Modern WisdomThe #1 Reason People Regret Their Relationships - Dr Shannon Curry
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,865 words- 0:00 – 6:00
Trade-Offs in Choosing a Partner
- CWChris Williamson
Getting married is just choosing one person's faults over another. Is that right?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Did I say that?
- CWChris Williamson
You said that.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I know that is from, uh, somebody who works with the Gottmans, but, uh, yeah, essentially, the grass is always greener on the other side, so s- I find that incredibly freeing. As soon as we realize that, um, we are going to be living with somebody who has a lot of faults and can we tolerate those faults and can they tolerate ours, then you are, uh, starting on solid ground.
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting thing. You're looking at a familiar type of discomfort, and the deal that you're really trading it for is not familiar discomfort for unfamiliar comfort, but-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... familiar discomfort for unfamiliar discomfort.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Exactly. I, ex- that's very well said. Give me an example.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, you have a partner that is not quite as tender as you might like. They're not, uh, as loving. You're staring at the night sky and you really wish they would say something high-flown and thoughtful, uh, but they s- they start singing a song that they heard yesterday or, or, or playing a tune or something like that, or they, you know, they make a joke, uh, and you think, "I, I just really somebody that's so deep and does, you know, is there." And then, you decide to switch for another partner and you're at a party and your previous partner would have been, you know, really involved in the conversation, that would have made you, given you something that you could have bonded over. But, uh, the new party with the new partner, this, this partner sort of needs your attention all of the time and, and it don't, they don't really allow you to connect. So, you have certain elements of discomfort traded for other elements of discomfort. One person is phenomenal to watch movies with because they don't interrupt and they just like to sit there and be calm, but the next person that you bring along is really interesting and engaging when you have conversations about stuff that fires you up. And you end up making these trades. There is-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... there are no solutions, only trade-offs.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
There are only trade-offs. And although I do believe, um, that Ty Tashiro, a psychologist and researcher, came up, or really identified, three key qualities that can make it easier. So, if a person has these three key qualities, really, this sets the groundwork for having an easier time managing the set of problems because there's so much good there to make up for it, and those things aren't necessarily what we tor- hope we usually shoot for. Um, they're more solid. And it makes sense. If you're trying to be with somebody for years and years, um, and you're gonna be living with them every day and all of their idiosyncraticities... Can you say that word for me?
- CWChris Williamson
Idiosyncrasies.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Idiosyncrasies.
- CWChris Williamson
I think so.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
It's th- it's one extra syllable I keep putting in there. So idiosyncrasies, essentially, you want somebody who's solid and who is consistently reminding you of what a decent, wonderful human being they are so that those idiosyncrasies fall away and aren't the central focus. Whereas if somebody is really cool or good-looking or kind of witty, that might help a little bit, but if they are self-absorbed or unkind, then whatever other issues you traded off for are gonna be really glaring and staring at you in the face.
- CWChris Williamson
Dig into that a little bit more for me. What did he find?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So, Ty Tashiro, he actually looked at, first of all, uh, he realized that people who stayed together for the most part, the large proportion of them are chronically unhappy, and (laughs) there's a, a small minority who are actually s- they stay married long-term and they report a high level of satisfaction, not only in their partnership, but in their sex lives, and it can actually increase with age. And so out of that small minority, he wanted to know are there any correlates? Are there any qualities ... You know, he looked at personality, he looked at race, he looked at age, he looked at all sorts of demographics of how they came together. And there were actually three core personality traits that he found represented more than others, and those were conscientiousness, number one, flexibility, number two, really low neuroticism is what we call it, so it's not a neurotic person. This person's pretty easygoing, flexible. Um, and then the third is low to moderate adventurousness. And I always say to my clients on this 'cause I'm constantly advising my clients on this, this doesn't mean they don't wanna hike or travel. Everybody likes to hike and travel, or I mean, I don't really like to hike, but everybody has some adventurousness in the traditional sense. But if you think of those of us who are constantly looking at new shiny things, um, that's high adventurousness. And high adventurousness might mean that you are constantly starting new projects or running a business and you constantly have new ideas. Uh, it can also mean that you're constantly attracted to new exciting (laughs) people. Doesn't mean you're gonna cheat. It just means that you are somebody who's focus is constantly wandering and, um, it can be very difficult to get your focus and attention, which diminishes intimacy and connection at home. So, you can understand why you'd actually want somebody who is really just easygoing, um, the rock. Uh, they, they focus on their family. They constantly understand what's important. They, uh, you know, they just are satisfied with a simpler life. And I am happy to say my husband is that way. You just need one person who has (laughs) these qualities, by the way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Um, because usually, the incredibly conscientious, flexible, um, solid grounded person is also much more tolerable and, um, forgiving. So, it works out for both parties.
- 6:00 – 10:43
The Importance of Flexibility
- CWChris Williamson
What is flexible in this context? Because neuroticism, for me, in the classic big five is sort of predisposition to low affect, low mood, et cetera. But-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... I- I know lots of people who have a tendency toward low mood that make pretty great partners, and I would also describe as quite flexible. So I'm guessing it's just-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So when I say neuroticism-
- CWChris Williamson
... like a different definition.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So yeah, i- i- so the big five neuroticism is we're talking about mental illness really, and- and the truth is severe or untreated mental illness does predict difficulties in relationships. And I mean, that just is common sense, right? If you have somebody who is shifting moods or and I struggle with depression, so there are periods where I am not myself, I am treated, I have extremely high insight into it, I take responsibility for it, I catch it very early, and I'm very good at functioning on it but, uh, on it like a drug which is actually-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... kind of what it feels like. It's a temporary state. Um, but that is not easy for me to un- without notice kind of shift out of my normal personality for about two weeks until it passes. Um, you can understand how that alone would be difficult. Now you add lack of insight into that or somebody who isn't managing it or isn't treating it, doesn't have a plan in place, doesn't really know what it is or is m- even in denial, that's a nightmare. That's like having a third party in the relationship. It's really or- or even it's a lot like substance abuse in a relationship where there is this other thing that is stealing away your partner for periods of time and, um, it can be really tough if there isn't acknowledgement and accept-
- CWChris Williamson
It's- it's just endogenous. It's coming from inside of them except from outside of them.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Uh, but in terms of the flexibility, so we want somebody who is, yeah, we do want somebody relatively stable but I think even with mental illness, you can have that stability and ownership and management of it, and I think sort of that's the goal is if you have something like, uh, major depressive disorder which by its nature is a recurring sort of chronic mental illness, then is the person managing it or is it- or is it just this unmanaged kind of chaotic thing that influences the relationship? The other part of flexibility and low neuroticism, um, and the reason I use the word flexibility is because I think more important than the focus on mental illness which I think can get skewed is, is this person, um, open and adaptable? Is this person somebody who when you're traveling, they are an absolute nightmare, their eyes kind of bug out in the airport, they get really weird and snappy, um, or is this somebody who is rela- remember Aidan in Sex in the City? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Never watched it.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I don't know how much you've but that guy-
- CWChris Williamson
You're talking to the wrong guy.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... was the pinnacle of flexibility, just you know, you don't h- your hostess gave up your table, it's just sort of like, "Don't forget us. We'll wait outside." Whatever happens kind of happens, very Buddhist non-attachment.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
And I mean truly, that's s- one of the secrets to happiness. I would say it's also the secret to happiness in a relationship.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the role of conscientiousness?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Oh. That one's my favorite. Um, that's real kindness and it doesn't have to look sappy. Uh, my husband is incredibly manly. He's Australian. He's tall. He doesn't talk too much and he can seem, um, a little bit intimidating I think but he is the kindest, most conscientious person. He is someone who anticipates your needs, incredibly thoughtful but it's not to get something in return. It's really the just this caring, this unbelievable sustained empathy and caring for others. So some- uh, he brings me coffee every morning. He checks my phone to see if I've made a mistake with my alarm and uh, you know, he's sort of an ADD coach with me and he does it with kindness and compassion and just has these little built-in routines that he seems to do effortlessly and, um, that make me feel incredibly grateful for him all the time throughout the day. There are multiple times throughout my day where I reflect actively on how fucking grateful I am for my husband.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
And so you can imagine if you have somebody who is that conscientious that you're just blown away after ten years every day, that kind of gratitude really instills intimacy. It creates romance. It creates perpetual romance. And that's why that study that Taiichiro Shiro did, he found that these people who had these qualities in their relationships, they were reporting higher satisfaction in their sex lives into their 60s and 70s. It just continues to grow rather than diminish.
- CWChris Williamson
So
- 10:43 – 18:53
Three Key Traits to Look For
- CWChris Williamson
this was a longitudinal study that was done-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... in a relatively sort of academic setting?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yes, he did a large-scale longitudinal study and, um, he's fantastic.
- CWChris Williamson
Those three traits were predictive.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Conscientiousness which is being a combination of thoughtful and kind, uh...
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
You know I'm not... I don't want to get too into definitions in case I misstate-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... something but, um, the way I understand conscientiousness and there are different personality models, right? And each personality model and not o- not every personality... There's really no one personality model that has ever gotten it completely right. They've all been dispelled in certain regards but the way that I see conscientiousness as a whole across different personality models is, uh, it's got a couple of things combined. So it's not just nice. Nice to me can also mean low self-esteem, a pushover, um, trying to be liked. Conscientiousness may not even look super smiley friendly. It's more of an action. So to me it is somebody who's smart enough to actually notice and anticipate somebody's needs. My husband is incredibly observant and it's something that continues to also bring out admiration in me so he's got that-
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... uh, observational quality, intelligence, and then also motivation. You can't be lazy. Um, and then-
- CWChris Williamson
They're industrious.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... not do the... Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They go and get things done.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
They're industrious, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I was more thinking... I was trying to sort of interpret it, I guess, into the language of romance. But yes, if you're talking straight up what is conscientiousness, I think good definition, uh, they are flexible psychologically. If there is some sort of perturbance, they end up getting back to baseline in not an insane amount of time. If something occurs, they're able to adapt to it, which-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is maybe distinct but kind of sounds a little bit like a subset of agency, which I would put not too far away from conscientiousness as well.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
It is agency.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Okay.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
So you want highly agentic partner.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
You are so smart.
- CWChris Williamson
Aw, thank you. Um, and then-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah, I'm gonna have to up my game now-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... on a different level.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and then, uh, your final one, you want a degree of openness to new experience. Presumably that's somebody that just doesn't want to sit on their ass all the time, uh, uh, helps to keep things exciting, but that is something that you can overshoot for, uh, and you end up with someone who is going to be very open socio-sexually. They're going to be looking for-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
High adventurousness predicts cheating.
- 18:53 – 21:51
Are There Clear Red Flag Traits?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
- CWChris Williamson
If that's green flags, is there an equivalent for red flags? Are there traits that are highly... I guess, not being conscientious, not being flexible, not being open to new experiences, a way to look at that, but i- is there a different category of thing too? Are there, um, traits that people have that are highly predictive of relationships going badly?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I mean, so one of the, one of the things where we actually... Couples therapy is contraindicated is if there is characterological abuse. Um, and what that means... I mean, so when somebody is engaged in characterological abuse, you're usually seeing somebody who is really, um, interested in power. They like to diminish the other person. They usually actually have very low self-esteem. But you'll see these, um, little digs. And when it's really scary, there's a certain type of this person who... So that characterological abuse you can think of as a behavior that is tied to somebody's enduring personality. So, it's behavioral, but there is a personality factor there that is seeking power and control. And then there are these subsets of different personality types within that, so you can have somebody that is, you know, waivers between truly trying to be better, um, but they're so insecure that they're still gonna kind of put you down. But they don't necessarily get, like, a calming effect when they zing you. And then there is this very scary kind of viper personality, I think the Gottmans called it in their research, where you actually, if you have a pulse oximeter on them, they'll zing the person, and their heart rate gets real low after, like it just scratched an itch for them. They feel better.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Um, and then you've just got plain bullies who are gonna be that way to everybody, and they just sort of... It's like a bull in a china shop. Um, and they're just cruel. So, either way, that is a big predictor of an unhappiness. Um, and then there are these, you know... You can see this a lot of times with the lack of conscientiousness. Um, if you see anything cruel or really that is willing to put you out, really put you out, um, without reciprocation... I mean, this is a really hard thing to quantify. It's sort of you know it when you see it. But somebody who because they're so obsessed with their car, anything that's power-related, so they're so obsessed with their car being perfect, um, you matter less than that, and so they're going to park almost in a paranoid way, like (laughs) , a mile away from the restaurant, away from any other cars so that nobody dare ding their precious car. It doesn't matter that you're gonna have to walk in heels. Um, it doesn't matter that nobody is likely going to ding their car. They're so obsessed with their things, their possessions, that you're likely to eventually be a possession to them as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Do you think there's such
- 21:51 – 34:53
Is it Bad to Be Very Different to Your Partner?
- CWChris Williamson
a thing as being too different from a partner? What are, what are deal breaker differences between partners?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I actually don't. I mean... Well, let me, uh, let me think about this. So, I think the research would suggest that actually it has very little to do with compatibility. That's one of those myths, and that really what matters is connection. Uh, are you building connection with your partner? Are you guys attuned to one another's worlds? Are you being good friends to one another? Do you manage conflict well? Um, do you check in with each other about what's going on in your lives? So, you can ha- in fact, my husband and I are very different in so many ways. I always talk about how he's the kind of person who enjoys having a conversation while the TV is on 'cause he's just so excited to socialize. I would prefer to disappear into a book or a computer. And, uh, you know, he loves to... He is just a social butterfly. I can do it, and I do it for my work, and I'm really engaged with somebody when I have that set time to be engaged, but, uh, then I'm done. I'm out. And for him, it is natural. He wants to do things all the time. I don't. Um, our humor is very, very different. We like the same music. But I think you'll find these kinds of key differences with anyone. I mean, our careers. I'm a psychologist. He was working on an oil rig when I first met him. Uh, very different career paths, different educational levels. There is some research that suggested that people usually marry somebody with a similar educational level and appearance, but I don't think that has anything to do with longevity or happiness.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So, it really... I mean, I would say that the majority of the solid research out there supports, and my own (laughs) relationship would support, that it's about connection and what you're actually doing to keep the relationship alive.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Uh, I think opposites attract might not be entirely accurate, but, uh, you need to have some level of resonance, and I think you need to agree on your fundamental principles and values of how you see the world. If-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you think that a family should be built like X but your partner thinks that a family should be built like Y, that's probably gonna be pretty predictive of things being difficult down the line.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
And every... Well, uh, you know what you're saying? See, what you're saying is, essentially, if you have these key core differences...... positions on things.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So, whether it's really different views on politics that you feel your partner's view is fundamentally in opposition to your value system, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Or similar value differences, spiritual differences, m- financial differences. Those are what are called perpetual problems, and every couple actually has them. In fact, 70% of every couple's arguments are made up of these arguments around perpetual problems that will never ever get solved.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So, there are some that I think become more of an issue than others, but usually that actually has more to do with the way the couple is addressing the issues. Because underlying these issues are these sort of dreams or value systems that we have. Sometimes they're tied to our childhood. Um, let me think of a good example. So, um, let... Do you have an example for me of somebody who you... a couple that would have one of these problems you feel like that would be fundamentally difficult to overcome?
- CWChris Williamson
I think anybody who disagrees about how you should raise a child or the, the way that education should be done. Um, looking at how the home's run. Um, you know, how the environment is supposed to be run, um, and expectations around that. Sort of the, the sharing of workload and, and-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and stuff like that. Um, I mean, I would imagine that if you have incompatibility in terms of how much sex is the right amount of sex.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That is gonna-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Couples deal with that all the time.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I would say most couples that come to my office, and by the way, I have a lot of couples that come in preemptively. I have amazing, amazing couples and clients who truly just want... Like you, they're very interested in personal growth and learning and optimizing this life. So, I work with people who are really happily married. Most people have incompatible sex drives or incompatible normals in terms... I have one freaky couple I love, and they have always been compatible and it's amazing. Um, it is just some... It's a way they connect really well. But they are... I always say to them, like, "Guys, you can't tell anybody about this because you're just gonna make the rest of us feel bad."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Most people are struggling with some sort of variation in sex drive. And in fact, every single example you just gave me, so different household roles, which is also so fascinating 'cause you're naming off your... It's very interesting to me about you, how perceptive you are to these things that are actually main areas of research in relationship psychology. So, roles within the household, um, the way that we raise children, and even roles within the household, the handout I have on that where I have couples circle their ideal roles. I mean, this is pages and pages of responsibilities or who does what. All of these things are actually really manageable, and I've had couples manage them. Differing religions, different perceptions on how their child should be schooled, different perceptions on how their child should be punished, corporal punishment, um, discipline. How... I mean, this is normal common stuff, and the goal is actually to recognize that these are sometimes unsolvable problems. We buy into this myth that we have to solve it to be happy together, and in fact, I think just like realizing that you're marrying a set of problems is freeing for me, 'cause it makes me realize I don't have to keep searching or wondering if there's something better I'm missing, I find it freeing to think it is normal to have these recurring gridlocked... well, not necessarily gridlocked, but perpetual issues. The goal is to prevent them from being gridlocked issues.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Gridlocked issues are when we feel that our partner is blocking our life's dreams because we are not able to talk about it with our partner in a way that is calm or curious.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
And if we can recognize that these different positions we have are rooted in a dream, usually from childhood or a value system from childhood, um, and we can share that story with our partner, or even ask, better yet, ask our partner about that story or what it is without any agenda, without trying to persuade them, realizing that understanding always has to come before persuasion. Sometimes when you lift that veil and realize what it's really about for your partner, the actual issue, that conflict falls away. It doesn't even really need to be solved because it reconnects the two of you in this way where you realize you're on the same team. I'm gonna give you an example of that. Um, let's see. Out of all of those, what would you like an example of most?
- CWChris Williamson
Um, let's do raising, let's do a child, raising a child, schooling, the approach that we should have around how this, this child should be disciplined. Rearing, rearing of the kids.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Okay. I'll pick one of those, 'cause each one would be very... Each one I would essentially work with a couple doing this set of exercises on. So, let's do, uh, whether corporal punishment should be used. And, um, in this case... Okay, so let's imagine we have a couple. And dad is... The mom is complaining that dad is way too strict, that he gets scary when he's... when the kids have broken rules that he wants to implement too many rules, and dad thinks mom is way too loosey-goosey, woo-woo gentle parenting bullshit. And, um, what happens when we're in these stuck positions, right, is we start to come up with these criticisms of our partner. So, she's turning them into spoiled little brats, she is totally unscientific, woo-woo bullshit, um, they're gonna turn into... You know, like, I cannot ha- raise children that are weak or weak-willed or don't have character. And she's thinking, "My husband is some, um, like, bully."... uh, you know, hyper-masculine jerk who is going to starve our children of any emotion, and, um, I don't even, like, I can't even believe I married this man. He is lacking any sensitivity and my children are scared of him, and I have to protect, God forbid, I think maybe I have to step in and protect them. Imag- like, that's what you're saying, is that would just be a terrible thing to have to manage. So now imagine they're sitting there and the husband asks her, um, "Is there a fear scenario here for you?" And she starts crying and saying, like, "Yeah, I don't ever want my children to be afraid of you." And then he asks, "Is there a story behind that for you? Something from your childhood?" And she gets really quiet, and when she speaks again her voice cracks and she says, "My household was so violent and nobody did anything about it, and it was supposed to be normal, and I was scared all the time. And I only now have a good relationship with my father." And, and she's crying, and, "We missed 30 years together," and, um, "He's sick and he has so much regret. And look at me, I have all these problems. Um, I just needed to be loved. I felt unsafe my entire childhood. My brother's a drug addict. Um, you know, it's bad." And, you know, he's not trying to persuade her, he's just hearing and then he thinks, "Holy shit. Okay, so now sh- I'm thinking less she's, like, a snowflake, and more, like, oh my God, I've been making my wife... I completely forgot about my wife's upbringing, right? And what might be informing her position." And then she says the same thing to him. Um, she says, you know, "Is there a particular value system here for you?" Or... And he says, "Well, yeah, I mean, I am Asian and I- my family immigrated here, and I have had to try to be something I'm not forever, and with you I felt, um, that you really saw me and wanted my culture and my world to be a part of our family. And, um, what I benefited from growing up was boundaries and discipline, and it has helped me in my career and I have-"
- 34:53 – 40:17
Can We Unlearn How We Argue & Disagree?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
- CWChris Williamson
How m- much of a circuit breaker are conversations like this? I'm sort of interested in how effectively people can unlearn the way that they typically argue, because you have this, you have a habit, you have a, a pattern of bad habits of disagreeing poorly-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... with your partner, and it always results in, one getting the silent treatment, and the other one feeling hard done by or heavily criticized or whatever it is. And it's almost like putting on an old leather pair of shoes-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Really hard.
- CWChris Williamson
"... well, this is what we do, this is the rhythm-"
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... of how our disagreements go." So, h- w- what are some of the ways that you can really try to sort of break that frame of this familiar discomfort when disagreeing?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Discomfort. (laughs) Oh man, it is so hard. Um, two things come to mind. One, I've done this with Ty. So when we first started running into initial problems when we were together, I think, in year two or even, maybe even year one, I dragged him to my mentor and she did a little bit of a couples workshop with us. And I remember how it felt. Here I am, I am somebody who is doing this to people all day long, and I just wanted to sit in shit. (laughs) Like, I just did not want us to be helped. When I had to-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... suddenly be vulnerable, um, or when he e- it's hard to break the ice. This specific exercise, I would say, is probably a little easier than some of the others. There are other conflict management ones where you're trying to repair a former argument that are much more difficult. This one, I would say, is a little bit easier because...... you have one person who is asking the questions and one person who is answering, and so it keeps it pretty structured. It's one of my favorites, I think, for that reason. Um, but I know what it feels like to not want to do it, um, and to just wanna keep the, almost to indulge in the ego and the bad feelings. The shadow, right? Um, and then your partner says something, or just one person doe- says something true and accepts some small piece of responsibility, and it's just the ice kind of shatters. The worst is when, um, somebody accepts one small piece of responsibility and the other partner d- like, keeps drilling down on them. That's just... And that happens a lot in couples therapy, and you're just like, "I handed you the torch. Why did you take this opportunity to destroy this? And we have five minutes left." So, that's brutal. I usually will tell couples, "I f- I am the ski instructor. I'm not here to be judge and jury. I am not going to tell you what to do or who's right or who's wrong. These principles are s- classroom skills, and I am here to sort of coach you in using the principles." Or, as a ski instructor, if you've ever skied before, your ski instructor tells you, like, one or two little skills, and you go down your little pizza slice, and you get to do, like, two turns and then you have to stop. And the ski instructor comes after you, and you meet and you convene. That's what I do with my couples. I don't want them t- going into the forest, so it's two turns, "All right, so time out. Ask her this question." And we start really slow. And my own husband and I did that, and what I can say and what I usually tell friends also is that we did that every week for about a month, and then we did it every other week for about two months, and then it was once a month for a while, and then we did a check-in maybe once a year whenever we had a big blowout fight or running into a rough patch. And now, we kinda know it. But it does work. I mean, of course-
- CWChris Williamson
So there's a sense, there's, there's a sense there that, uh, I think people would assume, "Well, if you're having to do counseling or therapy or something in the first year of a relationship, that doesn't, that doesn't bode very well. We're in the honeymoon phase."
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"We shouldn't need, we shouldn't need to be going to therapy to try and deal with my three-month-old relationship."
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah. Well, maybe three months would be too soon, but what I will say is that I wish everybody had these skills. I think, I mean, do you wanna get me started on my little math rant? Because we do five years of high school of higher level math, and only about 5% of our population will ever go into an engineering or other type of job that uses truly high m- level math, mathematical skill. I think math is incredibly valuable for its analytical skill building, but I'm not sure we need to take that extra year of calculus. I would much, I think our society, our world, given that 96% of the population is gonna get married, this is one thing we all are gonna do, rather than a math profession. I would, I'd say let's trade off that extra year in math and teach people how to actually have a relationship because the skills exist. We actually do have the blueprint, we have the research, we have the data. It is a class. It's enough material to fill an entire year of class and send some kids out there ready to actually do this stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
But, I can't help it, I actually do believe in the science, so after I selected my partner based on science, once we were together, I was like, I mean, he knew this is what I do, and he is freaking wonderful husband.
- CWChris Williamson
You're aware of what you're signing up for.
- 40:17 – 43:34
Why We’re Drawn to Partners We Want to Fix
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is that people get drawn to partners that they want to fix? It's the "I can fix her" meme.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm. You know, I don't know if it's about fixing, truly. I think it's about earning love. I think it's about earning love. If you had a parent whose love you had to earn in some way, I think that, uh, we will find ourselves a partner where we still have to get them to, uh, really care about us.
- CWChris Williamson
Does this need for approval, that reflects, uh, a, a type of need for approval that you once had as a child?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Uh, oh, yeah. Definitely. So if you, you know, for instance, uh, if you had a mother who was kind of withholding or critical and, uh, you're dating, uh, e- chances are, you're going to find a woman who, um, you really have to work hard to make her happy, and, uh... Or, or if your mother was an unhappy person in general and you had kind of a caretaking role or, you know, you walked on eggshells to cheer her up and keep her from being critical, then you've got a double whammy. Then you get somebody who becomes this very dutiful caretaker of their partner, um, you know, accepting shit constantly, taking shit, and just hoping that with more hard work, you know, they'll take the little crumbs they can get. I think it's more about that, replicating that feeling of what we understand love to be and that core attachment level when we were kids.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, I was thinking about this yesterday. I wonder if a little bit of it is, if you have low self-esteem yourself, if that's something that's maybe been bruised in the past, and somebody else is treating you in the way that you internally treat yourself-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you're ob- observing in this significant other a reflection of the way that you see yourself. And that therefore, in the pursuit of trying to win the love and acceptance of the person that you are, you maybe wonder whether or not that would almost fix what it is that you have internally, what it is that you're missing internally. It's sort of a misplaced projection with, like, aspiration for what you want to achieve. "If o- if I can get them to love me, then perhaps..." And there's this sense of familiarity.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Then I'm good enough.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. "I'm good enough. And I already know that I'm not, so they're telling me the thing that..." I agree with them.I agree with the- I agree with what they're saying.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
100%.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree with this sense of not feeling good enough.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah, and if somebody just loves me outright, they must be fucking crazy. What would I want to have to do with that person? What a weirdo.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that push and pull, uh, you know, that dynamic, that very juvenile, sort of immature dynamic of, uh, "I like someone until they like me back"-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, is, i- it's such a common tension that happens in relationships, and, you know, there's a, a huge meme, apparently, on TikTok of, uh, um, in a relationship, it, it needs to be the girl who likes the guy less because that's sort of the only way that he'll remain interested, that basically the power in the relationship-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I love a TikTok.
- CWChris Williamson
... lies with the person who cares the least.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
That's terrible. TikTok kills me.
- CWChris Williamson
Healthy advice there from TikTok.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
That place, it is rough. That is rough.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 43:34 – 47:20
The Best Way to Bring an Issue Up to Resolve
- CWChris Williamson
What's the- you mentioned before there about, uh, sort of a more normal disagreement that you might have with your partner, rather than a, a blowup that you've got in the, uh, in the counseling session. What's the gold standard for how to do rupture and repair well, in your opinion?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Good words. Uh, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Doing my research.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I mean, honestly, there's some that when y- God, I wish I had done more research before this call. (laughs) There are some that, um... Look, a lot of times, if your relationship is really solid, you can let stuff go. I can attest to that personally. Uh, Ty and I have been together 10 years now. We've done this work, and so there are little things. We now know each other so well. We know each other's vulnerabilities where I know because we've done all sort of the friendship levels, we know each other's world, we care about one another, we're fond of one another, we do nice things for each other, if he does something weird or a little bit, you know, insensitive or says something kind of rude at dinner, which nobody else, by the way, would perceive as rude, I know that this is just our own little subtle dynamic, I'm gonna let it go, because we're awesome and for the most part, it's not a big deal. And that's why those basic, why friendship is so important and loving someone is so important, not not loving them. You wanna have that fondness and admiration shared between partners. In terms of, you know, let's say he made a second quip at the dinner. I would probably not bring it up then 'cause also I don't want to hurt him because I like him and I care about him. (laughs) So I'm not gonna embarrass him. Uh, I might give him a squeeze under the table, just, you know. It's like a hierarchy. You don't initially need to bring out the big guns, but I might give him a squeeze and just be like, and he'll know what that means. Um, back in the day before he knew me as well, I might have brought it up when we got home and not made a huge, like, "We need to talk," but just, "Hey, babe, I just want you to know, like, I was a little bit embarrassed when you, it's felt like you were contradicting me on that story about, I don't know, relationship counseling." (laughs) Whatever it was. And, uh, it just, it made me feel a little bit, um, diminished in front of our friends, and I know that wasn't your intention, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... ............................ just be a little bit more aware-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... when I'm talking about something that I'm really passionate about. And I can even offer a little bit of background, which you start to learn about yourself when you do this kind of talking with your partner, and it's like, if I actually think about it, it reminds me of how my family never really cared about anything I had to say or anything I was doing or accomplished, it wasn't real if it was something I was doing. So when you-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... kind of were contradicting me, it just brought up a big yucky feeling, and I know, again, that wasn't your intention, but it's something I'm sensitive to.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like the most important thing here is that it's on a foundation of very, very deep trust, that both of you know that you have the other's best interests at heart, you both, uh, appear as a team, it's us against the world together, therefore-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
That's exactly what it is.
- CWChris Williamson
.... it's-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I love that part, by the way.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the difference between you calling a, the opposing team member a bad name because you want him to miss a penalty or you calling your, your own team member a bad name because you think, "Dude, you could have done better," and, like, "Let's do better next time," or whatever. Like, the more encouraging equivalent.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
A- and that's why in this couple's therapy, you actually, you don't go to conflict management until you've already started to build up the friendship levels, unless you need to repair a betrayal, and at that point-
- CWChris Williamson
You've,
- 47:20 – 51:54
Why Friendship Is So Important in Relationships
- CWChris Williamson
you've ment- you mentioned this a couple of times, the friendship levels. What is-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... what is that?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Thank you. Thank you for, uh, bringing me back to that. So, all of this research that I'm talking about, besides Ty Tashiro, is really largely, it was done by John and Julie Gottman, two relationship psychologists who have been at this game longer than anybody else and they have now 50 years of research, longitudinal studies, the largest sample base of any, I, I actually find it to be, in my mind, and this may be something that's arguable, but I haven't found anything like it. The most researched, uh, psychological therapy method we have. Um, they developed a method of therapy that is very structured based on their research. It happens to be for couples. But I think i- it's the most researched therapy we have to date. Uh, so 50 years of longitudinal data on couples, and what they found were that these couples who were the most satisfied, Ty Tashiro's research looked at personality traits, the Gottman's looked at personality traits, but more than that, these interaction styles. They would have couples go in this room they called the Love Lab. So it was up in Washington, and they had m- you know, double mirrors, they had cameras, they had pulse oximeters, they were doing blood tests, they were checking cortisol levels, they had inter-raters, you know, trying to quantify little movements they were seeing or statements or interactions.What they eventually came up with and codified, they started noticing that the couples who were the most satisfied long-term when they kept revisiting them, and these are also couples who didn't divorce, um, were doing these things, and they had really strong friendships. They said nice things to one another. They anticipated things that were coming up in their partner's life. They would talk about their partner's stresses. They would check in at the end of the day. These were the ones who stayed married and were the happiest over the years. And so with all of the information they got, including when they saw couples argue, how they managed conflict, et cetera, they started to develop this model that they call the sound relationship house. And the sound relationship house has a foundation. We call them the friendship levels. And that starts with love maps, which is knowing your partner's world. Who's their current least favorite person? Who is their cur- current best friend? What are they excited about that's coming up? What are they dreading? Um, my favorite is, what is your partner's as of yet unrealized, but most preciously held life dream? If you know that, your partner might not even know that, but if you know that, A, that's super conscientious, but also you got love maps down. Then you've got fondness and admiration. So this is really thinking, putting on those rose-colored glasses. We actually need them. So we need them not only in our relationships. We need them for our own mental health. People who are depressed actually have a pretty accurate appraisal of things. But it's not healthy for us. We need a little bit of a cheery outlook. Um, so are you... There's a s- a phrase called, like, um, it's something about the story of the relationship. Do, are they really, are they romanticizing the conflict and the struggles they've had? Are they seeing them as meaningful and purpose-driven? Um, so you wanna see that, us against the world. And then there's the other friendship level of turning toward your partner. So when your partner makes a bid for connection, if they say, "Hey, look at this meme," even if you think it's dumb, are you gonna look up from your computer recognizing that it's not just my partner wants attention. They love you so much that when you're on your computer doing your email, they are making a bid for reconnection. If you think of it like that, that's so awesome. And so you look up and you look at the dumb meme, but you think of how lucky you are to have somebody who loves you that much, and you laugh at the dumb meme. So turning toward your partner. And then on bigger levels, it's turning toward your partner when they're bummed, when they have a conflict they need to discuss with you. With all of that, you get that positive perspective. So the friendship levels give you the positive perspective that friendship, you guys are on the same team, you're gonna cheer each other on so that you can deal with the foul play or whatever else it is in a way that's constructive and doesn't just shit on the person.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. What else
- 51:54 – 59:06
Things That Predict Relationship Longevity
- CWChris Williamson
was predictive of longevity from the Gottman research?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Oh, so many things. Um, well, let me keep going up the sound relationship house. So w- when you get into managing conflict, you really want to avoid the four horsemen, and the four horsemen were actually the most predictive of a divorce. This, people get stuck on this, especially on TikTok as a forum, by the way. I've, I've never had so many people get stuck on this five-year divorce type thing where, so if they do all of these things, but they don't get a divorce in five years, they're okay. No, no, no. (laughs) I mean, they might stay together, but the idea, i- it just says, it's more predictive of a divorce because they're so unhappy. If they stay together, they're still gonna be unhappy. Um, so let's just clear that up. And those are one criticism, so just putting your partner down, right? So if I got th- you know, felt undermined at the dinner, I would've been like, "God, you're such a story topper. Well, you need so much attention, you can't just..." That kind of thing. Instead of like, "Babe, I'm sensitive to this." Number two, contempt. Contempt is criticism on steroids. It is the worst thing for a relationship. That's where you're doing that power dynamic I kind of talked about. So it would be really putting somebody down, the eye-rolling when they talk, um, name-calling, diminishing them, going global with, "You're so, such a selfish person." Um, "You're slav-" Like, "You're slovenly. Did you do anything today? Do you ever do anything?" Those kinds of things are really contemptuous, and they erode not only at the relationship but at the person's self-esteem. Um, defensiveness. So that's that hard one where when you're really in it and you are forgetting that person is on your team, can you take some small piece of responsibility or validate some small piece of what they're saying just to get you through that barrier? It makes all the difference. And then stonewalling, and this is something that we do when our heart rate gets too high. We get physiologically flooded. Our frontal lobe kind of shuts down, and it's actually usually I'm stonewalling when I don't want to validate my partner. I'm just, I'm done. Um, and that can also be a trauma response if you just, uh, you know, if you grew up in an abusive household or a household where you had very little power and control over chaos, you often learn to just, like, when it got too bad, you just go inward because there's nothing you can do about it. And, uh, but you can imagine that if you keep stonewalling your partner and you shut down and you don't engage with them, it makes them feel very lonely. It's the opposite of connected. So all of those four things you do not want to do, uh, when you're managing conflict. If you don't do those and you do the antithesis, so I kind of mentioned, like, accepting a small piece of responsibility, calming yourself down physically if you s- notice you're stonewalling.... um, using these sort of reflective listening techniques, they're a little bit more than that because you go a little deeper in asking your partner questions, but suspending your own, uh, agenda, your own position in learning about why they feel something. If you do all of those things, now you're through the conflict management. If you've done that and you've got the friendship stuff going, now we get into, like, making each other's life's dreams come true. And this is where it's, um, you know, you're building rituals of connection. You're finding out what you guys stand for as a couple, shared meaning. What i- what are, what do we stand for? What does our family stand for? This little couple family we have. Like, who are we? And that's where you get those couples that just are so special.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that's one plus one equals three, right? That's sort of a positive sum game where-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you together become more than you could have ever been apart type thing.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
100%. And you know what? That's why I'm really obsessed with the Gottman research and this therapy method. I mean, it is one of the most elegant I've ever seen. It is so structured and skills-based. Um, I think I really needed to know there was a blueprint, there was a way to do this. And what I love about doing this therapy with people is I can do it with service members with severe PTSD and their partner, and it's healing both of them individually and as a couple because we are such social beings. We are incredibly social creatures. So, you can have profound individual healing and growth through the relationship. In fact, I think our relationships are our greatest teacher.
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned, uh, how much time we spend learning maths, uh, whichever useless subject that we can't remember any- anyway from when we were in school, and how little time gets spent learning about relationships. But, you know, uh, maybe you could lay that at the feet of a ineffectually designed education system. But you're an adult now, and you haven't decided to go... Uh, how many, how many times did you go to pickleball lessons?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You remember when you did 15 weeks of pickleball lessons and you went twice a week and you did-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... that class? Do you remember when you did that? And what are you doing with your pickleball now? You still suck.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Whereas, your relationship, this thing that you know is the single most important decision-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you're going to make in your entire life-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... what have you done with that? Oh, you wa- you, you, you, like, watched a couple of TikToks.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
You made a couple of, of, uh, scientifically unsound-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Things you do.
- CWChris Williamson
... conclusions from a few TikToks.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So yeah, I just, you know, I, I do think that this is changing a little bit. Um, the world of personal development, personal growth, sort of self-development-y stuff seems to me to be crossing over into, "How can I use my relationship as a vehicle to make me, my partner, our union, and our lives better all together as one big thing?"
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
It's so efficient.
- CWChris Williamson
Um... Correct. That's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah. It's super, super efficient. Um, and I guess on the other side of this, the personal growth that you get from a, "How can I alchemize maybe a bad relationship?" way, bad relationships will teach you more about yourself than probably pretty much any other situation in your life.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so it is a... I get, I get... I really do understand why people are sort of checking out of dating. I don't agree with it, but I understand emotionally the motivation for them to do it. There's protection, "I've been hurt before. This is painful. I don't understa-" so on and so forth. But with a tiny little bit of a frame change, it just seems to me like there's, uh, you have the opportunity for the consistently-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Greatest growth.
- CWChris Williamson
... having, yeah, exactly-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- 59:06 – 1:05:25
How to Let Go of Bad Patterns From Previous Relationships
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
- CWChris Williamson
That's a, th- this is an interesting one. I'm gonna try and combine a couple of different areas of the stuff that you do. So you assess, um, lingering emotional stress, psychological pain, stuff like that.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, how can people expedite relinquishing themselves of that lingering emotional stress and psychological pain, but from a relationship standpoint? So they've-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... been in a relationship previously, and they've developed coping patterns, expectations of themselves, behaviors, habits, and they really, not only do they not want to see the world in that way, they don't wanna bring that into the next relationship. So, what are some of the ways that people can detox from previous relationship patterns that they wanna get rid of?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Honestly, it's why I dragged Portie into my mentor's office when we were dating and we started having problems and I realized I was just... We were both stuck in stuff. We both had stuff. And I knew that we just needed support, so I did that. And I hate that that's really my answer. I hate that that's my answer because it's a paid service. I think it's a valuable service, but it's not something health insurance covers. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... um, that's a whole nother thing.
- CWChris Williamson
So counseling? Your answer is, your answer is counseling? That's what counseling is?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Well, not just counseling actually, because I know a lot of people who go see a therapist for couples therapy, and what few people understand is that couples therapy is minimally taught even in doctoral programs. We learn a lot about individual therapy methods. We learn a lot about testing and assessment. We learn a lot about family therapy, child therapy, adult therapy, group therapy. We might, you know, brush over some of the Gottman's research in a class, but you're not getting the real skills to do structured, evidence-based couples therapy. And, and perhaps part of that is because it's not considered a healthcare service, whereas the traditional psychotherapy model is considered treatment of a diagnosable illness.The problem is, though, that again, 96% of us are in marriages, and if you look at Taiji Shiro's research, the majority of those marriages are unhappy or going-
- CWChris Williamson
So-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... to end.
- CWChris Williamson
... what should people do if th-, in your opinion, this is not medical advice-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... h-, where would you direct people for the best evidence-based category of-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I, I-
- CWChris Williamson
... couples counseling?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... truly believe you do the Gottman method of couples therapy. I think it would-
- CWChris Williamson
So you're looking for a Gottman licensed couples therapist?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
You are looking for a therapist who is trained in the Gottman method. Um, I strongly support level three training, although I know some excellent, uh, Gottman method therapists who are level two trained. Level one is a great introduction, but really, I just m- think... The reason that I am so adamant about this is because doing couples therapy using individual therapy methods is actually a recipe for harming the relationship. So this is one of those areas where a therapist who is winging it and just sort of doing therapy with this couple can actually hurt that relationship, um, pretty quickly.
- CWChris Williamson
You mean two people separately going to psychotherapy, doing the normal talk therapy thing?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
No. So if you have a, a couples, a therapist who isn't trained in the Gottman method trying to do therapy with a couple and calling it couples therapy, and that's most therapy that couples go to. They go to couples therapy, and I always m-, am... I try to sort of suspend my, "Was it a therapist trained in the Gottman method?" Because sometimes I feel like I am like a walking advertisement. And by the way, everyone, I am trained in this method, but I have no paid affiliation with them whatsoever. I just... This is the most evidence-based method we have in general, and it happens to be for couples. We also know that because of these findings, that if you just unload all of your criticism onto your partner, because you're doing a traditional therapy approach that is meant for individual therapy where it's sort of open, talking, reflective listening, if you're unloading your criticism and your contempt and all of your anger is flowing and we're using this sort of, like, let it out approach, those are all things... These are the four horsemen. So you're gonna get defensiveness and you're gonna get stonewalling and you're going to burn more of that bridge rather than rebuild the connection. It's actually harmful. So I think it can be a waste of time and money, and I think it can actually harm the relationship more than it helps, which is why I just... If you are going to somebody who is trained and strictly utilizes the evidence-based Gottman method-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... you a- you're going to have a greater likelihood of actually improving the relationship. So I'm pretty adamant about that. Where I would send people is to the Gottman Institute online. It's a website. So from there, you can find individual, or you can find couples therapists for private therapy if that's something you want. They have the Gottman Referral Network. Some Gottman providers, though, are not on there, so I'm not on there. Um, there are excellent people you can find word of mouth as well. Um, but Gottman Referral Network is a good place to start. If you aren't able to find somebody who is covered by your insurance and budget is a major concern, which it is for most people, the Gottman Institute has created some really awesome software programming, and this really started during the COVID era, and it's gotten better ever since. So they have affordable apps that you can use, they have, um, uh, videos of their trainings that you can utilize, and then structured guidelines for practicing on your own. There is something amazing about having a ski instructor though, right, to help you (laughs) down that mountain. But these skills are out there, so you can learn them, and it does take a little bit more commitment 'cause you don't get to just sit and shit like I did in that room where my mentor, who is wonderful and loving and wise, had to coax me out of being a brat so that I could participate fully. So you have to be a little bit more of a grownup, but I think it can be done.
- CWChris Williamson
I love it. Um, I
- 1:05:25 – 1:17:22
How to Get Over a Breakup
- CWChris Williamson
guess final thing, something we haven't spoken about, is breakups.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And w-... Is there anything to say from an evidence-based perspective on what getting over a breakup looks like? Is that, is that even an area of research?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah. It is, and it's pretty fascinating. Oh, I should've brushed up on this one. Uh, this one has a lot to do with neuroscience. In fact, I bet Huberman could tell you a lot on it, and actually, I would listen to that in a heartbeat. But, uh, uh, what we do know is that people actually have a, uh, drug withdrawal-like response to a breakup. So you are, you were getting this oxytocin from the love relationship and also from the familiarity. There are a couple different reasons for this. When you're in a relationship, you have these patterns of things you do with your partner, and if you were very close and together for a long time, there is, A, the stress of disentangling your lives, and if you have to move, that's one of the most stressful life events there is, is a relocation, so you're dealing with that. Then you also had, you know, breakfast together on Sundays or TV day on Saturdays when you're both wiped or hungover or, uh, you know, you'd go to your parents on Sunday afternoon or you... Whatever those little rituals were, you had them and they were built in. Now you're gonna have these empty pockets of time that aren't filled with these familiar comforts, so that's disrupting as it is and stressful. But on top of that, you're not getting the physical touch and intimacy, you're not getting the romantic love if you're in the early stages of the relationship, and so you're actually having, um, this withdrawal syndrome, and it's going to feel a lot like drug n-...So, there are a couple of different things you can do recognizing that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
When you are addicted to drugs, when you're going through withdrawal, you start to... Your body wants more of that (laughs) drug. It wants that hit of oxytocin. And so, you're going to start fantasizing and thinking wholly about that thing you want, and that means you're gonna idealize the relationship, you're gonna idealize your ex. And it's just the way you would start to obsess about that drug. So, what do we have addicts do when we know that they're going to start idealize the drug, they're gonna start having cravings? We have them remember, they counter that thought with a thought about what they have to lose, and we might counter it also with a memory of rock bottom. And so you have to, A, recognize that these are fantasies. They are not realistic. These are idealizations of something that isn't true. And so you take those rose-colored glasses off, the ones that we want you to have on in a whole relationship. (laughs) You take them off, and you remember what it was like, um, the time he left you in the parking lot and you didn't have a way to get home, or, uh, I don't know. Y- you think of the worst times, and then you also need to find positive activities to fill those empty pockets. So, whereas somebody was using in the past, now they have to, you know, call their sponsor or they go do something enjoyable like work out, do the same thing when you used to do brunch with your partner or, um, whatever else it was that is making you miss them suddenly. So, call a friend, go to brunch with a friend. I o- I have this weird thing where I love magazines. It, to me, it's, like, doesn't harm you because it's not junk food and it's kind of a quick fix, and I can look at fashion and stuff, and as long as I don't shop, I love that as, like, a quick hit of oxytocin. Uh, just gives me a little thrill. Everybody's got one of those l- weird little things. So, you plan ahead. You got your magazines ready, whatever it is, and you start filling those empty spaces. And then third, you also need to recognize that as you get more tired in the day, your executive functioning decreases. So, that same frontal lobe that you need to manage an argument effectively with your partner, you also need that to exercise any good judgment and to remind yourself of why you broke up with a person. That's why you might notice, like, you pine a little bit more for your ex at night, or you, uh, call them at night, or you just get, you know... Nighttime is never great. As soon as you start to get tired and your frontal lob go- lobe goes down, you're just gonna be a little bit less reserved, a little bit less controlled, a little bit less aware of all the good reasons you made this smart decision.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
So, go to bed.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Right, that's the answer to a lot of problems.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Go to bed.
- CWChris Williamson
Just go to bed, yeah-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
...and put your phone away. No, th- that, it's very interesting. I actually asked Huberman this question about, probably about three years ago, and, um, he started talking about the neuroscience of grief.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Ah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, he said that the way that it works with grief is there is a, an area of our brain which is expecting our ability to connect with that person and that has been taken away.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
You don't mind me?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I can send you the, I can send you the link to the-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
That would-
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, clip after this.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... that would actually be much more-
- CWChris Williamson
But he's-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
I just had this urge to-
- CWChris Williamson
Um-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
... start taking notes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Okay, keep going.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The profess- the professional nerd in the room-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
This is weird. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... as opposed to the unprofessional nerd. Um, yeah, basically that it's, it's like grief, right? That you've lost somebody, that they're dead, but the, the unique pain that you get from a breakup is that the person is still accessible. Uh, maybe they don't care about you anymore.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Oh, yes.
- 1:17:22 – 1:18:10
Where to Find Shannon
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
- CWChris Williamson
Dr. Shannon Curry, ladies and gentlemen, I really appreciate you. Um, it's fascinating to look at the world of relationships through, uh, an evidence-based lens. Is, it's really, really unique, so-
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
... where should people go if they want to keep up to date with everything you do?
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
Um, you can check out my website, currypsychology.com, or Instagram. I am working on getting more content up there lately, so it's currypsychgroup.
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah. Dr. Curry, I appreciate you. I'll see you next time.
- SCDr. Shannon Curry
All right. Thanks so much, Chris.
- CWChris Williamson
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