Stereotypes In The Fitness Industry - Zack Telander | Modern Wisdom Podcast 168

1. 0:00 – 0:42

   CrossFit vs weightlifting identity and the recovery culture

   1. ZTZack Telander0:00

      For a weightlifter, if they don't snatch and clean and jerk well, well, their identity is now missing. So they're going to snatch and clean and jerk well, and they're gonna do whatever it takes to do that. CrossFitters can get theirs in the gym in so many different ways. So in-

   2. CWChris Williamson0:13

      There's more, more places to hide as a CrossFitter.

   3. ZTZack Telander0:15

      Yeah. Yeah, but when you're taking your shirt off and you're wearing your hot pants, you can't hide, right? And so for them, it's like, "I'm gonna get my nutrition locked in. I'm not gonna go party on the weekends. I am going to get enough sleep." You know? There's the recovery aspect that I really do feel like CrossFitters work on really, really hard, compared to powerlifters or maybe, maybe weightlifters.

2. 0:42 – 2:42

   Pre-workout routines, caffeine, and training on an empty stomach

   1. CWChris Williamson0:42

      Talk to me about what your favorite pre-workout drink is. What's your pre-workout of choice?

   2. ZTZack Telander0:49

      Uh, I, I love caffeine, so like, um, you know, there's... Uh, do you know who Omar Issa is?

   3. CWChris Williamson0:58

      No.

   4. ZTZack Telander0:58

      He's a, he's a, he's kind of, he's a YouTuber. Um, he actually does have a lot of good knowledge around, um, fitness and, you know, strength and culture and stuff like that.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:10

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ZTZack Telander1:10

      And, uh, his product is called Ouroboros or Ouroboros.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:15

      (laughs)

   8. ZTZack Telander1:16

      Um, and it's, it's really, like, clean. It's, there's only, like, five ingredients, you know? It's, like, caffeine, creatine, uh, beta-alanine, like, the five core ingredients to a pre-workout, and it's only 200 milligrams of caffeine. I usually try to take that a half hour before training. Um, and then I, I like to have a relatively kind of empty stomach before I take my pre-workout, so I, sometimes I will wake up, um, and, you know, I might have, like... I, I always drink, like, a, a green drink, uh, to get my greens in. And then I might just, like, take my pre-workout and go to the gym, like, without anything in my stomach. But if I'm gonna train a little bit later, like, say, (clears throat) like, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 PM, I'll have, uh, oats or, like, some sort of carb, and then I'll just chill for, like, two hours and then go. I will never really... Sometimes I guess I'll have, like, scrambled eggs too, 'cause, like, for me, it's really hard to get all of my protein in per day.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:28

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ZTZack Telander2:28

       So if I'm not eating protein for, you know, four of the hours of the day or five hours a day, and then I go to the gym and I come back, now I'm in this huge kind of hole where I have-

   11. CWChris Williamson2:40

       Yeah.

   12. ZTZack Telander2:40

       ... to gain back all the protein.

3. 2:42 – 5:20

   Protein targets, shakes, and why high-protein changes physique and weight class outcomes

   1. CWChris Williamson2:42

      It's the, it's the never-ending treadmill of trying to eat, uh, everyone that's listening that's got a diet that requires them to have high volumes of protein, and mine at the moment, my cals are, like, I think 210, two, 210 grams of protein per day.

   2. ZTZack Telander2:53

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:53

      Which isn't, like, ridiculous, but I'd say it's, like, moderate, moderate-high for someone who's-

   4. ZTZack Telander2:58

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:58

      ... like, in 80 kilos range. And, um, fuck, man. Like, you're right. If you get to-

   6. ZTZack Telander3:03

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:03

      ... 2:00 PM and you've not had any protein yet, like, that's gonna-

   8. ZTZack Telander3:06

      Exactly.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:06

      ... remainder of the day is gonna suck bad.

   10. ZTZack Telander3:08

       So, yeah. I mean, I do like to train empty stomach, ideal world, you know, like, um, or having a big meal and then chilling, letting it all digest, and then going to the gym. I'm not a believer in, like, eating a pre-workout meal. I don't like, I don't think that that's... I think that's kind of like bro-science-y type stuff. Um, and then, yeah, I just do caffeine, and then after, you know, I'm, I have to, you know, sometimes I wanna get 250 to 270 grams of protein, uh, because of my body weight, and, like, I have to have two or three shakes, you know, a day, just 'cause I can't... I don't like eating that much, like, chicken breast and, and meat. Um, but I do actually notice the difference on high protein. Like, I really, really do. Um, and-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Recovery, mood?

   12. ZTZack Telander3:57

       No, just fit, uh, physique-wise. Like, I don't, I don't... And that's something that I don't really care too much about, but it's nice to have, you know? It, it, as a weightlifter, your, you know, your primary focus is to be healthy and in shape so that you can perform what you need to perform. It's not about aesthetics. Um, but I know that, that if your aesthetics are right, there's a chance that your body composition is right, and therefore you're maximizing, um, your weight class, or, I- if that makes sense. You know, if you, you have too much body fat, you, it's too much weight for your weight class that is not usable. And so, um, something I've noticed on, like, a very high protein diet is that I can be a little bit more sloppy, if that makes sense, in-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:50

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. ZTZack Telander4:51

       ... you know, in the way that I eat. But that's a big stipulation. That's a big thing to do to try to get enough protein, um, because if you wanna get enough protein and eat poorly, it's not gonna happen, you know? If you wanna eat enough protein and go to, you know, McDonald's or Taco Bell, like, you're gonna get really fat or whatever. But eat enough protein, then you don't have to count, uh, your macros as hard or, or be as diligent. Um-

4. 5:20 – 9:47

   Cheat meals that aren’t equal: pizza vs wings (and what ‘relaxed dieting’ really means)

   1. CWChris Williamson5:20

      Well, there's, there's no, there's no cheat meal that's high in protein. No one's like-

   2. ZTZack Telander5:24

      No.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:24

      ... "Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm really gonna-"

   4. ZTZack Telander5:25

      You know what?

   5. CWChris Williamson5:27

      (laughs)

   6. ZTZack Telander5:27

      Actually, uh, one that's really surprising and, like, this is one of my things about junk food and cheat meals, is, like, I don't really like them unless they have high protein, and at that point, they end up having super high calories, if that makes sense.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:44

      Mm-hmm. What like?

   8. ZTZack Telander5:45

      So, like, uh, chicken wings.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:48

      Okay.

   10. ZTZack Telander5:48

       A chicken wings, actually, as far as, like, a cheat meal goes, they're, the macros are fantastic. High in protein, relatively low in calorie compared to, you know, pizza. Like-... pizza legitimately has nothing in it but calories and fat.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:06

       (laughs)

   12. ZTZack Telander6:07

       So those two, being cheat meals, are not the same, in the same ballpark-

   13. CWChris Williamson6:12

       Yeah.

   14. ZTZack Telander6:13

       ... in my opinion. Um-

   15. CWChris Williamson6:14

       But you, you still get to relinquish your diet, feel like you're not super restricted, and you get like that, you tick that box. You tick the "I let my diet go a little bit" box. But in one version of the world, you've just put, what, maybe like s- 800 grams of carbs and another 150 grams of fat-

   16. ZTZack Telander6:34

       Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:34

       ... probably into yourself with a pizza, versus like ... Yeah.

   18. ZTZack Telander6:37

       I don't know what w- with, with, uh, with chicken wings. But it's, it's stuff like that. Or a burger, right? A burger compared to a pizza. Those should not be in the same ballpark. Pizzas should be closer to ice cream, you know. Um, but anyways, the, the, the main point being is that high protein is not easy, um, but it does help a lot.

   19. CWChris Williamson7:00

       Yeah.

   20. ZTZack Telander7:01

       Um, especially for someone like me where I'm constantly worried about my recovery. Constantly worried. So like, to g- go in and do a bodybuilding workout, I don't want that to affect my mobility and my shoulders. Um, my hips, knees, ankles, joints that need to be very, very loose, um, and, and protected. I don't, uh, I don't wanna go into the gym and, and have to do bodybuilding, even though I love it, you know what I mean? Um, so it's nice to ha- to be able to he- do a high protein diet and, and minimize, uh, body fat like that.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:32

       Yeah. And also, given two versions of the world, given like one version Zach makes weight for the competition and hits all of his lifts, gets nine white lights and all that stuff, and in another version of the world that happens but with abs, it's like I'll take the world-

   22. ZTZack Telander7:47

       (laughs) .

   23. CWChris Williamson7:47

       ... that has abs.

   24. ZTZack Telander7:49

       Well, it's, it, yeah, yeah, yes. Um, although, uh, you know, it's never been about ... Like lifting well and, and performing well is always gonna trump the way that I look. Um, but there's a, there's actually a famous tra- a world famous track coach here at, uh, in College Station, which is where I live, a Texas A&M track coach. And he's like, "At a certain point, you know, we have to look at body composition." Because if we're maximizing every bit of an athlete's potential, um, they need to have as much usable muscle as possible. And if you have extra fat, additional fat, that's, that's space and that's weight, that's added weight to our sport, which is just speed. You know, it's all about who's the fastest, who can maintain the speed the longest, who's, you know, lightest, but also the most powerful.

   25. CWChris Williamson8:42

       Mm.

   26. ZTZack Telander8:43

       Um, so yes, body composition does matter, but it's a very fine line. I mean, I, I, again, um, I never really used to think about "I need protein, I need protein," but it really, really does make a difference when you start to eat like that. It's kind of like very similar to that bodybuilding type of lifestyle, that bro lifestyle.

   27. CWChris Williamson9:04

       Mm. You have to, um ... There's no one who accidentally falls into a high protein diet either. You know, like no one-

   28. ZTZack Telander9:12

       Right.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:12

       ... no one just ends up going back through a year of macros, uh, w- which they weren't tracking, uh, which they weren't counting but were tracking, and goes, "Oh, would you look at that? That just happens, my byproduct of my diet was 200 grams of protein today."

   30. ZTZack Telander9:25

       Yeah, no. No, the-
5. 9:47 – 15:36

   Zack’s athletic origin story: football weight room to CrossFit to competitive weightlifting

   1. CWChris Williamson9:47

      Yeah. So we've touched on a number of different categories of strength athletes or endurance athlete, whatever it is. I thought that it might be fun today for me and you to go through some of the stereotypes of different lifters and different athletes that we see in the gym or that we see online and stuff like that. So to hold my hands up for the different teams that I'm on, I probably came into the world as a bro lifter. Actually originally before that, a cricketer, which is like British version of, uh, uh, baseball, I guess.

   2. ZTZack Telander10:16

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:16

      Um, and then bro lifter, bodybuilder, little bit of sort of Muay Thai and boxing and stuff, and then now CrossFit. What's your, what's your heritage in, um, strength and stuff like that in athletics?

   4. ZTZack Telander10:31

      Uh, yeah, f- it was for football, for American football, um, was the first time I was introduced to the weight room. I was about 13 or 14, uh, and it was just all bro stuff. And then when, when I was actually on a program, we would do c- big compound movements, squats, bench, uh, pull-ups. Um, you know, it was actually interesting. I, I couldn't ... I could probably do like maybe one or two pull-ups when I graduated high school. So I was 18 years old. Uh, I was just so long and, you know-

   5. CWChris Williamson11:04

      Limmy.

   6. ZTZack Telander11:04

      ... didn't have ... Yeah, just very limby. And, um, then I got to college, and I was playing, uh, lacrosse at the university, uh, University of Vermont. And we had a very structured weightlifting program, um, or like weight program. And, you know, we would go four times a week, and that's where like my strength coach was basically like, "Oh, you can't do a pull-up. You're gonna do 'em every day," you know?

   7. CWChris Williamson11:33

      (laughs)

   8. ZTZack Telander11:33

      "Every day at least when you come in here, when you're fresh, just try to get, you know, whatever you can." Uh, and by the end of that, I think I got like 15. And I, that was the biggest difference in like my physique that I've ever noticed, outside of actually my legs from squatting too.

   9. CWChris Williamson11:48

      Mm.

   10. ZTZack Telander11:48

       Uh, we would squat two, three times a week, and that was noticeable as well. So that was my big exposure to training. And then when I graduated college, I felt that I still had a lot of, uh, I still had a lot of ability remaining. So, uh-You know, I didn't know how to... Lacrosse was done for me. Um, so like pretty much all sports, like official sports that I used to partake in, like American football, basketball, lacrosse, like and you know, I could have done like house leagues or things like that. But, um, I wanted to get... I wanted to stay very intense and train really hard. And I actually, I, I saw an article, it might have been on like Men's Journal or something, and it was on, uh, Rich Froning. Uh... You know, it might not, might not have even been on Rich Froning, but it was about Murph, the workout Murph. And, uh, which is a, you know, a staple in CrossFit these days. Um, and I remember being like, "Wow, that's... What a weird way of thinking of training." You know, here's a bunch of reps, do them as fast as you can. Um, and there, there are things that like, you know, push-ups, pull-ups, squats, those are things that I've only ever done in sets of 10 and, uh, you know, with rest and on a program. And I was like, "That sounds really, really cool." So I went into a gym, a CrossFit gym, uh, and then I fell in love with it there. And then, um, I got really just more and more sucked into it. I wanted to coach more people, I wanted to help out, so I got my level one. Uh, and then I got my USA weightlifting, uh, certification. So USAW, uh, level one certification. And then I was lucky enough to get a, a full-time coaching job, um, as a CrossFitter or as a CrossFit coach, which in, in America or anywhere really, full-time, like getting a wage to be a CrossFit coach is, is a pretty good deal. And, um, I think a lot of my development as a coach to that job. Uh, but then after a while, I kind of... I didn't want to work with kind of your average Joes anymore. And that wasn't... The main reasoning behind that was I was tired of, of people... teaching people and giving my all teaching them how to snatch and clean and jerk and do all these movements to have them just want to look better. You know, I really wanted performance. And so what I did was I went back to the collegiate strength and conditioning field. I was an intern for free, which is crazy. That's one of the things that you have to do when you want to be a strength coach, at least in America, is that you have to intern and that means it's pretty much a volunteer position. Um, I was doing that for seven or eight months, and then I got another job in Texas A&M, which is here in College Station. Uh, and, and since then, since that point, I've fallen back into weightlifting. Throughout all of that, that whole thing where I graduated college to now, um, I've been weightlifting in and out of being involved in CrossFit. And I'd say the last two and a half, three years have been like pure weightlifting. Um, but I had, you know, I've been coaching weightlifting, I've been coaching the lifts, I've been competing in weightlifting since 2013. So that's kind of the broad picture of my training.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:32

       30,000-foot view of your athletic-

   12. ZTZack Telander15:35

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:35

       ... background. It's so funny-

   14. ZTZack Telander15:36

       Yeah.

6. 15:36 – 19:16

   From CrossFit coach to collegiate S&C: bureaucracy, internships, and the Texas A&M machine

   1. CWChris Williamson15:36

      ... about the, um... when you want to go and do something that is focused on finding the best people or getting to the, toward the top or the peak of people's performance, I'm reminded of, uh, Ryan Holiday. Do you know how he started his writing career out? So he went and assisted Robert Greene, five times New York Times best-selling author, Mastery-

   2. ZTZack Telander15:58

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:59

      ... The 48 Laws of Power, all that stuff, and previous Modern Wisdom guest. Um, he went and assisted him for free as a research-

   4. ZTZack Telander16:06

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson16:06

      ... a research assistant. And, you know, you've got Robert Greene writing these huge books, drawing on 3000 years worth of history. "And oh, Ryan, I need to find out about where Julius Caesar's this, this thing happened. Can you fuck off to the library and go and sort it for me?" And, um, he just did that. But then you get... coming out the other side of that, you get this ridiculous experience. And that presumably-

   6. ZTZack Telander16:26

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson16:26

      ... is the same for you, getting to work at a p- such an incredible level, and then you can distill that back down.

   8. ZTZack Telander16:32

      Yeah, like, uh, working at Collegiate Strength and Conditioning, and I know that you... Like there... I'm sure there's a lot of Americans that listen, but if you're, you know, European or elsewhere in the world, like it is a big, big deal, uh, in America. Especially at a place like Texas A&M, which is a 60,000 student university. 60,000 students undergrad. Like that's the, the level. And the amount of money that comes in to this... to, to sporting here is like, it's something you would compare to, uh, a major football club in the English Premier League. Like it's, it's seriously that intense. Our stadium right over there, it houses 100... 110,000 fans. So when you go see one of those, uh, games.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:19

      That is insane.

   10. ZTZack Telander17:20

       Yeah. So a lot of people want to be strength coaches because they have... there are these, these really prominent, uh, programs. And so it's a very saturated market. But the process is, you know, you have to be an intern. You have to build your way up and then hopefully-

   11. CWChris Williamson17:37

       Earn your stripes kind of.

   12. ZTZack Telander17:39

       Yes. And, uh, that is... For the most part, at least my experience, it was for free. What I did... I felt like, you know, I was competing in weightlifting, you know, in and out. And then I, I had like what you would call like a fellowship program at Texas A&M where I was actually being paid and it was kind of nice. Um, once that finished up, I kind of wanted to just take a break and, and focus on weightlifting and, and trying to be a better... And-... maybe going into private. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. Um, but I knew that the, the lineage, that it, it seemed very bureaucratic to, to be involved in something like, like that, you know? And I, I feel like I'm maybe more of a creative person than ... Uh, it, it just might not have been the best fit for me. Um, and so I remember my next job after that, I ... because I needed to make money, was, uh, a personal trainer at a Gold's Gym. And it was actually-

   13. CWChris Williamson18:44

       I would have loved, I would have loved to have seen that.

   14. ZTZack Telander18:46

       Yeah. And it was actually, uh, not a bad gig, man. Like, it really was ... It was pretty cool, and there was actually some pretty knowledgeable people there, um, and making good money. And for me, it wasn't a means ... It, it, it wa- it wasn't, like, "Oh, I'm gonna be a, a Gold's Gym personal trainer for the rest of my life," you know? "I'm gonna figure out the next step, but right now it's pretty good," you know? "I, I'm in a cheaper place, a cheaper, uh, cost of living area. Um,

7. 19:16 – 27:38

   Accidental YouTuber: criticism on Reddit, finding the niche, and leaning into expertise

   1. ZTZack Telander19:16

      a lot of stuff is going good in my life." So someone actually mentioned, like, "Hey, you should check out YouTube for, uh, like, putting your stuff on YouTube." And so I didn't really know what the purpose of YouTube was. Like, I, I literally thought it was just a place where you could, like, send links to other people, like you would just send, you know, and watch. I didn't know that people had channels where they would kind of use it as this social outlet. Uh, it wasn't, like, a community type thing. And then when this person showed me, like, they showed me Casey Neistat. They showed me, um, some of, like, the bigger names, like ... God, I can't ... uh, David Dobrik, and stuff like that. I was like, "Wow, this is ..."

   2. CWChris Williamson19:58

      Yeah.

   3. ZTZack Telander19:58

      "... this culture is crazy." Like, I, I had no idea, you know? It's like I, I felt like I was blind to it. I just wasn't paying attention or something like that. So I would just consume that content all the time. Then I, I made, uh, some videos around my training for CrossFit. And I remember, like ... 'Cause I, I, I ... when I went to school, I was a film and television studies major and then, like, a, a business minor. And I remember, like, being really, really into editing and, like, loving film production. That's why I wanted to do it. So when I made these vlogs of my training for CrossFitt, CrossFit, it was like ... It would take me a long time. I would, I would make these, like, really serious edits, and then I would put them on YouTube, and no one would watch them. And I remember I posted one to a CrossFit page, uh, uh, the CrossFit Reddit page, and some guy was like, "Listen, you're not that ... You're not that good-looking. (laughs) You're not that good at CrossFit," right? "And you're not telling us, like, anything about your story, or, and you don't have any expertise." And I was like, "Well, first off, I'm not that bad looking."

   4. CWChris Williamson21:12

      (laughs)

   5. ZTZack Telander21:12

      "Okay?" You know, um, but no, I w- I, you know, I took that ... I was like, kind of like, you know, "Fuck this guy, he doesn't know anything." But then also I was like, "Well, that's true." At, at ... My videos were all very surface level, just had nothing to them.

   6. CWChris Williamson21:27

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ZTZack Telander21:28

      I think it was because I was trying to cater to what Casey Neistat had already established himself as, you know? People were involved in his story before the content that I saw. People were not involved in my story. People don't know who the fuck I am. So one thing the guy said is, like, "Do you have any expertise?" And I said, "Hell yeah. I mean, I, I have a lot of expertise in weightlifting." So my next video, I completely revamped. I was like, "You know what? I see this issue in the snatch, uh, and here's how you fix it. Um, uh, here's the issue being played out," and I'll show an example. "Here's what it should look like, and here are the drills you can do to fix it. Thank you guys for watching." Boom, send it out. I deleted my other YouTube vlogs. I clicked the link to this, copy-pasted, put it a- put it on Reddit, uh, weightlifting, and they loved it. Everyone in that ... in, in the Reddit community was like, "This is awesome, man."

   8. CWChris Williamson22:32

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ZTZack Telander22:32

      "Keep doing it." Um, and so I, I basically was like, "Okay, I'll do another one next week, because I have another idea," and that one did well, and I've just repeated that for now two and a half, three years, and I've got 103,000 subscribers. And it w- it was really interesting how that all played out. It was like ... It seemed so intuitive and so natural to just put what you know out there, and if someone likes it somewhere, there's a chance that maybe someone else might like it, and it might snowball from there. But you can't give yourself the benefit of the doubt if you try to do something that you're not, or if you try to do what other people are doing.

   10. CWChris Williamson23:16

       Man, I-

   11. ZTZack Telander23:17

       So ... (clears throat)

   12. CWChris Williamson23:18

       ... I have been talking about this a lot recently, which is your weirdness is your superpower. So the unique offering that you have to put out, or that I have to put out, or anybody that's listening has, that is your USP, because no one, literally no one else on the planet, even a twin brother or a twin sister, has precisely the same mix of life experiences and interests and talents and proclivities and background-

   13. ZTZack Telander23:47

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:47

       ... and story and all the rest of it. No one, nobody else has that. So when you see people that are prepared to dilute down their unique individual offering, or as you say, kind of perhaps aim for or align themselves with some externalized idea of what they should be doing ... "Oh, well, this is what the other guys are doing. Maybe I'll just try and do a carbon copy of that."... and maybe that is you, if that's your true, like, you speaking your truth forward, then great. If you are just like a miniature Casey Neistat, then fucking fan- like, great for you.

   15. NANarrator24:22

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson24:22

       Um, but if you're not, you're losing out on the opportunity to really break it through. And you hit the nail on the head there. If you find it interesting, you have to presume... Like, you're not an alien, I don't think you are, an alien from outer space. You know, like, if you find it interesting, the li- there has to be at least a couple of other people out there that find it interesting-

   17. NANarrator24:44

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson24:44

       ... and therefore, that might roll even further forward.

   19. NANarrator24:46

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson24:46

       And that's, you know, part of my ?

   21. ZTZack Telander24:48

       That was my mindset, and that was actually what has provided me with the most amount of success is that the organic growth from when I started to now has been amazing. You know, I had, at one point, I had 20,000 subscribers, and I was getting 20,000 views. It was like-

   22. CWChris Williamson25:05

       (laughs) Which is re-

   23. ZTZack Telander25:06

       ... it's insane.

   24. CWChris Williamson25:06

       ... anyone who, anyone who's got a YouTube channel, that is, that's stupid. Yeah.

   25. ZTZack Telander25:10

       Because it was, a lot of people weren't subscribing, so I would get a lot of clicks from elsewhere, but it was like the people who were following me, the people who wanted to listen to me, I was putting it directly at them, and I was not backing down. I was not changing at all. Um, and it just, it kept working. And I, you know, um, I would put in so much goddamn time on these videos, and I loved every second of it. I would sit down and edit for 40 hours, like s- like straight up, I would do, you know, 12 hours one day, and then I would do like six hours the next. And it would al- it would just be like till like 3:00 in the morning. I just didn't care. It was so awesome 'cause then when I got to click upload and I could see people view and comment and talk about it, it was like, "Man, you know, I'm, I'm actually doing something with my life."

   26. CWChris Williamson25:59

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ZTZack Telander25:59

       Um, and I was not prepared to let that slip at all. And people, when I started it, I was like, "Yeah, you know, I've got, uh, like 1,000 subscribers." And people are like, "Oh, that's cool," but it's like, what does that-

   28. CWChris Williamson26:10

       Mm-hmm.

   29. ZTZack Telander26:11

       YouTube subscribers, what does that even mean?

   30. CWChris Williamson26:13

       Mm-hmm.
8. 27:38 – 36:05

   Internet creators vs ‘traditional media’: attention, watch time, and why podcasts win

   1. CWChris Williamson27:38

      Man, have you seen, it's very recent, Eric Weinstein on Joe Rogan, the most recent one?

   2. ZTZack Telander27:43

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:43

      Most, most recent one, so he-

   4. ZTZack Telander27:44

      I only, I only, like, uh, what I do is I look at the clips, but I, I, I liked some of the stuff that he was saying, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:49

      So you may have watched the clip of the bit that I'm about to talk about now, but it's where he talks about traditional media versus mainstream media.

   6. ZTZack Telander27:57

      No, I haven't seen that. No.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:58

      Oh, dude, you gotta go find it 'cause it, you would absolutely love it. So basically, uh, Eric Weinstein, for people who don't know who he is, this absolute freak genius polymath guy who is on Rogan all the time, super clever, mathematician, managing director at Thiel Capital, like Peter Thiel, PayPal mafia guy. Anyway, huge penis, massive, massive, massive dick guy.

   8. ZTZack Telander28:18

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson28:18

      (laughs) Um, um, and, um, he is talking to Joe Rogan about, uh, the problem of when two different worlds collide, and he's talking about kind of this new world, which is the Joe Rogans, the Zach Thelanders, the Modern Wisdoms of the world, kind of the, the subculture of internet stuff, uh, when it clashes with the older world, the ABC, the NBC, the BBC, the ITV stuff in the UK.

   10. ZTZack Telander28:46

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:46

       And, um, what he says is, Rogan brings up this brilliant point where he said, "People talk about mainstream media, and they use that as a signal that this is the media that has the most credibility, it's the one that has the best experts, it's the o- it's- it's the one, and everything else is like a guy in his bedroom doing a thing," which, you know-

   12. ZTZack Telander29:08

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson29:08

       ... I- I don't have a massive amount of, um-

   14. ZTZack Telander29:10

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson29:10

       ... ability to complain about, but, um, and the argument that gets made by Eric is perfect, and he says, "Well, hang on a second. Like, if you put this podcast out, and this podcast gets five million views."

   16. ZTZack Telander29:26

       Yeah, I mean, it's simple math, yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson29:27

       And, and five, five million views, not only five million views, but five million views multiplied by probably, I'd- I wouldn't like to guess what the average watch time on Rogan's channel is, but it'll be like probably f- f- 30 minutes, maybe more, maybe like 40, 45 minutes probably or something, some ridi- so the watch time, the total watch time-

   18. ZTZack Telander29:44

       Yeah, that's the real value, yeah, is watch time.

   19. CWChris Williamson29:46

       ... will be freakish. Like, the time and attention that people are spending watching Ro- so he's like, "Well, hang on a second. If I get more watch time on this channel than ABC, NBC, ITV, BBC, who's mainstream media?"

   20. ZTZack Telander30:01

       Yeah, exactly.

   21. CWChris Williamson30:01

       Like, who is mainstream media? Now, there's traditional media. Traditional media's that. Mainstream media, I don't think so, and I agree.

   22. ZTZack Telander30:09

       Right, and, um, when Joe had the epidemiologist on his show-

   23. CWChris Williamson30:15

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ZTZack Telander30:16

       ... um, when, it w- it was about four weeks ago, uh, when the coronavirus scare was beginning, uh-That's where I got all of my information. That's where I got everything, was the professional epidemiologist who was as clear-cut and as dry as it could possibly be. There was zero entertainment value. None of it. There was no editing. It was a guy in a room talking to another guy about what the fuck is happening. That, to me, was like, "Oh, finally."

   25. CWChris Williamson30:49

       Thank you.

   26. ZTZack Telander30:50

       Thank you. After this disease or this virus has been out in, in China, and it was ... Dude, it was going on in January, and I remember people being like ... There were some memes being made, and then w- then, then it was like, "Ah, fuck it, you know, it's in Wuhan, no one really cares." You know? Like, I remember that. We, I had practice, I mean, weightlifting practice, um, and all my, my lifters are students at Texas A&M, you know, they're college kids, they weren't even giving a shit. No one gave a shit about this thing, and it was mainly 'cause no one knew anything, like, you c- we could have figured this out. Like, we could have just been m- more informed earlier on. And, um, what was amazing was I still wasn't informed at all, uh, I had a sem- I had two seminars, one of them was gonna be last week in Maine, so I would have had to (laughs) take a flight.

   27. CWChris Williamson31:46

       Mm-hmm.

   28. ZTZack Telander31:46

       There's no way in hell.

   29. CWChris Williamson31:47

       Yeah.

   30. ZTZack Telander31:48

       Um, but when I saw this epidemiologist, or I think it was like a, like a vir-
9. 36:05 – 40:04

   Fitness content isn’t ‘too saturated’: better information, human laziness, and the new learning economy

   1. ZTZack Telander36:05

      Well, it's, it's when, when social media becomes media, you know? It's like, um, having a YouTube channel is becoming more and more social media. Like, having a YouTube channel and getting people to watch is very different than having an Instagram and getting people to, to f- to follow. Um-... but those sort of things are more, are blending more and more together. If you have a podcast, there's a chance that you'll have a YouTube channel. And there's a chance that you'll be able to clip up some of those YouTube channel podcast clips and throw them on your Instagram, so the more and more connected it is. Um, and the, and the more and more people are gonna consume that style of media rather than your typical ABC. But if ... To bring it back to, to power lifting, weight lifting, body building, uh, you know, all different forms of fitness, their ... I imagine that the, the viewership for those things is doubling. The viewership and the listening to all of those things is doubling as well. Um, there is definitely, definitely a lot more room for legitimate sources of information around fitness. And I think there always will be. People think it's getting too saturated, it's not. It's when a, a certain trend kicks off and then other people just latch onto that trend, right? Um, I think Jeff Nippard pulling in, uh, scientific examples of why things work and trying to lay them out in simplistic ways, like, that is becoming a more saturated style of delivering content, even though it's not wrong. Um, and if you do it, you're not really ... It, it, it all depends on the person who's delivering.

   2. CWChris Williamson37:54

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ZTZack Telander37:54

      If I say, "Hey, you know, um, Jeff Nippard's doing this. I wanna do it." Well, then that's probably the wrong approach. But if I say, "Here's something that I'm really passionate about, and here's someone who does it pretty well, I think I'm gonna try to do a little bit what they do, use a little bit of influence." I think that's okay.

   4. CWChris Williamson38:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ZTZack Telander38:12

      Um, but there's always room for more information around fitness. I mean, look at where we are from when you started and when I started weight lifting and, and just going to the gym. Look at the, the knowledge that the average gym goer has compared to then.

   6. CWChris Williamson38:28

      Well, you don't have to... You're not trolling through bodybuilding.com forums, uh-

   7. ZTZack Telander38:34

      That's what I used to do, man.

   8. CWChris Williamson38:35

      ... P Nation articles.

   9. ZTZack Telander38:38

      That is, that is literally what I used to do. I mean, I was around, um, when dial-up internet was a thing, you know what I mean? I was ... And, and for me-

   10. CWChris Williamson38:48

       Kids these days will never know, Zach, man.

   11. ZTZack Telander38:50

       Yeah. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson38:50

       Kids these days will never know.

   13. ZTZack Telander38:52

       Yeah, and-

   14. CWChris Williamson38:53

       You got fucking Craig Ritchie and Sunny Webster giving you free fucking workouts all the time.

   15. ZTZack Telander38:57

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson38:57

       Get some of the best information on the planet available free streaming in full HD, V- VR, 3D bullshit like that.

   17. ZTZack Telander39:05

       It's, it's actually crazy, man. Like, I can ... You know, if someone wants to learn to snatch and clean and jerk, like, they can go online and fucking do it. And that is crazy. If I wanna go and learn how to surf, if I wanna do anything, I can do it. It's, uh, it's amazing. It also ... People are still too lazy sometimes to do that, you know? You'll go to a Global gym and you'll see someone squatting with shit form, and it'll be amazing to you that someone will be squatting with such shit form or shit technique, um, and they'll be adding more and more weight and they'll be just lifting like a general jackass, when we do have all of these awesome, you know, sources of information. So, a lot of times it's more of, like, a human condition. Like, yes, the information is getting better. It's better and better and better, but a lot of times hu- humans are lazy sacks of shit.

   18. CWChris Williamson40:01

       Path of least resistance, man. It always is.

   19. ZTZack Telander40:03

       Right.

10. 40:04 – 48:09

    Gym stereotypes tour: powerlifters, weightlifters, CrossFitters—and time-wasting phone culture

    1. CWChris Williamson40:04

       So, look, let's get into it, right? Let's start, because I've got a power lifter who's one of the, the guys that comes on and co-hosts now and then, Johnny. Uh, definitely there is a disproportionate number of power lifters who are also accountants.

    2. ZTZack Telander40:19

       (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson40:19

       100%.

    4. ZTZack Telander40:21

       That is weird.

    5. CWChris Williamson40:22

       Try and tell me otherwise. (laughs)

    6. ZTZack Telander40:25

       That's super weird. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I've never, I've never met ... I don't think I've met a power lifter that's an accountant as well.

    7. CWChris Williamson40:31

       No? Oh, man, they love spreadsheets, you know?

    8. ZTZack Telander40:33

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson40:33

       Everything's color coded.

    10. ZTZack Telander40:34

        That's actually true. I mean, now, now that I think about the, the power lifting coach that I know, uh, who owns my gym, uh, when we had a gym, uh, the good old days.

    11. CWChris Williamson40:46

        (laughs)

    12. ZTZack Telander40:47

        His program is insanely ... It's, it's, like, so deep, you know? It's got-

    13. CWChris Williamson40:52

        Beautiful ...

    14. ZTZack Telander40:53

        ... pages of spreadsheets, color-coded.

    15. CWChris Williamson40:55

        Yep.

    16. ZTZack Telander40:55

        All the, all that jazz. So, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson40:57

        Yeah. Yeah, so power lifters, power lifters are, a lot of them are accountants. I think weightlifters, in my experience, weightlifters are kind of like ... They're a little bit like the arty kid in school.

    18. ZTZack Telander41:08

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson41:08

        Like, they probably, they probably did, like, music, probably did music, I reckon, going through school. Perhaps did a l- maybe even, like, a little bit of, you know, like, dance or something.

    20. ZTZack Telander41:17

        I, I mean, look, you're, you wanna see how right you are?

    21. CWChris Williamson41:20

        (laughs)

    22. ZTZack Telander41:21

        Look at this. There's my guitar down there.

    23. CWChris Williamson41:24

        (laughs)

    24. ZTZack Telander41:25

        And there's my drum set right here.

    25. CWChris Williamson41:27

        Man, I got it. I got it, I'm telling you.

    26. ZTZack Telander41:30

        Yeah, no. Okay, so, so the power lifters are definitely the kids who got As in math.

    27. CWChris Williamson41:37

        Yep.

    28. ZTZack Telander41:37

        And, uh, are very hardworking. They-

    29. CWChris Williamson41:41

        I think there's another, there's another wing of the power lifters, and they are the kids that listen to Slipknot, Metallica.

    30. ZTZack Telander41:49

        (laughs)
11. 48:09 – 58:59

    Performance psychology: fear, identity, expectations vs standards, and the mental health cost of elite success

    1. ZTZack Telander48:09

       Um, but, you know, I, I actually was just talking about this yesterday. I don't know if, do you know who Michelle Letendre is?

    2. CWChris Williamson48:17

       No.

    3. ZTZack Telander48:18

       So she was a, a games athlete. Sh- I think she's b- been to six games, and now she's a coach, and she's coached, she coaches, uh, Patrick Vellner. She coached Laura Horvath. Um, she's, she's a really, really smart person and, um, generally awesome. And we were talking about the differences when she was a CrossFitter and then when she went to qu- compete in weightlifting. And she remembers feeling a lot better when she was lifting heavy while she was a CrossFitter.... um, which is interesting. And I, I think I know why and that's because crossfitters have that ... They can alleviate the pressure from a certain lift. Their fear of snatching heavy or clean and jerking heavy, and fa- fear of failure, any of that, is just not there.

    4. CWChris Williamson49:06

       Why?

    5. ZTZack Telander49:07

       Even when they sw- Because s- it's embedded in their sport. Why would you care about a maximum snatch when you have 13 other things that you have to do? Like, yeah, you want to do the best you can, but this is not your identity. This is not who you are. And when they switch to competitive weightlifting, that still stays with them. They're like, "Oh, it's my first meet, I'm just gonna have fun." "Oh, it's my second meet, you know, this ... I've only done weightlifting for officially for a year now and I just keep PRing all that stuff."

    6. CWChris Williamson49:34

       (laughs)

    7. ZTZack Telander49:34

       And, and that's a great, great mentality because they're basically ... They're forgetting the things that aren't, um, that are outside of their control. They're, they're completely taking them out, uh, o- of, you know, out of the situation. (smacks lips) And, um, a lot of weightlifters lose sight of that when they start training. And so, there's, there's this line, and we talk about this a lot, me and my coach, Max, is, is having this line of expectations and standards. So if you expect a lot, right? And you have decently high standards, it's not always the best. Having low expectations, but incredibly high standards is usually going to bid you the best result for the most of the, for, for most of the time, especially when you're training.

    8. CWChris Williamson50:29

       It's challenging-

    9. ZTZack Telander50:30

       So-

    10. CWChris Williamson50:30

        ... wha- when you're passionate about something, right? You know, like, you wanna do well, you want to do well.

    11. ZTZack Telander50:34

        Yes.

    12. CWChris Williamson50:34

        Everyone that's listening that's, that's doing-

    13. ZTZack Telander50:36

        But expectations, the word itself, expect. Why do we go about life expecting anything? Expect? Like, that's a stupid word. That's silly. You're not ... You ... Nothing is deserved. Nothing is expected. You just have to do the best you can and do better than you did before and at least try to do better.

    14. CWChris Williamson51:02

        I think-

    15. ZTZack Telander51:02

        That is the only expectation, is that you will give your best effort. When you expect a certain result, you either get that result and there you go, your life is over, or you get below that result and everything sucks.

    16. CWChris Williamson51:16

        Mm-hmm.

    17. ZTZack Telander51:17

        Either way, everything sucks, right? It's being process-oriented versus goal-oriented. Okay? But w- what we were talking about, a very interesting aspect, is that the best, the elite, elite, elite, like the Matt Frasers or the Michael Phelps, those are the ones that have high expectations and high standards, and they don't always have the, the best mental health because of it.

    18. CWChris Williamson51:43

        Couldn't agree more, man. The, there's a bunch of people who I think aren't happy. I, I actually think Matt Fraser is. I think he has ... He's just built to be a high performer. Um, but a lot of the time, there's a price that you need to pay. I did a video on this recently, uh, talking about you can't just take part of someone's life. You have to take the whole. So people look at Elon Musk or fucking, um, Matt Fraser, for instance, or, you know, uh, Tiger Woods. Amazing example actually, Tiger Woods. Like, you look at Tiger Woods 20 years ago and you go, "Oh my God, this guy's, like, worth millions of dollars, sponsored by Nike, best golfer on the planet, child prodigy," this, that, and the other. But if you find out about Tiger, especially if you read, um, uh, Stillness Is The Key by Ryan Holiday, he's got some amazing research in that about Tiger. And that his dad, his dad abused him as a child-

    19. ZTZack Telander52:36

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson52:36

        ... in golf. Like, it was golf abuse, but it was, uh, absolutely 100%, especially in today's society would be considered abuse. He even had a safe word. They had a safe word. Tiger Woods and his dad had a safe word-

    21. ZTZack Telander52:49

        Wow.

    22. CWChris Williamson52:49

        ... and the safe word was enough. And he never once said it.

    23. ZTZack Telander52:54

        Damn.

    24. CWChris Williamson52:54

        They called it, they referred to it as the E word. That-

    25. ZTZack Telander52:59

        That is crazy.

    26. CWChris Williamson53:00

        ... makes my, makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck, man.

    27. ZTZack Telander53:01

        I know. Yeah. Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson53:02

        The, the E word. They, uh, had a safe word for when Tiger was like, "Dad, you're getting push- you're pushing me too hard here." And like, he used to say that he used to call him, he used to call his own son the N-word. He was like, "This is why you're a useless," and "This is why this, this is why that." Like, and you think, okay, you see Tiger Woods, you see the product at the end of this. But you don't realize what he's had to sacrifice, all of the things, the, the baggage that he carries with him-

    29. ZTZack Telander53:29

        Right.

    30. CWChris Williamson53:29

        ... that go along with that. I remember in Chasing Excellence by Ben Bergeron, there's this story about Matt Fraser. He used to be, I think, an engineer, mechanical engineer or something.
12. 58:59 – 1:08:28

    Nuance as the antidote: archetypes, storytelling, and how Zack builds coaching content

    1. CWChris Williamson58:59

       What, like...

    2. ZTZack Telander59:00

       "This person can't cheat. He's a good person." Well, those are two different things. Those are two different things. Do you understand? "This person can't take drugs. He's a g- I've seen him. He's a good guy." What, why, those are not, those, you know, you can't say the grass is green because the sky is blue or whatever. That's not how that works, but we always want to make patterns like that 'cause it's like that's a struggle of human consciousness. We're always trying to find how we can make sense of this world.

    3. CWChris Williamson59:36

       Here's, here's why I th- this is, touches on something I talk about a lot, that we think in archetypes. So we have these cultural memes that we're fed, especially when we're young, and then we try and slot people into these archetypes, the hero, the maiden, the villain, the redeemed, the, the hopeless case, you know, the nerd, the, the str- strong alpha, the silent guy, you know, all of these different things, and we try and slot people into this. Part of it is because we're lazy, and it's because we don't want to have to do the work to work out, "Well, hang on. Zach's, like, got a, a bit of this, but he's also got, like, a bit of that in him and a little bit of this, and that doesn't really-"

    4. ZTZack Telander1:00:17

       Yep.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

       "... these two things don't really fit, so I'm kinda gonna forget about that and I'll just have him as the, I'll pin him as the that guy," you know?

    6. ZTZack Telander1:00:23

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:00:23

       It's like whatever the majority of your personality makeup is, we'll just use that.

    8. ZTZack Telander1:00:29

       The best stories, the best films are the ones that question that, the, the best ones by far. Who do we root for? Who, who's good? Who's bad? What is good and what is bad? What is morality? What is immoral? Th- those are the best stories, and it's really funny because in, in Hollywood, like, people still, they're like, "Well, what's his thing? Like, what..."What's his archetype? Is he the hero of this story? It's like, well, why are we still- why is that everyone's go-to, even though we know the best stories are the ones that question those things. Think about, like, something as simple as, like, The Joker that just came out. Are we on Arthur Fleck's side or are we not? Are, you know, who's good, who's bad? Is Murray bad, is Murray good? We don't, people, like, that, that sort of stuff, it, it causes pain in people. I left that movie theater, and I shit you not, I looked around and I remember hearing conversations of girls and, and guys, everyone being like, "That fucking sucked. That movie sucked. That movie was depressing. I did- I did- I didn't, I'm s- so pissed I went and saw that movie." I walked out of that movie theater being like, that was one of the best movies I've ever sat down and watched, ever. You know? Because I, when I go to something like that, I want i- i- it's helps, it's an exercise to question my surroundings, to question my world. When we want to go to the movie theater and hold up a big foam fin- finger, and get our popcorn, and, you know, cheer on Vin Diesel and, and The Fast and the Furious guys, like, that's fine. But what happens is that sort of mindset carries over into all things culture. We want to deliver an ideology, we want to deliver a subset of things where we can fit people all the goddamn time, and it runs, it, it runs amok. It, it, it kind of, it, it doesn't allow for, for nuance. That is... My channel is based off of nuance, even though it's a simple thing where all I talk about is the snatch and the clean and jerk. Right? If that's it, then I should have ended my channel two years ago, if it's just about those two things. There's no nuance there. But that is the, the goal of my style of coaching, my style of everything is to play with what is, what is the answer. Nuance, nuance, nuance. Always in between the lines, always examining what has prior, what, what people have done, what people have thought, and examine, uh, what I have done and what I have thought, and experiences I've had. If we're not doing things like that, then we're just gonna keep in this cyclical bullshit, uh, narrative, this structure that's always gonna repeat itself over and over and over again. That it... And in all honesty, that was all I did... I, I, here is my structure. If anyone is listening to, to how I made my YouTube channel what it is. Instead of saying, "Here's how you do the snatch. You do the snatch like this, you do the, you do this, you do that. Thank you for watching," I was saying, "When you learn this thing, it's likely that this will happen, and it's likely that you'll be told to do this. What I have found, through my own experimentation, is that either of those could work, uh, if done like this or this or this." Do you see the, the variance in that? That right there, it has like, you know, offshoots of, of different routes you can go, different things. I want to empower the viewer, not tell them what to do. So, I continually will try to do that. When, when I, when someone wants me to m- to do a video on programming, I think, "What is the issue, actually?" I don't wanna, I don't wanna write a program and say, "Do this." I wanna know what it is that most people do wrong, and I wanna fix it or, or offer suggestions on how you can fix it. And that's it. And then, and honest to God, I know I just went on like a huge rant, but that, that is the biggest, without question, part of my success. And I'm sure, as far as your podcast goes, that's what you wanna do too. You wanna live in the nuance. Right?

    9. CWChris Williamson1:05:07

       That's what I'm here for, man. That's literally, that's what interests me. It's the reason that I have these conversations, you know? And I say, I've said it a million times, I'm gonna say it again. If you are not having a conversation with a friend about a cons- a concept that you are interested in for at least half an hour a week where your phones are outside of the room, then you are missing out on the opportunity to develop yourself. I think it's like, oh, well, I need to do my yoga this week, or I need to do my mobility today, or I need to go for a walk, I need to get my 10,000 steps. Once a week, you need to have a conversation with a friend that's not distracted by other things, because it, it sharpens your skills, it en- improves the precision of your thoughts, improves your ability to articulate things. Um-

    10. ZTZack Telander1:05:46

        I, I, it could be with yourself, man. Like, I-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:05:49

        It could. Well, you could record a monologue. You could s-

    12. ZTZack Telander1:05:51

        I-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:05:51

        Everyone's got a phone.

    14. ZTZack Telander1:05:53

        I mean, I, I definitely talk to myself for sure. Like, there's no question. And I know that might sound weird or whatever, but I, sometimes I'll be walking the dogs and I'll just think out loud. Sometimes I'll just start talking, and it, it looks like I have schizophrenia-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:06:08

        Mm-hmm.

    16. ZTZack Telander1:06:09

        ... but, but realistically, like, I, I couldn't agree more with... Um, you know, did you ever see the documentary on Avicii?

    17. CWChris Williamson1:06:18

        Yes.

    18. ZTZack Telander1:06:18

        The, uh, the one on Netflix?

    19. CWChris Williamson1:06:20

        Yeah.

    20. ZTZack Telander1:06:20

        Okay, so there's the part where he says he's really interested in this article or maybe this study that's, that talks about the type of introverts there are. And he's like, "I'm kind of what you would call an extroverted introvert," or something like that. And he's like, "I am not interested in going out and partying, but I am very interested in being social and sharing ideas with people, and very deep, meaningful discussion." So in that sense, being very sociable does not...... mean being an extrovert. Wanting to share ideas and wanting to talk about philosophy, talk about deeper things, that is an inherently, you know, it could be called an introverted thing, even though it, it involves other people. I believe that I kind of fit into something like that. And ultimately, you can see during this documentary, he wants that the whole time. You know, when you have, when you're that famous and making that much money for other people, those other people are going to treat you like a product. They're, because they make money off of you. So, at no point in any time did anyone stop to talk politics with the man. And that's all he wanted to do, talk politics, talk religion, talk philosophy. You know, my wife, her parents and their friends would get together and they would talk about politics, religion, and philosophy. The three things that at the dinner table with friends you are not supposed to talk about, right? They would have all of their friends come over, and those are the three things that they would talk about. Because they, i- i- it's like, what are we then if we're just a system of bullshit that we just regurgitate to each other? Right? I, I totally agree, at least a half hour a week. That's nothing, man. Half hour a week is nothing.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:08:27

        It's the way, it's, it's the way to program it in.

    22. ZTZack Telander1:08:28

        Nothing.

13. 1:08:28 – 1:29:05

    High agency and ‘show your work’: action beats ideas, credibility criteria for coaches, and internet accountability

    1. CWChris Williamson1:08:28

       So here's another one for you, this is something you may not have heard of before. George McGill, who is the highest ever played episode, he's just a mate, just an, essentially a nobody. Highest ever played episode, more than Robert Greene, more than Aubrey Marcus, more than Dave Castro or Dan Bailey.

    2. ZTZack Telander1:08:42

       Wow.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:42

       Um, and it's just a conversation between me and him and he brings up this idea which is called high agency. He says it's the single most useful skill, the most powerful skill in the 21st century. It's a conversation about mental models and high agency is one of them. High agency is a, uh, ability for a person to enact change as they see fit within the world. And the way to work out who your friend with high agency, or the highest agency friend that you have is, is to do this mental, uh, exercise. I'm gonna get you to do it now and I wanna hear your answer.

    4. ZTZack Telander1:09:16

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:09:16

       So imagine that you are put into a foreign jail, let's say South America. You're put in a South American jail, somewhere, Panama, somewhere proper na- you, you can get fucked up. And, um, you have to get out in 24 hours. Who do you call? You can call one friend.

    6. ZTZack Telander1:09:36

       Hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:09:36

       Who's the person that you call?

    8. ZTZack Telander1:09:42

       It's, it's definitely gonna be the person that is the most communicative, right? The most dependable person.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:09:50

       Well, think about it, think about what they're gonna be able to do. They, they're not going to need anyone else. They're gonna have incredible solidarity, they're gonna be able to think laterally, orthogonally. They're gonna be able to, as you say, they're gonna manipulate things in terms of a social aspect, they're gonna be likable, they're gonna be able to think outside of the box. You know, all of these different, all these different things.

    10. ZTZack Telander1:10:08

        Right.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:08

        And the crucial, the crucial thing is, they do all of that in motion. So it's not that they can abstractly think about what they would do, it's the ability of someone, because there's tons of people that have great ideas. There's mi- how many people have you heard that say, "Ah, I'd love to start a YouTube channel."

    12. ZTZack Telander1:10:24

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:10:24

        "Yeah, I love, I really like doing video." Or people that say, "Man, I, I love having conversations."

    14. ZTZack Telander1:10:28

        They're act- yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:10:28

        "I love listening to podcasts." It's like, put it into motion.

    16. ZTZack Telander1:10:32

        Yeah, the actionable person too is what, what matters.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:10:35

        Who do you think you'd bring?

    18. ZTZack Telander1:10:35

        The person that gets shit done.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:10:36

        Who would you bring?

    20. ZTZack Telander1:10:37

        Uh, probably my buddy Auggie. He's, uh, one of my longest and best friends. He, he would answer and, you know, he would get a plan together in action, like, almost immediately for sure. You know? For sure, no question. Um, and I think, you know, that's, it's interesting you say that. Uh, my coach Max, he a- he always says, "Ideas are meaningless." You know, um, ideas are, are absolutely meaningless. It's the, it's the ... What am I thinking? What, what kind of phrase am I thinking about? It's the actionable ... Oh God. Capitalization, no. It's, uh, he, he always uses this as an example. Um, Uber as an idea is a great idea, but supposedly, and I don't know if this is completely true still, it's losing money as a company.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:11:32

        Yeah.

    22. ZTZack Telander1:11:33

        Is that true?

    23. CWChris Williamson1:11:33

        Yeah, I think so.

    24. ZTZack Telander1:11:34

        Right, so it's not a good company. It's not. I mean, I'll be the first person to say that. If you're losing money, you're not a good company. Right? Does that-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:11:44

        Great idea, bad company.

    26. ZTZack Telander1:11:46

        Yes. Okay. So his thing, that Max says is, "If you could, you would." That's it. If you could do it, wouldn't you do it? If you can sit there and criticize someone on the way that they're doing something, that would mean that you could do it. And if you could do it, wouldn't you fucking do it? You know?

    27. CWChris Williamson1:12:15

        That's a really good way, that's a really, really good way to put it. You know, I'm sure that-

    28. ZTZack Telander1:12:19

        It's as simple as it gets. (laughs) Like ...

    29. CWChris Williamson1:12:21

        So, pe- a lot of people, I did an episode with Dr. David Sinclair, um, Harvard Medical School, one of the 50 most influential health professionals on the planet. Immediately after Rogan had him and then I had him. I'm just-

    30. ZTZack Telander1:12:31

        Wow.

Episode duration: 1:30:54