Succeeding In Life, Business & Marriage - Aubrey Marcus | Modern Wisdom Podcast 375

1. 0:00 – 1:28

   Intro

   1. AMAubrey Marcus0:00

      ... that question, the first person you ask that question to is yourself. Do I love myself for who I am, or do I love myself for what I do? You're expecting other people to do something that you haven't done, most of the time, right? You're like, "I wish they would just love me for who I am. Meanwhile, I'm gonna love myself for what I do." (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:20

      (wave crashes) Aubrey Marcus, welcome to the show.

   3. AMAubrey Marcus0:22

      Thanks, Chris. Happy to be here again, man.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:24

      I know, dude. Congratulations on the marriage.

   5. AMAubrey Marcus0:28

      Yeah, that's the big one, right? (laughs) I mean, I was expecting on it to come out of that, but the big one is the marriage. I got, I got my dream relationship. I mean, it's stunning. Just layers and layers of beautiful complexity. And, uh, I'm really, really so, so happy.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:46

      Man, that's amazing. Like, it's... Especially to do it during a pandemic as well?

   7. AMAubrey Marcus0:51

      Yeah, I mean, I, I think the pandemic is a bit subjective. You know, everybody had their own pandemic experience. Um, you know, for me it was... I've known Veilana for many years, so it was actually like, I don't know if our actions would've been that different. I mean, maybe a few more dinners out rather than cooking at home, but- (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:12

      (laughs)

   9. AMAubrey Marcus1:12

      ... nonetheless, when you get into this kind of, uh, you know, passionate union, we were just gonna be spending a lot of time together anyways. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:21

       Dude, I love it, man. It makes me happy to see you happy, and it really does look like you are.

   11. AMAubrey Marcus1:26

       Yeah. No doubt, man. No doubt.

2. 1:28 – 7:52

   Enjoying the Present

   1. AMAubrey Marcus1:28

   2. CWChris Williamson1:28

      There's a video that I saw of yours a little while ago, and I'm just gonna read out a transcript that I pulled from it. "I spent so much of my life terrified of what I was going to become and whether I was going to be right here, right now. God, how much time did I waste afraid I wasn't going to be right here, right now? If I could change, the only thing I'd change about my whole life would be fearing less that I wouldn't get here, the place that I was going anyway. I wouldn't change all those mistakes and mishaps. I needed those. But all the constant worry that I wasn't going to make it, that took me out of enjoying the moment, it took me out of enjoying these experiences, smiling or eating my lunch or doing whatever I was doing. Know your mission, have faith you're going to get there. Wherever you go, it's going to be all right. Just find ways to get out of your head." What's that mean to you?

   3. AMAubrey Marcus2:13

      Hm. This is the constant, ever-present reminder, advice that I give to myself. And as many times as I say it, I need to say it one more time, because this is, this is the task, this is the challenge. You know, I don't want to go to the end of my life and say, "Ah, I did a lot of good stuff, but I never really enjoyed any of it, because I was always worried about the next thing that I did," and that's how I've lived so much of my life. It was always been about projecting my mind into the future, solving future problems, figuring out what I was gonna do next, at the cost of really being present with what I was doing in the moment. Now, a lot of people might think that there's a trade-off, like it's one or the other. You're either just enjoying the moment and you're just blissed out, like, you know, somebody who's high looking at daffodils in a fucking field or something (laughs) like that, you know? Or, you're really focused. But there's a way to be really present in the actions that you're doing, and I've been able to touch that thing and experience it in small doses. But I wanna live that way. I wanna still... Of course I'm gonna be thinking about the future, thinking about what I can build, thinking about how I can contribute to the world. The world certainly needs it now more than ever, it feels like. But can I do that with my heart full and, you know, really present with what I'm doing, rather than in anxiousness or fear or concern about whether it's gonna work, whether I'm doing enough, all of these thoughts in the mind, and just move forward with this kind of confident knowing that I'm here, I'm doing my best, and that's all that matters. And, uh, it's going to, it's going to happen as it happens, which it always has. That's the thing. Like, I'm batting 1,000. Like, I've never struck out, you know? Like, I'm, uh, I've always... Whatever. Even if I've made a mistake, even if I've fallen on my face, I've learned from it, it's all been perfect. But nonetheless, I look ahead to the future with this anticipation of, "Maybe this time I'm gonna fail and the failure's gonna be the worst thing that's ever gonna happen." It never is. So it's like getting out of these patterns. And that's my, um, you know, that's my prayer. That's my daily constant reminder and prayer, and I have to go back to it all the time.

   4. CWChris Williamson4:25

      Where do you think that comes from? Is it fear?

   5. AMAubrey Marcus4:29

      It is fear. There's a deep, deep fear. I recognized early on in my life that I had unbelievable potential and advantage. I mean, my parents were all exceptional in what they did. My father, a top commodities trader; my stepfather, a SWAT team squad captain; my mother, a professional tennis player, made it to the semifinals of Wimbledon; my stepmother, a top nutraceutical doctor who was working with Pat Riley's teams. Like, I had amazing mentors in my family. You know, I had a lot of natural aptitude. I was speaking and using language, you know, at one years old, like, in a, in a pretty astounding way. Like, it just... Language came really easily to me. The way my mind worked. My body's been really healthy. I've always... So many advantages, and I've recognized that. And with that, I've realized, like, "I've gotta do some fucking important shit," you know? Like, "I don't wanna squander this." And I really love, I love life, I love people, I love the world. So I love the world, I know what I'm capable of, and so the biggest fear comes, "Maybe I'm not gonna do enough."

   6. CWChris Williamson5:35

      Expectations.

   7. AMAubrey Marcus5:35

      "Maybe I've been given..." Yeah, exactly. "I've been given all of these advantages, all of these blessings, I'd better do something fucking epic," you know? And, "Maybe I won't, and maybe I'll fail," and that's the, that's the constant fear. I've, I've gone into my own fear of death. You know, ayahuasca's really helped me with that, and I don't believe death is anything like people think death is. It's just a transition to a really beautiful place, so I don't really worry about death so much.... of course, you know, I don't wanna, I don't want death, I don't wanna, (laughs) I don't wanna experience that. But what I'm really afraid of is, I'm afraid of not doing enough, and that's the fear that I'm currently still, still, fuck, still working on. It's like this, really trusting that it's enough. Whatever I do, it's enough.

   8. CWChris Williamson6:22

      After the marriage, after the company sale, after the so on and so on and so on. Still there.

   9. AMAubrey Marcus6:31

      The thing is, there's no external satisfaction to this, to this mental construct. There's nothing that I could do. I could literally come up with some philosophical treatise, some, you know, some documentary or some book, and the book just, you know, is like a sonic boom around the world and shifts consciousness radically, and I would still be like, "Ah, what's my next book? This isn't enough." (laughs) It doesn't fucking matter, right? Like, it doesn't matter. There's no satisfaction to this drive to do more and this fear that I'm not doing enough. So, I have to go inside, internally, and, and that's, that's where the real work is, it's in the privacy of my own mind and heart, because I'll never, and nobody can, satisfy internal fears and desires with external realities.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:23

       Well, that's what people presume, right? We look to the challenges and the inadequacies that we feel that we have, and the validation that we think that we need, and we look to the outside world. "Okay, well, if I can tick this box and this box and this box and this box, then maybe I'll finally feel like I'm enough, or maybe I'll finally have confidence that I'm going to be able to continue and actually complete the things that I want to do." And yet, the adaptation is a hell of a drug, man. Like, it just doesn't seem to slow down. It just keeps on coming.

   11. AMAubrey Marcus7:51

       Nope.

3. 7:52 – 13:48

   Selling Onnit

   1. AMAubrey Marcus7:52

      No. Yeah, I mean, it's, selling Onnit was a huge win. First of all, I built the company of my dreams. We've helped-

   2. CWChris Williamson7:59

      Can you explain for people that don't know what you, what's happened recently, what's happened there?

   3. AMAubrey Marcus8:04

      So, 2010, um, I founded a company called Onnit, and the idea was total human optimization. It was about putting all of the best things you could into supplements, into functional foods, and then really bringing, you know, bringing to the masses this idea of unconventional fitness. Kettlebells, steel maces and steel clubs which come from 12th century Persia and old training methods and battle ropes and all the different, you know, ways in which the body moves like the body is designed to move, and then supporting it with these rare botanicals and nutritional herbs and then bringing those to clinical studies to prove the efficacy, things that you could really feel. And then, more than that, just an ethos, and ethos about being a little bit better tomorrow than you are today. You know, like, that's the, that was always the idea. Like, we can strive for more, we can bring more out of ourself, become more capable, reach our potential. And no matter who you are or where you are, like, you can be Onnit, you can be the best version of yourself, and your best version is as good as anybody's best version. So, it's a really positive idea and also disruptive ideas about how to treat your customers. You know, we had a return policy where people didn't even have to send their product back. They could just be like, "Yo, I didn't like it. We give you your money back." Like, really honoring everybody with real reciprocity. Built that and took it as far as I could possibly take it, until I couldn't take it any further myself, and I recognized that and was able to exit and sell to a big global company called Unilever, and they're gonna take it global, around the world. Already plans to really push Onnit into markets that we just didn't have the capability to reach. So, uh, everywhere from, uh, even, it's, it's odd, but like, Australia and Canada, it's so hard to sell stuff there. (laughs) Like, it really is.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:56

      Why?

   5. AMAubrey Marcus9:57

      There's, you know, well, there's the TGA, Therapeutic Goods Association in Australia, there's Health Canada in Canada-

   6. CWChris Williamson10:04

      Each nation, each domain has a different one. Uh...

   7. AMAubrey Marcus10:04

      ... and Canada and then there's each, and then the UK has a whole fucking mess of things. In Germany, you have to have a prescription to get vitamin C. It's like, (laughs) it's like cra- like vitamins are prescription drugs in Germany. It's like very, it's very complicated from a regulatory standpoint. But Onnit is a, it's a global disruptive movement, it's a movement. And so, like, I couldn't take it any further, so, you know, these, you know, our new, our new acquirers can, and so it was like an easy choice. Like, all right. And they've left the, the team entirely intact. It's still exactly ... it, it's the d- it was the dream, you know? And also, the massive resources that that's allowed me to have. So, this whole process happens, and this is like, you would think that after that I could be like, "And then Aubrey rested." No! No! Not at all! People are like, "How is it after the sale of Onnit?" I was like, "I don't know, it's fucking stressful. I got all these resources now and I feel like I have to do s- ten times as much because I have all of this potential to do even more and I'm fucking going crazy!" (laughs) You know? It's like ... and that's my own fault, you know? And it's, uh, it's, 'cause, it's just I haven't escaped that kind of mindset. It's just, as much as I'm capable of doing, then my, put pressure on myself to do even more.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:22

      It's weird that when you have more fuel in the fire that it doesn't, it doesn't sort of make you calm down. It decides, "Okay, I'm just gonna build this big and I'm gonna try and get the rocket to go further." And there's almost a-

   9. AMAubrey Marcus11:32

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:33

       ... there's almost a pressure around the fact that you feel like you need to do, you feel like you need to achieve with this, now that you have these extra resources. Because most people would think, you know, you wake up, you look at the bank account that morning. Like, did you feel any different on the morning of the day that everything went through?

   11. AMAubrey Marcus11:54

       There was this sense of like, "Holy shit. Like, it really happened. Like, it really happened." That was, that was real, and that took a little while to integrate and set in, but...... I didn't give myself much time. I mean, it was ... There's a lot of als- ... It's not like it's almost like there's pressure. There was mad pressure. You know, because first of all, I have all of this, all of this liquid resou- I've never had ... All of my real wealth was tied up in the stock and, and the equity in Onnit, right? That was, that ... I mean, I got paid from Onnit, but whatever. But that was a, it was a different level. Now, I have these liquid resour- like, "Okay, I gotta figure out how to put these in, in safe places." You know? Like, "What am I gonna do with these?" So that was like a first little scramble where I'm, like, figuring all that out. And then from there, tons of, you know, tons of different charitable options, things that I haven't been able to do. Donating this to Maps for this new study, donating this to this quiet group in Brazil that's really kind of holding the candle for an island of sanity and, and, and consciousness that, you know, nobody knows. Like, all these little v- from obscure to really present, you know, and, and, kind of obvious ways to, to donate money, so there's been that whole rush. And then there's been investments in different ideas and startups that I really believe in. And then there's just this idea of like, "Okay, now I have all of these resources," as you said. It's like, if I was ... I don't like war analogies, but it's just the easiest to say. It's like, if I'm a general and my goal is to spread love to the world, I have now the resources like a, like one of those video games, like those sim video games where you can, like, build your little Unlimited resources now. ... you know, your army or your-

   12. CWChris Williamson13:32

       You've got the unlimited resources hacked. Yeah, the cheat code's been put in.

   13. AMAubrey Marcus13:34

       Exactly. It's like, "What do we want? Do you want, do you want tanks, or dragons, or drawbridges-"

   14. CWChris Williamson13:38

       (laughs)

   15. AMAubrey Marcus13:38

       "... or fucking moats, or like ... " I have all these resources. Like, "I gotta build, I gotta build. What am I doing? I gotta build." And, uh, and so it's, it's been an interesting time.

4. 13:48 – 24:36

   The Need for Validation

   1. AMAubrey Marcus13:48

   2. CWChris Williamson13:49

      What about the validation, the desire for validation? The last time that we spoke, there's this Naval Ravikant quote that came up that said, "It is far easier to achieve your material desires than to renounce them." Is there-

   3. AMAubrey Marcus14:00

      Hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:00

      ... is this an answered question for that with you now? Does the- does it feel like there's any sort of a door closed at all?

   5. AMAubrey Marcus14:10

      The desire for validation for me was mostly with women, right? Like, that was always the, that was always the biggest, the biggest hurdle. And I think it was one of the driving forces behind my desire to be in a polyamorous relationship before I got married, was I had this insatiable desire to be loved by the feminine. And so one partner loving me was not enough, but maybe two partners loving me was enough. Well, that wasn't quite enough, but three-

   6. CWChris Williamson14:39

      Three is the answer.

   7. AMAubrey Marcus14:40

      ... now three.

   8. CWChris Williamson14:40

      I fucking knew it.

   9. AMAubrey Marcus14:40

      Three would do it.

   10. CWChris Williamson14:41

       Three. I fucking knew it.

   11. AMAubrey Marcus14:42

       "W- what about that fourth, though? Could I ... " And then meanwhile, everybody hated me. You know, polyamory is really, (laughs) really hard. And it's not because I did anything wrong, it's just, it's really hard. It's really, really hard to manage all that. So it was a beautiful, uh, it was a beautiful experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But that was really where I was seeking validation the most, and I think one of the things that has really settled was, you know, my marriage with Vailana. That's, that, that she is my dream girl in every possible way. And so there's a whole area of my life where I'm like, "Okay, this thing, I did it. There's nothing more that I need to do. Like, I, I hit it, I nailed it." You know? And that's one of, at least in one area of my life, this insatiable quest for more has been settled. It's been quelled. And, and with that, a lot of the need for validation. Now, it's not that I don't have some of that, you know? I mean, there's, there's still a desire to be validated by my own standards of what I think I'm capable of, right? So really, I'm still fighting my own internal judge that's saying, "Are you doing enough? Are you doing enough?" How about, "I don't know." "You were, you're watching a movie. You better bring your laptop out 'cause you could do something while you're watching the movie," which is crazy, right? "Just watch the fucking movie and do something later." But I still, I still wrestle with that.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:15

       Do you worry that, now that you're in a relationship and that you're so happy, if you said that a lot of your motivation came from this desire for validation, are you concerned that that's going to quench some of that fire?

   13. AMAubrey Marcus16:30

       Well, it has. It has, in a way. So that's a great question, and, uh, I just wanna take a moment to acknowledge, you know, your mastery as a podcaster, 'cause it's, I do a lot of interviews for ... Really, it's a really good question. A lot of these have been really good questions. The thing is, is that a great part of my motivation for my life, for everything that I did ... Let me tell you, I'll start with a story. So I was, I was such a frustrated romantic for all my whole life, at least until I was 20- 21 I started to have a little success. But up until 21 it was just a litany of rejection. Every girl I liked, I would write them poems, I would m- go to a glassblower and have them blow a, a glass rose, and they'd be like, "Uh, thanks. Ew." And every single one, I would, like, shower them with praise and love. No- nobody really likes that at the start. I mean, there's a time and a place for that, but I was coming in with too much niceness, too much like, "Ah, I love you" (laughs) you know, right off the bat, and it was just constant rejection. Now, I had girlfriends, but they were always the ones that were like my buddies while I was going after the one that I really liked-

   14. CWChris Williamson17:41

       (laughs)

   15. AMAubrey Marcus17:41

       ... and there'd just be one. And they'd be like, "Hey, I like you," and I'm like, "Yeah, I guess I like you too."

   16. CWChris Williamson17:46

       Yeah, "I guess you're convenient as well." Yeah.

   17. AMAubrey Marcus17:48

       You know, like, "All right." Yeah. So, I mean, they were great, but it was never the one that I, like, really, really liked. And it just ... constant, just constant rejection. And so I was 21, and this was before anything started to turn, and, uh, and, and it was also frustrating 'cause I was a star athlete. You know, I was always, I was like ...... doing all of the things that I thought... Like, if you watch the movie Grease or something, like, it was like, "Fuck, I'm the, I'm the guy. Like, I'm f- captain of the team, you know, varsity three years. I'm crushing it and all of these... What's, what's the problem here? How come I'm constantly getting rejected?" So I go to, I go to this show in Vegas, and it's based on the Crazy Horse in Paris. It was called La Femme, and it was at the MGM Grand. And I'm 21 and I'm sipping on, uh, like, some scotch and, and I'm watching this by myself in, in Las Vegas. And I'm looking at these incredibly beautiful dancers, and it's like a burlesque show. And they're doing this whole burlesque show with this projection mapping and lights, and amazing show. And I just start, I just start crying and this, like... Tears start coming down my face, and I'm sipping my whiskey, and I'm just making this solemn vow with the universe. I'm like, "I will do whatever it takes to be the type of man that can ask one of these girls out and they would say yes. Whatever it fucking takes." And it was this vow to be, like, the very best human that I could possibly be in every way in, you know, from spiritual, to physical, to mental, to emotional, to financial, to, you know, my prowess at large, and I made this vow. Uh, but it was all, it was so that that mythical girl would say yes, (laughs) you know, ultimately. And so much of my entire life has been for that purpose. Like, everything, at least a little bit. Some of it is for the obvious, like, okay, I l- I like being physically fit 'cause I like to surf, I like to play basketball, I like to do all this, I like to, you know, build a business because I love the business and I love what I'm doing. So there's a very pure motivation, and then there was also this internal desire to make myself more appealing to the opposite sex, always, always. So I had, like, two engines motivating me. One was my service to the world, my enjoyment of life, and the other was like, "And whatever I do is going to make me more attractive so that I won't get rejected anymore." (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson20:16

       Double win.

   19. AMAubrey Marcus20:17

       Double win, right? So, but one of those engines, now that I've... And in polyamory it was the same. Both engines were firing because there was always, (clears throat) there was always the potential for another paramour, another partner. So I get married, monogamous, my dream girl. That engine powers down, the engine that I've had my whole life, which is, "Do more, be more awesome, and girls will like you." Power down. My wife loves me unconditionally. Like, there's nothing I need to do. I mean, I'm gonna do stuff anyways. I'm motivated. I have the other engine going. But that engine powered down, and there was a real vacuum. There was a real vacuum of like, "Whoa, I missed this." Like, I missed this drive that I had for trying to attract the opposite sex. I miss it. So what I've had to do is I've had to make the other engine more powerful. I've had to really focus on how much I love the world and how compassionate I feel for the people who are suffering. And there's been some advice from Tom Bilyeu recently that's really helped. Instead of making it abstract, like, "I love the world," which is really hard. The world is huge and complex, and the brain doesn't work that way. Just think of one person, you know? Like, "I love this one..." You can create it as a real person or an avatar. Like, "I love this one person who feels alone, trapped in their mind, can't get through these mazes and puzzles and can't open their heart. And if I can deliver this message to them with my own heart, maybe they can find that peace and they can find that bridge to their own love or their own higher self, and really just focusing on that." And so I've been in the process of really fueling and building this single engine and the engine of service, like, really being of service and trying to get that to be as powerful as my twin engines. And, uh, and that's been the, that's been the process.

   20. CWChris Williamson22:07

       But it happened at the same time, right? So you had the marriage, and within the space of a year, also the exit from On Nit.

   21. AMAubrey Marcus22:14

       Yep.

   22. CWChris Williamson22:15

       So, I mean, from an existential crisis standpoint, I think this is about as... This is like RX+++. This is the-

   23. AMAubrey Marcus22:24

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson22:24

       ... this is the super Navy SEALs, SEAL Team 6 version.

   25. AMAubrey Marcus22:28

       Yeah. This has been a, a massive year of transition, and I think there's... It's no accident that, you know, I've done ayahuasca 25 times in my life or so, and nine of them have come in the last seven months, right? (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson22:42

       (laughs)

   27. AMAubrey Marcus22:42

       Like, you know, I've been... (clears throat) So I've... This is by far the most I've reached to the, to the plant allies, and I'm actually hiring a coach now. I've never hired a coach. I've had a lot of mentors, but I'm like, "Fuck it. I need a coach." Like, I need someone who can, I can talk to every week and, and really, like, help me sort through because it's, it's very complex. The other complexity is, I feel like for most of my life the world was... It had its problems, but it was just kinda moving along. It was just kinda trucking along and things weren't very prescient. It wasn't, like, urgent. And I could write a book about whatever I wanted to write a book about, and people would benefit from it. I could put out stuff, and it wasn't... It was just important but it wasn't urgent. Now, with what I see going on in the world, I feel like it's, it's urgent. Like, there's an urgency. So there's been this, all of this change, all of this opportunity, and then this pressure of like, "Fuck."

   28. CWChris Williamson23:38

       The stakes have just been raised as well.

   29. AMAubrey Marcus23:40

       The stakes have been raised. We're out of... Again, I don't like war analogies, but it's like we were in peacetime and now we're, we're transitioning into wartime, a war for sovereignty and consciousness and freedom and love, and breaking these divisions that people have, which come from both sides, you know? One side calling the other side sheep. The other side telling them that they're the unclean, un-vaxxed, grandma killers. You know, like, whatever. And both sides losing the humanity and the respect and the reverence...... for each other, whether it's black and white, left and right. You know, either way, it's, it's this really kind of dangerous division that's happening in the world, in, in my perspective at least. So it's like, "Fuck, I gotta really step up now." So, it's all of these things, all of my transitions, and then the pressure coming in from the world that's been a, a cocktail of stress.

   30. CWChris Williamson24:35

       Man, I feel that too,

5. 24:36 – 33:59

   Developing Your Identity

   1. CWChris Williamson24:36

      uh, with the show, with the messages that I get. You know, even in the time that I've been doing it, which is three-and-a-half years, there's a difference. There's like a- there's a fervor, there's an intensity to some of the things that people say now. The desire for truth doesn't feel like an armchair philosophy-

   2. AMAubrey Marcus24:53

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson24:54

      ... luxury that people get to do as, on a Sunday afternoon. It, it feels like a necessity. It's like water in an oasis type thing. You know, people need-

   4. AMAubrey Marcus25:02

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:03

      ... guidance. It really does feel like that. And then the thanks also feels more existential. It feels serious. And, um, yeah, I think that you're right. I think that the stakes have been raised. And all of that together means you need to work out who the new version of you is. And I'm interested in what it means to let go of this old identity, because not only privately but publicly as well, sort of a lot of, for a period of time, what you were was wrapped up in the polyamory thing. It was a very public relationship or some of the relationships-

   6. AMAubrey Marcus25:35

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson25:35

      ... you've had in the past were very public, and letting go of that. You were the forefront of Onnit, you know, you were the guy that drove it forward on the Joe Rogan Experience and talking about it, and then the podcast and all the pre-rolls. You know, anybody goes back and listens to an old episode of the podcast, it's you talking about the company that is your company. All of this, and you think, "Okay, so who's the new identity and how do I let go of the old one?" Have you had any thoughts about that?

   8. AMAubrey Marcus26:00

      (clears throat) I really wanna let go of the identity entirely and really touch it lightly. You know, I mean, I think Ram Dass is such a great guide for our time, you know, really one of the, the modern spiritual masters. And, you know, a big principle of his was becoming nobody, right? Just becoming the force of life itself. And this is something that Don Miguel Ruiz talks about as well, like, his ideal is to just remain faceless, just be the energy and the emanation of life itself. Identity is, is useful, but it's also a trap. It's like a useful prison. And the Aubrey, the Aubrey, man, the Aubrey's fucking... it's tough. (laughs) It's tough to be the Aubrey. The Aubrey puts so much pressure on himself. The Aubrey's like... and it has so much projection coming from the world about what the Aubrey is, and, uh, I don't like being the Aubrey that much. I mean, it's great, but I, I like being life, I like being in the present moment. I can wear the Aubrey suit. I love the Aubrey suit. It's a wonderful suit. You know, it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful appearance of God in drag, right? Like, I get it. I'm super happy with it and I've cultivated it and it has a lot of advantages. But nonetheless, it's still not fun for me to be Aubrey. It's a lot more fun for me to be life expressed through the Aubrey suit.

   9. CWChris Williamson27:28

      Has that been released a little bit now that you don't have the excuse that you're the figurehead that's driving forward and trailblazing this company and growth and progression and more podcast plays 'cause it drives more growth and more progression?

   10. AMAubrey Marcus27:42

       I mean, I wish, I wish. But the... it's just shifted. It's just chameleoned. You know, it's like it just adopts new things, so-

   11. CWChris Williamson27:48

       Finds, it finds something new that it's going to pursue.

   12. AMAubrey Marcus27:51

       Right. So instead of being the, instead of being the head, the S- the CEO of Onnit, it's now the founder of Onnit with the amazing exit, you know?

   13. CWChris Williamson27:59

       (laughs)

   14. AMAubrey Marcus27:59

       Like, whatever, it's the same fucking thing.

   15. CWChris Williamson28:01

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. AMAubrey Marcus28:01

       It's just a different hue of the same costume.

   17. CWChris Williamson28:04

       Yeah.

   18. AMAubrey Marcus28:04

       And, you know, so in these medicine journeys, which has really been a, a deep part of my path for 22 years with the plant medicines, I escape the bounds of the Aubrey-ness and I become life. And I feel like, "Fuck." My heart opens, and I just feel in concert, in connection with all of life. It's not always comfortable. It's like breaking through all of these constricting, you know, s- the cells, like jail cells, like bursting through, like, and becoming life itself. And that helps. It helps, like, loosen the grip of, of what that Aubrey is, and, um, so that's been a big part of, of the path is just like, "Okay, can I wear it lightly instead of having it sucked in and calcified and become like armor, like bone and callous, like, wear it like a nice cloak?" You know, like, that's how I wanna wear my identity, because it doesn't really matter ex- externally. I have to really shift my own internal identity, like, shift my identity to being the emanation of life itself, like, really just say, like, "I am life." And with that comes this amazing state of inner being, because we're all life itself, you know? Like, you or me living a different life, you are life itself as well and I am life itself, so we're inexorably on the same team. And that message, if I can... and I've really realized, like, I have to... if I live that and if I can be that, my message to everybody, which is ultimately that, trying to tell people on both sides of the spectrum here, like, "Listen, your life, their life, we are all on the same team. Like, stop." (laughs) You know? Like, "Stop fighting." It's all one, one force of life. And the goal is to play the infinite game. Like, can we keep this game board where life can exist alive and thriving and free as long as we possibly can? Like, that's what we should all be dedicated on team life for team infinite game.

   19. CWChris Williamson30:12

       It feels to me like, when we're talking about sort of energy internally versus persona, the external representation that we give the world...... the persona kind of, it iterates, right? It- it- it does calcify, kind of like a- a crab's shell, and it's not as fluid as what happens inside. The person that you are is constantly changing. The person that w- you were yesterday and today is just slightly different. But the persona, it- it cracks and peels in big batches, right? It's completely flat for a very long time, and then something happens, and the pressure inside gets to the point where you go, "I- I can't continue to wear this persona anymore. The what is happening inside is no longer congruent with what I'm showing the world outside." And yeah, I think that holding the persona lightly, that trying to seek validation from what you're putting forth into the world as opposed to who you are. One of my buddies, um, was in Australia not long ago, and he told me... He's a very successful guy on social media, and he has a huge following. Uh, it's James Smith. People that are listening will know who it is, this big fitness guy. And he said he went onto a rock and he asked himself, w- on some psilocybin, and asked himself two questions. And he said, "Do people love you for who you are or for what you do?" There's a lot of people that love him for what he does. But he doesn't know how many people love him for who he is. And that question seems to be the bifurcation, the dichotomy between essence and persona. Like, outwards representation of you that is kind of static and unchanging until you decide to crack it and then shed it and then go again. And then the inner version. And yeah, the more lights that you can wear that, the- the fewer layers that your persona can consist of. I think that's probably a good way to go.

   20. AMAubrey Marcus31:56

       And that question, the first person you ask that question to is yourself. Do I love myself for who I am or do I love myself for what I do? Right? Like, you're expecting other people to do something that you haven't done most of the time, right? You're like, "I wish they would just love me for who I am. Meanwhile, I'm gonna love myself for what I do." (laughs) You know? Like, it- it- it can't work that way. And I'm- I'm in the same boat. You know? Like I'm- I'm so much love myself for what I do. Like I do something that I feel is important and I'm like, "Nice fucking job. I love you." You know? Meanwhile, I'm not. I'm, you know, I'm in a different place. I'm the same essence of life, but I'm like, "What are you doing? Fucking haven't done anything in the last week. All you've done is blah, blah, blah. It's not enough." So really focusing that question internally and learning to love yourself for who you really are. There's a great affirmation that Paul Selig, who's one of my spiritual teachers I've had on the podcast a few times, he has you say, "I know who I am in truth. I know what I am in truth. I know how I serve in truth. I am here. I am here. I am here." When you say that and it's this activation of like, oh, okay. In truth I know who I am. I know what I am. I know how I serve. And I am here. And it's this claiming, this I am claiming like, no, I am here as the essence of life, as the monad, the divine spark. Like... and really practicing that and loving that because that is the thing that doesn't change. It can't be som- no one can shoot an arrow at that. No one can cast aspersions at that. You can't cancel God. You just can't (laughs) , you know? Good luck. Like that's the, that's the reality and that's the, that's the place of ultimate safety. That's the rock. That's the castle. That's the impenetrable place because nothing can touch that thing. And so if you can learn to love that, then you can move through life from a place of love.

6. 33:59 – 44:14

   Unfair Self-Judgment

   1. CWChris Williamson33:59

      What I like about that is thinking about the fact that how self-berating we can be when we don't feel like we've achieved something, the lack of love that we have for ourselves. If we've done the evening on the couch and haven't taken the laptop to answer the emails as they've come in or-

   2. AMAubrey Marcus34:17

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson34:17

      ... you know, decided to take a long weekend off and didn't do work or whatever it might be. But it's so, it's so fickle. It's like we're on a knife edge. Our view of ourselves and the love that we have for ourselves is so... it- it shouldn't be that fragile. It shouldn't be that your actions within the last 36 hours-

   4. AMAubrey Marcus34:36

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson34:37

      ... significantly determine your judgment of your own self-worth. Like that shouldn't be the case and yet it absolutely 100% is for me.

   6. AMAubrey Marcus34:46

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson34:46

      Absolutely is. If I've had... if the last podcast that I've done is awesome, I'm patting myself on the back, I feel like I'm on top of the world, I'm really confident, I'm going into the next one, I'm gonna get it. This is the right path. This is what I'm doing. I'm really improving. And then if the last one that I did was poor, it's fuck. Like self-doubt creeps in. Imposter syndrome keeps in. Lack of confidence creeps in. And you think, "This is not sustainable." It isn't sustainable for my self-worth to be hinged on the last success or failure that I decided. The last time that I stepped onto the pitch, did I win, lose or draw? And then that determines the way that I'm going to feel for the remainder of whatever. And this has been the same throughout... i- it doesn't matter what level you get to or what game you're playing with this. Whether it was, for me the club promotion game. If the last event that we ran was huge and sold out and everybody loved it and there was no problems, then brilliant, I felt great. But if the last event that we did was a little bit under budget and we didn't make the money that we wanted and I got complaints and there was bad reviews on Facebook in 2013 when Facebook was a big deal, I'd feel crap.

   8. AMAubrey Marcus35:49

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson35:50

      So this is just, it's the same game ported onto a new console now. You know? Or it's the same set of rules but just in a different game. And um-

   10. AMAubrey Marcus35:59

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:00

       ... it can't be like that. It doesn't scale. It is not a replicable, healthy, holistic way to exist.

   12. AMAubrey Marcus36:08

       And you know, I think one of the reasons we change is we suffer until we get sick of suffering. This is a form of suffering. Like eventually we just get so fed up with doing this. Like, "I fucking can't handle this anymore. I'm done with it."... and then you have to forge the new way. It's, it's hard to do it just out of inspiration. Like, somebody listening right now who's young and, you know, been in this a little while and has, and hasn't really tortured themselves that much yet. (laughs) You know, they'd be like, "That's a cool idea." But for, for us that are just battle weary and haggard, like-

   13. CWChris Williamson36:42

       (laughs)

   14. AMAubrey Marcus36:42

       ... "Fuck, how many times am I gonna do this? How many times am I gonna feel like shit? I'm fucking tired of it." You know, like, we suffer until we get sick of suffering. And, uh, but you're absolutely right. They have that saying, you know, "You're only as good as your last game." And I think they're referencing what the fans are thinking of you, right? And it's true, like, you have a, an athlete has a shitty game and all of a sudden all the pundits are like, "What's wrong with him? Blah, blah, blah. Did he do this? What is, what's going on?" And then they, then they play well, and they're like, "He's back."

   15. CWChris Williamson37:13

       (laughs)

   16. AMAubrey Marcus37:14

       (laughs) You know, we love him again.

   17. CWChris Williamson37:15

       What do you mean?

   18. AMAubrey Marcus37:16

       How fuck- yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson37:16

       What a fucking broad of you.

   20. AMAubrey Marcus37:19

       (laughs) Yeah. How fucked is that? But we do it to ourselves, just like you said.

   21. CWChris Williamson37:22

       Yeah.

   22. AMAubrey Marcus37:22

       Like, this is, this idea that we project onto what the fans do, which they do, we do the same thing.

   23. CWChris Williamson37:27

       You are the shitty pundit.

   24. AMAubrey Marcus37:28

       You know, so of course I'm gonna do that.

   25. CWChris Williamson37:28

       You are your own shitty pundit, yes.

   26. AMAubrey Marcus37:31

       Yeah, exactly. (laughs) Exactly.

   27. CWChris Williamson37:35

       Fuck, man. Yeah, I, um... That's a really interesting insight. It really is. I think, uh, having a more robust, stable foundation would do a lot of people a lot of good, because what you end up doing is you end up performing for the critic.

   28. AMAubrey Marcus37:53

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson37:53

       You end up proving the critic wrong as opposed to trying to do the thing that you're supposed to be doing, and you end up having these perverse incentives. The incentive that the person trying to disprove the critic wrong does is, "Well, I'll, I'll work harder," or, "I'll do, I'll do more," or, "I'll go bigger," or whatever. Whatever I think the fucking tonic to this poison is, I'm gonna keep on, I'm gonna keep on drinking it. And you're like, no, no, no, no, you've now turned the tonic into a poison as well. Like, you have-

   30. AMAubrey Marcus38:21

       Mm-hmm.
7. 44:14 – 49:52

   Plant Medicine

   1. AMAubrey Marcus44:14

      constantly.

   2. CWChris Williamson44:15

      How do people know if they're ready for plant medicine? Let's say that there's someone who's listening who is familiar with breath work practices and meditation, and they've done level zero, as Dan Engel would say, right? They've done the, they've done the buy-in. Um, what would be some of the signs that people should be looking out for to suggest, "Well, maybe this is the sort of thing that would be assisted by some plant medicine?"

   3. AMAubrey Marcus44:46

      Well, the traditional, the traditional answer is that there's a calling. There's just a feeling that you have. There's a part of you that is just irresistibly attracted to these medicines. But it's really hard to describe it further than that. You know, then you get the question, "Well, what is the calling? How do I know if I have a calling?" Because simultaneously, you're gonna have resistance, so there's gonna be an attraction and then there's gonna be resistance. What's, what's that? Is that a sign that you shouldn't do it because your body's telling you no? Maybe. Or is it just the natural resistance and you really want to say yes? I think the, the best way is to just have courage to continue, to, to continue to lightly step forward that way. I mean, you can just dump, jump in the deep end and book a, book an ayahuasca trip with the, with the dragon or, you know, go do some big ceremony. I highly recommend if you're gonna do anything big, do it with the best of the best. Like, really find a world-class, um, sitter, shaman, practitioner that you can sit with. But otherwise, just kind of creep your way, creep your way towards it. And I think, again, escalating those breath work practices. There's a guy, um, I think the breast- best breath work practitioner that I know of is a guy named Lukis Mac, L-U-K-I-S M-A-C, and I sat with him and did some breath work. There's ways to take breath work really deep, like really deep, you know, where it's beyond level zero. You're going into the real, real levels. So, like, take that really far, and then start creeping into different, different plant allies. Ketamine is an interesting one to start with, you know, if you get ... It's now legal in the US. It's a good way to just kind of feel the bounds of selfhood dissolve and start to experience the void in a somatic way, and it's very comfortable typically. Now, it's not ... So that's like an interesting way to creep in, like 100 milligram fast dissolve of ketamine. Like, "All right, let's just, like, creep into this." And one of the best combinations of medicine, actually I think it's my current favorite combination of plant, plant medicine or psychedelics, is ketamine and cannabis together. Both legal in most places in the US, but that stack, it feels like it brings the body into the void where ketamine is taking you, and it's a really, really interesting experience. It doesn't last too long, you just ha- ... And don't, and don't overdo it. You know, have, like, one puff of flower, 100 milligrams, some great music. You know, John Hopkins has a new album that's coming out called Music for Psychedelic Therapy. It's fucking stunning. East Forest has some amazing music. Put on some good music, you know, get a blindfold, get a mindfold. You want a mindfold blindfold, it's one where you can open your eyes and it's still completely black. So get one of those, get some good headphones, and just, like, ease into it if you're gonna do it on your own. And that's a g- good way to start. And then you can also do a psilocybin journey with somebody who's had some experience, like if you know a, you know, someone like you or I (laughs) , you know, who's been in this a lot, and like ... But start small. You know, like don't fucking, don't try to burn the house down right out of the, right out of the gate. Just kind of like minimum effective dose. Get comfortable with it. And I think that would be the way to go, and if you feel called for more, like, "All right, I'm into this," like, "I'm fucking into this," just don't be in a hurry, you know, I guess would be my advice, is just kind of tiptoe your way through. Uh, you have your whole life, you know? You don't need to, you don't need to rush into anything. And if you do feel like just diving in 'cause you just can't handle it anymore, um, really go for the best of the best.

   4. CWChris Williamson48:27

      You like, is it Soltra that's one of the places that you tend to go to?

   5. AMAubrey Marcus48:32

      Soltra, I think, is practicing at the, at the highest level. Uh, I actually flew in my very first shaman, uh, uh, for a private retreat. His name is Maestro Orlando. Uh, you can check him out in Peru. He's ... It's actually, I built a redirect for his site, it's maestroorlando.com. His nickname is El Dragon de la Selva, the drag- the dragon of the jungle. And he's...... he's the best shaman, I think, that I- I mean, he's the best shaman I've ever, I've ever encountered. I mean, I've been with some amazing shamans. Maestro Alberto is also an absolute wizard, you know, like incredible, and he has a new center that's opening up as well. But, um, for me, working with, uh, Maestro Orlando is, is just the best. However, Saltara has amazing Shipibo healers, and the Shipibo style is, it's a unique style, it's a very traditional, you know, ancient style that's been brought forward, and it's, it's all so stunning. So... But I really trust Saltara. I really do. And I've sat with the Shipibo healers there, um, M-Maestra Marina and Maestro Teo were the people that I work with there. Beautiful ceremonies. Like really beautiful, impeccable ceremonies. And great facilitators, great facilities at Saltara. I highly, highly recommend, uh, for anybody who's looking, like check out Saltara. I think they're, I think they're the best in the game right now.

8. 49:52 – 1:10:48

   Polyamory to Monogamy

   1. AMAubrey Marcus49:52

   2. CWChris Williamson49:52

      I love it, man. Looking back at your period of non-monogamy, now as a happily married man, woman of your dreams, does that reframe that sort of experience? Do you have a different sort of view of non-monogamy generally now? Was it just part of a journey? Where's your head space at with that?

   3. AMAubrey Marcus50:15

      (laughs) It's, uh, it was definitely part of a journey. It was definitely part of like a deep learning practice. I mean, we all have jealousy to a certain extent, you know, it's just inherent. And if you think you're not jealous, I dare you to get into a non-monogamous relationship-

   4. CWChris Williamson50:31

      (laughs)

   5. AMAubrey Marcus50:31

      ... where your sweetheart is getting fucked by somebody else, and you're home alone and just imagining what's happening. Like if you can do that, like fucking get in Ashram somewhere, like (laughs) I don't, I don't know. I don't know what it takes to be able to handle that. But, you know, so you really confront the dragon. You confront the dragon of your own jealousy. Like the, the thought of me being jealous in my current relationship now with Vilanna is absolutely preposterous, because I've lived (laughs) the worst case scenario, you know? Like I've lived the, I've lived the absolute nightmare of, of, you know, jealousy so many times th- that I'm liberated from that. It's just not in the, it's not in the spectrum of possibility of what I would actually worry about. And that's the, that's one of the beautiful things that you'll get from it. And that's what happens when you go headfirst into your deepest fears or your deepest challenges. It's like the ayahuasca of jealousy, right? You're fucking, you're in it. So that's beautiful. It's also beautiful that, I mean, I got to experience so many amazing people, and actually I was only able to meet my wife and become friends because I had the freedom of a non-monogamous container. Like if I wanted to go out on a friend date or whatever with Vilanna, like there was never any question, because I had multiple other girlfriends. So it's not like there was an issue, you know? Like I was really free. So I think it's a, it's a great path to overcome jealousy. It's also a great path if you're not quite sure. I loved Whitney a lot, but it, something wasn't just quite right. You know, she's amazing. Um, Whitney's fucking incredible. But it wasn't quite right for either of us, and we both actually subsequently after, since splitting, you know, we're still friends, but both of us have really f- come into our own in a, in a beautiful way. She's a country singer now, she, you know, and she's like using her voice and she's recording songs and the songs are amazing. And I've always, I always wanted her to sing, but in our relationship, it just, that never emerged. Like there was ways in which we weren't clicking for each other's future. So the fact that we chose non-monogamy was perfect, 'cause we were both free to explore different people and learn different things. And it was, it was beautiful. I got to meet some amazing, amazing humans, you know, Stefani and Savannah and Maya and so many like awesome people that I'm just so grateful that I got a chance to experience. So that, you know, there was, those are the benefits of it. We also made a lot of mistakes. Um, one of the things that non-monogamy requires is perfect, blisteringly honest communication. Like any little way in which you're withholding the truth becomes, explodes into a nightmare. So it's also great for practicing your honesty. Like you really have to, if you have feelings for somebody or you think something, you feel something, you have to express it, because the only safe place you have is the truth. And as soon as the truth gets a little twisted, everything is in question and nothing makes sense and you're just lost. So it's, it's kind of a forging process. Can I see it as a viable long-term solution? I can, but it requires the very best. It requires a group of people who are at their, operating at their very best in, in heart, in mind, in spirit. And I think it can be a really beautiful, sacred, non-monogamous union. Uh, I was never, I was never quite good enough, to be honest. I was never able to really get there. And I tried, oh, I tried hard. Eight years, you know, and I gave it everything I got. I was not the type of person that was capable of holding that indefinitely. I never transcended my jealousy. I never got to the place of compersion, which is getting pleasure from someone else's pleasure sustainably. You know, like if Whitney's having a orgasmic, blissful experience with a, with another lover, I was never like, "Oh, babe."

   6. CWChris Williamson54:44

      (laughs)

   7. AMAubrey Marcus54:44

      "I'm so happy for your orgasmic, blissful experience. Oh, are those hand print bruises on your ass? It must have been passionate."... passionate when he was spanking you that hard. I, I love that you were that into it with him." No. (laughs) I was never like that. I wanted to vomit. You know, (laughs) I just, I couldn't do it, you know, so ... But that doesn't mean that it's not possible to do. You know, it doesn't mean that my failures mean that the, the whole construct is flawed, because I think the construct is beautiful. But for me, it was just too hard.

   8. CWChris Williamson55:21

      I think there's a definitely a difference in my mind between using it as a tool to prepare yourself for a potential future relationship, and attaching your colors to the mast pole and saying, "Right, this is me for the remainder of time."

   9. AMAubrey Marcus55:36

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson55:37

       In my experience, spending a lot of time around a lot of people, you need to be an incredibly unique individual for that to be the right path for you to go down long term. I mean, even for you to go down it for two weeks, you need to be a pretty unique individual. Um, but for you to be able to look back after potentially an entire lifetime of non-monogamy and say, "Yes, that was the right choice," I think that you have to be very, very ... a, a significant outlier. And I also think that there's probably far fewer people than actually think it. And what's reassuring to hear, what's kind of nice to hear from yourself is that, look, like, this is something that you can perhaps consider or try or look at, but it's not, it's not for life. You're not married to the non-monogamy for life.

   11. AMAubrey Marcus56:26

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson56:26

       You know?

   13. AMAubrey Marcus56:27

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson56:27

       If you, if you want to bail out, if you want to make an exit plan at some point, you can do that. And yeah, one thing that I had in my mind, is it ... So you've mentioned about the fact that the jealousy was something, w- one of the sort of key emotions that you struggled with, and that this was kind of like exposure therapy for jealousy-

   15. AMAubrey Marcus56:48

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson56:48

       ... turned up to a million. Is there any part of you that has echoes of that? Because that can be so traumatic to the point where it starts to embed a habit, it starts to embed a routine, that the jealousy actually starts to rear its head, and it's got all of this foundation and this power and this velocity behind it, because look at all of the things that you've done in the past. Do you ever notice that? Do you ever feel that?

   17. AMAubrey Marcus57:19

       You know, the, the thing about it is, the jealousy ... I think jealousy becomes really toxic when it's imagined, right? Like, imagined jealousy. You, you're just thinking and you're, you're waiting for this dishonest way in which someone-

   18. CWChris Williamson57:34

       Oh.

   19. AMAubrey Marcus57:34

       ... is betraying you-

   20. CWChris Williamson57:35

       Is that because-

   21. AMAubrey Marcus57:35

       ... and, and you didn't know-

   22. CWChris Williamson57:36

       Do you think that's because of the shame or the guilt around the fact that you know that it's, it's, there's part of it that's not true, and that there's almost a little bit of it that's making it your fault if the jealousy doesn't actually exist? If there's no real reason for it to be there, the shame because it's you that's causing it?

   23. AMAubrey Marcus57:52

       Yeah, I think that, I think that's a factor. I, I also think that that's like, that's the difference between polyamory and just a regular relationship where you're jealous. A lot of times in a regular relationship where you're jealous, you're just creating all kinds of fantasies of things that are not real, and so you pattern this fantastical creation of these jealous circumstances. You know, this is what you see all the time. "Were you looking at that girl?" Or, uh, "Do you have fe- what, what, what are you, what are you doing with that trainer?" You know, like, "Do you like him?" You're like, blah, blah, blah. And like, "No, he's just my friend." Like, blah, blah, blah, as you're creating all these fantasies. The, the beauty of what I experienced was it was all real. Like, she was really having blissful orgasmic experiences with men for real, and would tell me about it, as, you know, 'cause we were honest, and then she was really falling in love (laughs) with her boyfriend, Ricky, and really, like, all of these things were really happening. So, uh, while it was hard, it was honest, and I think anything that's hard and honest is productive and not traumatic. It's just productive, right? It's just, it's kind of like going into a sweat lodge. Like I don't know if you've ever done like a really intense temazcal or sweat lodge.

   24. CWChris Williamson59:07

       No.

   25. AMAubrey Marcus59:08

       Pitch dark, you know, you're in there three hours, no water. It's just prayers and heat, and they're pouring water on these steaming rocks, and you feel at certain points if it's a, if it's a hard lodge, like, "I don't know how I'm gonna survive this." Like, "I don't know, this is so hot, and I'm so thirsty, and I'm, and I'm s- like, just overwhelmed with this." And if you're with a real master, they know where the edge is and they never, obviously, push it. And of course, you could wave the white flag and be like, "I'm not ..." and they always make allowances for that, 'cause it can be dangerous. But ultimately, that's a super challenging experience, but you never leave that traumatic. You leave that exhilarated because it's honest. You chose it, you know what it is, and you endure it, and you come out and you're, you're like rebirthed from the fire. And that's kind of the way that it is with polyamory. It's like, it's real. It's like a sweat lodge. Like you know, you know when your partner is with that other person. You know, and you know what's h- you know what's happening, and what's happening is worse than you hope, but not as bad as you fear.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:00:10

       (laughs)

   27. AMAubrey Marcus1:00:10

       Right? Always. Always. That's like the universal rule. It's worse than you hope and not as bad as you fear. But if that's where it's gonna ... that's what's happening. And, and so it's, it's intense, but it's not traumatic. What's traumatic is, is like discovering an adultery, you know? Like my, my wife, my wife had a lot of trauma. Not, she was not, she was monogamous, but on two of her birthdays, she found out that her boyfriend had impregnated another woman that he was seeing on the side. Twice.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:00:41

       The same, the same boyfriend?

   29. AMAubrey Marcus1:00:43

       Two different. Two different ones.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:00:44

       Two different boyfriends, both on her birthday?
9. 1:10:48 – 1:12:58

   Where to Find Aubrey

   1. CWChris Williamson1:10:48

      ladies and gentlemen. You've got a new book coming out. What's happening with that?

   2. AMAubrey Marcus1:10:52

      Hypothetically, I got a new book. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson1:10:54

      Well, you've already up and writing it.

   4. AMAubrey Marcus1:10:54

      It's coming out.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:10:55

      If you write the fucking thing, then you'll be able to release it next year, right?

   6. AMAubrey Marcus1:10:58

      (laughs) Yeah. It is- it's a really important book. It's called Master Your Mind, Master Your Life. I've pushed off the release multiple times, and I'm about to push it off again, just 'cause it's a very complicated book, because trying to separate the mind from anything else is an impossible task. There's the mind, and then there's the body. Well, really? Well, the body informs the mind in such an inexorable way, and the mind informs the body. Can you really call them separate things, or are they the same thing? Is it just a different density of mind? So you start going deeper, and it's deeper, like, "Oh, and the mind and the spirit." Really? Mind and the spirit? Like, where is the fucking line that you draw there? It's not. Everything is blurred. So ultimately coming to this idea that it's ... You can either look at ... You can really look at the mind like everything is mind. There's just different condensations and densities of wh- how the mind operates. So really unpacking that and then finding the ways to navigate with all of the different articulations of mind. So I've really been in the work, you know, really making sure that I get this thing right. Uh, there was a lot of hubris when I, when I, you know, basically proposed the book Master Your Mind, Master Your Life.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:12:10

      I'll write- I'll write a book around the most complex organ that we've got in the entire universe. (laughs)

   8. AMAubrey Marcus1:12:14

      (laughs) Exactly. Exactly. So I'm- I'm in it, just, uh ... That's all I can say, is I'm fucking in it. And when it's done, it's gonna be awesome, but I'm not gonna- I'm not gonna put something out until I know, and I know, that it's the- it's the right thing to put out.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:12:29

      Cool. Aubrey Marcus, podcasts on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever else people listen, and @AubreyMarcus on Instagram. Brother, thank you.

   10. AMAubrey Marcus1:12:38

       Thank you, brother. This was amazing.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:12:40

       Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:12:59