Modern WisdomThe Best Moments Of Modern Wisdom (2024)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,096 words- 0:00 – 1:20
Intro
- CWChris Williamson
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. 2024 is nearly over, so I decided to put together a compilation of some of my favorite moments from the show over the last year. It was going to be a top 10, uh, but I couldn't choose, so it's 11, 11 favorite moments. Expect to learn Andrew Huberman's best advice on how to become a morning person, why Oliver Burkeman thinks you should stop trying to control your life, the reason Eric Weinstein believes more young men are becoming right wing, Dr. Mike Israels' most important advice for choosing muscle-building exercises, Alex Hormozi's advice on why everything worth doing is hard, and much more. I appreciate all of you. This year has been insane and tough and beautiful, uh, and all of the things, and if you haven't done your end-of-year review yet, you can go to chriswillx.com/review. It's a free annual review template that helps you to reflect on lessons from last year and plan what you want to get done next year. It's the exact template that I use and I updated it. I updated it from last year to this year, so there's tons in there. Uh, it's so cool getting to revisit these old episodes. Uh, a lot of stuff that aren't just the biggest moments from the biggest episodes, but underground clips and sections, 10, 15 minutes, that, uh, maybe you missed, and perhaps there is something that you forgot that you wish that you hadn't. And anyway, I'll stop talking. We can get into it. Happy
- 1:20 – 16:25
Eric Weinstein
- CWChris Williamson
New Year. Have you seen the data showing the movement of teenage boys politically to the right? Have you been looking at this?
- EWEric Weinstein
Well, where else are they gonna go?
- CWChris Williamson
That's a good question.
- EWEric Weinstein
I mean, I- I had a teenage boy. I still have one, but he's 18 now. And I watched them be pushed farther and farther right by their schools. "You suck. All of your instincts are bad. These girls are amazing. Look at you, you're pathetic. Be less masculine and more attractive." You're just barking at them constantly. They're not moving right, they're moving out of your stupid way. You've given them what? Nothing. Nothing. One of my son's friends died recently by his own hand. And I don't know what kind of pressures he was put under, but I watched those kids go through this pressure cooker created by this crazy parasitized left-wing educational movement. Get away from our sons. Get away from our daughters. Get away from our sons and away from our daught- it's not left or right. I don't have a Republican bone in my body. Get the crazy people who do not understand human development away from our children. Stop giving our daughters terrible life advice.
- CWChris Williamson
What, like...
- EWEric Weinstein
Um... That's one of these Milgram questions, what am I supposed to say? Um, let me speak abstractly so we don't get distracted with stupid stuff. Gender is about reproduction. And it's paired and there's nothing you're gonna do that's as good as the male-female pairing that produces families. Yes, there's a ton of problems with it. There's a ton of problems with traditional femininity, with traditional masculinity. I actually believe that toxic masculinity used to mean something before it meant nothing. Right now, we are allowing our children to be parented by people who should be n- nowhere close to a child, because development for humans is different. We're not like wildebeests where you come out with programming where you can walk on day one. We're basically not blank slates, but self-assembling computers. And what you put into a developing mind, um, you know, what normal child trying to figure out gender identity, um, does not go through a process trying to figure out, "Oh, I like that dress. Do I want to marry somebody who's wearing it, or do I wanna wear it myself?" That's a normal process that you go through in development. And if a parent hears that, they usually, you know, try to guide natural gender identity. Now, what happens when an administrator says, "Oh, he said he wanted to wear a dress. He's a girl. Everybody respect his choice." You're thinking, "W- w- wait, w- what? You took a moment that happens in every boy's life, and you turned it into a trans affirmation moment, and then you tried to, like, (laughs) freeze it in and... Y- let me guess, you really just wanna protect something, which is great." Some people wanna protect trans kids. Trans kids exist. They have life very hard on them. Okay, let's ask how many trans kids got manufactured by this DEI movement, versus how many would occur naturally? And you have type one and type two error. You have a trans kid who was always going to be a trans kid that wasn't properly treated. That's terrible. I agree with the DEI people about that. You have another collection, huge collection of normal kids who are never going to be trans, and you push them towards this.
- CWChris Williamson
I had J. Michael Bailey on the show, who his paper on ROGD, rapid onset gender dysphoria-
- EWEric Weinstein
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, was pulled. Very, very rare that this happens.
- EWEric Weinstein
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and-I learned, during my research for that, about the left-handedness argument for both gay and transsexual people, so in the Middle Ages it was seen as being a mark of witchcraft or being touched by the devil that you were left-handed, which meant that people who were, hid their left-handedness.
- EWEric Weinstein
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think about 12%, maybe, of the population is left-handed, something like that. But during the Middle Ages, uh, it was significantly less. The, uh, sealing gets released and people are free to be their true left-handed selves, and more people become left-handed. I- I- I can now-
- EWEric Weinstein
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... fully manifest that forward. And that is an argument that gets put forward a lot, for, well, now that we have released the lid on the pressure cooker that was tamping down people's natural trans or gay proclivities or whatever, uh, they're now free to be themselves. But that doesn't explain why gender dysphoria appears to occur in clumps. It's not evenly distributed across all scores, it's-
- EWEric Weinstein
So you, you linked two things that I think have to be unlinked. We are fighting the last war because we got male homosexuality wrong. I'm old enough to remember when it was a lifestyle choice. Right? And, and I had gay friends in college who, "It's not a choice." (laughs) You know, it's like a quiet...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- EWEric Weinstein
"I didn't choose this."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- EWEric Weinstein
Um... we're lumping a bunch of stuff together. I don't think male homosexuality has almost anything to do with female homosexuality. I think that calling them both homosexuality is very confusing. There's something that seems much more obligate about male homosexuality. It's highly conserved. I don't think it's unnatural. I think it's, it's part of the design of humans and we haven't quite figured out why it's there.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't disagree, but I think the left-handedness argument makes sense-
- EWEric Weinstein
No-
- CWChris Williamson
... when it comes to homosexuality, but not when it comes to the trans issue.
- EWEric Weinstein
No, it makes sense in both, but the size of the effect is the problem.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yep.
- EWEric Weinstein
You're claiming... I have no doubt that there were some people who had transgendered brains who were closeted, uh, you know, transvestites and, and that had, they had a closet somewhere in the basement where they got to be their- their true selves. No question that that exists. The issue is that you created an enormous amount of, like, type II error so that you could go after a much smaller amount of type I error. You created all sorts of negative stuff by not balancing type I and type II, and that's unforgivable. You're not actually the defender you think you are. You're somebody who's destroying some lives to privilege others, and why have you made that decision? I completely agreed with you. Like, I- I won't say there are only two genders, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- EWEric Weinstein
(sighs) Because it's not true.
- CWChris Williamson
In humans?
- EWEric Weinstein
Yeah.
- 16:25 – 32:21
Alex Hormozi
- CWChris Williamson
to lose sleep. You'll doubt whether it'll work. You'll stress to make ends meet. You won't finish your to-do list. You'll wonder whether you made the right call and have no way to know for years. This is what hard feels like, and that's okay. Everything worth doing is hard, and the more worth doing it is, the harder it is. The greater the payoff, the greater the hardship. If it's hard, good. It means no one else will do it. More for you.
- AHAlex Hormozi
I think a lot of entrepreneurship and even personal growth is training yourself on how you respond to hard. Because in the early days, hard was, "Ooh, stop. This isn't good. I should- I should... This is a warning sign. This is a red flag. I should slow down, or I should sto- you know, I should pivot." But the more I think about it as a competitive landscape, as I'm clear on what this path is supposed to look like, and these rocks and these dragons are things that I'm gonna have to slay along the way to get the princess or get the treasure, I get happier about the harder it is because I know that no one else will follow.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a selection effect.
- AHAlex Hormozi
And I think if you can- if you can shift from, "This is hard," to, "No one else will be able to do this," then it- it's- it flips from being this thing that you're like, "Oh, poor me," to, "Oh, poor everyone else who's gonna have to fucking try."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- AHAlex Hormozi
And I think that is so much more motivating as a frame for the exact same circumstance.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's awesome. I was thinking a lot about the lonely chapter that we talked about the last time. That was the best, most powerful idea, I think, that we came up with. And if you see there basically being no shortcuts toward getting the thing that you want, there are ways to be more and less efficient, and there are ways to do things with more and less of a positive disposition, which can actually make the journey feel an awful lot easier.But ultimately, if you assume that largely everyone needs to go through the same challenges that you're going through, every single difficult thing that you do is kind of like a massive wall that you need to get over and you go, "Wow, fuck. I'm so glad that I've got over that wall and... uh, think about how many people are going to be selected out..." It's like the Hunger Games, you know? Think about how many other people are going to fall at that wall there.
- AHAlex Hormozi
People only root for people who don't need it. Like, the amount of times when I was on my lonely path, where I was too different from the friends that I had but not successful enough to be friends with the people that I wanted to be friends with, that's when, that's when you want people to root for you. That's when you want people to support you. Once you've already won, people are like, "He's amazing. He's so good." But like, that's the time when you need it the least. And so, you always have to be the person who roots for you before everybody else does and it's usually a single clap in the auditorium for a very long period of time. It is a slow clap that's just you rooting for you. Um, and that visual, I think, is one that you can kind of take because it is... People struggle to do things alone and the path of the exceptional person is one of an exception, which means that you are not with other people. And rather than fighting that or bemoaning it, see it as an indicator that you're on the right path because if everyone else were cheering you on, then it means you're not in the right place because it means you're just like everyone else and that's not where you wanna be.
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting paradox that the energy it requires to start doing something is way more than the energy required to continue doing the thing and that the beginning of doing anything results in the lowest amount of reward, both internal and external, than when you've been doing it for ages. So I think about this a lot with the show, that there was this stat that Spotify told us, 85% of the listeners of this show found us in 2023.
- AHAlex Hormozi
(laughs) Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I thought at the end of 2022, remembering at that point I'd been on Rogan, we were at like 650K, we've got, you know, we've been doing s-
- AHAlex Hormozi
(laughs) Amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
... 550, 600 episodes deep.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, I- I'm- I've got it. I've done the thing. Like this is, this is me doing... If this isn't fucking doing the thing, I'm moving to Austin, Texas. I've got an O-1 visa, I've got like the- all the rest of the stuff. Jordan Peterson's been on twice, you've been on. And yet, the... What? Everything up until that point is-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Two months of growth.
- CWChris Williamson
F- yeah. I mean, we made, we made more money for- just from a revenue perspective, we made more money and more subs in one month, December of last year, than we did in the entire first three and a half years of the show. So it's this odd paradox and one of the things that you need to ensure... I've had this idea about protect your passion at all costs because if you, if you begin to hate the thing that you do, you negatively change your trajectory. And that means that at the time when you can benefit the most by every single unit of work, which is the later that you go, presuming that you continue to hit that upward trajectory-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you've completely killed any passion or desire to do the work in the early stages because you've, you've not protected it appropriately, that can be by focusing on the wrong things, by not rewarding yourself, by not building it with people that care about you, by, you know, just not- s- not celebrating when you hit milestones, all of the things that actually help to keep you going-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Like being a character.
- CWChris Williamson
... by the time that you get to the stage where each unit of effort allows you to gain a thousand or a million of each of the things that it would have done at the very beginning, you've inverted the, uh, like the passion, uh, e- equation. Takes way more energy to start a thing than to continue doing a thing, and yet in the beginning the rewards are way lower than they are at the end. But if you don't protect your passion, your motivation is at its lowest when you are at your highest amount of efficiency in terms of returning your time put in.
- AHAlex Hormozi
I think a hopeful message that anyone can think about who's about- who's in that hard period or in that start period is that it won't get harder. Like, this is the hardest part. And so if you can just make it through this, everything else is downhill. It's not that the things that you're- the dragons you're gonna slay aren't gonna get bigger. They are. But you become so much more equipped to slay them back and you have so many more allies. You have people in the stands cheering for you. You have the audience. You have all of these other things that are behind you. But in the beginning, it's just you with a stick against a bear. And arguably, that fight is a harder fight to win than beating a dragon when you have a nuclear bomb and six nations behind you. And so it's not even like the, the size of the hardship, it's just also the resources and how few of them you have and how so much of the beginning is literally burning the one thing you have, which is time, because you have no leverage. You don't have the money to pay other people to help you. You don't have the resources to go like get someone to- to... The- y- no one can learn it for you. It's like there's... A lot of the things that, that we care about a lot, like no one can work out for you. Doesn't matter how much money you have. No one can learn skills for you. And so in the early days, like it feels so painful 'cause you're like you look around to see who can help you and then you're like, "Fuck, it's me again." And I think getting comfortable with the idea that each of these things, kind of like Slumdog Millionaire if you've seen that movie where he... I'll give you the TL;DR. He goes through his entire life of randomness and then he gets on the Who Wants To Be A Millionaire version in India and has 12 questions to make a million dollars. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And from only 12 random experiences in his life that seemed meaningless at the time was he able to answer all of the questions and then ultimately win.
- AHAlex Hormozi
... the skills that you develop along the way, like Steve Jobs learning calligraphy that then became Apple fonts, that, you know, transformed how we type. Those early days, that little trench winning in the weeds oftentimes gives you these huge advantages later on because you have more context than anyone else. And so rather than lament them and hate the fact that you're going through it, remembering that these will be arrows that you put in the quiver that you're gonna be using to slay the future bigger dragons. And so... Expecting it to be easy is what makes it much harder than it ever is.
- CWChris Williamson
I've always loved earning my stripes with the things that I've done, whether it was with Nightlife or running the podcast or doing whatever. And I think there's like a degree of nobility to it but functionally that's kind of, that's just like a, it's a nothing. Like what- what's the, where does the, what's the nobility? But I think the reason that you can feel noble about it and the reason that it gives you a positive reward is you know that you understand every single inch of the things and that if you want to hold a conversation... W- we went out for dinner with our new CFO and, and accounts people on Saturday and they said, "You ask a lot of questions."
- AHAlex Hormozi
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"Most people don't ask very many questions." And I also don't care at all about accounts really. Like I'm not doing this for money, but they said, "You ask a lot of questions." It's like, well, I don't ever really want to walk into a room and not be able to hold my own, at least just competently if it's to do with something that I care about. And the same thing goes for this. Like I under- I started to learn about focal lengths and frame rates and negative fill, reverse contrast lighting, and then sure enough two years after we started doing it a bunch of different... I sent you the Instagram thing, like this really awesome film Instagram that I've been following for ages picked us up for what we were doing and gave us props independent of the talky thing, which is fundamentally what we're here for, and we created this entire new industry of like cinematic podcasting which was recognized by, as far as I'm aware, like the best cinematic... it's called Film Lights, @filmlights, people can go and see it on Instagram, like the best decoder and analyzer of cinematography. And two years ago when we started I remember thinking, "Fuck, like I love the way that they've broken down what happens in Ad Astra. Oh my God, the whole thing was shot on 35 mil, each different scene's got two pairings of colors," and stuff like that. And then... But the reason that we were able to get there, at least in some part, is I can have a conversation with people. So each of the things that you do when you not only win in the weeds but live in the weeds then allows you downstream from that to see the things that other people aren't seeing.
- AHAlex Hormozi
There's a quote that I love from Dr. Cash, I'll probably butcher it, but experts have more ways to win than beginners do. And so if an expert goes into any setting that they're expert in, they have so many faster feedback loops that reward them in the moment before the ultimate outcome. So if you're a master video editor there's so many things that you can do that while editing you make one change and then it looks right, you have a positive feedback loop. And so I think when you're on the start path you can't look at the outcome as the only positive because you will never make it. And so the positive frame that I've always used is, sure you can have the external ones of like I like thinking about my first videos had like 13 views and I'm like, "Well, if I had a- an audience of 13 people," I used to spend years pitching, you know, weight loss stuff to rooms of 13 and that was fine. And so thinking about it that way was helpful but the, the most helpful frame was thinking about who I was becoming as the asset that I was building so in real time whenever I finished a long day's work I was becoming more like the type of person who could work for five years without reward, and that would be part of the story I would someday tell. And some, some of the biggest reinforcers I've had in my life has been future casting the story that I would tell about the shitty period that I was in. Like I remember when I was sleeping on the floor at my gym because I didn't have m- enough money for two rents and I was like, "I will fucking tell this story." And when I lost everything for the first time I s- like I have the screenshot of the bank app, like when I show it people are like, "Oh look, there's that thing," but they forget that there was a person who screenshotted it to be like, "This won't fucking happen again." And I think having a larger narrative of where you're ultimately going, one, gives you the vision of where your, like the... ro- like knows where he's going, but it allows the dragons that you have to slay along the way, the hard things that you have to overcome to feed into the larger narrative of who, of the story that you'll someday tell. And so like no one ever tells stories about the hero who made it all happen immediately and had no hardships. No one cares. We're like, "Okay, you were born to a billionaire. Is there a story there?" Not really but everyone loves the story because we can see ourselves in the character and how much we hope to be like them. And it's the being like them, not the having what they have that we usually like. And so reframing ourselves as the hero of that narrative in my harder times was what really got me through that and thinking "I will tell this story someday."
- CWChris Williamson
Have you heard Rogan talk about the be the hero of your own story thing?
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm-mm.
- 32:21 – 38:41
Dr Mike Israetel
- AHAlex Hormozi
- CWChris Williamson
One of the first places that people are going to go to, and I'm gonna guess one of the most common questions that you get asked, "What exercises do I need to be doing?"
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
Yeah. All of them, bro. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Right, yeah.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
That's it, and then they just walk away, and they're like, "Wow, that guy's supposed to be smart or something like that, huh?" But then they see the back of my very shiny head and it makes them happy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, okay.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
Which exercises? So, there is a lot to say about it, but you can start with the supposition that it's whatever exercise nominally targets the muscle you want to grow. So, if you want bigger biceps, you know, some variation of doing this is probably good. And then to be honest, that's maybe 80% of the answer. So, if, uh, a lot of people... Here's why I'm saying that. A lot of people will look at, let's say for quads. They'll look at hack squats, they'll look at leg presses, they'll look at lunges, and they'll look at regular high bar squats. And they'll vex themselves infinitely over the question of which one of these is superior, which is kind of like asking, you know, "I need to get to Austin, Texas in a, in, uh, in two days. Which airline should I take?" Like, you, you ask someone who works at the airport, like, "H- w- which airline's like really the one I should be taking?" And they're like, (laughs) "Well, I mean, I don't know. All of them really get you there." There are subtle differences, but at least make sure the ticket says Austin, Texas. So, if the exercise hits that muscle, then you're good to go. Now, there are ways of seeing which exercises hit the target muscle that you want. Uh, a couple of what we are p- at are being called proxies for stimulus. So, this is something like tension. The perception of a lot of tension generated or exposed in that muscle. So, if you're doing chest flies, and you feel a crap load of stretch and pulling in the chest, uh, that's probably good. If you're doing what you think is a chest fly, but you misread the machine's instruction thing, and you feel a ton of tension in your biceps or your forearms or your shoulders, but you don't really honestly feel anything in the chest, on a just pure physics perspective, because of the mechanics of the movement, your chest has to be getting some exposure. But maybe you could be doing better by actually doing the exercise in a way or picking an exercise that really you feel some tension off of. Another clue to if you're stimulating the muscle properly is the burn, and that's seen in a medical context when people don't wear proper protection. I know that resonates with you personally 'cause the conversation we had right before this.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
I don't mean to expose you, but, but Chris, you could just be making better choices is what I'm trying to say. All theoretical, I've never been with a woman, as everyone who watches our YouTube knows. But on a serious note, the burn is, in especially higher rep sets, when you start feeling the accumulation of metabolic byproducts in the target muscle, so the chest fly analogy. If you're doing high rep pec flies, and at the end of that set, your pecs are burning, hey, that's probably good. You're probably getting a good stimulus there. On the other hand, if it's just your biceps that are burning, but your pecs don't really feel much, are you getting a stimulus in that exercise? Huh, yeah, sure. Is it guaranteed to be a really robust, really good stimulus? Probably not, 'cause you should be feeling some combination of tension and burn, and then also there's pump. Again, none of these are mandatory, but together they're kind of like puzzle pieces that take what could be a C+ exercise for you and make it an A+ exercise if you're getting all the feelings right on this. So, another one is pump. Uh, how much after several sets of the workout or of the exercise, how filled with fluid is your target muscle? So, if you're doing pec flies, and after a couple of, of sets, you know, a girl walks by and you're like, "What's up?" And she's like, "Oh, my God." (laughs) And she runs away. Uh, I guess that's good even though she ran away, but she ran away in a way that she obviously respected your pec size, which is the whole point of the gym. But if you do a bunch of sets of something, um, let's say you're doing pec flies, your shoulders are pumped, your biceps are pumped, even your forearms look more veiny, but do- you can't honestly say your chest has changed in any visible or palpable way. I- no doubt, still trains your pecs, but maybe not that great. Another one is perturbation, uh, which kind of presents itself in two forms. One is, is that target muscle feeling really weak? So, let's say you do a few pec exercises and you think they're for the chest, and then you try to push yourself, uh, into your car, like push off your steering wheel, and you feel like a profound weakness in that...... pack, you're like, "Oh, my God." Um, and a really good example is if you try to walk down stairs after you hit quads.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yep.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
If you think you hit quads but you really hit glutes and adductors, you can hop-skip down the stairs, no fucking problem. Are we allowed to swear in here or is that not a good idea?
- CWChris Williamson
Of course.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
All right, sweet. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Whereas if you're doing this on the handrail.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
Yes, like desperately clinging for dear life and-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
... and- and your legs are shaky. Uh, another thing with perturbation is crampy. None of this is required, but if your chest cramps hard when you're trying to pose after a few sets of whatever you're doing, then whatever you're doing absolutely hit your chest. The other thing is weakness too. So if I tell you, "Hey, this mega pec workout, what's your best bench?" And you're like, "Well, it's like, you know, 200 pounds for a set of 10." And I take you through a mega pec workout. After that, if we put 200 pounds on there, if you bench it for anything close to 10, your pecs never got very fatigued, which almost certainly means they never got very stimulated. So you should see a pretty big repetition strength drop-off. If you can barely do a pushup after a chest workout, oh shit, something happened to your pecs, for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
Especially if you feel like your chest is the kind of onus of weakness in that movement. So those are all ways to kind of proxy that, and I would say another one, again, not a huge deal, not the deal, but a good little additive to the mix is, do you feel any kind of weakness or soreness that persists for hours or days after? So for example, if you do some kind of new, uh, quad machine at your gym, and, uh- uh, two days later, your inner thighs are sore, your glutes are physically sore, your quads aren't, uh, either the way you did it, which I'm sure we'll get to technique, or just the exercise itself, it says quads but it's really not quads. Maybe it is to some extent, but you would expect if you had a novel stimulus to feel some kind of soreness. But if you did something that says quads on it and then a day later you can barely walk and you- you're sore to the touch, then you know, you have to have stimulated your quads. There is no alternative. So all those things are in the plus side category, and any exercise that hits a bunch of those check marks for you, man, that's a good exercise for you. And we're all different, so some people respond better to a pec fly machine, some people to dumbbells, some people to cables, some people to something in between. Whatever exercise checks those boxes for you really well, uh, it's probably a good exercise for you, at least for the time being.
- 38:41 – 45:35
MrBallen
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
- CWChris Williamson
We're here in a spooky field with a- a car on fire and a full moon and a weird house over the far side.
- MIDr. Mike Israetel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got any stories that fit this environment?
- GBGwenda Blair
I do, I do. I have a really good one, uh, from, uh, out in Utah in the 1970s. We don't have the names of the people involved so I'm gonna call them a man and a woman, but you know, they... This is every bit their story, we just don't use their names. I think they actually didn't want their names used. That's what I recall. So back in the 1970s there was this- this- this young guy and young girl, they were the main characters of the story, and they, I think they met in college, and they go out on this first date. Uh, they go to a restaurant, a diner, and they got along fine but there wasn't any magic. It was, you know, kind of a nothing date that they both kind of instinctively knew that this was likely not gonna go anywhere beyond this first date. There's no chemistry. However, they both kind of intuitively noticed it and the- the guy towards the end of the date when it's kind of like, "Okay, time to wrap things up now," he decided to take a chance. He figured, "What's- what's- what's the worst that can happen? I already can tell this isn't going anywhere." And he says to the- to his date, and he says, you know, "Do you wanna do something kinda unexpected? Do you wanna, like, go do something kinda crazy with me right now?" And the girl was actually, like, kinda taken aback. She's like, "Okay, what- what- what? What do you wanna do?" And he's like, "Well, I- I oftentimes go for walks out in Provo Canyon, this beautiful canyon that's not near, it's nearby, it's got this amazing trail, it brings you out to this overlook with this incredible view of the stars. Like, it's a really cool spot and I go there, you know, later in the day and no one's there and it's- it's pretty cool. But it's, you know, we're- we're hiking in the woods in the middle of the night, you know what I mean?" And she's like, "Okay, let's do it." You know? It's like suddenly the date went from going nowhere to it's kind of exciting. And so now there's- there's chemistry, it's like they're going into the unknown together. And so they- they quickly leave the diner, they hop in his car and it's a short drive over to the parking lot where Provo Canyon is. You know, he pulls into the spot, there's nobody there, they get out, and- and now there really is. They're- they're getting along, they're kind of laughing, telling jokes, they're holding hands, and they walk right from the parking lot onto this paved trail that goes right into the forest. And so it's- it's nighttime, you know, just a very, it's a, this is a- this is a well- this is a well-used trail, this is not some goat trail in the middle of nowhere, this is a well-used trail. And so they start walking into the- through the forest and, uh, after a while, and this is something they would say after the fact but we know this is what was happening. As they were walking, their- the- the- the feel, the vibe of the night really changed as soon as they got into the woods. You know, they're- they're excited, the state's suddenly become exciting and then they get into the forest, they're on the trail, they're holding hands, they're walking, and both of them began feeling this really intense dread as they're walking in. But they don't know each other, they just, this is their first date, they don't have the- the background of a relationship to begin touching on something that's hard to point out. You know, th- neither of them turned to the other and said, "I feel uncomfortable." Instead they just kept their mouths shut and- and thought, "Okay, I'll just keep on going." So they stop talking, they begin walking faster out of this kind of nervous energy they have now, they're holding hands and th- and they're just walking through this trail, 'cause they're trying to get to this overlook, basically get it out of the way and come on back. But it's all unspoken. They haven't said, "Boy, this is anxious." They're just, they're feeling that way. And so they're walking on this trail, again, surrounded by trees, there's nobody else out there, and it's pretty dark, they don't have a flashlight, and as they're basically speed walking at this point in silence, at some point, they hear a rustling sound kind of off to the side and at the exact same time the guy steps on something that he described as being soft. And he stepped on it and he has no idea what he's stepping on. No clue. It's something soft. And he's heard this rustling sound and they're feeling anxious and he immediately stops 'cause he stepped on something, and the girl, she's sensing, "Okay, what's going on here?" And without any communication, they turned and walked out. Didn't even look down, they didn't, they have no idea what's going on. It was like they both knew...... let's get the fuck out of here. (laughs) I don't know what's going on out here. And they practically ran back to their car, totally safe. They get in their car, and now that they're in the safety of their car, they kind of begin laughing about it, like, "Gee, I wonder what that was? I stepped on something out there. I don't know. Something moving around, maybe it's a big animal, I don't know." But that was it. It was just, that was the whole date. And actually, they wound up getting married because this date was, like, this kind of amazing thing, but they bonded over the fear of being in this, this forest. And so they get married, and 10 years later, they're at home and the TV is on. It's, it's tuned to, to, like, a, a Dateline type of show, like a, a true crime show. And neither of them are really watching. But an in- an interview comes on, and it's, it's a journalist talking to a death row inmate. And it's a very famous death row inmate, and he's very near his execution date, and he's giving this kind of full-blown interview about, you know, what he did. And at some point, the journalist asks him, "Was there ever a time that you almost got caught before you got caught?" And the serial killer is like, "Yeah. There was a time. I was out in Provo Canyon, and I just killed a girl, and I was trying to dispose of her body. And I dragged her across the trail, and this young couple comes turning around the corner, and they stepped on the body. And I was maybe a foot away, holding her, looking up at them in the darkness, waiting to see what they were gonna do. But for some reason, the couple didn't look down, they didn't look around, they just turned and left. And so that was it. That was the, (laughs) that was the time I almost got caught." And so it would turn out, the guy, or where, they had come in contact with Ted Bundy, like one of the most infamous serial killers of all time, who effectively said had he investigated, he would've had to kill the couple. (laughs) It's great, so they got... Their first date was running into Ted Bundy.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- GBGwenda Blair
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh my God.
- GBGwenda Blair
And actually, I, there, if you're, if you're interested, there's several other close calls with Ted Bundy, that if you Google close calls with Ted Bundy, he, he came close to killing people several times. And it's, like, I, I don't have those-
- CWChris Williamson
Wasn't one with the VW Beetle? It was something with the VW Beetle?
- GBGwenda Blair
I forget what it wa- unfortunately, I don't remember all of the anecdotes-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GBGwenda Blair
... but there's quite a few that are... Th- that one is the most startling because it's so, like, visceral what happened. But the others were, you know, this girl who almost went on a date with Ted Bundy, but then ha- got a bad feeling about it and canceled, and it, like, the day later, he gets arrested for being Ted Bundy. Um, stuff like... Or one person who Ted Bundy randomly befriended this, this woman, and, uh, I think they were dating for a while, and he was very close with her child, and it was... I mean, he's, like, in their family while he's killing other people at the same time, and then he just broke up with her and moved on. Like, he didn't do anything to her or her family while he's actively killing all these women. But they're, for some reason, he just had this normal family, happy, wholesome relationship with this girl for, like, a year. And she would find out (laughs) after he was executed that she was actively dating a serial killer. So it's just, Ted Bundy had all these weird interactions with people that have been documented, but that one, to me, is the most startling.
- 45:35 – 56:40
Dr Andrew Huberman
- GBGwenda Blair
- CWChris Williamson
How can people become a morning person, or learn to get up early more easily, um, more regularly?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Um, three days of pain, the rest is easy. So, it takes about three days to shift the biological mechanisms to, um, make you a morning person. Now, if you are a v- very strongly genetically sh- determined night owl-
- CWChris Williamson
That's a thing?
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's a thing. So there are genetic mutations, they call them polymorphisms, that make some people night owls. They feel best, psychologically and physically, going to sleep at about 1:00, 2:00, or 3:00 AM and waking up somewhere around, you know, 10:00, 11:00 AM or noon.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That exists, not just during development or teen years, but that exists, and not just for social reasons. Other people are true morning people, they feel absolutely best going to sleep around 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM. 10:00 PM will be late for them. And they feel great waking up at 4:00, 5:00, or 6:00 AM, okay? Most people feel best going to sleep somewhere between 10:00 and midnight, and waking up somewhere between 6:00 AM and 8:00 AM or so, maybe 5:30 to 8:00 AM. Okay. So, those are three bins of the night owl, the morning person, and then the more typical schedule, but it's heavily weighted toward that typical schedule if you look at the general population. So, if somebody wants to get up earlier, you need to stack the four primary what are called zeitgebers or time keepers, so named because some of the early chronobiologists that discovered this stuff and the underlying mechanisms were German, as it were. So, the number one zeitgeber, the number one way to shift your circadian clock, which is this cluster of neurons that sits a few centimeters above the roof of your mouth, is to view bright light at a time when you want to be awake, AKA the morning, okay? So, that's why I say get outside, look at the sun, toward the sun. Don't force yourself to stare at it. Don't damage your eyes. Blink as needed. No sunglasses. Eye glasses, corrective lenses, and contacts are absolutely fine, even if they have UV protection. Okay. However, if you combine that with another zeitgeber, the second most powerful zeitgeber is exercise or movement. So if you do some jumping jacks, you skip some rope, or even just-
- CWChris Williamson
In the morning?
- AHAndrew Huberman
... take a walk while facing the sun, now you're starting to stack different zeitgebers. And I'll explain the mechanisms in a moment. If you then also add caffeine, now this spits in the face a little bit of what I said a few minutes ago, but if you were to add caffeine, you can entrain, as it's called, the circadian clock to be alert at that time a bit more. And I'll be honest, if I'm gonna exercise first thing in the morning, I need caffeine. I can't wait that 60 to 90 minutes. If I need to jump right into exercise, I find it's easiest for me to do 30 minutes after waking, three hours after waking, or 11 hours after waking, and a lot of people find that the same. But of course, exercise when you can because it's that important, but if you want to, quote unquote, "optimize your energy levels for exercise," typically people will notice that has to do with your temperature rhythm. Okay, so we've got sunlight, we've got exercise or movement of any kind. It could be jumping jacks, could be walking. You don't have to do a full workout. And then caffeine and, in some cases, food.I'm not big on eating first thing in the morning. I don't like to eat until 11:00 AM or noon, that's when my first meal arrives. For me, just naturally, that's when I get hungry. It's all caffeine and hydration prior to that. But if you were to eat something first thing in the morning, you... That's part of the way you entrain your circadian clock to wake up, to essentially wake you up earlier. And then the fourth one is a social rhythm. If you're interacting with other people, you're going to entrain your clock to that, as well. So-
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yes. So there's a socially, there's a social component to it, circadian entrainment. Now, the pathways for these are from the eye, in the case of viewing light, to the circadian clock, the suprachiasmatic nucleus. In the case of caffeine, it's more general. In the case of exercise, there's literally a brain stem to circadian clock connection, a big, a superhighway of neuronal connections, that then, so-called entrains your circadian clock. Remember, your circadian clock generates an intrinsic 24-hour rhythm, such that if we put you into constant dark or constant light, you would still sleep for a given bout and then be alert for a given bout with a little bit of a nap. It just is what we'd call free run. It would drift a little later each day. This is what happens when you go to Vegas, this is what happens when you're in an environment without a lot of cues about the day, uh, the sunlight, uh, rising and setting cycle.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Sunlight, exercise, caffeine and eating, and social interactions bring your circadian clock into alignment with all of those zeitgebers. So, when I said it takes three days, if tomorrow you wanna start beginning the process of becoming an early riser, you'd set your alarm for 5:00 AM. No matter what time you went to sleep the night before, you gonna get up and you're gonna do the four things that I described. Maybe leave out food if you don't wanna eat. Maybe leave out caffeine if you wanna delay by 90 minutes. It's gonna hurt. And then by the early afternoon, you'll be dragging a bit. And you just have to be careful to not overindulge in caffeine, which will then cause you to fall asleep later. Then you wanna go to sleep at your now naturally slightly earlier sleep time. The next day, you'll notice, you'll f-... It'll be a little bit easier to do the morning routine I just described. And by the third day, you ought to be waking up with or before the alarm by a few minutes or moments. Because your circadian clock has phase shifted, okay? It's phase advanced, as we say. Your circadian clock intrinsic to you generates a 24.2 or a 24.3-hour rhythm. It's not perfectly 24 hours. And that, we believe, we don't know, but the just-so story is that it's, that it's such that, that you're able to then shift that clock in, in one or the other direction. You can phase advance, so you wake up earlier and go to sleep earlier. You can phase delay. How do you phase delay? Well, you're probably doing this already. Everyone nowadays, pretty much, qualifies as a shift worker by the strict and not-so-strict criteria of shift work, which is are you doing any kind of cognitive activity after 9:00 PM? Are you viewing any kind of bright lights after 9:30 PM? Most people would say yes. So, the, the diabolical thing about the circadian timing system is that it requires a lot of bright light, ideally from sunlight, but a lot of bright light early in the day to make you a morning and daytime person.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But it requires just a little bit of bright light, even from an artificial source, after the hours of about 9:30 PM till 4:00 AM to quash your melatonin and make it difficult to sleep, or if you sleep, to make that sleep not as effective. There's a simple remedy, however, which is... And this is a beautiful study published in Science Reports in 2022. If you view sunlight in the afternoon, even for five minutes or so, could be late afternoon, could be sunset, take off your sunglasses, look in the direction of the sun, so now looking west. You adjust the sensitivity of your retina, the neurons in the back of your eye, such that bright light later at night doesn't have quite as much effect to suppress melatonin. It reduces the melatonin-suppressive effects by about 50%, or offsets those. So I think of this afternoon viewing as, well, first of all, it's nice to look at a sunset. If you're indoors in an environment like this, even if there are bright lights on, get outside for a few minutes before the sun sets. This is especially important in winter. Even if you can't see the sun as an object, get some sunlight in your eyes and that will at least partially offset the effects of bright light in your eyes at night. Partially. And I refer to this more or less as your Netflix inoculation so that that night you can be on your phone or watching Netflix and it's not going to disrupt your sleep as much, but it will still disrupt your sleep somewhat. But let's... You know, unless... Like, Rick Rubin's very diligent about wearing the, uh, red lens glasses. I've started doing that as well. Um, but if you don't do that, you g-... Well, I'm guessing he also sees the sunset in the evening.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, he's very attached, for good, scientific reasons, uh, to the, the sunlight thing. But these are little things that take just moments, right? They're essentially zero cost. They can really improve your sleep. But that's how you become a morning person. If you wanna become a night person, you do the opposite. You view bright light between the hours of 4:00 PM and 10:00 PM and there, then you will phase delay or phase shift-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in a delayed way your circadian clock, making you want to wake up later the next morning.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder if dogs count as a social interaction.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Absolutely. And they have all of the same mechanisms we just described.
- CWChris Williamson
So I'm just thinking-
- AHAndrew Huberman
They have s- uh- uh-
- CWChris Williamson
How can we stack that everything first thing in the morning, morning walk.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You, i- i- if you're in a place that's not Iceland or somewhere that's super high north.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Dog.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Social interaction. Mo- moving around and then caffeine, if you do or if you don't, if you don't want it. But, uh...
- 56:40 – 1:06:15
Dry Creek Dewayne
- AHAndrew Huberman
- CWChris Williamson
How have you learned to have a better relationship with yourself, the voice inside of your head, to be, to be kinder if things go badly? You're smiling. (laughs)
- JVJohn Vervaeke
I like me. I like me. Um, I would buy me a drink. I look at me now, and I, and I see all the warts, okay? I see all the negatives more than anybody else does. I see the positives. And over the whole balance of stuff, I like me. And I can give myself the same grace. If you and I were friends, I can give myself the same grace I can give you because I like me. I like me in spite of my understanding and the reality of my weaknesses and my warts and my scars and everything. But, you know, all in all, I'm a pretty good dude. And, uh, man, you, you gotta get to that point, outside of arrogance. Arrogance is pride mixed with ignorance. All right? That, that's the definition of arrogance. I'm not talking arrogance. I'm talking about, look, as a human being, I've failed at this, I've succeeded at that, I've wrecked this, but I've built that. And all in all, you know, I've tried. And, uh ... but I like me, so I'm gonna give me some grace. And it's as simple as that. I would buy me a cigar.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how many men can say that.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Not as many as should. And it's a shame.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how many people can say that, how many people say, "I like me." They would give more grace, more care, more attention, more love to somebody else-
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... than themselves.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, a statistic around, I think, on average, the likelihood that you are going to complete a course of antibiotics yourself-
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is about 50%.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
The likelihood of your dog completing it is 95%.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Yes. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, we're literally capable of caring for a pet-
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... nearly double as well as we can for ourselves. Remembering that if you die, no one can look after the pet.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So, in an odd, roundabout way, serving yourself and f- serving others from a cup which overflows around your own-
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, or the saucer that sits around your cup is, is important. Uh, without, and again, this sort of tension between being self-serving, being narcissistic, being egotistical, being self-centered-
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... but not meaning that.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
It's this delicate balance.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
It-
- CWChris Williamson
And this is what comes with growing up.
- JVJohn Vervaeke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think this is why one-size-fits-all flaming sword advice seems to die away as people get a little older.
- 1:06:15 – 1:22:47
Dr Rhonda Patrick
- JVJohn Vervaeke
- CWChris Williamson
Lots of benefits of improving VO2 max. What are... Take us through the Norwegian four by four again, and then w- what else is in there? If there was a protocol or a number of protocols you were gonna design, here's a program that you can take away today into your gym and do that will help to improve your VO2 max. What would you tell people?
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
I would say the Norwegian four by four is by far the best, and you're gonna get the... If, for the people that are really, um, determined and committed, that would be it. That would be the four minutes of the exercise intensity as hard as you can go and maintain it for that entire four minutes. So obviously-
- CWChris Williamson
Just dig into that. What, what do you mean? As hard as you can go and maintain it, what does that mean?
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
It means you don't wanna go, like, all out, like, like, 95% of your, your max heart rate, um, because then you can only last for, like, a minute.You know, and so- so then you're gonna go down. You're gonna, you're gonna slow down, right? So what it means is, like, you wanna go, you know, it- it might, for some people it might be like 75% max heart rate, right? So for some people it might be 80%. But you wanna go as hard as you can for the four minutes, uh, y- without, like, really slowing down. So you kind of have to pace yourself a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
But you don't wanna go too slow, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
Like, you- you definitely can't be talking. Like, you sh- not be able to talk, for sure, when you're doing it. So it's hard enough that you just absolutely can't talk. But it's not all-out. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Four minutes?
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
Four minutes, and then three minutes of totally light. Like, you're going all the way. This is like, you know, you're- you're like back to like zone one, if you wanna (laughs) call it something. So-
- CWChris Williamson
If your heart can come- come down quickly.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
If your heart can come down, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
And you're doing that for three minutes, because you wanna give your s- you wanna recover so that you can do it again. And it- and you repeat it. It's a- it's a four, it's a four-time protocol, so you do it once and then you repeat it three times. Or you just-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
... call it the 4x4. I think that's probably one of the- the best protocols to improve VO2 max. Now, uh, Dr. Martin Gibala, um, I've had him on my podcast, he's a real expert on these high-intensity interval training protocols. He does a lot of research on it at McMaster University, um, in Ontario, Canada. And he also says you- there, you know, there- there's evidence that a one-minute protocol, so like just even doing like an interval, like one-minute interval and then doing that like, you know, a few times, also can improve VO2 max. So that's a little easier, and als- it's easier, like I like, I- I do one-minute intervals. Um, I'm trying to now incorporate the 4x4 into my routine, um, which is coaches help with that. So, um, but it is-
- CWChris Williamson
I imagine it's a motivation thing, which is probably one of the biggest hurdles to get over. That just if you've got any programming for interview that isn't the Norwegian 4x4 for the day, you go, "Ah, maybe it's back and biceps," or, "Ah, maybe I'll just go for a little jog." It's like manana, manana, manana.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
Yeah, it is. It, but again, like I said, you do have to do s- you try to make it consistent. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, frequency per week?
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
Well, the Norwegian 4x4 would be like one time a week.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, okay.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's-
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's the dose.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
That's the, that's the hard day.
- CWChris Williamson
That's less, that's less miserable.
- EEElliot Royce (training / endurance guest – likely Norwegian 4x4 protocol expert)
That's the hard day. It is.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
Episode duration: 2:06:22
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