The Art of an Authentic Comeback - Jon Bellion

Chris Williamson 0:00 New album.

Jon Bellion 0:01 Yep.

Chris Williamson 0:01 But you're not touring right now.

Jon Bellion 0:03 No.

Chris Williamson 0:03 Why?

Jon Bellion 0:03 (laughs) Right into it. Um, the touring thing is, uh, it's been a bit of a... I toured for a really long time before I walked away from artistry for about six or seven years. Um, I've given this, uh, this spiel a couple of times, but it's just like kind of figured out how the ins and outs worked of it. Understood what the toll on my life was opposed to what I was getting paid for what I was bringing in, and the business just didn't make sense of it. So I've walked away from that a long time ago and then was able to, this time around, just kind of like really do inventory on what's important to me and what I want to do. And we were able to do, uh, Forest Hills Stadium, just two nights, back to back, sold out in a couple hours (laughs) . And, uh, because the deal was right, and I understand the business more, I can just drive home in my minivan and collect my money and be paid more than I've ever done for touring combined in two nights.

Chris Williamson 0:53 Two nights made you more than entire tours previously?

Jon Bellion 0:55 Yeah. Yeah. Just 'cause the d- because... I don't regret any of it, but it just, it definitely put it in perspective, "Oh, oh, this is how they're killing you. This is how they're getting you on the backside." And-

Chris Williamson 1:04 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:05 So, yeah. Yeah. So we ended up doing just two nights. 26,000 people showed up. It's crazy. Crazy. After s- ever- after six or seven years of being away, it was like moving, super emotional.

Chris Williamson 1:15 After such a long hiatus, were you surprised by the positive response to the album and the-

Jon Bellion 1:21 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:21 ... the Forest Hills shows?

Jon Bellion 1:22 Yeah. I think you, you, you build up, like, it's like Dre with Detox or, like, you build up this thing and then the expectation becomes so high that you'll never be able to whatever. So I think I was fortunate enough to just like disappear and go away and write for other people for a super long time.

Chris Williamson 1:37 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:38 And I think that the pressure was off because I think the fans after a while were just like, "I actually just don't think he'll ever put out music again." So then when I was like, "I'm putting out music," they didn't have time for there to be this unrealistic expectation of like Step Brothers 2 (laughs) . Like, they didn't have to, it didn't have to be Dumb and Dumber 2. Like, it just was... And on top of that, I just like became a completely different person in seven years. Like, you're tapping in with a t- the sound was different. My approach was different. Everything was different. So I think people were like fascinated and interested, and it ended up being a blessing. It was a bigger debut, top six in the country, top 10 in the world, like. And I'm not even like fakely like, "Oh, it's b- it's been a shock of a blessing," and it's, and this time around, you don't get to do things twice.

Chris Williamson 2:18 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 2:18 I almost feel like I'm like Scrooge or something, like I woke up on Christmas again, and I'm like, "I get to do this over."

Chris Williamson 2:23 Run it back.

Jon Bellion 2:23 So looking out at a stadium, sold out, two nights in a row, and I've never done that six years ago. Somehow it got bigger by the time I came back. I wasn't even in my own self. I was like watching the movie being like, "This is crazy."

Chris Williamson 2:37 How'd that feel? You're so familiar with playing, performing live stuff.

Jon Bellion 2:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:41 And then you do it-

Jon Bellion 2:42 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:42 ... and it's the same, it's the shit that you've done hundreds of times before.

Jon Bellion 2:46 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:47 And it's different at the same time.

Jon Bellion 2:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:49 I'm interested in what that-

Jon Bellion 2:51 I had one of my guys who's played with me since we were in college, my, my buddy George, he's one of my, my closest, closest friends. And, uh, he was on keys behind me, and we both after the show just like held each other. Like, just like, you don't e- at this point, it's like I'm on such borrowed time. I really feel that way. Like, that's like you don't get to walk away and then end up being like nailing a few number ones to like pay for your life and then accept the fact that the artist is never coming back.

Chris Williamson 3:14 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 3:15 And then the label's like, "You know what? He's worth more to us giving him what he wants than him just never putting it out 'cause I don't think he's bluffing anymore." Like, he will not put out music.

Chris Williamson 3:23 So you played a game of chicken, basically.

Jon Bellion 3:25 A six-year game of chicken, oh, and then had to go to therapy-

Chris Williamson 3:28 (laughs) .

Jon Bellion 3:28 ... and, and, you know, really settled it in my heart that it's like, "This is okay." If this-

Chris Williamson 3:32 I retire.

Jon Bellion 3:32 ... if this guy is planning on my life, I'm-

Chris Williamson 3:33 Retire.

Jon Bellion 3:34 I'm never gonna do this, and I will serve other people forever in their vision, like, that's fine. And I get a lot out of that, and I learned a lot about serving people for a long time, other artists. For sure, like it definitely gave me a tool belt, and my vocal ability grew and stuff. But playing that show, looking out, man, run a clip (laughs) if you want. Like, you can clip to it. It's just, it was nuts. It was nuts. I've played festivals and stuff, but I've never solo sold out back to back 13,000 people in a night. It's just crazy. It's crazy. With, with zero help from the machine or whatever. It's crazy.

Chris Williamson 4:06 I'm interested in the hiatus and the fact that your fans still showed by enough that you spent years away-

Jon Bellion 4:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:13 ... because I think most people in every industry feel like they always need to be producing content-

Jon Bellion 4:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:18 ... to keep their fans engaged.

Jon Bellion 4:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:20 Have you got any idea why people stayed resonant with you despite the fact that you were absent-

Jon Bellion 4:27 It's probably-

Chris Williamson 4:27 ... uh, front-facing?

Jon Bellion 4:28 Yeah. It's pro- it's probably a mixture of, uh... It's probably a mixture of, like, you know, what you don't have. It's like you only sell 10 T-shirts, so then at the time the 10 T-shirts come out again, you don't know if they're gonna only do 10 again. So you, you're gonna, you're gonna get the T-shirt. You know-

Chris Williamson 4:43 Scarcity.

Jon Bellion 4:43 ... you're excited about-

Chris Williamson 4:44 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 4:45 I think there's a scarcity thing and the content stuff, I'm a very, like I- I still am in real time figuring out as we're talking what content even... It's just not for me. It's not for me. It takes, it takes up too much space in my mind. It causes me to not be present with my family. It's, it's, it's odd. And you've, it's like funny, I'm like talking to the guy who's like... And you've had probably s- you've spoken to so many prolific people about it so your knowledge of, well, it's probably way deeper than mine. But I just don't feel, uh, like I say it all the time, I'm not selling a chair. I'm selling me. And I go into Town Square, and I get on a pedestal, and I say, "These are my beliefs about life. This is my art. This is, this is the deepest reflection I could possibly excavate of myself." And someone in the background goes, "Fuck you. I don't like it." It's like they're telling me they don't like me. I'm not selling... If you don't like a table I made-

Chris Williamson 5:33 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 5:33 ... someone can say, "I don't like the table," and I can somehow, even though the table is a representation of me, I could somehow separate myself to try to draw people to the table-

Chris Williamson 5:42 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 5:42 ... not draw people to me.

Chris Williamson 5:43 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 5:44 And the self-obsession stuff, it's tough. It's tough with kids. It's tough in a marriage. It's, it's tough. It's, it's tough to constantly be like, I wake up and how will my next decision make me look and my brand for the next chapter of my life?

Chris Williamson 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 5:58 That's a tough, and that's a tough person to be around. It's tough for people to be around that a lot. When every move is this concerted effort to-... so, honestly, me walking away from music wasn't that hard because I never enjoyed... And it doesn't, I'm not like down to earth Cool Joe number one, I just-

Chris Williamson 6:15 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 6:15 ... "Hey, guy..." It's not-

Chris Williamson 6:17 When were you furthest away from that resonance?

Jon Bellion 6:21 What do you mean?

Chris Williamson 6:22 You, so you mentioned that you're, uh, trying to be as, uh, transparent, as, as connected as possible to the work that you do-

Jon Bellion 6:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:29 ... to the artistic integrity-

Jon Bellion 6:31 Yep.

Chris Williamson 6:31 ... of how you're producing things-

Jon Bellion 6:33 Yep.

Chris Williamson 6:33 ... your time with your family-

Jon Bellion 6:34 Totally.

Chris Williamson 6:35 ... presumably time with friends.

Jon Bellion 6:36 Yes.

Chris Williamson 6:37 E- even like album artwork. You, you're deep on everything, right?

Jon Bellion 6:40 Yes. Yep. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:40 Um, is there a time looking back where that felt more or most out of alignment where you're like, "Ooh, I really veered off a little bit there-"

Jon Bellion 6:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:50 "... and I started playing the game to a level that I could feel?"

Jon Bellion 6:53 I think maybe the day, like the first day you get the first thing on YouTube, the first, "Ooh, I had 5,000 views on the last one. This one has 10." I think the second that became the feedback loop of positivity and whatever, you get yourself on a little bit of a train that's, you don't even know you're on the train until the, the shit crashes. You're like, "I didn't even..." It's like frog in the boiling water type of situation.

Chris Williamson 7:14 Yep.

Jon Bellion 7:15 I think I was always on a trajectory of it's the same thing. It's like you'd mention any artist who's like, "I had the most money and I was ready to kill myself. Look at the crazy story of artist X." And everyone's like, "Wow, what a deep s-" It's the same archetype over and over and o-... (laughs) I just happen to be blessed enough, just blessed enough to be like, "I don't know how I'm gonna walk away from this. I don't know how this is gonna work out." 'Cause I wasn't writing for other people at the time. I'm going back home and I'm gonna make music in my basement and I'm just gonna walk away.

Chris Williamson 7:47 Maybe work at McDonald's.

Jon Bellion 7:48 I told my wife that. It's crazy. (laughs) I told my wife that. I says, "Yes." And she's laughing at me. She's like, "You, you're forgetting how talented you are. You've been doing this for a long time." But I just walked away. And then by the grace of God, it was like, (laughs) it was like, pew, pew. Like hit after hit. But I think that was because I may have shedded, I may have shedded a, "What do people want and what's gonna feed the next..."

Chris Williamson 8:09 Expectation.

Jon Bellion 8:09 It was like, "My heart is vibrating with this song, and maybe that's what humans wanted and that will always cut through." So I try to just stay to that. I try to... I know that sounds super pseudo, like heavy and-

Chris Williamson 8:21 It doesn't, dude. I, I, I-

Jon Bellion 8:22 ... whatever, but-

Chris Williamson 8:23 ... I couldn't, I couldn't resonate more. Like it's... Instinct is the only thing that's ever led you right.

Jon Bellion 8:31 Ever.

Chris Williamson 8:32 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 8:32 Ever. Oh my gosh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:34 It's the only thing that's ever led you right.

Jon Bellion 8:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:36 Like with the show, um, you know, the currency that we traffic in is plays largely.

Jon Bellion 8:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:43 Right? Because, uh, have you heard me talk about hidden and observable metrics?

Jon Bellion 8:46 Yes.

Chris Williamson 8:47 Yeah. Okay. So, um, observable metric, plays. Hidden metric, uh, how much it changes a listener's life.

Jon Bellion 8:53 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 8:53 Right? There's a difference between breadth and depth.

Jon Bellion 8:55 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 8:55 Um, and unfortunately, depth is just hidden metric.

Jon Bellion 8:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:00 When I feel most connected to the work that I do is when I'm following my instincts as sort of plainly as possible.

Jon Bellion 9:09 Yes.

Chris Williamson 9:09 And I think the big hurdle for me, and the word that's coming to mind as you're talking about what you did, is bravery or courage-

Jon Bellion 9:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:17 ... that I'm prepared to back myself-

Jon Bellion 9:21 Totally.

Chris Williamson 9:21 ... to stick to my principles.

Jon Bellion 9:23 Totally.

Chris Williamson 9:25 How difficult would it have been to have done that without your wife?

Jon Bellion 9:28 I wouldn't have.

Chris Williamson 9:29 My point being, a lot of people think that they can solopreneur their way through any industry, music business, whatever.

Jon Bellion 9:36 You can. I just don't know how. Like, my wife is unbelievable. I really mean that. It's like, it's a grounded perspective. It's an anchor that I would just be, I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know who I'd be or what it would look like. She's... she like, just, she like almost knows who I am or knew who I was even when she married me. She knew the, the person that like I was going to become that I don't even know. She almost sees that in a way or, or something. Yeah. She's... and she, she even, like, I've known her, I mean, I've known her since middle school. I sat behind her in middle school. So she's, uh... What's the best way to put it? If I did wake up tomorrow and was just like, "I'm over it. I'm out," she'd be like, "Cool, what are we doing today?" She's not, it's not... She really does just wanna see me happy. So she's, she's down for the, "All right, you wanna write for six years?" Or say, "All right, you wanna spend 2 million, uh, a l- a lot of money on an album and-"

Chris Williamson 10:34 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 10:35 "... and risk it all yourself and come back after six years and rent the venues yourself and buy the merch yourself? All right. Let's see if it'll work." She's ready to go. 'Cause you know, six years ago I'm like, "I'm never being an artist again and I know my future and da, da, da, da." And then it's six years later, I was like, "I have a lot to say," and now they wanna give me my shit back. So I feel like morally it's a good time for me to actually operate 'cause I'm not a dancing monkey, I'm just making shit and getting paid properly off of it, so...

Chris Williamson 10:58 Dude, that's so cool.

Jon Bellion 10:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:00 That's so sick.

Jon Bellion 11:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:02 Uh, you mentioned that you changed a lot in the space of six years.

Jon Bellion 11:06 Oh, man. I had three kids.

Chris Williamson 11:08 That'll change you.

Jon Bellion 11:08 (laughing) Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:12 Uh, in fact, actually, before we even get onto that, I need to talk about this fake Instagram account-

Jon Bellion 11:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:16 ... thing.

Jon Bellion 11:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:17 Seems like the forum ticket sales and most of the album rollout was talked about through a blank Instagram account called user12261990.

Jon Bellion 11:28 (laughs) My birthday. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:30 What the fuck's going on?

Jon Bellion 11:31 Um, social media is too much a- is, is... The brand of my name is too much for me to care about. So it was more freeing to just shit post and just say things in real time and not curate the post and not whatever. And then for some reason, when I removed it from my name and it was just this like, doing this thing, I knew that the real fans would care. And then the harder it is for people to access the real information that's not on the main page, it would turn fans into more news herald type of people. So I just was like, "Let's do a Windows 98, like forum, let's do a fake Instagram, let's do, all do stuff that creates people to have to kind of dig, to then go tell the rest of the world who are passive fans, 'This is what it's gonna be.'" 'Cause then I hired a label for free, you know? So-... and it just took the pressure off, 'cause social media is just not for me. I haven't had social media on my phone until I got that fake Instagram. I haven't had it for six years, not a single thing. So it's like, "How am I going to get back into this?" 'Cause the second I post from my main account, it'll be 30,000 likes... And then my-

Chris Williamson 12:32 Playing the game.

Jon Bellion 12:32 ... and then my whole shit starts to take over again where I'm, like, waking up being like, "What is the thing that's gonna remain my relevancy for people to know about my album?" No, I can't do it.

Chris Williamson 12:41 Did you fear irrelevance?

Jon Bellion 12:45 Fear irrelevance. One of my deepest fears creatively is 100% my ideas not being valued to be brought to affect other people. My deepest fear is when you lose your, quote unquote, "relevancy," whether it be in production or artistry or whatever. There's a viable idea that could change the world, but the world doesn't soak it in because the perspective that you've built of yourself is not as strong as it was years ago. So there is this weird dance you have to do-

Chris Williamson 13:13 Oh, okay. So you see your relevance as a vehicle?

Jon Bellion 13:16 My relevance is only a vehicle for utility.

Chris Williamson 13:18 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 13:18 My, my r- the relevance is a vehicle to present utility to other musicians and to other things to keep the soup turning of culture for this to birth cooler shit that when I'm gone, other things will happen.

Chris Williamson 13:30 You're like a vessel.

Jon Bellion 13:31 That's it. Nothing else. It's not... It's all borrowed books in a library, and we're taking and we're reading, and we're... There's stardust coming, and it's not like, um... There's days I'm on my high horse, there's days I think I'm the worst in the world. So it's like, you know, you don't want to be, like, too over-exaggeration, but, like, it's all borrowed. It's, everything is borrowed. It's all just... It's all, um... Anything that is good in my mind comes from God, so if He shows up to do it through you, it will be good. Good in a way that will last forever because He lasts forever. So it's like, if He wants to show up, then it'll happen. That's, I'm all in that time. Now I'm on that time. He's gonna either, He's either gonna show up or He's not. And it's like, "Oh, well, then just sit in your room all day and wait for God to show up." It's like, yes, metaphorically it gets very... But I c- I can only speak from my gut, and I know right now at 34 years old with three kids and whatever, He's either gonna, He's either gonna come in the room and play or He's not. It's just, it's just, it is what it is.

Chris Williamson 14:40 There's a great quote which is, uh, "God doesn't want to do all of the work. Some of it is left up to you."

Jon Bellion 14:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:47 And I think this balance between f- faith or belief and agency...

Jon Bellion 14:54 (sighs) It's the age-old, yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Correct.

Jon Bellion 14:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:56 You know, I know that I need to make things happen, but I also need to have faith that I'm going to be pulled toward the right direction of this.

Jon Bellion 15:04 Yeah. I mean, how many times in my life creatively I thought what I was making was for this, and it ended up being something completely different that was not? You look back on it and you're like, "Oh, that ended up being unbelievable for me."

Chris Williamson 15:16 W- w- uh, do any examples come to mind?

Jon Bellion 15:18 Um... Just like right now, this is the number one record at Rhythmic Radio. I've never had a Rhythmic number one in my life, and it was a record that I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna return to just, like, really listening to something that I just listen to as a fan, and I want to put it in the car and, like, I just like it." Not like, "I need hits, I want big songs, and this is gonna affect the world." I just want to, like, get back to a place where I'm like, my taste is driving all of this and I'm in the car excited playing it back right now. Because there's waves and flows. There's different ways to attack product.

Chris Williamson 15:52 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 15:52 And, like, my gut was saying whatever. So I made the song and I was like, "Oh, this will probably be for me. No one will ever find it, dah, dah, dah." And, like, the most unexpected artist in the world was like, "I'll take it, and I'll take it to radio and it'll d-" And it ends up going number one, and it was like, "I never would have thought this artist would have took it. I never would have thought." You know? So it's like sometimes you make things, and as long as the offering is pure and it's, like, aligned with your gut, the universe will be like, "You think it's gonna be here, but I'm gonna put it over here one day." And then you look back four years later and you're just like, "I would have never predicted what that was, like ever." Like, crazy.

Chris Williamson 16:24 I love the word taste.

Jon Bellion 16:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:26 I think it's so great. I know, it's very difficult to define, and very difficult to replicate-

Jon Bellion 16:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:32 ... and very difficult to create a blueprint for.

Jon Bellion 16:34 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 16:34 And I think it's one of the reasons that people don't talk about it because-

Jon Bellion 16:38 Yes.

Chris Williamson 16:39 ... the, uh, good definition of taste, being able to distinguish between good and not good.

Jon Bellion 16:45 Yep.

Chris Williamson 16:45 Right? This is good. Why? Dunno. Is.

Jon Bellion 16:49 Yes.

Chris Williamson 16:49 This is not good. Not sure either. It just is not.

Jon Bellion 16:52 Literally. Literally.

Chris Williamson 16:53 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 16:53 That, that's a forever coagulating, uh, not problem, but a very interesting interaction with product and me. It's f- it's always like-

Chris Williamson 17:01 When you say product, what are you referring to?

Jon Bellion 17:02 Just, like, the thing you made.

Chris Williamson 17:03 Right.

Jon Bellion 17:03 The p- the product. Not, like, a sellable thing. Just, like, the finger painting, put it on the table, on the table, it's a product right there. It's a product of my effort. Um, yeah. No, it's, it's wild. There's always a forever interchanging, uh, what's good for the person, what's good for me. Some people would even say, like, the Rick Rubin approach is always just, like, it's about if I like it and nothing else matters.

Chris Williamson 17:31 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 17:31 But, like, sometimes there's thoughts that creep into my mind where it's like, "This is, like, almost a cooler melody," or, "This is, like, a really w- like, a cooler way of approaching it," in my opinion.

Chris Williamson 17:38 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 17:39 But I know bubbling it, boiling it down here to allow the person to understand the point of the pre to then be affected by the hook, it will affect more people constructing it this way.

Chris Williamson 17:51 Dude.

Jon Bellion 17:51 Scorsese, Scorsese makes this and The Avengers is here.

Chris Williamson 17:54 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 17:55 And, like, it... Some people wake up in the morning and want Avengers, and some people wake up in the morning and want Scorsese. To say that both of those things are, one is better than the other, in my older age, I think that's a young man's game. Young men want to argue about that. I realize as a, as a utility guy, I'm starting to, to disconnect from...There's a time and a place, and there's my artistry, and I will take my taste to the umph, and I will s- tell to the world, "This is what I think is the coolest shit ever."

Chris Williamson 18:25 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 18:25 Put my balls on the table and be like, "Ain't nobody fucking with this." There's time for that, and then there's other times where I'm like, it's not my... The world doesn't want this from X, and I'm working for X right now. So, I need to kinda separate myself from like even telling them. I might not even listen to this in my free time.

Chris Williamson 18:43 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 18:44 That's not my job. It's not my job. You wanna be cool and do your taste all the way and may z- that's fine. But like, I also enjoy just like sending my kids to college. And there's times when you wanna say-

Chris Williamson 18:56 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 18:56 ... if you want (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 18:57 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 18:58 If you wanna send your kids to college, sometimes you just-

Chris Williamson 19:00 You gotta pay the bills.

Jon Bellion 19:01 ... you help.

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Chris Williamson 20:04 I love this point, the idea of like artistic validity or- or artistic purity or something.

Jon Bellion 20:10 Oh my gosh.

Chris Williamson 20:10 I mean, how many people... Music is very ripe with this, but maybe even art, modern art-

Jon Bellion 20:15 Yes.

Chris Williamson 20:15 ... for instance, would be even more so, that the more obscure or inaccessible-

Jon Bellion 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:21 ... or clunky or difficult it is to get or to understand, the more sophisticated you seem. Look at how refined he is.

Jon Bellion 20:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:28 He's able to, um-

Jon Bellion 20:29 Yes.

Chris Williamson 20:29 ... consider the- the- the complexity-

Jon Bellion 20:31 Oh my gosh.

Chris Williamson 20:31 ... and the depth.

Jon Bellion 20:32 Oh my gosh.

Chris Williamson 20:33 And you're like, if it doesn't... If it's not popular, it can't have impact, like as in if nobody wants it.

Jon Bellion 20:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:42 You can think it's the coolest shit on the planet, and maybe it is, but if the world isn't ready for this-

Jon Bellion 20:47 Yes.

Chris Williamson 20:48 ... it doesn't matter.

Jon Bellion 20:49 You can... I say it all the time, I make the joke in the studio all the time, if you want to be... You- you have to be seen, so there has to be something that makes it attractive. To say that nothing I do is attractive and I don't care if anybody listens to my shit, it's like, all right, then live in your parents' basement, eat a bowl of cereal every day, and be broke as a joke until you're 50.

Chris Williamson 21:14 Enjoy making it.

Jon Bellion 21:14 And, like, okay, I guess... But I'm not saying that that v- that validates bullshit. The, I've seen the bull- I- I've- I've, uh, I've worked on the bullshit.

Chris Williamson 21:23 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 21:23 I've worked on the most poignant-

Chris Williamson 21:24 Just the gray sludge pumped out.

Jon Bellion 21:26 ... which we understand that the mom who's taking her kids to soccer on a Tuesday is gonna turn on the radio and just listen to that. There's- there's a directive there, there's a lot of money there, but if it- for me to like waste time to just be like, "I am the most pure da da da," it puts too much... It's a young man's game. It's- it's young man's game. To be- to me, thank the Lord for my album. Father Figure is- is my space to go and say, go listen to what I'm saying and put it up against ba da ba da ba, da da da da da, that's a whole different thing. But far be it from me to not, like, take a couple of days off to go work with XX to go make something huge that the world who doesn't really care about... Some people care about boxed wine, some people care about stomping on the grapes.

Chris Williamson 22:07 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 22:08 And sometimes boxed wine sells because then a 21-year-old who's going to a party just needs to grab something to 7-Eleven. And that's viable, that's real, and that's a necessity, and there's utility in that. To- for me to say that there's not utility in that is- is so like- like pew pew, like, I understand art. And it's like, what's your utility? If the utility is to serve, then you can't get your way 100% of the time, 'cause that's not serving. It's like... And in order to be fulfilled in what you do, there has to be a s- a slice of servitude. Humanity and vanity are very important. You can't just always be vanity 'cause then people will hate you, and you can't just always be humanity 'cause you'll just get used up. There has to be this clunky, disgusting, muddy, in between grayness as a human or at least as a creator to help me live with myself. I have to be okay with both sides. I have to. 'Cause the second I say, "I'm never gonna be an artist anymore," I look pretty stupid going and being an artist. So it's like, I wake up every day being like, if my gut tells me to go in that direction, hopefully it works out.

Chris Williamson 23:07 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 23:08 It's a young man's game to be so sure of myself. I was so sure of myself in my early 20s. I knew everything.

Chris Williamson 23:13 Isn't it crazy as you get more experience, your certainty decreases?

Jon Bellion 23:16 My certainty is out the window. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:20 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 23:20 The only-

Chris Williamson 23:20 I don't even know my own name anymore.

Jon Bellion 23:21 ... the only things I'm certain of are the things that I can't pin down.

Chris Williamson 23:25 Yeah, yeah.

Jon Bellion 23:26 (laughs) Like, I can't pin down, like, the direction I need to go to day by day, but my gut is- is leading me in this uncertain thing. But I'm certain that the uncertain is like the adventure. It's the thing that brings the- the spoils of- of- of war, you know?

Chris Williamson 23:41 Okay, so, uh, maybe the dynamic that's happening there, early on in your career, you have less experience, your taste is less refined-

Jon Bellion 23:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:52 ... your ability to follow your gut and your instincts aren't there-

Jon Bellion 23:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:55 ... in the same way. What that means is you need to have more of a prefabricated plan. You can't go up and just improv freestyle-

Jon Bellion 24:04 Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:04 ... rap your way through this thing-

Jon Bellion 24:06 Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:06 ... because what experience are you relying on?

Jon Bellion 24:07 Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:08 So you go in and you're a little bit more contrived, a little bit more curated, more purposeful.

Jon Bellion 24:14 Oh my gosh.

Chris Williamson 24:15 And then as you get further into your career, into your mid-30s after having a six-year hiatus-

Jon Bellion 24:20 Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:20 ... at the peak of what would have been most people's careers-

Jon Bellion 24:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:22 ... you come back and you go, "Well, I can now tap into... I, I have faith that my programming will carry me through." I told you this-

Jon Bellion 24:29 Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:29 I told you the story about last night. I played the Town Hall in Manhattan last night, and the sound cuts out for five minutes in the middle of the set. I can't keep going with what I was supposed to be talking about, so I just need to find... Um, Zach, my warmup, they came and said, "Hey, um, I know you've practiced your set 30 times. We need you to extend by 15 minutes," because they're doing bag checks at the front. He's like, "Can you just create another five songs out of nowhere for us, please, this evening?" And he fucking crushed it.

Jon Bellion 24:54 Love it.

Chris Williamson 24:55 That is... That faith that my programming will carry me forward-

Jon Bellion 24:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:00 One other example, uh, on that. I was doing a big podcast a few years ago, and I decided I wasn't gonna eat on the morning, and I was gonna train hard. And I was like, "The dopamine and the fucking adrenaline are gonna be going. I'm gonna be super dialed." And I felt amazing. And then I went hypoglycemic partway through the episode, and my brain just went (snaps fingers) completely blank.

Jon Bellion 25:21 (laughs) Oh, my gosh. You make me nervous when you say that.

Chris Williamson 25:22 I'm, like, staring, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-

Jon Bellion 25:25 (laughs)

Narrator 25:25 Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.

Jon Bellion 25:26 ... trolling around.

Chris Williamson 25:26 Like, watching s- watching someone talk at me-

Jon Bellion 25:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:28 ... and immediately, my mind goes, "You're messing up. You were never supposed to be here. You're not supposed to be here."

Jon Bellion 25:33 Yep.

Chris Williamson 25:33 "Everyone's laughing at you. This was your shot."

Jon Bellion 25:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:34 "You're going to blow it. You're d- d- d- d- d-..." Like, and he's talking at me, chatting away, and when I watched the episode back, I'm having a fully cogent conversation about the power of Jake Paul's right hand.

Jon Bellion 25:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:47 I'm like, "Yeah. Well, the interesting thing is Jake Paul's knocked out every opponent that he's faced," and I'm like, "Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, you were never supposed to be here. You're not supposed to be here."

Jon Bellion 25:54 Yep.

Chris Williamson 25:54 Like, and I'm like, "Oh, that's programming."

Jon Bellion 25:56 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:56 That's, like, 1,000 hours plus, 2,000 hours of conversations over the last eight years just, like-

Jon Bellion 26:02 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 26:02 ... (groans) pulling you through.

Jon Bellion 26:04 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 26:04 So, that's why you're allowed to use experience and taste and instinct deeper into your career.

Jon Bellion 26:08 Deeper.

Chris Williamson 26:08 And you can't use it at the start.

Jon Bellion 26:09 Yes. Yes. I say it all the time. It's like, Rihanna had to make Shut Up & Drive to get to, like, (sighs) sh- uh, Stay. Like, Bruno had to make the Lazy Song to get to, like, Uptown Funk. It's almost like you have to... And you also have to be okay with the growth of what it is. Like, y- you gotta just, like, create, put it out, and then there's nothing you could do about your growth. If you wanna get to somewhere, you're gonna have to start somewhere.

Chris Williamson 26:32 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 26:32 So, it's gonna be messy. It's gonna be sloppy, and it's not... Like you said, it's gonna be contrived, and it's gonna be whatever. Like, if you listen to even, like, any song, uh, like, Don't Shoot the Boy Down on my album now or six years ago, what someone's favorite song might have been, it's two totally different worlds, totally different worlds. So, it's like, like even like you said, the autopilot thing or just, like, your programming of what... We p- we only rehearsed for four days for Fort Sills because-

Chris Williamson 26:55 You're kidding.

Jon Bellion 26:55 ... I used to rehearse for months.

Chris Williamson 26:57 But there was-

Jon Bellion 26:57 W- we did a middle section-

Chris Williamson 26:58 ... a million people on stage. Y- you improvved the whole thing.

Jon Bellion 27:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:01 You're conducting everything. That... Ar- all right, look, I- I-

Jon Bellion 27:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:05 ... get that you've got lots of experience. Four days feels like a high-wire act, okay? Fucking looking at your manager through the window, and he's like, "Fucking dead," and he's like... (laughs)

Jon Bellion 27:12 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. S- no, it was-

Chris Williamson 27:15 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 27:17 ... it was four- it was four days of, um-

Chris Williamson 27:19 Hmm.

Jon Bellion 27:20 ... of really intense rehearsal. I mean, they were like in the 10-hour range, but, but you're right, though. It's like you understand w- th- this'll probably hit. This'll work. I can pack that in. I'll remember to bring that part out. And I wasn't remembering a single lyric the first two days. But if that would have been six years ago, I would've been like, "Book another month."

Chris Williamson 27:38 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 27:38 "And we're gonna get in another 12 hours a day, and I can never forget while I'm rehearsing a lyric." I was like, "You know, it's gonna kick in when the adrenaline's there, da, da, da." And it did. Didn't need the, the, the lyrics on the sheet and shit. I was just like, "All right, it worked."

Chris Williamson 27:49 That's fun.

Jon Bellion 27:49 And then another thing hit me, too, is that I don't really... I, I don't really need to keep touring. So, if this fails and crashes miserably, like, this is the one show I was gonna do anyway, so I'll freestyle the whole middle of the show. We'll pick five songs. I'll, like, build the shit in front of everybody, because that's kind of what I do in the studio, and if it fails miserably, it's not like it's like, "I'm not gonna pay the barrels t- to like finish my tour." It's, it's just like, "That didn't work," but it felt like it worked.

Chris Williamson 28:14 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 28:14 So, when I walked up there I was just-

Chris Williamson 28:15 "I fucked up that." Yeah.

Jon Bellion 28:16 (laughs) So, when I w- so when we ended up freestyling it, it was programming. It was for sure like... I also have a bit of just, like, "I don't really have much to lose." This get all-

Chris Williamson 28:26 That's real power.

Jon Bellion 28:26 I've walked away from it, I've walked away from it for so long and accepted it and, like, put it in a coffin and sent it down the river and, like, watched it go away only for, like, God to, like, lift it up and present it at my front door when I woke up one morning. But, like, it was so gone that now I'm kind of like, "I could do that." Hm. So, it is actually, which brings me to, like, um, I very, very vulnerably speaking, it's just like this stuff is very, uh... (laughs) This is a point that I just kept thinking about days before speaking to you is that I can't express what it's like to, t- to be like... It's, it's hard for me to put a, a thought process on, like, if you really love your life, then just, like, love your life. You don't need to inform people and let people know how m- great your life is.

Chris Williamson 29:15 Hm.

Jon Bellion 29:15 So, going on a podcast talking about how much I don't care seems counterintuitive, which then makes me not want to even just like leave my house and come and talk to you about it, because I don't know how to express the like... I'm on a podcast with one of the greatest podcasters in the world, and this is like one of the biggest platforms, and I'm talking about how much-

Chris Williamson 29:34 I don't give a fuck.

Jon Bellion 29:35 I don't give a fuck. But there is a piece of me that I do in my deepest morals find important, and I should shoot those out into the world, but it's also a larger risk that I don't really care to take. Like, like, if I really... If we talked about how me and y- how you speak with your best friend after a couple of drinks like back home or whatever, which is e- which is like everybody else, the people you trust the most, you get down to what you really believe. So, there's a piece of me that doesn't want to just give fluff, but I also don't want to... Like, I ain't... Like, I, I don't... I'm not... I don't wanna be like this, like, "If you wanna, like, fight the music industry, da, da, da, da," I... But I have a bunch of knowledge that I think can help a lot of people. So, I'm constantly struggling. Like, I should say something and go on a podcast and have a conversation about balance while playing the game that's like in the machine that's plastic.

Chris Williamson 30:23 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 30:24 I don't even know how that popped out of my cerebral while we were talking. I don't even know if that made sense.

Chris Williamson 30:27 Why did you-

Jon Bellion 30:27 But-

Chris Williamson 30:27 Why did you decide to come on?

Jon Bellion 30:32 (laughs) I forgot, I said yes a really long time ago.

Chris Williamson 30:35 Let's go, baby.

Jon Bellion 30:36 And, and, (laughs) and then Lewis, and then Lewis my, my day-to-day was like, "They flew out, dude. You're doing that tomorrow."

Chris Williamson 30:41 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 30:42 I was like, I was like, "I'm in." (laughs) And, uh, all jokes aside, I find you, your cause to be very, uh, I, I, I find it at base root to be noble. It's not salacious. It's not something that is, like, entertainment. It's, uh, it's a meal. And I can get down with that. Like, on a moral deeper level, I can have a conversation with somebody that I've learned a lot from, and the guests that you've had on. Like, it's helped my individual life, my silent life at home with my family. So it's like, I'll, I'm down.

Chris Williamson 31:13 Well, I appreciate that.

Jon Bellion 31:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:14 Thank you. I also appreciate your, uh, booking agent-

Jon Bellion 31:17 (laughs) Yes.

Chris Williamson 31:17 ... or whoever just sliding it into the calendar and being like, "Fuck, it's a Friday. What am I, what am I doing today?" Um.

Jon Bellion 31:24 And, and, and then honestly, truthfully, I'm a really, I'm a really big fan of you as what you've decided to put out into the world. I respect that-

Chris Williamson 31:32 Thank you.

Jon Bellion 31:33 ... deeply, on a really deep level, so.

Chris Williamson 31:34 Thank you.

Jon Bellion 31:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:36 That means a lot. I, um, taste is, uh-

Jon Bellion 31:42 Mm.

Chris Williamson 31:42 ... absent even more in my industry than in yours.

Jon Bellion 31:45 Mm.

Chris Williamson 31:45 And, uh, I'm, I'm trying my best to, like, hold onto that wherever I can and, and, and to refine that. Two things.

Jon Bellion 31:50 What do you, what, what's the temptation for, like, a guy at your level-

Chris Williamson 31:54 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 31:54 ... top level of, of conversation, having podcasting content. Like, what is the daily temptation of the, like, "I know I could blow the door open on da-da-da-da-da"?

Chris Williamson 32:02 Oh, dude.

Jon Bellion 32:02 Like, what is your, like, content, uh, st-

Chris Williamson 32:05 Well, first one would be, um, most, almost all platforms, big, big, big platforms with, like, hardcore tribal audiences are built together over the mutual hatred of an out group, not the mutual love of an in group.

Jon Bellion 32:17 Wow.

Chris Williamson 32:18 This is how all cults, how all movements are built, right? By identifying the other, the, the, uh, if you look at the way that, uh, American elections have been won, the last election where the party that was voted in was voted for love of party, not hatred of the other was 2012. Since then, most people have protest voted against, "I am not that," not, "I am this."

Jon Bellion 32:40 Wow.

Chris Williamson 32:41 And that's how it... So a great, a great, um, way to judge whether or not the content creator that you listen to is, uh, playing the game correctly or playing the game in a, an honest way, is the audience bound together over the mutual belief of something as opposed to the mutual disbelief of something else.

Jon Bellion 33:00 Wow.

Chris Williamson 33:01 Uh, and I've never played that game. I don't start beef with people online. Uh, even if I get, like, poked at, uh, a little bit here and there. Um, I genuinely try and platform people who I can go from fucking John Belly and Matthew McConaughey to, like, some 22-year-old YouTuber from London who I found a one video essay of, and I fucking love.

Jon Bellion 33:24 Yep.

Chris Williamson 33:24 And I'm like, "You're coming to Austin, and I'm gonna speak to you on the podcast."

Jon Bellion 33:27 Wow.

Chris Williamson 33:27 "And I'm just gonna give you a shot."

Jon Bellion 33:29 Yep.

Chris Williamson 33:29 Um, like, who the fuck am I to say, "I'm gonna give you a shot"? But the entire industry is you holding onto the coattails of people bigger than you. And then, you know, three and a bit years ago, Rogan puts me on when, uh, just a DM, I've got 250,000 subs, it's nothing. And he brings me on and gives me a shot, and it went really well, and that was great.

Jon Bellion 33:48 Wow.

Chris Williamson 33:49 And being the, like, the opportunity to go from you, like, lying in the hammock everybody else has created for you to turning the hammock into a trampoline that other people can bounce off-

Jon Bellion 34:00 Yes.

Chris Williamson 34:01 ... is really fucking cool. Two other things I don't wanna forget that came to mind while you were talking. The first one was, you said that you stepped away for six years. Have you ever heard McConaughey talk about when he stopped doing rom-coms?

Jon Bellion 34:12 Mm-mm.

Chris Williamson 34:12 Bro, so he's like the rom-com king. And what I didn't realize was rom-coms were super easy to make, super cheap, would generate at the box office, get replayed at Valentine's Day, replayed at Christmas.

Jon Bellion 34:25 Mm.

Chris Williamson 34:25 Like, it's just, it was a cash cow.

Jon Bellion 34:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:27 And he was the rom-com king, but he realized that it was a little gray sludgy. He was becoming formulaic. He was churning these things out, and he didn't want to do it, so he stepped away.

Jon Bellion 34:37 Relatable. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:38 And he stepped away I think for 18 months or two years at like the peak of his career. Real similar to, to-

Jon Bellion 34:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:43 ... your, your story. And they came, and they offered him five million for the next role, and he said no. Then they said seven, and he said no. Then they said ten, and he said no. Then they said 14, and he said no. And they were like, "Well, what's he got going on? In order to say no to $14 million for this role, which is, you know, easy in, easy out-"

Jon Bellion 35:01 Yep.

Chris Williamson 35:01 "... whatever, however many weeks of work, this is, he's got something really serious that's happening." And that was the moment that his whole c-

Jon Bellion 35:08 The catalyst that got him-

Chris Williamson 35:09 Exactly.

Jon Bellion 35:10 See, it's funny 'cause I, at my age, I don't view him as the rom-com guy.

Chris Williamson 35:13 Why not now?

Jon Bellion 35:14 I view him as, like-

Chris Williamson 35:14 Not now, but the only reason he was able to get there was 'cause he dispensed with that outfit, right?

Jon Bellion 35:19 That's amazing.

Chris Williamson 35:20 Second thing.

Jon Bellion 35:21 It's amazing.

Chris Williamson 35:21 You know those, um, balance board things? It's like a skateboard deck on a little sort of cylinder.

Jon Bellion 35:27 Yes. Yep.

Chris Williamson 35:28 Um, I always think about this. So you were talking about the fact that you have to play the game, but know that it's not about the game.

Jon Bellion 35:35 Yes.

Chris Williamson 35:35 And sometimes you are playing it more, and other times you are playing it less.

Jon Bellion 35:38 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 35:39 When you think about standing on one of those balance boards, at no point are you actually in balance. You're always making these-

Jon Bellion 35:46 Always, yes.

Chris Williamson 35:46 ... little micro adjustments.

Jon Bellion 35:47 Yes, yes. Forever coagulating, yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 35:48 And then every so often, you go, "Whoa!"

Jon Bellion 35:50 Yep.

Chris Williamson 35:51 "Holy fuck. Like, we really-"

Jon Bellion 35:52 Yes.

Chris Williamson 35:52 "... like, nearly kissed the ground there on that one."

Jon Bellion 35:54 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 35:54 And then, "Whoa!"

Jon Bellion 35:55 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:56 Got the other way.

Jon Bellion 35:56 Totally, totally.

Chris Williamson 35:57 And I love that idea, and I think that that... What people want is to think, "If I can get myself to the perfect level of equilibrium, I'll never have to readjust again."

Jon Bellion 36:08 It just doesn't exist.

Chris Williamson 36:09 Readjusting is the game.

Jon Bellion 36:10 That is it. Then you start to realize that e- leaning left or right is not even the thing. It's like you could just do your best to do ab workouts to stay on.

Chris Williamson 36:19 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 36:20 It's like, it's like, you, I know this thing is gonna go left and right, and I have to be prepared for it to go left and right. So I gotta make sure my core is, like, very, very solid. And then, and then your whole entire holistic perspective changes to make sure your core is right to do the balance 'cause the balance is all that's happening, like you said. You're never gonna hit the perfect thing where you go-

Chris Williamson 36:36 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 36:36 "I'm perfectly balanced for the rest of my..." No.

Chris Williamson 36:38 And I'm done now. No problems for the rest of life.

Jon Bellion 36:39 No. Then your, your mind starts to think. You're like, "Oh, it's not perfect artistry. It's not total commercialism."... it's the reflection of this balance thing that is not black, it's not white. It's, it's just a lot of nuance. It's ... Some things, there's no nuance at all, but I'm blown away in my older age how deeply nuanced it all is, every bit of it. It's tough to even have, it's, it's tough to even, like, confidently move forward. The only thing I'm confident in is, is the music, because I like it, my own music. Everything else is very, very tough for me. Even people say, like, "What do you, what advice do you have for writers?" I'm like, "God, I don't even know what I did." I, I really don't. Like, I had a, I had a weird, unwavering belief in myself, that's super important, but, like, I know there's people out there that are wickedly talented that just, it just, the chips just don't fall. I don't know how to, like, combat that.

Chris Williamson 37:32 Mm.

Jon Bellion 37:33 I don't. It's, it's, it's, it's very interesting.

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Chris Williamson 38:49 I've heard you say the most talented people in the world sometimes don't make the best shit to listen to.

Jon Bellion 38:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:55 Why?

Jon Bellion 38:55 For sure.

Chris Williamson 38:56 What gets in the way? You would assume-

Jon Bellion 38:58 So funny the way my mind works. I'm like, I'm already editing that. Like, I'm like, uh, well ...

Chris Williamson 39:02 Well, what would you say?

Jon Bellion 39:02 In my opin- ... Yeah, it's like ... I think I've been blessed with an understanding that when I'm listening to something, I think in my head, "Humans will feel good because of this. People will enjoy this thing that hits this thing, and this will work, and this will be pleasing to people." It's a, it's, it's a thing when I'm creating. I want this to feel pleasing to you. I want you to be affected by this. I want you to be, have goosebumps and to be affected, not just look at how, uh, talented I am. I know motherfuckers who could sing the phone book. Doesn't mean when they play me the MP3 in the car that I'm like, "I'm gonna listen to that song again." It's like, "You're singing really great, but I just, there's nothing about it that makes me ..." And I don't know what that, that about it is, which is my obsession. I love that. I live in the about it. I'm not the greatest singer. I'm not the greatest rapper. I'm not the greatest producer. I'm not the greatest, um, piano player, chord guy, harmony guy. But I just am like, "Ooh, I think people will like that," and I can now find a way to get ... I know who to call to, to get it to the thing that I think people will like, and that's worked for me (laughs) . It's worked for me. I don't know. People might say I'm f- I'm talented, but, like, I also just really, really, really, really deeply, to the point of tears, love what I do every day. I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. Everything else is like a, a day at work. For me to go in there, s- 7:00 a.m. I come in at 11:00 a.m., leave at 7:00 a.m., I get dinner at my house, I play with my boys, I put 'em to bed and wake up and do the same thing every day. And life just gets better and better and better and better and better. 'Cause I'm doing the same thing I did when I was 15.

Chris Williamson 40:38 I'm so happy for you, man.

Jon Bellion 40:39 Thank you. (laughs) Thank you.

Chris Williamson 40:40 That's so fucking fire.

Jon Bellion 40:41 It's, and it's hard not to, um, to just say that. And I know that, that might make people reflect on their own thing and not be happy about the statement, but, why am I not touring or why am I not ... I'm not even, I, I swore I wasn't gonna get emotional, but it's like, I just love, I love my life. To, to live ... I love my life. I love it. I love it. It's, it's mind-blowing. I get in a minivan and drive home from a stadium and wake up in clean diapers the next day. I got it all. I got it all. 'Cause my life, I might not have got the diapers, might not have got the sleepless nights, I might not have got the ... It's the shit that the world tells you is not what you chase after is the shit that I almost missed. It's like, there's a renaissance coming of people and it's, uh, the renaissance is reali- realizing that the roof over your head, the plumbing job and the cutting the grass is the good shit. We've taken it to the extreme. Our society's taken it all the ... we got it all. We figured it out. We're the most connected we've ever been. We got the most money we've ever had. We've j- ... I think everyone's thought, myself included. It took me six years to be like, "I almost lost, I almost chased this thing, and then out for six years I was around a bunch of guys who had all the stuff I thought I needed." No. It's the dirt, it's the muck, it's the mistakes, it's the thing, that's, it's the good shit. But we spend so much time making sure no one ever, no one ever sees us in a light that might seem average. Being average is the greatest thing in my life. It's the greatest thing in my life. Sometimes I, I, I go to the shoe store and people know who I am, and then other times I'll go five days without anybody even knowing who the fuck I am. I take my kids to sports class and nobody bothers me. It's like celebrity, it's like (laughs) miss me with that. I've never had a conversation with a, with a, a famous motherfucker. I've never had a con- a, a long two, three, four hour conversation in the studio with a famous motherfucker that's been like, "I love it. It was the best decision I ever made in my life being famous."If God came out the sky and was like, "You can have the money like you're famous, but you don't have to be famous," I'm taking that all day long. Fame makes no sense to me, and I think the c- the general consciousness of the population is waking up to that. Like the idea of celebrities, like, everybody's like side-eyeing these guys like, "You're not perfect." 'Cause I'm not perfect. It's, it's like, what are we doing here? Like, what are we talking about? I don't know how I just went on that tangent, I apologize. I don't-

Chris Williamson 43:19 That was beautiful.

Jon Bellion 43:19 I didn't mean to... Yeah. You guys are gonna have to make me look like I'm making sense. (laughs) ............................ Yeah. Yeah. That was the main thing, guys, like even if I can get on this podcast today and just be like, like my coffee in the morning and the grass on my feet and a roof over my head making music, it's like you will never s- you'll never stop me. You'll never stop me. I love what I'm doing so much, you will never... I'll never stop. I'll be 90 years old just doing the same thing every single day 'cause it gets better and better and better. And the relationship changes with it, and-

Chris Williamson 43:53 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 43:55 And to be able to get paid like that where I don't have to... I could play one show at Forest Hills and then people show up. (laughs) It's... I think because I walked away and let go of it, when it came back, I was like, "I didn't even know I had this when I had it six years ago." And now coming back to it, it doesn't even define me, but it's just like this funny... Like I'm like the monopoly guy with a mustache. Like it's all fake money.

Chris Williamson 44:20 (laughs)

Jon Bellion 44:21 I'm rolling dice, I'm like, "If I lose money on fucking boardwalk, if this, this, this, it..."

Chris Williamson 44:24 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 44:26 Like, it's just life is good, man. Life is-

Chris Williamson 44:28 Oh, man.

Jon Bellion 44:29 Life is good.

Chris Williamson 44:30 Have you ever seen Peaky Blinders?

Jon Bellion 44:32 No.

Chris Williamson 44:32 Okay. So it's a, a show about a, a gang from Birmingham in the 1920s-ish and in it, uh, it's a group of brothers. They were in First World War, two of the brothers were in the First World War, and uh, they went to the Battle of the Somme and they were tunnel diggers. Uh, real dangerous, high, uh, like mortality rate. And Tommy and Arthur, the two older brothers, they have this line where they say, um, they basically thought that they were going to die at the Battle of the Somme, but they didn't, and they refer to it as, "Everything after that was extra."

Jon Bellion 45:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:10 And it feels to me like you died-

Jon Bellion 45:13 Oh, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 45:13 ... during that, that time.

Jon Bellion 45:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:15 And you're like, "Everything after that was extra."

Jon Bellion 45:18 Absolutely. I look at... I, I... In, in therapy, I did an exercise where I looked at me on a boat and thanked him, "Thank you for getting me this far, but I have to go on without you. You helped me survive. You, you... All your tendencies and all of your things, they helped you get to this place 'cause it was survival."

Chris Williamson 45:35 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 45:35 "But I can't keep you with me anymore, and I gotta say goodbye to you and I gotta move on." And I did it. It's just the boat went away. And once the boat went away, you start... It... You look at things in a, in a much different... It's just much different. It's just much different. It almost comes to you when you let it... Ugh, I hate being the like guru guy. You don't... I don't cha-... I just do n-... I'm just not chasing much now. I just know that if I fish and make Father Figure, some artist out there... It's gonna be a commercial for myself and some artist is gonna s- hear it and then ask me to go work with them. I just, I just know that. I know that in my two-year plan of spending all this money or whatever, it's like you... When you fish, you just, you, you fish. You can't get in the water with goggles and like start swimming after the fish. Most motherfuckers want to just like... I really... In my early 20s I was like in a Speedo with the goggles and the scuba trying to, trying to get a bass. I'm like... And then someone's on the dock like, "Young man" (laughs) "Young man, just grab the pole and just hang out." I said, "Well, I can't see the fish, and what if they don't show up?" They says, "They might not." But you... You're not gonna catch shit from forcing the universe... I don't know. I don't know. It's so counter-cultural 'cause most people will tell you-

Chris Williamson 46:44 It's not. It's not. It's not.

Jon Bellion 46:44 ... "Wake up and force the universe." It's like-

Chris Williamson 46:46 No, no, no, no. No, you're... Dude, you should not be doubting anything that you're saying. I, I-

Jon Bellion 46:50 Thank you. Coming from... Uh, you get a lot of, uh... You get so many rounded, polished perspectives of like good information, so I appreciate that. I believe it.

Chris Williamson 46:57 It's... You're, you're tapped in. There's two types of people in the world. There's people that are tapped in and people that aren't. And, um, when you think about that, you know when you're talking about it and you're saying like, "You can't stop me, you're not going to stop me, I'm just doing what I want to do," you know that feeling that you get that's like a bird cage opening in your chest?

Jon Bellion 47:13 Yes.

Chris Williamson 47:14 That.

Jon Bellion 47:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:15 Like, that's what people should be chasing.

Jon Bellion 47:17 That, that is, honest to the Lord, I think a lot of successful peoples, myself included, I swear to you that that is the superpower of w- whether it's production or podcasting or whatever, is accessing the thing. 'Cause once the thing is seen by people, they say, "That's the thing that I have hid for s-..." Like there's a freedom in the bird cage opening up, and if you can access the bird cage opening up, I just feel like g- by the grace of God, I've been able to open my bird cage on record so many times that I've learned to, uh, be okay with the fact that I'm emotional. That I'm okay with the fact that like-

Chris Williamson 47:55 Me too.

Jon Bellion 47:55 ... things can wreck my day, and seeing one thing on social media will fuck me up so bad that I have to get off of it for, for six years. I h- I'm okay with those things 'cause I just think my bird cage is, is, uh, I'm sensitive. Th- there you go. (laughs) All that, all that talking to, to say that I'm sensitive.

Chris Williamson 48:10 No,

Chris Williamson 48:11 no, dude, I, uh, I, I really, really appreciate you saying that. I think sensitivity is your strength with regards to this.

Jon Bellion 48:19 Oh my gosh.

Chris Williamson 48:19 Uh, I did... I've been wearing this... I guess the, the audience might not have noticed, but I've been wearing this little piece of red, uh, for about six weeks now and, uh, it's got the letters ILM on the back and it's got an infinity symbol on there. I went and did a retreat, um, in Sonoma County about six weeks ago, two months ago. It was 12 hours a day from 9:00 AM till 9:00 PM-

Jon Bellion 48:42 Wow.

Chris Williamson 48:42 ... uh, of very deep emotional work.

Jon Bellion 48:44 Intensive.

Chris Williamson 48:45 I- incredibly. Uh, sober, non-psychedelic stuff and, uh, the ILM on this stands for I love myself.

Jon Bellion 48:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:52 And it was the thing that you wanted to take away, uh, but in it, what you were talking about, that I need to send that version of me off to see...

Jon Bellion 49:03 Yeah. So many of the fears and doubts and patterns, the, the patterns that people have, especially the ones that you don't like, they're there to protect you. They're there to try and keep you safe. Yes. Yes, 'cause they, they- They're there to get you validation from the world and- Even my work. My work when I was 14 years old was every night I was lost in that screen, creating and living in a world that was not reality. It's, it's what, it's what helped me get, grow as a man. It's what helped me stay alive. Like, music is lit- literally something that I held onto, like a life raft. And it was so embedded in my e- But then at what point when you're a grown man you say, "Is this escapism?" Is it easier for me to be listened to in the studio all day long than go home and actually have an interactive marriage where my opinion doesn't actually end all, be all of everything? There's a, it's a very, very, very, very interesting thing. Like you said, saying goodbye to that person is saying like, "I know I was put on this planet and I've been given gifts to make music." I'm, I'm pretty sure of it at this point. But I always have to take inventory on whether it's escapism or not. Sometimes it's healthy to escape. As men, I think there is a, something very valid on a man who goes fishing on a Saturday. There's something very valid about your own time, your solace, your whatever. But you always have to take inventory on, it's like, "Dude, are you fishing on a Saturday or are you not able to stomach the idea of the normalcy of your life?" Which is always, that's another thing I have to take inventory on with my job. (laughs) Balanced being. Yeah, yeah. Totally. You're on th- you're on that balance board, dude. Totally. totally. All the time. I have to always take inventory of saying, "Let me, let me see what this feels like to me." Is this... Oh, a post just went viral about me doing something that makes me look talented. How am I... "Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey." Yeah. "Hey, hey." Calm down, bud. You get, "Hey." And it's a l- (laughs) it's a lot of that. But I've noticed that that's been the biggest blessing in my life. Some people will be like, "Just rip the door open, man." Like, "You just did 26,000 people at Forest Hills." We're going on the road. We're back, Longtoe. Yep. Whoo! Yeah. And when I drove home, my wife was being Michelle Obama all day. She was tired as shit, she was taking care of the kids all day long. There was a playground in the back, so by the time that the show was over my kid, my, my son was like, "Dad, I didn't..." My son was like... The other day he sits me down, "Can I talk to you?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I just, I didn't like your show." I was like- (laughs) By the way, the whole thing sold out, the whole thing, top to bottom. He's like, "Yeah." And he's deadpan. I'm like, "Oh, I thought he was gonna be joking." So like my ego, he's four, my ego is like, "Ugh." Like, everyone told me I killed it, that thing was sold out. I said, "Buddy, why didn't you like the show?" He goes, "You know, you sang the first song and then you just kept singing and singing and singing and I was just like, 'When's he gonna be done singing?'" He's like, "I wanted to go play with you in the playground at the, at the back of this thing." So it like puts the whole... Even that my son trusts me enough to tell me that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, thank God." Bro. Thank God the, the trip back in the minivan that, 'cause we have too many kids now. We used to have a Navigator and a Ranger Rover and now I'm, I'm ripping the Kia Carnival. Wonderful product by the way. (laughs) I'm driving home in a Kia, she forgot to get gas. I'm in the middle of bumblefuck Brooklyn trying to get gas after... I'm like, "Yo, I'm rich, I don't need this shit." I just sold out. Yeah. But then it like hi- it just was like, no, this is the, this is the good, this is the shit. It's this, I'm annoyed, I'm tired. My wife's over it. Da, da, da, da. But you would look at me at the end of that show that day- Afterparty. ... at the afterparty of everybody coming up to me, "My daughters needs this and my cousin and listened to my demo and you're the man. That was the best show I ever seen." They don't recognize that there's this other thing. I'm just like, "Thank God I didn't spend my whole life pretending that that other thing just never, never existed." Or- 'Cause I'm way more in that other thing than I am in stuff like this. This- Or not, not seeing the value in it. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. It's so scary, dude. And then you build a kingdom that's predicated on the idea that you never have sludge or you never have mundane shit. It's not- Then you're fucking toast. You're, you're trapped. It's, it's not a kingdom, it's a prison. Bruh. The amount of records I've written for people that by the end I've walked away and been like, "I'm all the way good on everything this dude has ever..." By the way, my heart breaks for them. That doesn't mean that, hey, I'm, like I said, I ain't Johnny Noble. I'm not like so much better than them. I th- I get on my knees. I get on my knees in my closet and I say, "Thank you you didn't give me everything I ever wanted." Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. If I got everything I ever wanted at, at 20, I might not be alive. (laughs) And then you, and then you bring it back tenfold for me to look at it like I'm not even, this isn't even, I'm not even in this. Tomorrow I will wake up and I will be with my children and I will be in the studio making something maybe for me or some- for somebody else doing the same shit I did every single day. It's not this... The 4th of July every day ain't the move, man. The 4th of July is great because it happens once a year. If Monday through Monday it's fireworks, alcohol and craziness... But our job, our whole society sees just very much like, if it ain't 4th of July every day, then you are not accomplishing what you are... And then the motherfucker who's gotta sit in traffic on Tuesdays is like, "My life sucks." It's like, dude, no it doesn't. No it doesn't, 'cause we're all living the same, the same fears, the same val- validation, the same way you wanna be looked at when you walk in a room and you wonder what other people think about you. We just spend a lot of time making sure that that's not obvious. But the more time you get away from the machine, you're like, I'm getting, I'm in my chubby phase, I'm a little bit of a dad. Jesus. I'm making music as a dad. Like, thank God. Dad music. (laughs) Like, because that's what the fuck I am. If I spent half my life trying to pretend like I'm not... You get a lot of these artists I work with, I'm like, "Man, you ain't... Why you wanna say that? That's not your reality." Yeah, you've got kids at home but you're still playing the bowler up front. What do the kids think? You know a lot about a man about what his kids think about him.I don't need to know what your fans think about you. I don't even, it, I don't need to know what my fans-

Chris Williamson 55:12 How present is dad and mom at home?

Jon Bellion 55:14 How you got ... Y- t- ... Never speak to, to someone who adores somebody from a distance on a, on a character judgment that you can make about them. You will know the fruit if you know the person. That's the only thing you can count on. So for like, you wanna work your whole life for a bunch of people that don't know you to think that you're a good guy? And then when you go home everyone's like, "This guy." That's what-

Chris Williamson 55:38 Yeah, you've traded-

Jon Bellion 55:38 That's what most of the album's about.

Chris Williamson 55:40 ... you've traded the validation of the people who would love you for who you are, for the validation of people who love you for what you do.

Jon Bellion 55:50 It's like, and then your identity becomes what you do, so if you can't do what you do, your whole life is just shattered.

Chris Williamson 55:55 It's taken away from you. So now you're locked into the pr- and that's how you get locked into the prison.

Jon Bellion 55:59 Bro, I've noticed that i- in l- in recently 10 years of some- some kind, it was almost like, like even when I looked at my dad. My dad's job didn't, it w- he wasn't trying to get, like, his whole community from his job, and his whole purpose from his job. It was almost like you made money to then, like, go to church, and like, have another life of ... I don't really know what I'm saying, this is probably not going anywhere, but like, what I'm trying to say is like, the job is just the job, it's, it's not the definition of what you are. And slowly but surely given our, like, whole lives being commercials, w- which is what social media is, you have to turn your job into your ... and I've like lo- like I'm just like, man, it's like, this is just something I get to do. It's not me, it's, it's a, it's a facet within the other things that feed me in my community. Spending time with my wife, going on vacations with my friends, spending time with my family, eating a good meal with somebody. This is the little things, this is-

Chris Williamson 56:57 Well, imagine if you had a, an investment portfolio-

Jon Bellion 57:00 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 57:01 ... and 95% of your investments were in a single stock.

Jon Bellion 57:05 Insane.

Chris Williamson 57:05 You would be very, very careful and very, very anxious about the progress of that stock.

Jon Bellion 57:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:10 What you have is a distributed portfolio of investments.

Jon Bellion 57:13 Oh my gosh. Hey man. And it's like, t- I even think sometimes too it's just like, there's probably ... And again, I'm just speaking from, I, I'm here, and it's like someone wants to hear me talk, I guess, so it's like, might as well throw whatever out there. It's like, I've also known to just like living under my means and not living to the thing that I am has made me an, a also wildly happy b- by- beyond most ... Once me and my wife stopped with the house additions, and the hot tub, and the pool, and the yada yada yada ...

Chris Williamson 57:39 Pivoted to the Kia.

Jon Bellion 57:41 What'd you say?

Chris Williamson 57:41 A hard pivot to the Kia.

Jon Bellion 57:42 Bro, I'm in the Kia and they got these little nature sounds that you can put on in the car and shit. I'm like, "I like this just as much as my $175,000 Tesla that I got neck pain from ripping on the highway on." I'm like, "Oh thank god I got the Kia." So then it really started opening up in my life to be like, "What if I just lived completely under my means? I'm rich forever." If I live like a motherfucker who makes the type of money that I make, I'm gonna have. To be on the wheel forever to keep that moving. But if I just make the house smaller and accomplish huge things, and just don't make a big deal out of the accomplishments and just keep it kind of low-key, and then just tuck it away somewhere that if anybody ever needs it it's there, but I'm here-

Chris Williamson 58:16 Mm.

Jon Bellion 58:16 ... on the grass, with my ass on the grass with the kids just hanging out and doing the thing, that is like bring you to tears levels of like, thank God I did not keep chasing whatever. 'Cause the money ended up coming and it ended up working out, and f- I got enough of it to go around. So I'm like ... It's so weird. It's like, it's like frog in hot water. I, I would have been the frog in hot water if I didn't find out how shitty my touring contract was, and, and-

Chris Williamson 58:39 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 58:40 ... artist contract was, for sure.

Chris Williamson 58:42 What an odd gift.

Jon Bellion 58:44 Bro, I be looking at people sometimes and I'm just like, man ... Says the guy with a bunch of money that money's not important. Say big, fuck, I know.

Chris Williamson 58:53 Unteachable lesson.

Jon Bellion 58:54 I know, I know.

Chris Williamson 58:55 Unteachable lesson.

Jon Bellion 58:55 Hey, we, we've been down that road. I understand. But it's like, I'm telling you, man. It doesn't ... Ugh. The money, it ... Me and you are still here no matter what's in your bank account and what's in my bank account, 'cause the only thing you can be is present. So if you're never present with yourself, and you're never living your life, what the f- who cares? Motherfucker out there in Thailand is on a boat happy as a motherfucker, and they're not ... The hot tub broke, and l- (laughs) it's like ...

Chris Williamson 59:31 Dude, we, we went for breakfast yesterday at Red Diner, uh, Downtown Manhattan on like 43rd Street or some bullshit. We sat in there and our server came over, a Mexican lady, and, uh, sh- I can't remember what happened. She asked some sort of question. She said, uh, "I just finished a night shift." It was 11:00 AM, and she started at midnight in her other job. And she's at the diner at 11:00 AM. And I'm sitting next to Zach, who's warming up for me on tour, and immediately we start going like, uh, ironically going, "Wah! The ambient water in the dressing room was supposed to be chilled."

Jon Bellion 1:00:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:08 "Wah! I'm not happy about the particular fruit and veg platter that we were supposed to get backstage. Wah!"

Jon Bellion 1:00:14 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:14 "The CAT5 s- cables that we were supposed to have triggered and it meant that I had to do an acoustic performance-"

Jon Bellion 1:00:19 Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:00:19 "... for five minutes on stage." I'm like-

Jon Bellion 1:00:22 Yeah. It really puts you in-

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 ... "Are you fucking high?"

Jon Bellion 1:00:24 Yeah, dude.

Chris Williamson 1:00:25 Dude, i- ... Wealth is what you have minus what you want. And by that definition some billionaires are broke.

Jon Bellion 1:00:34 Wow. Wow. Yeah. I'm taking that one, I'm s- I'm tucking that one in the back pocket.

Chris Williamson 1:00:39 It's Morgan Housel, he's fucking phenomenal.

Jon Bellion 1:00:41 I've-

Chris Williamson 1:00:41 Wealth is what you have minus what you want, and by that definition some billionaires are broke.

Jon Bellion 1:00:49 But it's crazy because the things that you need, that you find out that you need, don't bring immediate gratification. And sometimes they're not pleasurable. And sometimes you're not even happy. Which is the w-

Chris Williamson 1:01:00 The diaper changing.

Jon Bellion 1:01:01 It's the unhappiness ... Yeah, I don't know man. It's like you have kids and then you learn to die-And when you learn to die, you actually get your life in your death.

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:01:13 The giving up of oneself by saying, "My dreams, my millions, my potential, my MVP, my Olympics are dead because I brought a life into the world and I am everything in my, my body will make sure that this child is okay. And if that means me reducing myself to make this child what, to give this child even maybe what I didn't have."

Chris Williamson 1:01:33 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:01:36 When it's not about you, it's so much more enjoyable. If everything is about you constantly, and I don't want to get too deep into just, like, what I think is wrong in society. Like, I ain't Jordan Peterson, it's not, I'm not, like, educated, but there seems to, there seems to be this, it's all about you and chase what you want, and if you don't get what you want, your life is a failure. But I found so much freedom in it not, in me just not, i- we don't have to go down that road with me. I, I, I, if you want to go to your friend's house, I will... Or if you guys have to go to school today, I will wake up early despite being in the studio late and I will take you there and I'll feel like shit, but I'm going to take you to the studio. It's probably going to fuck my day up in the studio, but I'm going to make sure you get to school.

Chris Williamson 1:02:18 Hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:02:21 Kids shift your perspective on a lot and I mean, it's so deeply to the point where I say people who don't have kids, I, that's another thing. I look at my children and I say, "Thank God I had you to refine me into someone I didn't even know I was, I had the potential of being." Or getting, grabbing a level of patience or exposing how impatient I actually am. I thought I was this, like, patient, level-headed guy until I had kids.

Chris Williamson 1:02:43 Oh, yeah. Very patient when you only have to look after yourself.

Jon Bellion 1:02:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:47 Oh, yeah. Your patience is really being tested.

Jon Bellion 1:02:50 But even now, like, I, I wake up with the kids, I don't have time to work out. I, I should make time to work out so all I got to do is get up at 4:30 because so-and-so on Instagram told me... (sighs) Like, I'm almost, I almost feel myself becoming softer around the edges because my concern is the life of somebody else. So kind of me is, is to some degree, don't get me wrong, I'm in the studio seven hours a day, I live a great life and... Uh, and, you, you know what? No, I'm not going to, um, what's the word? Validate everything that I'm saying. Or, or there's a different word that my therapist tells me, like, not to use. I constantly try to, like-

Chris Williamson 1:03:23 Justify.

Jon Bellion 1:03:24 And I'm not saying I'm-

Chris Williamson 1:03:24 Hedge. Equivocate.

Jon Bellion 1:03:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Bellion 1:03:26 Um.

Chris Williamson 1:03:26 Yeah. Well, just to, on that, you have done it a few times today.

Jon Bellion 1:03:28 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:28 And I think it speaks to the fact that you don't want to come across as preachy, and-

Jon Bellion 1:03:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:34 ... the fact that you're saying, "Hey, look, I'm an idiot too." But the disclaimer, the reason the... I have compulsion to do that as well.

Jon Bellion 1:03:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:42 Part of it's a protection mechanism because you don't want to be called out by somebody for saying, "This guy doesn't know what he's talking about."

Jon Bellion 1:03:47 Talking about, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:47 "And he's still, he's still proselytizing."

Jon Bellion 1:03:49 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:03:49 That being said, not saying a thing that you believe because you're worried about the criticism of people who are going to hear it and misunderstand it-

Jon Bellion 1:04:00 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:04:02 You really should not be worried about the criticisms of people who don't understand what you're trying to do.

Jon Bellion 1:04:08 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 If people misunderstand you, that's a damn problem, not a you problem and it's, like, something to try and overcome that is really tough. That being said, in the music studio, we spent the first half of this conversation talking about taste and about how, like, I just know that it's good, but you're in an alien environment here.

Jon Bellion 1:04:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:26 And you're thinking, "Well, I, I know that this is good."

Jon Bellion 1:04:29 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 "But I'm not sure whether or not I'm allowed to think it's good."

Jon Bellion 1:04:33 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:04:33 So this is you at the beginning of the music career-

Jon Bellion 1:04:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:37 ... going like, "Well, if I can prescribe and I'll hedge and caveat and I'll litigate my way through this thing."

Jon Bellion 1:04:41 (laughs) Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:04:42 And, so, it's just a new, and if you put me in-

Jon Bellion 1:04:44 So true.

Chris Williamson 1:04:44 If you put me in the music studio, be like, " ͜f I could just, maybe we need to, can we, like, roll that off on the kick drum a little bit?"

Jon Bellion 1:04:49 I'm not saying I'm a guitar player-

Chris Williamson 1:04:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Bellion 1:04:54 ... but maybe if we try a different... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:55 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Bellion 1:04:55 That's amazing.

Chris Williamson 1:04:56 Yeah.

Jon Bellion 1:04:56 That's amazing. Yeah, it's just, it's funny. People even, there's, a usual comment my whole career has always been people thinking I'm on drugs when I'm in the studio. I'm a different person.

Chris Williamson 1:05:04 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:05:04 A different person. They're like, "He's whacked out. He's cracked out. Is he full of jamina �... ?" or whatever.

Chris Williamson 1:05:07 What's your demeanor in the studio?

Jon Bellion 1:05:10 So I'll sing something and it'll, like, be freestyled, but then I listen back to it, like, I didn't even make it. Like, this is the best part of my day. I'm having so much fun right now. I light up. It's, like, it's the thing that, like, my whole being feels like I'm supposed to be doing that. I just tell them, like, I'm a little, there's, like, a little screw loose or something. It's not necessarily that... And I think I've done it long enough now where I'm like... Max Martin, Rick Rubin, Pharrell, every time I'm, I'm around. The other day I was in the room, uh, working on BTS with, and Max Martin was in another room and it was, we were, I was in LA. I took a quick trip there, like, finishing up their album, blah, blah, blah. They asked me to come out there and work on, on stuff for them. Um, Max walks in the room, we're working on something. And I'm not, like, creatively, like... Whatever, I'm not gonna get... Nope, not gonna go there. Max Martin walks in the room and he listens to what we do. Max is pr- uh, he's 20 years older than me, you know? I'm like, "Oh, here we go." I never seen him work before, I'm, like, on the couch and I'm looking at him and he, like, he's like, "Can I give some notes?" And he's in a room full of, like, eight people. I can't explain it and producers and writers will know what I mean. This motherfucker, in 17 seconds, was like, he listened to it one time and he was like, "Oh, your intro is your pre. Just take your intro and make it your pre, 'cause that's your best part." He's like, "And then bring it back in 30 seconds later." (vocalizing) We were like, boop, boop, boop, boop. We moved it all and we all looked at it and I was like, oh man. Like, only time can make someone that fucking cold. It's the same thing with Pharrell. Pharrell be walking in the room after working on something all day. He be walking in and just be like, "No, no, no. Just ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Move this to do this here. I know that the wall looks like it's 5,000 feet tall but it's only five feet wide, just walk around it." I'm like, God almighty. There's a... Mo- motherfuckers be asking me how do I get good and I'm like, "Yo, it's just, you gotta just do it for 20 years." Because the 20-year motherfuckers are so cold. Pharrell's so, Rick Rubin's so cold. Max Martin's so cold. They're so good and then I, I thought when I got with them they'd give me the s- the keys, but then I realized they just didn't get off the treadmill for 20 years.... I'm like, "Oh, that's true mastery." Like Picasso doing, like a drawing on a napkin when he's 80 and it's just a stick figure.

Chris Williamson 1:07:21 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:07:21 After all that shit, it's like th- th- the wall was only five feet wide. I really look up to those five feet wide motherfuckers. They're, they're, it's amazing to watch. I don't know how I went on that tangent.

Chris Williamson 1:07:31 Mm-hmm.

Jon Bellion 1:07:31 I get, I get passionate about music.

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Chris Williamson 1:08:39 We spoke before about the most talented people don't necessarily cut the best songs.

Jon Bellion 1:08:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:43 How