Surviving 14 Years In Guantanamo Bay - Mohamedou Ould Slahi | Modern Wisdom Podcast 322

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... then someone start…

   1. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi0:00

      ... then someone start to touch me, and then manhandle me, like touching me everywhere, and then they start to cut open my clothes with scissors, stripped me naked completely, except for my blindfold and my, uh, earplugs. He start to put me in diapers. And then it dawned on me that I was not going home, I was going to prison.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:24

      What does it feel like to have a movie made about your life?

   3. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi0:30

      It's, it's really, like, so, like, amazing and, uh, I still, I'm still digesting because this is not in my wildest dream. I didn't dream I would have, like, a movie, you know, about me. I mean, how many people have a movie about their lives, you know? I don't know too many people, you know? I don't know anyone in person, you know, are in my surrounding. And it's just a very big blessing to have your story told on the big screen and to reach this big audience, especially in our world now.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:12

      And it's not just any movie, right? It's Benedict Cumberbatch and Tamir Rahim and Jodie Foster, and then you were contributing to the set design and the production and all sorts. This is A level, right? A-list stuff.

   5. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:26

      Absolutely. And, uh, I mean, Kevin also, Kevin won Oscars before. And, uh, yes, uh, I was involved. Uh, I mean, I didn't push myself on anyone. They just kept calling me and asking me questions and I just kept, like, answering them. And yeah, like you said, set also, like, m- I also coached Tahar Rahim on the accent and so on and so forth. It was, it was a lot of fun and pain at the same time.

   6. CWChris Williamson2:04

      How accurate would you say the movie is to what happened?

   7. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi2:11

      I mean, what we see in the movie is pretty accurate. Uh, you know, except, like, 'cause you cannot put on screen, like, the first 70 days of sleeplessness. You cannot put that on a screen because you just need an actor who stays sleep w- w- without sleep for 70 days, consecutive days. And that's very painful.

   8. CWChris Williamson2:34

      Take us through your story then. Why has a Mauritanian man had a movie made about his life?

   9. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi2:42

      Uh, so this starts with very innocent phone call. It was, like, in late '98 or early '99. I don't remember, you know, because I only knew about the call years later. So when my cousin called me, and actually it was, like, very innocent call. He asked me to wire some money to his father who was very sick in Mauritania, and then I lived in Germany. It was very easy for me. And of course, I said, "Yeah, of course, I will do that. No problem." And, uh, but there was a problem with the call. So the call was made from the, uh, f- from a phone that belonged to UBL, and my cousin was, uh, a friend of UBL. I mean, they found years later that he was not involved in the, uh, uh, atrocious attack against, uh, the United State on 9/11, but still, back then, this was before 9/11. And everything I did after that was interpreted as a m- as a vile act against the United States of America. Everything I said was interpreted in that way, that I was, quote unquote, "a bad guy." And unbeknownst to me, I was, you know, subject to so many investigations that I didn't know about. And then all the investigation done in Germany and in Canada, they found out that there was no evidence I did really something. And then I was so scared when our imam, that is our priest in the mosque, when he told me that the German police, some kind of police, like, very high level police, you know, like, they came to me and they showed him my picture and then he laughed. He said, "What do you want to know about this guy?" They said, "Yeah, we have some bad report that he is a, he's a bad guy." He was laughing. He said, "No, no, no, I know him in person. He's a very good guy. He wouldn't hurt a fly." They said, "That's what we think too, but there is a country, a country that think that he's a bad..." He told me that and I just, I just panicked. I said, "I cannot stay in this country," so. And I had already my, uh, my, uh, landed immigrant status in Canada and I moved. I said, when I move to Canada, fresh start, no one knows me, nothing. I would, you know, finish college, find job. Not f- I already finished college, but I want to study, like, PhD and that's it. That's what I did. And I was, it was so dumb because I didn't know that the intelligence, you know, agencies were so, like, connected and Canada was very close to the United States. So going there just proved the point of the United States that I was a bad guy. I was coming to Canada to do that. And as luck had it-... I ... One month after my arrival, about one month, a guy decided to cross the border by the name of Ahmed Rassam and kill innocent people. His name is Ahmed Rassam. And he was go- he- they s- they said, uh, they know that he went to the same mosque I did. And this all, like, pointed toward my person, you know? And then, I don't know whether you saw this movie, very old movie called A Man with One Red Shoe by, uh, by, uh, um ... What's his name again? The guy, you know, Cast Away.

   10. CWChris Williamson6:44

       Tom Hanks.

   11. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi6:45

       So, yeah. Tom Hanks. So, he, he was, you know, he, he was, like, suspected of being a Russian agent, and then everything was- he was doing was interpreted that way, and it was very funny. (sniffs) So, and then Canadian came to my house, tried, tried to find out what was the deal. They couldn't find anything but U.S. said, "This guy is too smart. He doesn't leave any trail. We need to lure him to a place where there is no law, no rules, no gloves, and then we can get our way with him." Then they called my country, the intelligence of my country, they told them, "How can we get him back to Mauritania?" And then they went to my family, to my mother, they said, "You should call him back. Your son is in big trouble, and we need- he needs to come back so we clear his name." She called me and she said she was sick. That was January of 2000. And I just start, like, you know, making arrangement. I bought my ticket, everything. And I had a feeling, you know, I would be very exposed, but, you know ... I think we are driven a lot by emotions, you know. Like, I tell you an example, because I think I'm a very, like, reasonable person. I'm a person of reason, you know. I believe in science, everything. Even though, like, I am a religious person at the same time, kind of, you know. But sometime emotion- emotions overwhelm me. And the other day, like, several weeks ago, they called me, they said, "Your sister has COVID-19." And then I said, "COVID-19?" And then I s- I said, "I want to visit her." The doctor said, "You cannot visit her." So, this is, like, stupid. And then ... Because it's so dangerous, and- and then I went, and then I brought some, like, uh, fruits, everything, and I went anyway to visit my sister. And then in- i- midways, I was, like, crying in my, in my heart, saying, "This is my sister. What, what use of me being so healthy if my sister is so sick?" And this is so, like, so like, emotional and kind of stupid, too. But I, like, willingly risk this very dangerous, like, sickness, to see my sister and to be beside her and show her, like, the support, you know. Of course, I took precautions, put the mask, everything, and, uh ... Uh, but, but I'm just showing you that I went, you know? And I know there was a risk, but this w- was my mother who called me to say she is sick. Then I was picked up in Dakar. I was interrogated for five days. Senegalese said, "It is no evidence against this guy. We cannot hold him. So, you need ..." I said, "I'm going back to Canada." I knew I'm going to be screwed really bad, so I said, "I'm going back to Canada." The U.S. said, "No, you cannot go back to Canada," and they forced me into a plane. So now, Senegal is, like, not ... So, it was like more cooperating with them. They said, "You are not going back to Canada," but they took my passport so they put me on a special plane (sniffs) and then sent me to Mauritania. I was interrogated for about one month in all, and then Mauritanian came back to us and, "There is no evidence against this guy. So, he- what should we do?" And then they said, "Release him, but he cannot leave the country." So, later they took my passport, my papers, and I said, "You know what? I'm just going to not survive." Because we have- we cling to life so much, you know? Like, no matter, like, if you get abused, you still want to live. If you get, like... I just, you know ... We just try to use our resources, and I was, like, highly educated, and I found a job. And I said, you know, "Maybe one day, they will find, find out I didn't do anything to them and they will let go of me." You know? And I was, like, working long hours, you know, and barely making the ends meet. You know, this was like late 2000, and it- the, uh- there was this, like, bubble burst, I think, from IT, and, uh, and we just- we didn't do well. The company, you know, went down, everything, and I went to another company (sniffs) . And 9/11 happened. You know, 9/11 happened. That was really, really bad time. And I was kidnapped. I was put in a plane by special team, some of whom Jordanians. I know that because they spoke to me.... and then some were in masks, two were in mask. I couldn't know who they were. So ... And this was with the o- uh, uh, collaboration and conspiracy of my own government in violation of the Constitution that foresees that no citizen can be overhanded to another country, not to mention innocent citizens. Uh, at least, s- there is no, like, evidence against them, uh, I mean, to cut them some slacks. And, yeah. And I saw death so many times. I remember the plane landing in Cyprus. I heard it in over the phone (sniffs) and I was wishing and hoping some custom agent or something board the plane and see me, and I would say, "I am, I am guilty, I am guilty. Please arrest me, arrest me." (laughs) you know? And, but no one, no one shows up, you know. I, I felt death so many times, and I wasn't, uh ... You know, I am afraid of death. But I am more afraid of dying itself, you know? You know, you know, like believing in afterlife and the possibility that your afterlife wouldn't be as good, it's a very, like, scary thing. But dying because I saw my, my, my ... the uncle of my mother, I don't know that, what that called in English, you know. And I saw him die, you know, he's ve- well, he's very strong man, he was a teacher, and I saw him withering away, getting weaker and weaker, and he couldn't take care of his own business. He was a very proud man. And then he start to smell because he couldn't take shower, you know? And I saw that as a child in this life. It was so ... I will never forget that. So and, I, I, I, I was like picturing how much torture it's going to take for me to pass away, to die. And the w- then I stayed in Jordan for eight month. Horrific month, you know? Like, I wasn't, like, beaten, I was beaten only two times, but, like, just living in the fear and the prospect of torture day in, day out, for eight month. It's really very heavy, you know? M- and the problem, like, when they start torture sessions, I could hear people like crying, and so on. And then, it was just like someone piercing your ears. Then I start to, uh, to, uh,

2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Section 2

   1. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi15:00

      plug my ears with my, you know, with my hands, but I hear louder when I plug my ears because the brain create these sounds, horrific sounds. And I cannot describe to you living in pain, how painful it is, you know? And there is no end. And there is no light. You know, I remember the day I was taken, you know, before I was put in the plane. And I just came back from work. You know, I was doing installation in the presidency, out of all places. They want to, uh, revamp their network, and they took our company. So I was the engineer who was in charge. I came back, it was Ramadan. Ramadan meaning fasting month, you know? And I came back 4:00 PM. I think it was around four. Only my mother was home. Like, my sisters, brothers, only she and me. And came, you know, in plain clothes. Said, "You need to come with us." She told me, "Mohamed," doing whisper, "They take you know why?" I said, "No." They said, "Because of the TV. You watch TV." She doesn't want me to be involved in politics or discussion or anything. And then they took me. I said, "No, no, it's going to be all right. I'm coming back," and ... and then they took me, and then I was watching her at the rear view mirror as she disappeared, getting smaller and smaller. And I never forget, uh, her holding the prayer beads, frantically praying. Until I turned right, I never saw my mother again. Ever. And the thing that I never realized, I never appreciated the pain she went, she was going through because I never had a son. I only had son, like, two years ago, Ahmed, and I cannot even imagine someone taking Ahmed away from me, and taking him away with no reason. Like, this is not like Canada or, like, a Western country, a free country where the police has to show cause. Meaning, they said, "We are taking your son because of one, two, three, four." This is painful still, but one can understand that you are in a society and the society has rules, and you have to respect the rules if you want to live in the society. And, but nothing like that. Same thing in Jordan. I was not allowed to see the Red Cross. I was not allowed to call my, uh, embassy. Nothing. I was under the total mercy of people who work in the darkness, total darkness, away from podcasts, away from internet, away from TV, everything. Democracy dies in darkness. So after that, they came to me one day.... then one of the guards threw a trash bag, a black trash bag, one of the heavy-duty, through the bin hole. The bin hole is prison parlance for a very small, uh, window, like very small windows where you can barely fit your hand, where they give you food, and they close it, and communicate with you, the guards. Then they throw the, uh, the trash bag inside and said, and said, "You're going home." Chris, I cannot describe to you my feeling. It, it's... I just start, like, crying uncontrollably, you know, just like a child. I was in a hole, in a pit for eight month. Of course, I lost count because later on I knew that I didn't know the days, anything, even though I tried to keep them. And I lost, like, 10 days in all, and I don't know where they went. And, and... Because sometime I didn't know days and nights, because I was put in the cellar, underground. And, and I was thinking now what came to me? I was thinking I was a pure person. I was a good person in prison, because there was no opportunity to do bad things in prison. Like, bad thing, I mean, like bad-mouthing, making, like, unsavory comments, like criticizing your mother's food and so on and so forth. And I was like, I felt I was close to God, you know. And, you know, a prison is like death. You know, this is like another life, but now I'm going back to life. How would I do in life? Would I be, uh, still a good person in real life? And then I, I came, and then I went to the bathroom, but I didn't want to tell them I want to use the bathroom, because I didn't want them to change their minds. So, I, I didn't went to the bathroom. I said, "Let's go," and now they put me in a plane to Mauritania, and I will just take... go to the bathroom and do whatever I want to do, you know. I'm not going to screw this up. I came there, they took me, all blindfolded, and you cannot see anything. And then they took off the blindfold, they start to give me back my belonging, like my driver license, some money I had, you know, and ID card and stuff like that. And, uh, and they told me to sign money, because they, they told me to put on the line I was shaking like this. I couldn't, like, I couldn't control my shaking. And then I, I, I took the pen and signed. I didn't count anything. I just said, "Whatever, I agree, whatever, because I'm going home. I don't care about anything else." Then I saw the date 31st of July, 2002. So, that's when it hit me that I had another date in my head, so... And, uh, no, I s- I saw 20th, but in my head it was 31st. Sorry. And then I knew I wasn't really in my right, right state of mind. And then they took me and they laid me on, like, a stretcher, and then they pushed me into a, into a... some kind of truck, because I could feel the moving. And then I heard the... (slaps hands) After, I don't know, maybe 30 minutes or so, I heard the roaring of engines. I knew I was in, in, in, in airport, in some kind of airport. And (sighs) I, I, I was just... I was almost exploding, because I, I need to go to the bathroom really bad, so bad. And I was like... It's so painful when you need to go to the bathroom and you cannot. And (sighs) they start to play music, you know, to just to, uh, to dumb down my hearing, so I don't hear them talking, conversing. And I love the music really. It was Abdul Halim Hafedh. He's very legendary Egyptian, uh, singer. And it felt like I'm back to life, you know, I'm back to life. And then it took a long time. I don't know, at least one hour, at least, if not hours. I, I don't remember, but a very long time. And then someone start to touch me, and then, you know, like, you know, man-handle me, like, touching me everywhere, and then they start to cut open my clothes with scissors. Stripped me naked completely, except for my blindfold and my, uh, ear plugs. They start to put me in diapers. And then it dawned on me that I was not going home, you know. I was going to prison, very bad prison life. And it came back to me those, like, movies, and those, like, documentaries I watch in Germany about, uh, RAF, American prisons.And I was telling myself, "I'm not going back. This is it. This is life." I'm going to die in a prison in the US. I'm going to be forgotten, you know. I'm from Africa. This is bad for me. I'm f- an Arab, which is very bad, and I'm a Muslim. Three strikes I could count in my head. And I wouldn't be treated fairly, and I was aware of the anger too of the United States. And I just was, like, praying that my family doesn't see me ever on TV, paraded in chains, you know, because that would hurt them so badly. And then I took it upon myself from that moment on if for some, like, miracle, if I go back to life, I will be a good person. Why? Because I start to regret what I did in my life because that was, like, a moment that I was living life. And the only thing I regretted is not being nice enough. Why did I criticize my mother when sh- I didn't like the food? Why did I make this comment? You know? Why wasn't I nice? Why wasn't I courteous to people enough? And I took it upon myself to be nice. Actually, I never, like, regretted not having money. I never regretted not having this very hard shake. I never regret any of that. I never regret not having a house. None of that. It didn't matter to me. What mattered to me, why didn't... Why wasn't I nice? Because nice, you don't need money to be nice. You don't need wealth. You don't need anything. You don't need a look. You don't need a background to be nice. Just be nice, you know? And a lot of people, like, ask me, like, "Oh, uh, you said you forgave people everything." This is a bunch of BS because I wouldn't forgive people if I... I... But I would say, "You didn't have my life," because, to me, I know what matters, you know? And I'm doing myself a favor. You don't know how much favor I'm doing myself and how, like, selfish I am. You know, you don't know how selfish I am. I'm very much, you know, uh, serving my own interests when I say I forgive people, you know, because I want to be a nice person. And to be honest too, you know, like, Chris, you know... You know I like, uh, Tony Robbins. You know, I like his speeches a lot and so. Motivational speaker from the US. I read his book everything, and some of the good thing he said that stuck with me that your biograph- bio- biography does not dictate your future, you know? Right. You know, you can always have a f- the future you want, and this is all, like, easier said than done, you know. It's very easy, like, for you and me to say, "I, I, I want to be a nice person, and I will be a nice person." It's not easy, because like circumstances, like, keep, keep pushing your button all the time and have always to center yourself, come back, said, "How can I be nice without hurting myself?" You know, because that's like the threshold. And so they put me in this diaper, and they took me out, and they put me in clothes after that. They took me out. They stretch me on a stretcher in a plane. The plane start to move, took off. You know, you know that by your ears when they crack, pop. (smacks lips) I was, you know, just like feeling so bad for myself, you know? You know, "Why, why this is happening?" You know? I, I just... I, I don't know what was going through my head, but I want to pee so bad. And the diaper are for peeing, but I couldn't pee in diapers. I couldn't. This is not... Like, you know, I say something, I say, uh, subconscious bitch. You know, because with the way we were raised, you know, has so much bearing and it's almost like a burden, you know, on us. You know, I was always like, you know, uh, the way I were raised, it's not... You have always to be very private when you want to pee. You have to be away from people. You have to be in certain place to do that. You know? And now, I know this, this does not work because I have to pee, but I couldn't. The plane kept flying, flying, flying, flying, flying. You know? And they kept, like, to make it worse, they kept like,

3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi30:00

      you know, like s- uh, sprinkling somehow water in my mouth because they want to keep me hydrated. You know, this is like a kidnapping team. They know what they were doing. I was not their first client, so. And they were not rough with me. They did not beat me. They did not treat me rough. Even the guy who was, like, giving me water, he was just, like, tapping, like, nicely on my shoulder.... like, first time, like, I, uh, I feel that someone is feeling my pain somehow. But there is no talking, and, uh, I'm s- s- there is something in me, you know. And I say this, share this with you, Chris, that just it dawned on me that I'm very easily subdued. Like, a normal person would say, "Guys, I need to pee." But I never said that. You know? I was, like, mesmerized in this world of silence and darkness. You know? I couldn't see anything. It was total darkness. And no one was talking. And then I was completely integrated in this, like, very weird world, and I accepted it to my own detriment, you know? And then I was just dying, you know? And then ... Because, you know, when you start, like, treating people in this way, like, this is not even, didn't start torture.

   2. NANarrator31:51

      (laughs)

   3. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi31:51

      But we are very vulnerable. I'm saying this because later on I learned that two detainees died, two I know of died, on, on record. And so I think after five hours or six hours, I don't know, I was just in my head, plane started to lose altitude, you know. I could, uh, I could feel that. My whole body could feel that. Then it touched down, and then I was taken and then I was put in a, um, chopper. I know that because I heard. Like, it was so loud and, uh, the way, you know, it- it- it must be a chopper. So there was no other way. And then they put me in a truck. Truck was good because they sat me and then two people push against me and I felt the warmth of a human being in a very long time. Eight month, the first time I feel the warmth of a human being. And I was so cold. And then they spoke a language I never heard. I start hearing them because they spoke very loudly. This was, like, some of the Afghani languages that I was not familiar with. And then I thought what it was Philipp- Philippines because ... I don't know. Just in my head I said, "I know there is, were, like, military base in Philippines." I was thinking that I was going to land in Germany, Ramstein and then taken. No. But they're, this was not German language, because I understand German, obviously, because I studied in Germany. So, and then I said, "This is Philippines." So and then they took me, and then they, uh, they sat me on my knees. And then for the first time, in a long time, I peed like a champion.

   4. NANarrator34:26

      (laughs)

   5. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi34:27

      Because I felt alone. And when I peed, you know, I was a free man. I didn't care about where I was. I didn't care what happened to me. Just the relief of the pain, that (sighs) just like giving birth, you know, after a very long labor. Then they start, like, to strip me naked, and then they took the, uh, blindfold. You know, like, your instinct when they strip you naked, you always put your hands on your private parts automatically. You know. And then they start to, uh, you know... Well, the weirdest thing that I saw, like, they come to me and then they pull my hair. You know. Later on, I th- I, I understand this for DNA testing. And, uh ... So-and, uh, they start interrogation like, you know, put me back in the blindfold and then they start interrogation, like, destroying chairs beside me, very loud. You know, just like in movies, you know. But they didn't beat me; they just, like, were asking me stupid question because they were not briefed properly who I was and where I came from that. I think the CIA plane just dropped me and then there were, like, a lot of different agencies and private contractors. And everyone, like, everyone wants a piece of you, everyone wants to be the, the guy who is, like, cracking the bad terrorist, quote, unquote. And because they were asking about bin Laden, where he was, and where Mullah Omar... Mullah Omar is the last president of, uh, Afghani- Afghanistan. Uh, and I didn't know there was a war-I didn't know they took over Kabul. I did- I, I n- I didn't know none of that, but their questions just giving me information after information. M- just like watching the BBC. So, where did they go? Uh, because they thought I was picked up from the battlefield. That's, to their... Atri- th- they must have thought that. I was think, "What? W- w- uh, I, I don't know. I swear, I don't know." And so it's just very broken. No resistance, nothing. Then they took me to this room. Very alone, like, with carpet. One room, and then they took me to another room. And (sigh) I, I saw ... I, I, I don't know how, but I saw the, the feet of a detainee moving, and I was, "Oh my god, this guy being tortured, I'm sure," you know. You know, just like crazy stuff coming to my head. And then there was no bathroom in the, in the cell, so I peed on the floor, everything on the floor. (sniffles) And they took me for interrogation. Again, must have been night. You know, those like people is makeshift prison in Bagram terminal. It's makeshift. You know, but, you know, Americans, like, they always like, wherever they go, they build this little America right away. So I could hear, like, rock and roll music, you know, people talking very loud, you know, and eating all the time. All the time. There is no, like, no break, you know, some kind of like, uh, energy bar, you know, or drink. There is no pause. You know, not like sitting there, "Okay, let's talk about something." No, we have to eat something. And that's the first thing, like, that came to my mind. And I was like very curious about Americans. I hear a lot about Americans. I see a lot about Americans on TV, on movies, you know? But I never really met Americans, you know, this was like my... (sniffles) So they sat me there. There was this very young Arabic translator, you know. She's native-born American, you know. I could tell from the accent she, he- she is not a native Arab speaker, obviously. And then she asked me, "What languages do you speak?" It's a standard question because they want to organize their resources. I said, I said ... And then I said like, "German, French and so on." Everybody was, "What?" I said, "Yeah," I said, "German." They said first lie, and then they called a guy, CIA guy, by the name, uh, name of Mi-sha-el, German, um, American. Then he start, you know, he start speaking German with me, and I responded him, and he told me he speak better German than I. So my English was not good enough to carry on an interrogation, so it was very basic. Yes, no, and so on. And then he told me one thing I never forget. He look at me and say, " (German) ," uh, n- nein, " (German) ," (German) . Meaning, "The truth will set you free." When he said that, I had this picture recalled in my head, (German) . Work will set you free. And I never forget this sign because I saw it in Ger- on German documentaries, everything over and over and over. And I knew the people for whom this sign was meant did not, uh, did not go frie- free, I mean. They never... They, they, they died actually. And that was like a very bad omen for me. Uh, I didn't say anything. Uh, they assigned me to him. He was a very nice guy, you know. Like, nice for the circumstances because when you say nice or bad, it's always compared to something else because the first thing he did to me, he said, "Give me your password." That, th- that's the friendliest thing that they could tell you. They come take you, Chris, to the police said, "You are on Instagram. You are on YouTube. I need your password. I need to see everything you have." You would be like, "What? W- w- who, who are you?" (laughs) And then I told him, "You know..." To be honest with you, I know I will end up giving him my password. I know there is no way around it. And I also as a, as an IT person, I also know they have way to see everything without me giving them my password. Back then I was Yahoo email, you know? And I said... I start to get, you know, to get him on my side. I said, "You know, this is, uh, you know, against the law. This is my private." He said, "Look, I give you two options. Either you give it to me or I take it by force."And I said, "Okay." And then I wrote him my password. You know, my password is very easy. First name of my wife, followed by her birthday. Very easy. And I never had, like, a strong password or anything, because there was nothing interesting in my email or anything, you know. But it's so painful, you know, to see your, like, privacy violated, you know? And there is nothing you can do. This is, like, mundane to a lot of people. But to me, it's not mundane. That someone, like, tells you this... This is like just, uh, if someone tells you, "Please take off your clothes." And you would say, "No, I won't." And then they force you to take off your clothes because this is your privacy issues, your home. This is a door closed. But anyway, then he start explaining to me the process. And, uh, he told me one thing. He said, "You are guilty even if you are not guilty, because there is no way out of this," he said. "So make peace," he said, uh, "with that fact." And he also told me that I was going to be taken to Guantanamo Bay, which I didn't know. And he explained to me and I was so happy because this is like, he said, "It's under American control." And I want to be under American control because I grew up... When I was younger, I used to watch Law & Order and, uh, and Married With Children. So Americans are funny and American respect the rule of law. So I was not afraid that they would find out anything against me because I didn't do anything to them. Then they took me to Guantanamo Bay and, like, first about nine month it was like interrogation. It was very painful like, but I was not heavily tortured or anything. But they decided I was really... I really need to talk to them, they thought, to confess to something. They put me on this, like, enhanced

4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   I was gonna ask…

   1. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi45:00

      interrogation technique, a euphemism for torture. And starting from May of 2003, I was officially rolled in, in the program. And it was really painful, like no sleeping, you know, and interrogation 24/7, sexual assault on three occasions at least, I remember. I was beaten until I broke my ribs, this all on record, and my gallbladder was destroyed. Later on, they had to take me to the hospital and remove it. And I was just a mess. I was just a mess. But, Chris, when they... See, this all, they didn't, like, quote unquote, "break." They... One day they came to me before the boat ride, infamous boat ride, where they took me in a boat and, you know, drowned me and, (sniffs) and beat me. All kind of beating. They came to me, they said, "We are going to arrest your mother, put her in men-only prison and there is nothing we can do if she get assaulted in there." And then I lost it. I, I said... I was like, "Whatever you want, I will do." And there is no limit. No limit to my... To what I would confess to. And then they, like, coached me. You know, they said, like, "Let's say you would make an, an attack against CN Tower," because they want to make it logical with the time, because I was in Canada. And I never heard of CN Tower, by the way, with all due respect, and I never been to Toronto in my life. I said, "Yes." Then I start writing and they said, "You need to write it." And I wrote it. I put the names of my friend as my accomplices. They said, "You need to sign it." And I did sign it. And this was like, so, like weird because they want to put me on, uh, death, put me to death. They need very solid, like, confession because I was the first candidate for death penalty. And the guy came back to me, Start, like, "Hey, Sergeant. Hey, Sergeant Shelly came to me." He said, "You know, you are a good guy because you confessed everything. You can negotiate, like, 30 years." And so... And I was like, "Listen, I'm... I mean, what world..." I was thinking, "What world does he live in?" You know? (laughs) And, and like, he was like giving me the good news. The good news to him is me staying in prison for 30 years instead of being put to death. And I was just like mechanically just sitting with my head, "Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you." And he was saying how in America they respect people who confess everything. And I was like, "Yes, yes. Okay."... and then after all this, biggest challenge, this is the irony, that my confession was very big challenge to the intelligence community because it contradicted, like, everything they know. They know I didn't do anything. They just wanted me there to give them information about my cousin, about people I know, about, about people who go to the mosque, et cetera. And they never thought I did, like ... uh, I planned to attack, like... At least the CIA knows that I didn't do that, and the FBI, they just... The guy who was lead investigating Millennium Plot, he just told, uh, Canadian press, La Presse, the other day. He said he went in person to Guantanamo Bay and told them, "Mohamed was nothing to do with 9/11, with the Millennium Plot." You can do something else because I know this case, because I'm interrogating the guy, the main guy. They have this obsession, you know? So they know about the problem, they don't, they don't exchange information, so... The, the, the person who was, like, interrogating me, Richard Zuli, a cop from Chicago, he was a private contractor. He was working, you know? He was, uh, he was a private contractor hired by, uh, DOD, you know? That is the, uh, the, uh, defense... Department of Defense, so like, the military, you know? And he just wanted results. Turned out he was a very bad cop indeed, because he put innocent people behind bar, some of whom 20 years, w- turned out to be innocent. So that's his, you know, his magic that he could break up, like, innocent people and make them confess something they didn't do and put them in prison. So, he was not important to the CIA to share with him information, or the FBI, so... And I was not important to the CIA or the FBI to save me and say, "Hey, hey, this is innocent guy. What, what you do?" So, it was not important to them. So... And then they, they came back to him. They said, "This is BS." You know, this is, he didn't do this, so... And he almost went crazy, and he c- he came back to me. He said, "They wanted you to make, like, a lie detector test." And I was so scared because I know how it works. I said, "But when I do it, the confession will go aways because I cannot lie on." And then he said, "No, no, no. Okay, okay. Just..." You know, he was, like, very upset but he said, "No, no, you just take. Just give the answers, truth." And then I said, "Okay." They put me on this, like, lie detector and I cleared myself 100% and I passed. I said, "I didn't do anything. I never done anything. I never thought about doing anything against you." And this, like, put a hold on my case, like, forever. So, they never took me out of torture, but they start, like, tapering it.

   2. CWChris Williamson52:39

      I was gonna ask how they slowed down from the enhanced interrogation back into, back into normal life. Before we go on a little bit further, I just want to go back to the sleep deprivation. How do they deprive you of sleep during that 70-day enhanced interrogation period?

   3. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi52:56

      Okay. So, they have four shifts, three shifts of interrogation and they just take you. When the next shift, uh, when th- this shift is done, they start a new shift. They take you out, and if you go back to your cell, the time you are in your cell, they keep banging on your door. Okay? The first 70 days was like that. Did not stop. I... After the ride boat, I lost consciousness and I don't know what happened in that period, like two or three weeks. I don't know anything. When they came back to sleep deprivation, different technique. They call it water diet. They give me water every, like, about two hours or one hour. They force me to drink, like, three-quarter of a liter, and then I keep just going to the bathroom all the time. All the time. No sleep. And I ask Yoda one time, "Why don't they just, like, keep me awake standing?" He said, "You know, it's more painful with water, because you feel like we are not, we are not doing thing, but you just cannot sleep, you know? Because giving you water is a good thing."

   4. CWChris Williamson54:26

      So they make you the architect of your own torture?

   5. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi54:29

      Correct, correct. And he is right. It's so painful. Like, every time you close your eyes, you want to go to the bathroom, and I developed a very, very, like...... this habit, very painful habit that even though there is no water, I keep waking up during night to go to the bathroom, sitting. Sometimes no water, nothing. I don't want to be bathed, just sitting there. This took me many years, you know, in prison to get somehow under control. And now, when I get depressed, it comes back to me right away that I want to go to the bathroom, the first reaction. I want to go to the bathroom. And, uh, yeah, y- feel free to interrupt me because I'm going on with this-

   6. CWChris Williamson55:25

      (laughs) No.

   7. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi55:26

      ... monologue.

   8. CWChris Williamson55:27

      I, um... What's it like being sleep deprived for 70 days?

   9. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi55:36

      You become a different person. I mean... Like, you live in a different world, like a dimension. You are just waiting to die, kind of. And... I took sleep for granted, like, before. It is so. And now, after that, I understand what, when people in pain, they cannot sleep. I 100% understand, you know, how painful it is, you know. We just need sleep. We just, it's... We just need to take a break from, like, working. And then, but we just, like... I was just, like, almost like an animal. I didn't even think about it. I just go to sleep. That's it. I have, like, a magazine near my bed or something to read, you know, that put me to sleep. Then I just go to sleep and then, you know, wake up in the morning fresh and so happy. And, but now I'm very conscious. I said, "Now I'm going to sleep. This is really good thing." When I'm not depressed, I feel so good about it. Like, the... My favorite place in the house is my bed, you know. That's why I insist to have a TV in my bedroom. And this is a big fight with my wife-

   10. CWChris Williamson57:51

       (laughs)

   11. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi57:51

       ... because she doesn't want TV. But when she is not around, I put back the TV.

   12. CWChris Williamson58:00

       (laughs)

   13. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi58:00

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson58:02

       But now she knows. Now she knows that if she watches this podcast, she's going to know that you're sneaking the TV back into your bedroom.

   15. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi58:08

       Absolutely. And I, I, I'm not going to be controlled by anyone, so-

   16. CWChris Williamson58:13

       (laughs) You're not going to apologize. Um-

   17. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi58:15

       No, definitely not.

   18. CWChris Williamson58:16

       The, the cells were kept really cold as well, right? This was another, another method to try and break spirit.

   19. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi58:23

       Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are, like, other technique, like, that I didn't mention, of course, because this was all very well orchestrated and studied, like, uh, torture techniques. And I have to say, you know, Chris, American people are not like that. American people are good people. They are very generous people. You know, they are very, uh, uh, you know, they have a lot of empathy, and they love people. They love life. They love to live, you know. We just, we just... There is something I don't have any answer to. Why do, like, good people engage in very bad behavior, you know, to get along and to go along with other people, you know? You know, this is, like, human. Like, unfortunately, it's our nature. Whether you are Christian, Muslims, you know, atheists, Buddhists, or whatever, we know that happens to all people. They always engage in horrific stuff, at least by omission or not, like, reporting, you know, and go along. (sniffs) And, uh, so they, uh... You, you, you, you were talking about the cold room. The cold room is really very painful, because I have only, like, the, uh, (sniffs) the, uh, uh, prison uniform and overall. No, two pieces. Sorry.

5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Who's... Sorry, who's Ronika?…

   1. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:00:00

      Two pieces. And there is nothing under them, nothing. Light, and then they put me in this cold room. They crank up the AC that they have there, and I just keep shaking. And I talked to Ronika, because I always try to negotiate my way out of torture. I tell them, "You are doing so... Bad thing to me. I didn't do anything." And then I told Ronika, "You're killing me."

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:29

      Who's... Sorry, who's Ronika?

   3. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:00:31

      Ronika is a Navy lieutenant who was a part of the team, and she was like the person who, who was like the nicest, in a way, because she smiled sometime. And, uh, you know... So I give you very good wisdom. If a girl smile, she's not going to give you her number necessarily. So-So, she just smiled and I thought, "This is a good person," so I- I said, "You are killing me. I'm dying." She said, "No, you are not going to die because we have doctors, we have everything." She was very wrong because, you know, you know Rahman Gul, Rahman Gul died in the cold room. And, uh, and Dahliwar died in the beating. It took him only 24 hours, you know, and he died. And because we are human being, we are very ... You know, it takes so much to save one's life, but so little to take out a life. And this is like, us.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:01:43

      Was that lieutenant the person who cried when someone came in and took you out of the interrogation room? There's a scene in the movie where one of the interrogators, who I think is a female, s- another group come in and take you away, and this is for the mock execution, which I- I think I wanted to get into. Is sh- that the lady, the one that smiled at you?

   5. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:02:05

      No, that was Mary. She was also ... No. I mean, she- she participate in torture, and especially, like, sexual assault. But she was always confused, and, uh, she was not sure if she was doing the right thing, because she kept, like, talking. To me said, "You know what? We don't give a f- fuck because this is, like, we don't care if the world doesn't like us." But ... And then, "I know this is not healthy for us, but we're doing it anyway." So, she was very, like, conflicted, you know, because she ... As if she was, like, trying to convince herself she's doing the right thing. And she came back to me after this episode, like you said, of mock execution and waterboarding. It's, uh ... She came to me, but they stopped her because that was a very bad behavior, like, to them, like, showing like, any kind of-

   6. CWChris Williamson1:03:24

      Compassion.

   7. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:03:26

      Compassion was a red line. But they brought her, I don't know how many months, but they brought her back, and she said she was so happy that I cleared my name, that I ... She was really happy, you know? And she watched with me a movie called Black Hawk Down. She brought it, you know. Just another movie showing American greatness and bravery, and just (laughs) th- the right kind of movies. And, uh ... I was not actually watching the movie. I was watching the reaction, her reactions to the movie, and that of the guards. I just want to know how this propaganda, like, (laughs) works on people, you know? Like, you know ... You know, a guy told me last night, I was invited to iftar, an old person, a wise person from this country, he told me. He told me, "I need a mirror to see my face, because my face is so close to me, I cannot see it without stepping back." And, you know, American people have i- a lot to be proud of. American people are very inventive. They are the most powerful country in the world, and they never lost a war in the last, like, I don't know, since the Civil War. And, yes, i- it's- it's very, it's very hard to- to see themself as, like, just regular human being and be down to Earth, everything, you know. I'm a Mauritanian, and in Mauritania, we think we are the best country in the world. And you say, "Mauritania," no one knows what Mauritania is, so ... Let alone Americans. So ... And I was watching, like, Black Hawk Down. Black Hawk Down is about American, uh, soldiers in, uh, in Somal- S- Soma- in Somalia. And, uh, that's- well, it has, they shown that they were fighting alone without anyone helping them, people stabbing them in the back, uh. And, but the question that popped in my head, "What are you doing in Somalia? This is very far from home." So that ... But I couldn't say anything. I couldn't criticize. I just was watching, and Mary was telling me, "Look, look those brave people." And s- you know, those Marine, and everything is nice, you know, the- the movie was ... The cinematography was good, and American people look very handsome, very well-dressed. And, uh, the Pakistani guy who wouldn't give them, uh, assistance, the bad guy, he didn't look good, he had a very bad accent, he couldn't even speak English. You know, this is all, like, you know, going, you know, on the side of American people, you know, the good people, you know, the beautiful people, you know, the well-dressed people, the people who go everywhere to save freedom and-... and, uh, yeah, that's why I was watching, uh, Staff Sergeant Mary and not the movie.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:07:04

      Just seeing if the hypocrisy was registering on her face at any point.

   9. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:07:10

      (laughs) You said that I'm not going that far, but I'm just being serious.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:07:14

       But that's fine because I'm, I'm British, so I can say whatever I want.

   11. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:07:17

       Okay.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:07:18

       I ha-

   13. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:07:18

       You, you are the smart guy.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:07:20

       Correct. Uh-

   15. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:07:20

       I know that. (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson1:07:21

       ... I heard that some of the guards also suffered from PTSD after they'd worked at Guantanamo Bay, and obviously, we're seeing the level of conflict here, some of the interrogators, some of the people that were looking after you. Even during the process, they're being conflicted about their own motivations, about why they're doing what they're doing, whether they should be doing it, and that doesn't surprise me. I remember thinking afterwards, "Would I be able to... Would I be able to willfully do something which, after the event would give me PTSD?" But then I realized that's what war is. Soldiers willfully go to war. They sometimes don't realize what they're doing in the heat of the battle, and then afterwards, that's when they, they pay for it, and that's when the PTSD comes. And I can kind of see how that would occur with the guards, but I can also see how they would be conflicted as well.

   17. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:08:15

       Absolutely. You know, I remember this young man by the name of, uh, Jeddah. His name is Jeddah. Uh, he, he came to me, you know, and he was a good guy, and aside from participating in torture and so, and he gave me cookies, you know? No, no, not cookies. Muffin. Muffin. You know, I remember this blueberry muffin is my favorite, and he, he smuggled them to me, and he just comes to me and then he just put them, open the bin hole and put them and go away. Then I take them and I ate them, and then he start... It was forbidden to talk to him, you know? And then he came to me when there was no one around or when his friend... Al- always two guards, like, watching all the time. All the time. Light doesn't go out, so all the time. And, uh... I just want your audience to appreciate life, to appreciate, like, having a bedroom and being able to put off the light. And no one is watching them. They go to the bathroom, no one is watching them. They change their clothes, no one is watching them. Everything I did was watched and recorded for the future so American could take out now and put it on TV, national TV. So... And just thinking about it makes me appreciate life and appreciate privacy. And he came to me one day. I told him, "Jeddah, I want to ask you a question." He said, "Yeah." I said, "Why did you force me? Why did they prevent you from praying by force?" And, you know, this is like, you know, "You are a Christian." And so, he said, he told me, "Yeah, I know I'm going to hell, but what do you want me to do?" I was like, "But you are in a free country. You know, y- your country. You are a free man. Like, I understand if your dictatorship," but he said, "Yeah, but if I don't do this job, they give me a shitty job." You know, he just says, "Take me in... This is a good job." Like, I don't know why it is good, but I think it pay, pays more, I believe. And then we end up... After my release, he ended up contacting, contacting... He, he, he's the one who initiated contact. All of the guards initiate contact. I never contacted anyone because I, I, I don't want them to think I'm trying to, uh, locate them or anything. So all of the guards, and like you said, all of them were very, like, they showed contrition, and they want... They apologized to me, and they, they, they're really hurting a lot, you know? Because it's just not normal that you inflict pain on other people unless you are very sick, and then you think you gonna be free after that. I don't think... Unless you are psychopath, you are going to suffer pain, you know?

   18. CWChris Williamson1:11:58

       The entry price to hell isn't that high if all it is is the difference between $15 an hour and $30 an hour.

   19. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:12:05

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson1:12:05

       That's quite a cheap entry price to get yourself into hell.

   21. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:12:08

       Uh, sure.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:12:08

       Committed to eternal damnation for the sake of $15 an hour.

   23. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:12:13

       I know, I know. You know, it's, it's amazing, but unfortunately, like, like I said, this is a cross-cultural phenomenon that we as human being... And I know your show concentrate on the big picture, you know, how and... When we d- don't learn from each other, we cannot grow, you know? And one of the good thing, one of the b- very big lesson, you know, I was very, like, local in my thinking. You know, I'm v- I'm going to be very upfront with you. So I thought, okay, I am... You know, like, look at us, our culture. Muslim are the best people. I'm in Africa, Arab, African best people. And I always looked at the interest of Muslim and Arab.... but when I went to this painful experience, the vast majority of people who stood by me, who showed compassion, are not Muslims. You know, they are Christian, they are Jewish people, and they are none with no denomination at all. And then I thought, "Okay. I need to look at us as human beings instead of force-fitting people in a, in a very narrow identity," you know, because I don't believe that if you say a Muslim, this is an identity that is, like, enough description. But Muslim could be a man, could be a woman, could be a liberal, could be a conservative, could be Black, could be white, could be feminist, could be non-feminist, could be a European, could be non-European, African, could be a, like a... and so on and so forth. I mean, so on and so forth. And when you start, like, counting the things that, uh, that we share, you and I, as human being, if- even though we grow up in a very different circumstances, it's ... we will find so many identities that we share, you know, that could, like, prevent conflict and promote understanding and peace.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:14:29

       After the enhanced interrogation's finished and the results of the lie detector test came through, it turns out that they know now, the US government know that you're not guilty. You're held for a further nine years without charge. You go through this entire litigation process. You release your book, and then you eventually get out. So, not only have you been through, before Guantanamo, all of this horrible treatment at the hand of Jordanians and

6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   You know, Chris, I…

   1. CWChris Williamson1:15:00

      you're in Cyprus and all of this other stuff, you go through Guantanamo, you go through the en- enhanced interrogation. Then that's dragged out for nearly another decade. Then you finally get released. How is it that you don't have resentment or hatred towards that situation?

   2. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:15:22

      You know, Chris, I saw death many times. I faced death many times. And the only regret ... The only thing I regretted when I was about to die was not being nice, you know. Not being nice, that's the only thing I regretted. I didn't regret not having money. I didn't regret not being a badass, not having money, not marrying this very hot girl. The only thing I regretted, not being nice, and I took it upon myself to be as nice, uh, as nice as possible-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:15:59

      Why?

   4. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:15:59

      ... to people. Make a difference. Because that would make me happy and that ... because everybody will die, I mean, one day. And I want, I want to go in peace and as a happy person. I don't want to have regret when I am on my deathbed. And today, you know, I met you, you know, and so I want you to have good memory about me. That's all I want. And I don't want fake memories. I want you to have good memories that I can only think good thing about this guy. Because we have in our tradition, we have a saying. Say, uh, in Hadith, that's the s- uh, the- the saying of our prophet, "People decide who go to heaven." That's a saying, "People decide who go to heaven," because their testimony are the one who ... that takes you to heaven. And I want good testimonies, not fake, not faking, like, niceness. No. I want to be nice because... I give you an example. People who hurt me the most, one of the people who hurt the most is Richard Zuli, a lieutenant from Chicago. Very known. Look him up. You find it. He's an old man today. Very angry man. I don't want him to suffer because nothing good is going to come out of hi- him suffering at all. I won't get any money. I won't get any status. I don't get any power when he gets ... when he suffer. And I hate to see people suffering anyway. And, you know, there is this girl. I think she i- she is Canadian-Lebanese, and she said, "I forgive you not because you deserve forgiveness or you ask for forgiveness, but because I want to live in peace." And it's very hard to find forgiveness in, in ... for someone who hurt you so badly. And this is for everyone. I mean, look in your life, look in your friend's life. A very bad breakup, someone who betrayed your trust, this is very hard to forgive, you know. But when you come to term, you know, with that and when you decide to forgive, it's just so rewarding because ... I mean, people called me and people, you know, are, like, ask me as if I was a doctor because they want me to help them heal. And this makes me really feel very good, you know? And I tell you another thing, which is a little bit evil side of me. So, there was this interrogator. She was so obsessed with my case, you know. The guard called, called her Tons of Fun because she was on the heavier side.... of the scale. And, uh, she was so obsessed, like, with my case. And she always believed I am a bad guy. And then this journalist asked me to, to talk to her. I said, "No problem." And then she talks to me and then she said, "I just want you to a- to answer one of my question." I said, "No. I don't have to answer any of your question. And this is not interrogation room." She said, "But, yeah. You, you, uh, then you are not innocent." I said, "I'm not claiming anything. I don't have to prove anything to you." So, and her, like, you know, agitation really gives me some, like, satisfaction because-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:20:01

      (laughs)

   6. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:20:01

      ... because (laughs) she, she couldn't come with peace. And I, I just want to be friend with her and I want to move on, but she wouldn't. She wouldn't budge after so many years in Guantanamo Bay. She wouldn't move forward. And I found out either way, I will be happy. If you, uh, if you want to open your heart and be my friend, I will be your friend. If you want to stuck in Guantanamo Bay, it's fine with me too, because, like, the journalist was saying, "Why don't you answer?" I said, "Because I don't want to. I want to be in charge of when to give an answer and, uh, not to give an answer." And, I, uh, she's... Her... I told her, "It's fine to think I'm a not, not a good guy. But as long as you don't torture me, that's fine with me. And today, you are not going to torture me because we are 5,000 miles apart, kilomet- kilometers, about 3,000 miles." And it felt good, honestly.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:21:10

      Well, you're exercising your freedom. After all that time where you didn't have your freedoms, you weren't free to choose your own actions and your own agency, and you are. I think even the most virtuous amongst us is still at the mercy of our biology, right? We can't get rid of the desire for a little bit of le- retribution, even if it's a little snipe-

   8. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:21:31

      (laughs) .

   9. CWChris Williamson1:21:32

      ... here and there, you know? A verbal game. Whatever it might be. I have a friend who said, uh, thinking about what you were talking about there, about the fact that your captors, some of them couldn't release, they couldn't relinquish their anger and their distaste. And he says that anger is like a virus, so it's been passed from person to person. Someone was angry, and then they've displaced that anger onto somebody else, and they've displaced that anger onto somebody else. And it takes an incredibly strong person to be a bookend, you know? To be the end of a bracket, to stop that, and to say, "I don't know who you got it from and I don't know who gave it to you and I don't know who gave it to them, but I'm not going to decide to pass it on. I'm going to be the end of this anger."

   10. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:22:15

       So beautiful, Chris. So beautiful. I learned very good lesson today. This is something I will not forget. And this is so helpful to know it consciously, you know, that you need to stop it right there because it's your responsibility, like, paying it forward, kind of. This is beautiful, honestly.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:22:35

       Tell me about your situation now.

   12. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:22:37

       My situation? So ... (six seconds pause) I'm trying to pick up the pieces and I'm trying to be happy and I'm trying to help as many people as possible in my life, you know, paying it forward. I have... On the civil side, I, I'm married. I have a child by the name of Ahmed. He's two years old. My family lives in Germany. I'm still trying to join them, but the stigma of Guantanamo Bay is still, like, still, like, uh, chasing me. And, uh, I am trying to promote my movie and I was invited by Benedict Cumberbatch, all of the crew, but I couldn't attend because the UK denied my visa. And this all the stigma of Guantanamo Bay, because they have this circular argument, if you had been to Guantanamo Bay, you must deserve to be in Guantanamo Bay. And I completely understand, like, that the security forces, like, in a democracy, they have the se- sacred job to protect the people, you know? I understand that completely. And I understand that people commit violence for many reasons. One of them is ideological reason. But I just want the people in your country and in the West to understand that my family and my friends in Mauritania, they just want the same thing that you want, you and your family wants. They want better jobs, better life. They want peace. They want longer life, better healthcare system. That what we talk about. We don't sit and think about how to hurt people we don't know in the United Kingdom. We don't think about that. We understand, you know, we are, you are doing better than us. You know, being a free country for a very long time, it's a very good thing. We still fight for the most basic freedoms in this part of the world. And instead of your leaders, like, encouraging-... like, authoritarian regimes. We want them to encourage more democracy, more freedom, so that we could be like, uh, like you, have the same freedom. So I work for that. The rest of my life, I work for freedom. I don't want my son to be kidnapped. I don't want my son to be hurt. I want him to live a free life, you know, where he could choose where to go, what to do, you know, without fear from retribution because he has different opinion or the government thinks that he's a bad guy. I work a lot on human rights, and I do webinars, and I'm trying to be, you know, just to lead, like, good life, a happy life, welcoming everyone, not caring about political colors or political ideologies.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:26:22

       Man, the world is so much of a better place for having you back in it. I adore your message. I think that the peace and the wisdom and the serenity that you bring to a situation that's still cursed with all of the stuff that you went through is, it's mind-blowing. It's absolutely mind-blowing, and I, I want everybody that's listening to think about the challenges that they have in their life and about the things that they're resentful for, about their housemate that didn't take the bins out last night or about that guy that always parks in their parking space at work or my coffee's a little bit cold or whatever it might be. You know, these things or the people that scorned them in the past. I have chips on my shoulder. I still have chips on my shoulder from teachers in school or from the way that other kids spoke to me or, uh, y- all of this sort of stuff. If you are able to let go of the situation and the experiences that you've been through, there is no excuse for why someone like me, living in the life that I have, in the country that I have, with the politics that we are fortunate to have... Uh, uh, think about the politics. Think about how, (laughs) how vehement and aggressive and forthcoming and self-righteous people are in America and the UK about our, our political system, about the fact that someone wants a slightly different type of tax on the, on companies, income tax or business tax to another person, and again, we compare all of this with what it is that you went through. The contrast effect is such a powerful incentive. When we're exposed to the best of everybody else's life on the internet and on social media every day, it's very easy to forget the normal blessings that we have: the ability to go to the bathroom without being watched, the ability to go to sleep in a dark room that's the right temperature, your freedoms, the fact that you can see your family, that you can see your mother when you want, how you want. Um, man, the world's a significantly better place for having you back in it, and I'm very, very glad that you're here.

   14. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:28:42

       Thank you so much, Chris. You are a very lovely person, and your message is a mes- a very beautiful message. And I'm a better person for hav- having talked to you today and having be- been your guest. And we're gonna see each other. I'm going to go there and bring down the house-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:29:00

       I love it, man. I love it.

   16. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:29:01

       ... in a positive way. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson1:29:02

       I love it. Yeah, exactly. Careful, careful about saying that, okay?

   18. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:29:05

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson1:29:06

       Um (laughs) . God, it's started again. Uh, The Mauritanian, everybody needs to go and check it out. It is available free to stream on Amazon Prime if you've got it. Also, your book will be linked in the show notes below. Man, this has been outstanding. Thank you so much for your time today, brother.

   20. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:29:25

       Thank you so much, and I have another book that came out in, uh, February by the name Ahmed and Zarga. It is a novel, a short novel about Bedouin life. I'm going to send you the link.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:29:36

       I love it. And that's about camels, right?

   22. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:29:38

       Yes. Yeah, you know about it already.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:29:40

       I, uh, don't you worry. I know about it.

   24. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:29:41

       Okay.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:29:41

       I've done my research. Mohamedou, man, I hope to see you in the UK very soon.

   26. MSMohamedou Ould Slahi1:29:46

       Thank you so much, man. Thank you.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:29:48

       Thank you, brother. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy

7. 1:30:00 – 1:30:07

   Section 7

   1. CWChris Williamson1:30:00

      indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:30:07