EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,088 words- 0:00 – 0:26
Intro
- BBBen Bergeron
What I'm saying is don't settle. Don't live lives of complacency because there is so much out there for us. We all have the right to live incredibly fulfilled, incredibly passionate, incredibly joyful lives where you are psyched it's Monday morning. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
Benjamin, welcome back to the show.
- BBBen Bergeron
Thanks, Chris. Good to be here. Appreciate it.
- 0:26 – 13:10
How Not to ‘Fail by Default’
- BBBen Bergeron
- CWChris Williamson
I wanna start with a quote from your Instagram. "It is impossible to live without failing at something unless you live so cautiously that you might as well have not lived at all. In which case, you fail by default." That's a J.K. Rowling quote. What's that mean to you?
- BBBen Bergeron
(sniffs) Uh, so if you, if you ... You can play it safe, right? You can play it so safe in life that, um, there are no risks. You know, it's basically, it's, it's ... Think of the parallel to exercise. You can live such a life that you will not get hurt exercising. What that looks like is sitting on the couch all day long. So, there is an inherent risk that you will get hurt the moment you do any form of exercise regar- trying to get in shape in any way, shape, or form. And that's the parallel to life. If you are going to try to do anything meaningful in your life, there is an inherent risk that you will not succeed. That should not stop you because if you don't try, you're (laughs) , you're failing by default. You're, you're not going to, um, live a life of any sort of meaningfulness, fulfillment, or impact on anybody else. And that's kind of my measure of success is, is your life meaningful, fulfilled, and does it have an impact on other people? So, get out there and go do it.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems to me that you make quite prudent decisions. Do you have to push yourself to take risks sometimes?
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah, I think that, uh ... So I'm an entrepreneur, so, uh, I think I'm, I'm, I'm not, uh, quite as risk-averse as many other people. But, you know, I, i- it's probably built into, b- but I'm being an entrepreneur, I think it's probably built into my DNA a little bit that I want ... I'm so, um, so driven to live a, a life that I'm proud of, so driven to live a life of meaning and, uh, joy and happiness, and, um, I don't want to put that off for anything. So because of that, I think I'm willing to take more risks along the way. Case in point, um, when, after graduating from college, university, um, I got a really secure job doing finance, and, um, I wasn't feeling fulfilled, so I took the big, massive risk and left the corporate ladder, the security of the paycheck, and this really nice, um, career path, and I didn't know what I was gonna do, but I just moved out to become a ski bum for a year to try to figure it out. 'Cause to me, the risk of not living a life to its fullest meaning is essentially a nightmare. It's hell on Earth. Like, living not on your terms, not taking control and not doing something that you want to do is, um, is not the way I wanna go about things. So because of that, I think that's ... I, I don't even s- uh, when I'm w- making those decisions, I don't necessarily say anything like, "Whoa, this can be really risky." It's just, is the alternative complacency? And if the alternative is complacency, I'm out and I want the other path.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you say to people that need that bit more of a push, that maybe feel a little bit unsatisfied with where they're at, but are struggling to take action?
- BBBen Bergeron
Well, I don't. I don't say it to them because it's their choice to make, and I'm not here to say that the risk is worth the effort because everyone has a different, um, risk aversion and risk, um, willingness scale. And what I say is, um, like, there are certain, plenty of things that I don't wanna do. Like, I, you know, I don't wanna go free solo up El Capitan. Like, that's not, that's too risky for me. But for somebody else, that might be totally within their wheelhouse. So for me to put my value system on what is risky and what is not, um, I'm not here to do that. So if somebody's like, "Should I make the leap? Should I make the jump?" E- that's something that you gotta listen to, and when I say listen to, it's not a matter of weighing out the pros and cons on a piece of paper, list, you know, one side, here's all the things that would go right, here's all the things that could go wrong. To me, it's listen to your gut because your gut has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionarily, evolutionary biology built into that DNA that's helping guide that decision. And if it feels not right in your gut, it probably isn't right. So, that's something that people, I think, can become a little bit more in tune with, is what is their g- I think we're so, um, you know, in today's world, i- influenced to be logical beings. That's what, you know, we say, like, changes us from the apes, is, like, that we have a prefrontal cortex, we can think, we're the only animals that can think about our thoughts. Whereas everyone else has the lizard brain, the amygdala, and we kinda, they o- operate on instinct. I think we've lost a little bit of instinct, and we try to, um, rationalize everything. And I think that's, the gut is the thing that can, uh, that should guide more decision-making along the way if what we're truly looking for is to live meaningful, impactful lives.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I've been thinking about this so much recently.
- BBBen Bergeron
Cool.
- CWChris Williamson
The, the fact that we pray at the altar of cognitive horsepower so much-... right? We just believe that we can wrangle the world around us through just sheer cerebral weight, right? Here's a, here's a, a story. So, um, halfway through last year, I got put on really, really boring, normal medication and I didn't realize, but when the doctor said, "You need to up the dose," I didn't know that it was an anticholinergic. Do you know what that is?
- BBBen Bergeron
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So, choline is one of the neurotransmitters that makes your brain work, basically. When you take nootropics, many of them have choline in them. And over a little bit of time, my thoughts ended up being super muddy. Like, I pride myself on having agile thoughts, right? I'm a podcaster. My- m- that's my money, right? I need to be able to think quickly. What's in my head needs to come out of my mouth. One day, I was out for a walk and it took me 90 seconds to remember a town that I've been to 10 times, like to remember the name of it. I'm thinking, "Okay, there's a, there's some sort of a problem here." And it makes you start to doubt and, and feel very conscious of the fact that you don't have the ability to fix the problems the same way. (smacks lips) And then I realized what it was, dropped the dose, everything was fine, totally reversible. But what I felt for a small amount of time was basically, like, kind of like a dementia-type situation, just a restriction in my processing ability. And I spoke to a friend whose dad had dementia, and he said, "This illness has taken everything from me. It's even taken myself." What he means by that is, when we are people that rely on our brains to get us out of problems, like I know that no matter what the situation is that I get myself into, I can probably think my way to a solution that will get myself out of it, and there's something that's so brutal about degenerating your ability to think, because it, it's killing your ability to fix the problems-
- BBBen Bergeron
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... not just giving you problems as well.
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah. I think that, so that is, I mean, so the cognitive thinking, the thinking brain, the problem-solving, that is what, (laughs) I don't wanna diminish that at all, 'cause that's what gave us the light bulb. It's why we're able to talk across an ocean. It gave us everything that we have as human beings. So, it's the, it is the most powerful thing that we have. I just believe that we've, we've become too reliant on it. And we're not, and because of that, we can rationalize everything away for logical reasons, "I can't quit my job because XYZ and A, B, and C. It makes no sense to quit my job." Meanwhile, we live unfulfilled lives because we're not willing to take the step forward and do something that your gut is screaming at you, going, "Let's go be happy. Let's find joy. Let's go for a walk in nature. I know you have those 19 emails you need to respond to," but this is, you know, it's, you know, I've, I've been reading a lot about, um, marketing recently and it's, it, it's, we run our businesses this way. We run our businesses based off 'cause you can find any data and we run, we, we dive into the data, yet we can't logically explain why advertisements with animals in them do better than an advertisements that don't. And we don't need to respond and we don't need to rationalize, we don't need to figure out everything out logically. Some things are just magic, right? Some things are just built so far into our biology as human beings that we're not gonna be able to figure it out and put it on a spreadsheet. Not everything is ex- you know, able to f- fit into an Excel document. Some things are literally just feel and emotions. And as much as we, you know, it goes back to like the Simon Sinek thing is people don't buy what you do, they, they buy why you do it. And that goes right down to the root of everything. Well, forget about all of this, you know, we, we started this with this risk thing, um, don't try to weigh and measure it, just listen to your gut. And this is right down to, like, people that are trying to figure out, like, "Should I stay with my partner or not?" You know, "I'm not fulfilled in my relationships, should I stay with my..." And you go like, "Well, I should, because, um, that's how I create, uh, you know, some sort of steadiness in my life," whether it's financial or routine, or it's what, what will my friends and family think, or what will my religious group think, or what would the alternative be? Is it being alone and all these things? And, eh, this is the reason people settle and become complacent bec- and they end up living with a non-supportive wi- you know, wife or husband. It is either, in my opinion, it is either you live in an incredibly passionate, supportive, trusting relationship, or you don't have a relationship. There is no middle. It's n- it, it to me, it is binary. And when people go like, "Well, it's okay because, you know, if I, if I move out, it's gonna be really tough to, um, support myself and my kids, and I won't see my kids as much, and we'll stay together for the kids." And this is why people live, you know, are afraid to take the leap to leave their job, to leave their sp- I'm not, (laughs) and I'm not on, I'm not here, you know, promoting like, "People, go quit your jobs, (laughs) go to get divorced." What I'm saying is don't settle. Don't live lives of complacency, because there is so much out there for us. We are all, we all have the right to live incredibly fulfilled, incredibly passionate, incredibly joyful lives where you are psyched it's Monday morning, where you are psyched that you're in quarantine with your family, where you are psyched that you get to do what you do every single day. And if something doesn't line up that way, don't...... put it off. This is your life, no one is going to come and change it for you. I think that we all kind of wait for, because it's what we grew up with our entire lives, mom and dad will do this, then teachers will do this, then society tells us to do this, and then it's all pre-programmed for us. And by the time we have control over our lives as functioning adults in society, we're programmed, we're programmed to follow the script. And we go, "Well, the script is just going to change eventually," and then the next thing that people look forward to is retirement. And by the time you're in retirement, you think that that's where you're going to kick it, that's where you're going to be in the hammock with the, the, the, the drink with the umbrella in it, and be able to have fun. And by that time, you've given up your passions, you've given up your hobbies, you haven't lived a life that you want to, and you hope that you're going to finally get there and it's not there for you. Don't wait. Like, take the risks to make it happen today.
- CWChris Williamson
No one's coming to do it for you. At all.
- BBBen Bergeron
Absolutely not.
- 13:10 – 18:19
Intention Vs Intuition
- CWChris Williamson
You rely a lot on being procedural with your efforts. You've got this awareness, intention, action framework that you follow, and a lot of people that are listening are going to be intentional actors as well, personal development, self-development, thinking about their work throughout the day. How do you balance being intentional with trying to have that intuitive sense come in as well? Do you feel a tension at all there?
- BBBen Bergeron
No. I think it's all, it, it's one and the same, and it's self-awareness. So, um, everything, to me, starts with awareness, whether you're trying to make changes in your life, or you're trying to figure out your strengths and weaknesses, you're trying to figure out what you, um, how to become happy. It literally all s-... So let's take that one, let's, "We're trying to become happy," 'cause I think that truly is the shared purpose across humanity. We can call it what we want, ch- interchange that word "happy" for enlightened, call it finding God, call it pure consciousness, call it whatever you want to. That's what we all have as a shared purpose. Call it evolution, right? The evolution of our, of ourselves, mind, body, and spirit. That's what we all have as a shared common purpose. Now, everyone has their own unique purpose as well, which is their talents, and it changes based off of opportunities and where you are in your life, but that shared purpose of happiness. That's, that level of awareness, just of that, like, knowing that that's what we should all be chasing, that's what we all are looking for. Now, if that's the case, what are the things that make me happy? And it's a simple exercise, is like, get out a piece of paper, and I do it on my notes on my phone, I do this every so often, is make a running list that you can cross off and add to of the things that make you happy. And what you'll find is, and I'm not talking, like, in the moment, I'm not talking about, like, getting high, I'm not talking, like, um, you know, watching funny movies, although that might make the list. But what you'll find is things that make you happy might not make you happy in the moments, th- but they do eventually. And my list involves things like you would expect, um, you know, I like exercising, it makes me feel good, I like being in nature, I like, um, I, but I also like building things, I like working with teams, I like leading people, I like being creative, I like thinking about the future, I like, um, breaking things down into frameworks, I like doing yard work. Like, and you create these lists, and then what you do is you become what you were, were saying before, then you create intentionality around creating those moments. N- no one's coming to do those things for you. If you find fulfillment and joy and happiness being, going for nature walks, then schedule those in. And schedule it in the way you would schedule in a dentist appointment where, when it comes, you don't push it off for something else. It's the thing that's... So now we have the awareness of truly aware of what's going to make me happy, the intentionality of this is going to happen, if I don't do this it's not going to, and then the, the action. Like, if you, we can talk about it all we want, and talking about it does make me feel good, just like everyone talking about it, but that's the trap. Because you talking about your goals actually elicits the same dopamine as actually, uh, doing your goals. So it's a, it's a trick, and you have to recognize that it's the actual doing that moves us forward. It is truly not until we take the steps that we go anywhere. So that's why the, that three-step process of awareness, intentionality, and action is kind of that's, you know, the, the three pillars that I think move people towards that, you know, you fill in the blank. Finding God, (laughs) pure consciousness, um, enlightenment, or just joy, like joy in their lives. And I, I, if we don't operate in that circular fashion of constant flywheel of awareness, intention, action, awareness, because when you take action, you get greater levels of awareness. Did this truly help me, move me towards my goals or not? And then you move and you iterate. It's the lean startup model. It's the build, measure, learn, right? Let's take action, let's just build it, we don't have to wait for perfect, let's jump, grow wings on the way down, learn, iterate, and make adjustments along the way. And if you keep on that flywheel, eventually you'll get to, and it's not gonna happen immediately, but eventually, you get closer and closer to that end state, and you enjoy the process along the way because you're making the adjustments with intentionality, not just getting pushed by anybody else or society.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know what the next book plan is, but I think that that should be one of the ones. Before you hang up the writing pen, I think that that-
- BBBen Bergeron
Ha.
- CWChris Williamson
... that framework is, is worthy of a book.
- BBBen Bergeron
Noted. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Good. Uh, talking
- 18:19 – 29:43
Dave Castro’s CrossFit Exit
- CWChris Williamson
about big risks, news recently when Dave Castro was let go by CrossFit HQ, although he might not be technically a leader, he's definitely a big figurehead in the sport in a lot of people's eyes. What were your thoughts on that?
- BBBen Bergeron
Uh, I... So the first one was surprise. I actually, um, I was coaching the 5:30 AM class at the gym, and I came in and started coaching. And, um, the members ac- my members actually told me, um, 'cause I hadn't checked social or anything like that. So my first reaction was surprise, and I, I, I remember it. Um, and I was surprised mostly because I thought if it was gonna happen, it would've happened, right? As new leadership comes in, um, the easiest thing to do is to rip off Band-Aids. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Clean house all at once. Yeah.
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah. Just clean house. And they did that, right? They, they, they made a lot of shifts and a lot of changes. Um, but Dave was there. So that was my initial reaction. But then with a little bit of hindsight and a little bit more perspective and a little thought, um, the, the timing of the change actually does make sense. So if we remember back when Rosa took over for Glassman, that was, um, (exhales sharply) it was late spring or early summer, somewhere in there, and the games were looming, right? The games were around the corner, and it was in the midst of a pandemic. So this is where they had to scrape together a completely new format where they did an online qualifier, and then they invited five guys and five girls to Aromas, California. So to do that with complete new leadership on the game side would've been, um, probably too risky. And I think it was the smart move for Eric to Rosa not to make that move. So then it puts us into that next season, and I think that, you know, from... there's a little bit of stability now. So it, it actually makes sense from a timing perspective, in my, in my view. Um, it was not... the, the ship has kind of like settled a little bit, so a little bit of rocking can be withstood. And the timing does seem to make sense now. So while it was initial shock, because I thought it would've happened, it... that dissipated fairly quickly, um, because... Here's my personal opinion on it. I think Dave did a really good job running the games. I think from an organizational standpoint and from a programming standpoint, the games are a phenomenal test and a terrific showcase. They would not... I don't think they would be what they are without Dave Castro. Um, but I can see why Eric might think that a change is necessary to get the sport to where he wants it to go. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Why is that?
- BBBen Bergeron
Um, Dave is polarizing. I mean, um, Dave wore shirts that said "unapologetic". That was his tagline. It's like, so unapologetic means don't take ownership, in my mind. That's polarizing. Now, um, Dave would swear on TV. So to get to the next level, right, to get to the, um, um, the next place, I think it, it could m- I'm not saying it, um, I'm not... I don't have enough inner workings knowledge of the, of how it, it shakes up, but I can understand the reasons for it. Um, you know, strangely enough, you know, I've, I've, I've known Dave for a fairly long time, and I think that the last two games, the one in Aromas with five people, five guys, five girls, and the last one, um, Dave did as good a job as he's ever done from a athlete relations standpoint. So I actually didn't see this coming, because again, I... if it was gonna happen, I thought it was going to happen. And Dave did a really good job of, of being a better leader. And I saw the growth-
- CWChris Williamson
I would say that s-
- BBBen Bergeron
... I saw the growth of him as a leader over the last two years. So I, I was surprised 'cause I saw it moving in the right direction.
- CWChris Williamson
I've definitely seen Dave be more cantankerous in the past than he has done recently. Yeah, it's, um, it's so interesting. There's a lot been conversations in our gym about this, and I think the polarizing nature of Dave has trickled down to people as well. There seems to be sort of broadly two camps of people, people that can't believe that he's gone and it's an absolute travesty, and people... uh, it was overdue. Dave, you know, doesn't fit the new vision that we have for CrossFit. Now, one of the things that's interesting is, it depends on what Eric's, uh, vision, I think, for the sport is long term, whether or not you want to be on ESPN, whether or not you want to be able to commercialize more, whether or not you want to have that increasingly professional sort of stance, but there is still a huge, huge group of people in CrossFit that like the anti-marketing movement, the underground fitness mentality. And I think that, you know, uh, when Greg went, that was, that was a, uh, a little bit of a peer into a culture that maybe hadn't caught up with the modern era quite so much. And you see, you know, some of the media team went as well. They were some of the more outspoken guys as well. Okay, then Dave gone. And Castro kind of was a little bit like, "Well, what the fuck's that guy doing there? Like how's he, (laughs) how's he still there?" But then you think, "Well, he's a programming genius." Some of the workout... Think about, uh, was it 20.1, the wall? Was that wall walks?
- BBBen Bergeron
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
That workout is one of the smartest workouts. Like, he destroyed top level athletes with a wall.... but absolutely destroyed them. And, uh, I think that his programming is beautiful. He was the third ever podcast that I did on this show three, four years ago, uh, the, uh, 18.0 announcement. And, um, he's a polarizing figure, but he gave the sport character. There's an element of that edge to him. And I think that you're probably right. It's a case of where does CrossFit... Where does Eric want CrossFit to be, long term?
- BBBen Bergeron
Y- so I can, I can give, um, my two cents into that because I've had conversations with Eric and he's told me that. Now, this might be, this might have changed because I had these conversations when Eric first came in. So I had a, a couple conversations with him in his first weeks on the job. Um, and his view... So, here's... Glassman was not a fan of the CrossFit Games. He actually thought it clouded the vision of what CrossFit was supposed to be. Eric is a huge fan of the CrossFit Games. Like, a fanboy. Like, he loves it. He competes in it himself. He's ver- he loves it. Eric... Whereas Greg saw it as a sideshow and, at best, and more realistically probably a, a massive distraction, Eric sees it as a avenue for, um, a huge part of the growth of CrossFit as a whole. These athletes represent the pinnacle of what we can all aspire to be. And he's looking to have a viewership of 100 million people. That's a massive number.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know what it is currently?
- BBBen Bergeron
So, uh, (laughs) I would guess it's in the neighborhood of single-digit millions. So, but even if it's 10 million, that's a 10X growth. That puts it on par with, like... So I think the Super Bowl gets, like, 300 million or something like that. So that puts it on par with, like, "normal" NFL playoff type things. It puts it above UFC. Like, it's a huge, huge number. And he's, he's used UFC as a parallel for the sport. So, in order for that to happen, and then you start to realize what his responsibilities are. Whereas Glassman's responsibilities were to the legacy of CrossFit-
- CWChris Williamson
The methodology.
- BBBen Bergeron
... the methodology, that's what his responsibilities were, and to forge elite fitness and to get people off the carbs and off the couch. That's basically what he was... his missions. And then he took that to, like, this revolutionary and, um, "Let's go fight big soda and those type of things, and let's try to change the world." Eric's... So Eric didn't buy CrossFit. I think that's a misnomer. Um, Eric headed up a group that he got a bunch of people to invest in CrossFit. So he's responsible for their investments, like anybody would. Once you get backed by private equity, you have to... you're responsible for it. So he has to grow this thing. And I think that that probably is at the heart of the Dave thing as much as anything. Um, Dave might have been part of the old gua- I don't know this, now I'm speculating.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- BBBen Bergeron
But Dave might have been part of the old guard, and like, "This is the way we're gonna do it." Um, or the polarizing aspect of it didn't allow for enough, um, upside swing of growth potential.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- BBBen Bergeron
So, they might need to get somebody that is willing to completely sit in the background. Again, speculation. Completely not have... And let a, um, somebody else be the face of this thing.
- CWChris Williamson
When I don't-
- BBBen Bergeron
Whether it's the- whether it's the a- whether it's the athlete- You know, Roger Goodell is not the face of the NFL. You know, and even Dana White is stepping back as the face of UFC and letting the athletes be them.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BBBen Bergeron
Or you have a true personality come in and be the face of it, you know? Like a Rory McKernan or a Pat Sherwood or something like that, somebody that, you know, um... Again, this is me speculating in my opinions.
- CWChris Williamson
I'd have said that Dave could have filled that Dana role quite nicely. I think he's got a little bit of edge. He's got the reputability from having been there from the very, very beginning. You see somebody like Dana that is a, uh, very... He's the fight maker, right? Or that's one of his main roles. And he's a common thread that ties together very, very early days with current days. And he's been there through the Reebok buyout, then Venom buyout, and fighters coming and going, and acquisitions, and stuff like that. And it is nice, I think, to have that. You know, it's Eric's decision or whatever, and it'll be interesting to see what happens. As someone who doesn't have their money, um, based on the, uh, what Dave decides to say on a microphone, or the T-shirts that he wears, or the hairdo that he turns up with, uh, I would have-
- BBBen Bergeron
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... much preferred to see, uh, Dave Castro continue to, uh, be the guy that programs the games, and is there announcing and doing all of that stuff. Uh, however, from a business perspective, I can see why that wouldn't work. And it'll be interesting to see whether or not going business first leads to a better experience down the road, or whether, um, sticking to the old school core principles would have been a, a more effective strategy. But I guess-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... time will tell with
- 29:43 – 48:46
How to Become an Effective Leader
- CWChris Williamson
stuff like that.
- BBBen Bergeron
Time will tell.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, you said recently, talking about leadership and stuff like that, you said that you weren't a born leader. How so?
- BBBen Bergeron
Ooh. Um, so I, I... Actually, when I was younger, I would take personality tests. Um, it would come up that I was a phenomenal follower. Give me directions, tell me what to do, and I go off marching and do it, and, um, do a pretty good job at it. That's...... um, transformed, um, as, as I've gotten older. So, that's the first piece. The second piece is, I'm extremely introverted, still am. I'd much rather be a, um, a wallflower at a party than, um, the center of attention and even talking to people at all. Honestly, I'd rather just listen. Um, you know, it, in terms of like if you define extroverts and introverts if, um, being around other people, um, gives you energy or takes energy away from you, being around other people takes energy away from me. I'd rather be, um, creating stuff on my own. So, it's effort. It's a lot of effort for me to, um, try to have conversations and try to communicate with people and hold people to certain levels of standards and expectations, and share the vision, and create common threads throughout an organization or teams. Um, but I've learned to... Honestly, being a coach has kind of helped transform that a little bit, because when you're a coach, that's the job. The coach job is to be the leader of an individual or a team. So, it's allowed me to, um, gr- you know, grow my wings a little bit, um, as I've gone through this process. But, uh, my natural inclination is, um, probably not leader first. It's something that I've, uh, struggled with. And, and frankly when I s- started putting myself in a leadership position as an entrepreneur, it was something I was, um, pretty poor at. And I think that even n- today, you know, 15 to 20 years into this journey, um, I'm mediocre at. Like, it's something that I'm continuing to try to learn. But as we talked about before, that self-awareness is the big, the big thing we need to start with. And then we create some intention, take actions beyond that. But, you know, if, um, when there is a crisis, I'm not the guy that's like, "Let's go do it. Charge into the fray. Let's go take..." It's like, "Dang." (laughs) "Oh man, this is gonna require a lot." Like, that's, that's my, that's my intui- that's my gut. That's who I am as a person. You know, I, uh, avoid conflict massively. I'd much rather have people like me than kind of like jump into it. And it's a lot of work for me to have tactful conflict resolution. It's a lot of work for me to pick up the phone and have a phone call. It's so much easier for me to sit on the sidelines and just hope it all works out. I've learned that's not the best (laughs) methodology or position.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you just, have you just tumbled into this position then? Because all of these things are reasons why you should absolutely suck at doing-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yes, absolutely. I-
- CWChris Williamson
... your, your job. You shouldn't be the leader of a team, you shouldn't be the leader of a business, you shouldn't have an online platform that, you know, thousands and thousands of people follow and trying to make the best CrossFit or si- like, fitness gym in the world and stuff. Li- how the fuck did you get here?
- BBBen Bergeron
Um, I stumbled into it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah. It, um... I opened up a gym 'cause I was super passionate about fitness as a means to get people to become the best versions of themselves, you know, if we are... That's, it's that same shared purpose we all have. So, here's... I believe that our training methodology, training really hard is as worthy a means to en- to enlightenment as anything that's ever existed. Meaning, people can choose any one of these tools, whether it's meditating, journaling, going to church, AA.
- CWChris Williamson
Arts, dance, music.
- BBBen Bergeron
Like art. Like, all of those things are ways for people to find pure consciousness, to find themselves and find joy, to find awareness about, self-awareness about who they are. I believe that hard training, not, um, Jazzercise, but what we do, because what we do, the greatest adaptation... And yeah, we get ripped and you get lean, and you lower triglycerides, and you increase your longevity and your functionality. The biggest adaptation is between the ears. You like, you, you're, you're a different human being in your brain from having experienced this path. And that's what I believed from day one. That's why I wanted to open up a gym, was because I believed I could help change people from the inside out to lead more purpose-driven lives. And when I opened up a gym, I was... Even before that, I was a personal trainer. And doing it from a personal training standpoint, that's kind of my sweet spot. One-on-one, build a relationship, and we can do that. And then from there, things kind of went really well and I got a little following, and it made sense to open up a gym, so I opened up a gym. And then it becomes this thing where, okay, now this is going well, and we had to hire coaches, and that's where the thing starts. Once you have to lead other employees, the thing changes. And then we created a team that competed at the CrossFit Games. And okay, now you have to lead that team, and we win the CrossFit Games. Oh my gosh, now people want to follow you, so you create an online platform, and that starts to snowball, and then it creates, turns into a revenue stream, and now you have a business underneath you. So yeah, it was, um... I wouldn't say reluctantly 'cause I've enjoyed all the steps, but it was, um, organically.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BBBen Bergeron
It just kind of... I didn't, I didn't seek out a leadership position, and, um, it- it doesn't s- it's not part of who I am a- on, on a, on a molecular level. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like, uh, a career, uh, a series of stumbling down a set of stairs.... and at each step that you've arrived at, it's just been another challenge that you've needed to do. And it's like, "Well, I'm the guy. It looks like I'm the guy." I much prefer that sort of a story when it comes to, uh, entrepreneurialism, athleticism, building a team, creating an organization, or a movement, or a culture, or a podcast, or whatever it is. I much prefer that sort of story because I think that, on average, far more people end up in positions like that by following their passion, not really being able to predict the future that much, maybe just kind of knowing one or two steps in front of them. And then before they know it, they look back after five or 10 years and go, "Holy shit, look at all of this stuff that we've built." And it creates anxiety, this sort of ambient anxiety, amongst people that don't have a plan when they don't have a plan. And they think, "Oh, well, look, the, the, the, what Ben got to the stage with the online, and the gym, and the team, and the CrossFit games, and the stuff, he must have laid it all out." And you go, "You can get through this by just doing your best as challenges arise and taking opportunities as they arise." And then in retrospect, anybody can piece together some bullshit story about how, "I knew it was going to be this, and I, the vision with, originally started off with the personal training, and I knew at that moment I was going to take a team to the CrossFit..." No. Bullshit. Right? The vast, vast, vast majority of people stumble into their success, like falling down a set of stairs.
- BBBen Bergeron
There's a dichotomy with that though because on a personal level, yes and sort of, and then once you have a team, no. So here's what I mean by that is, from a personal level, I think it really helps to have a vision of what it is you are chasing, but it doesn't need the s- the... You don't have to have the steps built out, you can just have the North Star, right? And the North Star, there's a reason it's the North Star, because you can purposely go off track. When a plane leaves New York City headed for San Francisco, it's off track 99% of the time. It could be tens and dozens and dozens of miles off track. But as you get closer and closer, it gets more narrow and narrow and narrower and certainly, when you go to landing time, you want to be right on the button. And that's much like starting a business. When I started a business, I didn't know what I was trying to create. I couldn't have told you, "We're gonna have comp train and we're gonna have, um, you know, six different gyms around." But I knew what I wanted. This gets back to what we originally started the conversation with. I knew what I wanted from a feel. I knew what the feeling I wanted was. And that is, when we get done running a class at our gym, I don't want people to leave. That was the feeling. And if we create this place where people feel like once they leave, they're gonna have this FOMO, this fear of missing out, this is truly the best hour of their day and they don't want it to end, so when the workout ends, they're hanging out, then we've created a transformational experience for them. Now, transformational is the opposite of transactional. Transactional is, um, I pay you, you pay me, I provide a service, and then you, we, (claps hands) we, we, we, we shake hands, and it's over. Most businesses are transactional. You hire someone to paint your house, they paint your house, you pay them, and it's gone. What I wanted to do was not be a transactional coach. And a transactional coach, if we're coaching basketball, they teach you how to do, um, a triangle offense, run a full-court press, how to, um, square up your shoulders when you shoot a basketball, and how to defend a pick and roll. And when you're done playing basketball, they haven't done much for you. Whereas a transactional coach makes you a better person. They teach you discipline. They teach you how to work through adversities. They teach you how to be more humble and a better teammate. And what I wanted to do was to create a business that was not transactional but transformative, that changed people so when they were no longer a part of our business, whether that was once they went home and they spent the other 23 hours of their day, they were different people, or after they moved out of the state and they were no longer able to come to our gym, they were different people for having experienced our services. I knew from day one that I wanted that. And the ability to, as then a leader, to share that vision is a necessity. You have to be able to share that with your team. If you don't have that aspect of what we're trying to create, you're at a loss, because your default, you're going to default to making sure that the things on the scoreboard are happening, 'cause the only thing you can do is say that, "The measureables are in place." And that's what everyone's running their businesses now, because there's more data than there's ever been, so what people are doing is they're going, "Okay, did we make X number of calls? Did that lead to X number of trans- uh, uh, conversions? Did those conversions lead to this many, um, sale, uh, onboarding sessions? Did those onboarding sessions lead to this much of a churn rate? Did that lead to this much of an average client lifetime value? Okay, let's spin that back up to what is our customer acquisition cost. Average lifetime value versus customer acquisition cost, (claps hands) here we go, we're in the positive, let's pour more fuel on the fire." And they think that's how to run a business. When it is, except that's not the totality of it. It has to start with me with what is the vision for the feel what we're trying to create. Because as we said in the beginning, people do things based off of feel, not off of logic. We have, we are still emotional beings. The example of that is the parable of the elephant and the rider...The elephant represents the amygdala brain, the feelings and the emotions, whereas the rider is the calculator. The rider is the human being on top that actually knows how to get from point A to point B in the most efficient way to do that. The rider is in control for part of the time, except for once the, the amygdala kicks in, which it happens in every single buying purchase, that's the reason people are staying with your business or leaving it. It's not because of your price. It's not because of the- it's because of this gut feeling that they have. And as a leaders, we have to understand that that gut feeling thing is the most important thing that we have. And that's why our driving mantra for our team is to build a tribe, build a tribe by making dope shit that creates a feeling. That's what we're trying to do. Now, what that, what that... And from there is, we find the opportunities that come and present themselves to us, and we figure out if this is in line with what we're trying to do. Is this dope? Is this gonna help us build a tribe? Is this gonna create a feeling? If it's not going to do those things, it's not gonna create a feeling, it's, it's transactional. Push it to the side. That's things like making better bells and whistles and all this other stuff. It's the things that are really gonna tug at heartstrings. That, to me, is the way you lead. You lead from the front, from the beginning, is create an understanding of what is it that we're trying to create, not from a 5,000 users, 10% churn, 23% profitability and 10% growth. Like cool, cool, but let's tug at the real things that move the needle, which is the emotion.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you familiar with Goodhart's Law? Do you know what that is?
- BBBen Bergeron
I'm not.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- BBBen Bergeron
I'm interested.
- CWChris Williamson
So, that is exactly what you're describing. Goodhart's Law is an adage often stated as, "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." It's named after a British economist, Charles Goodhart, who advanced the idea in 1975. So, an example of that might be, um, a target I want to achieve is... Uh, a measure I want to achieve, uh, to base a target on is the number of email subscribers that I get. So, I'm going to maximize the number of email subscribers. The way I'm going to do that is I'm going to say, "Put your email in here and I will send you a million pounds." Thousands of people submit their email address, but you don't give them a million pounds. You have achieved the target that you wanted-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... but what you've actually, what you genuinely meant was, "I want people to willingly give me their email address so that they are glad to receive emails from me on a weekly basis." That was the feel that you wanted. When you're relying on Goodhart's Law, when you're looking at a measure becoming a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
- BBBen Bergeron
For sure. So, like a great example of that is your churn rate, right? How many members are leaving every month versus how many did you start with at the beginning of the month? If you have 1,000 members, 100 leave during the month, your churn rate is 10%. Well, obviously let's lower the churn rate. Well, if that becomes... You can actually hack it, right? If you cut your price down to 10%, you're, more people are gonna stay because there's just, it's... But to your point, that wasn't the intention. The intention of churn is to get people to want to stay.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BBBen Bergeron
It's what, it's what, it's what Einstein said, is that not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured. And that's why we can't get caught up in this data-driven world that we have. And da- I'm not saying data is not important. Use every bit of it that you can. Just don't put blinders on because it's not the thing that, only thing that matters. There are things that happen that we cannot rationalize.
- CWChris Williamson
This is one of the problems with dashboards for online businesses, for podcasts, for YouTube channels, stuff like that. Again, with YouTube, you could clickbait your way to maximizing-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... views, retention, um, but really, what are you trying to achieve? Do you want to sell your soul to get to 500,000 subs? Well, probably not. But you're going to arrive at the subscriber number that you said was the target and realize that actually, it wasn't the outcome that your intention meant. So yeah, I think this, this applies to a lot of things, right? You know, you could get yourself to, "I want to look good in the mirror." Okay, I'm gonna run at 500 calories for the next six months and dial myself down to some ridiculous body fat level. Again, like, yes, I've achieved the thing that I wanted, but what did I really mean? I probably meant I want to look and feel great and confident in my body. I want to feel powerful and mobile and fit and strong and attractive and all that stuff. Okay, is the solution that I've got oversimplified? And if it's oversimplified, I haven't actually got the outcome that I meant.
- BBBen Bergeron
Right. Yeah, this is... It kind of speaks to brand building, right? So, in business, um, brand building is a really popular thing right now and people, um, are chasing white rabbits, and they think that brand building is brand awareness. And brand awareness is not the key measure. It's brand relevance and resonance. It's like, what does it mean and how relevant are you in that person's life? And when you start to pull back that way a little bit, it's not just about how many people can become aware, you know, the top of the funnel awareness, how many, how can we make that bigger? It becomes you g- you start to understand, which to your point is like, let's put more banner ads, let's do more digital, let's put more... You all start to recognize that that's not the means to the end. What we're actually trying to do is get people to feel better about our brand. And that happens through the sum of everything that we do. Every single thing that you do for your podcast, everything, it matters. Even the intangibles, the way that you're... The things that you can't measure, right? Which is the tonality of which you speak.... the beautiful accent that you have.
- 48:46 – 54:59
Unique Advantages of Introverts
- BBBen Bergeron
- CWChris Williamson
Are there any unique advantages that you think you have as an introvert and as someone who was a, uh, not an unwilling leader, but an unlikely leader, maybe. Um, are there any advantages that you think that you have from that position? There might be introverts that are listening who have to lead a team or be part of a team or take over decision-making at some points. Is there a way that you look at that and see it as an advantage at all?
- BBBen Bergeron
Um, yeah. I think that maybe I, I don't have to backtrack on my words as much as, like, some of my outspoken friends do. (laughs) 'Cause they'll just, like, without any filter system whatsoever, it just comes out, right? So that may be one. And I think it's- I'm- I try to be very intentional, um, but this isn't an introvert thing, this is something I've learned along the way, is early days in my, uh, in being a leader in the business, they used to call it, my team used to call them Ben Bombs, right? Where they'd be chugging away, doing their thing, working hard, and I would come in with this new idea, this new great thing and I'd be, like, so excited and pumped up to talk to them about it and be like, "Guys, this is, listen to this." We, and like, and not realizing the ramifications that me kind of leaving that grenade there would have. Because as a leader of the business, when I say, "Hey guys, this is so exciting," they go, "Okay, this is where we're going." And as a person that has lots of those thoughts, I've realized I've had to curtail that a bit. So this is kind of the opposite of, like, the intro. But, um, being an introvert, to me, I'm in my head quite a bit, and I create the space purposefully because it gives me energy. And when I create the space, I have lots of thoughts on how to improve the business, on how to, um, move the needle, on how people are reacting to the business, of what I feel like the gut thing is that's going to drive people forward. Um, that kind of like, as an introvert growing up and not being the center of attention, I would sit on the fringe of the circles and look and listen.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, that's-
- BBBen Bergeron
And-
- CWChris Williamson
... that's exactly what I had in my head. Like precisely.
- BBBen Bergeron
And look and listen to the way that words and body language and topics would resonate with people in the group. And, um, I think it gave me a little bit of insight into a sensitivity to, um, you know, sort of like a, uh, you know, an EQ type thing, emotional, uh, uh, intelligence sort of thing. Um, I think also maybe even more so than the, um, lack of willingness to be loud in front of people was my- the way I went through school and being dyslexic. And being dyslexic, I had to find workarounds. There were like, like, solutions weren't necessarily, school and learning wasn't easy for me. And because of that, when I would read, I had to read so slowly to comprehend. I couldn't do what everyone else did, which is just, you know, read a chapter a night. Like, it wasn't even a possibility. So I had to figure out how to read a lot slower for comprehension, and now that I'm reading things that I'm passionate about, I think that there's a comprehension. I, I under- that to me is the goal of reading, is to comprehend, and then be able to either apply or teach others. There's nothing else. There's no other reason for it. So every time that I'm reading something, and I, I, I read a lot now, I'm constantly trying to figure out, like, "Do I own this? Could I talk to somebody else about this or could I own this in the business?" As opposed to, I've found books that I don't feel like that with and I realize that I find that the goal is to finish the book. And there's a dopamine thing of, like, finishing a book. Like, I accomplished things. I get things done. And that can't be the goal. So I think that that learning aspect of you, the only reason to do this and (laughs) probably because you're like, I never finished a book when I was in high school, so that wasn't even a goal anyways. It was just like, you gotta get some comprehension out of this and try to... Um, I think that's kind of, uh, given me a little bit more, um, you know, I think that that dyslexic has given me an advantage, um, whereas in school, man, it was really, really challenging. You know, it, it's, uh, it's such a big thing in, when you're at school, at least the way that I went, is like you're, you're one of three things. Like, you're either good-looking and popular, you're an athlete and a jock and a stud, or you're smart, and you get your self-worth out of that thing. And I wasn't super popular, uh, I wasn't the star athlete, and I wasn't... And man, I was the opposite of what smart was, the way smart was defined in academia, which is, "Hey, Ben, could you read the next page to the class out loud?" And holy crap, that's my, my, my nightmare, because stu- the words would just go fuzzy, blank, stumbling on words. Um, and I would label myself as, um, not smart.But what I realized as I started to get into business was I had a huge advantage. My dad was, um, also challenged, but incredibly good leader in business, um, CEO of multiple different companies, um, and then helped take companies public. Um, and I learned a lot watching him navigate the workplace, both from a worthy ethic standpoint and how much common sense business is. And I think business is more common sense than it is academic.
- 54:59 – 1:01:21
Turning the Inner Critic into a Coach
- CWChris Williamson
If you had such a critical inner voice when you were a kid, how have you got yourself to the stage now where you're talking about turning that critic into a coach? Like, what have you done to move your self-talk from what sounds like a pretty shitty place-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to- to a much more positive place?
- BBBen Bergeron
Um, so it's, um, it's not binary. It's, uh, meaning that it's not like I was terrible then and I'm great now.
- CWChris Williamson
Fixed it now. Yeah.
- BBBen Bergeron
Right. So certainly had negative self-talk in terms of academics and other things, um, then, and I certainly don't have it all figured out right now. (laughs) Um, I still have the inner voice and continue to work on it. Um, but the- the words that you used there is exactly the way that I try to reframe it, is coach versus critic. And the critic sits on the sidelines, doesn't get their hands dirty, and just points out all the faults. I think we all have... I shouldn't say all. A lot of us have that built into us for any number one of different reasons, right? Parents, teachers, coaches, upbringing, whatever it might have been. And I certainly do as well. And I think that's the goal for most of us is, first and foremost, become aware of the voice. 50% of people don't even believe that there's a voice in their head. (laughs) Like, that's a- that's staggering to me because, as an introvert, that's all I listen to.
- CWChris Williamson
That shit blows my mind. Yeah, exactly. My-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
The voices in my se- my head sing fucking barbershop together.
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah. (laughs) Exactly. So the first thing is becoming aware of the voice, and then the next one is just an understanding that you don't need to try to control it. The awareness on, just by itself, just the awareness of that voice is massive. And that awareness, the more you become aware of it, when you just from the... 'Cause if you try to change it, you just get frustrated, and you get depressed, and you beat yourself up, and the critic comes on top of the critic, where you go, like, um, "They don't like what I'm saying right now." And then, you become aware of that, and you go, "Oh my God, look at you, you're complaining." You go, "Oh my God, why-"
- CWChris Williamson
I'm the sort of person that says they don't like what I'm saying right now.
- BBBen Bergeron
You spin on-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BBBen Bergeron
You spin on that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- BBBen Bergeron
And this is where you see people melt down in public speaking, right? They're giving a talk, and all of a sudden, they fumble on their words, and they go, "Oh my God, he fumbled on your words." You go, "Oh my God, you're fumbling on your words." Oh my... And it's sp- it... So-
- CWChris Williamson
Shame layered on guilt-
- BBBen Bergeron
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... layered on shame, layered on guilt.
- BBBen Bergeron
So that's actually, to me, that is the path. Awareness, and then the next step is awareness without judgment. And when you create awareness without judgment, all of a sudden, now you start to realize the root causes. You fi- you figure out the triggers that set those things off. And now what you do is the next time that happens, you start to realize how you're pre-programmed. We are all are running a script that is pre-programmed into us from our childhood, and it is guiding our every action, decision, and behavior unnecessarily. It's a faulty script that doesn't actually exist. But your reality is different than my reality based off the script that we've experienced and the programming. Meaning you, um, are walking down the street, and you hear a dog bark. And you grew up with a dog, a golden retriever that was super fuzzy and used to play with it in the park, and- and to you, dog- a dog barking is a sign of affection. That's what your dog used to do before when he'd hear you come home and fumble with the keys. They used to bark at you going, "I know when I open this door, my lovable four-legged friend is gonna give me so much of this feelings of oxytocin," all this stuff. So dog barking to you is warm and fuzzies. I was bit by a dog as a kid, so I hear dog barking and the opposite happens, anxiety, stress. The reality is a dog barking, neither one of those two belief systems are actual reality, but we believe certain realities only because of our past. When you start to sit quietly and have awareness of your thoughts, not judging, you start to recognize these triggers, and you start to question them. You go, "Huh, that's just a..." So you hear a dog bark. "I feel a gut thing in my stomach start to turn and flip upside down." Instead of judging it, I just go, "That's weird. Why did that happen? Ah, the dog barked, that happened. The dog's not gonna attack me, he's behind a closed door. Like, why the heck did that..." And all of a sudden, you start to melt these paradigms, and you start to be able to navigate life without these triggers sending you into these fear loops, anxiety loops, or otherwise. Now let's bring that to another example. Your wife, after dinner, asks if you can do the dishes. You grew up with a very, very, very controlling mother, and when you- wife asks you to do that, it sets off a trigger that you go, "Freaking wife trying to control me, telling me to do the dishes." Like, like, what? No. She just asked you to do the dishes, but you have this program built into you that when somebody asks, it's a trigger.... and said, when wife asks you do the dishes and you feel that thing, without- you should go, "Whoa, awareness. Whoa, that was weird. I felt resentment towards my wife right when she said that. What's the reality of the situation right now? She's just asking if I could do the dishes. She's not trying to control me. That is actually built into me from my upbringing, it's the programming that I have, it's the software I'm running on. I have the opportunity to rewrite that software." This is that level of awareness that we can all navigate life through. We don't need to be the pre-programmed past, we have control over the way we navigate the future if we bring a level of awareness and non-judgment to that present moment.
- 1:01:21 – 1:21:46
Earning Respect as a Leader
- BBBen Bergeron
- CWChris Williamson
Going back to the team thing, how do you get team members to respect the leader? 'Cause one thing that I've realized throughout running businesses is that the leader often needs to show degrees of outstanding competence in order to get respect from the team. So we run nightclubs and we have junior managers, normal managers, senior managers, city managers, right? All of the guys that are effective at being any of the senior levels, they have to be performing well week in, week out, and their performance is so transparent because everyone can see how many entries they've got into all of our different events. The, the guys that had the most respect weren't the ones that were the sternest leaders, they weren't the ones that were even necessarily the best team leaders, they got buy-in from the people below them because they knew that they had talent and competence. But, uh, when you get to more complicated organizations, more specialized, uh, decision-making, uh, situations like CEO of a big online business or coaching a team, it's not your job to be fitter than your athletes, it's your job to be the guy that knows exactly what to tell them. So how do teams, uh, how do you get team members to respect the leader and then talk about this sort of competence dynamic that plays into that?
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah, absolutely. So competence is absolutely one of the pieces, but it's not the only piece. And the reason competence helps a leader lead is because when someone shows competence, the people that they're leading will trust that person more. Because if you show that you're making the right decisions and then it- things turn out well, or you give some career advice, people take it and then they run with it, that just brings some level of trust. But trust is a three-faceted piece, competence being one of them. It's not the first one. The first thing you have to show, it's the three Cs of trust. The first one is showing that you care 'cause even the competent leader will not get everything they can out of them, like the Bobby Knights, the guy that, like, yells and screams at his players, you know, but doesn't show any sort of level of care for them whatsoever, but he's very competent, he knows the X's and O's of the sport as well as anybody else, will not get every ounce of potential out of his athletes or employees or family or whatever it might be. The first thing we have to show is that we care about people on an individual basis. And this is why, you know, the saying is, it takes 40 hours just to get ja- past acquaintance level. It takes time. It takes a lot of time to actually get to the level where somebody goes like, "I can trust that person because they care about me." And this is built into our evolutionary biology. If you were, um, a re- you know, you were a tribe of 150 that lived around a certain huge cave and you had campfires, you had certain hunters, you had certain warriors, you had certain people that cooked the food and certain people that tanned the hides, and certain people that took care of the kids, you needed to know that the person next to you cared about you. If they didn't care about you, no matter how good of a warrior they were, no matter how good- how competent they were in their skill set, it didn't create the total package 'cause you go like, "Listen, if that person's really good, when they talk to me about warrior stuff, I'll listen, but I'm not going to turn my back on that person." It's not total trust 'cause they might have bigger, higher goals and they might knock me off. So it has to start with care. Then the next one is exactly what you said, competence. You have to know your stuff. You have to be good at what you do. And then the next one is consistency. You have to show up every day. You have to be thr- you have to have a through line, just as what you were saying, it was kind of nice having Dana White there, that consistency level. That just in itself brings some trust to the organization because you know that some of the past is going to be present in the future, is probably going to be fairly stable because of what they've shown you. It's been consistent. If there was a different leader in place every single year of the UFC, your trust in the UFC would not be what it is today. So that three-headed monster of care, consistency, and trust is how you start leading groups. Then when you're introduced to the groups, that's kind of like the macro, overarching thing, then there's a step-by-step process to when you are inserted as the leader. And some people come in and flip over the poker table and they go, "This is the way we're doing it, my way or the highway," and they totally throw everything and you're like ... That doesn't bring as much trust because people don't know if you care, they don't know if you're competent, and there's no consistency. So what do you do instead? When you come in, step one is you listen. This is what helps introverts in leadership positions, is you don't come in, don't let your ego take over. Literally come in, even if you are the most senior position, you're the CEO of the business, come in and spend your first two weeks just listening. Listening to people, understanding them, what makes them tick, understanding their roles and responsibilities, understanding everything that you possibly can so that you can step two, learn. Listen and learn.... "If you were in my position, what changes would you make? How would you do your job differently? What are you seeing as inefficiencies? What are you seeing as things that we should be doing going forward?" Step three is help, and help in any which small way. Right? So, an example of this is, um, Ted Lasso. Are you familiar with Ted Lasso?
- CWChris Williamson
No. Who's that?
- BBBen Bergeron
Oh, my gosh. It's a- it's a- it's a show on, um, Apple TV. He's a coach that comes in to, uh, run a English Premier Soccer League. He has no idea what he's doing, but right away, he just comes in and the first- what he does is he listens to people, learns what their- has people write down suggestions. And one of the things that people said is, like, on this professional soccer team is the shower pressure sucks in the locker room. So, the next day, there's better shower pressure. You help. You make changes, no matter how small. Listen, learn, and then help. After you help, then you lead. What too many leaders do is they come in with an ego and go, "I have to establish myself as the leader. I have to tell people what to do. I have to show people what they're doing wrong and the new direction we're going." And because of that, they haven't taken the necessary steps to work through this the way our evolutionary biology does, is it's constantly going, "Friend or foe? Friend or foe? Friend or foe?" 'Cause if it's foe, I need to fight or flight. Only two options. I need to either resist this guy because he might be trying to take my job, hurt me in any s- or m- f- shape or f- way or form, or get the hell out of here, find a new job. Until I feel like he is friend, which is the person that's going to help me at the campfire, support me and care about me, then I can't lead. You can't lead... And by the way, this is- I didn't create this. George Washington's th- is the listen, w- uh, learn, help, then and only then lead. It's kind of like the same thing with, like, mechanics, consistency, then and only then intensity. Same thing. Listen, learn, help, then and only then lead, because if you don't, you're going to have people following you reluctantly, and that's not a leader. That's a positional leader.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. I had Eddie Jones, head coach of England Rugby, on the show a little while ago, uh, and it turned out that he was up in Newcastle, so I went for breakfast with him. I got his email address and unsolicited just asked him to go for breakfast the next day, and we did. And he told me this story about... First off, he told me a story about Sir Alex Ferguson, who was Manchester United's manager for a very long time, maybe 20 years, something like that. Uh, and when he first came into the club, there was a lot of turmoil and he needed to get the players on side with him quickly, so what he did was... O- one of the players tells this story separately about how every game for the entire rest of the season after Alex had joined, Alex had gone up to this player and said to him, "You are the most important player on the pitch. It is all about you today. You are the most important player." And it only turned out toward the end of the season, he started chatting to a couple of the other guys, it turned out that Alex had been saying that to every single one of them.
- BBBen Bergeron
Love that.
- CWChris Williamson
Because he needed all of them to feel like they had that bond, but he needed to expedite it. He didn't have time to wait to actually be able to work through stuff. And he's become one of the most successful soccer coaches of all time. Another story that Eddie told me. So, this guy is in charge of our Rugby World Cup hopes, right? 2023 Rugby World Cup's coming around. And this is the man who has coached... played for Australia, coached Australia, Japan, and England all at separate, uh, times. He was a school supply replacement teacher as well for sport, but also taught everything. So, he's literally from the lowest, 13-year-old boys picking up a rugby ball for the first time, to the best teams on the planet, right? He's done the entire thing. And I was asking him, 'cause he was going to go and watch this game afterward. I said, "So, what are you looking for? You're going to go watch these guys." There's, whatever, 30 people plus some referees, plus some physios. It's like 35 people on the pitch. "What are you looking for?" He said, "Well, first off, I'm getting rid of all the noise. So, I get rid of the players that I'm not looking at, and I look at the players. But at least 50% of what I'm focused on when I'm watching the players at the game isn't their time during the game. It's how are they interacting with the coaches during the warmup? What's their body language like if the score starts to go in their- in their direction or if it's still- if the game starts to go against them? Do they keep their head down or do they keep their head up?" He told me another story about when he took over the Japanese team. And J- Japan wasn't particularly good at rugby. Asian men, uh, typically aren't built for that sort of a sport, especially if you put them up against, what, like Pacific Islanders. Like, a Samoan versus a- a- a Japanese guy, typically, you're gonna get flattened by the Samoan. Um, so he was trying to make them fast and do other bits and pieces. And one of the lessons that he was looking for, um, in- when he observes the players is how much they look at the coaches. He says that he wants players that take the game plan and then they work for themselves. And he'd spoken to... (laughs) Apparently, Japan's good at three things. Um, women's volleyball, uh, women's downhill skiing, and something else, right? Uh, so he went to go and speak to the women's volleyball coach. And I didn't know this 'cause I haven't watched that much volleyball, but apparently, the coaches from volleyball are right on the side of the court, so they're right next to the players. And the coach came in. He didn't take your softly, softly approach. He took a slightly- he took the flip-the-poker-table, uh, over approach. And he watched the game, and the players that kept looking to him during the match, all of them were binned. All of them went. And he said, "I want players that can play for themselves." And now Eddie's taken that forward. So, he's watching this game and maybe there's two or three players on the pitch on a match that he's looking at, and he's looking at, what's their body language like before they begin? How are they interacting with the rest of the staff? How are they warming up? Are they doing it with enthusiasm? Are they looking like they're positive? What's their body language like if they start to win or if they start to lose? And how much are they able to focus on their own game? Or how much are they looking at the coach for the equivalent of audibles and plays? And to hear that from...... one of the most respected sports coaches on the planet was- that was fuck- it was a- a good breakfast.
- BBBen Bergeron
Super cool. Love those stories. It's... You know, one of the sayings is, "You're not a leader until you've created a leader that has created a leader." 'Cause what we're trying to do is empower people. That's real- I mean, otherwise, what you do is you're a micromanager. And to the- to the case in point of what th- those coaches on the athletic fields were looking for is they need people that can go and lead others and le- lead themselves and lead others, and that's super cool. Empowerment is, um, you know, I believe it's, uh, it's one of the biggest traits that anybody can have as a leader, is get people that are smarter in the room than they are, and empower them to make decisions and lead themselves. I- I also really liked the, you know, the- the coach that was not necessarily just looking at the players playing, but the players... 'Cause, you know, their body language, what are they- how are they interacting with each other. You know, I... That's what I look for, uh, when I'm coaching my athletes a ton, is f- I- I... You're giving me words to this, but a- a fif- about 50% is execution, right? It's, um, how efficient are they being with the movements? How are they cycling the barbell? Is their muscle-up transitions smooth? All the rest. But the other 50% is what I'll call vibe, and it is the intangibles, and it is, um, how are they handling themselves when they're walking on the floor, when they're walking off the floor, when they're setting the barbells up, when, um, they're between rounds? Like, there's so much to be gleaned and gained from awareness of that aspect of coaching as well, and I believe it translates really well to an organization and business, because part of what we do, well, 50%, is the actual X's and O's. You know, are we producing the widgets? Are the widgets up to the standards of expectations? But the other 50% is how do people interact as a team, and the whole kind of vibe aspect of this. And in the- th- the recent book that I- I wrote, I t- I speak to this, and I got it from the guys that own Eleven Madison Park, which is a restaurant in New York City. They got voted as the best restaurant in the world. And there's the back of the house and there's the front of the house. The back of the house is where the chefs are, and, um, dishwashers, and all that. Then there's the front of the house where the, um, the servers are, and the concierge, and all of the rest. And the guy that's in charge of the front of the house, that's a- your exper- it's not just about the quality of the food. It's about the wh- experience of the whole thing. I think restaurants are just such amazing businesses to- to dissect, because they kind of have everything. They have product, they have service, they have, um, this mo- w- you're only in there for a short period of time. Y- if no one decides to come to the restaurant that day, they go out of bus- it's like- it's wild to me. It's not like a- the safety of an annuity like a subscription service or something else. So... But the- the guy that owns the place and the guy that's in front of the- s- front of the charge- in charge of the front of the house, he would, um, what I call soft eyes, where he would just go to a corner of the restaurant, sort of close his eyes, but not completely, and just listen. And the way he said it was, "You can just feel when it's a good night. There's a certain excitement in the air." And I think that translates to managing any team. I'm a big believer in becoming really good at having good meetings, 'cause I think that having a good meeting is essentially... That, to me, is the team actually performing. And you wanna- as a leader, it's very important to get your team to actually be good at being good at meetings. And it sounds weird, because what everyone thinks their job is to be good at their job. But if you have a whole bunch of star performers, there's- I mean, there are so many examples of teams with multiple all-stars on them that perfo- way underperform. What you actually need is a good team, and when your team truly comes together is in meetings. And I think that that is a massively underutilized aspect, 'cause I think that- that, um, poor leaders do it in a very transactional way, where they think the goal is for- to get, you know, uh, me to tell everyone here what's happening. And as long as that happens, that meeting was a success, and that's not the case. The case of a meeting is to get people to feel empowered, and to get people to feel connected to the overall vision and direction of the organization. And that is one of the ways that we can do that, is by with the- the soft eyes, the empowering, and just get the feel of, how are we working together as a team?
- CWChris Williamson
That's expertise. That's the role of the leader, right? The- the guy at the top, or the guys at the top, their job is to be a hard-to-replicate complex decision engine. They can't precisely tell you all of the things that they've taken in-
- BBBen Bergeron
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but they aggregate all of the different stuff. So, I'm sure that you do the same, but when I'm running a club night, I don't want to be near the front door. I want to be 30 yards away from the front door...
- BBBen Bergeron
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and I can see where the guys that are scanning tickets aren't leaving gaps for people to move through. I can see where we're getting held up with the door staff at the front. I can see that the smoking area's encroaching and that the barriers have changed. I can see that there's that group of guys over there that aren't gonna get in 'cause they don't have student ID, but if we let them wait and they get to the front, they're gonna be pissed off 'cause they've just waited for 20 minutes, but the queue picker, the guy whose job it is, he hasn't seen them. All of this stuff happens. The same as you in your gym. I- I imagine if you want to get a feel for how the class is going, you don't stand in the middle of the class. You stand right at the very, very far edge, and you just-
- BBBen Bergeron
Exactly right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that soft e- eyes, open gaze. You're just looking across the entire gym, and that's where... That- that's one of the beautiful things. That's why I or anyone would enjoy watching someone in flow at something that they're great at. I would enjoy watching you watching your gym. I would enjoy watching the guy that runs the front of house of that fancy restaurant observing his restaurant, because you're seeing someone aggregate millions of bits of data and then come, just come up with one thing, the one thing that's going to have the highest impact. Okay, where is it that that queue, that group of guys, that smoking area, that cue from the coach, that fact that the person over the far side is the one person that hasn't yet been spoken to by any of the guys that look... Whatever it is, right? That table that we know that hasn't had the wine, whatever, whatever it might be. Like that's fucking awesome to see. Like I nerd out over expertise like that so much. I think it's amazing to see people that have that level of competence.
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah, I love that. That's, uh... It's, it's so... I love what you're saying is like computing like the millions of data points all together, and if you asked somebody to break that down, you can't, you just have to, you just n- know it intuitively because it's been built into you from so many... It's kind of like the, the expert, the, the fire chief, right? The fire chief is in the building. They're all fighting the fires, and without any... He just goes, "Guys, we gotta get outta here."
- CWChris Williamson
Let's get out. Yep.
- BBBen Bergeron
Exactly. There's n- he can't point to anything. It's just this feeling.
- CWChris Williamson
There's loads of stories like that from 9/11 as well. Exactly the same thing.
- BBBen Bergeron
Absolutely. There's, there's so many stories like that, and it's what you were saying, is I can just tell that those guys with the s- those are students. They're not gonna, they're not... and we gotta make sure that we're not... It's, it's a, it's a, it's a built into you, and that's what the level of, that's the confidence piece. That's where you, uh, you, you get to display your level of expertise.
- 1:21:46 – 1:30:40
Impactful Athletes to Work With
- BBBen Bergeron
- CWChris Williamson
Who is one of the athletes that's had the best vibe that you've worked with? Is there someone that you put them in the gym and everybody else just gets in a better mood, everyone's on a, a, a, a good level?
- BBBen Bergeron
Uh, Katrin, definitely. Katrin's like phenomenal. Katrin is, um, uh, you know, but she wasn't always like that. Katrin used to be kind of an emotional, um, when she was y- first starting off in, as a competitor in our sport. Um, but Katrin is awesome. Katrin is, um, a, a fierce competitor, but also makes everyone feel, um, feel good about things.
- CWChris Williamson
I think you've mentioned in the past that her and your wife are kind of similar, apparently like girly and giggly, and they get excited about stuff.
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you're a bit more sort of-
- BBBen Bergeron
Reserved.
- CWChris Williamson
... stiff upper lip, British, sort of standoffish-
- BBBen Bergeron
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... type thing, and, um, you, you're so right, that, that vibe element of having, having, uh, a Katrin or a Mrs. Bergeron or whatever, like in the team, especially if you have a male-dominated team, fuck, it is so important to have someone that just brings a bit of lightness and, and fun and energy to the situation that isn't this super intensity that I think a lot of guys try and fix, men try and fix situations by drilling down into focus more, by trying to grip things harder, and that often takes you further away from flow rather than into it. It adds pressure on as opposed to releasing it, and I think, yeah, having, having those sorts of, uh, characters makes a big difference.
- BBBen Bergeron
Absolutely, yeah. I love the, the, the references to a flow state, 'cause whether it's my athletes or my employees, my team, that's the goal, right? That is where the best of you comes out. It literally flows out of you because it's not being interrupted by that, the logical thinking brain, which is slow and too calculated. You could, you know, that, um, whether it's you, uh, putting on the nightclub or the restaurateur or the fire chief, that's, that's just something that comes and oozes out of them, and having people that keep it, um, not so heavy, uh, d- for sure is an asset-
- CWChris Williamson
There's a quote-
- BBBen Bergeron
... to any team.
- CWChris Williamson
... a quote from you that says, "The harder you try, the more elusive flow is." And-
- BBBen Bergeron
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... fuck, man, if that's not true, but there's a, there's a real difficulty-
- BBBen Bergeron
I think it was like a bar of soap that you're trying to grab, and like-
- CWChris Williamson
But, but, but-
- BBBen Bergeron
... it's like this, this, yeah, and like, oh, I got it, and the more you try to, like foc- the more you try to focus on how to grab, the, the harder it gets.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a tension here, though, between balancing desire and grit and effort with ease and presence and intuition and gut, and especially I imagine in a sport, but also especially in something like podcasting is a good example, if you try really, really hard, you end up being shit. Like the goal is to just ease yourself into it. How do you encourage a team, especially in a sport that is reliant on grit, determination, resilience, digging your heels in, getting serious about the lift, getting serious about the workout, how do you balance that grit and effort with ease and presence?
Episode duration: 1:49:45
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