Modern WisdomSucceed If You're Empathetic & Driven - Melody Wilding | Modern Wisdom Podcast 315
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,536 words- 0:00 – 0:21
Why boundaries boost confidence for sensitive, driven people
- MWMelody Wilding
Setting boundaries improves your confidence because you're actually regarding yourself, your time as important, as worthy of something. When you don't have any boundaries, you're basically sending that signal to your subconscious that you're not important, you don't matter, everybody else matters a lot more than you. (air rushing)
- 0:21 – 1:59
The “empathetic + driven” paradox—and why it actually outperforms
- CWChris Williamson
Why is being empathetic and driven an interesting combination for people to have?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah. You know, I think we don't think of them together. (laughs) I think we don't think about the combination of traits and, and challenges that happens when we bring together those two qualities of someone who is highly sensitive, so observant, empathetic, kind, but also very driven in their career.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting, isn't it? Because a lot of the qualities that people think of when they talk about being driven, sort of ruthless-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, quite self-centered, um, not really c- c- caring about others, sort of the, the sociopath Wolf of Wall Street type kind of approach.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but success can be driven by a number of different factors, right?
- MWMelody Wilding
Absolutely. And yes, exactly what you're saying, we traditionally think of success, of business with someone who is fast, someone who is merciless, uh, with action. We don't equate it with reflection and careful thinking and kindness and compassion, which is odd because what the research shows is that actually those traits actually lead to higher performance, better teams, higher revenue. So it's counterintuitive that combining those two things would actually create better results because it's the opposite of everything we've been taught and told and conditioned to believe.
- CWChris Williamson
And it preven- presents a very specific set of problems.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? That need a very specific set of solutions.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- 1:59 – 4:09
Defining the “Sensitive Striver” and how to know if it’s you
- CWChris Williamson
And that's what we're going to go through today. So one of the, the terms that you're going to relate to a lot is, uh, sensitive striver. So let's define our terms before we get into it.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
What is a sensitive striver?
- MWMelody Wilding
A sensitive striver is a person who combines those two aspects of someone who is highly sensitive, meaning they think and feel everything more deeply, but they are also high achieving. So they are driven. They reach great heights in their career. They may not necessarily aspire to be top of the pack and CEO, but they have a strong drive to be the best version of themselves. Um, and so when those two qualities come together, it can be a tremendous asset and a superpower, but can also lead to a very specific, uh, set of challenges that comes out of that as well.
- CWChris Williamson
How can people identify if they're a sen- sensitive striver?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there an MOT that people can run through, a checklist?
- MWMelody Wilding
A- absolutely. And so I, you know, I should specify that being a sensitive striver is about, we're talking about 15 to 20% of the population here. So one in five people, I'm sure everyone watchening- watching or listening to this knows someone who is a sensitive striver or works with them or is one themselves. And so sensitive strivers, they are highly attuned to their own emotions as well as those of other people. We are deeply caring. We give our 100% to our work all with an inner world on overdrive. So we process information more deeply than the average person. We're more, uh, affected by our surroundings, which again makes us observant, perceptive. We anticipate inv- eventualities. We are the person who is able to spot opportunities or highlight gaps before things become a problem. But at the same time, being so, uh, affected and processing everything so deeply can also lead to stress, overwhelm, overthinking, especially if you don't have the right set of tools.
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the main disadvantages that you get as a sensitive striver? How does it hold you back?
- 4:09 – 4:39
The STRIVE framework: mapping strengths that can become liabilities
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah. So it might be helpful to go through, uh, eh, the framework I've defined in the book of really identifying yourself the qualities of being a sensitive striver. And we can talk about that because each one has an upside to it, but also has a downside to it that I think will provide more color. So, uh, in the book, I share this STRIVE framework, very easy to remember. Sensitive strivers, your core qualities are STRIVE. And this is the place I start with anyone who comes to coaching or works with me in any of my
- 4:39 – 9:49
STRIVE breakdown (S–E): sensitivity, thoughtfulness, responsibility, inner drive, vigilance, emotionality
- MWMelody Wilding
programs because it's very overwhelming to be a sensitive person. You can feel like there is so much you want to improve or change about yourself or be different that you don't know where to start. So the STRIVE, STRIVE framework is a way of prioritizing where your biggest opportunities are. Our first quality, the S, probably unsurprisingly is sensitivity. Now I know that may seem obvious that, of course, a sensitive striver is sensitive, duh. But this specifically refers to sensory sensitivity. So it is having a more, uh, exaggerated nervous system or a heightened nervous system response to everything that's happening within and around you. So again, you are attuned to your environment, you're attentive to what's going on, you're very perceptive, but at the same time, you can become very easily overstimulated. So when sensitivity, your sensory sensitivity is balanced, you're able to be calm and composed even when there's a lot going on around you, but if not, you can be verily- very easily stressed. You can have a very, um, exaggerated, uh, uh, fight or flight response. So many times I will see unbalanced sensitivity come up with people speaking up in meetings or being put on the spot, for example. People get paralyzed and freeze when put under pressure in that way 'cause they just go into fight or flight and don't know how to deal with it.So that's our first, our S, which is sensitivity. Then we have thoughtfulness, which is the T. And, you know, sensitive strivers, we are very, uh, creative, reflective. We contemplate issues. We're intuitive. Um, but at the same time, if your thoughtfulness is not managed, that can become overthinking, imposter syndrome, self-doubt, indecision, criticism. Uh, we're almost so self-aware that we're the hardest person on ourself because we're so aware of our own behavior. So we have our S, our T, then we have our R in the STRIVE, which is responsibility, and that is, uh, more of the striver side, which, uh, sensitive strivers, we're dependable. We can be... We follow through. We have a high drive for commitment and dedication. But at the same time, we may over-function. We may take on more than our share of responsibility. We may people-please and put other people's needs ahead of our own. So we are the one who will sacrifice our own weekend and, you know, work 10 hours to get a job done. So we're really willing to sacrifice our own wellbeing. We're overly responsible at times. That brings us to our I, which also is the striver side. So the I stands for inner drive. And, you know, sensitive strivers, we are the one who wants to exceed expectations in everything that we do. We wanna check the boxes, get the A+. So we set a lot of goals and we usually achieve them, but sometimes we can overburden ourselves with too many goals. We can overwork because we want to reach the nest- next echelon of our career, and probably most of all, we can fall into perfectionism, where we have this very binary, all or nothing view of success. Either I accomplished my goal and I'm amazing, or I didn't and I'm a failure. Uh, and sometime that perfectionism can lead us to set such an unrealistically high bar for success that we end up (laughs) setting ourselves up for failure because it's not something that can be accomplished. So then we have our V, which is for vigilance, and that's being very attuned to the subtleties in your environment and nuances going on around you. So sensitive strivers, we are very good at reading people. We can sense a change in somebody's body language, even over Zoom, or just pick up on the general mood of a, of a meeting, for example. So again, very attuned to the environment, but it's almost as if your antennas are up all the time just gathering information about what's going on around you, which can be really draining on your battery. Um, and p- most of all, we tend to read into, uh, situations even when there's not danger there. We can perceive something as dangerous, like getting some benign feedback but thinking, "Oh my gosh, it's the end of the world and I'm going to get fired." Uh, that's our vigilance on overdrive. And then our last E is emotionality. So as you probably guessed, and sensitive strivers who are listening or watching can attest to, that we have big, complex feelings about a lot of things, both positive and negative. So we are the one who can, uh, experience the richness of positive emotion and inspire that in others, joy, gratitude, excitement, but we can also get stuck in emotional spirals, anger, fear, anxiety, and stay stuck there longer than most people if we don't have the right tools.
- 9:49 – 12:40
Biology, evolution, and the neuroscience of high sensitivity
- CWChris Williamson
There's a basis for this in... Is it biology or neuroscience as well-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's been discovered? Can you explain that?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes. So the trait of high sensitivity in particular has been studied for over 30 years, and the original researcher who discovered it, Dr. Elaine Aron, uh, found that it was a biological and evolutionary trait that evolved because it kept a certain amount of people in the group safe. It was very beneficial in prehistoric times to have someone who was deliberate and thought before they acted. You wanted someone who didn't just rush into an unknown situation. You wanted someone who paused before they acted. So that's why the trait of sensitivity has existed and persisted over time, because it does provide an advantage. And they have found that this trait of high sensitivity exists in over 100 different species. So everything from, you know, dogs to insects can be highly sensitive. And, uh, you know, the research also shows that people who have this trait of high sensitivity tend to have different bra- brain patterns. So we have different activation in parts of the brain related to things like, uh, attention, concentration, action planning, decision-making. Um, and another interesting finding is that our mirror neurons, so the part of the brain, the neurons that are responsible for empathy, understanding people, being able to read behavioral nuances, we tend to have more active mirror neurons. So our brain lights up more when we see social interaction or we see someone upset, for example, our brain lights up more. Um, so it's very interesting that it's a very real thing because I think for most people who are sensitive strivers or just highly sensitive, uh, at least for me, I know my whole life I grew up trying to stifle this and just thinking, "What's wrong with me? Why am I inadequate? Why am I so fragile and I can't get it together?" Not realizing that it's a part of my personality, and once I named it, identified it and understood it, could actually use it and leverage it as a superpower that it actually is.
- CWChris Williamson
One of your, uh, clients or followers, I think, summarized it in the book in the best way that I saw, where sh- they said, "I over everything."
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's just such a good way to put it because it is-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's just all of the, all of the things that you do turned up to 11. All of the sensitivity-
- MWMelody Wilding
100%.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the interpretation, and the overthinking, and everything just gets turned up to 11. And, um, yeah. I'd say, I, I think I would probably fall somewhere on the spectrum of this.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- 12:40 – 19:44
Gender, socialization, and the ‘honor roll hangover’ pipeline
- CWChris Williamson
I'm going to guess that sensitive striver skews female. Is that right?
- MWMelody Wilding
You know, that's a very interesting question. And first, you're absolutely right, that is a, it is a spectrum. It's not a binary thing. Just like you can be on a spectrum of introversion to extroversion, and some people are in the middle as ambiverts, it's the same thing. So you may relate to some of these qualities more strongly than others, and that's completely normal. Um, but you know, i- the research does actually show there's not a huge difference in the number of men who are highly sensitive versus the number of women. Um, now anecdotally, what's really interesting is the more that I've talked about sensitivity and become more, you know, public with this as a part of my business and my personal story, the more men I've attracted into my community and that I worked with in my coaching, uh, services and programs. So that's, that's been an interesting discovery. But, you know, I think socialization really does affect how sensitivity shows up. So for women in particular, we're always told, "Don't be so emotional," right? Women are the emotional gender, they say. And young girls in particular are really groomed to be perfectionist, were really groomed to follow all the rules and be a good girl. And, you know, certainly I, I can relate to that, that I wanted to be a good girl and please everyone. And most young girls, by the time that they're in their pre-teens, about half say that they cannot fail, that they are not allowed to fail, which is a really d- a really dangerous conditioning for young women. Um, and so they, we take that into the workplace with us, and it can form something I call the honor roll hangover, which is that, um, that conditioning, those qualities, really following you over into your career. So for a lot of women, we face that double bind as well because we have to be... we can't be overly emotional, but we have to be empathetic and warm, but we also have to display competence. So it's a tightrope for women. Whereas for men, so many of them grow up with conditioning that says, "You can't be sensitive. You have to be macho and be tough, and don't cry. You know, only sissies cry." So a lot of sensitive men really disown that part of themselves, and only, you know, later in their lives when they discover this is a very real thing, uh, come around to actually owning it.
- CWChris Williamson
I think what you identify there is that when we try and force people into boxes or archetypes, inevitably, everybody loses because if you have a pre-prescribed idea of where someone's supposed to go and the out... th- their internal state doesn't match that external state, everybody, whether you send women too far left or men too far right, it still ends up being... And I would totally, totally agree. I think for a, a significant period of time, I saw my empathy as a weakness. And still, I, it would be nice if I could give some of it away. I've got, uh, I have it in excess.
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs) If there was a button.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, just to turn it down a little bit.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I could just give some, you know, like charitably.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but after a while, you do realize, "Okay, like this is a relatively immutable source code part of myself, and it's probably, it's probably not going away, so I might as well learn to make it as good as I can or to, to utilize it." And one of the advantages of that is that it means you can get insights about the world and about the people around you and about yourself that very few other people can. And that's a competitive advantage. Um, for the guys or the girls who have absolutely no sensitive striver in them and are fearless and are able to just make decisions and roll with the punches and deal with o- obstacles as they come, there is als- there are also competitive advantages to them. But your competitive advan... You're not going to beat me on, on finding insight. It's just not going to happen. You're not going to be a better podcaster than me because you can't tell all of the different nuances about what's happening in the conversation, the way that someone feels and looks, and their body language, and their tone, and their... all that stuff. But I'm also not going to be able to run a high-paced, high-pressure, high-stress business organization that requires (snaps fingers) a million decisions a day with kind of flow thought as opposed to forethought and planning because that's your wheelhouse. And, um, I really do think that the sensitive striver thing, I like giving things a name without putting them into boxes. Classing it as a paradigm, I think, is a smart way to kind of, uh, give it a label. But also, it really does identify such an odd oxymoron, as we went back to before. What does it mean to be empathetic and driven at the same time? What are the unique challenges that that gives people, but what are the unique opportunities? And then how can we double down on those opportunities? There's a quote that you have from Glennon Doyle which is awesome. It says, "I understand now that I'm not a mess, but a deeply feeling person in a messy world. I explain that now when someone asks me why I cry so often, it is for the same reason I laugh so often, because I'm paying attention." I had Jordan Peterson on the show a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about the difference between looking and watching. He says, "Attention. Attention isn't looking, it's watching. It's watching to see what happens, it's watching to see what the other person's doing, taking in everything that you can." And, um...Yeah, it, the question of whether it's a blessing or a curse to feel things so deeply is one that, uh, I guess curses only sensitive strivers. But, um, that, that quote really sort of sums up-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... a, a lot of interesting insights, I think.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah. Yeah. And I, when I, when I read that I was like, "Oof." That, that one hit me. And, you know, I think there is, there is so much there to the, uh, aliveness and the awakeness of being a sensitive striver. But that, that gets to balancing these qualities because so many times sensitive strivers are on autopilot. On autopilot trying to overcompensate for their insecurities by trying to do more and prove themselves and source their self-worth through achievements and validation from other people. That we're, we're, we're giving all of our attention away to others, and we're not channeling any of it inward. Um, or being, uh, slow with, with our attention, like you were saying, rather than just fast and reactive to everything that's happening around you. But really actually taking it in and leaving room for that processing. Because to me, that, that's the difference between, uh, looking and watching is that watching goes a layer deeper of having meaning and interpretation and purpose to, to what's going on around you.
- 19:44 – 24:51
Escaping the honor roll hangover by ‘giving up goals’
- CWChris Williamson
You talk about this honor roll hangover, which is straight A students that have come through school or college or university.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then they get into the workplace and they constantly feel this need to over-deliver. They're likely to be perfectionists, they're likely to be people who will reread the email 20 times before they send it, and stuff like that. How can people get past that? If I'm just pinging off all of the different things that someone that's listening to this does, they think, "That's me, and that's me, and that's me."
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
How can someone get past this?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes. And so, you know, the, the honor roll hangover is, I define as that intersection of perfectionism, people pleasing, and over-functioning. So the perfectionism piece as you were, as you were saying, kind of overdoing it. But really, perfectionism is about self-criticism and being hard and judgmental on yourself. The people pleasing, putting others before yourself, knocking down your own opinions in favor of others. And the over-functioning is being the one to swoop in, to fix every situation, uh, taking on responsibility. And (clears throat) it creates a dynamic where if you are over-functioning, you create a dynamic where others can underfunction. So you actually disempower them because you're fixing everything and doing everything for them, they don't have to think for themselves. So when, uh, the, the first way to really start unhinging yourself from the honor roll hangover is you have to make more space in your life. Because with the honor roll hangover, you typically have what I call goal collected. You've typically taken on all of these ambitions and, and aims and obligations, many from yourself, because you want to push yourself to achieve more and do more. But also because you feel overly responsible or somebody's else said this would be a good idea to do, or you just feel some sort of sense of, um, obligation, like a, a good employee would be involved in this initiative, right? And so, uh, in the book, I call it the strategy of giving up goals, which is really taking stock of how you are spending your time and looking for areas where you need to rethink a goal or priority or give it up altogether.
- CWChris Williamson
How can you identify those?
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs) So, the first one is looking for places where the goal was not yours in the first place, where you were driven by a sense of, uh, comparison, or as I said, obligation. Anywhere where you are telling yourself you should, you have to, you need to do something, versus wanting to do something. Very important distinction there. Um, so you wanna make sure that anything you're undertaking is really motivated by the right fuel, that you are motivated by an inner longing and desire rather than a fear of missing out. So that would be one. A big one that I see for sensitive strivers is when giving up the goal when it starts to bring you more distress than it starts to bring you benefit. And this is a really important one. I have been here many times in my life where, in the name of pushing myself outside my comfort zone, I push myself way outside my comfort zone to the point of, you know, dread, sleepless nights. Uh, in the, in the book I tell the story of my own very severe burnout, that my goals really led me to a place where I was having heart palpitations, my hair was falling out, and those goals were bringing me a lot more distress, almost death, than benefit. And so yes, d- I am all for discomfort, and in the book I have a whole chapter about taking on more risk and getting comfortable with discomfort. But there comes a point, and you have to develop inner discernment, to know when a goal has pushed you far beyond your comfort zone to the point where it's damaging your health. Uh, and then the last one I would say is when you're fixated more on the results and the outcome than you are on the process. So if you are fixated entirely on getting a title, a certain salary, getting your business to a certain, uh, revenue, rather than the process it takes to get there. For example, you want to, you know, scale your business to a million followers, let's say, but you don't want what comes along with that, the-... uh, building the internal side of your business, perhaps managing a team, creating more content to support that big of an audience, then that is a sign that you might wanna rethink that goal as well.
- CWChris Williamson
I can't remember who it was, I wanna say Seth Godin I was talking to, and he was, he was discussing exactly the same thing, talking about how many people want to be a rockstar but hate playing the guitar.
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You're like, "No, you don't understand."
- MWMelody Wilding
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, the, it's the other way around. You want to love to play the guitar and rockstar will come along for the ride.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- 24:51 – 29:38
Why ‘fake it till you make it’ backfires—and how imposter syndrome really works
- CWChris Williamson
You talk about, uh, "Fake it until you make it." What are your thoughts about that?
- MWMelody Wilding
You know, h- for the most part, um, I don't love the phrase because fake it til you make it suggests being something you're not, right? And so many sensitive Shrivers, the honor roll hangover tricks us into thinking that we can fake it til a point where we have earned worthiness and approval if we only check a certain amount of boxes or meet a certain requirements. And so I think in that way this idea of fake it til you make it, pushing yourself further, uh, in the name of trying to be something you're not can really lead you astray and in the wrong direction.
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. So, you're saying that fake it til you make it is kind of like ... It, th- there's also a- almost a sense of self-deception in there saying that, "I'm not good enough for this thing." It inherently implies that you need to have ticked these boxes before you can get to a particular level. I'm gonna guess that fake it til you make it also feeds into imposter syndrome somehow.
- MWMelody Wilding
Oh, 100%. Yeah, because if you're, uh, if you think you're an imposter, you will just fake it and put on a mask and pretend to be something you're not so that people won't think you're a, an imposter. And what I really think is most, uh, is the biggest slippery slope with fake it til you make it is that we, we bypass looking at the real problems. We, e- especially with imposter syndrome, we just think, "Well, if I look and I act confident, then I will feel confident," rather than addressing what's really-
- CWChris Williamson
Why am I not confident?
- MWMelody Wilding
Why am I not confident? (laughs) What are the thoughts that are, that are generating that feeling? How do I deal with the emotions of shame and doubt? Rather than wrestling with the difficult things, we try to bypass, we try to go over instead of through.
- CWChris Williamson
But also ask yourself, "Do you deserve imposter syndrome?" This did come from Seth Godin, where he said, "If you're doing a thing that you've never done before, you quite rightly deserve your imposter syndrome." You are an imposter. You haven't done it.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It, it's, it's like, uh, reframed it as adventure syndrome.
- MWMelody Wilding
I love that.
- CWChris Williamson
If you are mapping new territory, then how do you know if you're going to be able to succeed or not? But on the flip side of that, this is something that I try and tell as many people who bring up imposter syndrome to me as I can, your imposter syndrome should only be able to survive being disproven in the real world so many times before it just leaves. If you start clinging onto it ... I- imposter syndrome and believing that you are not worthy of the successes that you have isn't the same as being humble.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think a lot of people believe that it is somehow, that, "Oh, well, if I, if I hold onto this imposter syndrome it's keeping me rooted to the floor."
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Your goal is to have the most accurate self-view that you can at all times.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's it. And by holding onto your imposter syndrome, if the imposter syndrome makes you feel less than you are, that's inaccurate. And if the fake it til the make it makes you feel more than you are, that's also inaccurate. Just try and have a relatively rational world view about yourself-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and about your capacities.
- MWMelody Wilding
100%. Yeah, and, you know, whenever I talk to people about imposter syndrome I always say e- exactly what you were saying, that sometimes doubt is a normative response and where it becomes imposter syndrome is when your sense of doubt is out of sync with your self-perception or the facts of z- of the situation. So if the facts of the situation e- are that you've never done something, it's unproven, this is new to you, then it's completely normal to feel a sense of doubt. You're just having a normal human response to a situation. Versus imposter syndrome would be, "I've proven success here, I've received great praise and accolades, I have training in this area, yet I still don't feel like enough and I still feel like every moment someone's going to come along and say I'm a fake and I'll be found out." So, that's a very important distinction that I don't think a lot of people realize we group them together.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, and the fake it til you make it as well is going to, it's going to cause a buffer to sit between you and whoever is complimenting you or the award that you win or the accolades that you manage to achieve. "You've hit this year's target." "Well yeah, but I, I was faking it un- until I made it."
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, that still isn't internalized.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, i- that basically means that you're kind of strapping yourself to the tree that is your own fake it til you make it imposter syndrome. You're just going to stay there.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- 29:38 – 34:34
Giving yourself permission to succeed: starting before you feel ready
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so you, you split the book into three sections and you go into the second section now where you talk about what sh- people should give themselves permission to do. What should they give-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... themselves permission to do?
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs) Yeah. You know, uh, a lot of things. Um, but specifically permission to succeed. So many sensitive Shrivers are afraid to be who they are. They're afraid to do well because they're afraid of success, which is sounds funny to say that someone could be afraid of success, but you can. Um, and so they need permission to succeed, to feel like they're not outshining others or they're not the tall poppy that's gonna get cut down. "What will people think of me if I do well?" Um, and specifically to get out of their own way thinking that there's one right way to accomplish something, that someone out there prescribed that there's certain steps you need to take or, uh, an exact model that exists and you just need to find it. That's not how the world works. So you need to give, give yourself permission to take matters into your own hands, listen to yourself, and starting...... before you feel ready, starting, uh, before you feel completely qualified or prepared.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you-
- MWMelody Wilding
That would be first. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I was gonna say, just how can people ... What, what are some of the techniques that people can do to instantiate that?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah, you know, uh, s- some of this is what they need to stop doing. (laughs) And so with, with our type of personality in particular, sensitive strivers, we tend to over-prepare and we get into procrasti-learning, as I call it, which is a diversion tactic of, uh, over-researching. I will have clients who will, uh, say they wanna accomplish something, and then they will spend weeks planning and putting together spreadsheets and, "Yeah, but I need to put together my, my strategy plan, my business plan." And in all, th- they over-complicate and they spend so much time researching and thinking about something rather than just acquiring knowledge as they go. Or I see this a lot with my clients who are business owners, for example, they will spend so much time creating a website when they don't even need a website right now. They could go out and get clients through referrals, for example. And so it's a diversion tactic to focus on the comfortable thing instead of the thing that feels a little more challenging and exposing to us. Um, so that would be one way, but, uh, but another thing I love to go through with my clients is having them remember and root into their own resilience. And even just going through the exercise of reminding yourself of three times in your life when you have done something difficult or challenging. How did you get through it? What did you learn from that? Can really help you realize, "Oh, I actually do have what it takes. I've been in this sort of situation before. I can navigate through this again." Because often what blocks people from starting before they're ready is the self-doubt, is the sense of inadequacy that, "I can't do this. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not good enough. What are people going to think of me?" And so getting your mindset right will mean that then your actions can fall into place around that, because we always wanna be consistent with our beliefs and how we s- see ourselves. So if you see yourself as inadequate, well guess what? You're gonna keep hitting up against a brick wall when you try to take action. But if you see yourself as someone who is resourceful and figures it out as you go, well then you're gonna allow yourself to take action in that direction.
- CWChris Williamson
It's one of the beautiful things of experience, right? As you spend-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... more time disproving your own imposter syndrome and coming up against different challenges, inevitably you actually think, "Well, God, h- how long can I believe that I'm an incapable buffoon-"
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... whilst still disproving it in the real world?"
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then you have this litany, this huge library of past catastrophes that you got through, and last minute submissions for work and all the rest of this stuff, and you think, "Well, God, there isn't much left for me not to conquer." You know what I mean?
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think that's one of the ... I think that's one of the reasons why when we see people in the business world who have been in there for, you know, a decade or a couple of decades and still quite haven't got past that needing to prove a point constantly-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, uh, feeling inadequate. And you can tell when you see somebody walk into a room and s- sit down in a meeting, I think that's why that's so jarring, because you think, "Come on, you've, you've been doing this for 15 years or 20 years. Like, chop-chop, you need to, you need to play catch-up here."
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah. There's a, there's a proving energy to it, right? Versus, "I'm, I'm comfortable and secure in myself."
- CWChris Williamson
Competence. Yes, exactly.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.
- 34:34 – 39:20
Turning emotions into an advantage through regulation and social foresight
- CWChris Williamson
How, how do you channel emotions into an advantage?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah. You know, I was talking to somebody else about this today, and I think an important distinction here is that you can't have emotional intelligence without emotional regulation. And channeling your emotions into an advantage, you were talking about it before, that that emotional insight and attentiveness you have to other people is what makes you successful as a podcaster. And I, I have one client who, uh, once told me this great story where she works in a, a large media company. Uh, the company was getting ready to do a, a huge technology overhaul, and she, because she was a sensitive striver, anticipated, "Oh boy, this is going to cause some conflict and friction between the product team and the technical team." And having that emotional foresight, she was able to go to each of those teams, go to one person on each team and say, "Hey, how are you feeling about this? What's coming up for you?" 'Cause she had known there had been some roadblocks with them before, and was the one who brought them together to mediate the conflict and really create a, a space for those emotions to come out and be channeled in an effective way that led to the collaboration being successful. If a sensitive striver hadn't been in that role, it might have been a complete debacle that they were able to make this technology change within a couple of months versus things like that can take years, for example. And when you have someone who has that emotional attuneness, that is how it can be an advantage. You're able to understand people's motivations. You can influence other people. You can also use your own emotions to persuade and motivate people. So, so many of my sensitive strivers as managers, leaders, and business owners, they are highly effective and they are the boss everyone wants to work for, because they are someone who cares about, "Hey, how are you doing? How's your family?" They make you feel seen and validated. They have a pulse on morale. They know if ... They can tell if you are feeling, if you're dragging or feeling burned out and will work with you to help adjust your workload or give you time off.... for example. So, you know, the- the research shows that- that being someone who is more attentive to emotions makes you more successful, it earns you more money. For example, um, teams with emotionally in-touch leaders are more, uh, successful, they're more innovative because there's trust. People feel like they can take chances and they won't be beat up or thrown under the bus for it. Um, but of course, at the same time, being someone who is overly emotional, especially if you, if your strive qualities are unbalanced, can be a challenge. But those are some of the ways that it can be a benefit, and I don't think we often put those pieces together to see emotions as a strength because we're taught, "Keep your emotions out of it. Emotions don't belong in business," when business is people, so.
- CWChris Williamson
Something I've just realized there is if there is a competitive advantage to being a playmaker, it seems like the- the sensitive striver and the emotions would work very well in a playmaker role, multiple different people, very people-oriented, very forward-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... facing, perhaps internal as well. Um, if you are someone that has that capacity, think about how hard it is for you to fully open up and fully utilize those skills, uh, accept the fact that you feel, and notice, and are perceptive of what's going on, and then realize that not only is there only a small subsection of the entire workforce that has that capacity, but of the people that have that capacity, there's only a small subsection of those people that are prepared to utilize it-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because everybody has the same level of discomfort around utilizing it that you do. So you say, "Okay, so I'll chop that down, and then chop this down," you go, "Wow, actually, if I can just get past myself."
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"If I can just get over this hump, there is a h- a very, very small group of people that I'm competing with with this particular talent pool," because first you need to have the talent, and then secondly, you need to have the bravery or the courage to actually be able to deploy it.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
So yeah, I think if that's, if that doesn't compel someone to go, "Okay, right, I'm gonna-"
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... I'm gonna utilize my empathy here. I'm gonna combine the empathy and the drive, and I'm going to use it to make me a more effective businessperson," I think that should be, that should be a pretty big wake-up call for them.
- MWMelody Wilding
100%. Perfectly, perfectly said.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what I like to hear.
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs)
- 39:20 – 49:02
Ending overthinking and learning to trust your gut
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, uh, what can people do to end overthinking? Obviously, this is kind of the- the flip side of the coin, right? It's all well and good-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... us talking about, "Well, I'm insightful, and perceptive, and I can tell what's going on, and I can foresee problems between people before they occur," but the flip side of that is you're going to move more slowly because you inevitably overthink, complicated-
- MWMelody Wilding
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and y- you're going to overcomplicate situations. How can people get past that?
- MWMelody Wilding
That's right, yeah. And so realizing, uh, realizing when you're overthinking is- is huge here because as a sensitive striver, your natural mode is to take in more information and process it more deeply. But when you realize you are starting to hit mental dead ends, your thinking is starting to make you stressed or anxious or is just unhelpful, that's when you're overthinking. One of my favorite tools from the book, uh, and it's just a, it's a quick, uh, tip but it's really powerful, is naming your inner critic, giving it a name, personifying it, creating an identity for it.
- CWChris Williamson
What's yours called?
- MWMelody Wilding
The little monster. (laughs) Or the gremlin. I go between the two. Um, but that is my inner critic, for sure. I have had clients name theirs Darth Vader, for example, uh, all sorts of things. And you know, it's fun. The point is to make it a little more lighthearted so that you're not so fused with those negative thoughts, that they don't feel so heavy and damaging to you, but you can actually create some psychological distance and be able to put that pause between, okay, automatic thought and what do I want to choose to think, or what action do I want to take going forward? That's a- a very quick one, but definitely one of my favorites.
- CWChris Williamson
So the overthinking arises, you notice that you're starting to get lost in a little bit of a thought loop, and you think, "Oh, there's- there's Darth Vader again having another pop."
- MWMelody Wilding
That's right. That's right. And then it gives you, i- it gives you that moment to assess, to assess like, "Oh, I see you. I can make a more conscious choice rather than a reactive, automatic, let me just spiral out, and let me just make a conscious choice in that moment. Do I wanna believe Darth Vader? Do I wanna buy into that? Is there ... What does my, what does my wise inner voice tell me and want me to do differently?"
- CWChris Williamson
That's a practice that many people that meditate will be familiar with, right, noting-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... just providing that mindfulness gap. Um, James Altucher- Al- Alt- Altercar, uh, has the not useful label, if you've heard of that?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, which I absolutely love. So whenever he notices a thought in his mind that he realizes is not useful, he just notices, labels it "not useful," and it disintegrates the veracity and- and the size of whatever it is you're thinking about-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because you go, "Well, I don't, I don't want you. I don't want you in my mind," but until we realize that, until we create that mindfulness gap and give us thas- give ourselves that distance. I'm gonna guess that learning to trust your gut is a skill that a lot of sensitive strivers could probably do with trying to acquire.
- MWMelody Wilding
Oh, yes, because we are conditioned as sensitive strivers. It's that people pleaser in us. It's the vigilant side where we're paying attention to everything outside of ourselves to the point where we start to overvalue other peoples' opinions. We start to think they know what's best for us, or again, that there's a right way to do something. Uh, we get caught up in those shoulds, and we don't develop ... You know, I really believe that listening to your gut is a muscle, and so it's something that can be developed if you give it-... attention.
- CWChris Williamson
What does that mean? Is it getting out of your own way? Is it, i- i- it's not acting on impulse, it's not acting on instinct. What is it?
- MWMelody Wilding
No. So, you know, gut, gut, hunch, intuition, I group them all as the same thing, which is basically listening to yourself. And sensitive strivers, we have a more advanced ability to do this because of our processing. Because we're attuning to more that's happening around us, we're taking that in more, we're processing that information in a more complex, intricate way. It's like we have a, a bigger database to be pulling from. So intuition, you wanna think of it a little bit like, um, a pattern-matching game, where when you have to make a decision or a choice, your brain, in a matter of fractions of a millisecond, is doing these calculations, pulling from all of your past experiences, your preferences, your learnings, uh, your memories, and is calculating, "How is this situation like the past, and how can I use information to provide as much of an analog to what's happening now about how I should behave?" And so as a sensitive striver, we have a deeper well to pull from. And intuition, it can feel a little, you know, woo-woo, or spiritual, or fluffy, because it is so unconscious and f- (snaps fingers) and fast. But it is really that, i- it's beyond awareness. It's almost that physiological response of something in my gut and in my body feels right. Or, I, I call it like a f- um, an internal traffic light. When your intuition says something is a go, you feel like, "Yes, I know this is totally the right decision for me." But when your intuition says, you know, "Maybe you should stay away," or, "This isn't good," you, you feel that resistance inside.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting, I've been thinking about this a lot recently, trying to get out of our own way with things, like just get rid of the cerebral front brain stuff.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and this is one of the problems I see in the personal development and the, the self-growth world generally, that when you're constantly striving to try and be better, you l- inevitably lose a degree of confidence in your own existing skill set-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because there's something inherent about, "Oh, well, I've got to acquire more, because I need, I need to know about that thing, and I need to, uh, i- improve my communication, and I need to be-"
- MWMelody Wilding
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... "better with this and that and the other." And I think one of the things that would be really interesting if, if people were able to do it, would be to periodize their years perhaps, and say, "Okay, so maybe for a couple of months, I'm gonna focus on growing. And then for a couple of months, I'm not, I'm not gonna be too bothered about actually trying to acquire new skills, I'm just going to allow the existing ones I have to kind of permeate the actions that I do." And then you go, "Okay, wow, like, look what happens when I get out of my own way and I just allow that stuff to flow." Um, yeah, the, the, the unconscious insights that we get, I think, it's easy in the modern era where o- and, you know, we're, we're here talking about personal development, but letting it go every so often and just saying, "Right, I'm just gonna have faith that the system-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and all the stuff I've acquired is just gonna amalgamate somewhere in the back of my brain or the base-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- 49:02 – 1:07:09
Boundaries, confidence, and assertiveness: tactical communication and handling setbacks
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you talk about is to do with, with boundaries, and I think that's quite interesting. Inevitably, if you are a sensitive striver, someone that wants to overdeliver and overachieve-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're going to...... take your work home with you, and reply to emails on the weekend, and do all that sort of stuff.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Why are boundaries so hard to build and how can people build them?
- MWMelody Wilding
Oh, gosh. Uh, now more than ever, they're so difficult because there is no... We don't have artificial boundaries anymore between our professional lives and our personal lives. We used to have... For most people, used to go into the office or a co-working space. You would have your commute as time to transition into that professional mindset. Now there is no separation between that. And for many people, you have kids at home, so your home is also school. There's just th- there's no, uh, external boundaries as much anymore, so it's a huge challenge now. But especially for sensitive strivers, the misunderstanding about boundaries is that they make you mean, you're having to be harsh, and it goes against that identity that we have as being helpful to people and wanting to please people, for example. But in the book, I really go into the fact that boundaries are meant to be helpful to both you and other people, so they serve other people as well because clear is kind, and people need to know where you stand and how to get the best out of you, and boundaries are what help us with that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's, um... I've got Cal Newport coming on, uh-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... later this week and his new book's A World Without Email.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, so th- I'm gonna go really deep on, on this. But, um... Yeah. It, it's, it's weird because if you're fortunate enough to do something that you love, you can almost let it kill you, you know? If you do end up blending the passion with the boundarylessness of life-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it can become a very dangerous combination, and that's before you say, "Oh, well, what if, what if I'm not actually that enamored with my job?" Or, "What if my boss is a bit of a dick?"
- MWMelody Wilding
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You know, that, that makes it even worse. So we've talked a lot about self-confidence and stuff today, but you have an entire strat- uh, chapter which is dedicated to strategies for it.
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of your favorite strategies for achieving self-confidence or improving it?
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah. Well, you know, uh, uh, for boundaries in particular, I think this is important one and I wanna stay there, because this is actually an area where you can use your emotions to your advantage. And setting boundaries improves your confidence because you're actually regarding yourself, your time as important, as worthy of something. When you don't have any boundaries, you're basically sending that signal to your subconscious that you're not important, you don't matter, everybody else matters a lot more than you. So with boundaries, I always tell clients to start with using the data found in your emotions. Uh, in the book, I go into a more comprehensive assessment, but I would be urging listeners to look for the emotion of resentment, so bitterness or indignation, uh, towards a person or a situation. You know, let's say you are feeling resentful that you said you would help out a colleague with something, and now it's been six months and, you know, there's no sign of that changing, they said it would be temporary, and you're feeling resentful. That's a sign that a boundary needs to be set. So that motion can be very instructive and it can really improve your confidence to start stead- setting those boundaries because you have to be more assertive, you have to speak up about your needs and your wants, and like I said, you start to prove to yourself that you're valuable, but, you know, more importantly, your confidence increases with the number of promises you keep to yourself. So if you are someone that always says, "Well, I'm gonna make time to work out tonight," and then, "Well, you know what? I said I had to get this thing back to my boss. Let me just do that instead. I can work out over the weekend," and you keep pushing it, every time you do that, you lose a little bit of credibility with yourself. You are teaching yourself you can't trust yourself. So setting, making, and keeping those small commitments is huge to improving your confidence. By and far, that is the number one thing that I work on with clients. Building that momentum, building that chain of small wins helps you internalize that you can trust yourself, but then also reflecting on those wins. So I always advocate that my clients have a brag file, which is a place where you can record your accomplishments. And accomplishments can be defined as, "Things went great, I knocked it out of the park," but also moments of strength where, "I overcame resistance or had to make a tough decision." Um, those are all brags for sure. And the process of pausing to note those down, again, sends the signal to your mind that this is important, that this is not just, "Okay, yeah, today was fine. Move on to the next thing," or the negativity bias taking over of, "All these great things happened, but I got one piece of negative feedback in an email from a reader and that totally decimates my day." It helps balance out that negativity bias.
- CWChris Williamson
The... We're totally aligned on that-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... with regards to confidence. I think people mistakenly believe that confidence is something that's bestowed on you and it's not something that's given, it's earned.
- MWMelody Wilding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And d- you have the right to be confident. It's the same as... It kind of links back to the imposter syndrome thing. Like if-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you are performing r- the expectation of you is miles outside of anything you've ever achieved before, then you might actually have the right to be un-confident-
- MWMelody Wilding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you're going to be able to do it, but you can still approach that with a level of adventure and vigor and energy and think, "Well, if I, if I'd, if even I don't believe I can do this, then what have I got to lose?" That's another way to reframe it, right? There's two-
- MWMelody Wilding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... two quotes that I absolutely adore from, um-... the things that I've read recently. One is Naval Ravikant and he says, "Self-esteem is the reputation you have with yourself, you'll always know." Uh, and that very much kind of relates to what you said there. It's the friend that you invite out for dinner, if they kept on not turning up to dinner, you wouldn't invite them anymore. That is very much the way that you and your internal monologue have a relationship. Now I had Steven Kotler, the founder of the Flow Research Project on the show a little while ago.
Episode duration: 1:07:14
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