Stereotypes In The Fitness Industry - Zack Telander | Modern Wisdom Podcast 168

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   For a weightlifter, if…

   1. ZTZack Telander0:00

      For a weightlifter, if they don't snatch and clean and jerk well, well, their identity is now missing. So they're going to snatch and clean and jerk well, and they're gonna do whatever it takes to do that. CrossFitters can get theirs in the gym in so many different ways. So in-

   2. CWChris Williamson0:13

      There's more, more places to hide as a CrossFitter.

   3. ZTZack Telander0:15

      Yeah. Yeah, but when you're taking your shirt off and you're wearing your hot pants, you can't hide, right? And so for them, it's like, "I'm gonna get my nutrition locked in. I'm not gonna go party on the weekends. I am going to get enough sleep." You know? There's the recovery aspect that I really do feel like CrossFitters work on really, really hard, compared to powerlifters or maybe, maybe weightlifters.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:42

      Talk to me about what your favorite pre-workout drink is. What's your pre-workout of choice?

   5. ZTZack Telander0:49

      Uh, I, I love caffeine, so like, um, you know, there's... Uh, do you know who Omar Issa is?

   6. CWChris Williamson0:58

      No.

   7. ZTZack Telander0:58

      He's a, he's a, he's kind of, he's a YouTuber. Um, he actually does have a lot of good knowledge around, um, fitness and, you know, strength and culture and stuff like that.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:10

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ZTZack Telander1:10

      And, uh, his product is called Ouroboros or Ouroboros.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:15

       (laughs)

   11. ZTZack Telander1:16

       Um, and it's, it's really, like, clean. It's, there's only, like, five ingredients, you know? It's, like, caffeine, creatine, uh, beta-alanine, like, the five core ingredients to a pre-workout, and it's only 200 milligrams of caffeine. I usually try to take that a half hour before training. Um, and then I, I like to have a relatively kind of empty stomach before I take my pre-workout, so I, sometimes I will wake up, um, and, you know, I might have, like... I, I always drink, like, a, a green drink, uh, to get my greens in. And then I might just, like, take my pre-workout and go to the gym, like, without anything in my stomach. But if I'm gonna train a little bit later, like, say, (clears throat) like, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 PM, I'll have, uh, oats or, like, some sort of carb, and then I'll just chill for, like, two hours and then go. I will never really... Sometimes I guess I'll have, like, scrambled eggs too, 'cause, like, for me, it's really hard to get all of my protein in per day.

   12. CWChris Williamson2:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. ZTZack Telander2:28

       So if I'm not eating protein for, you know, four of the hours of the day or five hours a day, and then I go to the gym and I come back, now I'm in this huge kind of hole where I have-

   14. CWChris Williamson2:40

       Yeah.

   15. ZTZack Telander2:40

       ... to gain back all the protein.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:42

       It's the, it's the never-ending treadmill of trying to eat, uh, everyone that's listening that's got a diet that requires them to have high volumes of protein, and mine at the moment, my cals are, like, I think 210, two, 210 grams of protein per day.

   17. ZTZack Telander2:53

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson2:53

       Which isn't, like, ridiculous, but I'd say it's, like, moderate, moderate-high for someone who's-

   19. ZTZack Telander2:58

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson2:58

       ... like, in 80 kilos range. And, um, fuck, man. Like, you're right. If you get to-

   21. ZTZack Telander3:03

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson3:03

       ... 2:00 PM and you've not had any protein yet, like, that's gonna-

   23. ZTZack Telander3:06

       Exactly.

   24. CWChris Williamson3:06

       ... remainder of the day is gonna suck bad.

   25. ZTZack Telander3:08

       So, yeah. I mean, I do like to train empty stomach, ideal world, you know, like, um, or having a big meal and then chilling, letting it all digest, and then going to the gym. I'm not a believer in, like, eating a pre-workout meal. I don't like, I don't think that that's... I think that's kind of like bro-science-y type stuff. Um, and then, yeah, I just do caffeine, and then after, you know, I'm, I have to, you know, sometimes I wanna get 250 to 270 grams of protein, uh, because of my body weight, and, like, I have to have two or three shakes, you know, a day, just 'cause I can't... I don't like eating that much, like, chicken breast and, and meat. Um, but I do actually notice the difference on high protein. Like, I really, really do. Um, and-

   26. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Recovery, mood?

   27. ZTZack Telander3:57

       No, just fit, uh, physique-wise. Like, I don't, I don't... And that's something that I don't really care too much about, but it's nice to have, you know? It, it, as a weightlifter, your, you know, your primary focus is to be healthy and in shape so that you can perform what you need to perform. It's not about aesthetics. Um, but I know that, that if your aesthetics are right, there's a chance that your body composition is right, and therefore you're maximizing, um, your weight class, or, I- if that makes sense. You know, if you, you have too much body fat, you, it's too much weight for your weight class that is not usable. And so, um, something I've noticed on, like, a very high protein diet is that I can be a little bit more sloppy, if that makes sense, in-

   28. CWChris Williamson4:50

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   29. ZTZack Telander4:51

       ... you know, in the way that I eat. But that's a big stipulation. That's a big thing to do to try to get enough protein, um, because if you wanna get enough protein and eat poorly, it's not gonna happen, you know? If you wanna eat enough protein and go to, you know, McDonald's or Taco Bell, like, you're gonna get really fat or whatever. But eat enough protein, then you don't have to count, uh, your macros as hard or, or be as diligent. Um-

   30. CWChris Williamson5:20

       Well, there's, there's no, there's no cheat meal that's high in protein. No one's like-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   30,000-foot view of your…

   1. ZTZack Telander15:00

      then, since that point, I've fallen back into weightlifting. Throughout all of that, that whole thing where I graduated college to now, um, I've been weightlifting in and out of being involved in CrossFit. And I'd say the last two and a half, three years have been like pure weightlifting. Um, but I had, you know, I've been coaching weightlifting, I've been coaching the lifts, I've been competing in weightlifting since 2013. So that's kind of the broad picture of my training.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:32

      30,000-foot view of your athletic-

   3. ZTZack Telander15:35

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:35

      ... background. It's so funny-

   5. ZTZack Telander15:36

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:36

      ... about the, um... when you want to go and do something that is focused on finding the best people or getting to the, toward the top or the peak of people's performance, I'm reminded of, uh, Ryan Holiday. Do you know how he started his writing career out? So he went and assisted Robert Greene, five times New York Times best-selling author, Mastery-

   7. ZTZack Telander15:58

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:59

      ... The 48 Laws of Power, all that stuff, and previous Modern Wisdom guest. Um, he went and assisted him for free as a research-

   9. ZTZack Telander16:06

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:06

       ... a research assistant. And, you know, you've got Robert Greene writing these huge books, drawing on 3000 years worth of history. "And oh, Ryan, I need to find out about where Julius Caesar's this, this thing happened. Can you fuck off to the library and go and sort it for me?" And, um, he just did that. But then you get... coming out the other side of that, you get this ridiculous experience. And that presumably-

   11. ZTZack Telander16:26

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:26

       ... is the same for you, getting to work at a p- such an incredible level, and then you can distill that back down.

   13. ZTZack Telander16:32

       Yeah, like, uh, working at Collegiate Strength and Conditioning, and I know that you... Like there... I'm sure there's a lot of Americans that listen, but if you're, you know, European or elsewhere in the world, like it is a big, big deal, uh, in America. Especially at a place like Texas A&M, which is a 60,000 student university. 60,000 students undergrad. Like that's the, the level. And the amount of money that comes in to this... to, to sporting here is like, it's something you would compare to, uh, a major football club in the English Premier League. Like it's, it's seriously that intense. Our stadium right over there, it houses 100... 110,000 fans. So when you go see one of those, uh, games.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:19

       That is insane.

   15. ZTZack Telander17:20

       Yeah. So a lot of people want to be strength coaches because they have... there are these, these really prominent, uh, programs. And so it's a very saturated market. But the process is, you know, you have to be an intern. You have to build your way up and then hopefully-

   16. CWChris Williamson17:37

       Earn your stripes kind of.

   17. ZTZack Telander17:39

       Yes. And, uh, that is... For the most part, at least my experience, it was for free. What I did... I felt like, you know, I was competing in weightlifting, you know, in and out. And then I, I had like what you would call like a fellowship program at Texas A&M where I was actually being paid and it was kind of nice. Um, once that finished up, I kind of wanted to just take a break and, and focus on weightlifting and, and trying to be a better... And-... maybe going into private. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. Um, but I knew that the, the lineage, that it, it seemed very bureaucratic to, to be involved in something like, like that, you know? And I, I feel like I'm maybe more of a creative person than ... Uh, it, it just might not have been the best fit for me. Um, and so I remember my next job after that, I ... because I needed to make money, was, uh, a personal trainer at a Gold's Gym. And it was actually-

   18. CWChris Williamson18:44

       I would have loved, I would have loved to have seen that.

   19. ZTZack Telander18:46

       Yeah. And it was actually, uh, not a bad gig, man. Like, it really was ... It was pretty cool, and there was actually some pretty knowledgeable people there, um, and making good money. And for me, it wasn't a means ... It, it, it wa- it wasn't, like, "Oh, I'm gonna be a, a Gold's Gym personal trainer for the rest of my life," you know? "I'm gonna figure out the next step, but right now it's pretty good," you know? "I, I'm in a cheaper place, a cheaper, uh, cost of living area. Um, a lot of stuff is going good in my life." So someone actually mentioned, like, "Hey, you should check out YouTube for, uh, like, putting your stuff on YouTube." And so I didn't really know what the purpose of YouTube was. Like, I, I literally thought it was just a place where you could, like, send links to other people, like you would just send, you know, and watch. I didn't know that people had channels where they would kind of use it as this social outlet. Uh, it wasn't, like, a community type thing. And then when this person showed me, like, they showed me Casey Neistat. They showed me, um, some of, like, the bigger names, like ... God, I can't ... uh, David Dobrik, and stuff like that. I was like, "Wow, this is ..."

   20. CWChris Williamson19:58

       Yeah.

   21. ZTZack Telander19:58

       "... this culture is crazy." Like, I, I had no idea, you know? It's like I, I felt like I was blind to it. I just wasn't paying attention or something like that. So I would just consume that content all the time. Then I, I made, uh, some videos around my training for CrossFit. And I remember, like ... 'Cause I, I, I ... when I went to school, I was a film and television studies major and then, like, a, a business minor. And I remember, like, being really, really into editing and, like, loving film production. That's why I wanted to do it. So when I made these vlogs of my training for CrossFitt, CrossFit, it was like ... It would take me a long time. I would, I would make these, like, really serious edits, and then I would put them on YouTube, and no one would watch them. And I remember I posted one to a CrossFit page, uh, uh, the CrossFit Reddit page, and some guy was like, "Listen, you're not that ... You're not that good-looking. (laughs) You're not that good at CrossFit," right? "And you're not telling us, like, anything about your story, or, and you don't have any expertise." And I was like, "Well, first off, I'm not that bad looking."

   22. CWChris Williamson21:12

       (laughs)

   23. ZTZack Telander21:12

       "Okay?" You know, um, but no, I w- I, you know, I took that ... I was like, kind of like, you know, "Fuck this guy, he doesn't know anything." But then also I was like, "Well, that's true." At, at ... My videos were all very surface level, just had nothing to them.

   24. CWChris Williamson21:27

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ZTZack Telander21:28

       I think it was because I was trying to cater to what Casey Neistat had already established himself as, you know? People were involved in his story before the content that I saw. People were not involved in my story. People don't know who the fuck I am. So one thing the guy said is, like, "Do you have any expertise?" And I said, "Hell yeah. I mean, I, I have a lot of expertise in weightlifting." So my next video, I completely revamped. I was like, "You know what? I see this issue in the snatch, uh, and here's how you fix it. Um, uh, here's the issue being played out," and I'll show an example. "Here's what it should look like, and here are the drills you can do to fix it. Thank you guys for watching." Boom, send it out. I deleted my other YouTube vlogs. I clicked the link to this, copy-pasted, put it a- put it on Reddit, uh, weightlifting, and they loved it. Everyone in that ... in, in the Reddit community was like, "This is awesome, man."

   26. CWChris Williamson22:32

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ZTZack Telander22:32

       "Keep doing it." Um, and so I, I basically was like, "Okay, I'll do another one next week, because I have another idea," and that one did well, and I've just repeated that for now two and a half, three years, and I've got 103,000 subscribers. And it w- it was really interesting how that all played out. It was like ... It seemed so intuitive and so natural to just put what you know out there, and if someone likes it somewhere, there's a chance that maybe someone else might like it, and it might snowball from there. But you can't give yourself the benefit of the doubt if you try to do something that you're not, or if you try to do what other people are doing.

   28. CWChris Williamson23:16

       Man, I-

   29. ZTZack Telander23:17

       So ... (clears throat)

   30. CWChris Williamson23:18

       ... I have been talking about this a lot recently, which is your weirdness is your superpower. So the unique offering that you have to put out, or that I have to put out, or anybody that's listening has, that is your USP, because no one, literally no one else on the planet, even a twin brother or a twin sister, has precisely the same mix of life experiences and interests and talents and proclivities and background-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah, exactly. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

      who's mainstream media?"

   2. ZTZack Telander30:01

      Yeah, exactly.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:01

      Like, who is mainstream media? Now, there's traditional media. Traditional media's that. Mainstream media, I don't think so, and I agree.

   4. ZTZack Telander30:09

      Right, and, um, when Joe had the epidemiologist on his show-

   5. CWChris Williamson30:15

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ZTZack Telander30:16

      ... um, when, it w- it was about four weeks ago, uh, when the coronavirus scare was beginning, uh-That's where I got all of my information. That's where I got everything, was the professional epidemiologist who was as clear-cut and as dry as it could possibly be. There was zero entertainment value. None of it. There was no editing. It was a guy in a room talking to another guy about what the fuck is happening. That, to me, was like, "Oh, finally."

   7. CWChris Williamson30:49

      Thank you.

   8. ZTZack Telander30:50

      Thank you. After this disease or this virus has been out in, in China, and it was ... Dude, it was going on in January, and I remember people being like ... There were some memes being made, and then w- then, then it was like, "Ah, fuck it, you know, it's in Wuhan, no one really cares." You know? Like, I remember that. We, I had practice, I mean, weightlifting practice, um, and all my, my lifters are students at Texas A&M, you know, they're college kids, they weren't even giving a shit. No one gave a shit about this thing, and it was mainly 'cause no one knew anything, like, you c- we could have figured this out. Like, we could have just been m- more informed earlier on. And, um, what was amazing was I still wasn't informed at all, uh, I had a sem- I had two seminars, one of them was gonna be last week in Maine, so I would have had to (laughs) take a flight.

   9. CWChris Williamson31:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ZTZack Telander31:46

       There's no way in hell.

   11. CWChris Williamson31:47

       Yeah.

   12. ZTZack Telander31:48

       Um, but when I saw this epidemiologist, or I think it was like a, like a vir-

   13. CWChris Williamson31:54

       Virologist, I think.

   14. ZTZack Telander31:55

       V- Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, I saw him. It was super clear-cut, super dry, he told me exactly what I needed to know-

   15. CWChris Williamson32:03

       Mm.

   16. ZTZack Telander32:03

       ... what's probably gonna happen, you know-

   17. CWChris Williamson32:06

       We're fucked.

   18. ZTZack Telander32:06

       ... why this is so bad, we're fucked. All this stuff, and it, and he told me and it was good. Instead of Donald Trump being like, you know, "We're, we have the most tremendous scientists, you know, everything is the best, we're ... You know, it's not a big deal." Like-

   19. CWChris Williamson32:20

       So-

   20. ZTZack Telander32:20

       ... just tell us, just tell us what the fuck is going on and I'll be on my way. And-

   21. CWChris Williamson32:23

       Well, here's the thing, here's the thing as well about the main- mainstream media. I'm gonna reprogram myself to say, like, the traditional media.

   22. ZTZack Telander32:30

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson32:30

       The thing about traditional media, when they have these panel shows, um, first off, w- it's, it's a cliché now to talk about, you know, you get your 30-second spot and you're trying to get a zinger in so it's a good YouTube video. Like, that's old. What I think is more interesting is, people presume that a large lineup of guests equals a high amount of value. It's like, "Oh, well, look at this. They've got Ben Affleck and Sam Harris on the same show, and it's Bill Maher's show." Or, "They've got this guy, he's a virologist, and this woman, she's a public health official, and this guy..." And you're like, right, I know that sounds great. That sounds fantastic. But it's the, it's the girl who has played hard to get for ages with big titties that doesn't care about having sex with you. It's like, all of the stuff, all of the headlines sound fantastic, but the actual performance and what you get out of it is t- completely terrible.

   24. ZTZack Telander33:23

       Yeah. Yes. It's, um, it's always been when we've privatized, uh, something that shouldn't be privatized. So we've privatized media or, or we've privatized news. That makes zero sense. News is public. That's the definition of it. It's delivering events, things that have happened, ways to protect yourself, all of these different things. And we've privatized that, so people make money. So you ca- there was a ... I just saw this goddamn, um, clip, man, and this woman was like, "We're working on a vaccine." Um, "We're working on a vaccine, and so we go to this company," and it's like, this is like ABC, right? "Working on a vaccine." And then they talk to the, the lead scientist of this vaccine, and they're like, "When we talk to the lead scientist, who, who's making this vaccine on the floor," and then the person's like, "Yeah, we're ready to, like, make the vaccine." And they're like, "And back to you." It was like, I'm not even kidding you, 10 seconds, it was like, are you kidding me? I would have sat there and listened to this person talk for 30 minutes. I'm not allowed to leave my fucking house, and you guys are still making four-minute-long clips where the, the lead scientist making a vaccination that could save millions of lives is now being fucking pigeonholed into a ten-second bit so you can try and get more views? Like, that ... Why are we in that world? It's a, there's, it's ... No wonder why people give, uh, more of a shit about Joe Rogan where he sits down with guys for three hours and he's like, "Huh, interesting." You know? Like, I, I just remember being f- absolutely floored after that. You know?

   25. CWChris Williamson35:14

       Well, it's good to-

   26. ZTZack Telander35:14

       And it, it's the same old song and dance. It happens every time.

   27. CWChris Williamson35:16

       As bad as it is, the advantage, for as long as that game continues to be played by traditional media, there is a gap in the market for people like me, people like you-

   28. ZTZack Telander35:26

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson35:26

       ... people like Rogan, people like Eric Weinstein. You know, because it's not being serviced. And the fact, it's like the stats, again, it's cliché to say, but I think podcast stats essentially double ... It's like the, uh, Moore's law, like every two years they're doubling the, the total number of global listens.

   30. ZTZack Telander35:43

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Uh, pa- there's an-…

   1. ZTZack Telander45:00

      And so for them it's like, "I'm gonna get my nutrition locked in. I'm not gonna go party on the weekends. I am going to get enough sleep," you know? There's the recovery aspect of that I think of CrossF- I, I really do feel like Reco- CrossFitters work on really, really, really hard compared to powerlifters or maybe, maybe weightlifters.

   2. CWChris Williamson45:20

      Uh, pa- there's an- there's another one actually as well. I don't know s- so much about weightlifters 'cause I've not watched their sessions quite so closely. But I know for an absolute fact that powerlifting has to be the least time efficient sport to train in-

   3. ZTZack Telander45:35

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:36

      ... ever known.

   5. ZTZack Telander45:37

      Well, that is true, but it's mainly, again, that's a path of least resistance. There, if you, you watch powerlifters, they... So weightlifters, we sit down a lot when we're training.

   6. CWChris Williamson45:50

      (laughs)

   7. ZTZack Telander45:50

      But at the same time, the relative loads that we're lifting are nowhere near as high as powerlifters'.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:55

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   9. ZTZack Telander45:56

      So we can get up and go lift again. Like, we, you know, sometimes you start t- having conversations and not losing focus. But powerlifters, it's like they just killed themselves in their last set, so they're gonna rest, and then that rest turns into something that's, like, 10 minutes long.

   10. CWChris Williamson46:13

       A lot of phone use-

   11. ZTZack Telander46:15

       Yes.

   12. CWChris Williamson46:15

       ... choosing the next track.

   13. ZTZack Telander46:18

       Yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson46:18

       Yeah.

   15. ZTZack Telander46:18

       Yes. So I, I think though weightlifters do that quite a bit. And every once in a while when I'm coaching, I have to get on my weightlifters' asses to be like, "Hey, we're training now. Like, let's go." You know?

   16. CWChris Williamson46:31

       That's, that's one of the things especially, uh, uh, to fly the flag at least in part for CrossFit because we're just, we're just kind of ba- (laughs) bashing everyone at the moment. Um, to fly the flag at least in part for CrossFit, I like the fact that it is a part of your day where your phone is left in your bag, you know? You could-

   17. ZTZack Telander46:46

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:46

       ... you get your whiteboard out, you write your workout on your whiteboard, phone goes in bag, there's a clock on the wall. That's it, done. But especially as a weightlifter 'cause the requirement now, this 21st century requirement with weightlifters and powerlifters, especially those that are getting remote coaching to video every one of their lifts, and then they go over, they take the phone off the little Joby grip that's attached to the rig on the far side. They watch the video back. Then they choose the next track, then they get sucked into Instagram, "Oh, I'll put an Instagram story up, I'll do this-"

   19. ZTZack Telander47:15

       Yep.

   20. CWChris Williamson47:15

       ... that and the other." You know?

   21. ZTZack Telander47:16

       Yep.

   22. CWChris Williamson47:16

       It's vicious, vicious cycle.

   23. ZTZack Telander47:18

       It's, uh, yeah, that, when I coach my guys, it's kind of a thing where I just, they don't, they're not allowed to have their cellphones out. So, um, and that just, everyone's focused on each other, focused on themselves, focused on the barbell. And then, you know, you can, when we go to do accessories, you can bring your phone and chat and stuff. I don't care too much. But, um, for the most part, I try to limit the phone usage completely during practice times, um, 'cause it's not helping anyone, you know? It's not even helping you. If they want video of something, like, yeah, that's, that's fine, you know, if someone wants a video. But for the most part, people wouldn't even abuse it anyways because it's, like, kinda, like, it's a social event. Like, you wanna be there with your team. You wanna watch other people lift. You wanna kinda cheer them on and stuff like that.

   24. CWChris Williamson48:09

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ZTZack Telander48:09

       Um, but, you know, I, I actually was just talking about this yesterday. I don't know if, do you know who Michelle Letendre is?

   26. CWChris Williamson48:17

       No.

   27. ZTZack Telander48:18

       So she was a, a games athlete. Sh- I think she's b- been to six games, and now she's a coach, and she's coached, she coaches, uh, Patrick Vellner. She coached Laura Horvath. Um, she's, she's a really, really smart person and, um, generally awesome. And we were talking about the differences when she was a CrossFitter and then when she went to qu- compete in weightlifting. And she remembers feeling a lot better when she was lifting heavy while she was a CrossFitter.... um, which is interesting. And I, I think I know why and that's because crossfitters have that ... They can alleviate the pressure from a certain lift. Their fear of snatching heavy or clean and jerking heavy, and fa- fear of failure, any of that, is just not there.

   28. CWChris Williamson49:06

       Why?

   29. ZTZack Telander49:07

       Even when they sw- Because s- it's embedded in their sport. Why would you care about a maximum snatch when you have 13 other things that you have to do? Like, yeah, you want to do the best you can, but this is not your identity. This is not who you are. And when they switch to competitive weightlifting, that still stays with them. They're like, "Oh, it's my first meet, I'm just gonna have fun." "Oh, it's my second meet, you know, this ... I've only done weightlifting for officially for a year now and I just keep PRing all that stuff."

   30. CWChris Williamson49:34

       (laughs)
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yep. …

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      the silent guy, you know, all of these different things, and we try and slot people into this. Part of it is because we're lazy, and it's because we don't want to have to do the work to work out, "Well, hang on. Zach's, like, got a, a bit of this, but he's also got, like, a bit of that in him and a little bit of this, and that doesn't really-"

   2. ZTZack Telander1:00:17

      Yep.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

      "... these two things don't really fit, so I'm kinda gonna forget about that and I'll just have him as the, I'll pin him as the that guy," you know?

   4. ZTZack Telander1:00:23

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:23

      It's like whatever the majority of your personality makeup is, we'll just use that.

   6. ZTZack Telander1:00:29

      The best stories, the best films are the ones that question that, the, the best ones by far. Who do we root for? Who, who's good? Who's bad? What is good and what is bad? What is morality? What is immoral? Th- those are the best stories, and it's really funny because in, in Hollywood, like, people still, they're like, "Well, what's his thing? Like, what..."What's his archetype? Is he the hero of this story? It's like, well, why are we still- why is that everyone's go-to, even though we know the best stories are the ones that question those things. Think about, like, something as simple as, like, The Joker that just came out. Are we on Arthur Fleck's side or are we not? Are, you know, who's good, who's bad? Is Murray bad, is Murray good? We don't, people, like, that, that sort of stuff, it, it causes pain in people. I left that movie theater, and I shit you not, I looked around and I remember hearing conversations of girls and, and guys, everyone being like, "That fucking sucked. That movie sucked. That movie was depressing. I did- I did- I didn't, I'm s- so pissed I went and saw that movie." I walked out of that movie theater being like, that was one of the best movies I've ever sat down and watched, ever. You know? Because I, when I go to something like that, I want i- i- it's helps, it's an exercise to question my surroundings, to question my world. When we want to go to the movie theater and hold up a big foam fin- finger, and get our popcorn, and, you know, cheer on Vin Diesel and, and The Fast and the Furious guys, like, that's fine. But what happens is that sort of mindset carries over into all things culture. We want to deliver an ideology, we want to deliver a subset of things where we can fit people all the goddamn time, and it runs, it, it runs amok. It, it, it kind of, it, it doesn't allow for, for nuance. That is... My channel is based off of nuance, even though it's a simple thing where all I talk about is the snatch and the clean and jerk. Right? If that's it, then I should have ended my channel two years ago, if it's just about those two things. There's no nuance there. But that is the, the goal of my style of coaching, my style of everything is to play with what is, what is the answer. Nuance, nuance, nuance. Always in between the lines, always examining what has prior, what, what people have done, what people have thought, and examine, uh, what I have done and what I have thought, and experiences I've had. If we're not doing things like that, then we're just gonna keep in this cyclical bullshit, uh, narrative, this structure that's always gonna repeat itself over and over and over again. That it... And in all honesty, that was all I did... I, I, here is my structure. If anyone is listening to, to how I made my YouTube channel what it is. Instead of saying, "Here's how you do the snatch. You do the snatch like this, you do the, you do this, you do that. Thank you for watching," I was saying, "When you learn this thing, it's likely that this will happen, and it's likely that you'll be told to do this. What I have found, through my own experimentation, is that either of those could work, uh, if done like this or this or this." Do you see the, the variance in that? That right there, it has like, you know, offshoots of, of different routes you can go, different things. I want to empower the viewer, not tell them what to do. So, I continually will try to do that. When, when I, when someone wants me to m- to do a video on programming, I think, "What is the issue, actually?" I don't wanna, I don't wanna write a program and say, "Do this." I wanna know what it is that most people do wrong, and I wanna fix it or, or offer suggestions on how you can fix it. And that's it. And then, and honest to God, I know I just went on like a huge rant, but that, that is the biggest, without question, part of my success. And I'm sure, as far as your podcast goes, that's what you wanna do too. You wanna live in the nuance. Right?

   7. CWChris Williamson1:05:07

      That's what I'm here for, man. That's literally, that's what interests me. It's the reason that I have these conversations, you know? And I say, I've said it a million times, I'm gonna say it again. If you are not having a conversation with a friend about a cons- a concept that you are interested in for at least half an hour a week where your phones are outside of the room, then you are missing out on the opportunity to develop yourself. I think it's like, oh, well, I need to do my yoga this week, or I need to do my mobility today, or I need to go for a walk, I need to get my 10,000 steps. Once a week, you need to have a conversation with a friend that's not distracted by other things, because it, it sharpens your skills, it en- improves the precision of your thoughts, improves your ability to articulate things. Um-

   8. ZTZack Telander1:05:46

      I, I, it could be with yourself, man. Like, I-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:05:49

      It could. Well, you could record a monologue. You could s-

   10. ZTZack Telander1:05:51

       I-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:05:51

       Everyone's got a phone.

   12. ZTZack Telander1:05:53

       I mean, I, I definitely talk to myself for sure. Like, there's no question. And I know that might sound weird or whatever, but I, sometimes I'll be walking the dogs and I'll just think out loud. Sometimes I'll just start talking, and it, it looks like I have schizophrenia-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:06:08

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ZTZack Telander1:06:09

       ... but, but realistically, like, I, I couldn't agree more with... Um, you know, did you ever see the documentary on Avicii?

   15. CWChris Williamson1:06:18

       Yes.

   16. ZTZack Telander1:06:18

       The, uh, the one on Netflix?

   17. CWChris Williamson1:06:20

       Yeah.

   18. ZTZack Telander1:06:20

       Okay, so there's the part where he says he's really interested in this article or maybe this study that's, that talks about the type of introverts there are. And he's like, "I'm kind of what you would call an extroverted introvert," or something like that. And he's like, "I am not interested in going out and partying, but I am very interested in being social and sharing ideas with people, and very deep, meaningful discussion." So in that sense, being very sociable does not...... mean being an extrovert. Wanting to share ideas and wanting to talk about philosophy, talk about deeper things, that is an inherently, you know, it could be called an introverted thing, even though it, it involves other people. I believe that I kind of fit into something like that. And ultimately, you can see during this documentary, he wants that the whole time. You know, when you have, when you're that famous and making that much money for other people, those other people are going to treat you like a product. They're, because they make money off of you. So, at no point in any time did anyone stop to talk politics with the man. And that's all he wanted to do, talk politics, talk religion, talk philosophy. You know, my wife, her parents and their friends would get together and they would talk about politics, religion, and philosophy. The three things that at the dinner table with friends you are not supposed to talk about, right? They would have all of their friends come over, and those are the three things that they would talk about. Because they, i- i- it's like, what are we then if we're just a system of bullshit that we just regurgitate to each other? Right? I, I totally agree, at least a half hour a week. That's nothing, man. Half hour a week is nothing.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:08:27

       It's the way, it's, it's the way to program it in.

   20. ZTZack Telander1:08:28

       Nothing.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:08:28

       So here's another one for you, this is something you may not have heard of before. George McGill, who is the highest ever played episode, he's just a mate, just an, essentially a nobody. Highest ever played episode, more than Robert Greene, more than Aubrey Marcus, more than Dave Castro or Dan Bailey.

   22. ZTZack Telander1:08:42

       Wow.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:08:42

       Um, and it's just a conversation between me and him and he brings up this idea which is called high agency. He says it's the single most useful skill, the most powerful skill in the 21st century. It's a conversation about mental models and high agency is one of them. High agency is a, uh, ability for a person to enact change as they see fit within the world. And the way to work out who your friend with high agency, or the highest agency friend that you have is, is to do this mental, uh, exercise. I'm gonna get you to do it now and I wanna hear your answer.

   24. ZTZack Telander1:09:16

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:09:16

       So imagine that you are put into a foreign jail, let's say South America. You're put in a South American jail, somewhere, Panama, somewhere proper na- you, you can get fucked up. And, um, you have to get out in 24 hours. Who do you call? You can call one friend.

   26. ZTZack Telander1:09:36

       Hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:09:36

       Who's the person that you call?

   28. ZTZack Telander1:09:42

       It's, it's definitely gonna be the person that is the most communicative, right? The most dependable person.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:09:50

       Well, think about it, think about what they're gonna be able to do. They, they're not going to need anyone else. They're gonna have incredible solidarity, they're gonna be able to think laterally, orthogonally. They're gonna be able to, as you say, they're gonna manipulate things in terms of a social aspect, they're gonna be likable, they're gonna be able to think outside of the box. You know, all of these different, all these different things.

   30. ZTZack Telander1:10:08

       Right.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:23:24

   I think it becomes-…

   1. ZTZack Telander1:15:00

      what are you doing, how are you educating yourself? It could be, you know, you, you go and you find a mentor. You, you go and you visit someone and you have a podcast with them. Like, those are educational moments. Those are things for growth. And if you can't provide me with those three things, in any light, you are not, you are not doing a good job of proving yourself in whatever field that is. What have you done, what have you done with others, and what the fuck is your education or how are you educating yourself? And some people, I'll say, "What have you done?" And they'll be like, "I don't have anything." Yeah, okay, so why are we having this discussion, uh, random internet commenter who thinks they know fucking better? You know, this is, another thing too is, the people that are the quickest to talk shit to me or talk about me or about anyone are the last people to be doing it themselves. I, when I go to these weightlifting meets, I see the same coaches, the same lifters at every single one of them. And I'm so happy to see them. They're always there. And the people that, that comment, that talk shit, that create the most noise, are never there. Ever. It's as simple as that. Show up. Just show up. Just show up. Be a part of it if you wanna fix it. That, you know, it's like, it's like in any ... Americans, and I'm sure people from the UK, love complaining about politics on their Facebook or whatever. But they'll never, ever do anything about it. Ever. Ever. Ever. Ever. You know? It's just, it's, it's, shit like that is, is mind-boggling to me.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:16:47

      I think it becomes-

   3. ZTZack Telander1:16:48

      You know?

   4. CWChris Williamson1:16:48

      ... particularly, it becomes particularly irritating to somebody like yourself or, uh, you know, anyone that's listening, it doesn't, you, you, you know, us fucking children of the 21st century with our newfangled YouTubes and Instagram podcast profiles and all this shit. Like, it doesn't matter about that, but there's people that are listening who have high agency that are just great moms, great brothers, great, you know-

   5. ZTZack Telander1:17:09

      Yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:17:09

      ... employees, g- great managers, great directors of companies, whatever it might be, but there's still people that have that high agency that still are in motion, right? They're doing stuff. But you're right, the, it's the, the same people who always tend to comment but don't ever put it into action, and that, there's something particularly triggering about that in a way-

   7. ZTZack Telander1:17:29

      It's, it's weakness.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:17:31

      ... but it's, it's, it makes you feel, um, you, it, it's gobsmacked. You're like, "That guy, that guy said that thing."

   9. ZTZack Telander1:17:42

      Well, yeah, and-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:17:43

       "That guy, that guy said it. What, how do you, how did he say it?" You know, like why?

   11. ZTZack Telander1:17:46

       So even still, like even still, I try to avoid even, uh, like the simplicity of getting upset with a, by a commenter. What I like to know is wh- the, you look at the huge picture around that. Why are they commenting and what are they not doing? What is, what is the process that we are in as a society that allows this type of shit? You know? 'cause like you said, there's a lot of people out there listening who are fucking awesome people. And when I see someone who kicks ass as a father, who kicks, or, or kicks ass as a mother, brother, uh, just kicks ass as a fucking person and doesn't have any followers or anything like that, like crazy going on, they're just good people, like, I have more respect for them than anyone that, it, it, there's no separation. I don't give a shit who you are. If you can prove to me those things, like, I love you as a person. And I will always and forever. The person, though, that like, the first thing they think about is complaining with no action, that is, like you said, im- gobsmacked? I don't know. That's kind of a-

   12. CWChris Williamson1:19:06

       (laughs)

   13. ZTZack Telander1:19:06

       ... a non-American term.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:19:07

       It might be, but it's-

   15. ZTZack Telander1:19:08

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson1:19:08

       ... where your jaw hits the floor.

   17. ZTZack Telander1:19:10

       Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're, it, it, that is the shit that is insane to me. And it's way, way too common.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:19:16

       Mm-hmm.

   19. ZTZack Telander1:19:17

       Like, okay, you post a, you post something. The first thing I want to think about is, what's a negative comment I can put to that? What's wrong about this? And I'm going to post it immediately, so everyone can hear my-

   20. CWChris Williamson1:19:28

       It's really weird, 'cause I, I, I don't think, except for Brian Rose from London Real, who looks like a cod out of water and I dislike intensely, um-

   21. ZTZack Telander1:19:36

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson1:19:36

       ... except for him, I, I don't think I've ever said anything bad about anyone on the internet. I'm- my, my vendetta for Brian Rose aside, like, that's it. I, I, and I don't understand people who go out of their way to say anything bad. Like you, let's say that you put up, let's say your next video, I'm sure it won't be-

   23. ZTZack Telander1:19:56

       Yeah, be- because you wouldn't, you wouldn't-

   24. CWChris Williamson1:19:58

       But let's say-

   25. ZTZack Telander1:19:59

       ... you wouldn't-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:19:59

       ... let's say that your next-

   27. ZTZack Telander1:19:59

       ... fucking do it-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:20:00

       ... let- (laughs)

   29. ZTZack Telander1:20:00

       ... if you had anything in the game. If you had, like you said, skin in the game, you wouldn't fucking do it.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:20:07

       But let's say that your next video sucks. I'm sure it won't, but let's say that your next video sucks, and we're still chatting.

Episode duration: 1:30:54