Modern WisdomThe Best Moments of Modern Wisdom (2025)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,097 words- 0:00 – 1:52
Intro
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening, people? Welcome back to the show. It is the end of 2025, and to celebrate, I've put together a collection of my favorite moments from the podcast over the last 12 months. Some huge episodes that you probably saw, some other episodes that maybe you missed, and I've put them all together in an interesting flow and pacing, and I- I really loved all of these. I love all of m- I love all 1,040 of my podcast children, um, but these were just some highlights from 2025. Uh, I appreciate you all for being here, I appreciate you all for making Modern Wisdom the eighth biggest podcast in the world, according to Spotify Wrapped this year, which is insane, and, uh, thank you for all the support and all the shares and all the everything. Thank you for staying patient with me when, uh, I've tried to bring in new ideas and guests that you've never heard of. I really, really do work hard to try and curate a nice art gallery that even if you don't know who the artist is, you're probably going to enjoy their work. Uh, so thank you for (laughs) sticking with me as I go down rabbit holes that you didn't know that you were going to enjoy, and commenting and all of the support and- and everything. E- especially this year more than ever, it's meant an awful lot to me. So, uh, yeah, I- I appreciate every single one of you. Uh, before we get into it, you need to do an end of year review, and the review process that I use for myself, that I have stolen from all the best productivity guys on the planet, uh, is at chriswillx.com/review. Hundred thousands, literally hundreds of thousands of people have recorded it and done their work on it already, and, um, you can get it for free. Copy it into your notes app and do your end of year review. So, chriswillx.com/review. Anyway, merry Christmas, happy New Year. Let's get into it.
- 1:52 – 10:36
Naval Ravikant
- CWChris Williamson
The worst outcome in the world is not having self-esteem. Why?
- NRNaval Ravikant
Yeah, it's a tough one. Uh, well, (laughs) I- I- I- I look at the people, and- and I don't wanna offend anybody, but I look at the people who don't like themselves, and that's the toughest slot, because they're always wrestling with themselves, and it's hard enough to face the outside world, um, and no one's gonna like you more than you like yourself. So if you're struggling with yourself, then the outside world becomes an insurmountable challenge. And it's hard to say why people have low self-esteem. It might be genetic, it might just be circumstantial. A lot of times I think it's 'cause they just weren't unconditionally loved as a child, and that sort of seeps in at a deep, core level. Um, but self-esteem issues can be the most limiting. Uh, one interesting thought is that, you know, to some extent, self-esteem is a reputation you have with yourself. Um, you're watching yourself at all times. You know what you're doing. And you have your own moral code. Everyone has a different moral code. But if you don't live up to your own moral code, the same code that you hold others to, uh, it will damage your self-esteem. So perhaps one way to build up your self-esteem is to live up to your own code very rigorously. Have one, and then live up to it. Uh, another way to raise your self-esteem might be to do things for others. Uh, if I look back on my life and, you know, what are the moments that I'm actually proud of, there's very far and few between, and it's not that often, and it's not the things you would expect. It's not the material success, it's not having learned this thing or that. It's when I made a sacrifice for somebody or something that I loved, and, uh, that's when I'm actually, ironically, most proud. Now, that's through an explicit mental exercise, but I'll bet you at some level, I'm recording that implicitly. So that tells me that even if I am not being loved, then the way to create love is to give love, to- to express love, through sacrifice and through duty. And so I think doing things like that can build up your self-esteem really fast.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting when you talk about sacrifice, because a lot of the time, people say, "Well, I sacrificed so much for my job." It's like, y- yeah, but that was you sacrificing something that you wanted less for something that you wanted more, as opposed to genuinely taking some sort of cost. And, uh, yeah, I wonder whether, if self-esteem is you adhering to your internal, uh, uh, your- your actions and your values aligning, um, even when it's difficult, or perhaps even more so when it's difficult, I wonder whether there is a price that people who are more introspective, high integrity, pay, because you think, "Well, you've got this, uh, heavier set of overheads that you need to pay in some way."
- NRNaval Ravikant
Well, if being ethical were profitable, everybody would do it. Right? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- NRNaval Ravikant
So, uh, you- i- at some level, it does involve a sacrifice, uh, but that sacrifice can also be thought of as you're thinking for the long term rather than the short term. Um, for example, the virtues are the set of, uh, uh, virtues are the set of beliefs that if everybody in society followed them as individuals, it would lead to win-win outcomes for everybody. So if I am honest and you are honest, then we can do business more easily, we can interact more easily, 'cause we can trust each other. So even though there might be a few liars in the system, as long as there aren't too many liars and too many cheaters, uh, a high-trust society where everybody's honest is better off. And I think a lot of the virtues work this way, right? If I don't go around sleeping with your wife and you don't sleep with mine, and you know, if I don't take all the food that's at the table first and so on, then we all get along better and we can play win-win games. Uh, in game theory, the f- most famous game is Prisoner's Dilemma, but that's all about everybody cheating and the Nash equilibrium, the stable equilibrium there is everybody cheats, and your for- the only way you can be- you can play a win-win game is if you have long-term iterated moves. But that's not actually the most common game played in society. The most common game played is one called a stag's hunt, where if we cooperate, we can bring down a big stag and both have big dinners, but if we don't cooperate, then we have to go hunt, like, rabbits and we each have small dinners.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- NRNaval Ravikant
So most of, uh... And- and that game has two stable equilibriums, and one could be where we're both hunting the rabbit, and one could be where we're hunting the stag. So the high-trust society is a more- most- more virtuous society where I can trust you to come hunt the stag with me and show up on time and do the work and divide it up properly. So you want to live in a system where everybody has their own set of virtues and follows them and then we all win. S- but-I would argue you don't need to do that for sacrifice, you don't need to do that for other people. You can do it just purely for yourself. You will have higher self-esteem. You willattract other high-virtue people in the system.
- CWChris Williamson
Would I go on a stag hunt with me?
- NRNaval Ravikant
Correct. Yeah, that's right. And if you're the kind of person, if you're the kind of person who long term signals ethics and virtues, then you'll attract other people who are ethical and virtuous. Whereas if you are a shark, you will eventually find yourself swimming entirely amongst sharks, and that's an unpleasant existence. But again, this goes back to the equivalent of the marshmallow test. And by the way, the marshmallow test does not replicate, it's a fake- a fake science. Um... Right.
- CWChris Williamson
I saw, it got- it got-
- NRNaval Ravikant
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the replication crisis hard recently.
- NRNaval Ravikant
Right. But it is about trading off the short-term for the long-term. Uh, and so I think for a lot of these so-called virtues, there are long-term selfish reasons to be virtuous.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah. Uh, did you deal with self-doubt in the past? Is that something that was a hurdle for you to overcome?
- NRNaval Ravikant
Yes and no. I think I- I dealt with self-doubt in the sense that, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing and I need to figure it out." Um, but I didn't doubt myself in the way of somebody else knows better than me for me, or that, you know, I'm an idiot or I'm not worthwhile or anything that... I- I guess I had the benefit of I grew up with a lot of love. Like, the people around me loved me unconditionally, and so that just gave me a lot of confidence. Uh, not the kind of confidence that would say, "I have the answer-"
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- NRNaval Ravikant
... but the kind of confidence that, "I will figure it out and I know what I want," or, "Only I am a good arbiter of what I want."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that level of self-belief, I suppose, allows you to determine, "What is it that matters to me? My self-esteem, uh, d- should I chase this thing or not?" I can make a fair judgment on that as opposed to being so swayed. But, uh, it's such a good point about even if you think you're not consciously logging the stuff that you're doing, there is some that's in the back of your mind. Was it the daemon? Is that what the, uh, ancient Greeks or something used to talk about?
- NRNaval Ravikant
Yeah, they, they... Yeah. Also in computer science, like, there's a concept of a daemon, which is a, uh, a program that's always running in the background, you can't see it.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- NRNaval Ravikant
Um, but yeah, it probably comes from the ancient Greek daemon.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NRNaval Ravikant
Uh, but yeah, the, uh, what you know that you don't even know you know (laughs) is far greater than what you know you know, right?
- CWChris Williamson
All right.
- NRNaval Ravikant
You can't even articulate most of the things you know. There are feelings you have that have no words for them. There are thoughts you have that are felt within the body or subconsciously that you never articulate to yourself. You don't really... You can't articulate the rules of grammar, yet you exercise them effortlessly when you speak. So, I- I would argue that your implicit knowledge and your knowledge that is unknown to yourself is far greater than the knowledge you can articulate and that you can communicate. And so at some level, you're always watching yourself. That's what your consciousness is, right? It's the thing that's watching everything, including your mind, including your body.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NRNaval Ravikant
So if you want to, uh, have high self-esteem, then earn your own self-respect.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I had this idea, the internal golden rule. So the golden rule says, "Treat others the way that you should be treated, you want to be treated." The internal golden rule says, "Treat yourself like others should have treated you."
- NRNaval Ravikant
Mm-hmm.
- 10:36 – 17:13
Tom Segura
- NRNaval Ravikant
the problem.
- CWChris Williamson
I went to this, uh, daytime house music party in Austin on Saturday. It's called Mushroom Cowboy.
- NRNaval Ravikant
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's, uh-
- TSTom Segura
Microdose the kind of event?
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know. I think they're kind of hinting at that, but it's in a coffee... Well, it was outside of a coffee shop off Congress.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I turn up at half 10, it started at 10:00, and the queue is 250 yards long for coffee.
- TSTom Segura
What?
- CWChris Williamson
And there must have been 1,500 people there. One guy brought a baguette, he was raving with his baguette. There was dogs, you know, every... Pretty- pretty sober looking from the outside, maybe some people smoking weed. But, uh, I think this is maybe the beginning of us seeing the end of, like, hardcore drink culture. If you've looked at how few of Gen Z now drink-
- TSTom Segura
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's, I think, maybe 20%.
- TSTom Segura
The interesting thing is, like, the- the theories on why, 'cause there's obviously the- the- the- there- they have to be theories, right? On- on... We don't actually know exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah. Uh, one of them is that people... The youth views drinking as, like, what their parents did, right? So that's like, "Well, that's the-"
- CWChris Williamson
Naturally uncool. (laughs)
- TSTom Segura
Yeah. Like, "My fucking lame-ass dad drinks."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TSTom Segura
Like, "I don't... I'm not interested." And so that's one thing. The other part of it is that this, uh, group of people, uh, that are the youth right now are so much more informed on what the negative aspects of drinking and what it can do to you, that they're just like, "Why would I?" You know? "Why would I consume-"
- CWChris Williamson
Subject myself.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah. To- to something like that. And...... that they've found this whole other... You know, when you want to take the edge off, there's a lot more options, and it's also a lot more accepted today than it was 20 years ago. Like, the idea that you could microdose or do edibles or smoke or, you know what I mean? And then there's like all the ketamine and everything is like, oh, I have a, I have different things that I do when I want to have a recreational good time.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TSTom Segura
Um, and yeah, but it's, it's undeniable that it's, it's definitely way down.
- CWChris Williamson
There's more daily users in the US of weed now than there are of alcohol.
- TSTom Segura
Is that for real?
- CWChris Williamson
Overtaken, or at least that was the most recent study that I saw. In the US there are now more daily or near daily marijuana users than daily or near daily alcohol users.
- TSTom Segura
And that, and that, that thought was just completely, like if you're a c- a teen right now, you don't understand how preposterous that sounds coming from, like, if you were growing up in the '80s and '90s. Like, you were just like, "That is, that," th- those were like fringe people almost, you know what I mean? Like yes it was popular, but i- it was not like s- a respectable person really wasn't doing that, you know? It was like the arts, it was like hippies and, and yeah, it was, s- I mean people thought of it as like the absolute worst thing that could happen. I mean, people from like my d- dad's generation likened marijuana to heroin. They didn't even see like really a difference, they're just like, "You're a junkie." It's like, "But what, for smoking a joint?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
And like, yeah, that's the way they viewed it. So the fact that it's that accepted now, it's, it's mind-blowing to me.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder if some of it is that drinking in the house on your own s- feels pretty fucking bad.
- 17:13 – 21:38
Tony Robbins
- TSTom Segura
- TRTony Robbins
These are the three decisions that I think everyone makes every moment. First, you're doing it right now, what are you gonna focus on? You could be focusing on my s- story I'm telling you, you could be focusing on the next question you're gonna ask, you could be focusing on how your stomach feels if you've not eaten. There's a million things you could focus on, literally. But we don't experience life, we experience the part of life we focus on. And so the bottom line is, I know my father and I had a different experience 'cause we had different focuses that day. I was focused on his food, you know, what a concept, this is cool. He was focused on that he had not taken care of his family. And I know that because, you know, he said it about 20 times under his breath, and my mother echoed it, of course. Um, the second decision though, the minute you focus on something, your brain has to decide what does it mean? And meaning is what creates emotion, and emotion is where your life is, right? And so the quality of life is the quality of your emotions. If you got a billion dollars and every day you're pissed off and angry, your life's quality is called pissed off and angry. If you've got three beautiful children, a husband or wife you love but you worry all the time, your life is worry, you know? So-... his focus and then his meaning, that was the worst part. The meaning he gave it was that he was worthless and didn't belong here. And that usually leads to the third decision, which is what are you gonna do? And, look, if you think, if the meaning is, uh, something happens and you say, "This person's dissing me," you know, "Disrespecting me," or, "Is this person challenging me?" Or, "Is this person coaching me?" Or, "Is this person loving me?" If you think they're dissing you, you're gonna have a very different emotional reaction than if you think they're coaching you or loving you. And then, of course, that's gonna change what decision you make, 'cause if you're angry, you're gonna make a different decision than if you're playful or generous or whatever the case may be. So, those three decisions control our lives. But, so, your viewers or listeners, I give them an opportunity to take a look at it, 'cause there's some patterns that you can make some simple patterns and change your whole life with focus. So, the first one is, and I'd ask you two questions for you. One, Chris, is what do you think most people's answer to this question is? And the other is, what's yours? If you're ready, ready to play, all right? For it's real simple. We all have a pattern of focusing on what we have and, at times, on what's missing. Which one do you think most people spend more time focusing on, what they have or what's missing?
- CWChris Williamson
What's missing.
- TRTony Robbins
What do you focus more on?
- CWChris Williamson
What's missing.
- TRTony Robbins
Yes. It isn't something that comes... The focus on what's missing is not something that comes with someone who is a failure. It comes very much with people who are very successful. And the question then becomes, if you're always focused on the missing, how can you sustain happiness?
- CWChris Williamson
You're in a permanent place of lack.
- TRTony Robbins
That's correct. So scarcity is there. So you'll have drive, right, to keep staying on the hamster wheel of achievement. But you're not gonna see much fulfillment and not in a sustainable way. It's impossible. And it has nothing to do with you or me, right? It's just software. And we got a soul. (laughs) We're not software. But you run your software so often, you start thinking your mind is you versus my mind is a tool that I'm gonna use. Or if I don't use it, it's gonna use me. So, the majority of people do that. And by the way, during COVID, that number exploded because so many things were taken from people, they were constantly focused on what's missing and that produces nothing but pain. Second question, and I think I know your answer to this one. Which do you tend to focus on more? Which do you think most people focus on more? What they can control or what they can't control? And then which one do you focus more on?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I think most people would probably focus on what they can't control. I'm an even balance, I would say, between the two.
- TRTony Robbins
That's good.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm working quite hard to try and-
- TRTony Robbins
I was gonna say, you strive as part of, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TRTony Robbins
... you know, your philosophy, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TRTony Robbins
To focus on what you can control, right? So, that's, uh, part of the Stoicism, wh- philosophy of Stoicism, right? So, but most people, you're absolutely right. Now, in my seminars, it's different because I got 15, 20,000 people. I ask that question and the va- vast majority of them say they're focused on what's missing, but the vast majority of them say they do focus on what they can control. That's why they came.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TRTony Robbins
Why would they spend their money and time when they wanna take control of their business or their body or their relationship, whatever the case may be? So they have a different belief structure. If you have both of those out of whack, you got some real challenges. Most people have at least one out of whack, which creates stress. And then the third one, and the- there's many more than these, but just quickie for the people at home and I'm asking them to do this for themselves if they want to. Where do you tend to focus more, your past, your present, or your future? We all spend on all three, but where do you spend more of your time? Where do you think most people do? Where do you?
- 21:38 – 34:58
Sam Sulek
- TRTony Robbins
- CWChris Williamson
Let's say that you only had 10 exercises for the rest of time-
- TRTony Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to build the best body that you could.
- TRTony Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What are you gonna choose?
- TRTony Robbins
Yeah, I've got a r-
- CWChris Williamson
Talk me through the philosophy.
- TRTony Robbins
I've got, I've got a roster set up. So when it go- when it comes to legs, I think that the idea of crazy heavy squats or leg press all the time, as a quad builder, it just wouldn't be it for me, 'cause I've had periods of time where I basically did leg extensions exclusively. Usually when I diet, my leg extension volume increases because, I mean, squeezing-wise, activation-wise, you know, if you slapped electronic pulse indicators, maybe you could get a real read-out of how much they're activating.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TRTony Robbins
But for me, like if I had to pick a quad movement, I would just kill it on the leg extensions 'cause you can really pump them up, go a little heavier.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TRTony Robbins
Like they're just... If I had to pick one, it'd be, they, that would be it.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- TRTony Robbins
Then hamstrings would be, I'd be a little torn, but I'd probably just pick, oh, I'm, I'm very torn. Either seated or laying curl.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TRTony Robbins
But either way, a hamstring curl. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
You've gotta pick one, I'm af- I'm afraid, Sam. You can't, you-
- TRTony Robbins
I guess I'd have to pick the, uh, I'd have to say laying. I would've picked-
- CWChris Williamson
So you could get a little bit more stretch?
- TRTony Robbins
I would... Well, I just like, not even because of that, because you would actually, in a seated position-
- CWChris Williamson
If you pull forward?
- TRTony Robbins
... would your, you know, hips not be more rounded over where your hamstrings tie in? So now they're actually more stretched.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TRTony Robbins
Like you feel your hamstring stretch when you bend your torso to touch your toes, not when you're laying down.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TRTony Robbins
So, like the idea when people talk about there's more stretch on the laying curl, like I don't, I don't even see it.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that depends. If you're sat like this, 'cause often there's handles-
- TRTony Robbins
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... people press themselves up.
- 34:58 – 44:39
Alex Hormozi
- CWChris Williamson
The single greatest skill you can develop is the ability to stay in a good mood in the absence of things to be in a good mood about.
- AHAlex Hormozi
I think that tweet has been my theme for 2025. Um, it's been, it's, it's funny 'cause that was the most shared tweet I've ever had. Um, and it was so, it was like (laughs) , it's, it was almost, um... (sighs) not the opposite of ironic. It was fitting, right? It was completely fitting for the year, and it's been because, like, this year I've had a, a just, I, I would say, a series of unfortunate events, um, that has occurred, and it's really tested my tools, right? Tools in the tool belt, um, for reframing reality so that I can make my experience less, you know, miserable. And so, I thought about that. It's like, if I were to, if I were to boil everything down, um, of all the skills that you can learn, if everything that we do eventually becomes irrelevant, then the single greatest skill that you can develop is being in a great mood in the absence of things to be in a great mood about. And so one of the other frames on this is most people don't question someone who's in a bad mood. Like, "I'm just in a bad mood." So it's like, well, if you can be in a bad mood for no reason, it's like, you might as well be in a good mood for no reason (laughs) 'cause that one at least serves you. And so I've been trying to exercise, like, 'cause there's, on one degree, there's like, let's count things to be grateful for. On the other side, it's like, why do I have to have things to be grateful for in order to be in a good mood?... like, why is trying to find things a requirement of being in that mood? Like, can I not find things and still choose to be in a good mood? Because I've certainly not had things to be in a bad mood about and been in a bad mood.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlex Hormozi
And so I've been trying to flex that, which is, like, sure, we can find things to be grateful for, and when those things pop up, yes, and of course it's a pr- you know, it's a practice, you get better at it. But, like, what if I could just be in a good mood? (laughs) And so I've just tried to- tried to break that- that relationship between the two, because then it makes it contingent on something that I can find.
- CWChris Williamson
How successful have you been at that?
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mediocre. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Well, look, I think it's a, it's a, uh, lovely idea-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... in isolation-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, in theory, but I'm not convinced about how effective it is in practice, for the reason that humans have a negativity bias. You know, it's our psychological entropy.
- AHAlex Hormozi
100%.
- CWChris Williamson
And your ability to detect things that are a risk to you significantly better than your ability to detect things that are just pleasant. Like, this morning I texted you, and I was like, "Hey man, like, I really love the feeling I have of anticipation on a morning before we do a podcast." That's a normal, boring, mundane source of pleasure to me.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If I'm not really, really training myself to notice that-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I just f- it just fucking falls away with the fact that, huh, I asked for almond milk, and I bet this would have been better with, like, whole milk.
- AHAlex Hormozi
(laughs) That's the thing that ru- that ruins the day. And the thing is, is you do notice it though.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Right? You do notice that. Um, so I've had, um... One of my themes this year has been focusing on moments, and on both the positive and the negative. And so, like, when we think back on... If I think back on the last year, right? I don't remember probably 95% of the year. Like, I, you know, I did s- the same things, and so it's like it just didn't get recorded. Like, nothing notable happened. Um, and so really, like, when we think about a year, we really just recall a handful of moments, and that's it. And those moments in time are usually very short. And so I've been trying to think about, um, the bad, you know, seasons as, well, maybe it wasn't a bad season. Maybe I had five bad days, or really five bad moments that I then thought about for the (laughs) entire season, and turned what would have otherwise been five minutes times five into an entirely bad year. And so it's like, okay, well if we can do that in the negative, can we do it in the positive? Which is, you know, obviously the thing to- to exercise. But to the point that you said earlier about our- our ability to detect threat and risk at such a- such better accuracy than our ability to d- detect good things, it's so interesting, because if you use that side of your brain, um, not to derail us, but like, I think that has been one of the things that's helped me a tremendous amount in business. Because when I think about a business and I want to grow it, for example, I would think, okay, what are all the things that can destroy this business? And this is Charlie Munger. This isn't me. Um, but basically he says, "Invert, always invert." And Einstein said that too. And it's because, like, you get to use this- this way stronger horsepower engine of, like, "How do I grow my b- my business?" That's a, uh... you can obviously think that way. But the alternative would be like, "How would I absolutely destroy this business in the fewest possible moves?" And then when you list out those moves, you're like, "Cool, now let's do the opposite of that."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- AHAlex Hormozi
And that has been, um... Honestly a lot of the- some of the sources of my greatest kind of creative moments have come from these apparently obvious things that would kill us. Well, what if we did the in- even more obvious thing and did the o- the opposite of what would destroy us? (laughs) Um, and it's worked, it's worked, um, better than I deserve.
- CWChris Williamson
So this is the problem.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, you can be rec- rewarded professionally-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for focusing on things that you do not want to focus on personally. And Ryan Long taught me this. He was talking about how he sp- he's a comedian, Canadian comedian, really funny guy. Spends all of this time, you know, dialing in these bits and obsessing over-
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... how it could be better, and then he says to himself, "Yeah, but I don't want you to do that in your relationships." You know, can you let that go-
- AHAlex Hormozi
(laughs)
- 44:39 – 52:51
Jimmy Carr
- AHAlex Hormozi
- GUGuest
It's very healthy to have, um, an inner critic, but it's also- it's the- there's the golden rule and then there's the- there's the platinum rule, right? There's the treat others as you want to be treated.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
And then there's the treat yourself as you treat others.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm.
- GUGuest
Most people are very kind. Like, you're nicer to me than you are to yourself.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
Like, it- it- if you said the shit you say to yourself to me, we wouldn't be friends. Um, and I think that thing of, like, the- the inner critic has to be- it's, um, as long as it's process driven, I think it's- it's very, very healthy.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
It's that imposter syndrome. It's, yeah, okay, feel like an imposter for a while. As long as it gives you- as long as you can get back to a granular level where it gives you something to work on. Like, the inner critic can't just be- it can't just be, like, "That's bad."
- AHAlex Hormozi
Mm.
- GUGuest
It's gotta be, "Oh, that- that didn't work, so we need to change it," or, "That one's- that one's not gonna work, so we're gonna write something new." It- it's gotta be something that's like, uh, you're working towards something, you're aiming up. Mm-hmm.
- AHAlex Hormozi
And I think criticism's very important. I mean, Walt Disney used to do this thing where he had, like, the- he had three rooms. You know this thing? Of like, one for creativity, uh, one for sort of, um, management, like how would you do the idea, and then it was only in the third room that you were allowed to be critical. It's kind of fun idea of like going to sort of compa-
- GUGuest
No bad ideas.
- AHAlex Hormozi
... compartmentalize. Well, I do think that thing of, like, never refuse the muse. If you're working in anything creative, just write it down.
- GUGuest
That's...
- AHAlex Hormozi
Something comes to you, you just, yeah, you write it down.
- GUGuest
That's the Naval one, right? Inspiration is perishable, act on it immediately.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah.
- GUGuest
Yeah, there's a- uh, Tim Ferriss says, "The world rewards the specific ask and punishes the vague wish." And I think that sort of inner critic voice can expand out into, "I don't feel good about the thing I did." Okay, well, that's probably the first place that everybody gets. I'm not- not really too sure about why, but there's some sense of discontent about something that just happened or something that I'm about to do. Probably very normal. You don't know where it's coming from and you don't know what it's about, and you don't know what to do to fix it. Okay, so how about we get away from the vague critic and we move toward the specific coach with regards to this? Okay, so what precisely is it that you're concerned about? "Well, I don't feel fully prepared for the presentation I've got to give tomorrow." Okay, is that fair? Do you know that it's true? Do you think that you haven't prepared enough? "Well, actually, I've prepared quite a lot. To be honest, I think this is probably just my fear trying to be sneaky and sort of turn itself into a way that I'm gonna believe it." All right, well, what are you gonna do about it? "Well, I'll just check my notes a- a few more times, and actually, huh, it seems like I do know this pretty well."
- AHAlex Hormozi
But the- the- yeah. The inner critic, it's not often wrong, just you can say it in a nice way. You know, it's- it's- it- it- sometimes it's right, sometimes you fuck up, sometimes it's not- it's not- it wasn't good enough.
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlex Hormozi
And that's okay. It's like- it's the, um, it's the idea of like going, um, it's not repetition, it's iteration.
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlex Hormozi
It's like lots of different- you know, doing the same thing again and again doesn't make you better, but tweaking it and knowing what to tweak is that- that's- you have to listen to an inner critic. I think the- the- um, uh, is it Hormozy? Uh, it- it's- Hormozy's so good for quotes. But it's- I think it was, um, uh, self-confidence without evidence is delusion.
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Some version of that. Uh...
- GUGuest
Confidence- uh, confidence without competence is delusion.
- AHAlex Hormozi
Yeah. It's- it's so true. And you do meet people along the way that have that incredible confidence or they- they- they sort of exude that, and then they- they don't have the- the confidence.
- GUGuest
Anything to back it up. Yeah.
- 52:51 – 1:01:01
Chris Bumstead
- GUGuest
- CWChris Williamson
Has no longer having the Olympia impacted your drive and passion in other areas of your life? You know, you've got the dad/husband thing, business, k- uh, d- desire to work on yourself in a sort of from a personal standpoint. How have you found drive and motivation separate and also wrapped up in what you were doing previously?
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm. I wouldn't say it directly decreased because there's no Olympia, but I think almost as like a byproduct of what the Olympia was for me, of like a schedule of a year, of like the first half of the year is X. You have some time off, you can recover, give yourself a break, and then you start to ramp up, you travel, focus on business, and then near the end you go inward, you figure out what's driving you, what's pulling you back right now, self-reflect, spend time away from bullshit, focus on yourself, be selfish, work, it's intense schedule. And like it was this like organized routine, and then all of a sudden it was all gone. And that on top of the singular goal of being like, "Where do I put my energy now?" I think definitely left me in a place of feeling a little bit lost of not figuring out like where do... Do I still have the passion for anything? Where do I find that energy to put into something? What do I put it into? Does it even exist? Will it exist again? And then it kinda led to me... Then I had an injury, I stopped working out for a while, and I just started to wake up in the morning exhausted and not knowing what to do. Going in and helping with this business, going on this trip for that travel, a meeting here with the distribution center, blah blah blah, all these little things for all these other things that weren't really, like, driving me. I didn't have like an important big role in them, I was just like kinda coasting through. And I started to wake up and feel pretty lost in general of like, "Where do I pro- where am I progressing to?" essentially. And that was when I was kinda like... What I'm w- honestly, I'm still working through it. I don't have this answer but w- I-... thing I'm working for is just, like, empathizing with myself that I don't need to be constantly progressing towards something, that I don't need to be getting better and have this big goal and doing X, and I can just sit and rest for a while, and, like, truly just, like, do nothing, uh, and be good enough as that is, and let something come and figure it as it goes. And that's a- that was tough for me. It l- it- it is tough for me-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
... and speaking in proper-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
... verbiage of figuring that out.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
And the funniest little thing of what has made me feel better recently was working out again on a schedule and eating five meals a day and weighing out my food and having that little bit of structure of, like... And not having to as well. It's like all this stuff's going on in my life, I don't know, I'm kind of lost, what can I do? Well, I can go work out again.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
And I don't have to-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
... so now I'm choosing to. Well, why are you so working out so hard? Why are you training so hard? It's like, well, I just because I love it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's why-
- GUGuest
I feel good.
- CWChris Williamson
It's why I used to do it 12 years ago.
- GUGuest
Exactly. And that's all of a sudden I'm getting more and more excited to go back in the gym, or even in prep last year I started to be, oh, I have to go work out. And then all of a sudden I just start to feel better day to day, and it's these little changes, and I realize this is truly how I fell in love with the gym-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
... and why I'm such a big advocate of weightlifting. Like, I honestly kind of hope I don't inspire people to get into bodybuilding because it's tough, it's fucked up, it's not good for your health, but I do want to inspire people to go lift weights, get in the gym and want to get jacked, because it's such like, "Oh, I'm lost. I don't know what to do." Just go work out. Apply some discipline, work hard, find something you love that's, like, difficult, that shows you progress, builds confidence, and just go do it. And then from there, then you can clear your mind a little bit, have self-confidence, start looking around a little bit more clear, start looking inward and figuring out what is next for you, and finding that next goal and working towards it. So for me, that's why I like... I just fucking love the gym so much, and I'm so grateful that I'm back to a point of like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
... loving the gym.
- CWChris Williamson
This is the cash value or this was the price that you pay in retirement, I think. You know, 'cause what you're talking about, it's going to be difficult and things will be hard and you won't have the, um, the drive or the goal that you used to in the past.
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
All of those things are kind of fluffy concepts, but they come into land, they actually sort of meet reality with, I woke up on the morning and didn't know what to do. I felt tired a lot. I didn't want to train. I was short and snappy with my business partners. I- I found myself getting distracted with lots of little tasks because it made me feel important-
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and like people needed me. I packed my calendar out and did... 'Cause a lot of the time in advance of something happening, we probably have a good idea about what it's going to be like in the macro, but what we don't know is how it's actually going to appear, manifest in life, and it's navigating those things. So for instance, I've been sick for the last 18 months or so, and that's been hard, and I knew based on what the trajectory was going to be, what was going to be tough, that I was gonna have a lot of self-doubt, that I was going to lose confidence and self-esteem, that, um, I would feel like I was moving backward. Uh, all of these things. Uh, but the way that that actually appears, like the individual building block thoughts that you have, like that mean random little voice or that one night where you ruminate about that one thing, or you're more sensitive to criticism and that one comment from that person, or just can't really focus on your meditation as much. Like none of those are, I am going to lose confidence.
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
They are the individual incidents that contribute to my confidence has gone down.
- GUGuest
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Even if you knew it was gonna happen in advance, and even if in retrospect you can say, "Oh wow, both of these things converged," each of the little steps that occurred to make that happen kind of come out of nowhere a little bit because you don't know the effect of each little thing. Does that make sense?
- 1:01:01 – 1:07:37
Arthur Brooks
- GUGuest
... as a dad, you got one job, love her. If you wanna raise successful kids, especially boys, you have one job, love his mom. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That's so sick.
- GUGuest
It's crazy, but it's great in its way. It's beautiful in its way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
And it's, it, what, what, look, and see here's the funny thing. I mean, people often ask, like, you know, "What do I do? What should I teach my kids?" It doesn't matter what you tell them. You could talk to them in a foreign language.
- CWChris Williamson
Show them.
- GUGuest
All that matters is what you do. So the number one predictor, for example, of kids growing up and practicing your religion is whether their father practices a religion. There's like a 40% point difference in the father and the mother practicing on the predictive abil- on the predictive capacity on how, on how the kids are gonna grow up and behave.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GUGuest
And there's almo- it's almost certainly the case, it's because, I mean, when I was a little kid, I thought my dad was, you know, s- I thought he could lift the corner of the house.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
My dad was a math professor. He could not.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Now I realize he was a nerd, but at the time-
- GUGuest
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... I thought he was cool.
- GUGuest
Nerd? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. (laughs)
- GUGuest
Now that I'm a nerd, I recognize that. But, uh, and my dad was a very proud guy. I mean, he never would've bent the knee to any other man, but he was on his knees on Sunday.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GUGuest
And that had a big impact on the little dude. There's something bigger than my dad, and I saw it. And it like, it's in there, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- GUGuest
That's really important in every part of life. If you wanna teach virtue, practice virtue. Be the person you want your kids to actually turn into, and they will become that. Generally speaking, they'll become that person.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, I was thinking about, um, you know, w- this generation, both millennials and Gen Z, are the progeny of parents who didn't have the tools to sort of relate or navigate in the same way as an infinite number of w- evidence-based k- relationship coaches and, and the-
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... podcast world and the self-help and all the rest of it. Uh, I think, I wonder how they should go about thinking. Well, I didn't necessarily have the best example in front of me, because there was challenges here, and we did have, uh, uh, changing dynamics and, and motivations around the acceptance of divorce. And maybe I did grow up in, in a, a non-intact home and such, uh, but that sets expectations for what a good relationship is-
- GUGuest
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... supposed to be now. And there's this interesting, uh, not a burden I suppose, but a responsibility, opportunity to be a circuit breaker.
- GUGuest
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And to think, you know, uh, uh, Goggins talks about this. So, you know, he explains about how, um, his dad hit him a lot-
- GUGuest
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... as a kid.
- 1:07:37 – 1:15:38
Freya India
- GUGuest
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think so many girls are drawn to therapy culture?
- GUGuest
Oh, I think it's a lot of things. Um, I do think this is kind of a cliché thing to say now, but I do think therapy culture has replaced religion. Um, and that's not a new thing to say. People have been saying that for a long time, so... Christopher Lash was writing about that in the '70s. Uh, Frank Furedi writes about it really well now. But in recent years, since social media, I would say, therapy culture has just escalated, um, to the point where I think young women don't see it as a worldview. They just see that as kind of life, so they interpret everything through this therapeutic lens. So their lives, their relationships, their emotions. Um, and I think it has elevated to the level of religion. Um, so you think of, you think of all the kind of characteristics of religion, we just mimic them with therapy culture, so instead of praying, we just repeat our, like, positive affirmations. Um, instead of, like, seeking salvation, you'll go on, like, a healing journey. Um, instead of, like, you know, resisting temptation from the devil, you'll reframe your intrusive thoughts. Um, and so I think the young women in particular who are becoming less religious, this kind of therapeutic worldview has completely replaced that void.
- CWChris Williamson
What does a therapeutic worldview consist of? What, what, what does that mean?
- GUGuest
Um, like seeing problems in your life, kind of pathologizing problems and experiences as something medical rather than, "I'm just experiencing this emotion or kind of age-old anxiety." Now it's become a medical issue. Um, so things like talking in the language of attachment styles, uh, and, and trauma and losing the language of just ordinary hurt and disappointment and things like that.
- CWChris Williamson
And for some reason, this is giving some kind of solace or comfort-
- GUGuest
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... so, uh, order being brought out of chaos?
- GUGuest
I think it gives the comfort religion gives, and the consolation of, like, you, like, you see p- young women on TikTok saying things like, um, like, they won't pray to God, but they'll give a request to the universe-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- GUGuest
... and like, have faith in that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GUGuest
And so I think it gives all the comfort of religion, but it takes away the inconvenient parts, so the, any actual demands on you or kind of restrictions on your freedom or anything like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm, being held to standards of behavior-
- GUGuest
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... et cetera.
- GUGuest
So it has what women are craving in modern life, I think, which is belonging and security in something and faith in something, but it's, it's a much easier version of religion.
- CWChris Williamson
Slippery religion.
- GUGuest
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How many of these girls are in therapy, do you think?
- GUGuest
A lot. Um, there, there was a study recently showing that 32% of all 12 to 17-year-olds in America have either had therapy, been on medication, or had some kind of treatment in 2023. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
In a s- over a single year. Yeah. One-third.
- GUGuest
Which is insane. And I w- was talking to someone about that statistic, and they were like, "Oh, that's great. That's amazing," and I was thinking, "That's a bleak statistic." Um, so yeah, I think there's, there's the girls that are in therapy, which is a lot, but then there's also the girls who are just, like, living in therapy culture, so it's just they scroll through Instagram, and it's all about attachment styles, trauma. They go on TikTok, and it's, like, a trauma-informed therapist telling them, like, red flags they should watch out for-
Episode duration: 3:11:40
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