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Surviving The Great Reshuffle - Jim O'Shaughnessy | Modern Wisdom Podcast 326

Jim O'Shaughnessy is an investor and the founder, Chairman, and Chief Investment Officer of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management. Time, space and geography are collapsing. The richest people on the planet are no longer in charge of labour or buildings, they're symbol manipulators. The skillsets we need today are completely different to what was needed 50 years ago, let alone 500. Jim is here to give us some advice on how we can survive this catastrophic reshuffling. Expect to learn why 2020 was the best thing to happen to talented people in the developing world, the danger of grade-inflation in top flight universities, why we both have a man-crush on Rory Sutherland, why Isaac Newton was a dick and much more... Sponsors: Get over 37% discount on all products site-wide from MyProtein at http://bit.ly/modernwisdom (use code: MODERNWISDOM) Get 20% discount on Reebok’s entire range including the amazing Nano X1 at https://geni.us/modernwisdom (use code MW20) Extra Stuff: Check out Jim's company - https://www.osam.com/ Check out Jim's Podcast - https://www.infiniteloopspodcast.com/ Follow Jim on Twitter - https://twitter.com/jposhaughnessy Rick and Morty and The Meaning Of Life 1 - https://hackernoon.com/rick-and-morty-and-the-meaning-of-life-6640df17e263 Rick and Morty and The Meaning Of Life 2 - https://medium.com/@dan.jeffries/rick-and-morty-and-the-meaning-of-life-part-ii-screw-enlightenment-become-an-adult-instead-e1b2ec832e4e Jim's Superthread - https://twitter.com/jposhaughnessy/status/1343371350493319169 Another Jim Superthread - https://twitter.com/antilibrary_vk/status/1164959690234593280 Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #greatreset #greatreshuffle #finance - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Jim O'ShaughnessyguestChris Williamsonhost
May 27, 20211h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 15:00

    Jim O'Shaughnessy: Chris, I…

    1. JO

      Jim O'Shaughnessy: Chris, I honestly can count on one hand the number of people who I met, whose money we managed, whose goal was to make a lot of money. Not even five. It's actually four, and I remember each one of them because guess what? They are ******* miserable and, and they just... They never have enough and they always want more than the next guy, and they're covetous, and they're jealous, and they're envious. And those are the most destructive sins because you can't have any fun with them. I mean, at least gluttony and, and (laughs) that, you're gonna enjoy it, right?

    2. CW

      (wind blowing) Jim O'Shaughnessy, welcome to the show.

    3. JO

      Christopher, great to see you.

    4. CW

      Great to see you as well. Look at you in your AirPod Pro Max.

    5. JO

      (laughs) So th- th- these changed my life. I got them as a gift. Um, I had the kind of headphones you have on for most of... When we did... Went remote on, uh, Infinite Loops. Those were fine. Um, and my son Patrick was like, "Dad." And you know he's the podcast king, so he's like, "You gotta get these. They'll change your life." They have, like, I don't know how many microphones in them. And when we were testing them... Well, let me put it this way. My wife's a street photographer in Manhattan. I won't talk to her with these on if she's on the street because I hear everything she doesn't hear. They're, like, ridiculously good. And then, uh, my producer was like, "Okay, let's run a test for the mic." He goes, he goes, "I don't even know what to say." He said, "The mic on those is better than the mics that I'm telling people to get for the podcast." So anyway, my wife got them for me for Christmas, so, yeah.

    6. CW

      Good wife. Well-played wife.

    7. JO

      Yes, she played very well. And they are, they are remarkable.

    8. CW

      Yeah, I've got to put... So I've got the Pros. I'm a AirPod evangelist, man. I went... The day that the AirPod Pros came out, I was in the Apple Store. The day that the AirPod Pro Maxes came out, I had a pre-order through a buddy. And, um, I have to say, out of the Pros and the Pro Maxes, I get a lot more use out of the Pros.

    9. JO

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      Reason being that those are... They're a heavy beast to throw around. But you are right. That is a one-unit podcast studio. That and a laptop with full charge, and you can do a podcast from anywhere on the planet, which is pretty incredible.

    11. JO

      Indeed. Yeah, uh, uh, well, you know, maybe we'll talk about it, but I think we're right in the middle of what I call the great reshuffle, and I think we're moving from, uh, being used to and having skill sets designed for the physical world, uh, and we are moving into the digital world, and you need very different skill sets. Um, but as you've just mentioned, time, space, and geography are collapsing, and, um, you know, you're in Newcastle and I don't need any coal, so... (laughs) I don't need to get that.

    12. CW

      (laughs) Dude, I spent this Sunday... I got invited for a coffee from a friend, podcaster, who's also in Newcastle, and he's a local lad, working class, local lad. And I was making jokes about the fact, "Oh, what are we gonna go and do? Are we gonna go and shovel coal?" He took me to a s-... The oldest railway line in the world is in... just outside of Newcastle, and it's still got a functioning steam train. And they're shovel... I shit you not, they're shoveling coal into it. It pulls up outside of the station. The guy's got a flat cap on. He's got, like, black lung, him and his father. His father's lost a couple of vertebrae. It was so realistic. But dude, I, I, I've heard you talk about what you've just mentioned there, this changing of the dynamic which is, uh, offering up opportunities to people with what would have been previously useless, but now very useful characteristics that they have. So someone... I, I saw this meme a while ago. This is so you. I saw a meme a little while ago and it was a guy, a really, sort of, big buff guy in a smart shirt at the front of a Bed Bath & Beyond store.

    13. JO

      (laughs)

    14. CW

      And it just had... It just had this thought bubble coming out the side of his head, and he said, "500 years ago, I would have been a proud warrior."

    15. JO

      Yes. (laughs)

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. JO

      This is... The other... I call it the great unshuffling but the other one that I also use for shorthand is revenge of the nerds. Basically-

    18. CW

      Dude.

    19. JO

      ... what's happening is... And, and that's... That meme... So we could spend the rest of the podcast talking about why memes have the effect they do on people. It's something I've studied a lot of and, and w- we'll get into why. But anyway, that meme nails it, and that's why it's so funny. It's funny because it's true, and, and the whole idea in, in, in... If you looked at the Forbes, uh, 500, the first one they ever did, you know, that's the rich person list. They did the first one, they did it in, I think, 1982. If you looked at that, what you would find is the majority of people on the list inherited their money, okay? The rest of the people on the list made it through physical things, real estate, oil, steel, et cetera. Obviously, uh, we- w- we're not burying the lead 'cause everyone knows who's on that list today, and they are all symbol manipulators. And s- so I've been using that term for a long time because it's what I am, right? I, I don't make anything with my hands. I mean, uh, it's all thought, right? And Bill Gates doesn't make anything. He figured out a way to turn his thoughts into billions and billions of dollars. Because once the thought is on the software, whatever, make one, ship a million, ship 10 million, ship 100 million, doesn't matter. The unit cost of all the other ones is zero. So as we shifted into this digital world... And, and I kind of mark...Maybe 2015, 14, thereabouts, I started to really notice it. And then, so I started talking about it then, but not a lot because a lot of people would look at me like, "Are you barking mad, mate? I mean, what's going on with you?" COVID happened, and, and trends that might have taken maybe as long as a decade got collapsed into a year. So, um, Skype, you know, n- no, no disrespect to Skype, but Zoom comes in and eats s- Skype's lunch. And I found out why that was, by the way. They did it because Skype isn't meant for multiple, uh, participants. Uh, it's great for what we're doing, fantastic. I use Skype all the time to talk to friends all over the world. Um, Zoom is designed to have multiple participants, and the whole experience was designed keeping in mind that people are... that this is not a phone call, right? So mindset meant a lot. But, but the point is, um, ideas about geography, like, so I just hired a new colleague, and he's in, uh, Bangalore, India. And, and so he, he's actually outside of Bangalore, but, but so let me tell you how he is a fantastic example of the trend to digital and what that means. So number one, his opportunity set over the last year exploded open. He was no longer having to look for jobs in his geography. He could look for jobs anywhere in the world. The prejudice against letting people do that evaporated, right? Because of COVID. And so all of a sudden, time, space, geography collapsed. Number two, I didn't look at his CV. His CV was Twitter, and I watched him for nine months. So you go from an accreditation, an imperator from some very high and mighty institution, but all that piece of paper, a diploma, all that says is, "Uh, Jim, this suggests that Jim might be good at this." Really. Um, because, you know, my kids went to really great schools. My daughter went to Yale. My other two went to Notre Dame. I mean, these are really great degrees in the US and they're all very talented, luckily, but, you know, we were talking about it, and, you know, they were talking about grade inflation, especially at places like the Ivies. Everyone gets As. Well, okay. That means no one gets As. But, so it's just the, what peop- the game people started playing was, "I just gotta get in. I gotta get that stamp, that, from the Ivy and I'm gold." In the old days, that was true. Nowadays, your resume or your CV is... You show it every day, uh, on social media, in blogs and podcasts and everything, and it grows. And so the way I look at it, if you were a Bitcoin, uh, aficionado, you'd say, "Proof of work." Well, that's actually what's happening now. So Vatsal, who I hired, he had a long history of proof of work, that he was clever, that he was able in- with technology. All of those things I got to see before even getting on the first Zoom with him. The third thing is, the, the way you think, t- a linear thought process was rewarded in the physical world. A non-linear thought process is going to be rewarded in the digital world, and, uh, we can talk a little bit more about what that means if you want. And then finally, the idea that you, that the leverage the digital world gives you, I mean, Archimedes would be like, "What?" I mean, because I have, I have a lot of friends who are single shops, and the leverage that they can gain through multiple distribution platforms, through, you know, selling or writing course, selling or speaking course, selling or blah, blah. I, I just was on with another Brit, and, uh, who's a very fine guy, and, and he makes all of his money on YouTube. And, uh, so the thing that I found as kind of the, that flipped the switch, so to speak. So Max Planck, the physicist, said famously that, uh, uh, "Progress happens one funeral at a time." Meaning that the old guard has their points of view, not... Very few of them re- retain beginner's mind, and they ossify, and frankly, they're wrong. But they're, they're the ones in the dean's chairs, they're the ones who are determining who gets to go to Oxbridge, uh, you know. So they die off, and then the new ideas replace them, and then repeat, rinse and repeat. That's gone. It's gone because COVID forced the world... This was a world reset. And so it wasn't like it was just the United States that had a lockdown. The UK had a lockdown, Brazil had a lockdown, Bangalore had a lockdown, and so we were all in the same digital boat together. And so it, out of necessity, erased those prior prejudices that would have kicked in absent COVID. So, I mean, and-... the, the other things that it, it has affected are really profound. But it has kicked us into the digital age, I think, maybe five to 10 years before we would have fully been there.

    20. CW

      COVID was the best thing to happen to talented people in the developing world, and the worst thing to happen to talentless people in the developed world.

    21. JO

      Absolutely true.

    22. CW

      Um, I also learned about conceptual inertia from, uh, intellectual ideas historian, a guy called Thomas Moynihan who's just written a history of existential risk. So, the book is The History of X-Risk: Humanity and How It Discovered Its Own Capacity for Extinction. And, um, what he talks about there is that... I can't remember who it is that says, "History doesn't crawl, it leaps," but you do very much get, um... Somebody proposes a new model, heliocentric, uh, universe to geocentric universe change. Um, then people resist the model, then the model actually becomes proven or more people get on board with it, and it actually becomes widely accepted intellectually or even rationally. But the substrate, the source code upon which society is built lags behind so, so, so slowly. The big organizations, the bureaucracies, they take ages to catch up. The litigation, that takes ages to catch up. And then the culture comes along really slow, just lumbering behind. And what you get with that is this conceptual inertia. And, um, yeah, the for-

    23. JO

      I love that term.

    24. CW

      Conceptual inertia, it's awesome. I use it all the time now. Uh, you get the forcing function. If you have this forcing function, it, it doesn't permit anyone anymore. It's tightened the bottleneck so much for all of this stuff. The extraneous shit had to go. It's like if you don't-

    25. JO

      It did.

    26. CW

      ... if you don't understand how to do remote working properly, how to use monday.com, or Notion, or Asana, or whatever team flow program it is that you're using, if you can't do video conferencing. Rory Sutherland already had Zoom Fridays in his company four-plus years ago. Zoom Fridays.

    27. JO

      That doesn't surprise me. So, Rory is a great guy. I'm interviewing him for Infinite Loops on Friday. Uh-

    28. CW

      Your last one with him, your last one with him, I listened to while I was in Dubai as preparation for my one with him. Dude, the guy is a-

    29. JO

      (laughs)

    30. CW

      ... the man is a force of nature.

  2. 15:00 – 30:00

    He's fantastic. …

    1. JO

      one of the best and most skilled reframers of anyone I've ever talked to. He is brilliant. He is brilliant. And in addition, such a lovely man.

    2. CW

      He's fantastic.

    3. JO

      And what a great sense of humor. He's just... I love talking to him. Uh, on, on this point, it's sort of interesting. So, um, uh, for example, Nick Bostrom-

    4. CW

      Yeah.

    5. JO

      ... uh, Existential Risk. I'm sure you're familiar with Nick. He's at Oxford-

    6. CW

      Nostradamus, as he's called. Yeah.

    7. JO

      You're right. So, but, but, he's, he's... you should read him. But who I'd even recommend you read more is a book I reread called The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch, who's a quantum physicist at Oxford. And he does such an incredible job of building the intellectual scaffolding for why when the Enlightenment happened, all of a sudden, we figured a ton of shit out.

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JO

      Because the- he says basically, man, human- humans, we are universal connectors and explainers. And what he means by that is pre the Enlightenment, the gods were in control. Why did this happen? The gods did it. Okay? And then the church, which was representing the gods, they said, "No, no, no. We know because we, we have a line directly to that it was a god." Um, anyway, the Enlightenment came along and they're like, "No. Dare to know." You know? And, and ironically, they used, uh, as, uh, Isaac Newton used, um, uh, as, uh, the, the mo- or the saying for the society, um, uh, the... uh, take no one's word for it. Um-

    10. CW

      You know that- you know that Sir Isaac Newton, when he discovered his theory of gravity, do you know what was happening then?

    11. JO

      I do. The plague.

    12. CW

      Yes.

    13. JO

      Yeah. Well, so I'm a huge fan of Isaac Newton for a variety of reasons.

    14. CW

      Is it because he was weird as hell? Is that why?

    15. JO

      Yes. Yes.

    16. CW

      He's one of the weirdest humans in history. Is that why?

    17. JO

      Absolutely barking mad.

    18. CW

      Totally crazy.

    19. JO

      And, and totally crazy. If you go through (laughs) his, his other books, right? All the other stuff, it's all on alchemy.

    20. CW

      Yeah.

    21. JO

      It's all on, you know... And he was insane.

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. JO

      The other thing that I liked about him was he was a spiteful bugger, so he-

    24. CW

      He used to, like, go to public hangings and stuff, didn't he?

    25. JO

      He loved it. And so at the same time, there was a fellow in Germany named Leibniz who was a dwarf. Okay? But Leibniz was also a genius, and he came up with... basically with calculus, one could argue a little ahead of Newton. Newton was a master of public relations, and he's like, "No, no, no, no, no." Do you know one of his most famous lines, which is, "If I have seen further than others, it was because I was able to stand on the shoulders of giants"?

    26. CW

      Yeah.

    27. JO

      That was a dig at Leibniz. He was... No one knows this, but it's kind of like Andrew Marvell to his coy mistress.And your quaint honor turned to dust, and into ashes all my lust. The grave's a fine and private place, but none, I think, do there embrace. Do you know what quaint was Elizabethan slang for? The woman's genitals. (laughs) So when you notice-

    28. CW

      It was a low-key dig.

    29. JO

      But perfect because it, it met its target. It was not a weapon of mass destruction. It was a smart bomb. And it, he, the only one who got it-

    30. CW

      (laughs)

  3. 30:00 – 45:00

    That- Well, it would…

    1. JO

      writer. Very much to the left. I used to follow him, um, when he was the lead writer for the Rolling Stone, because I think one should... So, my own version is I don't have a party. I, I'm... The only thing that defines me is I'm fiercely anti-authoritarian of either the left or the right.I, I, I just ... It always leads to bad things, in my opinion, if you study history. So, but my op- I mean, like, if I went through my political opinions, some people, depending on the order in which I listed them, some people would say, "You're a left-winger!" Um, other people would say, "What? That's a right-wing thought." And, and so ... Ugh. I'll just give you a couple of for-instances. So, I think all drugs should be legal, um, because the war on drugs is a sham, and it has corrupted so many different levels of our societies that ... I mean, Portugal is a great example. They basically decriminalized. They didn't make them legal. But, uh, guess what happened? You know, like all of the bad crime, all that just went plunging. I think that all, uh, non-violent drug, uh, uh, offenders in prison should be released. I mean, that was like, they were saying to me when Trump lost, and they were saying, "What would be his big fuck you to everybody?" And I said, "If I was his advisor ..." And, and believe me, no fan of Donald Trump, so I, if, if he asked me to be his advisor, I'd say, "Fuck off." But, but if I was, if I was gonna be able to be a, whisper something in his ear, it would have been, "Pardon every non-violent person in prison on a drug charge." Can you imagine-

    2. CW

      That- Well, it would have put such a stone in the shoe of everyone, right? Because they would have thought, "Hang on, this is so disjointed from what we, we thought that he would have done."

    3. JO

      Yeah, exactly.

    4. CW

      Yeah, man. I mean, dude, when you're talking about that, this sort of nuance of opinions, this is Jordan Peterson-ism from years ago. He said it in the interview with the GQ lady. I can't remember her name. They sent Cathy Newman away, put her on a short course of steroids and training, and she ca-

    5. JO

      (laughs)

    6. CW

      ... she came back having read a little bit more, uh, sort of enlightenment philosophy and that, you know the one that I mean.

    7. JO

      I do.

    8. CW

      Uh, where they didn't, they didn't-

    9. JO

      It was the last-

    10. CW

      ... turn his microphone on and all that sort of stuff. And he said in that-

    11. JO

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      ... and this is the first time that I heard it and I, I've never got rid of it. He said, "If I know one of your perspectives, and from it, I can accurately predict everything else that you believe, then you're not a, a serious thinker." It's very unlikely ... There is no reason in hell that your view on abortion should be impacted by your view on immigration, or your view on the level of corporate tax, or your view on gun rights.

    13. JO

      (laughs)

    14. CW

      But because we've lumped these things together, you end up with an increasingly partisan level of politics that then gets fueled by a media that needs to drive clicks. Clicks are driven by an algorithm, which is enforced by things that you either really hate or really agree with. And it's, uh, when people say, well, like ... I, I often get asked on other shows, "Wh- why, why are we becoming increasingly polarized?" I'm like, "How can we not be?"

    15. JO

      Right.

    16. CW

      How, how ... It would be so unbelievable if we weren't-

    17. JO

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      ... up against all of this.

    19. JO

      So, so, we know a lot about algorithms. That's what we do. Uh, the algorithms for traditional media are, are optimized for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And it's much easier to, to outrage people, so they are, they're maxed out on outrage items on both sides, right? Um, and, and they keep people ... I, I've, I've likened it to an emotional plague. And because what's happened is, we haven't given up on religion, we just changed the pews, right? So, the new religion is politics and total compliance with the belief talking points, if you will, is the price you must pay to be thought of as a good person, right?

    20. CW

      Or you're a heretic.

    21. JO

      I'm like ... I'm a heretic. I, I proudly call myself a heretic. I'm an apostate. Come at me. Do whatever you want. But this also happens because I don't give a fuck what people think about me. I, I don't, I don't want to offend people. And by that I mean, look, I've been so lucky and so blessed in life, and like, one of the things that I enjoy doing is working with people, uh, uh, younger people especially, not just in my field, but in a bunch of fields. I like this idea of teach- ... You know, Tren Griffith, who I just did a podcast with yesterday and he flipped it on me and he started interviewing me, but he's got this great idea, which is, fits in with karma, but he, he calls it give to get. And what he means is, if he can only teach one lesson to a younger person, it's give and don't expect or hope for getting from ... So, let's say I give to you, Chris, and the wrong way to think about it is, "Now, goddamn it, Chris owes me something." That's reciprocity, right? And, uh, it's in the book Influence and everybody knows about it. Tren's take on this, and Rory, I'm gonna ask him about it on Friday because I can, I, I already know what he's gonna say. But, um, Tren's take is, "No, no, no, no, no. Karma, you put it out. And it, it ... you know what? It might not come back from Chris. In fact, Chris might do something really dastardly to you. It comes back, though." The wheel of karma just keeps going round and round and round, and you build good karma or bad karma and it comes back. And now, if you wanna make that much less mystic, you're programming your brain and you don't even know it, right? So, we- we're all meta-programmers of our own brain, and we program our brains with the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And so, if you're putting a lot of bad karma out there, what your brain is doing is it's going, "Oh. Okay, he likes bad. I will oblige him."

    22. CW

      The algorithm, the algorithm is being reinforced.

    23. JO

      Yes. "I will oblige him. He, he thinks the world is an ugly, uh, place full of trouble and strife?"... that's what I'm gonna serve up for them because my reticular activating system, you know, if I was talking to a neurobiologist, that's what he'd talk about or she'd talk about. If I were talking to one of these enlightenment people, they would say karma. But it's- it's not this mystic thing. It's- it's programming, and you're self-programming yourself every day, and that's how that all comes about. It's like, I have, like, four questions. I wrote a piece called... A long thread, actually, a series of threads called The Thinker and the Prover, and it's on an old model, uh, by a guy by the name of, uh, Leonard Orr. Um, and he, and he separates the brain into the thinker and the prover. And the thinker can think anything he wants. It can think three impossible things before breakfast, as the Queen said to Alice in the Wonderland series. Uh, but once the thinker has thought it out and latched on, "I believe this," that's another reason why I present all of my ideas as hypotheses or thesis, because the minute you say, "I believe," what your brain hears is, "This is true." And not only is, this is true, but this defines you as a human being, and that story starts revving up. But, so what happens is, back to politics, right? So let's say... Well, take me as an example. I am in favor of a woman's right to have an abortion. Uh, I am opposed to capital punishment because I don't think the state should be able to have the right to take a human being's life.

    24. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JO

      Uh, but I also think that, um, the- the taxes done wrongly will actually get less revenue for the government than more. That's- that's kind of a classic right-wing point of view. The others are kind of classic left-wing's point of view. Immigration. I think, and I... Man, do I stir the hornet's nest when I put this up on Twitter or say it in a podcast. I think that the United States right now, still, still, after everything, has a huge advantage that other countries don't have. And that is, the smartest people in the world want to live and work here. And my idea is we should let them! And that means if they come here to go to university and... You know, so I do it, I stage it, and first I say STEM degrees, right? Science, technology, et cetera. We should staple a green card to it and say, "Welcome to America. Go create." And- and yet because of this- this whole orthodoxy, the- the- and- and label thinking... That's the other thing that drives me mad. People are l- We're word thinkers, and labels negate us. And- and- and so the minute you label something, you know, Rules for Radicals, that's what he says. Label, personalize it. Stalin knew this. Stalin was... One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. You- People are simply not gonna get worked up over a million deaths, but when it's Ivan who you know, and you know his daughter and his wife, that's gonna really rev you up. So the point being, though, that traditional media knows what's happening, and all of their best people, Sam Harris, uh, Matthew, uh, a ton of, like, first-rate writers, um-

    26. CW

      But didn't you look at Substack at the moment? Matthew Yglesias has just left Vice, which was already a splinter off from the legacy media world that started to come alongside but they never kind of really were, and they got a TV show, and it's still... But they were already a heterodox organization, and he said, "No, this is- this is still too bureaucratic for me. I'mma go- I'mma go do a Substack."

    27. JO

      Yep. And that is what's gonna happen. Writ large. And it also explains why you see this hysteria among the traditional media. Because worldwide, well, especially in- in, uh, America and- and the UK, um, there was a deal. And the deal was, "I'm gonna be a journalist. I'm not gonna make gobs of money, but I'm gonna have influence, and I'm gonna get to know all these important people and influence these important people." And it was a trade, you know, the hierarchy of needs, that a lot of very smart, switched-on people made. Going away. It's going away. And so Substack, that's the future. And- and, you know, we'll have- we'll have our own channels, right? So I'm a big believer in reading people that I know I'm gonna disagree with, just because I'm probably wrong, right? That's the other thing that it drives people crazy when I say this. But, I mean, empirically speaking, look at history. Look at what the s- Back to our friend Isaac Newton. Look at what Isaac Newton believed, and with ex- the exception of that gem about, uh, physics and calculus, e- every one of his beliefs were wrong. They were wrong. And he was the smartest guy on the planet, Leibniz notwithstanding. Uh, but the point is, when you have context, right? It's like people getting all worked up about, in this country, Thomas Jefferson. "Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Tear down all his statues." D- uh, d- you know, "Boo this man." Okay. Let's put some context in. Let's understand that as horrible as slavery was and is, an abomination and something that all throughout human history was practiced widely. Um, go all the way back to the- the helots in Sparta and the slaves in Greece. They actually had a more enlightened attitude about it than we- uh, than we in the West did because they- you could make them free. And S- uh, you know, some of the greatest stoics were- started life as slaves. And so-... as the world progressed and we became more sensible, in my opinion, right? Slavery, that's an abomination. We, 600,000 Americans died over it. Um, the, the, the most, uh, uh, the highest death count of any American war, any war we've ever engaged in, including our little spat with our friends from-

    28. CW

      It was the one against yourselves.

    29. JO

      ... uh, the UK. (laughs) It was the one against ourselves. It was brother against brother, and 600,000 Americans died for an idea. And that idea was slavery is an abomination. It has to be, it must be abolished. And, and then what happened? Well, as you said earlier in our, in our conversation, the cultural belief, that, that layer, for a lot of people, even enlightened people, and this is what I wanna emphasize here, even for the most enlightened people, they still had these awful beliefs in their head, right? Because they, they had grown up in, in a world that was described... Have you read Cloud Atlas by, um... now I'm blanking on his name. But anyway-

    30. CW

      I've watched the movie.

  4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

    One view, extrapolate out.…

    1. JO

      with death, with brain death. If, if you, a- your point about, um-

    2. CW

      One view, extrapolate out.

    3. JO

      ... i- if you can... Yeah.

    4. CW

      Yeah.

    5. JO

      If... I'm, I'm really not interested in talking to you because I, I don't think I can change your mind. That's another one of my beliefs. I can't change you, Chris. Only you can change you. I can help you if you're looking for that kind of help. But if you're not, I'm not gonna help at all. Maybe someone else will. But that has to come from within. And, and once I really realized that, it... You know, I'm not so smart. It took me a while to get all this stuff. But I, I was working with an employee and I'm kind of like, you know, he just kept making the same mistake, same mistake, same mistake. And I got really frustrated until I finally figured out I can't change him. Until he wants to change this, nothing will change. And in fact, he will dig in. He will dig in on the thing I'm trying to change. So I was doing him a disservice trying to get him to see the light. (laughs) Wh- when you are, when you are mired in a belief system that you tie to yourself, you literally can't see the light because your brain, these wonderful quantum computers that we carry around with us, have amazing abilities to say, "Nope, nope, nope." And if... Do I agree with it? Yup, yup, yup. And so people are honestly surprised when something that they deeply believe is proved fundamentally wrong, and they will go to massive lengths to deny it. Flat Earth Society, my friend, uh, Tim Urban, who has Wait But Why, he has a great story about this. So there's a movie about the Flat Earth Society, right? So today, in 2021, with all of the photographs that we have from space and from the moon (laughs) and from all of our satellites showing the sort of round, not really round, but sort of round world on which we make our lives of interesting things-

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. JO

      And, and, and they will basically invent anything to tell you you're wrong. "No, you were hypnotized by aliens. This is all fake." And what's interesting is, when you're trying to convince people of deeply wrong beliefs, the best place to go and study is cults. Because cults have this down to a science. And, and here's the other thing that I often say and people don't believe me. You wanna know who the easiest people to fool are? The smartest people. Why are the smartest people the easiest to fool? Because they're smart. Because they understand... They know. Like, people always say, "Well, I'm not smart." They know they're smart. Come on. You know? And so their brain is like, "I am smart. I will automatically see all of the bullshit that they're trying to sling at me." (laughs) No, you won't. No, you won't. That's the way that they get their hooks in. It's like one of the best stories is one of the biggest... Not biggest, but one, one of the most interesting victims of the Bernie Madoff scam was a guy who published a book about how cons work and how to avoid them. (laughs) It's just, like, perfect. You can't make this shit up. And so the other thing that's interesting about smart people...What else are smart people good at? Smart people are really good at building bulletproof narratives that they first convince themself of, I think, you know, and whatever. And, and, and then so they, they keep iterating on that narrative until it's, like, pretty bulletproof. And then they go and convince a bunch of other people because they're smart. And so one of my heroes, uh, Richard Feynman, the physicist, like, the quote I use all the time is, "The first rule is you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." It's like, this whole behavioral finance thing. I know that I would fall for every single one of those biases. I know I would. I, I know myself well enough so that I, yeah. Oh, yeah. (laughs) So what did I do? It's like, a friend did this survey about behavioral biases, and he talked to a bunch of investors or advisors, et cetera. And the question was, "What is your biggest behavioral bias and how do you deal with it?" And a lot of my friends, you know, they said, uh, you know, co- uh, confirmation bias, survivorship bias, et cetera. And they went into these long... "And this is what I do to deal with it," and blah, blah, blah. And, and my answer was simple. "What is your biggest behavioral bias?" And I said, "Being a human being." (laughs) And it said, "How do you solve for it?" "I'm a quant." (laughs) So does that leave out a lot? Am I leaving knowledge potentially that I, is not available to me as a quant? You bet I am. You bet I am. But the idea is the trade-off, the base rate, if you will, directionally is good because virtually all of the greatest meltdowns ever... And I, boy, I've been around for a lot of them. Take super, super smart people, give them leverage, basically unlimited leverage, and... (imitates explosion) (laughs)

    8. CW

      Well, one of the, one of my favorite mental models or biases is to never multiply by zero. And God, I try and tell the boys this all the time. I have a, about 500 guys and girls that work for me for my events company between the age of 18 and 22. And there are essentially an unlimited number of zeros to multiply by when you're that age, and, um, just trying to highlight a couple of those. Texting while you drive. Like, tell me, tell me what you're gaining. What is the play stupid games, win stupid prizes, li- right? Like, what's the prize that you're getting for texting while you drive? Unprotected sex on a one night stand. But tell me, tell me. That's, that is a big fat zero that you're going to multiply there, my friend. You can have spent the last four years of your life saving up your money. You've got your mortgage deposit ready for the house. You're gonna buy a house quicker than anybody else that you know. You're ready to move away. You've got, the visa's even sorted. You've got this perfect graduate job out in America. That's 100 times, 150 times, 2,000 times I just got someone pregnant, and I'm 22 years old.

    9. JO

      Zero. (laughs)

    10. CW

      That's an 18 year, that's an 18-year, quarter-of-a-million-pound liability that you've just created there. Zero.

    11. JO

      Amazing.

    12. CW

      You can spend all the time that you want in the gym, working on my body. I'm doing my nutrition. I'm sleeping right. I'm eating right. I'm drinking. I'm watching. I'm working hard on my form. I'm doing my prehab and my rehab. I'm rolling my body out. I decide to ride a bicycle without a helmet, or I decide to text while I drive. If, if you're very dead, it doesn't matter how fit you are.

    13. JO

      (laughs)

    14. CW

      That's a big fat zero. And, um, yeah, this is one of the- the- the unknown catastrophes that we can encounter are inherently catastrophic. And it's, you don't see it until it happens. And it's only with the benefit of hindsight. A good example (laughs) of this. I ruptured my Achilles playing cricket last year. It was the first time that I'd played cricket in 10 years since I'd played for a-

    15. JO

      (laughs)

    16. CW

      I'd played for a decade, took a decade off, went back. First game, went into bat, was in bat for 15 minutes, loving it. Dad was over the far side. Dad was great 'cause he always used to come to the games. Ping, Achilles goes. Ended up being not too bad of a thing, actually. Quite an interesting personal development strategy. But at the time, I just thought, "You're a fucking idiot."

    17. JO

      (laughs)

    18. CW

      "Of course this is gonna happen. You haven't, you haven't played a plyometrically, uh, demanding athletic sport in a decade, and you thought that at 32 years old, you would just be able to get back into it." And one of my friends said one of the most common ways that he sees people get injured that, uh, in his friend group, our age group, is people that used to play a sport when they were a kid getting back into it about 10 years later. So this is a public service announcement to everybody. Just do-

    19. JO

      (laughs)

    20. CW

      ... do six weeks of training. Condition yourself back into it. Do not think that you can do the things that you used to be able to do 10 years ago.

    21. JO

      Oh, man. I'm gonna just steal so much stuff from you. Uh, I love the never multiply by zero. That's fantastic. Um-

    22. CW

      Talk to me. Let's-

    23. JO

      ... and, and I love that-

    24. CW

      Le- l- I want, I, before we finish up, I've got a couple of threads open in my mind. I really want-

    25. JO

      Please.

    26. CW

      ... you to try and... How would you prepare for the reshuffling? You know you have preppers out there, like the, the doomsday preppers. You guys in America love them. And they've got their bunkers underground. The reshuffling is occurring. The talents which previously served us are no longer the ones that we can utilize in this world. That's basically what the reshuffling is talking about, right? That what-

    27. JO

      Yes.

    28. CW

      ... used to be a competitive advantage no longer is. And in this new world, we need to have new modes of thinking. We need to have new skills. What would you do? I take 30 years off your life. What would you do now?

    29. JO

      Yeah. Yeah, so what I would do is I would watch broadly and read broadly. Just, like, if I was going to even use a metric to decide what I wanted to read, I would find people that I resonated with on social media, and I would, I would take their recommendations.... and if they said, "Hey, read The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch," I would read that book. And I would, I, I would learn to be endlessly curious because Dorothy Parker was an American wit, uh, had a wonderful, uh, quote which is, um, "Curiosity is the cure for boredom. There is no cure for curiosity." And, and if you can... and, and I find that it becomes almost a habit. So if you start getting curious about something, that makes you curious about other things, and so on and so on. I use the John Cleese from Monty Python "and so on and so on" gif when I'm doing it on Twitter. But activate your mind. And this sounds like pedestrian information, but I can't tell you how many people that I've given this advice to and they're like, "Really?" And I'm like, "Yeah, really." Like, university? That wasn't your education. That was a certification and a socialization process which you probably benefited from, by the way. Um, but now, now that you've articulated, now your education begins, right? And so consume as much as you possibly can, intellectually speaking. So listen to your podcasts, listen to mine, listen to somebody who... like listen to Sam Harris because you li- you learned by listening to Chris's podcast that Sam Harris is an honest broker because he's at risk. "Oh, that's interesting. I think I'm gonna subscribe to Sam Harris and I'm gonna listen to..." I subscribe, by the way. Um, and, and so the second thing, keep... This is so hard. Don't become prematurely certain, right? Everybody just see it immediately, like they see one thing about whatever, um, one of the issues we were discussing, and, and, "I'm certain that this is right." No, you're not. No, you're not. And, and th- that leads to what I call deterministic thinkers, right? So we're deterministic thinkers living in a probabilistic world. That world just got a fuck ton more probabilistic because we now... it's a universe, right? And I get to, I get to talk to Chris and say, "Hey, uh, I'm looking for somebody in the UK 'cause I wanna do this and you got..." "I got right, I got just the guy for you." I Skype with him, I give him the job, it's done because you showed me the... or you recommended him, you see his record. So, so the idea that, that you need or even want, in a weird way, some imperator from an institution, that's going away, and your imperator is you, right? So, so I would do that. I would really... If, if you took 30 years off me, I would learn how to program because that is such an amazing skill, and elite programmers, which I know a lot about now because of what we're doing at OSAM and, and friends and things, man, it is a, it's a, it's a power law. It's not, it's not like an arithmetic thing. When, when you are 10 times better in programming than this guy down here, it, it can't even begin. You're not even talking about the same universe, right?

    30. CW

      Are you talking about capacity to make money, ability to see the world, happiness? What are you optimizing for here?

  5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

    Yeah. …

    1. JO

      also the UK. It's a little different. It's certainly much different in some Asian... I travel a lot, so I've been to, you know, Bhutan and I've been to Nepal, and I think it's great 'cause I, I think the more you learn, the better. See? What am I optimizing for? I'm optimizing for learning.

    2. CW

      Yeah.

    3. JO

      And, and, and if you optimize for that, the rest kind of takes care of itself. And by that I mean... So I'm an asset manager. I've been an asset manager since I was 27 years old. So I've been a, I've been a fiduciary all my life, all my adult life. Chris, I honestly can count on one hand the number of people who I met whose money we managed whose goal was to make a lot of money. Not even five. It's actually four, and I remember each one of them because guess what? They are fucking miserable, and, and they just... They never have enough, and they always want more than the next guy, and they're covetous, and they're jealous, and they're envious. And those are the most destructive sins because you can't have any fun with them.... I mean, at least gluttony and, and that, you're gonna enjoy it, right? So, so everyone else other than those four, everyone else became rich by doing something that fascinated them, or that they were really good at. So, you know, we have some pro... some professional sports people. They were just so good at it, they were optimized for it, and, you know, they were built for it, they... lovely gene structure, right? But they, they pursued it. They, they didn't make that rookie mistake that you made.

    4. CW

      Multiply by zero, yeah.

    5. JO

      They were like... Yeah, yeah. They were like, "Oh, no, no, no. Been injured. Not gonna do that."

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. JO

      So, so but every one of them, and they come from a wide variety of fields, they were obsessed, almost, with something, and they just wouldn't give u- they wouldn't give up. They just kept going, they kept going, they kept going. And guess what? As a side effect of that, they were like some of the happiest people I've ever met in my life. It's like, I'm a very cheerful person, you know, despite Jed McKenna, because I kinda get to do whatever the fuck I wanna do, and that's wonderful. And-

    8. CW

      Here's something for you, here's something for you, I want to interject there.

    9. JO

      Sure.

    10. CW

      A lot of the time when I speak to people, um, I see a combination of a number of different things happening: survivorship bias and, and, um, a narrow world view from people who sit in a position, perhaps where you are now, where you have degrees of freedom, wealth generally, lack of boss, headroom above you to do the things you want, et cetera, et cetera. And I often wonder about whether or not their advice, how applicable their advice is to people who are before them, right?

    11. JO

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      Because the person who has the things can talk about the model that they think should be pursued. But hang on a second, is that how you got to where you are now? Is that the way that you went through that? What are your sort of thoughts around this? Uh, is there a period, is there a grind reel that people need to go through between sort of 20 and 40, something like that?

    13. JO

      So again, really great question. I'm gonna be stealing a lot of your questions and y... when I have people on my podcast.

    14. CW

      My pleasure.

    15. JO

      Um, so yes. There is a grind period. But to answer your question, I did things in a very unorthodox way. I started O'Shaughnessy Capital Management without any backers. And I believed that if I got this book, uh, It's What Works on Wall Street is propping up my computer here, if I got this book published, that would make my career. So I, I was, I z- I, like, locked onto that. "How can I make that so?" Um, and that's a fun story, and it required a lot more than you might think. But to people looking outside at me, in, say, the ages between 27 and, say, 45, they would've said, "Man, Jim's u- just a grinder. That's all he's doing. He's just grind, grind, grind. Man, he's on a plane all the time. I don't want that life. That's awful." You know? To me, it was like, I was doing what I loved. And, and so I think you need to... you need to look at what is the... what is the platform on which we are viewing this individual? Are we viewing them from the outside? Do we understand that what looks like a super bad grind to us is actually, like, sparking joy in them?

    16. CW

      Dude, let me tell you. You, you brought Tim Cook up earlier on. I was sat down with one of the head branding guys for Apple in the UK.

    17. JO

      Mm.

    18. CW

      It was the first... Uh, uh, we've been shut down for ages. It was the first lunch that I had in, like, six months that wasn't made by me. Um, and we sat down, and he was telling me this story about, about Tim. And, uh, he was at this private, super, triple-A level and above employee seminar thing out in America-

    19. JO

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      ... and Tim's giving this, Tim's giving this talk. And, um, someone asked a question to do with the passion, should I follow what I really love? Should I do what feels fun to me? Um, uh, "I'm trying to do that, but the work, the work is hard. Uh, I, I, I thought that following your passion was supposed to be easy." And Tim said, "No, no, no. Following your passion will be the hardest thing that you will do in your life." He said, "You will have to lift the heaviest weight that you have ever lifted, but the tools will feel light."

    21. JO

      Wonderful. Wonderful. Tim is absolutely right. It's so funny, you know, I'm feeling Jungian, Jungian synchronicities here because we were having this conversation last night about... with my wife about, you know, why Apple, why, why, why do I still think Apple's great? And I said, "Because it's a whole different deal. Tim Cook's tools, uh, have to be, by necessity, they're different than Steve Jobs' tools." And I so vibe with that statement because it's true. I mean, listen, Chris, I worked crazy hours. Here's another one that I often say, and I can tell by just looking at the person, I know you'll get it because you... this is the kinda guy you are, but think like an owner. If you can think like an owner as opposed to an employee, you retain... you just naturally retain much more agency within yourself. You retain much more responsibility within yourself. You don't blame other peoples when you fuck up. You fucked up-And that's the other thing that I tell people who are kind of afraid to fail. I do not know, including these four miserable fucks who only wanted to be rich, I do not know a single person who is rich who didn't fail, m- sometimes spectacularly, and it was all in how they reacted to that. So, I f- I mean, I have a whole list, right? I, I, it, I put it up sometimes, it's um, "Mistakes were made and yes, by me." (laughs) And, and the way I look at it is, I learned so much from those failures that I couldn't have gone to the next level of where I went in my career without learning that, right? So, think like an owner. It's hard for people to think that way, because it just is, but the, the, the, the quote from Tim Cook is absolutely right. What looks and feels at the time, like, oh, you know ... Sometimes, and we're all human beings, right? Sometimes when you're sitting in a hotel, huh, I remember I had to do an actual book tour for my third book, How to Retire Rich, which, by the way, was the only book that I wrote for a general audience, and I was on Oprah Winfrey for it, and that was a trip. And, uh, anyway, but this, the grind was like deadly. It was like morning you gave a talk and a breakfast, and then you did a talk and a lunch, and then you were, did TV, and then you got on a plane and went to the next market. Insane. Like, that mentality, that was 1997. My miracle year, as Tren Griffith would say. And, and so at the end, I'm like, "Okay, I just, I, I, I don't think I can eat another powdered egg." I, you know, I- I- I just, I just can't, but then I would just like rev myself up, because I'm like, I would just remind myself, "Dude, you were just on Oprah Winfrey, man." (laughs) You have women coming up to you in airports going, "Are you Jim O'Shaughnessy?"

    22. CW

      (laughs)

    23. JO

      (laughs) And that's cool. That's cool. And so looking from without, there was a lot of woe is me, "Oh, I'm not home," and you know, I came home every weekend 'cause my kids were young and I wanted to see my kids, and that was a deal breaker for me. And so other people would say, "Well, but that just added to it." No. Get when you are doing that grind, when you are lifting that heavy weight, and the tools are light, one of the things you've got to think about too is, you can put provisos and heretofores, if we're gonna get legalistic in here, into your own game plan. One of my provisos was, I don't care where I am on this three-week national tour and Canada, I am gonna be home Friday afternoon, get my kids at school, spend the weekend with them, fly out Sunday night.

    24. CW

      Yeah.

    25. JO

      And it was that hard on me? Sure, maybe. I was probably in a beautiful place like Whistler in Canada, and maybe I just wanted to hang, but it was more important that I had that built into the deal, because that was more important to me. And, and so I can hear somebody right now listening and saying, "Well, fuck, you know, I work for whatever, Lloyds or ... And you know, they, uh, they have this social media. They, I have to be anonymous and..." Okay, be anonymous. Doesn't matter. Uh, Jesse Livermore, one of the most brilliant guys in markets that I have ever met, he's an OSAM partner, uses our data and writes these incredible pieces. I had a guy call me from, um, uh, one of the most prestigious universities in the United States, and he was like, "Dude, will you tell that guy that if he's gonna do that again, to submit an application for a PhD in finance and he'll get it?" (laughs) With that- with- that would be his thesis. He's anonymous. Nobody knows who he is. And now we're coming full circle back to this new age, right? Qui- quality of Jesse's work is everything. You could... And the other thing that's interesting about, uh, being anonymous is remember that messenger messen- uh, hating the messenger, and, and so therefore hating the message? They, they, if you hate him, you don't hate him, 'cause you don't have any idea who the hell he is, but you hate his message. Okay, that's fine. That's fair game. But, so d- the last thing I would say is don't spend... If... I'm a huge fan of writing with your hand. There's, there's reasons for why this works.

    26. CW

      And you're a lefty too.

    27. JO

      I am. Yes. And so if you want to know the fastest way to know whether you know something or not, try to write it out. Because (laughs) if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, it will show up on the page, and you'll be like, "Oh, I thought I knew this." No, you didn't know it. And so like another thing that I do is I, I reck- uh, I- I recommend that. Like, people come to me and they're like, "How do I do this? Like, I have all of these liabilities or these perceptions of a ceiling." And I'm like, "Perception is reality, man." If, if you believe... And I cannot tell you the number of people that I've worked with on this and, and the ones that got it soared, right? They put themselves in their own prison of their beliefs, right? And it's hard to come up with an escape plan if you don't know you're in jail. And, and so when you work with them and you have them write things out, they're like-... I can't believe I just wrote this down, that I believe this. This is like bullshit. Why would I ever believe this? So, so write. Write about what you want to be. Write about how you get there. Uh, is everyone going to make it? No. I mean, that's the way the world works. And, and, you know, the other thing finally, retain your agency. Uh, Timothy Leary, who was vilified in this country, the perfect scapegoat, uh, he actually was a very brilliant professor at Harvard but he also, kind of like Isaac Newton, liked the limelight, he liked the people talking about him. And so Nixon was like, "Oh, I'm gonna make all of those non-addictive drugs Class I, and you're gonna go to Fed max for using them." And finally that bit of ridiculousness is going away, and they're finding miraculous recoveries from like PTSD and, and everything else. Anyway, Leary was a, a psychologist who was actually pretty gifted, and, and so he said, "We get imprinted at a certain age, and it's very difficult to undo that imprint later on." As you might guess, Leary suggested that LSD might be a very good agent to help you un-imprint, and actually they're finding that in the research they're doing, particularly with veterans with PTSD. Miraculous recoveries, and how any sane individual could be against this, I just don't know. These people like literally tried to kill themselves. But, but so what he said was, "You get imprinted

  6. 1:15:00 – 1:21:59

    (laughs) …

    1. JO

      with a loser script or a winner script." The loser script, what do they do? "Chris, it's your fault." It's y- let's, let's say I suck at this podcast and, and people are laughing and, "Jim had an off day," you know, "He was pretty stupid." The loser script is, "That was Chris's fault." And, "I, I, it was 'cause of Skype. I didn't like Skype. I like Zoom. And, and I was hungry." Ba- ba- ba- ba- ba- ba- ba- ba- ba- and you, it just, you're just gonna see this laundry list, everything but me. That's a loser script. And if you can figure that out... And there are ways, by the way, to reverse that. And, and if you maintain your agency, is the easiest way I've found, which means you gotta own it. You can own the success but you also gotta own the total, total snafu. And, and when you do that, it's uncomfortable, and it's like Teddy Roosevelt, one of our presidents, had this great thing about the man in the arena. Now we would say the human being or the man or the woman in the arena. And it's scary as hell, honestly. I'm, I just subscribed to a friend, he finally decided he's gonna write for Substack and charge people. And so I'm DMing with him on Twitter, and he's like, "I am terrified that I'm gonna fail." And I'm like, "Dude, you took the first step which takes a lot of courage. Just, just keep leaning into it now." Like, I'll amplify you, I'll say, "Guess what? I just subscribed too, and I think you should too." Um, and, and so I'm not, I'm not saying that this is easy. It's not. I mean, yeah, it'd be great, right, if like... What, what's the joke, the meme about, uh, you know, uh, get money, uh, make it a zillion, bro down, you know, sell it. Uh, that isn't the way the world works, man. And you know, you're an entrepreneur, you know that. And, and like my old joke was, I would be perfect if I didn't ever have to employ or deal with another human being (laughs) .

    2. CW

      (laughs)

    3. JO

      Including me, by the way (laughs) .

    4. CW

      Man, there's so much there at the very end. I'm trying to t- I'm trying to sort of wrangle it all together. Um, we're finite creatures surrounded by infinite complexity, so it makes sense that you're going to be scared. It makes sense that you're going to be concerned of things, because inevitably you're in a battle against entropy that you can't win.

    5. JO

      That's right.

    6. CW

      In the end, entropy is going to win out. But my Twitter bio is correct, we locally reverse it, we locally reverse entropy. Uh, talking about writing, the importance of writing, forcing your thoughts into words, when you have something that's in your head, if you don't have an outlet like a podcast, or a friend that you can have a deep meaningful conversation with for 30 minutes once every week, which is a prescription I give, or a, a journal practice, morning pages, or whatever it is. Um, if you don't have that, all of your thoughts are just notions, they're these ephemeral clouds and you can't grasp them, they're not concrete. And if reading Nineteen Eighty-Four taught us anything, it's that the quality of your language is directly proportional to the quality of your thoughts, because without the words to describe the things you're thinking, the things you're thinking stay inside of your own head, and you don't even understand them in terms of they're concrete for yourself. So that's important as well. Um, talking about taking the leap and just sort of jumping and learning to fly on the way down, I'm someone... I- I haven't had a massive amount of failures. I'm, um, prudent, my, I, I'm a very, very sort of, uh, prudent businessman, the way that I make my entrepreneurial decisions always errs towards the side of caution. And, um, I think I have something to learn there, I'm not really too sure what it is yet. I feel like I have something to, to learn, some sort of insight to learn around, around failing or around pushing harder, failing faster. I'm not really too sure what that is yet. Um, but man, this, we could go on for forever and ever-

    7. JO

      (laughs)

    8. CW

      ... and we will do it again. It's been too long to get you booked in, but I won't make it this long for the next one. Uh, Infinite Loops Podcast.... what else should people check out?

    9. JO

      Infinite Loops Podcast. Uh, check out OSAM, Oscar, Sam, Adam, Mary.com. That's where all of these, uh, research pieces that we do have a home. Uh, check out, um, Canvas. W- You can get to it through OSAM. Uh, we didn't even talk about that and (blows raspberry) that's the way the world's going. Uh, I, I, uh, we're in the fast lane of asset management, and we got a Maserati. And, uh, it's unbelievable watching this explosive growth. It's customization. And if you've ever had a bespoke suit, um, y- you don't wanna buy one off the rack anymore. (laughs) Uh, so that's a whole different conversa- We could do an entire podcast about that because that's what we see coming. Um, and once you, once you understand that you can get, treat it like you're on Savile Row, but you're paying Joseph A. Bank's prices, that's a pretty nice deal. Um, so, um, check out Canvas when you're there. That's interesting. Um, and then my son, uh, Patrick, he has, like... So he has an enterprise that I have nothing to do with, Colossus it's called. It's all his. He came up with it. He's killin' it over there. But the reason I suggest it is because what it's becoming is like... if you want to know about... You fill it in. You go over to Colossus, you type your search term in. Whoop! Up come any podcast where there's a domain expert on it. Up come the transcript. Up come com- "We think you should read this." I said to him the other night at dinner, "You, you, you're chasing all the MBA programs out," right? "You're, here's another digital world," right? Because the leverage that is inherent in that, especially for young people. Go over to colossus.com, and I'm sure you have some kinda passion. Guess what? There's gonna be a domain expert who is really compelling and what to read. So check that out too.

    10. CW

      Jim O'Shaughnessy, ladies and gentlemen. I will catch you next time.

    11. JO

      Cheers. Thanks, Chris. This was great.

    12. CW

      Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:22:04

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