The Abuse Of Moral Talk For Self Promotion | Justin Tosi | Modern Wisdom Podcast 221

1. 0:00 – 0:24

   Intro

   1. JTJustin Tosi0:00

      So, morality is supposed to be about helping other people, being kind to them, about resolving important social problems. But what grandstanders do is they turn morality into just an opportunity to show other people how good they are and, you know, what an achievement for, for me to have such pure moral beliefs. But this is an empty achievement, and it's actually kind of pathetic if you think about it that way.

2. 0:24 – 2:45

   What is grandstanding

   1. JTJustin Tosi0:24

      (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:24

      I am joined by Justin Tosi. Justin, welcome to the show.

   3. JTJustin Tosi0:28

      Thanks for having me, Chris.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:29

      Pleasure to have you on. Grandstanding. What is grandstanding?

   5. JTJustin Tosi0:36

      Yeah. So if you want just a bumper sticker description of, of the idea, moral grandstanding is the use of moral talk for self-promotion. So if you see people on your social media feeds or you just encounter people in everyday life who are, are, you know, walking around talking like corporate press releases or sounding like politicians, giving these carefully crafted statements about, you know, how they've long stood on, on the side of the disadvantaged and so on, and kind of making moral talk about them and turning it into a vanity project or a big show where they're the main character, that's grandstanding.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:14

      Why do they do it?

   7. JTJustin Tosi1:17

      So human beings, uh, care a lot about what other people think about them. We're all impression managers. So there are really fun social science studies showing that, you know, if you tell people, um, "You know, I'm gonna leak to the university community that you got this really bad score on this, uh, this, uh, implicit association test that reveals, uh, perhaps racial bias," they will do horrible things, you know, that you'd see on Fear Factor or whatever, sticking their hands in a bowl of worms and, you know, nasty stuff like that, because they care a lot about what their communities think of them. They don't want to be ostracized, and they all know that if people think, um, you know, that they are not very good people morally, uh, that they run the risk of being kind of run out of their friend groups or their, their political groups, things like this. People are also self-enhancers. Uh, so we all like to think that we are morally good, uh, and morally above average, all of us (laughs) . So we kind of have this impression of ourselves as, "You know, I'm better than, than the average person. Um, my heart is really in the right place." And we want other people to share that impression, so we take steps to present a flattering picture of ourselves to the world. Uh, and that's why we engage in grandstanding, because it's a very easy way to show people that our heart is in, in the right place. So

3. 2:45 – 5:44

   Two types of grandstanding

   1. JTJustin Tosi2:45

      why not do it?

   2. CWChris Williamson2:46

      It seems like there's kind of two types of grandstanding there. One of them is, like, defensive grandstanding, and the other is offensive grandstanding. Is that kind of right?

   3. JTJustin Tosi2:55

      Yeah. So, uh, psychologists talk about two different ways that people seek status. On the one hand, people sometimes seek status through prestige. So this is when people try to present some characteristic of themselves that actually deserves praise, that is impressive. So, um, in the non-moral realm is, is, uh, people, uh, who, you know, post flattering pictures of themselves on Instagram or-

   4. CWChris Williamson3:28

      "This is my new bench press PR, this is my new-"

   5. JTJustin Tosi3:30

      Yeah, right. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson3:31

      "... my fast car, my big house, my good-looking girlfriend."

   7. JTJustin Tosi3:35

      Yeah, yeah. So these are things that, that it's actually, you know, like that makes sense that people would admire these things. Uh, so people will sometimes seek status in this way. They'll seek prestige status. Sometimes people, uh, will also seek status through dominance. So they'll present themselves as someone not ... or someone to be reckoned with, someone not to be messed with. Um, so they'll go after people. They'll, uh, you know, try to embarrass or humiliate people that they don't like. Uh, and their hope, um, implicit or not, is that people will stay away from them, not mess with them. Uh, think, "This is not someone I want to piss off. I want to stay on this person's good side." And this is another way of kind of gaining respect, of gaining the esteem of others, through being really aggressive. So you can grandstand in both of these ways. Uh, the prestige way is often a bit more defensive, as, as you put it. So sometimes people won't be setting out really, uh, to impress people, but an opportunity will arise and they'll think, "Well, I don't want people to think that, uh, my heart is not in the right place about this issue, so I'd better say something." Uh, right? Or, "I don't want to be accused of remaining silent," or something like this, and so doing violence or whatever people are saying now, uh, white silence is violence or whatever. So they'll do a little bit of grandstanding because, hey, what's the harm? Um, but then there are people who, uh, will go out and, um, you know, go looking for a fight, look, look for someone, uh, who's kind of, like, straying from the pack a little bit and making themselves vulnerable. Um, the person who, uh, who doesn't put their fist up at the restaurant, uh, outdoors. That's happened in Washington, D.C. recently. Um, and you know, these are the people you go after. Uh, so you can do a bit of grandstanding, uh, about, you know, "Look, I'm out here leading this group of people all making this gesture. Why aren't you doing it? Like, what's wrong with you?" Um, so the people doing that can, can also gain a kind of status, and so they do. Uh, so all of this can, can

4. 5:44 – 11:32

   Who plays grandstanding

   1. JTJustin Tosi5:44

      be grandstanding.

   2. CWChris Williamson5:45

      Do you think that some of the people who are choosing to play that game, choosing to play the moral grandstanding, uh, armchair philosophizing side, uh, t-Do you think that they will skew toward people who can't use prestige and typical forms of wealth and dominance to move up the hierarchy? So if you have someone who isn't potentially very good-looking or doesn't really have that much wealth, or actually isn't all that clever, but has what I call podcast f- uh, podcast wits, which is that they're able to say (laughs) , they're able to say something which gives this, the representation of looking smart. Um, they might think, "Hang on, I can't compete in the typical dominance hierarchy. I'm gonna change the rules of the game. You wanna play chess, I wanna play rugby. Let's play rugby."

   3. JTJustin Tosi6:32

      Yeah. So I like this a lot. You're, you're hitting on a, a kind of pet theory of, of mine, which is, uh, that, that a lot of people who engage in grandstanding, if they actually had any- anything interesting to say, like if they were actually funny, uh, or if they had something else going for them, um, that's what they would do. Right? They would just be funny or they would just, just show their, their wealth. Uh, so they'd engage in some conspicuous consumption, uh, or something like that. Uh, but, but they don't, or that, or it's so much easier for them, uh, to engage in moral grandstanding that that's, you know, just a very simple, reliable path to status for them. Uh, so that's the stuff that, that they do instead. And our, our mutual fan, uh, friend, Rob Henderson has, has written stuff about this, about, uh-

   4. CWChris Williamson7:17

      He's, he's the fucking king of conspicuous consumption and this-

   5. JTJustin Tosi7:20

      Yeah. He's so good.

   6. CWChris Williamson7:21

      ... what, what is it? High status goods at the moment that he's playing around with?

   7. JTJustin Tosi7:25

      Uh, luxury g- yeah, luxury beliefs-

   8. CWChris Williamson7:26

      Luxury goods. Luxury beliefs.

   9. JTJustin Tosi7:28

      ... in his case. Um.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:28

       That's it. Sorry, Rob.

   11. JTJustin Tosi7:28

       Yeah. So he draw-

   12. CWChris Williamson7:29

       Sorry, man.

   13. JTJustin Tosi7:30

       (laughs) So he draws this stuff, uh, from Veblen, uh, who has this whole theory work out. So Veblen is, um, just this academic outsider. Uh, he doesn't fit in, in all the elite circles. He doesn't have all the servants. Uh, and he's kind of puzzled by, uh, this world. So, you know, he writes this, this great book, um, The Theory of the Leisure Class, all about their, their kind of lame practices, just, you know, uh, acquiring obscure languages and engaging in, in all this pomp, uh, and circumstance just to show people that they have the time and, and the money. Um, so, you know, uh, what Rob points out and then we're kind of, Bran and I are in the same vein, um, is that people do this also with their moral beliefs. Uh, so they'll, they'll claim at least, um, and very often I think they actually do have the beliefs, um, but they'll at least claim to, to have these flattering beliefs and they'll get status for it. Um, and s- and, you know, so sometimes this is because they have nothing else going for them. Sometimes it seems like this is just the precondition for being accepted into polite society. Um, so there is stuff recently, maybe you saw this, about, uh, woke fishing. So, um, people claiming, you know, d- very disappointed, you know, women say, "You know, I went on a date with, uh, with this guy and he said he was, you know, a good progressive. Um, he had all, he said all the right things, but then it turned out he wasn't super progressive." And so people are, are, you know, turning this into this great conspiracy that these, these guys are all out there, um, you know, pretending to be really woke, uh, and, and they're not. Uh, and I think actually a better explanation for this is just that people don't really think these words mean very much.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:20

       (laughs)

   15. JTJustin Tosi9:20

       Uh, and they're just, you know, they know, "If I'm in polite society, these are the things I have to claim to believe." And then, but then you get them like, you know, one or two deductions away from the thing that they claim to believe and it's like, "Whoa, what?" Like... (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson9:34

       Yeah. I know. I mean, like, what's the difference between woke fishing and the vast majority of people who are playing around with these brand new rules that six weeks ago were completely acceptable and today is completely unacceptable or the reverse? Like, the fact that you believe that you believe doesn't make, doesn't mean that you actually fucking believe it. Like, it's just that your self-deception is so pervasive that the guy-

   17. JTJustin Tosi9:59

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson9:59

       ... who's using woke fishing has weaponized your miscalculation of how you see things. I, uh, I put it in, I put the woke fishing thing in a newsletter recently, and, um, it, thankfully I think in the UK we don't have that same polarization. Um, a- at least not in, not in quite the same way.

   19. JTJustin Tosi10:15

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson10:15

       Um, but yeah, I, I think Rob had put ... Was it Rob that had identified any guy who has moderate in their Tinder profile has to be a Republican?

   21. JTJustin Tosi10:26

       (laughs) That sounds like something Rob would say.

   22. CWChris Williamson10:29

       But so like, the, the, the set point basically of where people, guys are expected to be now on the Tinder spectrum is that because of woke fishing, you need to be like super, super progressive just to be centrist. And like-

   23. JTJustin Tosi10:43

       Right. Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson10:43

       ... anything short of that is like a gun-toting NRA hick that loves country music and drives a pickup truck. Like that's-

   25. JTJustin Tosi10:49

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson10:49

       ... that's it. Um, but dude, I, I, the, the woke fishing thing's great. Have you got some, some examples for people? You mentioned this recent incident where there was a, a lady sat down at a restaurant, and you've got tons and tons of examples. Let's give the listeners some concrete examples of what happens, what grandstanding can actually look like when it manifests.

   27. JTJustin Tosi11:12

       Yeah. So le- let me run through it. In the book, we give you, uh, we give everybody this, this field guide, um, to things that people do when they grandstand. So to be clear, uh, it's not the case that like every time anyone does something on this list, they are grandstanding, right? It's, it's rather that when people are grandstanding, these are the kinds of things that they tend

5. 11:32 – 16:28

   trojan horse

   1. JTJustin Tosi11:32

      to do.

   2. CWChris Williamson11:32

      So just to-

   3. JTJustin Tosi11:33

      Uh-

   4. CWChris Williamson11:33

      ... to, to interject there, man, that's the point.

   5. JTJustin Tosi11:35

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:35

      The point is that it's a Trojan horse. It's you weaponizing a particular worldview, point of view that other people hold truthfully, but it's you doing it in a way which is, um, uh, meta-cognizantly kind of, uh, uh, labored, right? You're doing it for-

   7. JTJustin Tosi11:55

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:55

      ... the effect rather than the fact that you are compelled and you genuinely believe it.

   9. JTJustin Tosi11:59

      Yeah, that's very close. So a- actually, we think that you can really believe the things. Uh, and, and, and in fact, we can get to this, this is why, uh, some of this is so dangerous. Uh, because if people were actually just bullshitting, right, then it wouldn't be so bad if they're claiming to believe these, these crazy things. But because they believe it, then it takes on this new dimension.

   10. CWChris Williamson12:22

       Oh.

   11. JTJustin Tosi12:22

       It's not just, like, people jerking off in public. It's, it's like, "Whoa." (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson12:27

       So much more dangerous.

   13. JTJustin Tosi12:28

       Like, this is actually driving opinion. Yeah, right. Um-

   14. CWChris Williamson12:30

       Okay, so the w- the framework, tell us.

   15. JTJustin Tosi12:32

       Yeah, yeah. Uh, so one of the things that people tend to do, which I'm sure everyone has seen, is that they'll engage in piling on. So they'll look for a case of someone who's violated a norm in public. Um, social media is, you know, the perfect, uh, forum for, for this. Uh, and they'll see people getting in their digs at this person, and they'll say, you know, either something that everyone, you know, someone has said 100 times already, or they'll, they'll attempt some new form of abuse, uh, to, to mock this person. And they'll do this to show other people, uh, that they are in the right on, on this issue, that they, uh, they're part of the crowd, that they're not, you know, um, cautious, you know, they're not sitting on the sidelines. They agree with, with everyone else about how bad this person is. Um, another thing that people will do is that they will engage in what we call ramping up. So this is when moral talk becomes a kind of arms race, with people, uh, looking to say the most extreme thing that the crowd will, will still, uh, think of as, as morally impressive. So i- in, in the US, uh, I don't know if this dis- this discourse has reached the UK, but, um, you know, with, with all of these, uh, protests, people started, uh, really hitting this point of, you know, "We need to defund the police." Uh, and very quickly, th- this became, uh, you know, "We need to actually abolish the police." So within, you know, within a matter of 48 hours, this moves to, from like, you know, "We need to take a good look at, at how we're funding these organizations," to like, "Get rid of them entirely, and that's of course what we meant all along," right? So, so this is, I think part of the dynamic that, that you were hitting on earlier of things, you know, moving so quickly, and, and it's like people haven't thought this out. Um, and it's, and it's because, um, grandstanders have an incentive, uh, to be really extreme and, you know, make this splashy claim that will, will then become the official statement that everyone, you know, argues about it and says like, this is, "Whoa, this guy's really, you know, out there," or whatever. Another thing that people will do is they'll engage in trumping up. So they'll make exotic moral claims, uh, and the idea here is, um, you know, a lot of people might have overlooked this problem, but I'm really sensitive, or, or I'm really knowledgeable about, about justice and how morality works, so I saw this and everyone else should take notice, right? So if there's an incentive to do this, you'll get people becoming really creative and, and saying things, uh, that are just way out there, uh, because it will impress at least some members of, of their group. Uh, you'll also have people engaged in what we call excessive emotional displays. So these are the people y- you might be thinking of who are just always outraged, uh, about whatever the latest thing is. Um, and it's always at 10, r- or 11, right? Like, so they're always going to 11, um, because they want to be seen as like the most, like sensitive, the people who care the most about justice. Uh, and then finally, grandstanders are, are really often dismissive of people who disagree with them. So they'll, they'll say things like, "Look, if you don't see what's so bad about this, Chris, I don't even know what, I don't know what to tell you, man. Like, you're just too far gone. You are too in the dark. You need to do some work on yourself and then, you know, then we can talk or whatever, but it's not my job to educate you. Educate yourself." Right? So stuff like this. Uh, and the idea here is like, I can't, I'm so good, I can't even put myself in the frame of mind of, of someone like you, so I wouldn't know where to start. Uh, so, you know, you can grandstand in other ways too, right? Uh, any- anything that is moral talk could in principle be grandstanding. People could be driven to say it, uh, by, um, a desire to im- impress others. Uh, but these are just some, some really common things that, that people

6. 16:28 – 18:27

   grandstanding a new phenomenon

   1. JTJustin Tosi16:28

      tend to do.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:29

      I mean, that just sounds to me like a matrix breaking down the, like, vast majority of tweets with more than 5,000 likes that I've seen during 2020. Like if it's broken 5,000 likes-

   3. JTJustin Tosi16:43

      (laughs) It's a recipe.

   4. CWChris Williamson16:43

      ... and it isn't Macaulay Culkin telling us that he's 40, like it's probably one of those tweets.

   5. JTJustin Tosi16:48

      (laughs) Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:49

      Um, so is grandstanding a new phenomenon? Is it just another byproduct of social media? Or how, how does new technology link in with all the things that you've just said?

   7. JTJustin Tosi17:03

      So when you asked, uh, why people do it, I referred to some just common traits of human beings, that we care what other people think of us, uh, and we think well of ourselves and, and want other people to share that impression. So those are not new traits. Um, those are things that have probably been with us as, as long as we have been recognizably human, working together and caring a- about whether we can trust one another. So the ingredients to grandstand have, have been with us for a very long time, and we think there is in- indeed nothing new a- about the idea, uh, or really about the behavior. What is new is that it's now so much easier for people to grandstand. It's basically costless. So you just pick up your phone and you have an audience, uh, you know, depending on, on how interesting and attractive you are and, and all these things, (laughs) you have an audience of, of hundreds to thousands to millions of, of people, uh, who are just ready to gobble up whatever it is the- that you say. Uh, and moral...... terms, uh, moral, uh, you know, especially emotionally charged, um, moral claims that people might make online. Uh, there's good social science showing these are great ways to get attention. So, what social media does (clears throat) is that it removes so much of the cost of grandstanding, 'cause you don't have to go anywhere

7. 18:27 – 21:01

   the cost of grandstanding

   1. JTJustin Tosi18:27

      to do it. Uh, and it also makes it-

   2. CWChris Williamson18:29

      Co- cost or effort?

   3. JTJustin Tosi18:31

      ... uh, well, bo- both, yeah. So, sorry, I'm being, I'm being-

   4. CWChris Williamson18:34

      I would have just gone, no, ac- academic about it. Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I, I, I just wonder about-

   5. JTJustin Tosi18:38

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry.

   6. CWChris Williamson18:38

      ... the difference between the, the cost and the effort there, because the cost of getting grandstanding wrong online, saying the thing you thought might be different to the effort required to do it. Does that make sense?

   7. JTJustin Tosi18:51

      Good point. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah. So, I d- I mean, uh, so I was thinking mostly of effort.

   8. CWChris Williamson18:57

      Yes.

   9. JTJustin Tosi18:57

      Uh, but you're right. Uh, it also probably changes the way people grandstand. So it probably makes them more careful about it. So that's why s- they have something called the long caption that you're no doubt familiar with, Chris. It's the, the-

   10. CWChris Williamson19:09

       No, what's that?

   11. JTJustin Tosi19:10

       Oh, y- uh, maybe this is not a thing. Um, I, I thought this was a ... so it's when, uh, people on Instagram will post, like, a thirst trap picture, uh, and then they'll have a long caption about whatever social justice issue or, or (laughs) what, yeah, so j- just like a long-

   12. CWChris Williamson19:25

       Also, I, so I do that. I, I am a, I am an absolute-

   13. JTJustin Tosi19:28

       You have a long caption thing?

   14. CWChris Williamson19:29

       ... I'm, I'm, I'm patient, I'm patient zero for that, but it won't be-

   15. JTJustin Tosi19:32

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson19:33

       ... it won't be social justice posturing. It'll be, like, thirst trap photo, um, "I have a new podcast episode now live with Justin Tosi. Link in bio."

   17. JTJustin Tosi19:42

       There you go.

   18. CWChris Williamson19:42

       Um, like, we are-

   19. JTJustin Tosi19:43

       Well, these, that's okay, right? (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson19:44

       All right, fine. Well, I mean, if I'm, if I'm part of the f- the cool kids crowd, that's really all that I care about, man. I just don't wanna feature in grandstanding 2.0.

   21. JTJustin Tosi19:52

       (laughs) Yeah. What ... so, I think that goes to, to the theory that we were talking about before. I mean, so you have, you have something to offer people that's actually interesting. You have a podcast where y- where you have brilliant people on and, and talk to them about, about their books and, (laughs) and whatever else, um, people actually wanna hear about. Uh, but if you don't have anything like that, you have nothing to promote, uh, you can further promote yourself by, uh, by writing up some, some mealy-mouth, like, really carefully measured because, again, you don't wanna, to make people mad and incur some further cost, um, uh, so, right. So what ... Uh, the other thing that social media adds in is, is it just makes it so hard to avoid, uh, other people's grandstanding. Right? So before, you could just, like, not go to political rallies or not go to that one coffee shop in the college town or, or whatever. But now it's like, you know, somebody's mom is j- just, like, won't shut up about whatever is, is in the news, uh, and she wants everybody to know that, you know, she's long stood with, uh, the oppressed and, and so on. And so we see grandstanding everywhere. Uh, so that's what's new, I guess, is just the platform makes it so easy.

8. 21:01 – 22:29

   peoples desire to signal

   1. JTJustin Tosi21:01

   2. CWChris Williamson21:01

      Mm. Yeah. It's, uh ... it's an interesting thing to think about what social media has done to people's desire for, uh, people's desire to signal, right? Because everyone now essentially is their own brand. Like, you wear a Nike T-shirt or an Adidas T-shirt or a this T-shirt or that T-shirt, and immediately people are saying, "Okay, w- what does that say about you that you wore that thing? What does that say about that brand that they are the sort of brand that is worn by that sort of a person?" And the same thing happens with intellectual arguments and concepts and political affiliations, and that your favorite Netflix series that you talk about online. And e- everything now is an opportunity to self-brand. And, uh-

   3. JTJustin Tosi21:46

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:46

      ... I had, um ... couple of years ago, I had Robin Hanson, Elephant in the Brain-

   5. JTJustin Tosi21:50

      Mm-hmm, yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson21:51

      ... on, uh, talking about everything is signaling. And increasingly, I just realized that it, Robin Hanson was always right, that it's just signaling all over the place, and that's it.

   7. JTJustin Tosi22:02

      Yeah. Yeah, so it's all signaling and it's all ... like, this is what fucking sucks so much about it, is it's also, uh, all an opportunity to pick someone apart and, like, nitpick ev- so I mean, I'm sure you, you, you get this. Like, you're, you're more active in social media than, than I am, which is not saying a lot. But, I mean, you probably get ... I actually saw some last ... some just, like, ridiculous responses of people, like, um, I think some guy said you needed a bra or something like that.

9. 22:29 – 24:22

   moral grandstanding

   1. JTJustin Tosi22:29

   2. CWChris Williamson22:29

      Yeah, that was yesterday.

   3. JTJustin Tosi22:30

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson22:30

      Yeah. I mean, to be fair, to be fair, he was right. Um, but-

   5. JTJustin Tosi22:33

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson22:33

      ... you know, I can't, I can't abuse a guy. But e- I think, uh-

   7. JTJustin Tosi22:37

      Yeah, it

   8. NANarrator22:37

      <|agent|><|en|>

   9. CWChris Williamson22:37

      ... there's, there's a few different, there's a few different types of moral grandstanding. The reason that I'm particularly concerned about this, uh, iteration of it is that when you get a, uh, sufficiently large minority of people speaking sufficiently loudly, they can shift the Overton window of acceptable speech in a direction that I actually think it's really difficult to bring it back from. Like, it's now quite hard to have a discussion online saying, "Well, is being pro-choice actually that smart of an idea? Or is there a discussion to be had about being pro-life now around abortion?" Like, that, if you dig into some of the, especially Ben Shapiro's arguments around it, is really, really compelling. But to say it is like, um, moral grandstanding, uh, putting, like, lighting a flare or attaching-

   10. JTJustin Tosi23:35

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson23:36

       ... yourself with one of those laser pointer things that the drones fire in on.

   12. JTJustin Tosi23:39

       Right. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson23:40

       Um, a- and that's like ... th- so the Overton window, for people who don't know, it's th- um, basically a w- a particular window of acceptable speech. And you can swing, you can speak within this window, but if you move too far to the conservative or too far to the progressive side outside of that window, you tend to be, like, ostracized by society and they say, "Uh- m- m- like, what are you talking about?" Like, um ... here's an interesting one, actually. I've wanted to ask this. I've had it in my head for a little while. Peter Thiel, during job applications, asks people, "What is a belief that you hold that most other people think is untrue?"Have you got one off the top of your head? Can you think of one that fits that?

   14. JTJustin Tosi24:17

       Uh, oh, man. I'm gonna get in trouble. Um,

10. 24:22 – 28:30

    paedophiles

    1. JTJustin Tosi24:22

       I got, (sighs) not off the top of my head.

    2. CWChris Williamson24:23

       Got you. So here's-

    3. JTJustin Tosi24:24

       You have any-

    4. CWChris Williamson24:25

       I'll give you-

    5. JTJustin Tosi24:25

       Do you have any examples?

    6. CWChris Williamson24:25

       ... I'll give you mine. So mine is-

    7. JTJustin Tosi24:27

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson24:27

       ... that, um, pedophiles who don't act on their urges require-

    9. JTJustin Tosi24:32

       Uh-huh.

    10. CWChris Williamson24:33

        ... sympathy, not militant, uh, responses. And this came after a conversation with a neuroscientist who taught me that, um, we don't have control, conscious control over our sexual urges, which means that essentially, people who are, um, aroused by children have been cursed with this thing that they can't act on, and that if you have a society which demonizes them, um, ahead of them doing any action, 'cause what's illegal is the action, not the actual th-

    11. JTJustin Tosi25:00

        Right.

    12. CWChris Williamson25:00

        ... thought, right? Because-

    13. JTJustin Tosi25:01

        Not the attraction.

    14. CWChris Williamson25:01

        ... you can't control-

    15. JTJustin Tosi25:01

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson25:01

        You can't control the attraction. Um, and as soon as I had that, I was like, I, I, there is no, there is no other reasonable solution to this, other than that. If anyone is listening and they're interested and go, wants to go back and listen to it, uh, it was the seven deadly sins episode, around about 170, something like that. Um, so that was one thing. But basically, my m- my point there is that we're memetic beings, and this is the reason that Peter Thiel puts it in his, uh, job application, is he's constantly looking for people who are outliers, who are prepared to see outside of the Overton window. And by us being memetic beings, the, the beauty of that question, "What is a belief that you hold that most other people think is untrue or abhorrent or weird or wrong?" And, you know, thinking in that sort of a way allows you to say, "Actually, that person has a very unique world view they have that's different." Um, but yeah, to get back to the Overton window thing, peoples-

    17. JTJustin Tosi25:53

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson25:54

        ... can, uh, if you have a big enough, uh, majority of people, they can shift the entire window of acceptable speech so that something-

    19. JTJustin Tosi26:01

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson26:01

        ... last week, which was, you see this with, um, the way that you, uh, may now have to refer to transitioning men and women online, uh, the, all of the different terms to do with people who have, uh, different, uh, sexual orientations, to do with different gender identities, to do with this, it's like, if you do it for long enough, people kind of can't remember the old thing. It's very 1984.

    21. JTJustin Tosi26:25

        Yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's all really good. Um, so one of the things that, uh, we talk about in The Field Guide of, Uh, to Grandstanding is this thing I called ramping up. Uh, and I think, uh, ramping up explains why the Overton window can shift as it does.

    22. CWChris Williamson26:44

        Oh.

    23. JTJustin Tosi26:44

        Right? Because you'll, I mean, as you say, you get just a group of people who are loud enough, uh, and they keep, um, you know, they circle around this extreme moral view, um, you now, y- you know, once it catches on, you can't say anything to them, uh, that's very far from that position. So, so, I mean, you can have multiple phenomena here. One is you can shift the window to be wider, right? Um, because you'll have multiple groups polarizing in this way, and so, like, we, we now have to talk about all of their beliefs. And I think that can be fine, right? Like some extreme views, it's actually really helpful to talk about them. Um, but you can also, uh, have multiple Overton windows where it's, it's like, um, you know, in, in front of this one public, right? Uh, 'cause you can have a divided public, um, it's only this thing that can be talked about. In front of this other public, it's only this position. So, you know, you said, um, you can't talk about like the Ben Shapiro views on abortion with the pro-choice people. Well, you, you know, you also can't talk about some of the pro-choice arguments with the people who really like the Ben Shapiro stuff. So this really sucks.

    24. CWChris Williamson27:52

        Like ships in the night passing past each other. You've got one group which is speaking about one problem, another group which is speaking about another. But again, Ben Shapiro has a, a wonderful bit about this where he talks about how w- in the pro-choice, pro-life abortion argument, one group is talking about rape cases and incest, and the other group is talking about, um, girls that go out and get drunk, um, every weekend and just-

    25. JTJustin Tosi28:16

        Right.

    26. CWChris Williamson28:16

        ... use it willy-nilly. And it's like-

    27. JTJustin Tosi28:17

        Right.

    28. CWChris Williamson28:17

        ... those aren't mapping onto each other. You're talking about one thing and you're-

    29. JTJustin Tosi28:21

        Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson28:21

        ... talking about another, and these two-
11. 28:30 – 29:19

    gun rights

    1. JTJustin Tosi28:30

       their view.

    2. CWChris Williamson28:30

       And, uh.

    3. JTJustin Tosi28:31

       And that's a real loss.

    4. CWChris Williamson28:32

       Everything's in the middle. The same goes with-

    5. JTJustin Tosi28:34

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson28:34

       ... the gun rights, right? Like, it's one person's talking about, "Should you be able to have an AR-15 with an, a semi-automatic turning stock on the back?" And the other person's saying, "Well, I just want someone, I, like, I want to have a handgun that can protect myself in the home." Like, those aren't the same... They're not talking about the same thing.

    7. JTJustin Tosi28:52

       Yeah. Yeah, and, uh, I mean, and like you said earlier, if you try to s- to stake out some position in the middle where you actually want to talk about a sensible, like, nuanced view, it's like you're, you're making your, you know, you're putting a target on your back, right? So you're putting chum in the water, I get to introduce even more metaphors, for, for both sides, right? And they're, they're both just like, I mean, look, if we can agree on anything, it's that this guy sucks.

    8. CWChris Williamson29:17

       (laughs) Yeah.

    9. JTJustin Tosi29:18

       Right?

    10. CWChris Williamson29:18

        Yeah, 'cause

12. 29:19 – 30:59

    the black sheep effect

    1. CWChris Williamson29:19

       he's not you, but he's not us.

    2. JTJustin Tosi29:21

       Yeah. Right, right.

    3. CWChris Williamson29:21

       Douglas, Douglas Murray hit the nail on the head about this in a conversation I had with him, and he said that a subtle or nuanced view to the opposition seems like a lack of conviction about your ideology wholesale.

    4. JTJustin Tosi29:38

       Yeah. I think that's totally right. So o- one thing that we talk about in the book is what psychologists call the black sheep effect. Uh, so the black sheep effect is this kind of strange on the face of it phenomenon, uh, of people really disliking the, uh, the kind of weakly committed members of their group. Um, so the way it works is they see these people as not trustworthy, right? So they think like, they don't really get the principles. So, um...... in the U.S., uh, I mean, I'm sure there are examples of, of this in, in, in the UK, in UK politics too. Um, you know, John McCain used to be this guy who, who like, the Democrats actually kind of liked him. He's a r- he was a Republican senator. The Democrats were like, "This guy's okay," you know, 'cause sometimes he votes with us. Um, but the Republicans, whenever John McCain would, would defect, they're like, "This son of a bitch, like this guy..." (laughs) "We can't count on this guy for anything." Um, right? So he's their black sheep. So no one wants to be the black sheep of, of their group because they know then that makes them like, you know, uh, well, the black sheep, right? It makes people not like them, not trust them. Um, and so it, it is why it's so dangerous for people, uh, to express any doubt about the strongly held beliefs of their group. So they grandstand instead.

13. 30:59 – 33:02

    Jordan Peterson

    1. JTJustin Tosi30:59

    2. CWChris Williamson30:59

       Jordan Peterson, in his conversation with the lady from GQ, that was like when they got that, uh, Cathy Newman and they sent her away. It wasn't Cathy Newman, but it was like they'd sent Cathy Newman away, put her on a course of steroids-

    3. JTJustin Tosi31:12

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson31:12

       ... and research for like six months, and then she, she came back like, "We've made her stronger, faster, bigger." And uh-

    5. JTJustin Tosi31:17

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson31:18

       ... and he m- m- does this wonderful point where he says, "I shouldn't be able to guess the rest of your views when I only know one of them." And that appears to be the converse of what we're discussing here, that you need someone to take their ideology wholesale, not piecemeal, and the reason for that is that it allows the rest of the tribe to better predict their future behavior. Look, we don't need to worry about Jim. Jim's fucking sweet. It's Tom that we need to worry about-

    7. JTJustin Tosi31:44

       (laughs)

    8. CWChris Williamson31:44

       ... because Tom likes free markets, but actually, he's pro-choice, or Tom likes restricted gun control-

    9. JTJustin Tosi31:52

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson31:52

        ... but actually he's a little bit more right-leaning, or what, you know, whatever it might be, um, because it's the chink in the armor.

    11. JTJustin Tosi31:59

        Right. Yeah. Uh, so this is, this is just such a puzzle to me, to like e- anyone who's like ever read philosophy, it's, it's like, well, hold on, like your position on free markets and your position on abortion, these things should have almost nothing to do with each other. (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson32:13

        (laughs)

    13. JTJustin Tosi32:13

        Right? But in general, if you find out what someone thinks a- about the one thing, um, you pretty much g- you can guess pretty reliably what they think about the other thing. Um, so how can we explain this? I mean, so it, it's, it's just, it seems because the ideas aren't, aren't really doing the driving here, it's, it's the tribalism. Uh, it's the people, you know, they might feel really strongly about the one issue and then they fall in with a group, uh, who feel strongly about that issue, and then they have all these other commitments. And in order to remain like in, in the good graces of, of this group, people have to ev- evince some belief, uh, in all of the other orthogonal issues that, um, that are popular, uh, or, you know, that people tend to take a, a particular position on within their network.

14. 33:02 – 34:42

    Eric Weinstein

    1. JTJustin Tosi33:02

    2. CWChris Williamson33:02

       And that can continue to go further and further toward the extreme and drag other people with it.

    3. JTJustin Tosi33:08

       Exactly.

    4. CWChris Williamson33:08

       And I guess this is where you get sort of silent majorities. Uh, Bret Weinstein or E- Eric Weinstein had a wonderful point about this where he said, "The problem with the left at the moment is that the moderate left is allowing the extreme left to do the work for them and not speaking up about it." Now, that is silence is compliance with the extreme people on your side. Like you can't expect people on the other side of the aisle to speak up for your point of view. That's not going to happen. But there is a gradation within your point of view, and that is why the people should be speaking up, unless of course everyone's taking their point of view wholesale.

    5. JTJustin Tosi33:45

       Yeah. So this is something that I, I think is just so damaging about grandstanding, uh, is that, like I said, we need people who are dissenters within their group to be able to speak up. There should be a low cost, uh, to a- asserting an unpopular belief or to challenging the orthodoxy, uh, because when there is a low cost o- of doing so, uh, so sorry, I'm, I'm again being academic, so what I mean is, um-

    6. CWChris Williamson34:11

       They love it.

    7. JTJustin Tosi34:11

       ... when people are not... (laughs)

    8. CWChris Williamson34:13

       They love it.

    9. JTJustin Tosi34:13

       No, they don't. (laughs) Uh, when it's safe for people to speak up and express doubt, they're more likely to do so. And the result is people then get to engage with a challenge to their view. And what you emerge with, hopefully, uh, is a, a, a more strongly justified belief, uh, rather than just a, a comfortable orthodoxy that becomes, uh, what John Stuart Mill would call a dead dogma. So it's something that people believe, they forget why they believed it, um, but they're not

15. 34:42 – 37:59

    Examples of grandstanding

    1. JTJustin Tosi34:42

       gonna question it.

    2. CWChris Williamson34:42

       I love that. A dead dogma. Man, iron-

    3. JTJustin Tosi34:45

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson34:45

       ... iron sharpens iron. That's why-

    5. JTJustin Tosi34:47

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson34:48

       ... having good conversations is, is real important. What were some of the most extreme examples of grandstanding that you found? The one where someone tweeted that a two-year-old eaten by a crocodile-

    7. JTJustin Tosi34:59

       Oh, my God.

    8. CWChris Williamson34:59

       ... shouldn't b- deserve sympathy because she was sick of white men's entitlement seemed-

    9. JTJustin Tosi35:04

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson35:05

        ... a bit mental.

    11. JTJustin Tosi35:06

        Yeah. Right. So what... This is like a kid got killed by an alligator. Oh, and then like because like, uh, I think there had been a shooting or something recently and people were like, "Oh yeah, well, I mean, we're down on white people right now." So like to the credit of, of the mob, like this, this was seen as finally too far.

    12. CWChris Williamson35:23

        Okay. All right.

    13. JTJustin Tosi35:24

        (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson35:24

        So that one was outside of the Overton window, uh, in terms of extremity.

    15. JTJustin Tosi35:28

        Yeah. Well, but within a certain group, um-

    16. CWChris Williamson35:31

        Probably fine.

    17. JTJustin Tosi35:31

        ... it w- it was like, "Great." Yeah, exactly. Yeah. White men, I'm, yeah. Time for some of these white men to get eaten by alligators, right? Like

    18. NANarrator35:38

        (laughs)

    19. JTJustin Tosi35:38

        It's, it's their turn.

    20. CWChris Williamson35:38

        No. The white men are two-year-olds, two-year-old daughters.

    21. JTJustin Tosi35:41

        Yeah. And their children. Yeah. Too. Exactly. Right. (laughs)

    22. CWChris Williamson35:44

        What were some of the other ones? What were some of the more extreme or the extreme examples that you found?

    23. JTJustin Tosi35:49

        Yeah. Uh, so Gamergate is al- is always a good one for this. Um, so this was, um, uh... This is still very difficult for me to explain, uh, because I think this is like one of the first like nerd culture things that became sort of mainstream and it was just like not explained very well. But this is, uh, basically like people started, um, getting worked up about, um...... two things a- about both kind of cozy relationships between game publishers and game critics. Uh, so that, that like the reviews were, were just sort of like industry pieces about like why this is a great thing and you need it, but also, um, about games becoming too political so, you know, um, games like shoehorning in representation of trans characters or like lesbian characters or, or things like this. Anyway, um, a feminist media critic kind of called attention to a, a lot of like the toxic, um, responses, uh, from people who didn't like the politics, at least... I, I'm gonna get emails now of people correcting me, just, "No, that's not what it's about, it's really about ethic-"

    24. CWChris Williamson36:55

        Fine, it doesn't matter. The, the, the internet corrects everyone, Justin.

    25. JTJustin Tosi36:58

        I know. (laughs)

    26. CWChris Williamson36:59

        We're here, we're here to be corrected.

    27. JTJustin Tosi37:01

        Yeah, I know it. Um, but anyway, so, I mean, people were sending her death threats, um, just like, you know-

    28. CWChris Williamson37:06

        Oh, wow.

    29. JTJustin Tosi37:07

        Like everyone's calling her a bitch online and, you know, saying she needs to get raped and, um, you know, she... so it's Anita Sarkeesian, she's collected all of these like horrible, uh, responses and, you know, so how, how do you explain this? It's not all grandstanding, right? Some of it is, is actually just people being crazy and like psychos, but, you know, you can see why for someone in a certain community, um, the thing to do is express like extreme disdain for this person who is a threat to their like cherished beliefs, uh, about what video games should be or sh- (laughs) something like this.

    30. CWChris Williamson37:41

        Oh, fame.
16. 37:59 – 43:11

    The Las Vegas shooting example

    1. JTJustin Tosi37:59

    2. CWChris Williamson37:59

       Wasn't the, wasn't it like the lawyer from a big TV company had tweeted after the Las Vegas shooting saying that, um, 847 people have been injured, 120 people have been killed, but most people that listen to country music are gun-toting Republican hicks so I don't really care.

    3. JTJustin Tosi38:19

       Yeah. Yeah, right. So this is another one that finally went too far, I think. (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson38:23

       (laughs)

    5. JTJustin Tosi38:23

       But, but yeah, there were still people... I- it was a viral tweet, people liked this, right? Because it was like, like, I mean, "Okay, finally, someone willing to say, uh, what the rest of us are thinking." (laughs) Like, "This group is so bad and they want everyone to have guns anyway, they should get killed by, by the guns." Um, so yeah, this is, this is like moral talk run amok, right? So the thing that we point out, uh, the reason we talk about these crazy ex- examples is that we think people have this, this kind of naive view that whenever someone is talking about justice or whenever someone, someone is talking about like what people deserve, uh, anything that, that sounds like social justice-y or, or... forget, you know, it's not like it's a right-left issue, anything that sounds like it's about morality, people think like, "Oh, well this person, like their heart is in the right place." Like even if they're wrong, they're trying to like say something important here. And it's not always that way, right? So people can actually... you can give a moral evaluation of the way people use moral talk and this is what we're doing when we talk about grandstanding. We're saying like, "Look, you can actually think critically about the way people are using this practice." Right? And it's easiest to see when it's someone going off the deep end and talking about how kids should get killed and, and things like that. (laughs) But it can also happen, um, just with everyday ordinary speech, uh, when people, uh, are using it to look good rather, uh, than to do good. And that's what they're doing when they're grandstanding.

    6. CWChris Williamson39:50

       Is grandstanding a moral problem, then?

    7. JTJustin Tosi39:55

       It is. Yeah. So, um, we give arguments from every major moral theory. So we point out, uh, that grandstanding has bad consequences. Some people think morality is all about the consequences of actions and if that's your view, uh, you should be really worried about the polarization that we've talked about, uh, with grandstanding, about people becoming really cynical a- about morality and people just, uh, you know, feeling outrage exhaustion. Like, "Oh God, I just can't, you know, I... e- everything's outrageous all the time, I can't do it anymore. I can't tell what like is actually outrageous," and so it all stops working. Uh, there are also arguments that we give about respect. Uh, so we say, for instance, that, uh, one of the things people do when they grandstand, again, is to like pick a target, right? And use that person as like a display model or it's like no one's... you know, no one needs this thing, we can just beat the hell out of it just to show everyone, you know, a demonstration of our, our moral credentials, um, and, you know, uh, it doesn't matter. Right? But of course it does matter. You're not supposed to treat people that way. Uh, and even if they deserve it, right, even if they've done something bad, like first of all, you're probably going to go too far. Mob- mobs are not known for their restraint. Um, and you're also just gonna be on the lookout for opportunities to beat people up like this. So to use people as an opportunity to showcase how good you are. Uh, and then finally we give some arguments, uh, about moral virtue. Um, my favorite of, of these is, uh, we draw on this, uh, this philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. Uh, some of your listeners may be familiar with him. And we say, "Look, um, people like a challenge." Right? Uh, so Nietzsche says we all have something he calls the will to power. So we all hate obstacles in a way, right? Because they're in the way of, of us getting what we want, but we also need them, uh, because we need that satisfaction that we get from overcoming, uh, an obstacle, of, of beating a challenge. So, you know, we all have opportunities to do this, um, in all areas of our life, we can actually do something that's a real achievement, um, we can, you know, do really well at work, uh, we can hit, hit a new personal record in, in the gym, um, whatever else. Uh, we can also, uh, kind of make up a challenge that's, that's just sort of, um-... you know, invented for the purpose of us achieving something. And this is, uh, a sort of, like, a cheat. Uh, and this is what people do with grandstanding, we think. We- we think they, uh, they act as if it's an achievement, uh, to say something morally charged, uh, that shows what a good person they are. But of course, this isn't a real achievement. Uh, it's actually just an abuse of morality. So morality is supposed to be about helping other people, about being kind to them, about, uh, resolving important social problems. But what grandstanders do is they turn morality into just an opportunity to show other people how good they are and- and, you know, what an achievement for- for me to have such pure moral beliefs. Uh, but this is an empty achievement, uh, and it's actually kind of pathetic if you think about it that way.

17. 43:11 – 49:25

    grandstanding in politics

    1. JTJustin Tosi43:12

    2. CWChris Williamson43:12

       (sighs) Man. This wea- this weaponizing of the, something which at its core should be really, really virtuous, um, is- is really worrying. And you s- we're seeing it a lot at the moment. Moving into an area that I know sweet fuck all about, why is grandstanding a particular problem in politics?

    3. JTJustin Tosi43:37

       Hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson43:38

       'Cause I can talk about the, uh, uh, way that someone perhaps should, uh, maximize their own agency in life and- and use their sovereign will to become the things that they can be. Um, I just, I haven't started to draw that perspective out to kind of the collective. Uh, and I found it really interesting that you guys did discuss how grandstanding acts as a problem in politics.

    5. JTJustin Tosi44:03

       Sure. So, um, politics is heavily moralized now. Everyone wants to see that their politicians have good character. This isn't really new, again, but now I think it's- it's probably even more common because people, uh, like to feel like they have this personal relationship with their politicians, probably because of- of social media. So politicians have this strong incentive to show people how good they are. Now that might be good, right? It mi- it's good for people to be informed, uh, it's good for people to know what they're getting when, uh, they- they vote for someone, uh, but again, just because someone says something doesn't mean that it actually is good information, right? Uh, or, uh, that it sets up good incentives for them, uh, to actually do their job once they're in office. So a couple of problems that come up here. One is that in democracies we have kind of split representation of viewpoints in government. We need our representatives to be able to work together and compromise, to give up, you know, something that's kind of on the periphery of- of what we care about in order to achieve a solution to the- the really big problem. So we need them to b- to have a little bit of leeway, a little bit of flexibility. But once politicians start taking strong moral stances, because they're incentivized to do so, they lose some of this- this flexibility. They, uh, are expected then, uh, not to give an inch. And because of this, they can't then work together and give up a little to get a lot, right? So instead, you know, we see this especially in the States right now, uh, where at least our last couple of presidents have governed by executive order, uh, because it's such a popular position in- among legislators to say, "You know, I'm not working with those people. They're corrupt." And if you do, it's again, chum in the water, right? Because you're the black sheep. Everybody sees you're not reliable. You seem, uh, not principled because you're willing to- to compromise. Uh, and so this is- this is really dangerous, right? So it makes democracy really dysfunctional. The other thing that- that happens so much in politics, uh, is that if you turn, like, political action into a morality pageant, um, you create incentives for- for politicians to look like, um, they're doing something really morally good, that people can see immediately their heart is in the right place, uh, even if it turns out for, you know, com- you know, complicated, like, nerdy reasons, uh, it doesn't work, right? So, uh, effectively then, politicians start to, uh, propose what we call expressive policies. So these are policies that on the face of it sound really good. They make it clear, uh, well, at least if- if the person's sincere, that the person proposing the policy, their heart is in the right place, they care a lot about the issue, uh, but they don't actually work. So all- all they end up doing is being a symbolic gesture. So a good example of this is rent control. Every economist recognizes rent control does not work. It does not actually-

    6. CWChris Williamson47:24

       What- what is rent control?

    7. JTJustin Tosi47:25

       Rent control is, uh, setting a limit on how much landlords can- can raise, uh, the price of- of rent. Uh, basically on- on, uh, putting a ceiling on what people end up paying for rent. So I mean, what could be bad about that, right? It s- it sounds great. Like you look at your lease, you're like, "I wish that number was lower." Uh, and rent control promises to give you that very thing. But the problem is when, and you see this over and over again in cities that have imposed rent control, the result is a shortage in affordable housing, which is, you know, exactly the, uh, the opposite of what we're supposed to get. Uh, but for compli- you know, complicated reasons, at least, you know, uh, sort of complicated reasons, um, landlords, you know, then see rent, uh, uh, see, you know, um, uh...... you know, hou- housing developments and, and investing in, in making places, you know, good to, places to live. Uh, they see this as not a good investment, right, because the return is limited by their rent control policy. So, at least in the long term, what you get is no more new housing, crumbling old housing, uh, and people rushing to fill, you know, the a- the affordable spaces. So, you get somewhere like New York City where people have lived there for, like, 80 years or something, or are lying about, you know, still living there when it's their great-aunt or something that is, is on a lease, and it's just, like, gifted it to them. Um, you get people like this having their, you know, $300 a month apartment, uh, subsidized by people who have just moved there and are paying, like, you know, $3,000 a month or whatever. Um, so back to politics, I mean, the incentive for politicians is not to, like, go through all of this, 'cause it's really boring, right? (laughs) For most people who just want to pay lower rent, the incentive is for them to, to make people feel like, "Finally, someone is addressing my needs. They're doing something about, uh, something that I, I need addressed." Uh, and so you get these policies that sound good and don't work.

18. 49:25 – 52:44

    sargon of akkad

    1. JTJustin Tosi49:25

    2. CWChris Williamson49:25

       I identified a problem with Sargon of Akkad a few weeks ago about Joe Biden's response where he flip-flopped from saying that the travel ban from China at the beginning of COVID was xenophobic and racist and some other words, and then two and a half months later said that Trump had done it too late. This, to me, this entire situation, and that as a particularly simple example, is so worrying because politicians should be the best of us. They should be the most virtuous, the most truthful, with the most transparency. They should be held to the highest levels of rigor. They should be the most precise with their speech. Everything should be fact-checked. Everything should be, right. Well, that, that doesn't follow on from the thing that you said before, whereas when things are simply said for effect right now, there is... I, I can't trust what comes out of people's mouths.

    3. JTJustin Tosi50:22

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson50:22

       And unfortunately, as you identified with social media, the people at the top of the tree are examples for those further down it. And if, uh, in an increasingly politicized society at the moment, people are taking that to be, "Well, Joe Biden, presidential candidate, Democratic nominee, if he's able to flip-flop around his sort of points of view, then why can't I weaponize my points of view?" And I, I don't want to live in a world where people lie. Ideally, I'd have everyone read Sa- take the red pill on lying and read Sam Harris's book and never lie. At least I'd know where I fucking stand. But in this situation, it seems like as long as the, as long as the recourse isn't greater... It's like a mathematical equation. If recourse isn't greater than moral outcome, and there's an if function of, like, is not, um, too conservative, then okay to get away with. Like, you know, it's like a s- a weird sort of gated piece of computer code. Uh, but-

    5. JTJustin Tosi51:26

       (clears throat)

    6. CWChris Williamson51:26

       ... I, I don't want, I don't want the politicians to be able to say stuff and, and not be, not be called out for it, man. At all.

    7. JTJustin Tosi51:34

       Yeah, I mean, that's right. Uh, so w- we do want to hold people to account. The worry is, um, that the incentive is not good for them when they're held to immediate account. So, here's something no one wants to hear when they're upset about something. "We don't have all the information yet. We need, we need to look into this and then, you know, do some investigating, figure out what actually happened, uh, and then we'll figure out what to do." Um, because if you say that, the people who are, like, screaming for blood immediately, like, they, they want a solution right now, uh, will be really mad, right? So, you know, we see this problem with politicians as primarily one about incentives. So, we get what we ask for from politicians in, in a democracy. So, if, if what we want, uh, is just to be comforted, uh, to, to be reassured that the people in, in power are, are good, um, we'll get these, these irresponsible moral proclamations, uh, rather than people being willing to, to take a little heat, um, and, and take their time and do their job right, uh, in, in ways that we won't immediately recognize, uh, as, as them doing their job right.

19. 52:44 – 1:11:32

    how to fix the problem

    1. JTJustin Tosi52:44

    2. CWChris Williamson52:44

       How do we fix this? Big problem. Lots of layers to it. There's political implications. There's personal implications. I'm really, really concerned about self-deception, wildly concerned about self-deception because I think that that restricts, uh, an individual sovereign agency over themselves-

    3. JTJustin Tosi53:01

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson53:02

       ... um, which is p- really, really pernicious. So, what do we, what do we do? Can you, can you fix it for us, just a bit?

    5. JTJustin Tosi53:08

       (laughs) I can't, but I, I can tell you how to, uh, how to help fix it.

    6. CWChris Williamson53:12

       Cool.

    7. JTJustin Tosi53:13

       Um, so, uh, the most tempting thing to do here, probably, for most people is you wanna pick up this book Grandstanding and figure out how to find these grandstanders and go after them and humiliate them, make them stop it. Um, call them out. But that is exactly the thing that you should not do.

    8. CWChris Williamson53:31

       Why?

    9. JTJustin Tosi53:32

       Uh, b- Uh, so for one thing, it won't work. Uh, it will just be turned right around on you. People will say, "Well, actually, you're grandstanding." First of all, because w- people will think any, any use of moral terms at all now is, is grandstanding, which is, is not good. Uh, and that is not our view, by the way. (laughs) Um, but also because they wanna defend the person in, in their tribe, right? Or the, the person they agree with, and they don't want to be called grandstanders themselves. Uh, another reason not to do this is you're giving the grandstander exactly what they want. They want public discourse to be about how good they are. So, if you start calling them out for grandstanding, they're like, "Oh, that's very interesting. Let's talk about whether I'm a good person." That's, you know-

    10. CWChris Williamson54:13

        (laughs)

    11. JTJustin Tosi54:13

        Uh, that sounds like a great thing for us to-

    12. CWChris Williamson54:15

        Yeah. Okay.

    13. JTJustin Tosi54:15

        ... to be arguing about. Right? So, so that's no good. Um, so what we say instead is, uh, you should treat this problem, uh, as an opportunity to examine your own behavior. So, what you should do about other, other people you think, you think they're grandstanding is just ignore them.... right? Uh, because ignoring someone you think is grandstanding is, is probably no worse than, than just, like, not being on social media at all, which is not bad. Um, but what you can do is when you're about to contribute to some political discussion, ask yourself, uh, "Am I trying to do good here, or am I just trying to look good?" So, to give a, a slightly more fine-grain test you can run, you can say, okay, let me imagine I say this thing, I type out this, like, you know, 3,000-word post or, or whatever. Uh, and then suppose I learn, you know, a day later nobody really cared about me at all. They didn't think anything, uh, better o- of me because of, of this. I failed to, like, impress them. Would I be disappointed, or, or would I instead be comfortably like, "Well, ma- you know, at least someone saw something important morally." Right? Because if you would be disappointed that you didn't get anything for yourself, you are probably grandstanding. You are motivated to say that thing because you wanted recognition. Uh, and that's precisely the thing that, that you should avoid doing. Um, so, uh, in other words, you know, you should take this book as an opportunity to examine your own behavior. Uh, and if you don't like what you see, maybe sit one out, right? Uh ...

    14. CWChris Williamson55:52

        Self-policing when there are so many group incentives to go along with the group. I mean, the solution is to sell 7.9 billion copies of Grandstanding, which I'm sure that you would be fantastically I think that sounds ideal, Chris.

    15. JTJustin Tosi56:10

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson56:10

        Yeah.

    17. JTJustin Tosi56:10

        (laughs)

    18. CWChris Williamson56:10

        I know. Everyone w- everyone wins. Use the affiliate link in the, in the show notes below, please, 'cause I can retire along with you. We can just-

    19. JTJustin Tosi56:16

        Good.

    20. CWChris Williamson56:16

        ... y- Cayman Islands, just grandstanding to fuck on the top of the, the new plane that we bought. Um-

    21. JTJustin Tosi56:22

        Hell, yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson56:23

        But, like, that's, that's a good way for the people that are listening who are reasonable, intelligent human beings that want to try and make themselves and discourse better. Um, but that doesn't actually get at the groupthink problem that we've got going on here. Are you hoping that simply by not giving them our attention that they're gonna stop doing it? That seems a little short-sighted.

    23. JTJustin Tosi56:48

        Well, uh, I am taking the long view here. So it may, it probably looks short-sighted, um, but here's, here's what I think. Um, so imagine you did that, right? Imagine y- like, you wrote out, uh, a, a big p- Uh, look, to be honest with you, I've p- I've done this. I've, like, I've engaged in grandstanding. It's just a human thing. Uh, it does not feel good when you, like, take a stab at it and you get no attention at all, right? So, the thinking here is that if enough of us start to ignore, uh, this attention-seeking behavior, it will come to be seen as embarrassing. So, an example that we, we give in the book is think of, um, or rather look into (laughs) , because people generally don't know about this, um, look at Medieval, uh, dining etiquette guides. So, there are actually books in, in the Middle Ages, uh, about how to behave at the table. And it's things like, don't blow your nose in the tablecloth. Don't pick up a bone off the serving dish and, like, gnaw on it and then put it back on every, you know, the food everybody else is gonna eat. It's stuff that's like, "What the fuck?" Like, what were these people doing? Why did they have to be told any of this in a book, by the way, that, like, only educated people are gonna read? So, it's, like, unthinkable, uh, that any of this was ever normal behavior, but apparently it was. Um, so the, the hope is, like, as crazy as it sounded then, like, to get people to, like, stop blowing their nose in the tablecloth, maybe, maybe that's the position we're in now with grandstanding. Like, the norms just haven't yet caught up to the social conditions, and they can. So, people, people will come to see it as, like, really gauche, uh, to engage in, in moral grandstanding, right? It'll, it'll be seen as shameful that, you know, the sort of thing where, like, you see, you know, your, your partner doing it at, at, uh, a dinner party or something. You're like, "Okay, we need, we need to go home." Like, you've had enough, right?

    24. CWChris Williamson58:46

        (laughs)

    25. JTJustin Tosi58:46

        (laughs)

    26. CWChris Williamson58:47

        That's enough wine, Justin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. JTJustin Tosi58:49

        Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, we, you know, it's not very satisfying, but what we need is for these good norms to emerge. And I, uh, in the long run, at least, I'm hopeful. Uh, so if grandstanding doesn't destroy the world first, I think we, we will get there.

    28. CWChris Williamson59:03

        So, here's, here's a, a little conception that I was playing around with recently. I think that the people who are the funniest critics and have created the framework that grandstanders go through, I'm thinking the James Lindseys of this world, the Douglas Murrays, the Andrew Doyles of this world, they have weaponized ridicule and insight to counteract this. Now, it's all well and good us, um, saying, right, "I'm just gonna... You know, you want my fucking attention, mate. I'm not giving it to you. We can chill out." What you need to do is also have a, th- that is the... How would you say? That is the guy who is getting shot with paintballs and has a full metal suit on and just doesn't engage in the game. But what you also need are a couple of nuclear warheads who can go in-

    29. JTJustin Tosi1:00:00

        (laughs)

    30. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

        ... and completely decimate the battlefield, and make it so toxic for anyone to go into that area again. Perfect example of this, think of the word woke.

Episode duration: 1:11:32