Modern WisdomThe Blueprint for Better Relationships & a Peaceful Life - Dr John Delony
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,162 words- 0:00 – 10:53
Should Your Spouse Know Your Passwords?
- CWChris Williamson
"If you are married, your spouse should have all of the codes to your phones, email accounts, and social media accounts, and you should have theirs, period. If your spouse isn't trustworthy or safe, you need to head directly into this challenge ASAP. You are worthy of safety and peace. If you are hiding things from your spouse, let today be your independence day from secret shame and fear. You are worth finally taking a full deep breath." Hmm. How did people respond to that?
- JDDr John Delony
Not well, man. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Let's go!
- JDDr John Delony
Not well, dude. Not well at all. The, the idea that, um... privacy and secrecy are the same thing. They've been conflated, and I think it's madness. I think it's madness. If you will create a human with somebody, but you won't give them the code to your phone, I can't think of anything more insane. That's insane.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a lot of dissonance going on there.
- JDDr John Delony
N- it's not... Dissonance is, like, a kind way to say it. It's, it's madness. It's madness.
- CWChris Williamson
That is wild.
- JDDr John Delony
Um, yeah. The, the number of folks that call into my show that are like, "Hey, I, I can't... I'm not gonna give her my phone," and it's like, "Why?" Like, "What is on that thing?" And it's like, "Well, it's mine." It's like, "Well, what's so... What, what are you hiding," right? And I think every, every major pathology ends up... Secrets fuel that, right? It's gasoline for pathology. And so, man, if you can't have a place in your life with the person you ride or die with, that you can say, like, "W- can you, can you check o- out my phone to get this picture off my phone?" If that gives... If that causes you pause, or worse, if your partner won't do that, yeah, man. You gotta, you gotta have that conversation, like, now. Yeah. Why does that sound crazy? Does that sound crazy?
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think so. I think it-
- JDDr John Delony
I'm an old married man, so may- maybe it doesn't occur to-
- CWChris Williamson
It would've, it would've done to me 10 years ago, but that's because there was loads of shit on my phone that I didn't want my girlfriend to see.
- JDDr John Delony
That's it. That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
Whereas now, I don't care. I don't... There's nothing on there that I need to be worried about.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so... (sighs) I, I... What blows my mind is that conflation, that privacy issue, that b- privacy versus honesty thing.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah. So people... So my wife's a coach, and I work in mental health, right? So people are flying in all the time to stay at our house for a few days, and then... Or we'll go out into the country where I've got a place, and people will stay. I'll tell my wife, "Hey, I'm going out. Someone's coming in." So that's private, but it's not a s- I'm not, I'm not saying like, "Hey," uh, right (laughs) I'm, "I'm gonna go run an errand," right? And so, uh... And she, she has clients, right? But the idea that... I don't know. I think they're conflated, and I think that's madness. I think it's madness.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's... One interesting thing is the openness to give your partner your devices and email accounts and messages and social media and all that sort of stuff actually acts a little bit like a, a guardrail for your behavior as well. You know? Like, there's always-
- JDDr John Delony
Of course, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
... there's always stuff that's kind of-
- JDDr John Delony
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
... ambiguous-
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... y- d- s- some chick replies to your Instagram story.
- JDDr John Delony
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Or somebody from your past that i- is associated with a- an ex or party or whatever. Like, it... You know. There's a, a million ways that this could go. Your behavior with that person can be the beginning of a l- just a little bit-
- JDDr John Delony
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... a little sort of fissure or a crack, um... I got a ton of stick for saying that, uh, if guys want to remain loyal to their partner, but they've struggled to keep their dick in their pants in the past, it's a bad idea for them to go out to a nightclub and drink with their friends until 3:00 in the morning. And the implication... It was... Both people didn't like that.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
On one side, the guys didn't like it, because it felt controlling, and the girls didn't like it because it sounded like the guys were, uh, only loyal due to a lack of options. And like, look, if you're a mild version of a guy that likes cocaine but is trying to quit, being in a house with no cocaine is a fucking wonderful solution to that.
- JDDr John Delony
Right.
- 10:53 – 20:21
Why is Safety So Important in Relationships?
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about safety. What's it mean? Why is it important?
- JDDr John Delony
I don't think you can have a relationship without safety and without trust. But I think safety says, "I can say what I want and put that on the table, and you'll be curious about it and you won't hurt me with it." Or it means I can say, "I'm interested in," and... It, it basically says, "I can be me and you won't weaponize me against me."
- CWChris Williamson
Give me an example.
- JDDr John Delony
Um, I am a physician, and I, I'm not, but let's say I was a physician. And my wife gets accustomed to a life. We're living a life as a, as a doctor's house. And I increasingly get frustrated with the HMO system. And I am taking yoga on the weekends, and I'm like, "Man, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna be a yoga instructor." And one day I come home and say, "Think I wanna quit medicine and I wanna do yoga," right? Safety would say, that person will instantly say, "You know what that's gonna cost me?" And somebody who is safe would say, "Tell me more about that." And we might get to a place where, "I need to go see somebody. I'm not doing well. I don't like the system. I wanna start thinking about other careers." But at least it would be met with curiosity, not with instant, "I'm gonna weaponize this against you."... you know what I'm saying?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
That may be a bad analogy, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
It is taking the things that you want, and I'll even go as far, I don't like to say this in relationships, so I'm gonna say the things I need, and I'm not gonna use that against you. Right? Um, one of the things we talked about last, like one of the things when I'm on the road, I just like my wife to call every once in a while. We just call.
- CWChris Williamson
She did last night. This was the funniest thing. So we're sat-
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
We- (laughs) it's so fucking funny, dude.
- JDDr John Delony
We call.
- CWChris Williamson
We're sat at dinner, and your phone goes, and you look, and it was your wife. Did you red button her, or did you just let it ring out?
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah, 'cause she knows I don't answer my phone when I'm in a, in a, at a meal with friends.
- CWChris Williamson
But did you act- you actually red buttoned her?
- JDDr John Delony
What does that mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you, you canceled the call, or did you just let it ring out?
- JDDr John Delony
Uh, I don't remember.
- CWChris Williamson
I can't remember either. Anyway, so your phone-
- JDDr John Delony
I have been thinking about, I try not to touch my phone when I'm at dinner.
- CWChris Williamson
Your phone rings. You see that it's your wife. This is something that you've asked her to do-
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because you like to know that she is thinking about you to the point where she'll ring you.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You watch (laughs) this story come up, and then she just (laughs) went back to talking.
- JDDr John Delony
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That was the funniest thing.
- JDDr John Delony
Like, I called her right when I got in, into the car-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, of course.
- JDDr John Delony
... but it, it's a, but she doesn't say when I get home, "How dare you ask me to call you. All you ever want me to do is reach out." She knows, hey, that's one way that my husband likes to feel loved when he's on the road.
- 20:21 – 28:42
How Can We Solve for Peace?
- CWChris Williamson
at checkout. What are some of the powerful but non-obvious ways that safety gets degraded?
- JDDr John Delony
I think it... I think in two ways. One, if somebody has the courage to put that on the table and the other person hears it and metabolizes it, and then I'm gonna say, chooses to not, um, it gets degraded in that way. And I think it gets degraded in big ways, like you- you sleep with somebody else, but it gets degraded often little, by little, by little, by little. Um, or the other way it gets degraded is you don't say anything and... Right? You... Uh, your partner comes in on their phone all the time, all the time, all the time. Well, they set it down and then you take the phones and you put 'em away, right? And then they go get it. Well, you didn't say, "Hey, it bugs me when you walk in and you're still, you're still carrying your work down on the phone, or you're still just swiping when you walk in the door." Instead of saying that and then dealing with what happens when you put that on the table, you try to act your way to it, right? And then it goes back to that resentment part. But trust is, I don't trust myself with you, or I don't trust... I don't... I- I'm not safe enough to put this on the table, or you're gonna take this and weaponize it, or you're just gonna disregard it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Which is messy.
- CWChris Williamson
Is this related to solving for peace?
- JDDr John Delony
That's... Yeah. I- I- I don't wanna go to bed at night knowing I didn't say a thing. And I need to go to bed at night knowing I said that thing with somebody who wasn't gonna weaponize it against me.
- CWChris Williamson
Dig into the
- NANarrator
Also-
- JDDr John Delony
That's just basic honor and, and dignity, right?
- CWChris Williamson
S- dig into this solving for peace thing for me.
- JDDr John Delony
It's an... It's, it's, uh... It's probably... I'm probably pathological with it 'cause my, my whole, my whole job is talking with, like (laughs) like-
- CWChris Williamson
Disregula- highly disregulated people.
- JDDr John Delony
Well, it's that, but it's like, "Hey, man, I've got seven..." (laughs) D- this may be you, I don't know. "I've got, um..." It's, it's the Instagramification of, like, finance stuff. "I've got 17, like, uh, passive income properties that are leveraged 140% right, and I've got this, and I've got this, and I'm moving this around." And let me put it this way, here's one. I get so much grief for paying off... I think my mortgage was 3.0, maybe. Dude, I just got abused online. "What an idiot. You don't know how to do math. Like, you, you're such a fool, right? 'Cause you could have put that in a basic high yield savings account, m-" And it's like, dude, I... I... It's a sleep tax, that's what I call it. Like, I put my head on my pillow knowing nobody can take my house away.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
And we don't have a psychology for that in this culture. It's all about amplification and it's all on paper money.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Versus they can't take your house, dude. And it just-
- CWChris Williamson
Different people will have different priorities.
- JDDr John Delony
Of course. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Y- that-
- JDDr John Delony
And for, for, for me it was that, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JDDr John Delony
All right.
- CWChris Williamson
Of course.
- JDDr John Delony
For me, it's that-
- CWChris Williamson
If you grew up... It well... It doesn't even need to be some fucking childhood ancestral trauma, this whole thing.
- JDDr John Delony
(laughs) That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
It can just be simply I have, I have a story in my mind-
- JDDr John Delony
That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
... from somewhere.
- 28:42 – 32:44
Why Do Men Not Feel Good Enough?
- JDDr John Delony
- CWChris Williamson
What are the most common issues that men call you about? Like, what, what do you wish more women knew about how men operated?
- JDDr John Delony
Man, if I had to summarize the, the male dilemma, it's, like, what did, what did, what did I do, and why don't people like me? Um, from my elementary school teachers, to my parents, to my doctors, to my schools, to my, um, dating prospects, to my, my collegiate education, to my employers, like, to the, to the media at large. Like, what did I... I don't know why everybody doesn't like me. Um, that's probably the most common question I get. Why doesn't my wife like me? What is it about me inh- that's so inherently wrong? Um, and there's a litany of, of reasons why. "You don't do this. You're too this." You fill in the blank. But, um, that's the ultimate question, is, "Why don't people like me?"
- CWChris Williamson
Belonging? Acceptance?
- JDDr John Delony
No, it's w- it's worth, man. It's worth. It's that question of worth. Um, I don't know many men, and I don't, I don't live in the red pill sphere, right? Or the-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm, no.
- JDDr John Delony
... whatever. But, like, I don't know many men who don't want to be a net positive. I just don't know 'em. They just get the message at a very early age, "Hey, quit wiggling in class. There's something wrong with your brain. Hey, don't say that so loud. Hey, don't be so aggressive. Don't be so running around. Don't be so, don't be so you." And ultimately, that message, it becomes part of your nervous system, which you walk into every situation like, "I'm a, I'm a, I'm a burden on this room. I'm a burden on this family. I'm a burden on this workplace. I'm a burden on this culture." And-We're at the, we're- we're at the tail end of a world where men can say, "Okay, I- I'll just, I'll- I'll- I'll opt out." And then now, we're blaming you for opting out, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Um, and so it- it- it's- it's a privilege to be able to opt out. That- that's quickly coming to an end. But yeah, there's this idea that, um, I don't want to cause everybody around me all this pain. I'll just step out. And that's not a- that's not a good solution either. But- but think about that worth question. "I'm not worth going to the gym. I'm not worth going to see a therapist. I'm not worth going back to school to get more education to get a new job. I'm not worth any of these other... the efforts it's gonna take to, um, go do something better, to go be something different. Um, I- I'll just be quiet."
- CWChris Williamson
No one tried.
- JDDr John Delony
Like, why- why would I try? I'm not even worth the effort. And every time, I- I- I think many domesticated men, I don't know if you can say that, um, their homes are a failure factory, right? Um, "I wanna help." "Well, that's not how you do that. You need to do it like this, and you don't need to do it like that." I remember a conversation with my wife, like, about helping, and it occurred to me, oh, here's the- the- the underlying problem is I sleep just fine with a dish, with a- with a sink full of dishes. Like, I'll do the dishes when we're all out of dishes. And so she can count, like, I did the dishes five times this week. You did them once. And then she can rightfully say, "I'm doing so much more work around here." And I could say, "Oh, I didn't know that... It didn't occur to me that work needed to be done." So, we have to do the alignment stuff up- up front, but if I'm walking around all the time, I can feel when I'm a burden in my house, when I'm in the way, right? And then I start to imagine I'm in the way everywhere.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
And so if we're looking at masculinity as an illness or if we're looking at men's problems as an illness, then at least be compassionate enough to treat it that way, right? You and I were talking last night, like, um, men won't share their emotions. Now there's a whole new thing, like, men are too emotional. We're the only ones who have to carry... Like, at some point, man, people are just certainly gonna say, "I'm out. I'm out." And it's, that will be the, that- that would be not a good result.
- 32:44 – 35:33
How Can Women Make Their Partners Feel More Worthy?
- JDDr John Delony
- CWChris Williamson
What would your advice be to women on how they can make their partners feel more worthy?
- JDDr John Delony
Man, it's a trope as old as time, but, um, it's Brené Brown that says, "What you go looking for in the world, you're sure to find," and I love the way she says that. Find one thing on a day-to-day basis. Dude, I made an app for that, just a day-to-day practice. Find one thing that you can see. Like, "Hey, I really see how hard you were working last night. Thank you for that." Or, "You came to bed at 10:00 instead of 2:00 AM." Like, "Man, like, you feel lighter today." Like, find one thing, begin to practice admiration, even if you gotta search for it, man. Um, but it begins to send a message, "I like you. I like you." Sometimes it's as gentle as just putting your hand on somebody's arm, right? Uh, when you're driving, instead of, "Hey, look, there's a, there's- there's red light. Look out. Stop. Slow down. We gotta go left. Why aren't you going left? Turn the radio down." Just a gentle like, "Man," or a hand behind your neck, "Man." Just something that says, "I'm glad you're here." I th- I think we over-dramatize. It's so small. It can be so small. Or thinking, "That's not how I would have emptied the dishwasher, but he's a good man." You know what I mean? Or, "I can- I can see, thank you for that."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Or, "That's not where the- the- the- the drying rack goes," or, "That's not how you pack those kids' lunches," or, "At this particular school, that school's nut-free and this one's not, and you put the granola bar in the wrong..." "Man, I'm so glad he's making lunches." And then when I'm, I've exhaled, I can say, "Quick reminder, this..." You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JDDr John Delony
But it's just, um, I don't know. It's just, it's just saying, "I appreciate you. I appreciate you." And then having the courage to say, "Here's- here's a better way, or here's another way."
- CWChris Williamson
Before we continue, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function, because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians to take the data, put it in a simple dashboard, and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels, your thyroid function, and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only $500. And right now, the first 1,000 people can get an additional $100 off, meaning it's only 400 bucks. To get the exact same blood panel that I use, just go to the link in the description below, or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
- 35:33 – 39:16
Using Truth and Accountability to Build a New Relationship
- CWChris Williamson
If you want to go on an adventure, if you want all of the things in your life to be fixed, just start telling the truth.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And (laughs) every time that I end up having a conversation about like relating within a couple, it just comes back to that.
- JDDr John Delony
Well, I- I think there's a, there's another art to it. I have to see you, and I can't see you through the lens that is my life. And I think true relationship is I'm taking off the glasses that I see the world, and I'm gonna see you. And then I'm, that's gonna allow me to practice knowing you. And if you'll, if you will see and know that person and then tell the truth, 'cause I think you can weaponize truth also, like, "I feel, I feel. You are..."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Um, telling the truth is, uh, let's just get there culturally. That'd be awesome, right? If we can just be honest with each other. But relationally, I have to see not the wet towels on the floor. I have to see her, and then I have to know her and know she did not put those towels there-... uh, like as a stab to the patriarchy. Like, what must have her day been like and pick up those towels? You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
'Cause if you came and stayed at my house for two weeks and you left towels on the floor, I'd just pick them up 'cause we're friends. Like, I would just pick them up and be like, "God, Chris, dude, pick up your towels." I'd just... But because she's my romantic partner, it has to be this big existential, dramatic thing.
- CWChris Williamson
But how much of it's compounding as well? That this is building up over time. This is the towels this week-
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah, you're right. It, it goes back to telling the truth.
- CWChris Williamson
... the tissues last week-
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the thing the week before and its unspoken expectations.
- JDDr John Delony
And also just pick up the towels, man. You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so question on that. It, this sounds great, but I think a lot of people, especially that are in longer-term relationships will feel like this sounds wonderful when you're setting the tone three months in, or six months in. But-
- JDDr John Delony
You're always setting the tone.
- CWChris Williamson
... but, uh, how do you have some sort of a breakwater if you've got a mountain-sized amount of unspoken expectations-
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... words that haven't been said, uh, premeditated resentments that you need to somehow get out and you go, "Okay, uh, you had this conversation with your wife. Like, w- this is a breakwater. We need to move forward, build something y-"
- JDDr John Delony
This marriage is over.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JDDr John Delony
You're gonna build a new one, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, w- what does that look like? Someone says, "I feel like this is the sort of relationship that I want inside of the relationship that I'm in, but it's not the relationship we have, and there is a big backlog of stuff that neither of us have said to each other."
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How does someone navigate that?
- JDDr John Delony
They... I think you start by writing down all the "I"s, all the stuff that I brought to that mountain. 'Cause it's really easy to go to that mountain and be like, "You've been doing this, you've been doing this." I'm gonna sit down and say, "I've become a person that I don't like inside of my own marriage, inside of my own long-term relationship, and I wanna work with you to build something new." And then you have to hope so (laughs) that they're willing to put their stuff on the table too-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JDDr John Delony
... instead of weaponizing what you just put on the table.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JDDr John Delony
And that's a, that's a tough, scary place to be. But I think the reality is-
- 39:16 – 44:41
What are the Biggest Female Dilemmas?
- CWChris Williamson
What about the opposite? What should men know about how women operate? What are the things that women are calling in and saying to you most frequently?
- JDDr John Delony
Hmm. Some of my women colleagues disagree with me on this, um, and so I'll, I'll caveat this with that. But, um, I think women were sold a bill of goods also, and the question that pops into my head is, "Why won't he change?" But I think the deeper question is, "I did all of these things that they said, and why don't I feel better about me or my world or my, the life I've constructed for myself?"
- CWChris Williamson
And what are the most common things that they have done that have not borne s-
- JDDr John Delony
I waited this many years to have kids. I waited 'til I was financially secure, I waited 'til I had a career. I waited until I was on my own two feet. I got this level of success. I... Or the opposite, I went all in on this relationship at a very young age. I went fully all in. I think the meta message has been, if you will do these things or the, the trad wife thing, or the full CEO thing, whichever one it is, that somehow you're gonna feel complete on the other end of this deal. And that feeling is elusive. It just keeps moving. And so there's a, there's a partner in your life and it's constantly, "You just need to, you just need to, you just need to." But really, the thing is, "I'm desperately seeking this feeling that this is gonna be okay, this rooted sense of anchored in."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JDDr John Delony
And, again, it's, it's a constant, constant, constant. The other one is, honestly is, um, are, (laughs) are all men scumbags? Is every man out cheating? Is every man filling up his life with video games and pornography? Is every man-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JDDr John Delony
And it's been, it's, it's harder and harder to defend when you look at the data.
- CWChris Williamson
And, like-
- JDDr John Delony
But it's, it, but it's a, it's a, it's a recursive problem, right? "I don't feel like I have any worth. I don't f- I'm... My home is a failure factory."
- CWChris Williamson
"These porn and video games don't reject me."
- JDDr John Delony
That's it. I'm just gonna... Yeah. Then I am going to take the exit ramp where I don't bother anybody, and I'll just burn a hole in my head.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, dude, that sucks. It, it, it sucks to hear and it must be rough to... Uh, the least popular opinion for a guy to give on the internet with a mostly male audience is, it must be tough for a woman to navigate dating at the moment-
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because guys see all of the ways that it's way easier for women than it is for men. Um, but the thing that I would say to guys that this is a huge, huge, like, blue ocean for them for is you have somebody that's been in counseling for, like, fucking forever and does a call-in show with millions and millions of people that watch it, and this is one of the biggest problems. Look at how low the bar is.
- JDDr John Delony
Dude, I tell my son that. He's 15.
- CWChris Williamson
Look at how low the bar is.
- JDDr John Delony
I tell him all the time, "You can, you, you, you can have it all."
- CWChris Williamson
It, uh, it really is not... And I get it. You watch enough, like, content on YouTube and you can think that because you're 5'6" or because you're not earning six figures or because you're whatever, hey, that's... Those are some real things and there's some challenges out there.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but Jesus, fuck, like how many women are calling in and saying, "You know what the problem is? These guys just don't earn enough. These guys just don't do this, that, and the other." It's like, I don't know if he's going to-
- JDDr John Delony
I've gotten that question zero times.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) H- okay, so ...
- JDDr John Delony
There's just too many short men out there. I've never got that.
- CWChris Williamson
To caveat this, how many women do you think are calling in and saying, uh, "This guy doesn't commit, or isn't romantic enough, or isn't whatever," as a way to hide the more base, shallow, "He's not tall enough. He doesn't earn enough"?
- JDDr John Delony
Maybe, maybe. And I've been called naive before. I like to just take people at their word. Like, if you're calling in, and we can get to, "Hey, that's not why you're really calling," but, um, yeah, man. I like to just, maybe, maybe.
- CWChris Williamson
Say it.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah, maybe. And I do get called, like, "Hey, my husband's gained 150 pounds over the last few years." But as you dig into that, it's almost always, "I'm watching my husband die in front of me." Right? And that's, that's usually the question. Like, "How do I keep my... I'm watching him die and I can't be a part of this anymore."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
And, yes, he's not attractive anymore. And, yes, he walks around in his whitey-tighties, and he's, it's like, it's not a pretty sight. But the deeper question is, I'm watching. I'm becoming someone I don't wanna be 'cause that guy at work thinks my jokes are hilarious, and I'm starting to think up jokes all day so that maybe that guy at work... Like, I'm becoming somebody I don't wanna be-
- 44:41 – 57:30
Can Infidelity Be Forgiven?
- JDDr John Delony
- CWChris Williamson
I hear you speak to so many people about when or how they should forgive their partner after an affair.
- JDDr John Delony
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that even a question that has an answer?
- JDDr John Delony
You know, this has come up m- a ton recently.
- CWChris Williamson
It's (laughs) endemic.
- JDDr John Delony
Um...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love watching your show. It's great.
- JDDr John Delony
But, but, I tell you what, man, the, the place I always have people start is, "You gotta forgive yourself." Because almost every time, either they'd created a world where they were so blindsided, that there was a part of them way down that knew, "I don't know everything going on in this house," or it's the opposite, "I didn't listen to my gut. I knew they were spending too much time with so-and-so. I knew they were hiding their phone. I knew that these... I had a sense that..." And most people that experience infidelity go through a period of, "I can't trust myself. I can't... 'Cause I ignored myself, or I didn't s- even see it coming." And so, before you start trying to offer... Before you start trying to forgive somebody else, you have to forgive yourself.
- CWChris Williamson
So that's a huge hurdle to get over.
- JDDr John Delony
It's a massive hurdle.
- CWChris Williamson
Because you've got (laughs) to forgive two people.
- JDDr John Delony
The sidewalk you walk on no longer exists.
- CWChris Williamson
There's only two people in this relationship, and you have to forgive both of them.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you have to give, forgive yourself first.
- JDDr John Delony
You gotta start with you first.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- JDDr John Delony
And it's not as though you did anything wrong. Like, that's not what the forgiveness is, but forgiveness is about reestablishing trust. I gotta learn to trust myself again. And then I gotta ask myself, "Okay, what must be true for me to reestablish trust with you?" And that's a tough... That's a tough thing. Because then you have to ask, "Well, what if, what if he or she says no?" And that's a scary proposition to find yourself. But I've also seen people experience infidelity and go on to have, build something amazing and new. And it's just, are y'all willing to put in the work?
- CWChris Williamson
What d'you think's the proportion of that?
- JDDr John Delony
I don't know. I honestly don't know, because I don't know... The n- I- it's, uh... Gosh, this is a horrific example that just popped into my mind. Um, I remember when my wife and I, whe- when she had her first miscarriage, I found myself part of a secret club that I didn't know existed. People came outta the woodwork to be like, "Yeah, us too, us too, us too." And so infidelities of- often work the same way. That... I don't know how mu- much of it goes unreported. They wouldn't fill out a survey, or wouldn't, you know...
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the ways that you see infidelity showing up that isn't just about sex? You got a broader definition of infidelity than most people, I think.
- JDDr John Delony
I do, yeah. Um, I... It's the place where you go to hide from the life that you've co-created with somebody. So I think you can cheat on somebody with money. I think you can cheat on somebody with a golf course. I think you can cheat on s- with somebody with work. It be, who's your mistress, all right? Um, where are you putting your passion and your time, and your efforts, and your energy? And if your work isn't a means to an end that supports this thing you're co-creating with somebody else, as far as I'm concerned, that's infidelity. If I hide from my family or from my romantic partner on a golf course or on, on a fishing boat, that's infidelity. I am, I am taking my vitality and I'm channeling it elsewhere to avoid this. And that's different... Like, I like to go to punk rock shows, dude. I like to, like... I don't know. I live over in the comedy club by my house. I have passion about those things, but I'm not hiding from my family. They're hobbies. They're, they're, they enrich me so that... Every year, um, where I work, they, they throw a big battle of the bands. It's in Nashville. Like, everybody goes to Nashville to make it in the music industry, then they all have to get real jobs at some point. So every year they, they throw a big battle of the bands. One year, I had a book coming out, I was on the road, and so I was gonna skip it, and my wife said this. She said, "I get a better version of you when you're playing music with your friends." And so, it's not a matter of hiding, not doing hobbies, not, not that, but if you're hiding from, if you're numbing out with, um...... I think, I think infidelity is easily distilled down into intercourse with somebody else, and I think that's too narrow of a view.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
It's just, it's escape.
- CWChris Williamson
What about financial infidelity?
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah, that's the way people, that's, that's the way people control their, their partners in a major way, or the way they, they hide money, um, yeah. It's devastating.
- CWChris Williamson
How common is that?
- JDDr John Delony
Oh, it's extremely common. But it goes back to the thing you asked me at the very beginning, like, uh, with if I won't share your codes. Man, the oth- the other way I get beat up on the internet all the time by the, by the internet warriors is saying, "Dude, if you're married, share a checking account." Like, that just, I-
- CWChris Williamson
Have you seen the difference in divorce rate between couples that do and don't-
- 57:30 – 1:01:16
The Greatest Parenting Advice
- CWChris Williamson
I got a bunch of guy friends that are first-time dads. Uh, one's kid is (sighs) two months old. No, less. Less. Six weeks. Uh, another is six months old, another is one year old. What is your survival kit of the most important strategies or realizations for new adults?
- JDDr John Delony
I may have told you this, the greatest parenting advice I ever heard in my life was from Jack Black, which is-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) No, you haven't told me this.
- JDDr John Delony
When he said this, I was like, "That's- that's it." That's all of my graduate school distilled into one sentence: "Don't try to make a happy, get happier." Like, and the story he went on to tell was... And again, I'm gonna bastardize it, but his son was playing in the mud with a stick or something, and he was like, "I'm... That's not my kid." Like, and- and you end up sex- six- six hours later, sugared up, exhausted, fried, you spent $300 on a thing, and then you went to this... It's like, man, "I should have just gotten a hose out and sat in the mud and got another stick." And that stuff he's gonna tell at his funeral. "Remember that time, Dad, you rolled me around in the mud?" Versus yet another... So, man, if your kids are happy, get on the floor and have fun. And then the other thing is, you have to be intentional about your relationship. And it just shifts, man. And that's okay, it's a season. It's winter, man. It's cold, put on a coat. Like, we don't stand out in the- out in the street here in December and just-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the shift?
- JDDr John Delony
... curse the sky. You- you got new responsibilities. I heard- I had a- a grad school colleague once that he had four kids, and I was in, man, that was maybe two or three years into marriage. It was rocky, it was tough. And I was like, "I don't know how you do this." And he said this: "It's just a different kind of awesome." And he goes, "You know when you first meet somebody and you're, like, cannot sleep and it's amazing? That's awesome. And then you kind of get real serious together and you all start get... Like, that's awesome." He goes, "You get kids for us, it's just a different kind of awesome." He's like, "You can't just, you know, swipe off the kitchen table and just get after it like at 4:00 in the afternoon like you used to be able to 'cause you got kids running around. It's a different kind of awesome." And also you don't know what it's like to see your- your middle school kid run across the finish line and just feel kind of big, right? Um, or I watched my daughter, she's nine, out at a- at a lemonade stand on a Saturday. But dude, it was hot. And I was like, "Man, drive by and buy some lim-" You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JDDr John Delony
I was like rooting for her from the... You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JDDr John Delony
My neighbor texted, I'm like, "Dude, go. Like, I'll reimburse you, bro." And he's like, "No, we got this." But it's like, I want her to succeed. It's like- Mm. ... it's a different kind of awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
Mmm.
- JDDr John Delony
But it's trying to drag that old relationship, that old freedom, the old excitement into this present thing, that's what kills folks, man. So that when you have baby one, that marriage is over. It's over. Awesome. Build a new one. When my wife got pregnant, I was like, "Okay, I got nine months till I get my wife back." And then when Hank was born, I was like, "All right, so it's- maybe it's going to be nine more after this." Like, in a year, then slowly... It took me for- it took me 15 years to realize that marriage was over, and it was awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
Mmm.
- JDDr John Delony
And now we get to build a new one with a kid involved.
- CWChris Williamson
Does that suggest that people who are together and intending on becoming parents and aren't yet at the point where they're about to should lean in and make the most of that time? Because you're not... It's-
- JDDr John Delony
It's that kind of awesome. It's finite, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- JDDr John Delony
And if you are constantly comparing it to this and this, it's- it's like, um...... like, if I have a- I'm not going to measure from here to the end of that wall in gallons. Those are both valid measurements, it's just the wrong measure. And so that time we were together, before we had kids and before they took all our money and our time and our bodies and our exhaustion, but it was amazing. And now, we're going to measure this new time in our life in gallons, and we're going to measure this one in meters. We're going to measure this time in our life in, in hours, right? Those are all good measurements, you just got to use the right measurement for the right season.
- 1:01:16 – 1:04:30
Making Head vs Heart Decisions in a Relationship
- JDDr John Delony
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned before about, um, instinct versus rationality-
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... gut or head or heart.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you come to think about making decisions in a relationship when it comes to gut versus head? How do you sort of stress test each of these?
- JDDr John Delony
I've just come to learn with, this is N equals one here, I, I get over-emotional about things and I make very emotional decisions. And so I've got a few people in my life, both professionally and long-term buddies, long-term men in my life that I will sit down with and say, "Here's what I'm experiencing, and here's what I'm seeing, here's what I'm about to do." And I, I mean, I wish I had a better way, better answer for you, but I outsource that 'cause I'm not a reliable, I'm not a reliable person in, in the thick of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
And I just learned that about myself. I make up really remarkable stories about why somebody else is... My fundamental attribution error is, is brutal, dude.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JDDr John Delony
The stories I make up are extraordinary.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JDDr John Delony
About the dude in the square Kia that, like, cut me off, the story I make up about that guy, dude, it's, it's a, it's an abomination. So I outsource it 'cause I'm not a good judge of it. And I think anyone who says, "Go with all your feelings," or, "Go with all fact," both of them are, those are pathologies on either side of the bell curve.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
How do you handle it?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I tend to be too head dominant.
- JDDr John Delony
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So I need to actually listen to my gut much more. Uh, my-
- JDDr John Delony
Is that a learned response? Has your gut led you astray or was listening to how you feel about stuff not, not attended to?
- CWChris Williamson
It's definitely not encouraged.
- JDDr John Delony
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so, uh, everything would be sort of controlled, um, very important to have a measured response, hyper-vigilance, that kind of thing.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, yeah, learning to actually trust instincts and to know how, what's an appropriate threshold for something that isn't your rational brain to be screaming to go do this thing or to not do this thing?
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You go, "Well, that's pretty loud, but is it loud enough?"
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, that's where it comes back to the trust thing, like self-trust.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a very interesting situation to get into. I wonder how much of that, (clears throat) you know, is born out... I think a lot of my friends have this too, that we're all trying to now listen to the fleeting thoughts that are coming up from our gut-
- 1:04:30 – 1:09:11
How to Live Through Grief
- CWChris Williamson
- JDDr John Delony
Okay, so let me try out a hypothesis. I think we do not have a, a cultural psychology, we don't have a roadmap for grief. And grief is a communal experience, and we've extracted all of that. Uh, the great David Kessler, I think he's just the grief guru, but says that grief demands a witness, and I don't think we have a witness anymore. And so we, we distill grief into sad, and then we go on and try to solve sad.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
And we pathologize sad, but I don't think we have a cultural under... I don't, I, I struggle with just, like, I went all in on this thing and it didn't work. And I'm supposed to want to stay under my covers for a few days and not crush and grind. And I'm supposed to just want to mainline whatever fat or sugary or salty substance is around. Like, there's some basic biological mechanisms for dealing with grief. We used to have a parlor in our house. That was the, that, and we changed it to the living room. But we had a parlor where they held bodies until we outsourced that to funeral professionals, right? Like, we have no ability to sit with, "This ended," and I think that's, that's unhealthy.
- CWChris Williamson
What do people want to hear? A situation like that, there's been a, a loss.
- JDDr John Delony
Nothing.
- CWChris Williamson
Large or small.
- JDDr John Delony
Presence. That's my lived experience sitting with people who have lost children, uh, which I can't think of a worse, a worse loss. Um, makes me wonder how, like, how AI is gonna take over everything. There's a biology to presence, and it is not found in an answer. It is found in a guy coming and sitting by you and bringing half a casserole or a bag of taco bell and a couple of drinks, like, "I'll be here." And anybody who tries to come up with a bunch... There's, there's, in the, in the grief world, there's a whole bunch of things to, to not say. Um, there's-
- CWChris Williamson
What are the things to not say?
- JDDr John Delony
"God needed another angel. Everything happens for a reason." Like, nonsense like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JDDr John Delony
It's just like a knife in your soul, right? Um, but just, "I'm coming over."
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-
- JDDr John Delony
Or, or the worst, the worst text, uh, "Let me know if you need anything." "Well, my kid died. I need a whole lot..." Right?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Of course.
- JDDr John Delony
Which I'm gonna put the burden on you to, "Let me know how I can take care of you," right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JDDr John Delony
It's, "No, I'm just coming over."
- CWChris Williamson
Also just showing up-
- JDDr John Delony
"I'm coming over."
- CWChris Williamson
... with some shit tacos.
- JDDr John Delony
"I'm coming over and I'll sit here. We may throw all those tacos away, I'll be right here." And there's something...It's, it's biology. It's presence, yeah. Which is like, "Hey, me and my wife are going through a rough time." "I'm coming over, dude. I don't have any answers for you. I'll listen to you," right? And that's being comfortable enough. I ... In this new job, I've just decided I'm gonna stop trying to answer questions I'm not asked. I'll just, I'll just be here. You know what I mean? Which I've had to wrestle with, 'cause my purpose was always like, "Give him an answer!" Um, nah, now my purpose is, I'll, I'll show up. I'll come.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a kind of a bit of a narcissism in that too. I'm aware that it's a lovely thing to do, you're there for your friend, but there is a little bit of a narcissism because it centralizes you as the helper in the person's situation. Like-
- JDDr John Delony
A- as a presence or as with words?
- CWChris Williamson
W- yeah, when you're coming up with a solution.
- JDDr John Delony
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
"I know that this is your problem, but allow me ..." Or you could, "No, no, no, no, no. I, I will step down from on high-"
- JDDr John Delony
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
"... and allow me to bestow on you-"
- JDDr John Delony
Well, i- it uses a hurting person. It- it ... They become a Xanax for you. "I'm uncomfortable with your loss..." Ask anybody who's, who's been diagnosed with cancer. They spend most of their energy making sure the people around them are okay.
- 1:09:11 – 1:13:19
Why Should We Live an Optimistic Life?
- JDDr John Delony
- CWChris Williamson
There's a big difference between an abundance mindset and a scarcity mindset, and I don't think you need to get into Rhonda Byrne The Secret woo energy attraction territory.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
To just kind of understand that going through life assuming that things will go okay-
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is just a better way to exist. Bill Burr's got this wonderful bit where he says, uh, uh, "Things are going to be fine, and even if things aren't going to be fine, is it not better to assume that things are going to be fine? And if they're not, you'll deal with it when the time comes?"
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah. That's Amos Tversky, he's Daniel Kahneman's research partner, had that great line like, "Being pessimistic is stupid, 'cause if it comes true, you experience it twice." I love that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Let's just assume it's gonna work out, and I'm gonna do the best I possibly can, and if it doesn't, if ... Like we, if we get hit by a meteorite, we'll deal with that then.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JDDr John Delony
But I'm gonna, we're gonna plow ahead as though. But I think we try to hedge grief 'cause we don't know what to do if it actually comes true.
- CWChris Williamson
Because it's such an overwhelming emotion.
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm. And we have no ... We're not designed to handle grief alone, and we don't have anybody else to call.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JDDr John Delony
Which-
- CWChris Williamson
And the people that we do call, we feel like we need to manage their-
- JDDr John Delony
We end up having to take care of them.
- CWChris Williamson
... rem- make them feel sorry that I'm a burden.
- JDDr John Delony
Right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a great piece in The Kardashians that Charlie Hooper broke down, which was, uh, one of the girls has gone through a breakup, and the mum is there, and they're talking, and the mum says the line, "I really need you to get over this." And it's the, the ... Charlie explains it perfectly, and he's like, "That literally says your discomfort is making me uncomfortable."
- JDDr John Delony
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"I need you to sort yourself so that I can be okay." And it's coming from the mum.
- JDDr John Delony
I don't have time for your discomfort, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's tough-
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... as a kid to feel. That is fucking rough.
- JDDr John Delony
Yeah. But I think parents, like, sometimes ... What ... Going back to what you said about your buddies having young kids, never lie to your kids. A buddy of mine, uh ... And here- here's what I mean by that, not just on big stuff. A buddy of mine, um, he had a neighbor whose boat fell off the trailer, and so he called all these neighborhood guys to come over and help put the boat back on the trailer. And he's, he had a young son, maybe seven or eight, and he's like, "Come on over, we're gonna go do something." All these guys help, "Three, two," and they got the boat back on the trailer and they did all the stuff. On the way home, he said, "Man, we helped that guy out." And he said, "Daddy, I didn't do anything." And already he knew. Like, I just lied to my kid. Like, I was using the proverbial "we" and I kept moving him out of the way. "Hold on, back up, back up. We're gonna pick this thing up." And so, don't lie to your kids, man. If they come in seventh place, don't say, "Great job." Or don't say, "Man, you did so good." You got seventh place. Your kid knows you're lying. Say, "Man, that really stinks that you gave it your all and you got seventh place." Or if they didn't give it your all, you can ask 'em, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 1:13:19 – 1:25:47
Do Kids Fix Everything?
- CWChris Williamson
How often do you see relationships where there hasn't been that sort of honest, open transparency between the partners be, uh, fixed or made worse by the presence of kids? Because I imagine that there must be some, uh, couples that have a child and it just galvanizes in them this, "Oh, we have a project. Like we need to get really, really serious now."
Episode duration: 1:48:05
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode bqsNycAhuaw
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome