EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,313 words- 0:00 – 6:46
Why Jimmy Is A Fan Of Modern Wisdom
- JCJimmy Carr
This is a big deal for me, uh, because I listen to the show so much. I absolutely love it. I slightly could fanboy about the whole thing. I really lo- I- I- I love what you do. I love this show. I'm nervous about it because I kinda go, well, normally it's an expert with something to say.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
And I'm like, "Oh, I've got dick jokes if you need them."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
"Will that do?"
- CWChris Williamson
S- why are you such a fan of it?
- JCJimmy Carr
I don't know. I think the breadth of the subject matter, and I think that thing of going it's in a... There's a lot of... It's that signal and noise. There's a lot of noise out there, and I love the idea that I listen to this show and... Even stuff that I'm, "Oh, well, maybe I wouldn't read that book," but I'm interested in listening to them for an hour and a half or two hours. And then oftentimes, it's something where someone says something and you go, "Wow, that's brilliant. I've gotta go and look at their channel, or I'm gonna go and find something." So I'm using it almost kind of a- as a- your research as a resource for me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
And I think a lot of people talk about diet, uh, and exercise, and they talk about, um, how it makes them feel, and they're eating right, and they're staying away from processed foods, and they look fantastic. And then you ask them what they're watching and they go, "Yeah, well, I'm watching Love Island, but, like, the old series, and I'm smashing through it." And I don't know if you're aware of Love Island, but it's- it's for- it's for- it's for terrible people doing terrible things. And the- the idea that you go... That information diet is such an important thing, of, like... I think you said it here, where you're sort of a, uh... If you tell someone the last five podcasts I listened to, it's a pretty good read on who they are and what they wanna do, and I love... The other thing I love about this show is I think it's got... It's aiming up. Everything seems to be... Like, the way that you conduct interviews and the way that you engage with people, it seems to be you're trying to bring the best out of them, which- which I- I like anyway, it's very positive to listen to, but it's also that everyone you have on is trying to make your life better. It's- it's very well-intentioned as a- as a show. Um, I- I think it's- it's terrific, and the- the- the transformation in you I think has been sort of- sort of extraordinary, the journey-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... um, to this is- is just kind of amazing. When I see you... I- I mean, I- I genuinely got quite emotional with the Naval Ravikant, uh, thing, of c- 'cause I knew what that meant to you. And as someone who's a big fan of podcasts and a big fan of, I suppose, modern wisdom in- in the broader sense as well, like, someone like Naval, who's done maybe five or six podcasts ever and one incredible burst of wisdom on Twitter, you go, it's slim pickings if you're a fan. He's the J.D. Salinger of the podcast world. And then you get him on the show, and it's like, I felt like that was the... Is that your Mount Rushmore completed?
- CWChris Williamson
One more, Rogan. So it was a Mount Rushmore, but then I realized there was five, so it's more like Thanos' glove-
- JCJimmy Carr
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... with the different Infinity Stones. So it was, before I started, uh, Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Alain de Botton, and Naval Ravikant.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That was before I started the show, those were the five I wanted, and I've got four. And after the last episode with Rogan, I woke up the next day, as you have today, with still the anxiety of, "Well, I hope, you know, I hope I didn't put my foot in my mouth too many times," and so on and so forth. And, uh, he texted me and was like, "Loved the show yesterday, man. Like, always a pleasure to sit down. By the way, we still need to get and book a date in to bring you on the show." Him on- so he's self-invited. So I was like, "Joe, give over, you know?"
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I'm not for-
- CWChris Williamson
"I've got so many other people to speak to." Um, but yeah, there's a- there's definitely a little bit of a sense of, like, gold medal syndrome, uh, where I think, "Fuck," like, what do you do when you've completed the things that you said that you were here to do? And I imagine that that must be the same in your industry as well, you know, "When- when I can start selling out theaters, when I can start selling out arenas, when I can start selling out stadiums, when I get the Amazon Prime deal, when I... Well, we've gotta run it back for season two. I've gotta pro- ensure that it wasn't a fluke, I've gotta do it twice, that's the problem."
- JCJimmy Carr
Is it not Morgan Housel, uh, the- the- the genius that is Morgan Housel that said it's the, like, success is not moving the goalposts?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's that thing, if you constantly eat like that, that, uh, uh, hedonic treadmill of, like, as soon as something good happens you go, "Yeah, but- but what about the- the next thing?" And, "Yeah, I said it was that amount of money, but now it's this amount of money." And I think the, um, most ambitions should be, um, internal. They should be, uh, you should be heading for a feeling, and if it's process-driven... 'Cause kinda success is a- is a- is a moment, you know, even if you get the- the big thing, whatever it is, and there's lots of those markers along the way. And I've kind of, um... I'm trying to think about celebration in a different way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
I'm trying to think about, like, celebrating those moments, like, the equivalent of Naval Ravikant comes on your podcast.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Um, you do a co-headliner with Dave Chappelle-
- CWChris Williamson
You sell out your tour.
- JCJimmy Carr
... and he's moving to your show.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
Whatev- whatev- whatever the thing is that you go, "Oh, that's cool."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- 6:46 – 20:56
Creativity Can’t Be White Knuckled
- JCJimmy Carr
space.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's very difficult to white-knuckle creativity. I'm aware that you are someone who has quite a sort of, uh, structured creative process, but I would imagine that if you look at the absolute big winners that you've come up with, they've probably kind of been bestowed from above in a, "Oh, mother of fu... That's it. It's that thing." It's sort of almost divine inspiration that then gets refined in the process.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I think there's something about... Yeah, I don't know about the refining really. I mean, often it's that thing of, like, you're writing on stage because you're in a flow state.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
So I started doing a thing a couple of years ago where... Actually, what... It was, I mean, jealousy, really. I was looking at Andrew Schulz, and I was looking at Matt Rife selling out arenas across America, and I was, "How are they... What, what's going on here?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
And then... And, and I know those guys a little bit, and I like them a lot. And, "What's happening?" And they were all doing, putting out crowd work. I was thinking, "Well, I do a lot of crowd work. Wha- But, what? D- Oh, I should do that. Oh, dummy, every day's a school day." So I kind of watched it and started putting out these crowd work videos, and it has grown. I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
It's crushing.
- JCJimmy Carr
And, and it's also that weird thing of, like, going, "I hadn't realized how much improv I was doing in a show."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's like 20 minutes a show of stuff we can put out that's unique to that show. And-
- CWChris Williamson
That doesn't kill the set, doesn't bank the-
- JCJimmy Carr
No, no. Just doesn't, doesn't touch the written material. And it's a lovely thing where, as a comedian, you wanna kind of... I, I s- think about... I'm in the service industry, right? And I, I'm gonna be fined because I, I make something people want. I make them happy. No one remembers what I say, but they remember how I made them feel. And I tell jokes, and I want to turn up suited and booted because it's a proxy for respect, right? You, I respect you, you've paid money, you've come out, you've given me your time and attention. There's noth- there's nothing else. All that we have in life is time and attention, and they've given me that. So I wanna prepare a show and make sure there's like 150 incredible banging lines that are like... And they've been filtered from-
- CWChris Williamson
It's lean.
- JCJimmy Carr
... a thousand lines that were okay but not, didn't quite make the cut. And then it's that thing where you go, "And also, I need to hold that space." Well, okay, perform those jokes and then, "Okay, what have we got? Shout out. Anyone got anything? Join in." And it's like... I suppose the analogy wa- would be, it's like doing that kind of improv, it's like watching a magician do real magic because you're doing the thing in real time, and-
- CWChris Williamson
It's freestyle rapping.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, and it's the, "I wonder how much of..." Chappelle said this thing a while ago, and it really struck with me, of like... He was talking about a bad gig that he had, and, um, Dave does not have many bad gigs, but he was talking about Evel Knievel. He said, "Evil Knievel wasn't paid for the jump. He was paid for the attempt." And I was thinking, "That's a brilliant way of looking at it," because actually how much of what we do as comedians is bravery? How much of it is being paid to... Yeah, there's freedom of speech, but it isn't freedom of consequence. And this fucking lunatic is saying anything. This guy's, "I'm taking all the filters away." And if you think about what friendship is, for me, it's the person you have the least filter with. Again, another thing I got from Modern Wisdom.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna ask-
- JCJimmy Carr
But it's the least-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I was gonna-
- JCJimmy Carr
... the least filter.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna ask you this. I was gonna say-
- JCJimmy Carr
This is like a best of episode of Modern Wisdom.
- CWChris Williamson
I know. It's really lovely to hear you on other shows, and I wonder how many other people pick up on it. I'm not to say that I'm your intellectual daddy or that the people on this show are. But it's so nice to hear your interpretation of ideas that really mean a lot to me that have maybe the inspiration, consciously or subconsciously, has percolated through. So I'm like, "Fuck, that sounds familiar. Fuck, that's like, that's like a, that's a, that's a work on a Hormozi quote from 2000, 2023 that I-"
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. And I try and give you props-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, you do.
- JCJimmy Carr
... all the time because it... Yeah, but it is that thing where you go, it's your, your, your friendship group and your, the, the things that you're taking in. I think also, like, for a lot of people, right... I'm in a very privileged position. I'm fully aware of that. I get to know you. I, we get to be friends as well. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
If there's a question you want to bring up, we can WhatsApp each other.
- JCJimmy Carr
And we get to be friends with George Mackem. There, there, there's a coterie of people that, you know, we know each other, and there's a lot of mutual respect there. And I feel that, and it's, it's lovely. But I think really the sweet source of this show is I think most people that listen to this show have that relationship with you as well. It's just they, they didn't get to go for a steak last night, but they kind of go... Y- you know, they're... I think it's the same thing of going... I think probably most people listening to the show are, like, "Low level a bit concerned about your health at the moment."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 20:56 – 31:04
If You Want An Interesting Life, Do This
- CWChris Williamson
I heard a quote of yours, "If you're going to have an interesting life, you can't have all of the other interesting lives you would have had."
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that mean to you?
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, I suppose it's that thing of, like, it's incredible the things you won't do. Like, when you think about, like, the potential that we all have, like, we've all... We're all privileged in a sense, right, 'cause we all get one life, and then we get given, you know, different gifts, right? So there's no... There can be no equality because we're all born different, right? So it's that thing of going... And it's not better, worse, i- i- all the same, it's just different. Everyone's kinda different. And I think that, for me, that... The idea of going, um, you can, you can't have an easy life and a great character. You can't... You've got to kind of go out there and- and decide what you want, that's the first great adventure. And then getting it is the second great adventure. So, it sort of speaks to that thing of, like, wishing wells work. But they don't work when... It's not the magic. The magic is you going, "Oh, what would I wish for? What do I want being the fundamental g-" And, like, if you know what you want, that's incredibly powerful. Most people don't. Mo- most desires are mimetic desires, and you get into René Girard and the idea of going, "Well, I want that watch 'cause he's got that watch, and I want that car 'cause he's got that car, and I'd love that girlfriend." It's like, how many guys are dating girls that are incredibly hot, they look amazing, very impressive, and they don't even like the guy? It's like... It's a weird flex.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. They're- they're in love with what other people think about them-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm. It's that-
- CWChris Williamson
... by having that.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's that Will Storr thing, that Status Game book, which is again, I mean, it's just... He's such a genius writer.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Uh, I love him. He's got a new Substack, by the way, all about storytelling.
- CWChris Williamson
His new book-
- JCJimmy Carr
Wonderful. Check him out.
- CWChris Williamson
... he comes out this week on the show, the-
- JCJimmy Carr
Oh, he's-
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, A Story Is A Deal.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. It's wonderful.
- CWChris Williamson
He's come out... He's- he's- he's an outstanding, outstanding human.
- JCJimmy Carr
But that idea of, like, you choose what status game you play.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
You know, so- so what status game? And- and again, another thing from Modern Wisdom, that idea of going, well, there's- there's fuck you money, and there's fuck you freedom-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... and there's fuck you family.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
I real- I mean, that really I took to heart as going, "Oh, that's very interesting." And the idea of going, "What are the things that you're not gonna do?" Because we live in a world that rewards specialization. And it strikes me that our whole school system is like geared wrong to get you to do all the different things.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
You know? And- and really, you know, young kids are like, "What are you gonna get from being... Okay, you're terrible at maths, but we're gonna get you up to a C grade?"
- CWChris Williamson
Keep learning. (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. Because what the world needs is someone who's all right at maths? No! It's like-
- CWChris Williamson
Semi- semi-competent at maths.
- JCJimmy Carr
No! But- but you're brilliant at English. Well, fucking lean into that, spend all your time doing that. You know, specialize, especially in- as- as the world changes, I think leaning into, you know, what... It's that you often get... I don't know what it is about age or my position in life, but I often get asked like, "Oh, you know, what do you think I should do?"
- 31:04 – 48:26
Finding Your Life’s Direction
- JCJimmy Carr
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, good question on, um, what should I be doing with my life, you said before. Uh, if people were making a movie about your life, what would the key scenes be?
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, it's a weird thing actually where, like, the cancellation episode, I was thinking, like, whenever you get canceled or ... Not canceled, dragged. Whenever you get, like, a, a tough time, it's like if my life was a movie this would be the best episode.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
If my, if my life was a, like, a ten part on HBO, they'd, they'd go, oh
- CWChris Williamson
Dedicate an entire episode to that.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. "You saw the episode where-"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
"... he said the terrible thing and people got very upset." I mean, always think you've got to rightsize it with, with, uh, you know, there's different types of cancellation. Like, oftentimes it's, "I told a joke and some people didn't like it."
- CWChris Williamson
Wah!
- JCJimmy Carr
Okay. Yeah. It's like, eh...
- CWChris Williamson
Wah!
- JCJimmy Carr
Who cares? There's a, um ... The patron saint of comedy is Saint Lawrence. And Saint Lawrence was a-
- CWChris Williamson
Your, your industry has a patron saint?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- JCJimmy Carr
And he's a third-century martyr. And he was a early Christian, obviously. And, uh, Saint Lawrence was, uh, condemned to death, and they burnt him alive. Uh, so they put him on, like, a, a, a metal, kind of ... I don't know, like, I don't know what you would call it.
- CWChris Williamson
Like a fucking skillet. (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. Like a big skillet.
- CWChris Williamson
Skilleted. (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
And they s- and they, they cooked him.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JCJimmy Carr
Uh, and he said, after ten minutes of being burnt alive, uh, "Turn me over. This side's done." And that level of bravery and fuck you-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... is very inspirational. It's like that thing of, like, going, "I- i- it's almost like Stoicism to the extreme." Like, the what ... We, we ha- we can't control the world. We can have a strong influence, but we can't control anything, and shit is gonna happen to you, and how you react to that is life.
- CWChris Williamson
Was Plato the guy that was forced to be killed by the government? Was that him?
- JCJimmy Carr
What drank poison?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- JCJimmy Carr
I think that was Socrates, wasn't it?
- CWChris Williamson
Socrates. Thank you.
- 48:26 – 55:44
How Fatherhood Changed Jimmy
- JCJimmy Carr
as a dad.
- CWChris Williamson
How has fatherhood changed you?
- JCJimmy Carr
Um, I, I don't know. I think it's, um... I dunno about change, I think it's like you sort of, um... You know that thing of like, uh, uh, power corrupts? I think it does. I think power reveals.And I would say sort of the same about sort of parenthood. Like, you don't- you don't change, it just reveals who you- who you are at a kind of a deeper level.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's just, like, the- the- the- there's a- there's a side of you that was always kind of waiting, uh, and you- you come out and you don't get... It's almost like the kids come out with their factory settings, right? Like, how much of what they have is heritable. And they just come out and they are who they are, and you watch these little creatures and they- and they, you kinda go, "That sort of got a personality. I don't know where that happened." And then the other one's got a totally different personality. Oh, 'cause I think everyone with one kid is nurture. "Oh, well we- we gave them this, so they've done that. And we were always, we read books like that, so they did this and did that."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Because you haven't got to run the experiment a second time.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. And then as soon as you get the second one, you go, "Uh, uh, uh, I don't know. I don't know."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, they just, yeah, she likes that, so what are you gonna do?
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's- it's- it's lovely, um, and I think it's the same with parenting. I think you don't know who you're gonna be as a parent, and it's a- it's a revealing thing. It's- it's, you- you kinda go, "Oh, I'm, oh, I'm that kind of... Okay. That's fun. Great."
- CWChris Williamson
Did it teach you much about yourself?
- JCJimmy Carr
Um, I don't know. I- I- I don't know what the... I suppose it's that thing of, like, it's a- a, it's- it's a feeling that's very difficult to put into words without, you know, it's a very sort of cliched thing, but it does feel like it's, um... I suppose it's- it's closed off, uh, an existential angst that I always had of, like, since losing my re- I lost my religion in my mid-20s, so quite sort of late. Uh, I was a- a Catholic and I- I lost my faith and was, uh, an atheist. And not having a- an afterlife is, it's a rush of blood to the head, right? So I've got to do something with this life. I've got to take opportunities and risks and have fun now because, um, a random collection of atoms coalesced into a form that can contemplate its own consciousness for 4,000 weeks and then disappears again. That's it. We're in this brief shaft of light between two oceans of darkness. And then suddenly you have kids and you go, "Oh, there is- there is a next life. It's them. It's the- it's the DNA. It's the... Dawkins was right, it's the- the gene."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
"I'm just the- I'm the vessel." And that's, I- I found that very... I found that incredibly comforting.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so you're saying that, uh, the denial of death and the death anxiety can be assuaged, at least in part, by making more of you?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. I think the- the- the death anxiety, the death is the, uh, um, uh, it's the certainty. It's, you know, it's coming- coming for all of us. I think the more that we, uh, talk about it and acknowledge it, then, uh, the better.
- CWChris Williamson
That idea around, "I- I will become a dad when I become a man." Uh, "I- I will," um...
- JCJimmy Carr
That- that's clearly, like, the movie of your life, the guys listening to the podcast, the girls listening to the podcast, the whole th- I mean, we're all screaming at the podcast-
- CWChris Williamson
Be a fucking father.
- JCJimmy Carr
... going, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Use the genes, use them.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yes. We sort of want you to be happy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I can't wait. I, you know, I keep on saying it. I- I- I really, really do look forward to becoming a dad. Like, I think it's gonna be, uh... I hope that becoming a father makes all of the things that I've done up to now feel like shallow, vapid attempts to get recognition from the world.
- JCJimmy Carr
You're club promoter, Love Island? Shallow and vapid?
- CWChris Williamson
DJ, model. Yeah, I know.
- JCJimmy Carr
Shallow, vapid, how dare you?
- CWChris Williamson
What can I say?
- 55:44 – 1:04:40
The Delayed Happiness Syndrome
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. I learned this idea called, uh, deferred happiness syndrome from Gwindon Bogle, "the common feeling that your life has not begun, that your present reality is a mere prelude to some idyllic future. This idyll is a mirage that will fade as you approach, revealing that the prelude you rushed through is in fact the one to your death." It's this strange-
- JCJimmy Carr
Is that not John Lennon? "Life is what happens while we're making other plans."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Like, it's- it's- yeah, it's a brilliant piece of, it's a brilliant observation. "Oh, once I've got this done, once I get my degree, then life will begin. Once I've- I've just gotta pass these exams and get to that thing and buy that house, and then I've just gotta pay this off, and then I've gotta do, and then we can start."
- CWChris Williamson
It's a very instrumental view of life that everything is done in order to achieve the next thing, so at no point do you actually arrive. It's a great question, okay, when are you going to arrive? Tell me, tell me when you're going to arrive at life, when you're gonna feel like you've actually got there.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, it's- we're gonna end up being Buddhists, aren't we? Because it's like, li- like, an- I- I- I do slightly disagree with the over-pathologizing life, but depression and anxiety, which I- I would rather call sadness and worry, but, you know, it's very serious for some people, right? And depression is always about the past, and anxiety is about the future. And in- th- the more you can just be in the moment, you kind of, you're sort of all right. You're sort of okay, you know, today, enjoying that thing of, like, enjoying this bit of the process.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
But it- it is that thing of, like, it's very, it's kinda easy, it's easy to say, I mean, I love that thing as- as well. I'm such a fanboy of the show.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
But they, the, um, 2D and 3D lessons.
- CWChris Williamson
Lessons, oh God, one of my favorites.
- JCJimmy Carr
But it's- it's so true in terms of, like, you can't say to a young person, like, the, uh, material possessions, uh, they're not gonna bring you happiness, because actually, they kinda will.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
But not having the watch won't make you happy.
- CWChris Williamson
Getting the watch.
- JCJimmy Carr
Getting it is fun. Having stuff is, getting stuff is fun. The journey is- is so fun, like, that- that thing of, like... And it's partly the dopamine of, like, it's- it's the, uh, the- the thrill of, uh, the acquisition, but the stuff that gives you pleasure long-term, it's like, it's- it's, um, it's feelings.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun. That's Andrew Tate, by the way. But you have this-
- JCJimmy Carr
Is it?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, that's Andrew Tate.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, no, like, you- you weren't expecting that.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) That's true. Um, but you had the-
- JCJimmy Carr
You know.
- CWChris Williamson
... you had the inverse of this when it comes to work rate, which I think probably classes as one of the best insights over the last few years. Everyone is jealous of what you've got. No one is jealous of how you got it.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I think that thing of, like, but it is that thing where you go when people say, "I wanna be famous," and, but- but they don't have a thing. They, it- it, like, for, I don't know what for, but it's the- but fame and fortune is the, a secular heaven.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
For- for fame, read heaven. It's the land of milk and honey. Everything's gonna be okay. And then, when you, it's kind of annoying when famous people complain about stuff, 'cause you're going, "But you, you got everything. No, you've just got different problems." It's, again, it's problems as a, as a- a feature, not a bug.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the- the issue you have, the issue that I think a lot of famous people have is, "I am certain that my inner void will be filled when I..." And the benefit that people who are not yet as rich or as famous as they want to be is that they still have the potential panacea for them to get to.
- JCJimmy Carr
What's that great Will Smith line?
- 1:04:40 – 1:11:22
The Nobility Of Drudgery
- JCJimmy Carr
- CWChris Williamson
I- I'm blown away by the schedule that you have. Um, I did actually want to read you an essay of mine, um, based on people that work very hard. The gastric band surgery of being busy. After undergoing gastric band surgery, peoples' risk of suicide goes up. That's perhaps unsurprising. Gastric band surgery is a big deal and can sometimes have complications, infections and painful outcomes. But one of the unseen reasons for the increased suicide risk is actually due to the surgery going right, not it going wrong. Many patients used food as a way to deal with issues in their lives, emotional challenges, loneliness, anxiety. After having their stomach shrunk, the ability to use food as a comforting crutch has been removed but the emotional challenges still remain. So, the coping mechanism has been taken away, forcing patients to face their issues without a release valve. I think there is an equivalent dynamic happening when you try to elevate your life, to take your sense of self-worth from things other than your work and your level of busyness. Let's say that in the past you used busyness as a chaos and a- as a way to distract yourself from feeling unwanted emotions. It meant that you didn't need to reflect on your decisions or sit in discomfort, that you're moving so quickly that you never fully connect with the things that are happening in your life. Lost relationships, disconnected friends, poor decisions and accumulated negative character traits are all swept away so quickly that you didn't even have time to consider them by manic work rate. Eventually you realize that chaotic busyness is not your highest calling in life. Maybe you value different things now. Maybe you've outgrown that phase of your life. Maybe you realize that busyness for busyness's sake is detaching you from connecting to your existence. So, what happens when this coping mechanism gets taken away? You are forced to face your issues without the highly distracting release valve that you're used to. The busyness anesthetic that you've used to previously rely on has now been removed, leaving you with two choices. Number one, ignore the lesson that chaos is not fulfillment and go back down this road that you just escaped from by force feeding your way through this figurative gastric band. Number two, actually learn to handle emotional discomfort without distracting yourself with work.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. That's beautiful. It really reminds me of that, um, Milan Kundera wrote this short book called Slowness and kind of the- the nub of the book, the message is that memory and speed are inversely proportionate.So the idea, like the best example I can think of is when COVID hit and the world slowed.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
You kind of took stock and remembered stuff and sort of had time to contemplate.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Like, in that boredom, I guess, of not being busy, not being chaotic-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... there was a real, "Oh," kind of look around. I don't know, I, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Didn't you have a Chairman Mao quote that was similar to this?
- JCJimmy Carr
What was the Chairman Mao quote? I don't know.
- CWChris Williamson
"You can't smell the roses from a galloping horse."
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good ... That's Mao. What? Again? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Who knew Chairman Mao ... (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Look, we can take good shit, we can take good shit from Andrew Tate and Chairman Mao.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
As long as it's good shit.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the headline. 'Cause that's really who you need to be associated with right now to help rehabilitate your, your public image.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Chairman Mao and Andrew Tate.
- JCJimmy Carr
Uh, yeah, but it's that the, uh, it's, it's true. Like, slowing down once in a while is, uh, is, is very good for you.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
And, and finding that balance in life. But I think, um ... I don't know, I think working hard's not ... It's also, like, I know people that really work hard. Like, I work hard in showbiz. Like, are the hardest working man in, in comedy. Yeah, it's like being the best looking guy in the burns unit.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Right? It's not, it's not really a flex.
- CWChris Williamson
People that work hard.
- JCJimmy Carr
'Cause even if I do two shows a night, oh my God, sometimes I have to work for four hours.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
I'm not sure I'm gonna be okay. Like, what are you ... It's, it's nothing. Like, there's people with real jobs that work really hard, and there's people actually that don't love their job, that they, they work in order to facilitate a life that they love. Well, great. Good on them. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's an honor and there's a worth in that. I think we've slightly lost that in our society, if I'm honest with you. Like, the hero of the working man that provides for his family, puts food on the table and a roof over their head, fucking great.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I th- it's, that's a good point that, um, we've sort of pedestalized passion so much that we assume the only reason that anybody does a job is because they want to do it, and there is a- an additional type of nobility that comes along with drudgery. You think, "Well, not only do you do this thing, which is maybe hard, but you don't want to do it, but you do it anyway."
- 1:11:22 – 1:17:22
Taking Pleasure From The Ordinary
- CWChris Williamson
There's a line from, uh, Visakan Varasamy. He says, "I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things." And this is an idea I've been thinking about recently. The, there is a kind of embarrassment in the modern world at taking pleasure from ordinary pursuits. This sort of sense that my ... The things that I feel particularly proud about and that I take a sense of self-worth from and fulfillment, they should be grand. Because how feeble, how shallow, how unimpressive a life it is that lying in a hammock for a couple of hours can be one of the greatest sources of joy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, you're supposed to be base jumping from the, the edge of a skyscraper w- you know, just off the back end of some VIP trip to Ibiza to go and watch ... You know, it's supposed to be this grand thing. And that line, "I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things," I think is a pathology of the modern world.
- JCJimmy Carr
Should- should we quote Naval? I mean, he's the best of us. "If you're not happy having a coffee with a friend, you won't be happy on a yacht."
- CWChris Williamson
On a yacht. Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
I did have coffee with a friend on a yacht recently and went-
- CWChris Williamson
Yay, I've done both.
- JCJimmy Carr
... "This is, this is good."
- CWChris Williamson
It's even better.
- JCJimmy Carr
I'm en- I'm enjoying all of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
This is great.
- CWChris Williamson
It is better.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's a big boat.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. But no, there, there's an interesting, um, there's an interesting challenge there, I think, for people that are perennial overthinkers, because a lot of them will feel things more deeply than they should do, including the shame of feeling things more deeply than they should do. That's this odd sort of recursive loop.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.Are you en- are you allowing yourself to enjoy anything at the moment?
- CWChris Williamson
Y- I'm trying to as much as I can.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, look, some of the things that I've learned, this, this celebration thing is gratitude and action, I think is a, a, a beautiful way to summarize something that I've kind of been floating around. I'm trying to get... I'm trying to build a studio and an office here in Austin because I basically took the working from home pill during COVID and then never realized that COVID had finished. Just, I'm just gonna, you know, solopreneur degenerate lone ranger my way through this thing. But we hit a million subs and I got to ring Dean. We hit two million subs and I think I broke off from work for a little while. I hit three million subs on a plane, and I just didn't... You know, it's, it's just another thing that happens despite it being something that we worked toward for a long time. And look, you might go, "Well, you're not doing it for the subscriber count." You go, "Okay, so at what point are you going to allow yourself to arrive? When are you actually going to celebrate this sort of a thing?"
Episode duration: 1:54:12
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode f2UK2saipp4
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome