, and I think that thing of going it's in a... There's a lot of... It's that signal and noise. There's a lot of noise out there, and I love the idea that I listen to this show and... Even stuff that I'm, "Oh, well, maybe I wouldn't read that book," but I'm interested in listening to them for an hour and a half or two hours. And then oftentimes, it's something where someone says something and you go, "Wow, that's brilliant. I've gotta go and look at their channel, or I'm gonna go and find something." So I'm using it almost kind of a- as a- your research as a resource for me.

Chris Williamson 0:57 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 0:57 And I think a lot of people talk about diet, uh, and exercise, and they talk about, um, how it makes them feel, and they're eating right, and they're staying away from processed foods, and they look fantastic. And then you ask them what they're watching and they go, "Yeah, well, I'm watching Love Island, but, like, the old series, and I'm smashing through it." And I don't know if you're aware of Love Island, but it's- it's for- it's for- it's for terrible people doing terrible things. And the- the idea that you go... That information diet is such an important thing, of, like... I think you said it here, where you're sort of a, uh... If you tell someone the last five podcasts I listened to, it's a pretty good read on who they are and what they wanna do, and I love... The other thing I love about this show is I think it's got... It's aiming up. Everything seems to be... Like, the way that you conduct interviews and the way that you engage with people, it seems to be you're trying to bring the best out of them, which- which I- I like anyway, it's very positive to listen to, but it's also that everyone you have on is trying to make your life better. It's- it's very well-intentioned as a- as a show. Um, I- I think it's- it's terrific, and the- the- the transformation in you I think has been sort of- sort of extraordinary, the journey-

Chris Williamson 2:13 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 2:14 ... um, to this is- is just kind of amazing. When I see you... I- I mean, I- I genuinely got quite emotional with the Naval Ravikant, uh, thing, of c- 'cause I knew what that meant to you. And as someone who's a big fan of podcasts and a big fan of, I suppose, modern wisdom in- in the broader sense as well, like, someone like Naval, who's done maybe five or six podcasts ever and one incredible burst of wisdom on Twitter, you go, it's slim pickings if you're a fan. He's the J.D. Salinger of the podcast world. And then you get him on the show, and it's like, I felt like that was the... Is that your Mount Rushmore completed?

Chris Williamson 2:54 One more, Rogan. So it was a Mount Rushmore, but then I realized there was five, so it's more like Thanos' glove-

Jimmy Carr 2:59 Right.

Chris Williamson 2:59 ... with the different Infinity Stones. So it was, before I started, uh, Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Alain de Botton, and Naval Ravikant.

Jimmy Carr 3:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:08 That was before I started the show, those were the five I wanted, and I've got four. And after the last episode with Rogan, I woke up the next day, as you have today, with still the anxiety of, "Well, I hope, you know, I hope I didn't put my foot in my mouth too many times," and so on and so forth. And, uh, he texted me and was like, "Loved the show yesterday, man. Like, always a pleasure to sit down. By the way, we still need to get and book a date in to bring you on the show." Him on- so he's self-invited. So I was like, "Joe, give over, you know?"

Jimmy Carr 3:37 Yeah, I'm not for-

Chris Williamson 3:38 "I've got so many other people to speak to." Um, but yeah, there's a- there's definitely a little bit of a sense of, like, gold medal syndrome, uh, where I think, "Fuck," like, what do you do when you've completed the things that you said that you were here to do? And I imagine that that must be the same in your industry as well, you know, "When- when I can start selling out theaters, when I can start selling out arenas, when I can start selling out stadiums, when I get the Amazon Prime deal, when I... Well, we've gotta run it back for season two. I've gotta pro- ensure that it wasn't a fluke, I've gotta do it twice, that's the problem."

Jimmy Carr 4:10 Is it not Morgan Housel, uh, the- the- the genius that is Morgan Housel that said it's the, like, success is not moving the goalposts?

Chris Williamson 4:17 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 4:18 It's that thing, if you constantly eat like that, that, uh, uh, hedonic treadmill of, like, as soon as something good happens you go, "Yeah, but- but what about the- the next thing?" And, "Yeah, I said it was that amount of money, but now it's this amount of money." And I think the, um, most ambitions should be, um, internal. They should be, uh, you should be heading for a feeling, and if it's process-driven... 'Cause kinda success is a- is a- is a moment, you know, even if you get the- the big thing, whatever it is, and there's lots of those markers along the way. And I've kind of, um... I'm trying to think about celebration in a different way.

Chris Williamson 4:52 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 4:53 I'm trying to think about, like, celebrating those moments, like, the equivalent of Naval Ravikant comes on your podcast.

Chris Williamson 5:00 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:01 Um, you do a co-headliner with Dave Chappelle-

Chris Williamson 5:04 You sell out your tour.

Jimmy Carr 5:04 ... and he's moving to your show.

Chris Williamson 5:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 5:05 Whatev- whatev- whatever the thing is that you go, "Oh, that's cool."

Chris Williamson 5:09 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:09 Um, celebrating that as being, like... Celebration is gratitude in action, and that thing of, like, gratitude being the mother of all virtues. Uh, 'cause if you- if you kinda track it back to that, my kind of fundamental belief is that, um, disposition is more important than position. So where you are in the world, you could be- you could be miserable or you could be, you know, in- in- entirely at ease, and it's- it's kinda dependent on your disposition. Are you looking at the donut or the hole?

Chris Williamson 5:37 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:37 'Cause you could always look at what you don't have.

Chris Williamson 5:39 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:40 You could always look at wha- what's missing or who's doing better or the other thing, but- but, you know, kinda being grateful in the moment. And the thing that seems to shift that is- is kind of, uh, i- is gratitude now, and celebration as a form of gratitude. Like, tryna- I'm trying to reframe a lot of stuff in my life in a positive light.

Chris Williamson 5:58 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:58 So that thing of, like, I travel constantly, which- which is an incredible sort of privilege, but also incredibly boring a lot of the time.

Chris Williamson 6:07 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 6:08 It is, right? Travel is boring, but, um, but going places is fun and you're seeing new things. And it's this idea of, like, boredom as unappreciated serenity. There's guys up mountains in Tibet for 30 years trying to get to where I get to in Denver Airport, of like, "Ugh." And slightly, like, not being overstimulated, like, like allowing yourself to be bored seems to be the... That's kind of where creativity bubbles up.

Chris Williamson 6:39 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 6:40 Right? You kind of allow yourself to be bored, and you allow yourself to kind of just have, have that kind of, um,

Jimmy Carr 6:46 space.

Chris Williamson 6:47 I think it's very difficult to white-knuckle creativity. I'm aware that you are someone who has quite a sort of, uh, structured creative process, but I would imagine that if you look at the absolute big winners that you've come up with, they've probably kind of been bestowed from above in a, "Oh, mother of fu... That's it. It's that thing." It's sort of almost divine inspiration that then gets refined in the process.

Jimmy Carr 7:12 Yeah, I think there's something about... Yeah, I don't know about the refining really. I mean, often it's that thing of, like, you're writing on stage because you're in a flow state.

Chris Williamson 7:19 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 7:19 So I started doing a thing a couple of years ago where... Actually, what... It was, I mean, jealousy, really. I was looking at Andrew Schulz, and I was looking at Matt Rife selling out arenas across America, and I was, "How are they... What, what's going on here?"

Chris Williamson 7:31 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 7:31 And then... And, and I know those guys a little bit, and I like them a lot. And, "What's happening?" And they were all doing, putting out crowd work. I was thinking, "Well, I do a lot of crowd work. Wha- But, what? D- Oh, I should do that. Oh, dummy, every day's a school day." So I kind of watched it and started putting out these crowd work videos, and it has grown. I mean-

Chris Williamson 7:51 It's crushing.

Jimmy Carr 7:51 And, and it's also that weird thing of, like, going, "I hadn't realized how much improv I was doing in a show."

Chris Williamson 7:57 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 7:57 It's like 20 minutes a show of stuff we can put out that's unique to that show. And-

Chris Williamson 8:02 That doesn't kill the set, doesn't bank the-

Jimmy Carr 8:03 No, no. Just doesn't, doesn't touch the written material. And it's a lovely thing where, as a comedian, you wanna kind of... I, I s- think about... I'm in the service industry, right? And I, I'm gonna be fined because I, I make something people want. I make them happy. No one remembers what I say, but they remember how I made them feel. And I tell jokes, and I want to turn up suited and booted because it's a proxy for respect, right? You, I respect you, you've paid money, you've come out, you've given me your time and attention. There's noth- there's nothing else. All that we have in life is time and attention, and they've given me that. So I wanna prepare a show and make sure there's like 150 incredible banging lines that are like... And they've been filtered from-

Chris Williamson 8:46 It's lean.

Jimmy Carr 8:46 ... a thousand lines that were okay but not, didn't quite make the cut. And then it's that thing where you go, "And also, I need to hold that space." Well, okay, perform those jokes and then, "Okay, what have we got? Shout out. Anyone got anything? Join in." And it's like... I suppose the analogy wa- would be, it's like doing that kind of improv, it's like watching a magician do real magic because you're doing the thing in real time, and-

Chris Williamson 9:11 It's freestyle rapping.

Jimmy Carr 9:13 Yeah, and it's the, "I wonder how much of..." Chappelle said this thing a while ago, and it really struck with me, of like... He was talking about a bad gig that he had, and, um, Dave does not have many bad gigs, but he was talking about Evel Knievel. He said, "Evil Knievel wasn't paid for the jump. He was paid for the attempt." And I was thinking, "That's a brilliant way of looking at it," because actually how much of what we do as comedians is bravery? How much of it is being paid to... Yeah, there's freedom of speech, but it isn't freedom of consequence. And this fucking lunatic is saying anything. This guy's, "I'm taking all the filters away." And if you think about what friendship is, for me, it's the person you have the least filter with. Again, another thing I got from Modern Wisdom.

Chris Williamson 10:01 I was gonna ask-

Jimmy Carr 10:01 But it's the least-

Chris Williamson 10:02 (laughs) I was gonna-

Jimmy Carr 10:02 ... the least filter.

Chris Williamson 10:03 I was gonna ask you this. I was gonna say-

Jimmy Carr 10:04 This is like a best of episode of Modern Wisdom.

Chris Williamson 10:06 I know. It's really lovely to hear you on other shows, and I wonder how many other people pick up on it. I'm not to say that I'm your intellectual daddy or that the people on this show are. But it's so nice to hear your interpretation of ideas that really mean a lot to me that have maybe the inspiration, consciously or subconsciously, has percolated through. So I'm like, "Fuck, that sounds familiar. Fuck, that's like, that's like a, that's a, that's a work on a Hormozi quote from 2000, 2023 that I-"

Jimmy Carr 10:35 Yeah. And I try and give you props-

Chris Williamson 10:36 Oh, you do.

Jimmy Carr 10:37 ... all the time because it... Yeah, but it is that thing where you go, it's your, your, your friendship group and your, the, the things that you're taking in. I think also, like, for a lot of people, right... I'm in a very privileged position. I'm fully aware of that. I get to know you. I, we get to be friends as well. Um-

Chris Williamson 10:53 If there's a question you want to bring up, we can WhatsApp each other.

Jimmy Carr 10:55 And we get to be friends with George Mackem. There, there, there's a coterie of people that, you know, we know each other, and there's a lot of mutual respect there. And I feel that, and it's, it's lovely. But I think really the sweet source of this show is I think most people that listen to this show have that relationship with you as well. It's just they, they didn't get to go for a steak last night, but they kind of go... Y- you know, they're... I think it's the same thing of going... I think probably most people listening to the show are, like, "Low level a bit concerned about your health at the moment."

Chris Williamson 11:26 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 11:26 Like, 'cause you-

Chris Williamson 11:27 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 11:27 ... you sort of... You don't really talk about yourself that much.

Chris Williamson 11:29 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 11:30 I think the other thing about the show is it's, it's, it's very much about... It's kind of i- It's very dense compared to other podcasts.

Chris Williamson 11:36 I wanted to... Th- th- that was the point I was about to make with regards to your set. And I saw you in Wembley at the second of a matinee, I think, on that evening. I think you'd done two in Wembley that-

Jimmy Carr 11:47 Oh, yeah, one at 7:00, one at 9:30.

Chris Williamson 11:49 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 11:49 One for me, one for the tax man.

Chris Williamson 11:51 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 11:51 That's how, that's how I operate my touring system, two shows a night.

Chris Williamson 11:55 Very good. Um, and it, it... Your set is incredibly lean. There is very little wasted time, including in the warmup, which doesn't exist. And, uh, I realized that if you were to have... When I first started this show-... and still now, just because of my disposition. If you were to have Rogan at one end, which is, uh, information dense but can meander because he likes to vamp and, and chat shit, and then if you were to have Tim Ferriss at the other end, which is in a very sort of structured, it's almost like a Blinkist sort of cut down of something-

Jimmy Carr 12:28 I, well, well I'd even go further. I'd, I'd say to, to the, to the other, uh, absolute extreme, Morgan Housel has a 15-minute podcast that you listen to and go, "I... All right, I need, I need half an hour to process that."

Chris Williamson 12:40 Ye- ye- ye- yes. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 12:40 'Cause it's so dense.

Chris Williamson 12:41 Yeah. Yeah. It's the Almanac of Naval Ravikant of podcasts.

Jimmy Carr 12:44 Yes. He did, he did one the other day which was like, "Oh, just like 15 things I've been thinking about." And after each one you had to kind of pause it and go, "Huh."

Chris Williamson 12:51 I need a day.

Jimmy Carr 12:51 "Right. Okay. Wow."

Chris Williamson 12:53 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's, he's fucking brilliant. So and I think that I sit... You know, I'm a bit more Ferris-pilled than Rogan-pilled, but I like, I like people feeling like, "Huh, that... I really got a lot out of that."

Jimmy Carr 13:02 I, I feel like it's... And I think it's really true of comedians, and I think it's increasingly true in the, in this, in this world, the podcast world, of like you leak. You don't say a lot about yourself on the podcast, but you leak. Like, the, like, who you are, sort of, "Oh, okay, there's like-"

Chris Williamson 13:20 Clues.

Jimmy Carr 13:20 Yeah. There's, there's little clues and it's... You can't hide who you are in this kind of long form for long.

Chris Williamson 13:25 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 13:25 You know, there's no pretense. It's really... it's great.

Chris Williamson 13:28 Uh, just on your idea around, uh, boredom being, uh, an, uh, insights, uh, creator, this beautiful work on, uh, the magic you are looking for is in the work you're avoiding, there's a twist on that. The answers you are looking for is in the silence you're avoiding.

Jimmy Carr 13:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:46 I fucking love that. The answers you are looking for is in the silence you're avoiding. You need fewer inputs, not more.

Jimmy Carr 13:52 I'd, I'd agree with that. Yeah. That's really, uh... It's very, it's, it's interesting that thing of like, 'cause it's two British guys, so we feel like we should apologize for saying anything deep.

Chris Williamson 14:00 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 14:00 Like there's, there's like, there's a natural, uh-

Chris Williamson 14:03 Don't get ahead of yourself.

Jimmy Carr 14:04 George, George Mac had a great line yesterday. I went for a walk with George and he was talking about, uh, you know, Britain's very cynical, uh, America's full of bullshit. Which I thought-

Chris Williamson 14:14 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 14:14 ... such a great kind of... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:15 It is. Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 14:16 Yeah. Okay.

Chris Williamson 14:16 In, in, in England you need to be a- aware of the cynics and avoid them, and in America you need to be aware of the bullshit artists and avoid them. And both of them are applauded. You know, the cynics are praised by most of British culture and the bullshit-

Jimmy Carr 14:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:28 ... artists are, are praised by most of American culture. But yeah, I, uh, I think I've realized the sort of people that I like, and I think it's why me and you have become friends, I think it's why George's friends, Mosy, Bryan Callen, you know, like this little whatever we wanna call it, squad of degenerate people trying to work out how the world works. I like earnest people. I like people that are earnest. And my working definition of earnest is the bravery to take your emotions seriously.

Jimmy Carr 14:55 Yeah. I think you can be... I think there's a, there's a sweet spot between being very, uh, sincere but you don't need to be serious. You could, you, you kind of... you're real, but it's not, you know. And it's very... I, I, I always think that thing of like, it's very easy live as well to, to switch. Um, you know, 'cause there's slightly a code switch thing going on where you go, "Well, on stage I'm there to do a job. We're in a theater, this is the space, you're there to be funny." But occasionally now, and I'll allow myself to put it out on social media as well, if something comes up that's heartfelt or, or-

Chris Williamson 15:28 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 15:28 ... or beautiful. Sometimes you answer a question seriously. Sometimes you just go sort of, "Oh, someone needs it." Uh, and so there's-

Chris Williamson 15:33 I've seen a few of those.

Jimmy Carr 15:34 There's a couple of those moments, like in a show where... And, and I feel like I need to earn it. I feel like, yeah, if I do 20 minutes of fastballs, then I can... there could be one nice moment-

Chris Williamson 15:45 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 15:45 ... where you make a point. But I... but no one wants that. No one wants to come to a comedy show and have someone, uh, wag a finger at them and talk about, you know, being progressive. It's, it's that thing where you go, "Okay, I'll be super funny," and then I feel like my audience will go, "Okay. He's, he's made a good point there." And nothing overly controversial, you know? It's not like, uh... but it's like that the... it's really interesting that thing of, um, f- I don't know whether it's an age thing, but feeling like I can do that a little bit more now.

Chris Williamson 16:11 Yeah. There's certainly an extra kind of credibility that comes with age that I'm, I'm feeling too. Uh, you look at Peterson and he's got this sort of patriarch persona, right? He's got sort of the gray hair, he's got the wizened fingers that look like a fucking druid. And you think, "Yeah, he's able to, you know, talk to you about the deeper meaning of life and stuff like that." But if you wear your cap backwards and walking in Crocs, really, you've capped your upper bound on how much of this you can be taken seriously when you talk about. You know what I mean? So I think-

Jimmy Carr 16:43 I don't know, because I think it's much more, um, it's much more relatable. What will people listen to? That... Like, it's always that thing of like... I wrote a book a couple of years ago, um, which is kind of a biography/self-help. And it was like, it's that thing of going... It's, um, Eckhart Tolle for, for dummies. It's, it's... 'Cause there's a lot of people that love that kind of stuff or would love that kind of stuff, but they're not gonna read that kind of stuff. It's like the- they're just not gonna find time in their day.

Chris Williamson 17:08 It's not sufficiently accessible.

Jimmy Carr 17:09 Yeah. And it is... it's tough. It's tough to kind of, uh, to get through because that stuff is actually... it's, um, it's sincere and it's very serious.

Chris Williamson 17:19 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 17:20 And I think actually you sometimes do need to sugar that pill. I think comedy does that. I mean, uh, Peter McGraw, who I think you've had... have you had on the show, Peter McGraw?

Chris Williamson 17:27 No. No.

Jimmy Carr 17:27 Um, so he's got the theory of benign violation. I was chatting to Joe about this yesterday, the idea of like, um, uh, violations being, uh, uh, anything that, um, messes with the norm, what you were expe- expectations-

Chris Williamson 17:39 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 17:40 ... of life.

Chris Williamson 17:40 Pattern interruption.

Jimmy Carr 17:41 So something terrible happens in the world and you make it benign by making a joke about it. And so this idea that jokes cannot be offensive because there's a, um, there's a... by making it a joke, you're putting it in this kind of sacred space.

Chris Williamson 17:56 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 17:56 Where you're kind of-

Chris Williamson 17:57 It's like, kind of like alchemy.

Jimmy Carr 17:58 Yeah. Your, your, your process... Well, I often think like if someone's offended by a joke, I, I, I, I fucked up. My m- I didn't use strong enough juju, uh, not enough magic on that.

Chris Williamson 18:08 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 18:08 That wasn't funny enough to make it worthwhile for them to go to that place.

Chris Williamson 18:13 I asked, I asked Schultz this same question. I said, "Are there any jokes that shouldn't be told?"... because there- can you think of a joke that shouldn't be told? And is-

Jimmy Carr 18:20 No, saying- saying something is too serious to joke about is like saying, "Oh, that- that disease is actually too serious to treat." Or saying to a journalist, "Oh, we can't report on this story, it's horrible." Like, you'd never dream of saying that, and you go, "Well, I feel sort of the same way about comedy." It's all sort of fair game.

Chris Williamson 18:36 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 18:36 It's a question of, how funny could you be?

Chris Williamson 18:38 Well, that was Andrew's- Andrew's-

Jimmy Carr 18:38 How- how skilled could you be i- in doing that?

Chris Williamson 18:42 Andrew's response was, when I said, "Is there anything... Is there a joke so abhorrent that you shouldn't make it?" And his immediate response was, "Is it funny?"

Jimmy Carr 18:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:52 And he's like, "If it's funny, you can get away with whatever you want."

Jimmy Carr 18:55 Yeah, I think so. The thing... It's not even getting away with it though. The- the idea of like, I don't buy into the-

Chris Williamson 19:00 Get away with.

Jimmy Carr 19:00 Uh, yeah, on the pu- the punching up, punching down, d- I don't buy into that because you, in order to buy into that, you have to buy into, um, the Frankfurt School and, uh, Foucault and Derrida and Lyotard and all of that and the idea that power dynamics and that cultural, any cultural, uh, work is a demonstration of power. Uh, and I- I, frankly, I don't... I mean, I was- I was kind of brought up in that. That's when I was at university. That was all, um, post-modernism was- was thriving. And-

Chris Williamson 19:32 Sexy the first time around.

Jimmy Carr 19:34 Yeah, and it was... No, well, it was- it was very, very interesting and valuable in the lab. And very much like COVID, it escaped the lab.

Chris Williamson 19:44 Great in theory, horrible in practice.

Jimmy Carr 19:45 And it's had horrific-

Chris Williamson 19:47 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 19:47 ... effects. It's, ah, it's out of the lab. It's- it's-

Chris Williamson 19:49 And the- the R naught number keeps on rising.

Jimmy Carr 19:51 ... it's- it's, uh, 28 days later but with, uh, but with a- a meme, but with a-

Chris Williamson 19:55 An idea.

Jimmy Carr 19:55 ... an idea, and I don't- I don't buy into that punching up, punching down because it's a... Y- y- in order to be punching down, you'll be looking down on someone. I'm not looking down on anyone.

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Chris Williamson 20:57 I heard a quote of yours, "If you're going to have an interesting life, you can't have all of the other interesting lives you would have had."

Jimmy Carr 21:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:04 What's that mean to you?

Jimmy Carr 21:06 Well, I suppose it's that thing of, like, it's incredible the things you won't do. Like, when you think about, like, the potential that we all have, like, we've all... We're all privileged in a sense, right, 'cause we all get one life, and then we get given, you know, different gifts, right? So there's no... There can be no equality because we're all born different, right? So it's that thing of going... And it's not better, worse, i- i- all the same, it's just different. Everyone's kinda different. And I think that, for me, that... The idea of going, um, you can, you can't have an easy life and a great character. You can't... You've got to kind of go out there and- and decide what you want, that's the first great adventure. And then getting it is the second great adventure. So, it sort of speaks to that thing of, like, wishing wells work. But they don't work when... It's not the magic. The magic is you going, "Oh, what would I wish for? What do I want being the fundamental g-" And, like, if you know what you want, that's incredibly powerful. Most people don't. Mo- most desires are mimetic desires, and you get into René Girard and the idea of going, "Well, I want that watch 'cause he's got that watch, and I want that car 'cause he's got that car, and I'd love that girlfriend." It's like, how many guys are dating girls that are incredibly hot, they look amazing, very impressive, and they don't even like the guy? It's like... It's a weird flex.

Chris Williamson 22:31 Yeah. They're- they're in love with what other people think about them-

Jimmy Carr 22:35 Mm-hmm. It's that-

Chris Williamson 22:36 ... by having that.

Jimmy Carr 22:36 It's that Will Storr thing, that Status Game book, which is again, I mean, it's just... He's such a genius writer.

Chris Williamson 22:42 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 22:42 Uh, I love him. He's got a new Substack, by the way, all about storytelling.

Chris Williamson 22:45 His new book-

Jimmy Carr 22:46 Wonderful. Check him out.

Chris Williamson 22:46 ... he comes out this week on the show, the-

Jimmy Carr 22:48 Oh, he's-

Chris Williamson 22:49 ... uh, A Story Is A Deal.

Jimmy Carr 22:50 Yeah. It's wonderful.

Chris Williamson 22:51 He's come out... He's- he's- he's an outstanding, outstanding human.

Jimmy Carr 22:54 But that idea of, like, you choose what status game you play.

Chris Williamson 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 22:58 You know, so- so what status game? And- and again, another thing from Modern Wisdom, that idea of going, well, there's- there's fuck you money, and there's fuck you freedom-

Chris Williamson 23:05 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 23:05 ... and there's fuck you family.

Chris Williamson 23:06 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 23:07 I real- I mean, that really I took to heart as going, "Oh, that's very interesting." And the idea of going, "What are the things that you're not gonna do?" Because we live in a world that rewards specialization. And it strikes me that our whole school system is like geared wrong to get you to do all the different things.

Chris Williamson 23:22 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 23:23 You know? And- and really, you know, young kids are like, "What are you gonna get from being... Okay, you're terrible at maths, but we're gonna get you up to a C grade?"

Chris Williamson 23:32 Keep learning. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 23:33 Yeah. Because what the world needs is someone who's all right at maths? No! It's like-

Chris Williamson 23:39 Semi- semi-competent at maths.

Jimmy Carr 23:40 No! But- but you're brilliant at English. Well, fucking lean into that, spend all your time doing that. You know, specialize, especially in- as- as the world changes, I think leaning into, you know, what... It's that you often get... I don't know what it is about age or my position in life, but I often get asked like, "Oh, you know, what do you think I should do?"

Chris Williamson 23:56 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 23:57 And it's that thing of like, "What do you think about all the time?" That's the best indicator.

Chris Williamson 24:00 There's a... At Georgie's birthday this year in Austin, Dicky, one of the guys, came up with a fucking wonderful... I haven't written about it yet, but it'll be in a newsletter soon, it's a great idea, he calls them shower thoughts. And, uh, the shower being one of the very few places reliably that people don't have some sort of external input going on.

Jimmy Carr 24:19 Right.

Chris Williamson 24:20 And he said, "You can tell what you care about by what you think about in the shower."... tell what you care about by what you think about in the shower. When there's no other inputs going on and you're in this liminal space between being unclean and then drying yourself off with a towel, what do you think about? Where does your mind go? Like, that's what you care about.

Jimmy Carr 24:40 Yeah, I think expanding that space to, uh, 20 minutes, an hour-

Chris Williamson 24:47 The answers you're looking for are in the silence you're avoiding.

Jimmy Carr 24:49 ... that kind- being alone with your thoughts is a- that's a- that's a lovely thing.

Chris Williamson 24:53 How do you think about that? Because you're spending all of this time on the road, airports, c- could watch a video, can listen to a podcast, can do the whatever thing. Ho- how do you try and purposefully, uh, create that space when you're-

Jimmy Carr 25:11 I suppo-

Chris Williamson 25:11 ... busy all the time?

Jimmy Carr 25:12 I suppose that thing of, like, going, if I do eight shows a week or, well, it'll be more than that on the American tour, but it's normally eight shows a week. So, it's that thing of, like, going, "Well, I wanna try new jokes at every show." Uh, it's quite sort of stoic, really. I mean, it's just like that thing of, like, going, "Well, there's..." I always think how hard you work is important, but what you work on is essential. Like, that's the- the- the key thing. You can work so hard on bullshit and distract yourself with it. And, like, my job's quite easy because it- it's easy to analyze and to- to pinpoint what's the thing that makes a difference. And it's- for me, it's jokes. It's the love language. It's the- the model. And the more that I spend time with them, you sort of go- it's sort of like time in the gym, I suppose. So when you're, uh, thinking about nothing and letting your mind wander, that's the- that's when it comes up. Or you're listening to something and it's outside of your purview. You're not listening to comedy, you're listening to someone talk about, uh, economics or politics or, um, philosophy, and you're then thinking, "Well, could I make a joke of that?" So everything's within- you're seeing it through that- the lens of-

Chris Williamson 26:21 Gotta be very careful. If I'm- if you are the average of the five podcasts you listen to the most, you gotta be careful, 'cause that's gonna shape your- if you listen to too much Gary Stevenson, you're gonna be talking about Marxist economics and stuff like that.

Jimmy Carr 26:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:31 Be very careful what sort of al- algorithm holes you fall down in- in particular.

Jimmy Carr 26:34 Yeah. Good, right?

Chris Williamson 26:36 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 26:37 Good. Be careful.

Chris Williamson 26:39 How do people know what they should be doing with their lives? People coming up to you and asking you for earnest, you know, sincere life advice. How do you work out what someone should be doing with their life?

Jimmy Carr 26:47 I don't know. I mean, it- it's a- it's very odd, uh, to be... L- I- I'm- I'm quite, uh, taken with simulation theory.

Chris Williamson 26:57 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 26:58 Um, because I don't think it's true. I don't think we are in a matrix and this is a video game. But if we are, I've definitely got a cheat code, right? Where I get to be a- a touring international comedian with a- you know, some lovely kids and a great life and great friends. Like, that's an incredibly sort of privileged position. I think thinking about the world as- as if simulation theory is real and this is all a simulation is very interesting, 'cause if you imagine life as a game, what are you solving for? What- what are your metrics? And I think when you really kind of analyze it, I went, "Well, if- if this was gonna be a scoreboard at the end and you're only really competing with yourself, there's nothing in being better than anyone else. There's only, um, honor in being better than yourself last year." So the idea of going, "Well, what would be the important things? What would be the..." You know. It's- and it's that thing of you go, it's not the, um, the- the achievement so much as the, uh, process. Like, enjoying the process seems to be it. So that thing of, like, I- you know, what- what should people be doing? It's not for me to say. It's all- life is self-assignment.

Chris Williamson 28:07 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 28:07 It's that thing of, like, what are you happy doing? What- where's the- where's the flow state for you? What's the thing that brings you joy? It's not even, like... The 10,000 hours, I slightly think misses a trick, because although I buy, yeah, you've got to work really hard and really long to get good at anything, to get competent at anything is hard. But what could you stand to do for that long? Because if it's- I mean, this is Naval. I- if it's play to you and work to them, you're gonna win 100% of the time.

Chris Williamson 28:36 Yeah, much better ques- uh, uh, to build on that, what looks like play to you but looks like work to everybody else is, what pain do you want in your life? This is Mark Manson's twist on it. He says, "Any pursuit, no matter how existentially aligned, will regularly come with a huge side order of pain." Like, it doesn't matter how much you love doing comedy. If you want to be a comedian, that means that you need to spend an awfully long time writing jokes that never see the light of day-

Jimmy Carr 29:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:03 ... apart from one set where no one laughs. You go-

Jimmy Carr 29:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:06 "Fuck, I spent ages on that."

Jimmy Carr 29:08 No, no. For- forget that. You got to enjoy taxi rides to the airport.

Chris Williamson 29:12 Correct. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 29:12 You have to enjoy the whole thing.

Chris Williamson 29:14 Correct. Correct. Correct.

Jimmy Carr 29:15 And- and as soon as you go, "Oh, no, no, I just like the bit where I'm on stage," d- w- n- no. It's not- that's not how life is.

Chris Williamson 29:22 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 29:22 You have to take the whole package.

Chris Williamson 29:24 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 29:25 Um-

Chris Williamson 29:25 Uh, James- James Clear has a fucking unbelievable take where he talks about if you want the life but not the lifestyle, you guarantee disappointment.

Jimmy Carr 29:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:35 Like, if you're going to pursue this outcome but you're not prepared to do what it takes to get it. Okay, you wanna be a touring musician. Sounds fantastic. You need to spend probably between five and 10 years just learning the instrument. This is before you get to perform. You don't really get to perform on stage for that long.

Jimmy Carr 29:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:50 And then when you start doing that, the first 10 tours that you do are maybe gonna be in someone's borrowed van, in the back of a van. You're not gonna have enough money for hotels. You're gonna be playing to 100 people. No one's gonna care about you. You're not gonna have any money. You're not gonna know if it's gonna work. You have no promise of glory on the other side. You're gonna be wracked with self-doubt, constantly uncertain. The whole experience is gonna be tarnished in this, like, weird liminal, like, discontent about whether this is actually the right path to be on. And then, maybe you reach a tiny bit of escape velocity and perhaps get toward...... micro notoriety. Okay, and then we maybe get to a manager, and then we start to get looked after. Yeah. That is the process of becoming remotely great at anything.

Jimmy Carr 30:37 Yeah. I always think that thing of, like, with young comics it's quite easy because you go ... If you're going out 300 nights a year to do open mics, it's kind of the same life as playing arenas. It's not vastly different. You're sort- going out and telling jokes-

Chris Williamson 30:50 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 30:51 ... you go out and do a show.

Chris Williamson 30:52 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 30:52 Like, where you go to and how ... Whether it's an audience of 50 people or 15,000, it really is a very similar, uh, process.

Chris Williamson 31:00 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 31:01 So it's g- i- if you enjoy that, if you love it, then great.

Chris Williamson 31:04 Uh, good question on, um, what should I be doing with my life, you said before. Uh, if people were making a movie about your life, what would the key scenes be?

Jimmy Carr 31:16 Well, it's a weird thing actually where, like, the cancellation episode, I was thinking, like, whenever you get canceled or ... Not canceled, dragged. Whenever you get, like, a, a tough time, it's like if my life was a movie this would be the best episode.

Chris Williamson 31:30 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 31:30 If my, if my life was a, like, a ten part on HBO, they'd, they'd go, oh

Chris Williamson 31:34 Dedicate an entire episode to that.

Jimmy Carr 31:36 Yeah. "You saw the episode where-"

Chris Williamson 31:37 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 31:37 "... he said the terrible thing and people got very upset." I mean, always think you've got to rightsize it with, with, uh, you know, there's different types of cancellation. Like, oftentimes it's, "I told a joke and some people didn't like it."

Chris Williamson 31:48 Wah!

Jimmy Carr 31:49 Okay. Yeah. It's like, eh...

Chris Williamson 31:51 Wah!

Jimmy Carr 31:51 Who cares? There's a, um ... The patron saint of comedy is Saint Lawrence. And Saint Lawrence was a-

Chris Williamson 31:57 Your, your industry has a patron saint?

Jimmy Carr 31:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:00 Oh.

Jimmy Carr 32:00 And he's a third-century martyr. And he was a early Christian, obviously. And, uh, Saint Lawrence was, uh, condemned to death, and they burnt him alive. Uh, so they put him on, like, a, a, a metal, kind of ... I don't know, like, I don't know what you would call it.

Chris Williamson 32:18 Like a fucking skillet. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 32:19 Yeah. Like a big skillet.

Chris Williamson 32:20 Skilleted. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 32:21 And they s- and they, they cooked him.

Chris Williamson 32:24 Okay.

Jimmy Carr 32:25 Uh, and he said, after ten minutes of being burnt alive, uh, "Turn me over. This side's done." And that level of bravery and fuck you-

Chris Williamson 32:40 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 32:40 ... is very inspirational. It's like that thing of, like, going, "I- i- it's almost like Stoicism to the extreme." Like, the what ... We, we ha- we can't control the world. We can have a strong influence, but we can't control anything, and shit is gonna happen to you, and how you react to that is life.

Chris Williamson 32:58 Was Plato the guy that was forced to be killed by the government? Was that him?

Jimmy Carr 33:02 What drank poison?

Chris Williamson 33:03 Yes.

Jimmy Carr 33:03 I think that was Socrates, wasn't it?

Chris Williamson 33:04 Socrates. Thank you.

Jimmy Carr 33:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:06 Um, there's a great story about him, uh, apparently very, like, big fuck you energy. I think I need to channel my inner Socrates a little bit more. And th- the way that it worked, when they condemned him during the trial he was saying, "You think that you're punishing me..." Like, the, y- you know, it was a, a jury of, like, 150 people.

Jimmy Carr 33:30 Right.

Chris Williamson 33:30 This was how much... And typically what you're supposed to do is be groveling.

Jimmy Carr 33:34 Mm.

Chris Williamson 33:34 Socrates is supposed to come up and, you know, b- b- bring the crying wife, bring the crying children. Do... He didn't do any of that.

Jimmy Carr 33:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:40 And he started chastising the jury and he said, "You all think that you're punishing me, but you know that I'm an innocent man. So really, you're punishing yourselves. There's nothing that you can do to me because I know that I haven't done the things..." He clearly, whatever it was, disturbing the youth.

Jimmy Carr 33:58 Yeah. I would say, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:58 You know, the sort of frivolous f-

Jimmy Carr 34:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:00 ... claim that, accusation. And he gets sentenced to death, and he's supposed to drink-

Jimmy Carr 34:07 Hemlock.

Chris Williamson 34:08 Hemlock. And he's back at the cell and all of his family's around him and his friends are around him, and the way that it worked, there was not really a time limit on when you had to drink the hemlock. His friends said to him, "You know, you don't need to, you don't need to drink this. You can spend some more time around your friends-"

Jimmy Carr 34:27 Right.

Chris Williamson 34:27 "... and your family. You can..." You know, like st- so you can, like, play the system and drag this out.

Jimmy Carr 34:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 34:31 And he just drank it in front of them, immediately. I just love how much of a fuck you it was. Like, "You all think that you're condemning me, but really you're condemning yourselves. You think you're punishing me, but you're actually punishing yourselves. There's nothing that you can do to me." A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about LMNT before, and that's because I'm frankly dependent on it. For the last three years I've started my morning every single day with LMNT. LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. Each grab-and-go stick pack contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other junk. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing your brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. It's basically a magic elixir, and this orange flavor in a cold glass of water is how I've started every single day for over three years, and I can genuinely feel the difference when I take it versus when I don't. Best of all, they've got a no-questions-asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they give you your money back, and you don't even need to return the box. Plus, they offer free shipping within the US. Right now you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to DrinkLMTN.com/ModernWisdom. That's DrinkLMTN.com/ModernWisdom.

Jimmy Carr 35:57 Do people want more time, or do people want more unique experiences?

Chris Williamson 36:02 It's the same.

Jimmy Carr 36:02 I would argue that, like, the great gift of being a comedian is you see stuff, and you see it when you've got kids, right? Kids are seeing stuff for the first time and they're excited. And what I think a lot of people are doing past a certain age, I don't know what the age is, but I'm gonna say 40, you're remembering stuff. You've made that drive before, you've seen sunsets before, you're kind of remembering stuff so then your mind is kind of filling it in and you're not in wonder.And I think a lot of what comedy is c- certainly that kind of the observational element of it, is, uh, uh, whether it's linguistic or, or, uh, observation more generally, is you're- you're really recognizing stuff. You're really-

Chris Williamson 36:40 Trying to see things for the first time.

Jimmy Carr 36:41 ... you're really sort of seeing things in a- in a- in a way that- that, um, an artist would. You're- you're trying to see it for what it is.

Chris Williamson 36:47 If I'd never observed this before, what would I notice?

Jimmy Carr 36:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:51 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 36:51 And- and also that unique experience of, like, touring around, seeing different places. It's such a unique experience.

Chris Williamson 36:55 Well, literally, you know, when you ... I've done 20 shows in my life, 20, 30 sh-

Jimmy Carr 37:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:01 ... 30 shows in my life. I remember a bunch of different scenarios, there was a nine-year-old girl sat in the f- fourth row of the show that we did in Sydney, and she asked this amazing question, and, uh, James had been dropping the C bomb throughout all of his warmup act, and mine- mine was-

Jimmy Carr 37:16 Wow.

Chris Williamson 37:16 ... a little bit, you know, there's fingerin' jokes and stuff like that, and I a- up, I was like, "Parents, I'm so sorry for, like, what's happened to your nine-year-old daughter."

Jimmy Carr 37:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:23 She was like, "It's all right. She's Australian," and everyone broke out laughing. I'm like, "I'm- I can't ... " Until Parkinson's comes and rips my fucking, like, consciousness out of my head, I'm not gonna forget that. So you have, you're right-

Jimmy Carr 37:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:37 ... the two ways that human memory works is novelty and intensity.

Jimmy Carr 37:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:41 If it's something that's new or if it's something that's really emotionally salient, which you could just look at as another form of novelty, right?

Jimmy Carr 37:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:46 The intensity thing. So, uh, someone will make a drive to work. They've been at this job for four years, and you're like, "You've made that drive there a thousand times and back a thousand times."

Jimmy Carr 37:57 No memory.

Chris Williamson 37:58 But it's been condensed down into one journey.

Jimmy Carr 38:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:01 So, uh, apart from that time when it was icy and the guy next to you skidded and, "Oh, nearly," that's novelty and intensity. And you go, "Fuck, I remember that one, and I remember the first day I went to work."

Jimmy Carr 38:10 Yes.

Chris Williamson 38:10 "And I remember when the road was closed and I got in late and I did whatever," but unless you purposefully inject novelty, and this is one of the sort of ruthless double-edged swords to routine, which is a lot of the gains in life are to be made through being- being structured and routinized and having habits-

Jimmy Carr 38:26 Well, with interesting finding that balance of going, like, 'cause there is that thing of, like, you could go somewhere different on vacation every year, or you could go back to the same place, 'cause what are you solving for? Are you making new memories, or do you want relaxation? You know, what- what's the, what's the, what are you trying to get out of this? What do you want?

Chris Williamson 38:43 I-

Jimmy Carr 38:43 You're back to that fundamental question.

Chris Williamson 38:45 I think this is one of the reasons why, uh, as people get older, their openness to experience goes down, because the assumption is, "I've been on loads of holidays. I know where's good and I know where's bad," and the likelihood, as somebody that's been on lots of holidays-

Jimmy Carr 38:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:00 ... of beating the best one, or even getting into the top 10%, is way tougher in my sixth decade than it is in my second.

Jimmy Carr 39:08 Can I tell you about my reversing, like, that thing of, like, trying to go against the grain of what normally happens? So, serotonin and dopamine, right? Both very important, and we normally get our, uh, serotonin from old music, people listen to old music, they listen to the stuff they liked when they were in their teens and 20s-

Chris Williamson 39:27 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 39:28 ... and they listen to, and they watch new movies. Dopamine, new s- new stories, where is this going? What's gonna happen? I kind of changed it round. I listened to that Quentin Tarantino book, the Cinemas to Speculation, and went, "I haven't seen any of these '70s movies," or maybe I saw them when I was a kid, but I haven't seen them for years or whatever. I'm gonna watch '70s movies and listen to new music.

Chris Williamson 39:45 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 39:46 And it's a really, it's really fun, a really fun way to kind of change things and-

Chris Williamson 39:49 How does that affect you?

Jimmy Carr 39:50 Well, I think that thing of, like, going, being slightly out of your, like, new m- music's really interesting 'cause it's- it's such a pleasurable thing to listen to new stuff, and old movies, I think the '70s was the high point for movies. I th- I don't think movies go, 'cause it was like there was an industry there, but it wasn't fully, I don't know, it, like, the, it wasn't blockbusters yet. Like Jaws was the first-

Chris Williamson 40:11 Still experimental.

Jimmy Carr 40:12 Yeah. There was, uh, there was auteurs and the- the suits were giving the best directors the money to go and do the thing, go and do their thing.

Chris Williamson 40:20 'Cause we don't have a, uh, established process of how this should be done, so we can allow you to have a few more degrees of freedom.

Jimmy Carr 40:26 Yeah. It was, it was, I don't know, it was just a- a wonderful time. I kind of feel like it's very analogous to how comedy is now. Comedy's really, uh, having a moment culturally-

Chris Williamson 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 40:37 ... um, that's very, very special, and I don't know what that is. I, maybe it's, uh, uh, authenticity or there- there's something about, um, uh, uh, people wanting to be part of ... a tribe? I- I- I sort of think, right, so in our culture, there was a fire and we gathered round the fire and we did this, spoke, right? And then there was the radio, and we gathered round the radio and we listened to it and chatted, and then there was the TV, gathered round, we watched the shows and t- talked about them the next day. And then suddenly, it was the phone, and I'm over there and you're in your room and it's, we're kinda isolated. And I think that thing about coming out to comedy-

Chris Williamson 41:15 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 41:15 ... or going out to festivals or going and seeing stuff is, it's my (clears throat) , I suppose, play. We are playing creatures. Someone wrote a book about this in um, I think it was the late '30s, about human beings as a playing animal.

Chris Williamson 41:32 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 41:32 Like play being upstream of cooperation, and cooperation being the secret sauce of humanity, and the idea of, like, think about what people are interested in, anyone you know, anyone you speak to, like, "What are you excited about?" "Oh, well, I'm watching the game on Saturday." You're watching people play. "Oh, I'm gonna go and see the- the- the concert. Uh, The Killers are playing live." "Oh, I'm gonna go and see them play." "Oh, I'm gonna go and see that comedian." "Okay, he's just a guy playing on stage."

Chris Williamson 41:57 Ah.

Jimmy Carr 41:57 "I'm gonna go and see, uh, a musical." I mean, uh, whatever you're into, you'll, you want to see people playing, and what is this conversation? It's- it's kinda playing, right? It's curiosity-

Chris Williamson 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 42:08 ... and it's, you're kinda with, sort of sorting out ideas and picking little things and strands and it's playful.

Chris Williamson 42:13 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 42:13 And it's, you sort of, it's- it's incredibly important there. I love that, um, George Bernard Shaw line, uh, that we don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing.

Chris Williamson 42:24 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 42:24 And there's a wonderful thing in, um, my privileged life as a comedian where I'm a grown man but I also get to be in that mind space while I'm playing all the time.

Chris Williamson 42:34 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 42:35 And the audience come out and they- they bought a ticket-... and just, I mean, it's very self-selecting, the audience. Like, you'd, you'd have a tough time having a tough gig 'cause 1,000 people have bought a ticket to see you-

Chris Williamson 42:45 They wanna see you win.

Jimmy Carr 42:46 ... and they came to play. No, well, there's an illusion, isn't there? The illusion is, um, and that your ego could get taken away. Like, "Oh, I'm on stage. It's me. I'm performing." Y- you don't see the audience. The audience are performing. I saw it last year, I went to see Taylor Swift live in Wembley last year, and it was transcendent. And she was amazing, right? A great songwriter, an incredible musician, wonderful performer. She was great. The audience were next level. Like, it was girls and their mums and their best friends, like, quite a lot of this action. They knew every word to every song. They were... 'Cause I was watching her and I was also kinda watching the crowd and watching that... It was performative.

Chris Williamson 43:32 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 43:33 And then you sorta... I was kinda watching it and going, "Oh, yeah, well, in my audience, people don't..." They wouldn't laugh if they saw the clip on their phone on the bus, you know? Or if, you know, sometimes people will post under an Instagram, you know, you put out some heckle video and they go, "Not funny." Yeah, but you watched it with the sound off and the subtitles taking a shit.

Chris Williamson 43:51 It's like saying, "I saw a clip of Taylor Swift live and I didn't sing along."

Jimmy Carr 43:55 Yeah. Well, you're not singing along when you see the clip, but, but when you're there, it's permission, it's the, the, I suppose that thing with like, uh, you see Bruce Springsteen live. "How you doing?" "Yeah." If you, someone in Starbucks says it, you sound psychotic.

Chris Williamson 44:10 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 44:11 It's, it's great, you allow yourself permission to be in that space where you can perform, it's wonderful.

Chris Williamson 44:16 Collective effervescence is a wonderful way to get out of your own head. And yeah, I think, um, to fly the flag for my old industry, the demise of nightclubs that don't require quite as much effort, that aren't as rare, that allow you to sort of be in that space and see a DJ. There's just, you know, some local DJ that plays great songs and they're songs that everybody knows-

Jimmy Carr 44:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:34 ... and you get to dance together. You think like, "Fuck," like, how increasingly rare is it that you're in a room with a bunch of people who you both do and don't know, all feeling a kind of vibe that's together? And yeah, maybe the, the-

Jimmy Carr 44:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:48 ... the resurgence that you're seeing with, with comedy, with live stuff, even the sort of things that I do are, you know, like more like a Petersoniany style lecture come whatever with a few fingering jokes. Um, there's, there's something going on there.

Jimmy Carr 45:00 Well, I wonder what people are looking for when they, uh... Our mutual friend, uh, Alain de Botton, uh, you know, he's got The School of Life, which is ultimately, they were running services on a Su- I think they still do, run services on a Sunday, which is sort of church-

Chris Williamson 45:14 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 45:15 ... for people that can't, they can't sort of believe in, uh, a deity, but they still wanna go and... 'Cause I, you know, church works-

Chris Williamson 45:22 I believe in a Alain.

Jimmy Carr 45:24 But, but church works not because God is happy, but because people are coming together and, you know, they're kinda, they're-

Chris Williamson 45:30 Uh, you've, you'll have heard me talk about this Latin Mass thing, which is kicking off at the moment. You know this?

Jimmy Carr 45:34 What, people are going to Latin Mass? Well, I've often said Vatican II was the, the biggest mistake in, in the church's history. Because what they did was they, they translated... It goes back to Iain McGilchrist, you know, have you read that, The Mastery and the Elegancy?

Chris Williamson 45:48 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 45:48 The left brain/right brain thing. So, the incredible thing about the left brain is it, it, it orders things and makes them, uh, makes lists and it's very, uh, uh, we live in a left brain world.

Chris Williamson 45:58 Procedural,

Narrator 45:59 certain...

Jimmy Carr 45:59 And the only thing more impressive than that is the right brain. The idea that it can see the Gesamtbild, it can see the whole thing. And you go, the problem with Vatican II is they took religion and they, they made it, they translated it into your local language, and you could just go, "Oh yeah, s- s- doesn't make sense. That can't happen. You can't come back from the dead." It's crazy. But before that, when it was all in Latin and there was a lot of incense, it was, you were just in awe. So it had the same effect of, like, standing in nature.

Chris Williamson 46:27 And it just... Do you know what it is? I, I fucking wish it wasn't this, but the more that I think about what it is people want to take away from life, it's all just vibes. It all just comes back to vibes. So what's the vibe? What was the vibe of his show? Can you remember any of the one liner... I think he did a, think he did a joke about, about roadkill at, at one point.

Jimmy Carr 46:44 Can't... Yeah, no, can't remember anything. And then-

Chris Williamson 46:46 And I... He did, he definitely did. He gave this really nice answer, he gave this earnest answer to this guy about the s- s- something, something, something, something and, uh, but I remember the vibe.

Jimmy Carr 46:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:55 Vibe was qu- it was sort of relaxed. It was g- like, intense actually, it was kinda quick. Um, and, and-

Jimmy Carr 47:00 Is, is it Maya Angelou? Uh, "People don't remember what you say, but they remember how you feel." How you make them feel.

Chris Williamson 47:05 I gotta, I gotta round out that, that movie thing, you mentioned movies before. And, uh, two questions about, uh, people ask, "What should I be doing with my life?" Um, if your life was a movie, what would the key scenes be? I think that's important when you're looking backward. But a much badder one, if your life was a movie and people were watching up to this point, what would the audience be screaming at the screen telling you to do with your life? What would they be just, "It's fucking obvious. Leave the job. Leave the r-"

Jimmy Carr 47:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:37 "... you mean, get like, it's your brother, it's the, you know, the, the fucking killer's hiding in the cupboard," whatever it might be. What would the audience watching the movie of your life be screaming at the screen telling you to do? And I think it's a very orthogonal way to look at, "Huh, I already know the answer of what I should be doing. I'm just scared of making the commitment and having the conversation."

Jimmy Carr 48:02 Yeah. I, I, I, I waited a long time. I didn't... Uh, I had kids very late in life and it was because I was waiting to feel like a man. And obviously, I had it just backwards. It's a, it's... 'Cause it's a, it's not a noun, it's a verb. See, you have kids and then suddenly you feel... I hold a kid and you feel fucking manly. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:21 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 48:21 This is fucking great. And then you don't know who you're gonna be as a,

Jimmy Carr 48:26 as a dad.

Chris Williamson 48:27 How has fatherhood changed you?

Jimmy Carr 48:28 Um, I, I don't know. I think it's, um... I dunno about change, I think it's like you sort of, um... You know that thing of like, uh, uh, power corrupts? I think it does. I think power reveals.And I would say sort of the same about sort of parenthood. Like, you don't- you don't change, it just reveals who you- who you are at a kind of a deeper level.

Chris Williamson 48:55 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 48:56 It's just, like, the- the- the- there's a- there's a side of you that was always kind of waiting, uh, and you- you come out and you don't get... It's almost like the kids come out with their factory settings, right? Like, how much of what they have is heritable. And they just come out and they are who they are, and you watch these little creatures and they- and they, you kinda go, "That sort of got a personality. I don't know where that happened." And then the other one's got a totally different personality. Oh, 'cause I think everyone with one kid is nurture. "Oh, well we- we gave them this, so they've done that. And we were always, we read books like that, so they did this and did that."

Chris Williamson 49:31 Mm. Because you haven't got to run the experiment a second time.

Jimmy Carr 49:34 Yeah. And then as soon as you get the second one, you go, "Uh, uh, uh, I don't know. I don't know."

Chris Williamson 49:38 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 49:39 Yeah, they just, yeah, she likes that, so what are you gonna do?

Chris Williamson 49:43 Yep.

Jimmy Carr 49:43 It's- it's- it's lovely, um, and I think it's the same with parenting. I think you don't know who you're gonna be as a parent, and it's a- it's a revealing thing. It's- it's, you- you kinda go, "Oh, I'm, oh, I'm that kind of... Okay. That's fun. Great."

Chris Williamson 50:00 Did it teach you much about yourself?

Jimmy Carr 50:02 Um, I don't know. I- I- I don't know what the... I suppose it's that thing of, like, it's a- a, it's- it's a feeling that's very difficult to put into words without, you know, it's a very sort of cliched thing, but it does feel like it's, um... I suppose it's- it's closed off, uh, an existential angst that I always had of, like, since losing my re- I lost my religion in my mid-20s, so quite sort of late. Uh, I was a- a Catholic and I- I lost my faith and was, uh, an atheist. And not having a- an afterlife is, it's a rush of blood to the head, right? So I've got to do something with this life. I've got to take opportunities and risks and have fun now because, um, a random collection of atoms coalesced into a form that can contemplate its own consciousness for 4,000 weeks and then disappears again. That's it. We're in this brief shaft of light between two oceans of darkness. And then suddenly you have kids and you go, "Oh, there is- there is a next life. It's them. It's the- it's the DNA. It's the... Dawkins was right, it's the- the gene."

Chris Williamson 51:22 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 51:23 "I'm just the- I'm the vessel." And that's, I- I found that very... I found that incredibly comforting.

Chris Williamson 51:30 Oh, so you're saying that, uh, the denial of death and the death anxiety can be assuaged, at least in part, by making more of you?

Jimmy Carr 51:39 Yeah. I think the- the- the death anxiety, the death is the, uh, um, uh, it's the certainty. It's, you know, it's coming- coming for all of us. I think the more that we, uh, talk about it and acknowledge it, then, uh, the better.

Chris Williamson 51:58 That idea around, "I- I will become a dad when I become a man." Uh, "I- I will," um...

Jimmy Carr 52:06 That- that's clearly, like, the movie of your life, the guys listening to the podcast, the girls listening to the podcast, the whole th- I mean, we're all screaming at the podcast-

Chris Williamson 52:17 Be a fucking father.

Jimmy Carr 52:19 ... going, like-

Chris Williamson 52:19 Use the genes, use them.

Jimmy Carr 52:21 Yes. We sort of want you to be happy.

Chris Williamson 52:23 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 52:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:24 Yeah. Well, I can't wait. I, you know, I keep on saying it. I- I- I really, really do look forward to becoming a dad. Like, I think it's gonna be, uh... I hope that becoming a father makes all of the things that I've done up to now feel like shallow, vapid attempts to get recognition from the world.

Jimmy Carr 52:45 You're club promoter, Love Island? Shallow and vapid?

Chris Williamson 52:49 DJ, model. Yeah, I know.

Jimmy Carr 52:50 Shallow, vapid, how dare you?

Chris Williamson 52:52 What can I say?

Jimmy Carr 52:53 It's a wonderful industry to be part of.

Chris Williamson 52:54 Very insight- very insightful, incisive, you know.

Jimmy Carr 52:57 My prediction is you should, uh, uh, uh, not my prediction, my- my, uh, dream for you is that you have, uh, a big family because I think there's a, um-

Chris Williamson 53:05 As an only child, that sounds terrifying.

Jimmy Carr 53:07 But there's a- there's a theme in the... The only child thing comes up a lot for you.

Chris Williamson 53:12 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 53:12 Like, it's a- it's a recurring theme.

Chris Williamson 53:14 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 53:14 And I think what you need is a really loud, messy house. Let's go back to Plato, right? So my issue with Plato, obviously, uh, you know, the- the- the birth of the, you know, it's Plato to NATO, that's Western civilization, right? Incredibly important figure. But I got issues with Plato if he was here and I- I- I'd say, I'll tell him. It's Plato and the Zarathushtrans, and they both independently came up with the idea of perfection. So the Zarathushtrans were the first religion, I believe, to come up with the idea of heaven, perfection, and the platonic ideals of Plato. And I think in our heads we think of perfection as an ideal, uh, obviously a lot, and I think it gets in our heads. Like, "Well, if it go- can't be perfect, I don't wanna... I- I wanna get to the bottom of my list, I'm gonna cross everything off. I wanna deal with all these problems and then move on."

Chris Williamson 54:08 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 54:08 You go, well, problems are... All a problem is, is it's something that needs your attention. That's great. And there's no such thing as no problems, there's just different problems. High- higher order problems. If it helps, call it a puzzle, not a problem. Like, just, it's- there's- there's gonna be problems, it's gonna be messy. Uh, like, Nietzsche had this great line which, uh, embrace the chaos. Like, it's quite chaotic, life, and it's- it's not terribly orderly and it's never gonna be orderly. And I think there, something about having kids kinda lets you just kinda lean into that a little bit. It's the illusion of control really disappears. You've got influence, but very little control.

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Chris Williamson 55:44 That's interesting. I learned this idea called, uh, deferred happiness syndrome from Gwindon Bogle, "the common feeling that your life has not begun, that your present reality is a mere prelude to some idyllic future. This idyll is a mirage that will fade as you approach, revealing that the prelude you rushed through is in fact the one to your death." It's this strange-

Jimmy Carr 56:04 Is that not John Lennon? "Life is what happens while we're making other plans."

Chris Williamson 56:08 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 56:10 Like, it's- it's- yeah, it's a brilliant piece of, it's a brilliant observation. "Oh, once I've got this done, once I get my degree, then life will begin. Once I've- I've just gotta pass these exams and get to that thing and buy that house, and then I've just gotta pay this off, and then I've gotta do, and then we can start."

Chris Williamson 56:27 It's a very instrumental view of life that everything is done in order to achieve the next thing, so at no point do you actually arrive. It's a great question, okay, when are you going to arrive? Tell me, tell me when you're going to arrive at life, when you're gonna feel like you've actually got there.

Jimmy Carr 56:43 Well, it's- we're gonna end up being Buddhists, aren't we? Because it's like, li- like, an- I- I- I do slightly disagree with the over-pathologizing life, but depression and anxiety, which I- I would rather call sadness and worry, but, you know, it's very serious for some people, right? And depression is always about the past, and anxiety is about the future. And in- th- the more you can just be in the moment, you kind of, you're sort of all right. You're sort of okay, you know, today, enjoying that thing of, like, enjoying this bit of the process.

Chris Williamson 57:16 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 57:17 But it- it is that thing of, like, it's very, it's kinda easy, it's easy to say, I mean, I love that thing as- as well. I'm such a fanboy of the show.

Chris Williamson 57:24 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 57:24 But they, the, um, 2D and 3D lessons.

Chris Williamson 57:28 Lessons, oh God, one of my favorites.

Jimmy Carr 57:29 But it's- it's so true in terms of, like, you can't say to a young person, like, the, uh, material possessions, uh, they're not gonna bring you happiness, because actually, they kinda will.

Chris Williamson 57:39 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 57:39 But not having the watch won't make you happy.

Chris Williamson 57:45 Getting the watch.

Jimmy Carr 57:45 Getting it is fun. Having stuff is, getting stuff is fun. The journey is- is so fun, like, that- that thing of, like... And it's partly the dopamine of, like, it's- it's the, uh, the- the thrill of, uh, the acquisition, but the stuff that gives you pleasure long-term, it's like, it's- it's, um, it's feelings.

Chris Williamson 58:03 Yeah. Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun. That's Andrew Tate, by the way. But you have this-

Jimmy Carr 58:08 Is it?

Chris Williamson 58:08 (laughs) Yeah, that's Andrew Tate.

Jimmy Carr 58:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:09 Yeah, no, like, you- you weren't expecting that.

Jimmy Carr 58:12 Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Chris Williamson 58:14 (laughs) That's true. Um, but you had the-

Jimmy Carr 58:17 You know.

Chris Williamson 58:17 ... you had the inverse of this when it comes to work rate, which I think probably classes as one of the best insights over the last few years. Everyone is jealous of what you've got. No one is jealous of how you got it.

Jimmy Carr 58:28 Yeah, I think that thing of, like, but it is that thing where you go when people say, "I wanna be famous," and, but- but they don't have a thing. They, it- it, like, for, I don't know what for, but it's the- but fame and fortune is the, a secular heaven.

Chris Williamson 58:46 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 58:47 For- for fame, read heaven. It's the land of milk and honey. Everything's gonna be okay. And then, when you, it's kind of annoying when famous people complain about stuff, 'cause you're going, "But you, you got everything. No, you've just got different problems." It's, again, it's problems as a, as a- a feature, not a bug.

Chris Williamson 59:02 Well, the- the issue you have, the issue that I think a lot of famous people have is, "I am certain that my inner void will be filled when I..." And the benefit that people who are not yet as rich or as famous as they want to be is that they still have the potential panacea for them to get to.

Jimmy Carr 59:21 What's that great Will Smith line?

Chris Williamson 59:23 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:23 Uh, and I'm not the biggest Will Smith fan in the world.

Chris Williamson 59:25 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:25 But the idea that he- he went, "I was, I was poor and miserable, and it was okay because I thought, well, I'll just, I'll get some money and then I'll be all right," and then was rich and miserable and was like, "Oh."

Chris Williamson 59:34 Despondent.

Jimmy Carr 59:35 "Oh, fuck."

Chris Williamson 59:36 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:36 "Oh, no."

Chris Williamson 59:37 Yeah, that's Mark Manson's, uh, memoir about-

Jimmy Carr 59:38 There's nothing else to do.

Chris Williamson 59:39 Yeah, yeah. Um, originally, that was gonna be a two-part series. Mark was gonna write 'cause the first book's called Will. He wrote that with- with Will Smith, and the second book was going to be called Power, and, uh-

Jimmy Carr 59:49 Should've been called I Am, that would've been a great-

Chris Williamson 59:51 Ah, very good.

Jimmy Carr 59:52 ... be a copyright issue.

Chris Williamson 59:53 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:53 Um-

Chris Williamson 59:53 Yeah, which- which way around does it work? Interesting, when it comes to trademark, I'm gonna get this the wrong way round, but Europe and the US have different laws when it comes to how words can be trademarked.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:07 And my- my- my mind is stuck on a joke. Okay, so when the Will Smith and Chris Rock thing happened, okay, obviously it's, Chris Rock is, like, for me, a godlike figure. I've met him a couple of times and I just, I- I'm so in awe of his skill, uh, and- and, uh, work-

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 Do not touch our prophet, okay?

Jimmy Carr 1:00:25 ... work ethic. And like, I was so annoyed. So I- I- I was, uh, chatting about, chatting about it a couple of weeks ago with a friend, and, uh, and said, "Oh," uh, uh, y- somehow it came up and I said, "Oh, Chris Rock, yeah, he was, uh, he was at the Oscars, yeah, he was really starstruck." Like, three years too late. If I'd thought of that on the day, it was really-

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:00:44 ... genuinely annoyed with myself, like, oh, come on. Come on, brain. Think about it on the day. No use now.

Chris Williamson 1:00:50 But there is the- there is this sense of...What happens if you achieve the things that you say that you want? What happens if you get there? Just imagine for a second the perennial, insecure, overachiever, optimizer people. What happens if you get there and you still have the same problems? Then what do you do?

Jimmy Carr 1:01:10 That's a difficult question. Yeah, but I think it's, I think it's answered by, um, you know, there's- there's- there's other people on the same road, and it can feel sometimes quite sort of, I don't know, you sort of, y- you're out there battling, trying to- trying to achieve whatever you're trying to achieve and you- you- you kind of do it and look around and you go, "Well, there's other people." I think having friends in other fields is really helpful and y- you know, 'cause that thing of, like, if- i- if it's too close to your industry, it can sometimes be a little bit kind of-

Chris Williamson 1:01:40 Rivalrous.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:40 ... frenemies.

Chris Williamson 1:01:41 Yep.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:42 Um, but I think that thing of like, well comedy's really good for that because it's kind of we're out for ourselves but in it together.

Chris Williamson 1:01:49 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:50 There's a lovely thing about-

Chris Williamson 1:01:51 A sense of camaraderie.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:52 Y- yeah, and it's not like we're actors. It's not like we're, uh, you know, there's-

Chris Williamson 1:01:55 There's only one role for the next Marvel movie.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:57 There's only one James Bond and I'm afraid you didn't get the part but he did. Ah, his life's amazing, yours is shit. Whatever that thing is. Um, with comedy it seems to be that there's a- there's a- a- a camaraderie and a, it's also, comes back to that thing of like, don't be the best, be the only. Like, if you're a non-fungible human and someone goes, "Well no one else is doing what he does."

Chris Williamson 1:02:19 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:02:20 Other people are in the same, uh, industry. It's like, Iron Maiden had a great line about this. The- the Iron Maiden was like, they- they, I think they did an interview with the, um, their- their manager and he went, "Well we're not in the music industry. We're in the Iron Maiden industry." So-

Chris Williamson 1:02:38 (laughs) That's a fucking slammer, oh my God.

Jimmy Carr 1:02:40 And they- and they went, he went, "I don't care what's happening in that field, we can only plow this field." And like it's just, you go, yeah, I mean, they had so many great lines actually, but I think Bruce Dickinson was sort- sort of saying fame is, um, it's- it's a- a- a byproduct of what we do. It's the- it's the, uh, it's the excrement, uh, fame is the excrement of creativity.

Chris Williamson 1:03:08 Mm-hmm. (laughs) Like something that you need to deal with but sometimes can be enjoyable.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:15 Well it's like, eh, yeah, okay. Eh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:18 Well it's interesting when people pursue fame for fame's sake. "I want to be famous." It's like, no-

Jimmy Carr 1:03:23 Sorry, you- you were on Love Island when?

Chris Williamson 1:03:24 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:03:25 Sorry, what?

Chris Williamson 1:03:26 That's true.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:27 Hey, look, I'm allowed to talk- I'm allowed to talk about this 'cause I went up the mountain and came back down.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:31 Well no, I think it is that thing of like the, I don't think that story's been told properly. We were chatting about this last night at a dinner bar. I think to tell that story fully, I think is very inspirational.

Chris Williamson 1:03:42 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:43 Because you go, it's the, you've worked on something that is a, uh, like- like any other muscle. You know, we, going into Love Island and okay, you've got great forearms. Wonderful, good luck, god bless. And then you've worked on that for, w- how many years now? Six? Seven?

Chris Williamson 1:04:02 S- this is year eight, yeah, seven and a half now, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:04:04 Okay. Uh, wow. The results.

Chris Williamson 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:04:08 Like the- the-

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 It's crazy when you-

Jimmy Carr 1:04:09 ... like you're- you're an advert for, it's not even work ethic, it's just, it's- it's- it's not like ambition. It's systems. It's like three shows a week every week. I know what a tough year you've had.

Chris Williamson 1:04:22 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:04:23 And the idea that you just keep on showing up-

Chris Williamson 1:04:26 Yeah, I mean come on, come on. To- to mutually fellate each other, you are by a margin the hardest working comedian on the planet. I- I don't think that there is-

Jimmy Carr 1:04:36 Well if only I had a bit more talent.

Chris Williamson 1:04:37 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:04:38 I'd take a weekend off.

Chris Williamson 1:04:40 I- I'm blown away by the schedule that you have. Um, I did actually want to read you an essay of mine, um, based on people that work very hard. The gastric band surgery of being busy. After undergoing gastric band surgery, peoples' risk of suicide goes up. That's perhaps unsurprising. Gastric band surgery is a big deal and can sometimes have complications, infections and painful outcomes. But one of the unseen reasons for the increased suicide risk is actually due to the surgery going right, not it going wrong. Many patients used food as a way to deal with issues in their lives, emotional challenges, loneliness, anxiety. After having their stomach shrunk, the ability to use food as a comforting crutch has been removed but the emotional challenges still remain. So, the coping mechanism has been taken away, forcing patients to face their issues without a release valve. I think there is an equivalent dynamic happening when you try to elevate your life, to take your sense of self-worth from things other than your work and your level of busyness. Let's say that in the past you used busyness as a chaos and a- as a way to distract yourself from feeling unwanted emotions. It meant that you didn't need to reflect on your decisions or sit in discomfort, that you're moving so quickly that you never fully connect with the things that are happening in your life. Lost relationships, disconnected friends, poor decisions and accumulated negative character traits are all swept away so quickly that you didn't even have time to consider them by manic work rate. Eventually you realize that chaotic busyness is not your highest calling in life. Maybe you value different things now. Maybe you've outgrown that phase of your life. Maybe you realize that busyness for busyness's sake is detaching you from connecting to your existence. So, what happens when this coping mechanism gets taken away? You are forced to face your issues without the highly distracting release valve that you're used to. The busyness anesthetic that you've used to previously rely on has now been removed, leaving you with two choices. Number one, ignore the lesson that chaos is not fulfillment and go back down this road that you just escaped from by force feeding your way through this figurative gastric band. Number two, actually learn to handle emotional discomfort without distracting yourself with work.

Jimmy Carr 1:06:43 Yeah. That's beautiful. It really reminds me of that, um, Milan Kundera wrote this short book called Slowness and kind of the- the nub of the book, the message is that memory and speed are inversely proportionate.So the idea, like the best example I can think of is when COVID hit and the world slowed.

Chris Williamson 1:07:04 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:06 You kind of took stock and remembered stuff and sort of had time to contemplate.

Chris Williamson 1:07:13 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:14 Like, in that boredom, I guess, of not being busy, not being chaotic-

Chris Williamson 1:07:21 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:22 ... there was a real, "Oh," kind of look around. I don't know, I, um-

Chris Williamson 1:07:26 Didn't you have a Chairman Mao quote that was similar to this?

Jimmy Carr 1:07:30 What was the Chairman Mao quote? I don't know.

Chris Williamson 1:07:31 "You can't smell the roses from a galloping horse."

Jimmy Carr 1:07:34 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good ... That's Mao. What? Again? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:38 Who knew Chairman Mao ... (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:07:41 Look, we can take good shit, we can take good shit from Andrew Tate and Chairman Mao.

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:07:45 As long as it's good shit.

Chris Williamson 1:07:46 That's the headline. 'Cause that's really who you need to be associated with right now to help rehabilitate your, your public image.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:50 Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:52 (laughs) Chairman Mao and Andrew Tate.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:54 Uh, yeah, but it's that the, uh, it's, it's true. Like, slowing down once in a while is, uh, is, is very good for you.

Chris Williamson 1:08:00 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:08:01 And, and finding that balance in life. But I think, um ... I don't know, I think working hard's not ... It's also, like, I know people that really work hard. Like, I work hard in showbiz. Like, are the hardest working man in, in comedy. Yeah, it's like being the best looking guy in the burns unit.

Chris Williamson 1:08:19 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:08:20 Right? It's not, it's not really a flex.

Chris Williamson 1:08:23 People that work hard.

Jimmy Carr 1:08:23 'Cause even if I do two shows a night, oh my God, sometimes I have to work for four hours.

Chris Williamson 1:08:28 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:08:29 I'm not sure I'm gonna be okay. Like, what are you ... It's, it's nothing. Like, there's people with real jobs that work really hard, and there's people actually that don't love their job, that they, they work in order to facilitate a life that they love. Well, great. Good on them. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's an honor and there's a worth in that. I think we've slightly lost that in our society, if I'm honest with you. Like, the hero of the working man that provides for his family, puts food on the table and a roof over their head, fucking great.

Chris Williamson 1:08:54 Well, I th- it's, that's a good point that, um, we've sort of pedestalized passion so much that we assume the only reason that anybody does a job is because they want to do it, and there is a- an additional type of nobility that comes along with drudgery. You think, "Well, not only do you do this thing, which is maybe hard, but you don't want to do it, but you do it anyway."

Jimmy Carr 1:09:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:16 It-

Jimmy Carr 1:09:16 I don't know, being, being a provider, um, taking care of, I mean, yourself and the people that you love, just doing that and working hard, it's not ... Like, something shifted in our culture where that isn't, um ... Those, uh, th- those people are seen as being chumps or, uh, you know, a mark. Uh, uh, oh, they're, th- they, they haven't got a, a side-

Chris Williamson 1:09:40 They're owned by the man.

Jimmy Carr 1:09:41 Yeah, they haven't got a side hustle and they're grifted. And you go, "No, that's ... Some people work like that, and they work really hard, and they provide for their families and they, they are doing great, and they're taking pleasure from their hobbies and their interests, and they're ..." Actually, a, a friend of mine was talking about this 'cause his father had quite a boring job, but he was so passionate about his hobbies. And it was really inter- it was really interesting that he was like, he didn't like the term hobbies even, because he was going, "That's what brought him joy in life."

Chris Williamson 1:10:10 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:10:11 That was the thing for him. Great.

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Chris Williamson 1:11:23 There's a line from, uh, Visakan Varasamy. He says, "I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things." And this is an idea I've been thinking about recently. The, there is a kind of embarrassment in the modern world at taking pleasure from ordinary pursuits. This sort of sense that my ... The things that I feel particularly proud about and that I take a sense of self-worth from and fulfillment, they should be grand. Because how feeble, how shallow, how unimpressive a life it is that lying in a hammock for a couple of hours can be one of the greatest sources of joy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, you're supposed to be base jumping from the, the edge of a skyscraper w- you know, just off the back end of some VIP trip to Ibiza to go and watch ... You know, it's supposed to be this grand thing. And that line, "I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things," I think is a pathology of the modern world.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:23 Should- should we quote Naval? I mean, he's the best of us. "If you're not happy having a coffee with a friend, you won't be happy on a yacht."

Chris Williamson 1:12:31 On a yacht. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:31 I did have coffee with a friend on a yacht recently and went-

Chris Williamson 1:12:34 Yay, I've done both.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:35 ... "This is, this is good."

Chris Williamson 1:12:35 It's even better.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:36 I'm en- I'm enjoying all of it.

Chris Williamson 1:12:37 Yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:37 This is great.

Chris Williamson 1:12:38 It is better.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:39 It's a big boat.

Chris Williamson 1:12:39 Yeah. But no, there, there's an interesting, um, there's an interesting challenge there, I think, for people that are perennial overthinkers, because a lot of them will feel things more deeply than they should do, including the shame of feeling things more deeply than they should do. That's this odd sort of recursive loop.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:57 Yeah.Are you en- are you allowing yourself to enjoy anything at the moment?

Chris Williamson 1:13:03 Y- I'm trying to as much as I can.

Jimmy Carr 1:13:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:13:05 I mean, look, some of the things that I've learned, this, this celebration thing is gratitude and action, I think is a, a, a beautiful way to summarize something that I've kind of