Modern WisdomSigns From the Body You Should Never Ignore - Dr Tara Swart
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,835 words- 0:00 – 2:05
Why Do We Ignore Our Instincts?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean when you talk about trusting our instincts?
- TSDr Tara Swart
I think it's, it's, uh, a return to something quite primal and physical. So I think in, in this modern world, we've, we, we overthink everything, we try to rationalize everything, we prize logic above anything else, and I'm, I'm sort of talking about using intuition as well as logic.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is that we are laying at the feet... Or why, why is it that we're dispensing with sort of the wisdom that comes from instinct? If it's something that is sort of more ingrained, why is that being pushed to a side?
- TSDr Tara Swart
So I think it, it goes back to when the outer cortex of our brain grew from being a sliver around the limbic system, which is the size of, uh, your clenched fist, and that's when we could articulate speech and we could, like, plan better for the future. And so then we sort of prized those things more than the primal instincts that we had relied on before. And then if you fast-forward to much more recently, until about 30 years ago, we didn't have sophisticated scanning technology that could actually show us things like how emotions and intuition work in the brain. So it just, I think, felt safer to rely on something like logic that makes more sense, and then if you also add in the rise of technology, um, it feels like it's counterintuitive but I actually think this is where intuition and emotion and, and creativity and vulnerability are going to become superpowers, whereas, you know, they've sort of been put lower down than logic and rationality.
- CWChris Williamson
Why would you say superpowers?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Because I think they're things that technology and AI won't be able to emulate or, you know, actually use in the same way that we can.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Well,
- 2:05 – 6:14
Choosing What Feels Right Over What is Right
- CWChris Williamson
I, I always think about this. It's kind of interesting that we had the scientific revolution and, you know, I, I remember when it was early 2000s and I was starting to listen to Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins or d- d- Sam Harris or whatever, and it was very seductive to dispense with wishy-washy mythology and archetype and, uh, you wanted something that felt more rigorous and that you could prove, and, you know, we had this amazing boom in loads of areas of psychology, and, and then 20 years later, the replication crisis has come along and decapitated tons of the studies that we all thought were part of the physics of the human system. And now how many people refer to themselves as an agnostic because they're terrified of calling themselves an atheist? Because it's, it feels sterile. We kind of had this weird sense that we were going to be able to prove the world to us.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, you know, physics has kind of stalled for the last, like, 60 years or so. It hasn't really developed anything that's been that new. And I think people have got this sense that even if stuff can be literally unproven, it can be functionally useful in the same way as, "Ha, well, maybe my gut instinct, I can't give you on a spreadsheet or I, I can't fully dissect why I felt that thing-"
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... but I've noticed that when I rely on that sense, the outcomes that I get, my decisions tend to be better even though they're, uh, less explainable." And, uh, I wonder whether we're going back to a focus on effectiveness, uh, over rigor, if that makes sense.
- TSDr Tara Swart
You've put that so beautifully, and I think it's a real sort of modern dilemma, and I almost feel like where you get to the, the top or the peak of feeling, you know, of what you can prove, of what you can explain, it's almost like you then do a 180 and you actually ask yourself, "What feels good? What feels right?" Um, you know, how, how do things pan out when I ignore my gut instinct and I ignore those red flags and I go with what I think is the right thing to do, you know, as deemed by modern society? Um, and I think you're right. A really big question is d- do the things that can have value to us, that can make us happier and more connected and more at peace, do they actually all have to be measurable and proven? Like, I'm, I'm starting to, even as a scientist whose, you know, career has relied on rigor for so long, I'm starting to question that. Um, if you look at the rates of mental illness around the world now, if you look at, you know, how lost and lonely and disconnected and unhappy and anxious people are, something, something hasn't worked about what we, you know, have, have for so long now. Let's say at least in your and, and, and mine adult life thought was, was the right way to be.
- CWChris Williamson
It is, it is a strange horseshoe to come back around to this. I mean, what's the, uh, the longevity study? Is it the Harvard Longevity Study, that longitudinal thing, uh, looking at, uh, basically the number of friends that you have is the most, the single most predictive, uh, f- way more predictive than smoking, going to the gym, obesity, body weight, everything. And, uh, th- it's almost strange that something that feels right, it feels like when we're connected we feel good, had to go through an 80-year study to then come back out the other side to be out now by the standards that we want to judge things in the modern world. You can justifiably say this is good to the thing that intuitively you kind of knew all along.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, and I think that it's when times are really tough that you actually realize things like having...... a really supportive inner circle, having a large group of friends, h- how much that actually means, um, what a difference it makes.
- 6:14 – 8:11
Is There a Difference Between Instincts and Intuition?
- TSDr Tara Swart
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a distinction between instinct and intuition and trusting your gut? Ho- Are these the same thing? Do they differ in a meaningful way?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, I mean, I think the words are used really interchangeably, but I like to make a bit of a distinction. So I think that intuition is wisdom and the ability to use your judgment that's based on patterns that you've picked up through life lessons. And that these are stored deeply in the- the limbic system that I mentioned, um, all the way down to the gut neurons. But actually new research now, um, with the serotonin hypothesis particularly, which I'd love to tell you about, shows that that wisdom can also be held in the tissues of the body like the fascia and the muscles. Instinct i- is a good thing too, but sometimes your brain will take shortcuts to protect you, and it's acting in- in such a primal way that that's more related to survival like when we, you know, we lived in Paleolithic times than what actually helps us to thrive now. So I think some, you know... And that's why I always say you have to run it alongside your logic. It's your brain, you know, has this loss avoidance gearing, so it'll- it'll work much harder to keep you safe from losing something than it will to allow you to take a healthy risk to get a reward. So I think instinct can sometimes actually not benefit you, and that's when you've got to use your logic as well, or you've got to like, you know, run it by a friend and see what they think too, so that you get that sort of perspective. But intuition, if you learn how to hone it, and really listen to it, and access it, and trust it, and- and live your life guided by it, I think is- is you know an amazing way to live.
- 8:11 – 11:53
What is the Serotonin Hypothesis?
- CWChris Williamson
What's the serotonin hypothesis? What- what are we talking about when we talk about gut instinct and things being held in the body?
- TSDr Tara Swart
So actually up to 95% of serotonin is produced in the gut, or at least outside of the central nervous system. And that serotonin can't cross the blood-brain barrier. So where people feel that serotonin is the mood hormone, mood is actually one of its very- very less significant functions, and the word serotonin itself comes from serum and tone. So serum is to do with the liquids in the body, blood plasma, and tone is to do with the action of that hormone in constricting or dilating the vessels throughout the body that supply the oxygen and nutrients to the tissues, and that's why, um, you know, most people have heard of the book The Body Keeps the Score which speaks about how trauma is held in the body, and you can understand that if you've been traumatized and it's made you like change your posture in certain ways, you know, to sort of brace yourself against the- the- the source of the trauma, th- that could become ingrained in patterns in your muscles, but the serotonin hypothesis says that when stress causes constriction of your capillaries, it actually has an action on the tissues of the body like the fascia, which is the connective tissue that connects up all the organs and- and muscles and things, and that that's how trauma is stored in the tissues of the body, and so it makes sense to me that intuition or hidden wisdom, because you can't remember everything that you've experienced in your life, but it- it gets laid down as- as patterns, um, that you use to make your- your judgments about things, that that hidden wisdom could also be held in the body by the same way that trauma is held in the body through the serotonin, um, mechanism. So- so I think where previously I've spoken about intuition as potentially a very strong mental faculty and that you can access it through journaling, through meditation, um, through practice of- of you know trusting it, there's a whole other element now of bringing in the physicality aspect to access your intuition even more, so combining the mind and the body, um, to you know release or access this- this wisdom. And- and actually how that would show up would be, for example, in visceral reactions to things. So like if you ever experienced something and had a shiver down your spine or goosebumps on your arms. Um, I mean certainly in my friendship group if we, if someone says something that really resonates emotionally or you feel like that you know intuitively that feels right, we will tend to say things like, "Oh, that gave me goosebumps," or "That gave me chills." So I think that's the way to start.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think is happening there?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, I actually really tried to, um, dig into the research on that for my book, and we know that... So all we can really prove scientifically is that when you experi- experience a strong emotion, there is an action of, um, the hair follicles making your hairs stand up on end. I tried to find research to say that it could be connected to a strong intuition. We're not there yet, but I think those two things are kind of connected. And- and again going back to how we started, it feels right that that could be the case. You know it- it definitely aligns for me with that feels right intuitively when I get goosebumps.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 11:53 – 21:27
How Can We Determine What Feels Right?
- CWChris Williamson
I guess the interesting thing is what does it mean to say that we know something but we don't know why we know it? That's this sort of sense that people have, right? That's right and if you were to say why, they go, "I don't know. It just feels right."
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's what you mean, that...... we have limited capacity in terms of being able to, um, explain our memories and explain sort of the sense that we have and the value judgment around things. But i- we are shaped by all of the experiences that we have in more subtle ways. I guess it's like an aggregate, uh, of all of our life experiences. Um, but yeah, what- what does it mean to say that we know something but we don't know-
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... why we know it?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Well, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it, Chris? But I think, I think that connects back to what we were saying about, um, having friends and longevity, because your tribe provides you with psychological safety. A really good group of friends should absolutely challenge your thinking if they don't think, uh, you know, that it's- it's potentially serving you right. But if, for example, I say, "You know, I can't explain why, but intuitively, it feel- this feels like the right thing to do," most- most of my experience is that the people around me will validate that, will say, "I trust your intuition. When you go with your intuition, it usually works out right." Um, and that als- you know, that sort of- that safety and that trust helps you to take healthy risks. And what you need to do is gather data to show yourself that when you trust your intuition, um, the outcome is good. Now, of course, you won't always know what would have happened if you'd made a different decision.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
And I do think that there's an element of it which is like, make your decision either way, and then make it work.
- CWChris Williamson
How can we tell the difference between an anxiety-driven thought and a genuine intuitive insight? Because these two things, I have to assume, are gonna cross over a lot.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
People are nervous about change. "I knew that I shouldn't have done that decision. That's not the way, that didn't feel right to me." Well, yeah, but you've got a bias against change.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So how do you know that it isn't just our cognitive processes stepping in, o- o- our normal sort of mental models biasing against or for lots of different things, uh, and genuine intuition?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah, that's, it's a really good question, and I actually get asked that question quite a lot on social media, so I think this will resonate with a lot of people. I think it's related to what I've just said about gut instinct or instinct versus intuition. Um, I think journaling could be a really good way of reflecting on that and working it out for yourself. And when you said, you know, whether it's against or for a certain decision, I think anxiety is usually against, so that's, like, just the simplest way of- of, um, try, starting to separate the two. For me, my personal experience is when I feel nervous and excited, even though the nervous part is kind of, you know, the brain, the hippocampus and the amygdala will get together, so the memory part of the brain and the emotion part of the brain will get together and remind you of all the examples of the times that you took a risk and it went wrong-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... to stop you from taking a risk. Um, but if you, you know, have honed your intu- intuition and you trust it and maybe you run it by, you know, someone else that you trust, then you can, you can override that. Um, so, you know, it is about working it out for the individual, but I'm hoping that maybe my personal experience of saying, "I'm nervous and excited at the same time"-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... that's been the case just before the biggest successes of- of, you know, everything in my life.
- CWChris Williamson
Are there certain categories of decisions you think that are more, that lend themselves to being gut and instinct/intuition driven and advised, and are there others that you should be a little bit more ... Are there some that should be bottom-up and some that should be more top-down?
- TSDr Tara Swart
I think so. I think the classic one, really, is when ... So in a romantic relationship, when it's starting to unravel and it's clearly going to end and should end, but because of the sort of sunk cost fallacy, people think, "Well, I've invested so much in it, you know, I don't want to be back on the market single again, so I'll just try, you know, I'll keep flogging a dead horse and try to make this relationship work." And that's when you ignore red flags. I think everyone's been there, you know, you- you look back and think, "I stretched out that torture out for much longer than I needed to." Um, but, you know, if you can learn from that, if- if that's happened to you once or more than once before, then, you know, something that you can say to yourself and journal about and meditate on is, you know, "The next time I feel that this relationship is on the rocks, I need to make a quicker and better decision about, you know, whether there's a way of both people trying to start again and really make something right, or whether it's just better to, you know, move- move on and- and kind of heal yourself and- and give yourself a, you know, a different chance."
- CWChris Williamson
You're saying that when you encounter situations like that, trying to write out some spreadsheet breakdown of the fors and againsts... Have you ever, uh, read the list that Charles Darwin wrote when he was trying to decide whether or not to get married?
- TSDr Tara Swart
No. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Oh. Uh, it's slightly niche. I'm aware that that's a, a, it might sound like a slightly niche thing, but it is, uh, it- it's- it's phenomenal. So Charles Darwin was unsure whether he should get married, so he made a list. The document has two columns, one labeled marry, one labeled not marry, and above them, circled are the words, "This is the question." On the pro-marriage side of it was, "Children, if it please God. Constant companion and friend in old age who will be interested in one. Object to be beloved and played with." After a reflection of an unknown length, he modified the foregoing sentence with, "Better than a dog, anyhow.""He continued, 'Home and someone to take care of house, charms of music and female chitchat, these things good for one's health, but terrible loss of time.' Without warning, Darwin had from the pro-marriage column swerved uncontrollably into a major anti-marriage factor, so major that he underlined it. The issue, the infringement of his marriage on his time, especially his work time was addressed at the greater length in the appropriate Not Marry column. 'Not marrying,' he wrote, 'would preserve freedom of to go where one likes, choice of society and little of it, conversation of clever men at clubs, not forced to visit relatives and to bend in every trifle to have the expense and anxiety of children, perhaps quarreling, loss of time, cannot read in the evening, fatness and idleness, anxiety and responsibility, less money for books, and if many children, forced to gain one's bread.' Even experts in mating and evolution struggle with big decisions." That's from Russ Roberts.
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs) Um, I'm just actually really laughing about the fact that I don't think much has changed in that time. I would say that my male friends, um, who are all big fans of you, by the way, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Game recognizes game, Tara.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Aw. Yeah, would say some of those same things, would, would kind of say, "I don't know if I can invest in a relationship because I'm so invested in building my business and it would distract me from that." And, you know, I sort of try to help them to understand, but this is what I would say to Charles Darwin, like, things like freedom to travel and go where you want, if you're with the right person, you've got that freedom anyway.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, and, you know, you can have the charming female chitchat and also have the clever gentleman's chat. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- TSDr Tara Swart
You know, so where romantic relationships are involved, there's obviously, like, hormones and emotions that really buy into the decision-making, so that's why I think when a relationship's going wrong, that's where it, you know-
- 21:27 – 23:34
When Logic, Intuition and Emotion Clash
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how many people are struggling or how much pain and tension exists in people's lives because those three things are in conflict with each other.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
They have a sense of something logically, they have a sense of something emotionally, and they have a sense of something else intuitively-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and that trying to navigate that friction and that tension is, uh, uh, a source of probably, like, decades of, for some people, weird purgatory.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah, I think a lot of people, and I think sometimes... So, so what I've seen sort of psychologically, whether with, with patients or, or coaching clients, is that if your intuition, your creativity, your motivation was ridiculed as a child, that's when you f- have a, you know, a bigger fear of trusting intuition.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
You know, i- or if you have that sort of expectation of, of being perfect, of getting ten out of ten, then you would value logic and, you know, what, what is deemed the right thing to do rather than necessarily what feels right to you more, so you find it harder to access that. And something that's been really effective with my clients is where you hear the voice of your intuition, but there's a critical voice that comes in that doesn't encourage you to go with that, it's helpful to identify that as not your own voice. Sometimes people specifically will say, "You know, my mother was very critical, so I, I-"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
"... remind myself that that's actually my mother speaking to me, not me." Um, but you don't have to necessarily identify the person. You... If you just can separate yourself from that voice, then you can ask yourself a question like, "Okay, Kris, what would you advise your brother or your best friend if they came to you with this?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
And if you're able to take that one step away from being so, like, in a situation yourself, that can be really helpful. But equally, going to your brother or your best friend could be, you know, helpful to, to chat that through.
- 23:34 – 28:35
Which Archetypes Struggle with Intuition?
- TSDr Tara Swart
- CWChris Williamson
When it comes to the sort of archetypes of people that you've seen who struggle with intuition or trusting their intuition, hearing it-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... what are the common, uh, y- what are the common avatars? What's the type of person who struggles with that sort of a thing, and w- and what are the impediments that they've done, th- the sort of things that they value in life, the way that they show up, the way that they, um, uh, prioritize certain modes of, of, of thinking or decision-making over others? Is there a, is there a trend that you've noticed?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um-I mean, the, you know, these are sort of quite general and a bit stereotypical, but I'm gonna go with them anyway 'cause I think it makes sense. I think because intuition is intangible, so people who are in certain industries that are either very logical or technical, um, tend to think that things like creativity and intuition that are intangible don't exist, or they have p- there's a strong belief in certain types of people, like let's say engineers, scientists, um, lawyers, that they're not creative. Um, but it depends how you define creativity. So if creativity is about painting or acting or dancing or music or something, then it may be that you haven't excelled at those, um, activities. But if you see creativity as joining the dots in a way that not everybody else is capable of, seeing patterns where they're not obvious to other people, a lot of people in these industries, and particularly people that I teach at MIT, the leaders, will say, "If that's the definition, then yeah, I am creative 'cause I can definitely do that." And I think there's a little bit of an overlap with that and then trusting your intuition, and what I've definitely seen is people, as they get older and wiser, are much more likely to be okay with saying that they would make a really big important decision based on intuition.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's interesting. Is there any data on that, uh, that you've looked at? Older people are more prepared to make decisions that they can't reverse engineer and write on a spreadsheet?
- TSDr Tara Swart
I've definitely seen that with my, my business coaching clients and the sort of age range of people that I'll teach in a class at MIT. So, I mean, you know, let's say 10 years ago when I started teaching about intuition, people genuinely said, "I'm obviously not going to make a high-stakes decision like hire or fire based on intuition." And actually it was absolutely the older guys that then chimed in and said, "That's the exact way that we would make that decision." And that's because, you know, you've, you, 'cause you've had 20 extra years of, of seeing patterns, um...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
And on the odd occasion I've coached someone really young, which I h- don't do a lot, what I found is that where you help someone to understand a way forward through patterns that they've experienced in their life before, there just isn't enough data if someone's 18 or 20 for them to really, you know, rely on that. So it... Wisdom is, is what it is, because it takes time.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I suppose in some ways you might say, um, look at these older people. They have decided that the best course of action is actually to trust your intuition. But when you r- remember that intuition is this sort of weird aggregate of all of your experiences, if you're 18, maybe it's not such a good idea-
- TSDr Tara Swart
No. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to trust your intuition-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Very true.
- CWChris Williamson
... because your intuition probably sucks and is actually maybe going to be more at the mercy of anxiety-induced thinking and confirmation bias and anchoring bias and social consistency and a desire to be seen as someone that's getting things right, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like, do you see almost... uh, y- you would perhaps advise people to be, uh, less logically driven as they get a little bit older?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and if you think about the fact that... So, and hormones, by the way, so that, you know, hormones are having a massive impact around that sort of teenage and early, early 20s, and what we understand now about how the brain matures is that it's actively growing and changing, and therefore more liable to ir- irrationality until we're about 25. So we used to think, you know, 18, you're an adult, you stop growing, your brain has, you know, kind of reached what it's gonna be for you as an adult. We kn- we know that's not true now, and actually it's very accurately reflected in society where more and more, children are still financially reliant on their parents on, into their early 20s, um, and that actually kind of makes sense. If you think about where somebody would have been sort of given a briefcase at 18 and sent out into the world, um, (laughs) that doesn't match up to what we see about how the brain matures.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Okay.
- 28:35 – 36:21
The Effect of Brain and Gut Health on Intuition
- CWChris Williamson
When it comes to the role of inflammation and brain function, have you looked at how this can potentially step into our ability to make good decisions?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. So, so brain fog, which is basically where you can't make good decisions, you can't access your intuition, um, the stem of, of that, the s- basically the root of everything that goes wrong is inflammation, um, the root of most physical ailments and clouded access to your mental faculties. So when we are, you know, even if it's low-level chronic stress or acutely stressed or anxious, we have higher levels of the stress hormone cortisol, and cortisol has a... basically, it, it causes widespread inflammation in the body, and this also causes dehydration in the h- in the brain-body system. And just, you know, a small percentage of, um, dehydration can negatively affect your decision-making skills. Um, by the time you realize you're thirsty, you're way too dehydrated to be operating at peak, you know, sort of brain power. And, you know, what we really want to be doing is having the blood flowing around the brain with all that oxygen and nutrients going to the, the centers for our highest functions, like cognitive flexibility, emotional regulation, um, creative thinking, um, being able to override biases. But if we've got high levels of cortisol, then the brain actually stops sending blood flow to those higher functions and keeps it for survival mode, so I, I kind of call it low-power mode. So absolutely, um, intuition is not gonna be working well if you're, if you're under...... chronic stress or anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. What is it, uh, beyond the cortisol, what else is happening? Let's say that someone is in a period of stress, and they have been for a long time.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What else is flooding through their body, and, and what systems are turned on and turned off?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, I guess potentially, you know, adrenaline as well, although that's more of a- an acute thing. It's, it's kind of more the effects of that chronic stress, meaning that there are higher levels of cortisol kind of generally. And cortisol and oxytocin, the bonding hormone, the one that helps us to, you know, trust and, and seek joy and excitement, they're kind of on a see-saw. So if the cortisol levels are high, the oxytocin levels are low. Um, and like I said, the blood flow around the brain will be, um, changed because of the high levels of, of stress. And also, the cortisol, 'cause it's in the blood system and it's going around the whole body, it has a sort of corrosive effect on our immunity. So that can start with just small colds and flus, but it, you know, at the extreme end, it has led to heart attacks and cancers in people with really chronic stress. Um, so, you know, imagine that you're just that bit more run down all the time. Maybe you're getting like colds more of the time. Maybe you're having to take antibiotics, and that's wiping out your gut microbiome. Because intuition, this whole, you know, complicated sys- complex system is between the brain, the gut, and the gut microbiome, which is the trillions of good bacteria that contribute to, um, not just our digestion, but also that the bi- the sort of connection between the brain and the gut. Um, you know, one round of antibiotics will, will really negatively impact that. So, the best way to access... You can't access your brain directly, as it were, so a good way to try to optimize your brain is through your gut.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
And that's through what you eat, how much water you drink, whether you take pre- and probiotics, fiber, et cetera. Um, but if you're stressed, then you're more likely to comfort eat, you're more likely to crave sugar and caffeine. Um, it gets harder to drink enough water to actually keep your system in optimal hydration. Um, so, magnesium, a really important mineral that actually helps us to deal with stress, is, um, ironically actually leached out of the system by stress to the point that you can't actually eat enough leafy greens and nuts and seeds to replenish that. So then you need to start supplementing. Um, and, you know, the best way to, I think, work out if you're magnesium deficient, apart from you can get a blood test, is if you have a twitchy eyelid or like just little, you know, micromuscular twitches. That's often a good sign.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Hm.
- CWChris Williamson
I used to get that when I was club promoting. So I would run nightclubs and, and stay up till super late and drive back from Manchester to Newcastle and get in at 5:00 AM and then go and work again the next night and stuff. And, um, if I had, during freshers' week, so Newcastle had its week, and then there was a week off and then Northumbria had its week. So it was a three-week period where I basically didn't sleep. And, uh, reliably after about 10 days, everybody would come into the office, and everyone looked like a pirate because everyone had one, had one eye or both eyes, if you were really pushing it hard. Um, just on the point around optimizing gut for brain health or optimizing gut for sort of systemic health there, I'm always a little confused, and even the best guys on the planet seem to sort of need to hedge a lot of their conversations around this. When I talk about, you know, should we be taking lactobacillus and, and probiotics and prebiotics, and it... How much can you generalize? And how much is each person's individual microbiome such a fingerprint that you kind of need to go and get a very personalized approach to this? And obviously, that makes it way less accessible, which kind of sucks. What- w- are, are there general rules? What, w- how do you come to think about this when you're giving out advice?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah, so there are, um, companies in the UK and the US where you can send in a stool sample, and they can personalize what, which probiotics you should take or which strains of bacteria should be in the probiotic that you take. There are a few probiotics that are backed by a lot of, um, clinical studies. Um, I don't know if I'm en- allowed to mention names or not.
- CWChris Williamson
You can men- and shouldn't... You can mention whatever you'd like.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, so Seed, um, is one that's backed by a lot of clinical trials. And so unless you've got a particular, um, particularly poor immune system or ill health or something, that one's probably gonna be good for, like, somebody who's quite healthy. So, when I travel, I take that one because the one I use at home is a liquid. I can't take that with me. Um, I personally have tried several different probiotics, and because I rely on my intuition very heavily, I can feel which one is right for me. Um, and I understand that not everyone can necessarily do that.
- CWChris Williamson
You've got to use your intuition to work out whether you're strengthening your intuition. Yeah, that-
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... can be a bit of a challenge.
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs) Um, so like I said, like, you know, I do rely on my intuition quite heavily, but I also... And I eat really healthily, like a wide variety of plant products every week, fermented foods, um, but I also take a probiotic all the time. So I, I think, like you say, people, you know, want to hedge. But I, I think the best truth you can say is what you do.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, I'm not saying that everyone should do that, but that definitely works for me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 36:21 – 43:18
How Do Relationships Impact Our Intuition?
- CWChris Williamson
How, how about the role of o- the, the people that are around us in influencing our ability to tap into our intuition? You know, it seems...... every week. There's some new study coming out about how the sort of people that we spend our time around somehow influences in ways that we maybe wouldn't have realized previously, but certainly it's a big impact. W- what is there to say when it comes to good instinct and intuition and the people that you spend your time around?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Okay. I want to start with something else and then get, make my way back to that. So the person that you live with, and sleep with, and, um, share bodily fluids with, and- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Okay. Yeah, go on.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... um, and even share, like, crockery and cutlery and stuff, you, um, your immune systems sort of impact each other. So the person with the stronger immune system is actually going to donate, um, immune cells to the person that's got a, a poorer immune system.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, Tim Spector told me that. And, um, also when you are selecting your partner, the way that they smell is a reflection of their immune system through something called the major histocompatibility complex. And this isn't a predictor of relationship success, but children benefit from having what's called a bilingual immune system, so two immune systems that are really different to each other. And you're likely to non-consciously pick a partner who you like the smell of, 'cause that's actually indicating to you that they've got a different immune system.
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't this the argument for why humans kiss so much?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, well when you're kissing, you're obviously sharing your oral microbiome, but this is to do with smell. And I guess obviously if you get close enough to kiss, then you are smelling the person as well. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, at least I thought that that major, uh, compatibility index, I thought that that was, at least from some of my EP-coded friends, my evolutionary friends, that's... You know, you ask the question, why is it that humans do this? Other animals don't in the, the same sort of a way, and it releases a ton of neurochemicals that make us feel good. So there has to be a reason that we should be doing it.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so okay, if that's the, if the proximate reason is it feels good, what's the ultimate reason? What- what's-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it doing on the back end? Why-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is, why does it feel good?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, I- I'm open to other... Yeah, sharing microbiome stuff. I certainly know that this can go badly. I certainly know that if you've got something like, um, uh, H. pylori, that you can actually share that too, because that does get held. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Oh, no. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's, so th- this is a, a really interesting, uh, study that I found from Dr. Gabriel Lyon's team, that if one partner treats their H. pylori, the other partner also needs to be treated at the same time, or else you're just gonna fix one and then get reinfected, then fix the other, then reinfect. You need to kind of, uh, I guess, like, do a, a quarantine overall for everything at the same time, kill it entirely, and then I guess make sure that neither of you kiss somebody that's got H. pylori again.
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs) That's hilarious.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, yeah. So, so there's that. And then in terms of intuition, I think it comes back to the psychological safety that's provided by your tribe. Which is, you know, when you, when you discuss something and you can't, like, logically explain it, do people validate you or do they criticize you, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's so good. I love that. I mean, uh, you know, if I could gift something to the UK as a culture, certainly one of the things would be encouragement for people following their gut. Um, because I think a lot of the time there is a, a bit of a tall poppy syndrome thing that goes on, or a "You shouldn't stray too far from the beaten path" mate.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Uh, I have a friend that did that and it didn't go too well for him."
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, the blue sky... I, I know that America is, uh, got its problems and everybody thinks it's a oppressive, patriarchal, cisheteronormative super structure trying to keep everybody down, but at least they've still got a bit of a blue sky vision. So that's pretty cool, which is why they've got the same number of universities in the top 10, I think it's two or three, as the UK does, but they produce five times as many entrepreneurs-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- 43:18 – 51:13
The Benefits of Gratitude Practice
- CWChris Williamson
- TSDr Tara Swart
one of the-
- CWChris Williamson
What are the areas of life that people who don't rely on intuition will fall... will struggle with the most? I would imagine that risk-taking-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... has to be, has to be one of those things. Do you think about broad areas of life that people are going to struggle with if they are too heady, too top-down with this stuff?
- TSDr Tara Swart
I- I guess if you think about being entrepreneurial or creative or spontaneous and, you know, a risk-taker, then you're much less likely to do those things. I think you- you'd be more likely to, I don't know if I should use the word settle, 'cause it- it may be fine and- and right, but you're more likely to want something that's safe and predictable, um, and stable than something that potentially could be better, not for everyone necessarily, because it's too much of a risk because... And what that boils down to is that you don't actually trust yourself. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... I remember one of my sort of, you know, colleagues or peers said that, and I can't remember what came before this, but I really strongly remember him saying, "Whatever happens, I know that I can roll my sleeves up and- and deal with it." And I- I heard that, and I was like, "I want to be like that." Um, and I trained myself to be like that by changing my gratitude practice from what it naturally was always kind of external things. I think that's pretty normal. You know, it was- it was my ability to travel, my friends, my family, um, my career, and then I changed it to things like my resilience, my vulnerability, my creativity. Um, and as I repeated those internal resources, that helped me to get to that place of no matter what life throws at me, I will find a way to, um, you know, come out of it sort of like stronger.
- CWChris Williamson
That's cool. What is a good and bad journaling practice in your opinion? What are the areas that people mess up on and get it wrong, and what are the things where you think, hey, th- these are the principles of- of- of really making it work?
- TSDr Tara Swart
I don't really... I- I don't have, um, an idea in my head of what's a bad journaling practice. I guess the only bad one is like not doing it. Um, and- and that's really because there's so many things that happen that we forget, you know, and these- these can both be like triumphs and sort of obstacles, and you just don't learn from it if you just move forward to the next thing and you forget that it happened. So my biggest like game-changing tip for journaling is not actually to do with the journaling, it's to do with reading back over it, because that's when you see the repeated patterns. And you know, if it's in your own handwriting and you see, "I've done this same thing again," that... it can be really game-changing in like- in like making whatever adjustments you need to, to stop repeating patterns of behavior that aren't helping you.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I- the... What I was gonna mention there, at least for me, I think I filled up 10 daily gratitude journals over the space of about six years, and, uh, what I realized was I was treating it an awful lot like homework. I was- I was not going below the neck, so to speak. So-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I'd know that by the end of the day I'd have to think of three things that went well or whatever, three things I'm happy happened, and then in the morning, what are the things I'm grateful for? You know, the... Whatever. It was lovely. But I wasn't really connecting with it that much emotionally-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and I was very much taking a- a logician's, uh, approach to-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... something that was supposed to be trying to actually feel embodied. So-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that... I-I would say, at least in my experience, yeah, it's good that you've got a- a record of things that happened, and if you go back and read it, that can be a source of gratitude, right? "Oh, wow, I remember when that thing happened and how grateful I am for that." But it- it seems to me like you're making two tasks out of one. You're having to go back and revisit the thing in order to feel the thing as opposed to actually just sitting with it for a little bit longer. And, um, this is Rick Hanson's idea from Hardwiring Happiness, which I just think is- is much better. It's spending a minute just allowing it to sink from your head down into your chest a little bit. And, um-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so funny, isn't it? You've mentioned it a couple of times, this sort of sense that you put your hands on your head.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And you put your hands on your heart, and you put your hands on your gut.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And despite the fact that your heart doesn't think, right, like there- there's- there's no neurons that are available in your heart for thinking about stuff, but there is something about that visualizing, uh-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... process that allows us to tap into a different, uh, way of thinking, a different sort of mode of being.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, yeah, it gets perilously close to, uh... I don't know, to- to something that doesn't seem very rooted in science, and yet, as we said at the very start, it's something that most people find pretty effective. So you don't really need to sort of scrutinize it that much if you go, "You know, when I- when I think about opening my heart up to people, I feel more empathic." It's like, hey, guess what? Your heart doesn't have front doors on it, and it didn't open up in that way, and yet you felt like it had done. So I- I- I don't know whether we actually need to like scrutinize it too much.
- TSDr Tara Swart
No, and I think, you know, that is just... People like you and I, that's an analogy, but, um, at a event I did this week, someone, um, asked me to look into the HeartMath Institute, and, you know, they- they would disagree with what you've just said.
- 51:13 – 59:04
How to Train Yourself to Listen to Your Intuition
- TSDr Tara Swart
- CWChris Williamson
Let's say that there's someone who's listening, uh, for whom being too heady, struggling to tap into their intuition is- it feels like home to them. How would you advise those people to get started with, uh, first off, hearing intuition, and then secondly, the thing that was really important you said right at the start, is trusting the fact that if they follow it, that things might go well.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because it seems like the first step is, there's a little voice, there's a fleeting thought that, that appears, and wow, that voice, maybe I should actually listen to it and pay attention-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to it a little bit.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But there is a massive difference between that and, "I am going to use that voice to help me make a decision."
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And there is a certain type of pain of not being aware of it, but there's an extra special type of pain of being aware of it and not being, uh, not feeling compelled to be able to commit to it.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. Um, well, I, I genuinely think that conversations like this, um, you know, podcasts are so powerful now, and, and I think they help and change people in a really positive way. To answer that question scientifically, I would have to say that you d- you d- you should start by looking at the state of your gut and your gut microbiome. Because if that physical foundation isn't there, it's going to be harder to take that, you know, that leap sort of mentally. So making sure that you, you are eating a healthy and diverse diet with some fermented products in it, and maybe taking a probiotic for a while.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Once you feel like... And, and actually changing your diet can change your gut microbiome in, in a matter of days. So it's really actually one of those things that we can do that will have a, a positive effect very quickly. And a tip, a pro tip there is to eat in a way that acknowledges your genetic, um, ancestry. So for example, it's very likely that my gut microbiome would benefit from eating coconut-based products, less likely that yours would. Um, you're coming from the north and looking pretty Viking to me. So I would-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... think about (laughs) you know, what people... So for instance, you know, in the, in the Nordics, a high number of people are lactose intolerant. So it may be that, you know, that's something that you wanna avoid-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... too much of. Um, and you know, obviously different for different people depending on, on where you come from. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Just on that, before- but just before we move on, just to get real specific on that, uh, if someone has the time, is there a particular type of gut health test that you think is accessible i- in most places? Or can most people just get started with a broad-spectrum probiotic and eating some fermented foods? How important is it to be able to do the gut health test? And then what... Shy of me looking in the mirror and going, "I reckon I've got some Scottish ancestry. Look at those rosy cheeks."
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"Like, I, I should drink beer and haggis or whatever."
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like y- is, is there a little bit more of a rigorous way for people to get to this gut health thing?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, so in the US there's something called THRIVE, and in the UK there's the ZOE project. And both of them can give you, um, a, a breakdown of which strains of bacteria would be beneficial for your gut microbiome.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
In the absence of, of, you know, paying to do that, I think what you said about, you know, e- eating healthily, including some fermented products, and taking a, a good quality pro-bio- biotic is, is fine for most people. Um, and then, yeah, I mean, I think hopefully most people would be able to find out maybe just through asking their parents or grandparents, like what (laughs) , where their ancestry comes from.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
And, um, but, you know, if not, then I think that sort of...... like a Mediterranean diet is probably, like, a good one for most people.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- TSDr Tara Swart
And that means, you know, a lot of different colored plant products, olive oil, you know, basically the good fats, the hydrating foods. Um, dark, dark-skinned foods are, are really good for us because they've got polyphenols in, in the skin, so-
- CWChris Williamson
What's e- what's examples of those?
- 59:04 – 1:01:52
How Much Does Chris Trust His Intuition?
- TSDr Tara Swart
How much do you rely on your intuition?
- CWChris Williamson
Very limited, I would say. Uh-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Oh, really?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, very much so. Uh, I, I'm a pretty good role model for someone who moves very slowly with decisions, um, very, very risk-averse. Uh, basically all of the businesses that I've ever started, uh, none of them have failed, which suggests that I'm probably not moving quickly enough or breaking sufficient things, because I'm evidently leaving at least some amount of growth on the table in that I've only done things that are basically surefire wins.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, I've waited for a very long time... I waited for a long time before moving to the US. I've waited for long times before leaving relationships that I should have left. I've waited long times before making decisions and changes in careers that were almost obvious. Like my, my, uh, certainty level has to be so absurdly high, you know, it's like a 99.9% conviction ratio, before I'm prepared to do it. And, uh, in retrospect, things are obvious and you go, "Ugh, you could have made that decision six months earlier or two years earlier"-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... "or whatever." Um, or at- at- at the very least, you just didn't need to go through all of this time vacillating about whether this decision was the right one to make or not.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You just sort of knew. So it's not just the cost in terms of time, it's the cost in terms of mental cycles that you've-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... wasted going through-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... going through this. So, you know, it's of personal interest to me to try and work out how to tap into intuition, uh, a lot more.
- TSDr Tara Swart
That's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. But I also want to disagree with something that you said, which is that the peop- kind of people that would read my book, I don't think they are people that struggle with their intuition. I think the people that like my work are really into using their intuition.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
I literally live and die by my intuition. Um, and I met my first husband when I was 25, and we were the same age, did the same job, sit very similar levels of intelligence.... but he totally trusted my intuition. We made huge decisions like moving to Australia, because I just said, "I believe that's our destiny." And he was like, "Usually, y- you're right, so we'll go with that one."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, so obviously that was very validating for my intuition as well. Um, and I recently shared something with him that's a story in my new book that involves him, and I wanted to let him know about that before it came out and check that he was okay with it. And it was about a, um... Now I have to admit, a prophetic dream that I had. And I said to him, "But I don't think I'm psychic or anything." And, um, he messaged me later and he said, "I actually think you are." (laughs) So, um, and I really still don't think I am, but I think I'm very, very intuitive. Um...
- 1:01:52 – 1:04:43
What is the Difference Between Being Psychic and Trusting Your Intuition?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I mean, on a qu- a question on that, what is the difference between being psychic, like being able to see things that other people can't see, and just having such a difference in access to your own intuition?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
That- that is the same thing. Let's say that most people are walking around at 20% intuition access, and they're able to aggregate this amount, and you're able to aggregate way more.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That functionally is the same as you being able to see the future or tap into things that other people c- can't- can't tap into. You don't need an astral realm to be able to bring that to life, right?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. True, but I think, like, something like that dream, for example, didn't feel like it was within my control. It felt like it happened to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Whereas, uh, in terms of my intuition, I feel like it comes from my inner wisdom, it comes from my interpretation of things around me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, but I think you're right. I think they're on a spectrum. So there's something, you know... And I kind of want to try to stay quite rigorous here for you 'cause I know that you'll prefer that, but there are things called, um, claircognizance and clairsentience which are, I think, in between being intuitive and being psychic maybe or, you know, maybe they're up there with being psychic. I'm not really sure. But they're-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... um, they're... So clairaudience is like that you hear something and it's not coming from your own brain, and... Oh, I don't know. I was just gonna say, it's like an intuitive thing. But, um, claircognizance is just knowing something in your mind and knowing it's true, but not knowing why. Clairsentience, I think is feeling it in your body. Um, so there are people that, you know, that's their form of intuition, or- or, like, potentially, I think some of them, they think they're psychic. Um...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
So... Yeah, and I had a fascinating conversation last night about how... And apparently there's a movie about a mathematician that had a dream that worked out like a really complex situation or something. Um, so, you know, I think... I also, um, yesterday went in a driverless car for the first time. (laughs) Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, you were in- you were in the great state of California. Yeah, you were being driven around-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... by a robot.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. Um, and that's... You know, I was a kid that grew up on science fiction, so this was like science fiction becoming real life for me.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, and, you know, there are so many things that were science fiction when we were kids that are real life now. And I think there's gonna be leaps like that in the future. Um, obviously as a neuroscientist, where that's to do with altered states of consciousness or expanding your consciousness, that's very exciting for me to just witness-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... and be part of.
- 1:04:43 – 1:13:14
Receiving Signs from ‘Beyond’
- CWChris Williamson
What is something that you believe but can't prove to be true using your scientific method? What is something that you kind of accept as a ground reality as part of the physics of your existence, uh, but i- if I, like, get you to point to it on a map or write it out in an equation or show me the area of the brain or whatever, uh, it- it doesn't, it doesn't work in that language?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. Um, well, this is basically the topic of my new book, which is about receiving signs from what I call beyond. Um, and I mean, I think the closest we can get scientifically to that is Carl Jung's description of the collective consciousness. But where the science, you know, isn't backing that further at the moment is whether it's the source or the universe or God or, like, some sort of, you know, cosmic force. Um, and I think, you know, where I've talked about intuition going from just a mental capacity to being very much embodied and, you know, that's taken me to a next level with intuition, adding in the art of noticing beauty has taken my gratitude practice to the next level. Um, by cultivating that art of noticing, I've also then started noticing things that appear randomly, coincidentally, um, things that have symbolic meaning to me that I interpret using my intuition. Um, I have looked into the science of things like near-death experiences and terminal lucidity and dark retreats to examine the nature of consciousness and, you know, look at things like dualism and materialism to try to explain some of these things. But I think I've really come full circle to where we started off, which is, there are some things in life that I don't actually feel the need to explain.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, and, you know, as long as it's not harming anyone else. And, um... But this sort of... what I've been experiencing the last couple of years has totally changed the nature of conversations that I have in my friendship group. Um, people will send me photos of- of signs that they've seen or ones that they think might be for me. And, um...... yeah, it's been so interesting. It's become completely normal in, in like my circle. And now that I started speaking about it, I have been inundated (laughs) with messages from people. I had no idea it was gonna be like this widespread. I'm, I'm actually gobsmacked. Um, but it's, it's a nice feeling. And, you know, of course I'm sure I'll get criticized as well, but I'm actually okay with that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. I have a bunch of friends who I think, uh, give me a similar energy to the one that you do. Uh, one of my friends, Austin, uh, who drives a very nice Porsche, which is kind of rare in the city of Austin, Texas. We went to my birthday party a couple of years ago, and I remember we were walking to his car after we'd finished up, and, uh, he walked up to it and I was waiting for him to unlock it using the remote key-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and it wasn't locked. I was like, "You, you know, you left your car unlocked?" And he's like, "Oh, I don't lock my car." I was like, "What?" He's like, "Yeah, I don't lock my car. The universe has just got my back. I d- it's just something that I don't do."
- TSDr Tara Swart
Aw.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm like, "What?" And he is one of the most tapped in guys that I know. Every time that I'm around him, I feel very regulated, and he's done a metric fuck ton of self-work and all the rest of these things. And there's part of me that goes, "Dude, like are you really telling me that some quantum energy is gonna protect you from a guy that tries the handles of nice cars and does this thing?" And, you know, may- maybe one day he'll sort of live to regret that specific decision. But at least from my experience, people like you and people like him that kind of embody this sort of an energy, you live in a manner where even if you end up losing in the specific, you gain so much in the general-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that it doesn't really matter. It really doesn't. And, uh, there's a, a famous Bill Burr bit where he's on a, some talk show and this person's s- uh, he- he's explaining about why he's a little bit more of an optimist than people might expect given that he's kind of like a, a shouty, angry ginger man.
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And he says, "Things are going to be fine, and even if things aren't going to be fine, isn't it better off believing that everything's going to be fine?"
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"Because if it's not fine, you'll just deal with it when it happens?"
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And th- this is a, certainly an energy in the simplest form of this, a vibe, uh, that I would say the people who have it in my friend group and that I've met reliably seem to be more at peace, happier and more successful than the ones that don't. I'm like, okay, which, w- what do I think happened first? That they became successful and then reverse engineered this luxury belief? Or that their sort of, I guess you could kind of call it an abundance mindset and a trust in themselves happened, and off the back of that, they just started to see the good in things and they weren't as stressed, so they didn't get as sick. So that they did make decisions based on this aggregation of all of their life's experiences, so they didn't overthink things, so they didn't stop themselves from not taking risks when they should have done, so that they didn't stay and... All of this stuff together, it's just interesting. And, uh, you know, I mean, you mentioned before, you've s- probably correctly judged me as somebody that would be more on the side of, of rigor and materialism and can I prove it, but, you know, Rupert Sheldrake has been on the show, and I found him unbelievably compelling. I thought that his whole... Well, for the people that didn't, it sh- everyone should go back and listen to the episode after this one, actually. I think that would be a lovely, uh, second one to listen to. This is studies of dogs, uh, going to the window 10 minutes before their owners go home. Mm. Of, um, birds learning to be able to break into bottles of, uh, glass milk that only previous generations of birds had seen because they stopped putting milk out during the war. This is mice learning to go through mazes in LA, and then mice in New York being able to get through the same maze more quickly because of some weird... What is it he calls it? What's, what's that thing? Synch- not synchronicity. What is it he's got? What's the name of that thing that, the energy that goes across it all?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Not the collective consciousness?
- CWChris Williamson
No. It's a specific... Ah, it's, it's beaten me. It was a long time ago, that episode. Anyway, his stuff's fascinating. And, um, there is a bit of me, there is a latent bit of me that is built for this. My mom's a Reiki master.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Oh, really?
- CWChris Williamson
And has done it, has done it for 20 years. Yes. You would not s- you would not maybe guess that given who her son ended up becoming.
- TSDr Tara Swart
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but she's... A photo of the full moon every time there's a full moon. Angels, horoscopes, Reiki, distance healing, full works. And, um, there's, uh, the most sort of angelic temptation on my shoulder a lot of the time to kind of turn toward this a little bit more, and especially living in Austin, Texas.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's kind of like the, the woo, psychedelic capital of America.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
At least ri- at least right now. Um, so yeah. It's cool. It's cool. And I think the more, the more time that I spend around people who use that energy, uh, the better I feel.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And again, I don't need to explain why. I don't need to explain why that's the case. I just like being around my friend, Austin. I like being around the guys that, that, uh, talk in those sorts of terms, that have a bit more of abundance mindset, that don't second guess something that they kind of feel to be right. And, um, yeah.
- TSDr Tara Swart
I've got a few thoughts. Um, there's one thing that I was, was not going to say, but I'm going to say it now that you've mentioned your mom and said angels.
- 1:13:14 – 1:16:44
Can Signs Be Explained by Psychology?
- CWChris Williamson
you're a scientist. Can't all of these phenomena just be better explained by psychology? Wish fulfillment, memory biases, cultural conditioning, reticular activating system. You just bought that car and now, oh my God, that car's everywhere. Well, how do you know that it wasn't that you're just looking out for it more? Because you've said yourself, you are looking for them more, so you see them more.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So there is not just this sense that signs are being given to you, but that your effort toward it allows you to notice more. So how do you think about... Yeah, eh, could this not just be explained by psychology rather than metaphysics?
- TSDr Tara Swart
I think it could all, you know, it can all be explained by psychology. But I think... ju- uh, just in the same way that I said that science fiction is now, like, a lot of it's now real, I think in the next decade and decades, a lot of what we're talking about now, which is on the fringe of psychology and spirituality-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... is going to have further explanation. Let's put it that way. And I've, you know, I've delved into the potential explanations in, in my book. Um, and I love Rupert Sheldrake's work too, but also Professor Donald Hoffman, David Eagleman.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
You know, there's just a lot of stuff that we accept at the moment that can't actually be proven. Um, you know, Donald Hoffman says that the accepted, um, sort of formula, I guess, for want of a better word, that, you know, space-time is the construct of the universe can neither be proven or disproven, and he suggests that consciousness could be the way that the universe works. David Eagleman says this idea that the brain is like a radio and it receives signals from outside can't be proven, but it categorically cannot be disproven.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, so I just think, you know, it's interesting, it's interesting as a human, like, just living this existence, and obviously as a scientist as well, to be curious about these things.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, and I think there's a level of simplicity to what you described about your friend and me, just simplicity in the way that we live life-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
... that is beautiful and easy. Um, personally, my step changes in the way that I approach life and, and build my resilience has come from extreme hardship.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, and that's not gonna be the case for most people, but you know, extreme hardship can either push you to be bitter and negative about life for the rest of your life, or it can push you to be more grateful and more trusting than ever before. So, that's the choice that I've made.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that something you think that people should try to rely on a little bit more in times of hardship? That this could be the catalyst, the beginning of the alchemy that takes them from where they are now to some higher plane of existence?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Again, if you've given yourself evidence of that, then yes. Um, so very hard to do in the moment, obviously, and you know, even I'm not saying that I've thought that at the times of going through hardship. But definitely looking back, I can say, you know, two significant, um, periods of my life have definitely led me to becoming a better version of myself.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 1:16:44 – 1:20:43
What Might We Discover?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think, if you were to just put a couple of bets on the roulette wheel of science over the next decade to a few decades-
- TSDr Tara Swart
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... what do you think we might find out? Uh, what do you think we might be able to explain, uh, materially using that formulaic approach that we said previously that right now most people would be very skeptical of or would be mocked by sort of the current scientific community? Are there any, uh, top front-runners for that?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Bring it on, come on.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's not time to be shy now. We're an hour and a half in.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Okay. Um, well, I think areas that I'm particularly interested in the research around at the moment are longevity and psychedelics. But the one that I'm gonna say is the, y- is the frontier that, uh, I think that's we're starting to be open to look into is about what happens after we die. Um, so, yeah, I don't know how many decades that one's gonna take, but I think-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm...
- TSDr Tara Swart
... I think we are at the start of something where conversations like that are gonna happen more than they've happened for a very long time.
- CWChris Williamson
Who's the guy... Sebastian Junger? He did... I swear that Sebastian Junger, uh, had a near-death experience. Sebastian Junger had a NEA, an NDE, didn't he? Uh, this is, we said this before we started. Where, wh- how did we survive before... Yes, Sebastian Junger did have a near-death experience, and he writes about it candidly in his 2024 memoir, In My Time of Dying: How I Came Face to Face With the Idea of an Afterlife. Uh, in June 2020, while in his home, he was struck by sudden severe abdominal pain. He had a ruptured pancreatic artery, life-threatening, lost loads of blood. Previously an atheist, he remains so. However, this experience led him to question whether we really understand or fail to understand about consciousness, death, and reality. You, you know who Sebastian Junger is? He wrote the book T- Tribe, Tribes.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, phenomenal author. He's been on the show. And, uh, you, you and him, have a, have a look and I'll, I'll do an intro if you, if you wanna speak to him, although I'm sure that you can get him, too. Um, I think, I think that would be super interesting.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so what are you... It feels like a little bit of a full-circle moment, because you kind of laid the seeds of this with your first piece of work. This is now coming to land a little bit more. What's next?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, well, truly at the moment I'm, um, I'm kind of, like, at a fork in the road where I need to make some decisions about what's next, because, um... I've been so focused on, on the book coming out and unsure of what the response would it- to it would be. And it being so overwhelmingly positive, might actually change what I do next. So, it's really hard for me to answer that question. Um, but, uh, you know, as usual, I'm gonna go with my, with my gut. Um, I mean, you know, I was s- sort of, um... No, not I was. (laughs) I wa- so what I want to say is that, you know, leaving medicine was a huge, huge risk for me. I had a stable job. I would have had a job for life. I would have known exactly how my career was going to progress. And I left that and started from nothing. Um, and I'm really glad I did now. Um, and I, I kind of feel like I'm at another kind of position like that now, where I have to think about, you know, what the, the future is going to look like. But it's, it's exciting.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, as you said before, whatever it is that life throws at me, I will be okay. Uh, that's the wonderful
- 1:20:43 – 1:21:45
Find Out More About Tara
- CWChris Williamson
resilience. Dr. Tara Swart, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, Tara, you're great. Uh, I, I think you're a wonderful energy. And, you know, a much needed redress to maybe a too sterile and, um, highly scrutinous, uh, approach to a lot of this stuff. And I think, uh, uh, if, if nothing else, my mum is gonna absolutely adore, uh, the fact that she got a shout-out on this episode and she'll love your work too.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so where should people go?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
You got a fantastic new book. You got all of your stuff. Where should people go to check it out?
- TSDr Tara Swart
Um, I'm most active on Instagram at Dr. Tara Swart, and my website is taraSwart.com. And the new book, which is also going to be available on Audible with my voice, is called The Signs: The New Science of How to Trust Your Instincts.
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah. Tara, I appreciate you. Thank you.
- TSDr Tara Swart
Me too. Thank you so much.
- CWChris Williamson
Congratulations. You made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? Come on.
Episode duration: 1:21:45
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