The Blueprint for Better Relationships & a Peaceful Life - Dr John Delony

Chris Williamson 0:00 "If you are married, your spouse should have all of the codes to your phones, email accounts, and social media accounts, and you should have theirs, period. If your spouse isn't trustworthy or safe, you need to head directly into this challenge ASAP. You are worthy of safety and peace. If you are hiding things from your spouse, let today be your independence day from secret shame and fear. You are worth finally taking a full deep breath." Hmm. How did people respond to that?

Dr John Delony 0:22 Not well, man. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:24 (laughs) Let's go!

Dr John Delony 0:24 Not well, dude. Not well at all. The, the idea that, um... privacy and secrecy are the same thing. They've been conflated, and I think it's madness. I think it's madness. If you will create a human with somebody, but you won't give them the code to your phone, I can't think of anything more insane. That's insane.

Chris Williamson 0:46 There's a lot of dissonance going on there.

Dr John Delony 0:48 N- it's not... Dissonance is, like, a kind way to say it. It's, it's madness. It's madness.

Chris Williamson 0:54 That is wild.

Dr John Delony 0:54 Um, yeah. The, the number of folks that call into my show that are like, "Hey, I, I can't... I'm not gonna give her my phone," and it's like, "Why?" Like, "What is on that thing?" And it's like, "Well, it's mine." It's like, "Well, what's so... What, what are you hiding," right? And I think every, every major pathology ends up... Secrets fuel that, right? It's gasoline for pathology. And so, man, if you can't have a place in your life with the person you ride or die with, that you can say, like, "W- can you, can you check o- out my phone to get this picture off my phone?" If that gives... If that causes you pause, or worse, if your partner won't do that, yeah, man. You gotta, you gotta have that conversation, like, now. Yeah. Why does that sound crazy? Does that sound crazy?

Chris Williamson 1:38 I don't think so. I think it-

Dr John Delony 1:38 I'm an old married man, so may- maybe it doesn't occur to-

Chris Williamson 1:41 It would've, it would've done to me 10 years ago, but that's because there was loads of shit on my phone that I didn't want my girlfriend to see.

Dr John Delony 1:45 That's it. That's it.

Chris Williamson 1:46 Whereas now, I don't care. I don't... There's nothing on there that I need to be worried about.

Dr John Delony 1:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:53 Uh, so... (sighs) I, I... What blows my mind is that conflation, that privacy issue, that b- privacy versus honesty thing.

Dr John Delony 2:04 Yeah. So people... So my wife's a coach, and I work in mental health, right? So people are flying in all the time to stay at our house for a few days, and then... Or we'll go out into the country where I've got a place, and people will stay. I'll tell my wife, "Hey, I'm going out. Someone's coming in." So that's private, but it's not a s- I'm not, I'm not saying like, "Hey," uh, right (laughs) I'm, "I'm gonna go run an errand," right? And so, uh... And she, she has clients, right? But the idea that... I don't know. I think they're conflated, and I think that's madness. I think it's madness.

Chris Williamson 2:35 Well, it's... One interesting thing is the openness to give your partner your devices and email accounts and messages and social media and all that sort of stuff actually acts a little bit like a, a guardrail for your behavior as well. You know? Like, there's always-

Dr John Delony 2:52 Of course, of course.

Chris Williamson 2:53 ... there's always stuff that's kind of-

Dr John Delony 2:54 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 2:55 ... ambiguous-

Dr John Delony 2:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:57 ... y- d- s- some chick replies to your Instagram story.

Dr John Delony 2:59 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:00 Or somebody from your past that i- is associated with a- an ex or party or whatever. Like, it... You know. There's a, a million ways that this could go. Your behavior with that person can be the beginning of a l- just a little bit-

Dr John Delony 3:14 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:14 ... a little sort of fissure or a crack, um... I got a ton of stick for saying that, uh, if guys want to remain loyal to their partner, but they've struggled to keep their dick in their pants in the past, it's a bad idea for them to go out to a nightclub and drink with their friends until 3:00 in the morning. And the implication... It was... Both people didn't like that.

Dr John Delony 3:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:34 On one side, the guys didn't like it, because it felt controlling, and the girls didn't like it because it sounded like the guys were, uh, only loyal due to a lack of options. And like, look, if you're a mild version of a guy that likes cocaine but is trying to quit, being in a house with no cocaine is a fucking wonderful solution to that.

Dr John Delony 3:52 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:52 It's way easier to avoid temptation than it is to resist it.

Dr John Delony 3:56 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:56 And this... You can be the most loyal guy in the world, but if you're 15 beers deep, and t- the wrong night with the wrong thing, and you kind of didn't know what was going on, and this is a terminal, like, an existential problem that you found yourself in now, just remove yourself from the situation.

Dr John Delony 4:13 Don't go. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:13 It's way easier. And it's kind of the same with this. That if you and your partner have this level of honesty, transparency, openness, where you're just sharing each other's social media accounts back and forth. It's like, "Hey, can you just see if such-and-such has messaged me?" It's like, what's this fucking group chat with like-

Dr John Delony 4:28 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:28 ... it's just dick pics.

Dr John Delony 4:30 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:30 It's like, "Yeah, I know, I know." Right. Like, "Fucking, it's the boys." Like, as opposed to, "Oh, I hope she doesn't open that message on- That's it.

Dr John Delony 4:36 ... the thing, the..." Well, and- and it works in reverse. Like, you establish trust. I've got friends, literally, that, uh, we grew up on the same street in, in Houston, in Texas. Um, same street since we were zero. She doesn't get into those text threads. Like, she, she may see the thread pop up, and she knows. Or when I see something on... If I grab her phone to look at directions somewhere, and text threads come from her college roommates, I don't open it.

Chris Williamson 5:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 5:02 Right? A, 'cause I have full trust, but B, um, there's some... there's private things. But they're not secrets, right?

Chris Williamson 5:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 5:12 And, and she could, and... (laughs) You know what I mean? But like...

Chris Williamson 5:15 Have you seen that video? It's a, a girl driving in a car. She's in the passenger seat, and it's captioned below... This guy's presumably saying, uh, "Can I check your text messages?" And she goes... Hands him the phone. He goes, "Can I look at your social media accounts?" She goes... Hands him the phone. He says, "Can I look at your ChatGPT history?" And she throws the phone out the window.

Dr John Delony 5:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:40 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 5:40 Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's this... I want to have the benefits of a fully anchored partner, but I don't want to put all of myself on the table. I don't wanna put both feet in that boat.

Chris Williamson 5:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 5:52 And you can't have one without the other. And-

Chris Williamson 5:55 Can you explain that a bit more deeply?

Dr John Delony 5:56 Yeah. So I want the benefits of being fully seen and fully known and fully celebrated, and... But I don't want you to see all of me.... and so it's a hedge. And if you've got past traumas, you got past relationship, you got burned and all that, the hedge makes sense. But you can't hope for all of this, right? It's like, I wanna get in great shape, but I just don't wanna mess with the diet part. Like, you can do that, it's just you're not gonna see the results you want. And we blame the other person for that. It's like we're going after food companies now. We're going after the colors in the, in my Skittles or we're like... I mean, man, we're going down rabbit holes, dude. At the end of the day, if I wanna go fully into this, then I gotta go fully in. And if I don't, then I have to own that I didn't want to go fully into that.

Chris Williamson 6:42 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 6:43 You get what I'm saying? And there is some, there is blame and there's, there's pressure and yeah, I, I get that. But you have to say, "If I want the benefit of this, I gotta go all in." Which means you gotta risk getting hurt bad, man.

Chris Williamson 6:53 Because if you are not all in, there's always this thing in the back of your mind-

Dr John Delony 6:58 Always.

Chris Williamson 6:59 ... that said, "Well, you know, I wasn't rejected, because that wasn't me."

Dr John Delony 7:03 It's a hedge, man. It's a hedge.

Chris Williamson 7:03 That was just 60% me, 90% me, but 10% was on my career.

Dr John Delony 7:08 On-

Chris Williamson 7:08 10% was on my friends or 10% was on the, that, uh, orbiting backup base.

Dr John Delony 7:12 That's not how it goes. It is, 10% is you weren't trustworthy. Or, you were gonna use this against me. And so I start to weaponize the same person I'm in the boat with, right?

Chris Williamson 7:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 7:22 And when I've got a foot on the side here, I like to poke them. 'Cause, yeah, just either get in or don't get in.

Chris Williamson 7:28 Well, I think that-

Dr John Delony 7:30 A- and it goes, it goes, it... By the way, you're nuts if you meet somebody and you're like, "Hi, my name's John. Here's all my stuff." That makes you psychotic, right? But once you cross those lines and say, "Hey, this is for real. We're gonna make a run at this," or, "We're all in," or you're standing at the all-

Chris Williamson 7:43 Also, you, you can be all in at, at varying levels, right? You can-

Dr John Delony 7:48 Correct.

Chris Williamson 7:48 At the, at the very first date, it's like there is a appropriate level of disclosure at each different stage.

Dr John Delony 7:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:55 But you can max out that disclosure as you go along, as opposed to purposefully tampering that down.

Dr John Delony 8:00 Right.

Chris Williamson 8:00 So yeah, I think that there's people who are all in in relationships, and I think there's people who aren't. And the people who aren't should get together, and the people who are should get together.

Dr John Delony 8:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:09 And the problems occur when one group dates the other.

Dr John Delony 8:12 That's fantastic, huh?

Chris Williamson 8:13 You think?

Dr John Delony 8:14 Yeah, they, that's Love Island, right? Those who can't?

Chris Williamson 8:16 Correct.

Dr John Delony 8:17 Like, just go, g- go. Y'all stay there.

Chris Williamson 8:19 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 8:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:19 Y- yeah. Y- you know I was on Love Island, right?

Dr John Delony 8:21 No. No, you weren't, really?

Chris Williamson 8:23 I was the first person through the doors of season one.

Dr John Delony 8:27 No. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:27 You didn't know this?

Dr John Delony 8:27 No.

Chris Williamson 8:28 I thought that's where you got the joke from.

Dr John Delony 8:29 No.

Chris Williamson 8:30 I was the first person-

Dr John Delony 8:30 I wish I was that savvy.

Chris Williamson 8:31 ... the first person through the doors of season one.

Dr John Delony 8:33 Did you win?

Chris Williamson 8:34 No. No, I didn't.

Dr John Delony 8:35 How do you win? I've never even seen an episode.

Chris Williamson 8:37 Uh, you, it's like a vote thing toward the end. It's like popularity contest, public popularity contest-

Dr John Delony 8:42 Okay.

Chris Williamson 8:42 ... toward the end of each couple.

Dr John Delony 8:43 Is it like Big Brother?

Chris Williamson 8:44 K- yes, basically. It's couple Big Brother.

Dr John Delony 8:46 Okay, okay.

Chris Williamson 8:47 Kind of. And 24 hours a day, you're surveilled by cameras and stuff.

Dr John Delony 8:51 Man.

Chris Williamson 8:51 That was a fucking, that was a real, that was 10 years ago. 10 years ago this summer, I was on.

Dr John Delony 8:55 That would've been a way better joke if I had known that.

Chris Williamson 8:58 Well, you doubled up. You kinda did, you di- you did double.

Dr John Delony 8:58 Well, there we go. Edit this part out. I'm, no, I'm not.

Chris Williamson 9:01 But n- you're, you're, you're right, because the, eh, even within Love Island, you see that there's people in there who are a very small cohort of people, and they usually don't stay very long, that are actually in there trying to find a life partner.

Dr John Delony 9:11 Trying to find a person.

Chris Williamson 9:12 And then the rest of them are just trying to play the game. So I think this would be a great, uh, analysis for somebody to do, if, someone that's watching that's got too much time on their hands. If you can take every couple that finished the show of Love Island, UK and US, and then track how long, either how long they stay together or just basically what the attrition rate is, I guess the attrition rate for couples that finished Love Island in a couple is over 95%. I think that-

Dr John Delony 9:42 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:42 ... like, maybe one in 20 couples or less, probably, probably less than 95, like, would've been able to stick together, so.

Dr John Delony 9:52 Are there any that are still together from those original seasons?

Chris Williamson 9:56 I, I literally can't think of any. Tommy Fury and Molly-Mae were the two, like, were the, the big-

Dr John Delony 10:01 Tommy Fury the boxer?

Chris Williamson 10:02 Yeah, yeah, he, he was on as well.

Dr John Delony 10:03 Oh, okay.

Chris Williamson 10:03 It's an illustrious history in the UK.

Dr John Delony 10:05 (laughs) Man.

Chris Williamson 10:06 Um, but they-

Dr John Delony 10:07 I-

Chris Williamson 10:07 ... they separated. But now they're back together.

Dr John Delony 10:09 Okay.

Chris Williamson 10:09 So I'm in hardly a gold standard relationship.

Dr John Delony 10:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:13 Had a kid, had a kid. Kid's like t- 18 months old, separated. Got back together, public breakup, all this bullshit.

Dr John Delony 10:19 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:20 So, uh, but yeah, I, I really think-

Dr John Delony 10:22 I need to watch more TV, man.

Chris Williamson 10:23 ... there's, there's two cohorts of people. There's people who are all in in relationships, and those that aren't.

Dr John Delony 10:27 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:27 And the problem occurs when one group dates the other.

Dr John Delony 10:30 If you're dating somebody or if you were, or married to somebody, and they won't show you their phone, I would head straight to a therapist office. Because that, to me, is a huge sign. That's a huge sign. That there's some... Or maybe not to a therapist office, but at least sit at a table across from each other and say, "We gotta put this issue on the table." Because there's something going on there that that person has to feel safe with you.

Chris Williamson 10:54 Talk to me about safety. What's it mean? Why is it important?

Dr John Delony 10:59 I don't think you can have a relationship without safety and without trust. But I think safety says, "I can say what I want and put that on the table, and you'll be curious about it and you won't hurt me with it." Or it means I can say, "I'm interested in," and... It, it basically says, "I can be me and you won't weaponize me against me."

Chris Williamson 11:17 Give me an example.

Dr John Delony 11:19 Um, I am a physician, and I, I'm not, but let's say I was a physician. And my wife gets accustomed to a life. We're living a life as a, as a doctor's house. And I increasingly get frustrated with the HMO system. And I am taking yoga on the weekends, and I'm like, "Man, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna be a yoga instructor." And one day I come home and say, "Think I wanna quit medicine and I wanna do yoga," right? Safety would say, that person will instantly say, "You know what that's gonna cost me?" And somebody who is safe would say, "Tell me more about that." And we might get to a place where, "I need to go see somebody. I'm not doing well. I don't like the system. I wanna start thinking about other careers." But at least it would be met with curiosity, not with instant, "I'm gonna weaponize this against you."... you know what I'm saying?

Chris Williamson 12:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 12:12 That may be a bad analogy, but-

Chris Williamson 12:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 12:14 It is taking the things that you want, and I'll even go as far, I don't like to say this in relationships, so I'm gonna say the things I need, and I'm not gonna use that against you. Right? Um, one of the things we talked about last, like one of the things when I'm on the road, I just like my wife to call every once in a while. We just call.

Chris Williamson 12:31 She did last night. This was the funniest thing. So we're sat-

Dr John Delony 12:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:34 We- (laughs) it's so fucking funny, dude.

Dr John Delony 12:36 We call.

Chris Williamson 12:36 We're sat at dinner, and your phone goes, and you look, and it was your wife. Did you red button her, or did you just let it ring out?

Dr John Delony 12:43 Yeah, 'cause she knows I don't answer my phone when I'm in a, in a, at a meal with friends.

Chris Williamson 12:45 But did you act- you actually red buttoned her?

Dr John Delony 12:47 What does that mean?

Chris Williamson 12:47 Like, you, you canceled the call, or did you just let it ring out?

Dr John Delony 12:50 Uh, I don't remember.

Chris Williamson 12:51 I can't remember either. Anyway, so your phone-

Dr John Delony 12:52 I have been thinking about, I try not to touch my phone when I'm at dinner.

Chris Williamson 12:54 Your phone rings. You see that it's your wife. This is something that you've asked her to do-

Dr John Delony 12:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:00 ... because you like to know that she is thinking about you to the point where she'll ring you.

Dr John Delony 13:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:05 You watch (laughs) this story come up, and then she just (laughs) went back to talking.

Dr John Delony 13:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:10 That was the funniest thing.

Dr John Delony 13:11 Like, I called her right when I got in, into the car-

Chris Williamson 13:13 Yeah, of course.

Dr John Delony 13:13 ... but it, it's a, but she doesn't say when I get home, "How dare you ask me to call you. All you ever want me to do is reach out." She knows, hey, that's one way that my husband likes to feel loved when he's on the road.

Chris Williamson 13:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 13:27 Like, 'cause he gets lost in the sea of travel and whatever. And she doesn't weaponize it against me, however small that might be, right?

Chris Williamson 13:35 Why is safety so important?

Dr John Delony 13:38 I mean, that's Maslow's 101, dude. You can't, you can't fully exhale until you're safe. Whether you're safe physically, whether you're safe professionally, whether you're safe relationally, you can't exhale. I think that's a core human need. Do you agree with that or no?

Chris Williamson 13:53 Absolutely. Yeah, it...

Dr John Delony 13:55 I wish I could be more sophisticated. I think that's wired into, like, small tribes of people. Like, I have to know my tribe's with me.

Chris Williamson 14:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 14:02 Um, if your tribe gets up and leaves, and you wake up the next morning and they're gone-

Chris Williamson 14:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 14:07 ... you, you know you're not gonna live, right? I think that's wired into us at our core, core, core.

Chris Williamson 14:11 How do you think it's built in a relationship? What safety...

Dr John Delony 14:14 It's practiced. It's practiced. From the, the moment I meet you. Will you open the door for me? Are you gonna pick up the bill? Are you gonna respond when I text back? If I say, "Hey, I don't like that," are you going to when the waiter comes and says, "Nah, we're good," right? Um, it's- it's- it's built piece by piece by piece. Or, um, "Hey, text me when you get home." You don't text. Like, that's p- that's practicing safety or not practicing safety.

Chris Williamson 14:38 Mm.

Dr John Delony 14:38 And that can beget a conversation, "Hey, you didn't text me last night when you got home." I can't stand feeling like I'm confined. Like, I- I can't stand... That's, that's when you get to have a conversation about honesty and integrity. I don't like feeling like I have a chore when I get done meeting with somebody.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Mm.

Dr John Delony 14:55 Ooh. I really like when somebody calls. We can have that conversation, right?

Chris Williamson 14:59 But then you've got something in tension, which you need to navigate.

Dr John Delony 15:01 That's exactly right. Otherwise, it becomes what was that, uh, Neil Postman quote? If I don't say anything, and I-

Chris Williamson 15:07 Oh, un- unspoken expectations are premeditated resentment.

Dr John Delony 15:10 That's right.

Chris Williamson 15:10 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 15:10 If I don't say anything, and I feel like I, I feel like I got a chore every time I leave-

Chris Williamson 15:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 15:15 ... um, then I'm gonna start resenting you, right?

Chris Williamson 15:16 So does compatibility in one way between two people look a lot like what you need to feel safe and what I am prepared to do in a relationship work well together? Because you can imagine a world in which getting a text good night is a really important part when you're apart to make you feel good.

Dr John Delony 15:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:35 That's something you want. For the other person, that feels massively constricting.

Dr John Delony 15:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:39 And if you just build lots of these things up over time, one person really wants a thing. The other person cannot deliver that without it feeling like a huge sacrifice on their part. Is that what incompatibility is, or compatibility?

Dr John Delony 15:52 Yeah, but I, I still like to distill it down to a choice, right? Like, I get to choose to be, uh, inconvenienced, and I'm gonna text you, right? Or I like to choo- I, I get to choose... I, if, if it's that big of a deal, I need to go look in the mirror and ask myself, why do I feel so constricted when this person says, "Hey, will you just check in?"

Chris Williamson 16:12 Hm.

Dr John Delony 16:13 Why do I feel s- I would need to sit down with my wife if she's like, "I just can't call you at 9:00," when she goes to bed real early. Like, "I just can't call you." Like, we would need to have that conversation, right?

Chris Williamson 16:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 16:21 'Cause she would be choosing to not call. But yeah, that is compa- that's compatibility versus incompatibility. I like that. It is, I'm putting down what I want. Will you choose to do this or not do this?

Chris Williamson 16:31 Well, I mean, the super compatibility would be something like, this is something that I really want, and the other person going, "I love to give that. I absolutely love to give that," as opposed to-

Dr John Delony 16:43 Yeah, but, but that, but that switches, right? It, um... I think you have to be careful with the initial feeling of that, 'cause you hear about that all the time. Like, we loved to do this when we were dating, and now that we're married, you don't-

Chris Williamson 16:55 Hm.

Dr John Delony 16:55 ... love to do that anymore. So, I think it's continually not saying what I want to do or what I really feel like I, I, it's will that serve you? What, what will help you?

Chris Williamson 17:04 That's true. I understand, but th- there is a degree of how heavy is the weight for somebody to make that choice.

Dr John Delony 17:09 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 17:09 It's way easier...

Dr John Delony 17:10 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:10 ... for somebody to be l- like, flying with a tailwind...

Dr John Delony 17:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:13 ... than flying into a headwind-

Dr John Delony 17:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:15 ... with this stuff.

Dr John Delony 17:16 Absolutely. But I want, I want the person on the other end of that to own, own that, not to blame, right?

Chris Williamson 17:21 Mm. What's the difference though? Let's say that you've got two people who have, uh, one person really wants a thing. The other person really struggles to deliver it without it being a super heavy weight that they have to pick up. It's just not their love language or whatever it might be. Well, how does that...

Dr John Delony 17:35 I think the, I think the, the, the current cultural narrative is everything relationally that makes me uncomfortable, I have to blame you for it, for needing this or wanting this. And all I want people to do is to say, "In this relationship, I don't want to. I don't, I don't feel safe doing it. I don't like doing it. I don't wanna do it." And I want people to own that instead of lobbing the grenade over the fence.

Chris Williamson 17:57 What would lobbing the grenade over the fence be?

Dr John Delony 17:59 Coming up with sophisticated (laughs) um, dating dynamic articles and posting them in The Times. That might be one, right? Um, it might be running you down, weaponizing it against you, right? "You always, you always need, need, need me to call. You always need me to call. You always need me to call." Uh, instead of saying...... I get so tired at night, I put the kids to bed, I just crash. Like, I- I- I'm choosing that. And then we need to have that hard conversation, right? And then I can go, "She loves me. She's fallen asleep at nine o'clock. She's running the whole house with me on the road. I'm a big boy, I'll be all right."

Chris Williamson 18:28 It's another version of trust, right?

Dr John Delony 18:31 That's it.

Chris Williamson 18:31 It's another part of I don't have these weird little secrets.

Dr John Delony 18:34 That's it.

Chris Williamson 18:35 These bits of me that I feel shame around, that I'm not prepared to show you. I'm not prepared... I don't feel sufficiently safe for me to be able to say, "I get tired after I put the kids to bed."

Dr John Delony 18:45 That's it. That's it. But that's a you, that's me, that's I. I'm putting that on the table.

Chris Williamson 18:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 18:50 Versus I'm gonna perpetually blame everybody else for my discomfort. I'm gonna say, "I don't like this. I don't feel comfortable with this." Or, "I've got all these other things and I crash." You can choose to interpret that as I don't love you, but I do, I really do. And then I get to be the big boy on the other side of the table and decide what I wanna do with those feelings. But it's just about taking ownership of it, right?

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Chris Williamson 20:21 at checkout. What are some of the powerful but non-obvious ways that safety gets degraded?

Dr John Delony 20:32 I think it... I think in two ways. One, if somebody has the courage to put that on the table and the other person hears it and metabolizes it, and then I'm gonna say, chooses to not, um, it gets degraded in that way. And I think it gets degraded in big ways, like you- you sleep with somebody else, but it gets degraded often little, by little, by little, by little. Um, or the other way it gets degraded is you don't say anything and... Right? You... Uh, your partner comes in on their phone all the time, all the time, all the time. Well, they set it down and then you take the phones and you put 'em away, right? And then they go get it. Well, you didn't say, "Hey, it bugs me when you walk in and you're still, you're still carrying your work down on the phone, or you're still just swiping when you walk in the door." Instead of saying that and then dealing with what happens when you put that on the table, you try to act your way to it, right? And then it goes back to that resentment part. But trust is, I don't trust myself with you, or I don't trust... I don't... I- I'm not safe enough to put this on the table, or you're gonna take this and weaponize it, or you're just gonna disregard it.

Chris Williamson 21:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 21:32 Which is messy.

Chris Williamson 21:33 Is this related to solving for peace?

Dr John Delony 21:35 That's... Yeah. I- I- I don't wanna go to bed at night knowing I didn't say a thing. And I need to go to bed at night knowing I said that thing with somebody who wasn't gonna weaponize it against me.

Chris Williamson 21:50 Dig into the

Narrator 21:50 Also-

Dr John Delony 21:51 That's just basic honor and, and dignity, right?

Chris Williamson 21:53 S- dig into this solving for peace thing for me.

Dr John Delony 21:56 It's an... It's, it's, uh... It's probably... I'm probably pathological with it 'cause my, my whole, my whole job is talking with, like (laughs) like-

Chris Williamson 22:05 Disregula- highly disregulated people.

Dr John Delony 22:06 Well, it's that, but it's like, "Hey, man, I've got seven..." (laughs) D- this may be you, I don't know. "I've got, um..." It's, it's the Instagramification of, like, finance stuff. "I've got 17, like, uh, passive income properties that are leveraged 140% right, and I've got this, and I've got this, and I'm moving this around." And let me put it this way, here's one. I get so much grief for paying off... I think my mortgage was 3.0, maybe. Dude, I just got abused online. "What an idiot. You don't know how to do math. Like, you, you're such a fool, right? 'Cause you could have put that in a basic high yield savings account, m-" And it's like, dude, I... I... It's a sleep tax, that's what I call it. Like, I put my head on my pillow knowing nobody can take my house away.

Chris Williamson 22:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 22:53 And we don't have a psychology for that in this culture. It's all about amplification and it's all on paper money.

Chris Williamson 23:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 23:01 Versus they can't take your house, dude. And it just-

Chris Williamson 23:04 Different people will have different priorities.

Dr John Delony 23:07 Of course. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:07 Y- that-

Dr John Delony 23:08 And for, for, for me it was that, right?

Chris Williamson 23:09 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 23:09 All right.

Chris Williamson 23:09 Of course.

Dr John Delony 23:10 For me, it's that-

Chris Williamson 23:10 If you grew up... It well... It doesn't even need to be some fucking childhood ancestral trauma, this whole thing.

Dr John Delony 23:16 (laughs) That's right.

Chris Williamson 23:16 It can just be simply I have, I have a story in my mind-

Dr John Delony 23:19 That's it.

Chris Williamson 23:19 ... from somewhere.

Dr John Delony 23:20 That's it.

Chris Williamson 23:20 Maybe outside or maybe inside, that I really want... Um, I know that my dad... My, my mom and dad paid the house off maybe in their mid- their mid-50s.

Dr John Delony 23:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:29 And I- I don't think I've ever seen my dad as proud of something-

Dr John Delony 23:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:32 ... where he said, "Yeah, I'm mortgage free."

Dr John Delony 23:35 It's mine.

Chris Williamson 23:35 Totally mortgage free.

Dr John Delony 23:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they... There was no expedited bullshit like, "You're paying it off at 40 times the pace that you're supposed to-"

Dr John Delony 23:43 Right, right, right, right.

Chris Williamson 23:44 ... normally. Uh, this was chugging away on a 25-year mortgage.

Dr John Delony 23:48 Just chipping, and chipping, and shipping.

Chris Williamson 23:49 Some- some shit like that.

Dr John Delony 23:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:49 And then they get to the end of it and... Yeah. Right.

Dr John Delony 23:53 The- the... It's, it's solving for peace relationally, solving for peace financially. It's solving for, for peace professionally, right? Like, man, the, the number of folks I work with that are just... They're just melting. And I always wanna ask, like, "For what, man?" Like, "What are you... For what?" Like, "Well, you know..." Like, like... Most... I- I tried to be, uh, cute with Jordan Peterson one time, and I was like, "Nobody can answer that question for what," and he, he'd clap back in the, in the right way. He was... He said, uh...... of course, that's the hardest question to answer, it's like, "Like, for what? What do you want?"

Chris Williamson 24:25 Mm.

Dr John Delony 24:25 And yeah, I, I think it took me... It's taken me a long time to get there, but for me, my house, man. I want peace, and then we'll go from there.

Chris Williamson 24:32 Yeah. I, uh, I think that a good part of this is explained by this wonderful quote. I had, so I had Adam Lane Smith on. Have you seen him?

Dr John Delony 24:40 Oh, yeah, yeah. I know Adam.

Chris Williamson 24:41 Yeah. So Adam, I think, would be another one for the-

Dr John Delony 24:43 The attachment guy.

Chris Williamson 24:44 ... r- round, round table fucking super crazy bullshit stuff. Uh, he just had this wonderful fucking insight around complexity. So he said that your life is... Your issue in life is not that it's, uh, too busy, but that it's too complex.

Dr John Delony 25:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:04 Your system is built for hard work, uh, not for complexity. Uh, and h- his argument is that you can deal with any workload as long as it's sufficiently simple and linear enough.

Dr John Delony 25:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:14 And I kind of get the sense with the peace versus war thing too, that if there is a really, really heavy weight, but there's just one of them or two of them-

Dr John Delony 25:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:25 ... probably super easy. That's why you got two hands. Like, you-

Dr John Delony 25:27 Or if there's a purpose for it. Right? You'll carry it forever if there's a purpose for it. But complexity, yeah, that, that, that's the old... Taleb was somebody that I, I told you I got obsessed with. Taleb, when it came to complex systems. And instead of dealing with reality, we just makes it more complex, we make it more complex, and we duct tape and nail another, you know, we, we jack up this side and shove a brick under it. And it just means that when the thing does fall, which all complex systems do, it, it will just have fall, higher to fall, right?

Chris Williamson 25:57 I've got a good story about this. So I ruptured my Achilles.

Dr John Delony 26:01 Oh, no.

Chris Williamson 26:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gnarly. Uh, I'd

Dr John Delony 26:04 ... put you out.

Chris Williamson 26:05 A full 12 months. That was actually five years ago. That's interesting. I did Love Island 10 years ago, and the halfway point between then and now to the day was the day that I ruptured my Achilles. So that's, uh, an interesting arc. Uh, playing cricket, ruptured my Achilles, and this weekend, I didn't think... You know, this is during COVID. It was a brief interlude where the number had come down and everyone was able to go outside, and I was playing sport. I go into the hospital, they, um, do the diagnosis on it. They say, "You need to come back in 13 days. We're gonna open you up and stitch you back together. By the way, there's some painkillers. Go fuck off." I'd driven my car to the cricket ground. After that, I needed to go and collect a TV that I'd ordered to the supermarket so that I could put it in the new rental property I'd just bought, ready for the IKEA furniture builder guy to come in the next morning, open this stuff up. Because on the Monday, it was the viewing day. Oh, it was the first day of photos, and then people were moving in three days later, and if I didn't... This huge cathedral-sized deck of cards that I'd built. Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 27:11 And one thing... You remember when the Ever Given, you know that, uh, huge Suez max size, uh, tanker got stuck in the Suez Canal?

Chris Williamson 27:19 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr John Delony 27:21 And it was there for six days or something, and the entire global supply chain is so finely tuned-

Chris Williamson 27:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 27:28 ... that one tanker for six days in one canal is able to ruin the enti- It, it... Billions and billions of dollars of fi- They're probably still dealing with the repercussions of that in small ways now.

Chris Williamson 27:39 Mm.

Dr John Delony 27:39 It's four years later.

Chris Williamson 27:40 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 27:41 That was what my life was like, and that's what my life is always, always like. I always think if one thing, if one spanner gets thrown in the works, there is no wiggle room in the system.

Chris Williamson 27:52 Mm.

Dr John Delony 27:52 And in some ways, that allows you to maximize your time, and that's really ex- it's thrilling.

Chris Williamson 27:57 Yeah. That's it.

Dr John Delony 27:57 You're fucking squeezing everything out We're addicts. ... of ******* pool.

Chris Williamson 28:00 We're addicts to thrill, yes.

Dr John Delony 28:02 But when shit comes and h- like, you... Fuck, I didn't... I left foot so- so it was... I had an automatic car, thankfully. It was my right foot that went. I left foot drove home-

Chris Williamson 28:13 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 28:14 ... from the fucking hospital.

Chris Williamson 28:15 Which put everybody on the road at risk, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr John Delony 28:18 Correct. Correct. Correct, correct. Um, yet wild. Wild.

Chris Williamson 28:20 There, there's a, there's a... I, I believe there's a direct link between the rise in anxiousness and margin.

Dr John Delony 28:27 And?

Chris Williamson 28:28 A lack of margin.

Dr John Delony 28:29 Okay. (laughs) Financial margin, relational margin, home margin. Um, but we have such an allergy to boredom. We have such an allergy to peace.

Chris Williamson 28:39 Yep.

Dr John Delony 28:39 It's, it's, yeah. It's an allergy.

Chris Williamson 28:42 What are the most common issues that men call you about? Like, what, what do you wish more women knew about how men operated?

Dr John Delony 28:51 Man, if I had to summarize the, the male dilemma, it's, like, what did, what did, what did I do, and why don't people like me? Um, from my elementary school teachers, to my parents, to my doctors, to my schools, to my, um, dating prospects, to my, my collegiate education, to my employers, like, to the, to the media at large. Like, what did I... I don't know why everybody doesn't like me. Um, that's probably the most common question I get. Why doesn't my wife like me? What is it about me inh- that's so inherently wrong? Um, and there's a litany of, of reasons why. "You don't do this. You're too this." You fill in the blank. But, um, that's the ultimate question, is, "Why don't people like me?"

Chris Williamson 29:42 Belonging? Acceptance?

Dr John Delony 29:44 No, it's w- it's worth, man. It's worth. It's that question of worth. Um, I don't know many men, and I don't, I don't live in the red pill sphere, right? Or the-

Chris Williamson 29:55 Mm, no.

Dr John Delony 29:55 ... whatever. But, like, I don't know many men who don't want to be a net positive. I just don't know 'em. They just get the message at a very early age, "Hey, quit wiggling in class. There's something wrong with your brain. Hey, don't say that so loud. Hey, don't be so aggressive. Don't be so running around. Don't be so, don't be so you." And ultimately, that message, it becomes part of your nervous system, which you walk into every situation like, "I'm a, I'm a, I'm a burden on this room. I'm a burden on this family. I'm a burden on this workplace. I'm a burden on this culture." And-We're at the, we're- we're at the tail end of a world where men can say, "Okay, I- I'll just, I'll- I'll- I'll opt out." And then now, we're blaming you for opting out, right?

Chris Williamson 30:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 30:40 Um, and so it- it- it's- it's a privilege to be able to opt out. That- that's quickly coming to an end. But yeah, there's this idea that, um, I don't want to cause everybody around me all this pain. I'll just step out. And that's not a- that's not a good solution either. But- but think about that worth question. "I'm not worth going to the gym. I'm not worth going to see a therapist. I'm not worth going back to school to get more education to get a new job. I'm not worth any of these other... the efforts it's gonna take to, um, go do something better, to go be something different. Um, I- I'll just be quiet."

Chris Williamson 31:17 No one tried.

Dr John Delony 31:18 Like, why- why would I try? I'm not even worth the effort. And every time, I- I- I think many domesticated men, I don't know if you can say that, um, their homes are a failure factory, right? Um, "I wanna help." "Well, that's not how you do that. You need to do it like this, and you don't need to do it like that." I remember a conversation with my wife, like, about helping, and it occurred to me, oh, here's the- the- the underlying problem is I sleep just fine with a dish, with a- with a sink full of dishes. Like, I'll do the dishes when we're all out of dishes. And so she can count, like, I did the dishes five times this week. You did them once. And then she can rightfully say, "I'm doing so much more work around here." And I could say, "Oh, I didn't know that... It didn't occur to me that work needed to be done." So, we have to do the alignment stuff up- up front, but if I'm walking around all the time, I can feel when I'm a burden in my house, when I'm in the way, right? And then I start to imagine I'm in the way everywhere.

Chris Williamson 32:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 32:17 And so if we're looking at masculinity as an illness or if we're looking at men's problems as an illness, then at least be compassionate enough to treat it that way, right? You and I were talking last night, like, um, men won't share their emotions. Now there's a whole new thing, like, men are too emotional. We're the only ones who have to carry... Like, at some point, man, people are just certainly gonna say, "I'm out. I'm out." And it's, that will be the, that- that would be not a good result.

Chris Williamson 32:44 What would your advice be to women on how they can make their partners feel more worthy?

Dr John Delony 32:53 Man, it's a trope as old as time, but, um, it's Brené Brown that says, "What you go looking for in the world, you're sure to find," and I love the way she says that. Find one thing on a day-to-day basis. Dude, I made an app for that, just a day-to-day practice. Find one thing that you can see. Like, "Hey, I really see how hard you were working last night. Thank you for that." Or, "You came to bed at 10:00 instead of 2:00 AM." Like, "Man, like, you feel lighter today." Like, find one thing, begin to practice admiration, even if you gotta search for it, man. Um, but it begins to send a message, "I like you. I like you." Sometimes it's as gentle as just putting your hand on somebody's arm, right? Uh, when you're driving, instead of, "Hey, look, there's a, there's- there's red light. Look out. Stop. Slow down. We gotta go left. Why aren't you going left? Turn the radio down." Just a gentle like, "Man," or a hand behind your neck, "Man." Just something that says, "I'm glad you're here." I th- I think we over-dramatize. It's so small. It can be so small. Or thinking, "That's not how I would have emptied the dishwasher, but he's a good man." You know what I mean? Or, "I can- I can see, thank you for that."

Chris Williamson 34:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 34:04 Or, "That's not where the- the- the- the drying rack goes," or, "That's not how you pack those kids' lunches," or, "At this particular school, that school's nut-free and this one's not, and you put the granola bar in the wrong..." "Man, I'm so glad he's making lunches." And then when I'm, I've exhaled, I can say, "Quick reminder, this..." You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 34:26 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 34:26 But it's just, um, I don't know. It's just, it's just saying, "I appreciate you. I appreciate you." And then having the courage to say, "Here's- here's a better way, or here's another way."

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Chris Williamson 35:33 If you want to go on an adventure, if you want all of the things in your life to be fixed, just start telling the truth.

Dr John Delony 35:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:38 And (laughs) every time that I end up having a conversation about like relating within a couple, it just comes back to that.

Dr John Delony 35:47 Well, I- I think there's a, there's another art to it. I have to see you, and I can't see you through the lens that is my life. And I think true relationship is I'm taking off the glasses that I see the world, and I'm gonna see you. And then I'm, that's gonna allow me to practice knowing you. And if you'll, if you will see and know that person and then tell the truth, 'cause I think you can weaponize truth also, like, "I feel, I feel. You are..."

Chris Williamson 36:14 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 36:14 Um, telling the truth is, uh, let's just get there culturally. That'd be awesome, right? If we can just be honest with each other. But relationally, I have to see not the wet towels on the floor. I have to see her, and then I have to know her and know she did not put those towels there-... uh, like as a stab to the patriarchy. Like, what must have her day been like and pick up those towels? You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 36:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 36:39 'Cause if you came and stayed at my house for two weeks and you left towels on the floor, I'd just pick them up 'cause we're friends. Like, I would just pick them up and be like, "God, Chris, dude, pick up your towels." I'd just... But because she's my romantic partner, it has to be this big existential, dramatic thing.

Chris Williamson 36:52 But how much of it's compounding as well? That this is building up over time. This is the towels this week-

Dr John Delony 36:56 Yeah, you're right. It, it goes back to telling the truth.

Chris Williamson 36:58 ... the tissues last week-

Dr John Delony 36:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:59 ... the thing the week before and its unspoken expectations.

Dr John Delony 37:04 And also just pick up the towels, man. You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 37:07 Okay, so question on that. It, this sounds great, but I think a lot of people, especially that are in longer-term relationships will feel like this sounds wonderful when you're setting the tone three months in, or six months in. But-

Dr John Delony 37:22 You're always setting the tone.

Chris Williamson 37:23 ... but, uh, how do you have some sort of a breakwater if you've got a mountain-sized amount of unspoken expectations-

Dr John Delony 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:34 ... words that haven't been said, uh, premeditated resentments that you need to somehow get out and you go, "Okay, uh, you had this conversation with your wife. Like, w- this is a breakwater. We need to move forward, build something y-"

Dr John Delony 37:48 This marriage is over.

Chris Williamson 37:49 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 37:49 You're gonna build a new one, yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:50 Yeah. Uh, w- what does that look like? Someone says, "I feel like this is the sort of relationship that I want inside of the relationship that I'm in, but it's not the relationship we have, and there is a big backlog of stuff that neither of us have said to each other."

Dr John Delony 38:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:06 How does someone navigate that?

Dr John Delony 38:07 They... I think you start by writing down all the "I"s, all the stuff that I brought to that mountain. 'Cause it's really easy to go to that mountain and be like, "You've been doing this, you've been doing this." I'm gonna sit down and say, "I've become a person that I don't like inside of my own marriage, inside of my own long-term relationship, and I wanna work with you to build something new." And then you have to hope so (laughs) that they're willing to put their stuff on the table too-

Chris Williamson 38:31 Mm.

Dr John Delony 38:31 ... instead of weaponizing what you just put on the table.

Chris Williamson 38:33 Mm.

Dr John Delony 38:34 And that's a, that's a tough, scary place to be. But I think the reality is-

Chris Williamson 38:37 'Cause they're gonna say, "Well, you remember when-"

Dr John Delony 38:39 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 38:40 "... you told me that you did this thing." Like, that's a thing, right?

Dr John Delony 38:42 But here's the thing. That marriage is over. That relationship's over. When you get that mountain backlog, when you have that moment, "It ha- we have to, it has to be different," that thing's got a period at the end of it. And so you may let it run out of gas until the, the volcano explodes. It's gonna explode, right? So I can do it now with I and you can weaponize the I and then we're gonna end up in a, in a divorce court somewhere, or we can, um, just let it do its thing. But it's g- it's, it's there now, and so you might as well be a person of integrity while the thing's happening.

Chris Williamson 39:17 What about the opposite? What should men know about how women operate? What are the things that women are calling in and saying to you most frequently?

Dr John Delony 39:31 Hmm. Some of my women colleagues disagree with me on this, um, and so I'll, I'll caveat this with that. But, um, I think women were sold a bill of goods also, and the question that pops into my head is, "Why won't he change?" But I think the deeper question is, "I did all of these things that they said, and why don't I feel better about me or my world or my, the life I've constructed for myself?"

Chris Williamson 40:05 And what are the most common things that they have done that have not borne s-

Dr John Delony 40:09 I waited this many years to have kids. I waited 'til I was financially secure, I waited 'til I had a career. I waited until I was on my own two feet. I got this level of success. I... Or the opposite, I went all in on this relationship at a very young age. I went fully all in. I think the meta message has been, if you will do these things or the, the trad wife thing, or the full CEO thing, whichever one it is, that somehow you're gonna feel complete on the other end of this deal. And that feeling is elusive. It just keeps moving. And so there's a, there's a partner in your life and it's constantly, "You just need to, you just need to, you just need to." But really, the thing is, "I'm desperately seeking this feeling that this is gonna be okay, this rooted sense of anchored in."

Chris Williamson 40:53 Mm.

Dr John Delony 40:53 And, again, it's, it's a constant, constant, constant. The other one is, honestly is, um, are, (laughs) are all men scumbags? Is every man out cheating? Is every man filling up his life with video games and pornography? Is every man-

Chris Williamson 41:07 Mm.

Dr John Delony 41:08 And it's been, it's, it's harder and harder to defend when you look at the data.

Chris Williamson 41:13 And, like-

Dr John Delony 41:14 But it's, it, but it's a, it's a, it's a recursive problem, right? "I don't feel like I have any worth. I don't f- I'm... My home is a failure factory."

Chris Williamson 41:21 "These porn and video games don't reject me."

Dr John Delony 41:23 That's it. I'm just gonna... Yeah. Then I am going to take the exit ramp where I don't bother anybody, and I'll just burn a hole in my head.

Chris Williamson 41:29 I mean, dude, that sucks. It, it, it sucks to hear and it must be rough to... Uh, the least popular opinion for a guy to give on the internet with a mostly male audience is, it must be tough for a woman to navigate dating at the moment-

Dr John Delony 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:41 ... because guys see all of the ways that it's way easier for women than it is for men. Um, but the thing that I would say to guys that this is a huge, huge, like, blue ocean for them for is you have somebody that's been in counseling for, like, fucking forever and does a call-in show with millions and millions of people that watch it, and this is one of the biggest problems. Look at how low the bar is.

Dr John Delony 42:07 Dude, I tell my son that. He's 15.

Chris Williamson 42:09 Look at how low the bar is.

Dr John Delony 42:09 I tell him all the time, "You can, you, you, you can have it all."

Chris Williamson 42:13 It, uh, it really is not... And I get it. You watch enough, like, content on YouTube and you can think that because you're 5'6" or because you're not earning six figures or because you're whatever, hey, that's... Those are some real things and there's some challenges out there.

Dr John Delony 42:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:32 ... but Jesus, fuck, like how many women are calling in and saying, "You know what the problem is? These guys just don't earn enough. These guys just don't do this, that, and the other." It's like, I don't know if he's going to-

Dr John Delony 42:40 I've gotten that question zero times.

Chris Williamson 42:42 (laughs) H- okay, so ...

Dr John Delony 42:44 There's just too many short men out there. I've never got that.

Chris Williamson 42:46 To caveat this, how many women do you think are calling in and saying, uh, "This guy doesn't commit, or isn't romantic enough, or isn't whatever," as a way to hide the more base, shallow, "He's not tall enough. He doesn't earn enough"?

Dr John Delony 43:04 Maybe, maybe. And I've been called naive before. I like to just take people at their word. Like, if you're calling in, and we can get to, "Hey, that's not why you're really calling," but, um, yeah, man. I like to just, maybe, maybe.

Chris Williamson 43:17 Say it.

Dr John Delony 43:17 Yeah, maybe. And I do get called, like, "Hey, my husband's gained 150 pounds over the last few years." But as you dig into that, it's almost always, "I'm watching my husband die in front of me." Right? And that's, that's usually the question. Like, "How do I keep my... I'm watching him die and I can't be a part of this anymore."

Chris Williamson 43:34 Hmm.

Dr John Delony 43:35 And, yes, he's not attractive anymore. And, yes, he walks around in his whitey-tighties, and he's, it's like, it's not a pretty sight. But the deeper question is, I'm watching. I'm becoming someone I don't wanna be 'cause that guy at work thinks my jokes are hilarious, and I'm starting to think up jokes all day so that maybe that guy at work... Like, I'm becoming somebody I don't wanna be-

Chris Williamson 43:51 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 43:52 ... because I'm watching the person I love wither away underneath me. And I don't, I don't know how to prop him up.

Chris Williamson 43:57 Wow. Yeah, the bar is set so fucking low, dude.

Dr John Delony 44:04 It is.

Chris Williamson 44:04 It's-

Dr John Delony 44:05 But, but I, you know what? I think that's an important thing. The dating apps have screwed up everything, like, no question about all that. It's a, it's a train wreck. But personally, I've never had somebody call and say, "There's just too many short men out there." I've not had anybody call and say, "This person doesn't make this much money." I haven't got, I haven't got that call. And maybe it's, maybe it's veiled, and, and people are being s- whatever. Um, but most of the time it's, "I'm with somebody. Why won't they? Can they just stop cheating? Can they just plug back in? How do I let them know that they're worth something?"

Chris Williamson 44:42 I hear you speak to so many people about when or how they should forgive their partner after an affair.

Dr John Delony 44:47 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:49 Is that even a question that has an answer?

Dr John Delony 44:54 You know, this has come up m- a ton recently.

Chris Williamson 44:56 It's (laughs) endemic.

Dr John Delony 44:58 Um...

Chris Williamson 44:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love watching your show. It's great.

Dr John Delony 45:00 But, but, I tell you what, man, the, the place I always have people start is, "You gotta forgive yourself." Because almost every time, either they'd created a world where they were so blindsided, that there was a part of them way down that knew, "I don't know everything going on in this house," or it's the opposite, "I didn't listen to my gut. I knew they were spending too much time with so-and-so. I knew they were hiding their phone. I knew that these... I had a sense that..." And most people that experience infidelity go through a period of, "I can't trust myself. I can't... 'Cause I ignored myself, or I didn't s- even see it coming." And so, before you start trying to offer... Before you start trying to forgive somebody else, you have to forgive yourself.

Chris Williamson 45:41 So that's a huge hurdle to get over.

Dr John Delony 45:44 It's a massive hurdle.

Chris Williamson 45:45 Because you've got (laughs) to forgive two people.

Dr John Delony 45:47 The sidewalk you walk on no longer exists.

Chris Williamson 45:49 There's only two people in this relationship, and you have to forgive both of them.

Dr John Delony 45:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:52 And you have to give, forgive yourself first.

Dr John Delony 45:53 You gotta start with you first.

Chris Williamson 45:55 Why?

Dr John Delony 45:55 And it's not as though you did anything wrong. Like, that's not what the forgiveness is, but forgiveness is about reestablishing trust. I gotta learn to trust myself again. And then I gotta ask myself, "Okay, what must be true for me to reestablish trust with you?" And that's a tough... That's a tough thing. Because then you have to ask, "Well, what if, what if he or she says no?" And that's a scary proposition to find yourself. But I've also seen people experience infidelity and go on to have, build something amazing and new. And it's just, are y'all willing to put in the work?

Chris Williamson 46:25 What d'you think's the proportion of that?

Dr John Delony 46:27 I don't know. I honestly don't know, because I don't know... The n- I- it's, uh... Gosh, this is a horrific example that just popped into my mind. Um, I remember when my wife and I, whe- when she had her first miscarriage, I found myself part of a secret club that I didn't know existed. People came outta the woodwork to be like, "Yeah, us too, us too, us too." And so infidelities of- often work the same way. That... I don't know how mu- much of it goes unreported. They wouldn't fill out a survey, or wouldn't, you know...

Chris Williamson 47:01 What are some of the ways that you see infidelity showing up that isn't just about sex? You got a broader definition of infidelity than most people, I think.

Dr John Delony 47:10 I do, yeah. Um, I... It's the place where you go to hide from the life that you've co-created with somebody. So I think you can cheat on somebody with money. I think you can cheat on somebody with a golf course. I think you can cheat on s- with somebody with work. It be, who's your mistress, all right? Um, where are you putting your passion and your time, and your efforts, and your energy? And if your work isn't a means to an end that supports this thing you're co-creating with somebody else, as far as I'm concerned, that's infidelity. If I hide from my family or from my romantic partner on a golf course or on, on a fishing boat, that's infidelity. I am, I am taking my vitality and I'm channeling it elsewhere to avoid this. And that's different... Like, I like to go to punk rock shows, dude. I like to, like... I don't know. I live over in the comedy club by my house. I have passion about those things, but I'm not hiding from my family. They're hobbies. They're, they're, they enrich me so that... Every year, um, where I work, they, they throw a big battle of the bands. It's in Nashville. Like, everybody goes to Nashville to make it in the music industry, then they all have to get real jobs at some point. So every year they, they throw a big battle of the bands. One year, I had a book coming out, I was on the road, and so I was gonna skip it, and my wife said this. She said, "I get a better version of you when you're playing music with your friends." And so, it's not a matter of hiding, not doing hobbies, not, not that, but if you're hiding from, if you're numbing out with, um...... I think, I think infidelity is easily distilled down into intercourse with somebody else, and I think that's too narrow of a view.

Chris Williamson 48:46 Hmm.

Dr John Delony 48:47 It's just, it's escape.

Chris Williamson 48:50 What about financial infidelity?

Dr John Delony 48:53 Yeah, that's the way people, that's, that's the way people control their, their partners in a major way, or the way they, they hide money, um, yeah. It's devastating.

Chris Williamson 49:03 How common is that?

Dr John Delony 49:04 Oh, it's extremely common. But it goes back to the thing you asked me at the very beginning, like, uh, with if I won't share your codes. Man, the oth- the other way I get beat up on the internet all the time by the, by the internet warriors is saying, "Dude, if you're married, share a checking account." Like, that just, I-

Chris Williamson 49:21 Have you seen the difference in divorce rate between couples that do and don't-

Dr John Delony 49:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:26 ... share a savings account?

Dr John Delony 49:27 It's madness.

Chris Williamson 49:27 It's, I think it's, like, multiples-

Dr John Delony 49:31 It's-

Chris Williamson 49:31 ... of likelihood difference. And there'll be some selection effect there. There will be some selection effect.

Dr John Delony 49:36 Of course, of course, of course.

Chris Williamson 49:36 But-

Dr John Delony 49:37 But, but seriously, again, going back, if I don't f- we will share DNA, but we won't-

Chris Williamson 49:44 We won't share-

Dr John Delony 49:45 ... share-

Chris Williamson 49:45 ... a bank account or our social media logs.

Dr John Delony 49:46 You make 65 grand and I make 75 grand, we won't share that? And we have to say, like, "Well, no, that's mine." Again, it goes all the way back to trust and safety. And if I feel like I have to say, "No, no, no, that's mine," well, then we need to put that on the table and have that conversation.

Chris Williamson 50:05 I'll tell you one of the patterns that I learned from your show which I now use in my day-to-day life, and-

Dr John Delony 50:13 Uh-oh, I can't wait to hear this. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:15 It is... I, I saw you do this, I think I saw you do this twice separately, and I was like, "That seems like a pattern. I'm just gonna start maybe mentioning this if I see this come up." People partway through a relationship where one partner lightly floats the suggestion of starting to open things up just a little bit-

Dr John Delony 50:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:40 ... the number-

Dr John Delony 50:40 Open things up with another partner?

Chris Williamson 50:42 Y- yeah.

Dr John Delony 50:43 Oh, okay.

Chris Williamson 50:43 So we're still, you know, like, we've been together for however long, and I just think, you know, like, wouldn't it be... The number of times that that person has already-

Dr John Delony 50:53 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:55 ... been in-

Dr John Delony 50:55 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:55 ... an extramarital, extra partner, and they're now trying to retroactively create conditions to make the thing that they did when you hadn't agreed it agreeable so that they can continue it-

Dr John Delony 51:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:06 ... in future, and, uh, I've pattern-matched that. I'm not kidding, I've pattern-matched that incorrect, uh, correctly, like, 100% of the time.

Dr John Delony 51:14 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:14 And it's come back in to land, is someone said, "Oh, dude, like, such and such a thing has happened, and you know, she's sort of suggesting this." Like...

Dr John Delony 51:22 It's already happened.

Chris Williamson 51:22 I'm gonna tell you-

Dr John Delony 51:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:24 I'm gonna tell you something that you're really not going to w- want to hear, and I'm probably wrong. Inside, I'm like, "I'm right." (laughs)

Dr John Delony 51:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:33 "John, John said I'm right." And, uh, I- it's, it's happened a, a few times now, and each time, I've been correct.

Dr John Delony 51:37 Ah. I... Can you seek a sense of aliveness with the person you're with?

Chris Williamson 51:46 No, we need someone new.

Dr John Delony 51:48 And th- but again, if I, if I (laughs) man, if I need to go sleep with somebody else to save this... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:07 It does sound insane. It does sound insane.

Dr John Delony 52:10 I was with someone recently, they're a, they're a, uh, a comedian there in Nashville, and he said, "I've accidentally become a Dave Ramsey apologist." Like, all these young comedians now are coming up, like, "How do you do this?" And he said, "If you're trying to make art and you owe somebody money, you'll never make the art you were meant to make, because you're always gonna have to ask yourself, will this joke, the one that would be the one right over the line-"

Chris Williamson 52:33 Hmm.

Dr John Delony 52:33 "... what will my boss think? Or what will, like, I've got, I gotta hedge." And he asked me (laughs) , like, my thoughts on the death step, and I was like, "Hey, if we are arguing on ear- like, spend less than you make, we're pro- I'm, I'm probably not the guy to argue with you." Because the ma- like, it's just such a basic... If you think sleeping with her will solve your intimate relationship with the... Like, it, it's just, the, the, the math doesn't work, and I think we have so many intellectual gymnastics nowadays that we can, we can justify anything. But I think, going back to simplicity, peace, solve for peace, man. You just solve for peace. And I, I honestly don't know why we can't do that other than, um... I mean, there's the psychology of, uh, of conspiracy theories. There's the psychology of complexity. Um, I just don't think we have a psychology for boredom. Or, well, Lane says, "We step over $100 bills to pick up pennies." I'm like, "Man, just mostly eat healthy and exercise."

Chris Williamson 53:39 Mm.

Dr John Delony 53:40 "And then worry about red number 40 and (laughs) like, whatever." Like, do that later, you know what I mean? It's just a str- it's a strange place we found ourselves, and I think it's a luxury.

Chris Williamson 53:51 Well, we spoke about this.

Dr John Delony 53:52 It's a luxury.

Chris Williamson 53:53 We spoke about this over dinner last night, that there isn't a particularly good, uh, matter in the world for re-injecting excitement.

Dr John Delony 54:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:02 And there is one for increasing peace, that you say d- w- we need more commitment, we need more loyalty, we need more downtime, more regulation. You should be, uh, you know, your nervous system should be in a, in a line, all this stuff. But it's much scarier to say, "I'm bored-"

Dr John Delony 54:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:21 "... in this. This is too mundane," because it sounds an awful lot... It, it, it's perilously close to, "I want more novelty."

Dr John Delony 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:32 Which is straying, eyes lingering on somebody else, extramarital stuff.

Dr John Delony 54:37 But, but, but that's because we've made every... And we may have talked about this the last time, but we've made every sexual encounter the Super Bowl.We've made every- everything has to be this eruption, and it's insane, right? Like, you gotta see the, like... (laughs) In my world, you gotta see the relief when I tell, uh, parents who have two kids under the age of three, like, "Hey, you- you're going to have 13 minutes to get this done."

Chris Williamson 55:03 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 55:05 And they'll look at each other and be like, f- like... Nobody talks about survival sex with a young couple.

Chris Williamson 55:10 Survival sex.

Dr John Delony 55:11 Dude, we got 13 minutes between that nap and this feeding. Are you in, right? That's- that's- that's in no movie, that's in no TV show. In fact, they'll tell you, "If that's what it's reduced to, then your marriage has probably run its course. This relationship's probably over."

Chris Williamson 55:24 As opposed to just a practical reality?

Dr John Delony 55:27 Yes, just traffic and reality, man. Traffic and peace.

Chris Williamson 55:31 Your- your air traffic control.

Dr John Delony 55:32 And- and by the way, you can create novelty in this funny little moment. We can create play and laughter and silliness and... You want to give this a shot? All right, we got six minutes left. Are you in? Like, you can, while you're on vacation with your family at a- at a- at a cheap hotel while they're asleep, y'all can try to figure it out in the hotel bathroom that you can barely turn around and... Like, that is tiny ways that you can inject novelty and fun and play. And that next morning when your kid's like, "I want pancakes," and you just cut eyes across the hotel room at your spouse and you're like... (laughs) Like, that becomes- that becomes good, man. It's- it's- it's- that's the good stuff. And if you try to make the fireworks show bigger every time, I just think that's a- that's a- that's how you end up overdosing, man.

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Chris Williamson 57:30 I got a bunch of guy friends that are first-time dads. Uh, one's kid is (sighs) two months old. No, less. Less. Six weeks. Uh, another is six months old, another is one year old. What is your survival kit of the most important strategies or realizations for new adults?

Dr John Delony 57:54 I may have told you this, the greatest parenting advice I ever heard in my life was from Jack Black, which is-

Chris Williamson 57:59 (laughs) No, you haven't told me this.

Dr John Delony 58:01 When he said this, I was like, "That's- that's it." That's all of my graduate school distilled into one sentence: "Don't try to make a happy, get happier." Like, and the story he went on to tell was... And again, I'm gonna bastardize it, but his son was playing in the mud with a stick or something, and he was like, "I'm... That's not my kid." Like, and- and you end up sex- six- six hours later, sugared up, exhausted, fried, you spent $300 on a thing, and then you went to this... It's like, man, "I should have just gotten a hose out and sat in the mud and got another stick." And that stuff he's gonna tell at his funeral. "Remember that time, Dad, you rolled me around in the mud?" Versus yet another... So, man, if your kids are happy, get on the floor and have fun. And then the other thing is, you have to be intentional about your relationship. And it just shifts, man. And that's okay, it's a season. It's winter, man. It's cold, put on a coat. Like, we don't stand out in the- out in the street here in December and just-

Chris Williamson 58:55 What's the shift?

Dr John Delony 58:56 ... curse the sky. You- you got new responsibilities. I heard- I had a- a grad school colleague once that he had four kids, and I was in, man, that was maybe two or three years into marriage. It was rocky, it was tough. And I was like, "I don't know how you do this." And he said this: "It's just a different kind of awesome." And he goes, "You know when you first meet somebody and you're, like, cannot sleep and it's amazing? That's awesome. And then you kind of get real serious together and you all start get... Like, that's awesome." He goes, "You get kids for us, it's just a different kind of awesome." He's like, "You can't just, you know, swipe off the kitchen table and just get after it like at 4:00 in the afternoon like you used to be able to 'cause you got kids running around. It's a different kind of awesome." And also you don't know what it's like to see your- your middle school kid run across the finish line and just feel kind of big, right? Um, or I watched my daughter, she's nine, out at a- at a lemonade stand on a Saturday. But dude, it was hot. And I was like, "Man, drive by and buy some lim-" You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 59:49 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 59:49 I was like rooting for her from the... You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 59:52 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 59:52 My neighbor texted, I'm like, "Dude, go. Like, I'll reimburse you, bro." And he's like, "No, we got this." But it's like, I want her to succeed. It's like- Mm. ... it's a different kind of awesome.

Chris Williamson 1:00:00 Mmm.

Dr John Delony 1:00:01 But it's trying to drag that old relationship, that old freedom, the old excitement into this present thing, that's what kills folks, man. So that when you have baby one, that marriage is over. It's over. Awesome. Build a new one. When my wife got pregnant, I was like, "Okay, I got nine months till I get my wife back." And then when Hank was born, I was like, "All right, so it's- maybe it's going to be nine more after this." Like, in a year, then slowly... It took me for- it took me 15 years to realize that marriage was over, and it was awesome.

Chris Williamson 1:00:27 Mmm.

Dr John Delony 1:00:28 And now we get to build a new one with a kid involved.

Chris Williamson 1:00:30 Does that suggest that people who are together and intending on becoming parents and aren't yet at the point where they're about to should lean in and make the most of that time? Because you're not... It's-

Dr John Delony 1:00:40 It's that kind of awesome. It's finite, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:42 Yeah, yeah.

Dr John Delony 1:00:43 And if you are constantly comparing it to this and this, it's- it's like, um...... like, if I have a- I'm not going to measure from here to the end of that wall in gallons. Those are both valid measurements, it's just the wrong measure. And so that time we were together, before we had kids and before they took all our money and our time and our bodies and our exhaustion, but it was amazing. And now, we're going to measure this new time in our life in gallons, and we're going to measure this one in meters. We're going to measure this time in our life in, in hours, right? Those are all good measurements, you just got to use the right measurement for the right season.

Chris Williamson 1:01:16 You mentioned before about, um, instinct versus rationality-

Dr John Delony 1:01:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:20 ... gut or head or heart.

Dr John Delony 1:01:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:24 How do you come to think about making decisions in a relationship when it comes to gut versus head? How do you sort of stress test each of these?

Dr John Delony 1:01:34 I've just come to learn with, this is N equals one here, I, I get over-emotional about things and I make very emotional decisions. And so I've got a few people in my life, both professionally and long-term buddies, long-term men in my life that I will sit down with and say, "Here's what I'm experiencing, and here's what I'm seeing, here's what I'm about to do." And I, I mean, I wish I had a better way, better answer for you, but I outsource that 'cause I'm not a reliable, I'm not a reliable person in, in the thick of it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 1:02:01 And I just learned that about myself. I make up really remarkable stories about why somebody else is... My fundamental attribution error is, is brutal, dude.

Chris Williamson 1:02:11 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 1:02:11 The stories I make up are extraordinary.

Chris Williamson 1:02:13 (laughs)

Dr John Delony 1:02:15 About the dude in the square Kia that, like, cut me off, the story I make up about that guy, dude, it's, it's a, it's an abomination. So I outsource it 'cause I'm not a good judge of it. And I think anyone who says, "Go with all your feelings," or, "Go with all fact," both of them are, those are pathologies on either side of the bell curve.

Chris Williamson 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 1:02:36 How do you handle it?

Chris Williamson 1:02:37 Uh, I tend to be too head dominant.

Dr John Delony 1:02:40 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 Yeah. So I need to actually listen to my gut much more. Uh, my-

Dr John Delony 1:02:45 Is that a learned response? Has your gut led you astray or was listening to how you feel about stuff not, not attended to?

Chris Williamson 1:02:55 It's definitely not encouraged.

Dr John Delony 1:02:55 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 Uh, so, uh, everything would be sort of controlled, um, very important to have a measured response, hyper-vigilance, that kind of thing.

Dr John Delony 1:03:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:07 So, yeah, learning to actually trust instincts and to know how, what's an appropriate threshold for something that isn't your rational brain to be screaming to go do this thing or to not do this thing?

Dr John Delony 1:03:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:20 You go, "Well, that's pretty loud, but is it loud enough?"

Dr John Delony 1:03:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:23 And, uh, that's where it comes back to the trust thing, like self-trust.

Dr John Delony 1:03:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:27 It's a very interesting situation to get into. I wonder how much of that, (clears throat) you know, is born out... I think a lot of my friends have this too, that we're all trying to now listen to the fleeting thoughts that are coming up from our gut-

Dr John Delony 1:03:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:40 ... as opposed to the really loud, sophisticated ones that are coming down from our head.

Dr John Delony 1:03:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:45 Because my adult awakening was built around Farnam Street Blog-

Dr John Delony 1:03:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 ... and mental models and Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger and-

Dr John Delony 1:03:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 ... Taleb and Robert Green and so much... And Peterson, and so much of this is, uh, dictating top-down, like, rote learning-

Dr John Delony 1:04:06 Ah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:07 ... the ways to operate-

Dr John Delony 1:04:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 ... that are trying to compensate for the fact that you never actually allowed that to emerge in the first place.

Dr John Delony 1:04:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:14 But that's just more top-down, right?

Dr John Delony 1:04:16 (laughs) Right, right, right, right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:17 Just top, top-down, now in a, in the right direction.

Dr John Delony 1:04:18 Gotcha.

Chris Williamson 1:04:19 Hopefully, it's one that's a little bit more aligned.

Dr John Delony 1:04:21 Gotcha.

Chris Williamson 1:04:21 But it's still not just allowing yourself to sit with, "I, I, I don't think this is working."

Dr John Delony 1:04:27 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:27 Or, "I think that that's a really fucking good idea."

Dr John Delony 1:04:30 Okay, so let me try out a hypothesis. I think we do not have a, a cultural psychology, we don't have a roadmap for grief. And grief is a communal experience, and we've extracted all of that. Uh, the great David Kessler, I think he's just the grief guru, but says that grief demands a witness, and I don't think we have a witness anymore. And so we, we distill grief into sad, and then we go on and try to solve sad.

Chris Williamson 1:04:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 1:04:59 And we pathologize sad, but I don't think we have a cultural under... I don't, I, I struggle with just, like, I went all in on this thing and it didn't work. And I'm supposed to want to stay under my covers for a few days and not crush and grind. And I'm supposed to just want to mainline whatever fat or sugary or salty substance is around. Like, there's some basic biological mechanisms for dealing with grief. We used to have a parlor in our house. That was the, that, and we changed it to the living room. But we had a parlor where they held bodies until we outsourced that to funeral professionals, right? Like, we have no ability to sit with, "This ended," and I think that's, that's unhealthy.

Chris Williamson 1:05:42 What do people want to hear? A situation like that, there's been a, a loss.

Dr John Delony 1:05:47 Nothing.

Chris Williamson 1:05:47 Large or small.

Dr John Delony 1:05:48 Presence. That's my lived experience sitting with people who have lost children, uh, which I can't think of a worse, a worse loss. Um, makes me wonder how, like, how AI is gonna take over everything. There's a biology to presence, and it is not found in an answer. It is found in a guy coming and sitting by you and bringing half a casserole or a bag of taco bell and a couple of drinks, like, "I'll be here." And anybody who tries to come up with a bunch... There's, there's, in the, in the grief world, there's a whole bunch of things to, to not say. Um, there's-

Chris Williamson 1:06:25 What are the things to not say?

Dr John Delony 1:06:27 "God needed another angel. Everything happens for a reason." Like, nonsense like that.

Chris Williamson 1:06:31 Okay.

Dr John Delony 1:06:31 It's just like a knife in your soul, right? Um, but just, "I'm coming over."

Chris Williamson 1:06:38 Uh-

Dr John Delony 1:06:38 Or, or the worst, the worst text, uh, "Let me know if you need anything." "Well, my kid died. I need a whole lot..." Right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:43 (laughs) Of course.

Dr John Delony 1:06:44 Which I'm gonna put the burden on you to, "Let me know how I can take care of you," right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:48 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 1:06:48 It's, "No, I'm just coming over."

Chris Williamson 1:06:49 Also just showing up-

Dr John Delony 1:06:50 "I'm coming over."

Chris Williamson 1:06:50 ... with some shit tacos.

Dr John Delony 1:06:51 "I'm coming over and I'll sit here. We may throw all those tacos away, I'll be right here." And there's something...It's, it's biology. It's presence, yeah. Which is like, "Hey, me and my wife are going through a rough time." "I'm coming over, dude. I don't have any answers for you. I'll listen to you," right? And that's being comfortable enough. I ... In this new job, I've just decided I'm gonna stop trying to answer questions I'm not asked. I'll just, I'll just be here. You know what I mean? Which I've had to wrestle with, 'cause my purpose was always like, "Give him an answer!" Um, nah, now my purpose is, I'll, I'll show up. I'll come.

Chris Williamson 1:07:29 There's a kind of a bit of a narcissism in that too. I'm aware that it's a lovely thing to do, you're there for your friend, but there is a little bit of a narcissism because it centralizes you as the helper in the person's situation. Like-

Dr John Delony 1:07:43 A- as a presence or as with words?

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 W- yeah, when you're coming up with a solution.

Dr John Delony 1:07:46 Oh.

Chris Williamson 1:07:46 "I know that this is your problem, but allow me ..." Or you could, "No, no, no, no, no. I, I will step down from on high-"

Dr John Delony 1:07:52 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:07:52 "... and allow me to bestow on you-"

Dr John Delony 1:07:53 Well, i- it uses a hurting person. It- it ... They become a Xanax for you. "I'm uncomfortable with your loss..." Ask anybody who's, who's been diagnosed with cancer. They spend most of their energy making sure the people around them are okay.

Chris Williamson 1:08:05 Wow.

Dr John Delony 1:08:05 And that's madness, right? Because now I'm uncomfortable 'cause I'm staring at, um-

Chris Williamson 1:08:10 "My discomfort is making you uncomfortable. I'm sorry. I'll fix it."

Dr John Delony 1:08:13 (laughs) That's right. Yeah. Like, "Hey, I just got diagnosed with cancer. I'll be right over." Just gonna sit here.

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 "I just got diagnosed with cancer. Sorry."

Dr John Delony 1:08:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:23 Like-

Dr John Delony 1:08:23 "Let me know if I can do anything. So cool. I just gave you a chore. Now that you got this, this terrible diagnosis, I gave you a chore to make me feel better."

Chris Williamson 1:08:31 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 1:08:31 Yeah. So well, m- if ... Man, if I could tell anybody, if somebody's hurting, just show up. Or if somebody says, "Hey, I need to go grab something to eat," I'll be there, right? And I just learned that from a group of West Texas, like, no therapists, man. It was just West Texas guys that I saw almost come to blows over who was gonna pick up the check. And it's like, oh, that's what friendship looks like. Like, not like, "Bro, you Venmo me 425 for that." No, dude, I got it. I got it. We'll figure it out later. There's just something about that, man. And it, I think even, you know, talk about like Perkins has written about like ... But again, all that's all for peace, man. It's all for peace.

Chris Williamson 1:09:12 There's a big difference between an abundance mindset and a scarcity mindset, and I don't think you need to get into Rhonda Byrne The Secret woo energy attraction territory.

Dr John Delony 1:09:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:22 To just kind of understand that going through life assuming that things will go okay-

Dr John Delony 1:09:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:29 ... is just a better way to exist. Bill Burr's got this wonderful bit where he says, uh, uh, "Things are going to be fine, and even if things aren't going to be fine, is it not better to assume that things are going to be fine? And if they're not, you'll deal with it when the time comes?"

Dr John Delony 1:09:44 Yeah. That's Amos Tversky, he's Daniel Kahneman's research partner, had that great line like, "Being pessimistic is stupid, 'cause if it comes true, you experience it twice." I love that.

Chris Williamson 1:09:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 1:09:54 Yeah, man.

Chris Williamson 1:09:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 1:09:55 Let's just assume it's gonna work out, and I'm gonna do the best I possibly can, and if it doesn't, if ... Like we, if we get hit by a meteorite, we'll deal with that then.

Chris Williamson 1:10:02 Yeah.

Dr John Delony 1:10:03 But I'm gonna, we're gonna plow ahead as though. But I think we try to hedge grief 'cause we don't know what to do if it actually comes true.

Chris Williamson 1:10:09 Because it's such an overwhelming emotion.

Dr John Delony 1:10:10 Mm-hmm. And we have no ... We're not designed to handle grief alone, and we don't have anybody else to call.

Chris Williamson 1:10:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr John Delony 1:10:16 Which-

Chris Williamson 1:10:17 And the people that we do call, we feel like we need to manage their-

Dr John Delony 1:10:19 We end up having to take care of them.

Chris Williamson 1:10:20 ... rem- make them feel sorry that I'm a burden.

Dr John Delony 1:10:21 Right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:23 There's a great piece in The Kardashians that Charlie Hooper broke down, which was, uh, one of the girls has gone through a breakup, and the mum is there, and they're talking, and the mum says the line, "I really need you to get over this." And it's the, the ... Charlie explains it perfectly, and he's like, "That literally says your discomfort is making me uncomfortable."

Dr John Delony 1:10:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:10:49 "I need you to sort yourself so that I can be okay." And it's coming from the mum.

Dr John Delony 1:10:52 I don't have time for your discomfort, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:54 Oh, that's tough-

Dr John Delony 1:10:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:55 ... as a kid to feel. That is fucking rough.

Dr John Delony 1:10:58 Yeah. But I think parents, like, sometimes ... What ... Going back to what you said about your buddies having young kids, never lie to your kids. A buddy of mine, uh ... And here- here's what I mean by that, not just on big stuff. A buddy of mine, um, he had a neighbor whose boat fell off the trailer, and so he called all these neighborhood guys to come over and help put the boat back on the trailer. And he's, he had a young son, maybe seven or eight, and he's like, "Come on over, we're gonna go do something." All these guys help, "Three, two," and they got the boat back on the trailer and they did all the stuff. On the way home, he said, "Man, we helped that guy out." And he said, "Daddy, I didn't do anything." And already he knew. Like, I just lied to my kid. Like, I was using the proverbial "we" and I kept moving him out of the way. "Hold on, back up, back up. We're gonna pick this thing up." And so, don't lie to your kids, man. If they come in seventh place, don't say, "Great job." Or don't say, "Man, you did so good." You got seventh place. Your kid knows you're lying. Say, "Man, that really stinks that you gave it your all and you got seventh place." Or if they didn't give it your all, you can ask 'em, like-

Chris Williamson 1:12:02 Mm.

Dr John Delony 1:12:02 ... "Do you feel good about your performance on that one?" Um, but it's telling your kids the truth. But it's ... Man. Yeah.

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