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The Art of Living a Courageous Life - Matthew McConaughey (4K)

Go see Chris live in America - https://chriswilliamson.live Matthew McConaughey is an Academy Award-winning actor, a producer and an author. Expect to learn why Matthew says life often “rhymes”, why it’s okay if you do everything right and still not get the result you want, how Matthew views the role courage plays in his life, how to learn to deal with failure, the difference between a nice guy and a good man, the most important principle Matthew refuses to compromise on, the appropriate balance of running toward a life you want vs. away from one that you fear, how to balance self-confidence with humility, the difference between “being” and “acting”, what it means to be more impressed with the wow instead of the how, rumors on Matthew’s return to the True Detective franchise, and much more… - 0:00 What It Means When Life “Rhymes” 9:34 How Forgiving Betrayal Can Free You 20:32 Hope, Faith, and How To Become Your Own Hero 25:47 This Approach to Success is Everything 31:57 The Mindset That Will Change Your Outlook on Life 41:11 How To Find Significance in the Noise 53:30 The Power of Courage and Conviction 01:00:31 How To Find Balance Between Life and Work 01:10:31 The Difference Between a Nice Guy and a Good Man 01:17:17 Principles Matthew Refuses To Compromise On 01:29:15 Why We Need to Stop Cancelling Men 01:34:31 Why Living Better Outweighs Living Longer 01:40:55 How to Build Confidence 01:47:10 How to Stop Worrying & Trust the Process 01:52:16 On the Road with Matthew - Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D, and more from AG1 at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get $100 off the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostMatthew McConaugheyguest
Sep 29, 20251h 57mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 9:34

    What It Means When Life “Rhymes”

    1. CW

      So I mentioned to you that this is Episode 1000.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      It's been seven and a half years. Uh, we just crossed a billion views the other day as well.

    4. MM

      Congrats, man.

    5. CW

      And as a little surprise to you, we wanted to take you back to an environment that you probably know at least a little bit well.

    6. MM

      Ah, Cooper's place, Alberta, Canada, where we shot it. We planted, production planted all those cornfields too. They were as far as the eye could see. And this is the road Cooper drives up on the way out, and that's that Hans Zimmer countdown, 10, 9, 8, leaving children to follow dream, tsh, lift off.

    7. CW

      I love how quick that is, that transition from-

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... from leaving to going.

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      I think that's so cool.

    12. MM

      Yeah. I think it was, you know, Chris's version of tying the human drama of what would you do, a father leaving children to go do what they know they were meant to do-

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MM

      ... and leave this earth, and then from there on time changes and, yeah. At the end of this shoot, when it was wrapped and it was clear we had no more shots, no more scenes on this location, my family and I were in my Airstream on the set, it's where we lived, we got, uh, um, at the edge of base camp, we turned our Airstream to face out to the mountains, and right behind us is your medical and your food, whatever you need from production, but we stayed extra few days and just hiked it and stuff, and one of the things that was fun is I let my son, probably, I don't know what Levi was, seven, eight at the time. We got in my truck and I let him drive through these cornfields as fast as he wanted to.

    15. CW

      He replicated the...

    16. MM

      Just, and he was going 360 all around 'cause I checked, I was like, e- they go, "No-"

    17. CW

      Nothing to hit.

    18. MM

      "... it's for as far as you can see."

    19. CW

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    20. MM

      "It's just like the salt flats. Hit it." And then I've got some video of that and some pictures. It was top. Yeah.

    21. CW

      Unreal. Why do you say life rhymes?

    22. MM

      I think Mark Twain said that first, didn't he? A version of that? History rhymes. Um, seems for as much as we go our generation's so different than the last one, and there's never been anything like this, the ebbs and the flows, the debits and the assets, and for every new technology, an old, there's a debit in an old culture and, uh, it seems like it always is right there somewhat equalized and balanced. And then, then there's a rhyme in that, that sort of ecclesiastical, you know? There's a time for everything, and for everything you reap that what you'll sow. There's a time to kill, there's a time to live. There's a time to plant, there's a time to gather. There's a time to spread. It's very Emersonian too, you know? And, uh, for every new technology, we lose an old culture, you know, and these, these things that we think are contradictory, heaven and hell, hate and love, that we think are like this, an imbalance for the truth of them, I think is (whistles) in that third eye where they overlap, and they all do overlap. They all sort of balance themselves out, and I don't know how much new under the sun we actually are doing. I think we call it different names. I think we change the labels. I think you get some things that are extra strength and some things that are unleaded.

    23. CW

      Mm-Hmm.

    24. MM

      But I think they all pretty much balance, pretty much balance out, and there's rhyme and balance to it.

    25. CW

      What's your perspective on coincidence in life?

    26. MM

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      Serendipity?

    28. MM

      Yeah, man. Well, first time I have it is déjà vu, and you have it twice, they call it vu déjà. (laughs) Let's flip that thing around upside and backwards, both sides of the coin. Um, look, in some ways it's the beginning of an argument (clears throat) for God, a divine plan, um, fate, karma. In other ways, and I don't mean that's fun to start doing that math, to try and prove our way there, but it also feels like those are the swing backs, "Oh, I've been here before. Ah. Was here before." This life, it doesn't have the, the period at the end of it. I'm, who knows how many, you know, many lives, many masters. I don't know if that's true. It sure makes, it sure feels like it is sometimes. Um, that's a rhyme, that's a real nice, a real time when life does rhyme, and you look and you look for the math and you look for the science to add it up, and it ain't there. In that way, I do think science is l- the practical pursuit of God, of which we'll never prove, and that's the point. So there you have belief and faith for that which can't be proven. But the pursuit of that is also why I think God loves an atheist scientist, is like, "Yes. Keep it up."

    29. CW

      Mm-Hmm.

    30. MM

      Pursuit of that is why I think in my agnostic years where I said, "Self-reliance, it's on me, man. Forget fate. I'm not relying on God. I ain't praying for nothing. It's on me. Responsibility, self-reliance." I believe that when I came back to my faith, that I heard God applauding (claps hands) , "Thank you for having your hands on the wheel."

  2. 9:34 – 20:32

    How Forgiving Betrayal Can Free You

    1. CW

      yeah. How, how do you think about forgiving betrayal?

    2. MM

      I... I'm trying to think of when I've been betrayed. When it's clearly betrayal, I know is betrayal and that person can look and go, "Yeah, that's what I did." Um, I've been asked for forgiveness for that before, and I've been also seen people go, "Yeah, that's what I did." And they're not asking for forgiveness. They're going, "Yeah. That's what I did." First response is, "Well, fuck you." (laughs) The second one is, if that's on my mind, if that's keeping me up at night, that SOB or whatever that is, I gotta, I got, I gotta, I gotta flush that. I gotta wonder, why is that on my... I gotta forgive that deed, that person for that deed. And again, not necessarily trust 'em, but do my best to forgive 'em. And that can take me a, a while. And I think who it takes me the most time to, (laughs) to, to forgive the betrayal is me when and if I betray myself, forgiving myself, because you know how it is, man. We forgive too quickly. We dust resilient, we d- we hop up and dust ourself off and go, "Forgive you. Let's do it again." We do re- become repeat offenders because we didn't take the time to put ourself, or feel the guilt of the wrongdoing and pay a little penance to look at and go, "I don't wanna feel this again. I don't wanna do that action again to make myself feel this way. I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like me. I don't wanna, I don't want that person to have that sadness or anger with me again, or the world to have that sadness and anger from this deed. I don't wanna feel that again."

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MM

      And that takes some pause to then go, "Now I forgive myself. Let's carry on," and trust and be ready to do the work to say, "We're not gonna, we're not gonna just let that slide anymore."

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. MM

      "That's not just gonna be a way out. ............................"

    7. CW

      Not gonna hold myself to a higher standard.

    8. MM

      Yeah, because it didn't pay off, because the repercussions sucked.

    9. CW

      There is a unique sort of circle of hell that is reserved for when you keep on making the same mistake over and over again, that you've done it, you've had to pay the penance-

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... say that you're sorry-... and then arrive straight back at the same place.

    12. MM

      Yeah. I think there's a hell in the mirror, then I think it can become a living hell. Like I- I got that poem in there, Daymares.

    13. CW

      I love that one.

    14. MM

      I do too. You know, night- nightmares suck but at least you wake up.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MM

      And they're over. It's the ones that stick with you when you wake up and go through your day that are right there, those are the ones, that's living hell.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. MM

      I think that's what you're, what you're talking about. And you, you repeat offend enough, word gets out, (laughs) the circles gets out. You, people doubt you. O- on your approach they're like, "Yeah, but don't do this for this guy, uh." I mean, all of a sudden you're going places and you gotta look over your shoulder, you got to see who's there that I didn't pay back. Who do I owe? What bridge did I burn? What person did I betray to get where I am? That's a life, that's a living hell.

    19. CW

      Well, forget that, that, uh, in the modern world you can move from city to city, uh, at least you can, in some regard, leave your reputation behind. This was one of the issues with the West, right? This was how the snake oil salesmen were able to keep going, is they would bounce from town to town.

    20. MM

      Right.

    21. CW

      However, if you lose your reputation with yourself, if you no longer trust you-

    22. MM

      Yep.

    23. CW

      ... I don't keep my own word. I know that I'm not a trustworthy person. I keep making promises to myself and to other people and I keep on breaking them. I keep doing something that hurts other people or the same person. They don't trust me anymore, and oh, I don't trust me anymore.

    24. MM

      And you're 100% right. It all comes back to being a very personal act. And what some people would say, "Oh, that person's acting selfishly." No, they're actually being incredibly unselfish, I think 'cause they're pinning themself in a living hell-

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      ... and having to look in the mirror and going, "I don't trust you. I don't respect you." Now, how long... And I know some people that can sleep quite well with that existence. I don't know how long they can do it. Some- bound to be some comeuppance. The world's gotta-

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MM

      ... get small. They gotta get dizzy somewhere. But, you know, where does that come from? Where does that come from for an agnostic, an atheist? Where does that come from from someone in power that could easily damage somebody but chooses not to be cruel, and they could so easily? Why not? Where does that... What, what is, what's that moral compass of some sort of fairness or integrity that keeps someone having that kind of character even though they may not believe in God or religion? That's why I- I'm saying this. Is it about belief? Yeah, the book's about belief. That's what I'm peddling here. I need more of it. I personally believe in God but the whole thing's not for people that just believe in God. Be- believe in trying to pursue your better self, transcendent self, if you believe in the future, you believe in your kids, you believe in the past, something. Don't know what that is? Ask yourself what you'd die for. Start there. Everyone kind of believes in something. There's an argument that even nihilists do believe in nothing. Nothing's even something, you know. Um, I don't know how you double down on nothing, but... (laughs)

    29. CW

      Double nothing.

    30. MM

      Yeah.

  3. 20:32 – 25:47

    Hope, Faith, and How To Become Your Own Hero

    1. CW

      Let's say someone has been kicked in the nuts a good bit by life, how would you advise them to sort of become the hero of their own story again?

    2. MM

      Oof, man that's a tough one. I got a, I got a poem in here called Heaven Or Not. I'm gonna try and find it and, uh, see if this kinda half answers that, that question. And, uh, you know, I don't have that answer. A lot of times these, uh, here it is, Heaven Or Not, you know. "Tomorrow is not today's measurement when the misery is bad enough." Right? These people don't have to do the suffering, uh, consideration. It's a, it's a privilege, man. (laughs) I'm trying to put food on the table right now and pay my rent tonight. You wanna talk to me about investing in my future? Are you... And I say, and, and that's part of what faith and religion are for, to help those in misery hang on to a hope that will most likely not be served them in this life, to sell them belief and faith that they will be served in the next. And what if there is nothing there, man? What if there's nothing to hope for? What if there's no next? I don't know. But either way, in misery here or without a heaven there, not having any hope or faith in anything is a certain way to remain where you are, forever. But if you can find something that you can keep going, something that no matter how small to look forward to and continually have faith in and chase, well, then your life here's gonna be better now, heaven or not. That's a great question. You know, I sit here with a life where I have the, the luxury to project, to ask myself and ask others, "No, make a sacrifice today. Sacrifice a plastic ring today for a gold crown tomorrow. Sacrifice something today for more freedom tomorrow. Sacrifice something today for a possible healthier future for your kids." I understand that's a luxurious position. I'm not gonna apologize it. I'm in, I'm in it, but I understand to someone in misery, they're going, "Good for you, man. I'm trying to feed the family tonight. I'm not thinking past that. I can't think past that." What do you ask them to do? Okay, my indirect thing I would say and understand is, well if you don't have the hope or belief in something, you're gonna end up, you're gonna, definitely gonna remain where you are. And if you have hope and faith in something, I'm not saying it's 100% get out of jail, you're gonna absolutely get out, but you've got the best chance to.

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm. Peace is a gift of God and grace. To reach it, mean- we, we must rage.

    4. MM

      Rage.

    5. CW

      Yep.

    6. MM

      Yeah. I'm gonna close my show that I'm doing when I'm on this little b- tour with this, with that, 'cause amen, kumbaya, ummm. I get it. I don't think that's how peace is coming. Think that's a great place to hope for, but to get there or closer to there is gonna take punk rock, or rage. It's gonna take getting wild. It's not gonna be necessarily logical. It's not gonna be tame. It's not gonna be whispered, I don't think.... it's gonna take, nothing, no emotion gets more shit done than rage. For, for good or for bad.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      Seems like rage really moves the needle (laughs) , you know what I mean?

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      And I think that that emotion and that approach shouldn't be thrown out when you're talking about a pursuit of peace, or contentment.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. MM

      I think it, it takes sweat equity. It, it will take blood being drawn. I don't believe that we are as evolved enough a species to as, to just behave as we intellectually can agree we should be. I don't see it happening.

    13. CW

      Hmm.

    14. MM

      We can all agree with it in an open forum, enough of us go back on our own and

    15. NA

      (laughs)

    16. MM

      ... beg what we're doing, you know? It's a good idea, but boy when it's, we're cornered and what we got is being possibly trespassed on-

    17. CW

      Hmm.

    18. MM

      ... be very primal.

    19. CW

      Some lines need to be drawn?

    20. MM

      I, I, I believe so. I think so.

    21. CW

      I wonder whether we, uh, over-praise balance-

    22. MM

      Hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      ... when, when greatness might demand imbalance.

    24. MM

      Hmm. That's a interesting one, that's a fun one man, do we over-praise balance? Yeah, I've, I think my first reaction would be we do over-praise balance a bit. It's a great pursuit. I think a better pursuit is try and find the rhyme in the imbalance.

  4. 25:47 – 31:57

    This Approach to Success is Everything

    1. CW

      Hmm. Well, let me give you what I think is the justification for why balance gets over-praised. Most of the people who have a platform which is sufficiently big with enough credibility for others to listen en masse-

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... have been through the rage and now burst out the top to reach exit velocity.

    4. MM

      Okay.

    5. CW

      And what that means is, they're in a very different position now to what they were at the beginning.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      And the summary is, uh, model the rise, not the result.

    8. MM

      I like that.

    9. CW

      Model the rise, not the result. Because the result is where they're at now. Do not ask Warren Buffet about how long he spends reading the newspaper and pouring over old books. That guy was a hustler, he was a hustler when he was young.

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      What did you do when you were at the stage that I am at? Not what do you do now-

    12. MM

      Right.

    13. CW

      ... because I want to get to where you are. That means I don't do what you do now-

    14. MM

      Right.

    15. CW

      ... I do what you did to get there.

    16. MM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    17. CW

      Model the rise, not the result.

    18. MM

      Love that. The approach. Okay, I'm all over, I'm all for that and the way, especially the way you just explained it. N- and, and let's just talk about overall the, and I haven't thought of it when thinking about aspirations with people and things. But the result, which we know there isn't really one and we cannot imitate someone else's exact result, we're gonna have our own thing, way to get there, um, the, the approach is all. And I guess that's, that's the best our life can get is one constant approach, or, and with many different approaches. But knowing we never, there is no result.

    19. CW

      Mm.

    20. MM

      That's when I always say the, my, the metaphor life's a verb. Um, but that's, that's really fun to go, "No, no, no, don't study the result. What was the person doing when they got there?" And everybody who's achieved something great was some sort of outlaw.

    21. CW

      Yep. In balance.

    22. MM

      Some sort of hustler. Out of balance, out of whack, dark times, whoa.

    23. CW

      Airstream.

    24. MM

      Still wakes up in the middle of the night and glad they're wearing a mouth guard because they'd have chipped all their teeth through that fucking nightmare they were having about those things they did back then.

    25. CW

      Yeah.

    26. MM

      I'm one of those (laughs) .

    27. CW

      Well, another question would be, what virtue is there in balance if there was no such thing as imbalance to fight against?

    28. MM

      There you go, yeah.

    29. CW

      Oh, I just reached equanimity.

    30. MM

      Right.

  5. 31:57 – 41:11

    The Mindset That Will Change Your Outlook on Life

    1. MM

      believe it's similar to what I write about when talking about an owner's mentality versus a renter's mentality. So every, so many people have the renter's mentality, relationships, business is transactional. Yeah, well, flip it. Get it, flip it. And they never give the relationship the chance to possibly be a friendship, to possibly be a long-term relationship, to possibly be a great mate, great partner. They never give the real estate, the house a chance to actually maybe become a home. And that's, I think it's, if the word's better, that, to go in with an owner's mentality. Meaning have you ever hired someone that you were like, "Probably just need you for a few months"? You have?

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      Okay, you have. See, I, I have only hired or people that I was like, "I'm hoping this is gonna be a lifer."

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MM

      "I'm hoping you're gonna provide what I need, and then I'm gonna pro- get, you're gonna get from me what you need, that this could work out forever." Barely any of them do. Got a couple.

    6. CW

      Hmm.

    7. MM

      A few.

    8. CW

      But that's how you entered the relationship.

    9. MM

      But, uh, uh, one, I wouldn't have known, or I wouldn't have got out of them, and they wouldn't have got out of me un- if, as much, if we would've gone into it with an owner's mentality.

    10. CW

      People can tell if this is transactional or transient.

    11. MM

      Let me ask you this, though. Isn't... All right, basically, every, I know it's transactional and transformational. Those seem to be the two, it's a transaction so... Every relationship's transactional. But not only transactional. Some transactional relationships can become transformational, but I mean, we're all using each other in a way that I can get this from you, you give this to me. My wife gives this to me, I give this to her. It's a transformational relationship, and we're always transacting. So I don't have the problem with the transaction. I have the pro- I, I, I have, I have the, the holdback when it's like, oh, it's merely for transaction.

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MM

      Oh, it's merely for use and how many people don't even try to hide that? (laughs) Anymore. They're just straight up going like, "That's it. That's, that's all this is for. What are you talking about?"

    14. CW

      Yeah.

    15. MM

      I mean, I see it in, in, in, in, in, uh, Palo Alto. Man, they raise all kinds of, the startups are everywhere, and everyone invests, and you flip and it falls down, and no one, and they don't even blink.

    16. CW

      Yeah.

    17. MM

      And you work for somebody and you become their CEO and they fire you and da-da-da-da-da, and they hammer your... You see it in politics. They hammer your name and drag you through the mud. And like, "Ah, dude, that's just how it is, no problem. Hey, Bob, how you doing?" Like, "That's the guy. No, no, that's fine." It's just business. It's just politics. I'm like, "Hang on a minute." So that was that transactional that, that, that's water off the duck's back for you? And for so many it is. I'm amazed at how people do it.

    18. CW

      They're built different in the same way as doctors and nurses and firefighters.

    19. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    20. CW

      People that need to deal with trauma.

    21. MM

      Right.

    22. CW

      Uh, you are dealing with interpersonal trauma. You are, you are a, a soldier on the field of interpersonal battle if you're in politics or if you're in business.

    23. MM

      Yeah.

    24. CW

      (laughs)

    25. MM

      You also don't necessarily do what you believe.

    26. CW

      You do what's expedient or successful or efficacious.

    27. MM

      You... Efficacious? What's that mean?

    28. CW

      Uh, effective.

    29. MM

      Okay, yeah. Um, you betray a lot of people, a lot of ideals, including yourself. That doesn't sound like very much fun to me, that betrayal part. I wonder if it's inherent or if that's me reading it from the outside and saying, "No, that could be different."

    30. CW

      I wonder how much of that is people optimizing for the wrong outcome and only getting to see a very narrow aperture of other people's outcomes too. Well, this person seemed to step on some toes and, and break a couple of arms on their way up. They were okay. Everyone seems to be all right with this.

  6. 41:11 – 53:30

    How To Find Significance in the Noise

    1. CW

      "I've always relied on logic to make sense of myself and the world. I've been finding that tougher to do lately. Seems to me the facts have become unreliably overrated." How so?

    2. MM

      What is a f- a fact? Where do we go for the facts? What's the truth? What's, where do we go for that? That's probably a bigger question than what's a fact. I think a fact, I think the facts are an underdog right now, and I'm not sure where to go to find them. The math doesn't seem to be adding up. I'm not f- looking around so much, and part of the reason I wrote this for my own spiritual therapy, I was going, I found myself getting cynical, looking down my nose, not giving people the benefit of the doubt, stereotyping, objectifying full group people in groups. And then the scary part was I started to entertain the idea of, yeah, man, it may just be how it is now. And that scared me. And then I got angry at that, and I'm still in the midst of some anger with that.... which is a bit of that rage thing, which making me act upon it and go-

    3. NA

      Yeah.

    4. MM

      ... "Bullshit. Mm-mm. Not conceding." And I don't think anyone really wants to concede that that's just the way it is. And if it is the way it is and the reality is not enough to get off to, let's go to the dream. Let's flip that script. I always have gone from nonfiction to say, "Let's make that the dream." Just keep living.

    5. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MM

      Art emulates life. And that's, in the recent years, it started to pay me back less. How much of that has to do with my own eyes? Probably quite a bit. But whatever it is, still seeing it and, uh, I want to fight against it. So I flipped it and said, "Let's go to dreams. Let's go to pray- poems, prayers."

    7. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      These are pursuits of an ideal beauty. These are in between the lines. This is in between the math. This is not academic. This is not intellectual. These are ideals that we pursue, the beginner's mind that we have as a child before we know worse. And I don't want to be ignorant. I don't want to be foolish and optimistic. Let's look to those and believe that we can still make those real. Let that bring rhyme to the reason instead of looking to the reason-

    9. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      ... to find the rhyme.

    11. NA

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    12. MM

      That's it, the rhyme communicating with the reason because life around us is all like, reason, reason, reason, reason. Neck out, man.

    13. NA

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    14. MM

      So I want to pull some weeds here on this pathway. Open up that, this one lane dirt top road with potholes and it's a one way going the opposite way, which way I want it to go. It's going away from the heart.

    15. NA

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      I'm gonna clean that up a little bit and go, "Let's get you two communicating a little bit."

    17. NA

      Uh-huh.

    18. MM

      You're not gonna win every time, bud, 'cause we got, we- we- we like our reason. We want to mind ourself but we make a decision when we have any kind of certainty or we make a judgment, let's, let's have this- let's have our heart be a two factor authenticator before we make that decision.

    19. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MM

      Um, and, uh, that goes for the compassionate side. That also goes for the consequences and- and- uh, of saying the buck stops here-

    21. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      ... with ourselves and others.

    23. NA

      How would you advise perennial overthinkers to get below the neck a little bit?

    24. MM

      Perennial overthinkers?

    25. NA

      Overthinkers get below the neck.

    26. MM

      Oh. (whistles) Record themselves (laughs) all overthinking. Have a listen back. I do it. I overthink a lot. And when I've heard myself back, I'm like going, "Dude, you're kind of seeing so much significance that none of that shit's significant."

    27. NA

      Hm.

    28. MM

      You're- every detailed frame have- you're giving it a proper name. Oh, if everything's significant, there's no significance at all, man. Some shit's just like, I don't know have the capacity to deal with it or I don't really care. It's just how it is. Don't... Some of the inevitables, man, sometimes you gotta let those ride. Go, "I- I'm, I'm not gonna try that shit. That's just how it is. I'm gonna deal with that now. I'm gonna deal with what I can deal with." I- I get the mental meditations on that and I listen to myself back and I'm like going, "Whoa. You need to get some sleep."

    29. NA

      (laughs)

    30. MM

      (laughs) You need to have a drink. (laughs)

  7. 53:30 – 1:00:31

    The Power of Courage and Conviction

    1. CW

      What do you think about the role of courage in life? You know, we've talked so far about the balance of doing it-

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... and not doing it. We've talked about dreaming big and maybe dreaming even further. And then we've also had this idea of, uh, a little bit of relinquishing of control.

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      As well as we've got to apply the effort, we gotta have the vision, but we've also got to know when, when we're gonna let, let go a little bit.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      It seems to me like courage, the ability to feel our convictions and-

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... commit to them is a little bit of a common thread that sort of runs through those.

    10. MM

      Yeah. So I grew up only knowing sort of the courage of the persistent. Be resilient, endure, get up, dust yourself off, go. The problem with that, the Achilles' heel with that is if you get up and you have the courage to keep on going every time and get up and dust yourself off, you make the same mistakes each time around 'cause you never backed up to have what I've now learned and still learning is the courage to go, "No, I'm gonna let some people pass me in the race right now 'cause I'm gonna look at why I keep stepping in that damn same pothole and twisting my ankle the same spot."... why I keep failing when I try to get that next spot in this relationship, or failing in this place to get this product of my craft to the next level.

    11. CW

      Would that be, uh, the relinquishing of the rom-com era in, in a, a small part for you?

    12. MM

      A small part, yeah. Uh, yeah. That, that was one. It also has to do with when I got married. My, you know, son comes to me at four years old and says, "Why isn't Momma McConaughey?" (laughs) I remember going through my head, "You're fucking four, dude." (laughs) I sat there and I was like, "Uh-

    13. CW

      "Did your mom put you up with this?"

    14. MM

      "... that's a great question, but I mean, we're not, because we're not married. When you get married, you switch your name." Okay, and then he just sat there and listened, and all of a sudden he goes, "What, are you scared?" And I went, "You're fucking four years old, dude." (laughs) Fuckin'... And I went like, "Yeah. I guess I am." I remember going to my pastor and talking to a lot of different elder men who had had long term relationships, were married for decades and stuff. And, and, and my pastor goes, "Let me just ask you this, Mr. Risk Taker. What's the bigger risk? Carrying on, like you're going and it's going well? Or taking the deeper dive into the sacrament and covenant of marriage? It should be a covenant between you and her and God. The trilogy will go forward. That would be a whole new ad- adventure in itself. Are you, what, what's the bigger risk?" I was like, "Oh, the getting married is the bigger risk." He was like, he didn't say another word. That was part of why I made the affirmative action and was, what I was looking for as a way to play offense with that choice. I didn't wanna do it because, "Oh, this is what you're supposed to do. It's time. We've been dating for this long. We got engaged." I didn't wanna do it by the book and I was looking for the authentic reason to do it, and that did help me-

    15. CW

      Hmm.

    16. MM

      ... with that. Um, eh, the rom-com time, that was definitely me doing the work I was doing and only being able to do the work I was doing and offer the roles I was getting in the rom-coms was eating at me, 'cause I felt like I could... Life is good, man. I make good money. I feel like I can roll out of bed and do one of these tomorrow morning. Well, that's cool. Man, I'm kinda number one on the... I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm the go-to guy for this. But I wasn't... I was countered by, I had met Camila, fallen in love. She's now pregnant with our first child. So that, my life was extremely vital when I was alive. Cried harder, laughed louder-

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MM

      ... felt more joy, all those things. But my work was like, all right. And I was like, "Well, I wish my work could be as challenging or as vital as my life." And I remember looking in the mirror going, "Well, be glad right now. Appreciate that it's not the other way around. But can I have my work challenge my lifestyle in this vitality?" Yeah, if I do some dramas I wanna do. Well, those aren't coming. All right. If I can't do what I wanna do, let me quit doing what I was doing. Now, that was, I think... Yeah, it was definitely courageous. I did, I did honestly think I'd written myself a one-way ticket out of Hollywood. People close to me, basically almost everybody besides my wife, was like, "What is your major malfunction, little brother?"

    19. CW

      You've got it made?

    20. MM

      "Why, why are you throwing a jackknife in this dire- You're tripping yourself running downhill, man. You, you, you did it." Um, I had my wife and myself to remind myself for that 4:00 AM clarity that I had, in tears, when I was like, "No. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm rolling the dice. I'm sticking with it."

    21. CW

      Hmm.

    22. MM

      And yeah, man. I did think I wrote myself a ticket out of Hollywood. I did look at other vocations. Become a teacher, a wildlife guide. I ser- seriously looked at those things. Um, but over time, and it was about 20 months, it was gone long enough. I'd found anonymity enough. Was not in your living room, in a theater, in a rom-com. You didn't see me on a beach shirtless. Eh, where is he? And then I think I told you this story. Turning down the $14.5 million offer made people go, "Oh shit, what's he up to?" (laughs) You don't just, you don't just step out of Hollywood and, and are... Unless you get... You turn that down 'cause you got a plan. You got somewhere you wanted to go. And I think that made me more attractive as a new novel idea. But that was... Yeah, that risk took a... I think it's fair to say that took a fair amount of courage from me.

    23. CW

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  8. 1:00:31 – 1:10:31

    How To Find Balance Between Life and Work

    1. CW

      For a lot of people, their work feels more vital than their life.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Is that a, a shiny object mirage that they need to rid themselves of?

    4. MM

      If you can and you're willing to, yeah. Look, that's part of why I started writing-... script flipped on me five years ago. I was like, I was feeling like my work was more vital than my life. I felt like I was going through the motions more in my life, but I was really getting major life experiences in, through my work. And I had the same question. I was like, "Well, let's see where I can challenge myself more in the documentary of the one life I'm living rather than the characters I'm going to play that somebody else wrote-"

    5. CW

      Hmm.

    6. MM

      "... someone else is directing, someone else is lensing through their camera and editing. What are we doing on this one take that we've had since the day we're born and will be cut the day we die?" And so that was a challenge to myself which ... led to the, the writing which was a more direct experience. Can I put a word down without ... It's my script and without my performance on it, without music, without pictures. And, uh, so that was an inward journey that I'm, that I'm still on. And now I think I'm trying to ... I want to do both of them. I just did a couple movies. Jeez, I was reminded how much I love it.

    7. CW

      Hmm.

    8. MM

      It felt like fricking vacation, going to act again. To have a singular obsession like that was like a, it was a va- it was a vacation-

    9. CW

      Hmm.

    10. MM

      ... for me. And I did good work. I don't mean like it was laying back with a piña colada. I would getting through what I wanted done each day and collaborate with someone that I like to collaborate with in building this thing and building the character. Within the movie being done it was like, "That was so much fun." That felt like a vacation, much more so than the two months I just spent in Europe. It felt like more of a vacation than that. Which has led me to question myself, maybe I need to learn how to vacation differently or better.

    11. CW

      That's also a skill, yeah. I hear a True Detective Season 2 may be coming back.

    12. MM

      That would be season probably five. I've heard-

    13. CW

      Season two with you.

    14. MM

      Oh, s- well, Nick's got an idea, Pizzolatto, the creator. And he's brought it up to Woody and I when we've talked about it, and he says he's got a line on it. And we both said, "Awesome. Show us." Um, that's as far as it's gone. Um, I think we've talked about that. I, I, I mean I missed that. I loved that series. That was my favorite thing to watch on TV. And I happened to be in it, but I just was, I loved it. I watched it every Sunday night like everybody else.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MM

      Um, and in a series it was the first time, especially now, because things are getting abbreviated. The first acts of stories are getting abbreviated more and more I'm finding. And I don't know if this is because, oh, people's attention span are shorter. Just introduce characters and let's get on with the conflict. But act two starts on page 12. It used to start on page 37, 38. And now it starts on page 12. And I'm like, man, the actor's favorite part is act one, because that's where we're going, "Okay, maybe you've seen it before, but you hadn't seen it with me. You hadn't gone on this journey with this character. Let me introduce you before the conflict arises to this world and this character and my behavior and my relationships so you can go on a journey with us, with me, like you've never gone through this before."

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MM

      Well, those are getting reduced. The series of True Detective, eight series, eight-hour episodes. Man, I got three hours. I got, I got 190 pages of an act one. Um, that's a luxury and a beautiful thing to have. So then, okay, you don't, and it takes, took me a lot of patience, 'cause I almost made some choices. I was, I remember sitting there after a month in thinking like, "I think what I'm doing may be really boring." And I was like, "No, trust, trust when, when rust becomes crash. It's gonna flip. Trust getting there." But I was sitting there going, "Uh, uh," and I was going to Nick and Carrie on it. "Is this boring what I'm doing?" And they were like, "No, stick with it." And it's like, "Okay." I go, "You, you see stuff bubbling underneath there?" They're like, "Yeah." I was like, "Okay, 'cause I'm getting antsy," (laughs) you know.

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    20. MM

      So, if that came along, and it was the right script, be a great collaboration again.

    21. CW

      Tell you who I had on the show last week in London, Bugzy Malone. And, uh, he was telling me a few stories about what he learned working with Guy Ritchie.

    22. MM

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      What have you learned working with Guy?

    24. MM

      Guy ... is great in the moment. But you ask Guy to work on anything or talk about what we learnt from dinner tonight, and it may be 6:00. That's too far in the future. (laughs) That son of a gun. He wrote, he, he, he wrote the script, and I go in and I have the, my character has great monologues and great things to say, and it takes a lot of work to work on those things and work and understand them. And I'd show up on the day and he'd, we'd always sit down, "Now let's hear it." And he'd be over there listening, "Uh," and all of a sudden he'd be like, "Oh, God. What, what did you say? Oh, jeez. What was that line there? Oh, God, that's rubbish. Who wrote that?" You know, "Well, you did." He's like, "Oh, God, that's shit. You know what?" Ba-da-ba-ba-ba-ba, and he starts spitting out different lines. And he's rewriting on the day, like right before you're supposed to do the scene. Not the morning of and definitely not on a Sunday before the week. I'd ask him to meet me on Sunday to go over the script. He stood me up every time. Every time. But you get on set, and now he's in it, and the stuff he comes up with live, where I went from frustration to like, "Oh." Because 95% of the stuff he comes up with live is better-

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      ... than what was there. And so, I started to go, "Okay, it's a meter. It's, it's a musical meter of speech patterns that he's hearing." And pop, pop, and there's no ums in any of his stuff. It's sharp, you know. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's noun, verb, noun, verb, noun, verb, maybe an adjective, adverb in there somewhere, period. Bam. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And he hears it on the, in the moment. And again, he's funny. He'll call out something that you'll think I thought was some of the most genius stuff he wrote, and he'll be like, "Oh, God, that's shit. Who wrote that?" I'm like, "Well, you did."

    27. CW

      Yeah. (laughs)

    28. MM

      And he's like, "Well, that's rubbish. Throw it out." (laughs) And he starts afresh.

    29. CW

      He's like the, uh, he's like the freestyle rapper of the director world.

    30. MM

      Yeah. Yeah.... and I, I, I loved, after I got past the frustration. I, I mean, I enjoyed him and working with... Enjoyed him before I enjoyed working with him. And then I understood the way he worked and continued to enjoy him and enjoyed working with him.

  9. 1:10:31 – 1:17:17

    The Difference Between a Nice Guy and a Good Man

    1. MM

    2. CW

      What's the difference between a nice guy and a good man?

    3. MM

      Yeah. Um, you know, write about that in there, but a nice guy has, is about s- ... A nice guy gets along. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I'll do that. They don't necessarily have discernment or judgment, not sure what they stand for or stand against. It's like, "Yes, yes, yes, sure. Yeah. Hey." A good man has ideals that they stand for and they'll stand against. And when they're tested, a good man is not a nice guy. Um, that's in the chapter, Manning Up. You know, that's, I was, that time when I was doing the rom-coms and that's all I could do, I was feeling like my work was just me as a nice guy. And in life, I was not just a nice guy. Like I said, Camila was pregnant. I got a child coming. I was, I was feral with masculinity. And at my work maybe I was feeling a bit neutered.

    4. CW

      Mm.

    5. MM

      And I was like, "Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a good guy and a good man in life, but I'm just a nice guy at work." Can I be a, roles that can be a, a good man?

    6. CW

      Mm.

    7. MM

      And that was dramas. 'Cause in dramas you can stand for or stand against something. Your ceiling for pleasure and your basement for pain are r- up to you. How do you feel about it? And no director can go, "That's too much," or, "That's not enough. You got too angry there. Oh, you meant that too much." Those, that, that doesn't come in a drama. Those come in a rom-com, right? 'Cause the emotions and how you feel are compressed to be in a buoyant level in a threshold that's up bouncing from cloud to cloud only. Dramas are as much pain, as much evil, as you want to go, as deep, dark you want to go, get there. Let's see how far you can go.

    8. CW

      Mm.

    9. MM

      How high you want to fly. How close to that sun you get before you, before you get burned. Go. Let's see how far you go. That's what you get in a drama. Much more like real life. Um, and so, you know, good guys, being a good, good, being a good man is a lot harder for good reason. Not gonna be most popular. Not gonna be always most affable. Um, it also doesn't mean you gotta be a dick or an asshole. It just means there's times you've got to go, "I believe in this is this for m- this is for me, and that is not for me. And because that is not for me, if you do trespass-"

    10. CW

      Mm.

    11. MM

      "... into my space, b- upon me and my family, there will be... I will do my best to cause consequences. And I'm gonna let you know that. I want that... I hope that's apparent because I'm not gonna intrude on you, but if you trespass that, I mean, I'm..."... I'm gonna stand up for it. And that, if we can talk our way out of that, great. And, uh, it doesn't always work that way, you know. A good man's not looking for trouble, you know. Um, but if it comes and if he or something he cares about most were susceptible to being trussed on by, trespassed on by trouble, a good man does what he can do to stop that.

    12. CW

      So Aaron, Bugsy, um, tells this story. He famously had his house, uh, a robbery attempt occurred on his very nice house in Manchester. Manchester's got some spicy individuals in it from the gang culture. And there is a CCTV video of him. Now, by this point, this is I think '21 or '22. So he's been in the first movie. He has had multiple huge albums, world tour, rapping, done all the things, most played Fire in the Booth freestyle in history, all of this stuff, right? Uh, so you might think even though he came from below the streets, sort of he came from the sewers, uh, as a kid, he has a public image to keep up. Maybe he's got soft.

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      The sort of velvet prison-

    15. MM

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    16. CW

      ... silk pajamas problem. And he told me this story and, uh, his girlfriend rings. She's in the house. These men are trying to break in. There's a barricade, so he's driving back with his sister in the car. He's driving back and there's a guy by the side of the road and you can see he's got a brick in his hand. So, uh, Aaron stops the car, opens the door, and immediately says, "Mate, is that you? Blue shirt. That's such a nice blue shirt." And as he's moving toward him, he puts his hands in the air like this. He's moving toward him, he's moving toward him, he's moving toward. Hits this guy, brick drops, finishes him off. Gets back in the car. And this bit's captured on CCTV, and somebody overlaid it with the call to the police. So there's a 999 call going on-

    17. MM

      Yay.

    18. CW

      ... from I think his mum who's in the house. These men are trying to break in. And you see (laughs) him pull up in this Mercedes, this guy, been in movies, done all the rest of it. And it's a van of dudes. It's a van of men.

    19. MM

      Trying to break in.

    20. CW

      Yes. Yeah, yeah, trying to rob his house. And see he's rich, he's got something that we want. He's already dealt with one of them. Think he might, might've dealt with another one of them as well. And (laughs) he pulls in in this fancy Mercedes. You see this guy who has got kind of world at his feet, opens the door to his Mercedes, pulls his shirt off, and just sprints at this van. And he... It was fucking electric.

    21. MM

      Bravo.

    22. CW

      When he told me this story, it was so electric.

    23. MM

      And that's on CCTV?

    24. CW

      Yeah. (laughs)

    25. MM

      That's great.

    26. CW

      (laughs)

    27. MM

      There's the best video he ever made right there, huh?

    28. CW

      So hardcore. It's so hardcore. Um, but yeah, that's, you know, good man-

    29. MM

      Yeah.

    30. CW

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  10. 1:17:17 – 1:29:15

    Principles Matthew Refuses To Compromise On

    1. CW

      I, I guess, are there any principles, or have you learned when it comes to the masculinity thing, are there any principles that you refuse to compromise on?

    2. MM

      Let's define, let's, let's have fun trying to define masculinity here. I think we've rightfully so come out of the chasm that macho is masculinity. I think through certain perceived and, uh, not perceived and realistic overcompensations of say a Me Too movement that been, some men felt shamed to be masculine. Good men felt that way. I know for a fact, and again, I wanna say to all the women out there, this has nothing to do with being exclusive of the rise of, uh, the rights and power of women. But in that overcompensation, there are a lot of men that I know who are looking for that definition-

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MM

      ... that feel like-

    5. CW

      I've been told what it's not.

    6. MM

      ... and, and now I don't know what it is, and fuck-

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. MM

      ... I just opened the door for her. Shit, I'm done. Wha- Uh, uh, certain... And, and, and, and I bring that up and sometimes friends are like, "Oh, that's frivolous." Oh, no. But it's, it's part of it. It's one example of, of like, and that's not what, um, that's not what Me Too meant in the overcompensation, especially when they said, "Come one, come all," and Aziz Ansari got thrown up there with Harvey Weinstein as the same crime. You're going, "No, that's not the same. Hang on a minute."

    9. CW

      Not the same.

    10. MM

      There are a lot of men trying to understand what that is, and like anybody, they're not gonna go down. You know, if anything to be corrected, everyone overcompensates. You know what I mean? And, but that, there's men looking for a redefinition of what masculinity is, and there is a difference. There are some wonderful, beautiful differences between men and women-

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MM

      ... thankfully, biologically. Um, not always exclusive of each other, you know? Not... and- and but- y- there's nothing that I see that's... 'cause it is- is right up there at the top of what's one of the best thing for women-

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MM

      ... all over the world is more good men, and a masculine, truly masculine man is not an oppressor. A truly masculine man is not macho. He's not chauvinist, but he's damn sure masculine. Most masculine I've ever felt since after the birth of my first child. Never were my head, heart, and loins in such synchronicity, and the power that I had was, I mean, I was probably the best husband ever at that time, too.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MM

      Men wanna be, and I don't know if this is biological because

    17. NA

      (sighs)

    18. MM

      ... I don't... you know, I'm not saying women don't, but men want to and are looking for ways to be relied upon, and so we say, "Yeah, but you always wanna be the savior, and you always want the solution." Okay, cool. (laughs) There's nothing wrong with wanting to find the solution to things.

    19. CW

      Huh.

    20. MM

      Great, let's work with that. Thank you, women, for saying, "Uh, guys, we've got the solution, but just listen to me for a second, Lauren, 'cause I'm not looking for a solution. Actually, I just wanna talk this out, and I'll probably answer my own question." (laughs) You know what I mean?

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      Doesn't mean don't be the male side of you that wants to find the solution or wants to be relied upon. It's being redefined now, and, uh, there's a lot of, uh... I talked to 'em and a lot of young men and middle-aged men that are looking. You know, part of this role I got to play in this last film, The Lost Bus, it was not, you know, invisible to me that I was also representing a large group of men who were middle-aged, who woke up and looked around, and went like, "Oh, shit, this isn't where I thought I'd be. Oh, shit, I haven't built anything." Failed marriages, failed jobs. Some of 'em did it all right, too. A lot of 'em, when things got tough, they (whistles) snuck out the back door.

    23. CW

      Huh.

    24. MM

      Got the divorce, didn't go one step further, didn't show up, and that caught up with them. Uh, but that's also a large group of the demographic of men going like, "Well, what does masculinity mean? How and where can I be relied upon that gives me dignity to be relied, that gives me certificates?"

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      Call it what you want, but if you think that's true, and I do, there's nothing wrong with that. So, what is masculinity? You know? And I'm not gonna, you know... Let's get past the... Uh, what- what are some of your definitions of, or understandings of what masculinity is? If we were gonna say, "Men, here's something that you should expect of yourself and pursue as a biological male?"

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MM

      You know?

    29. CW

      It seems like a lot of the definitions converge on similar sorts of traits. Um, emotional composure tends to be one of them. Uh, competence tends to be another. Um, the ability to be decisive-

    30. MM

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:57:45

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