The Collapse Of The West Or The Birth Of A New Era? - Douglas Murray

1. 0:00 – 9:30

   Current State Of Trump's Effort In Office

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Douglas Murray, welcome to the show.

   2. DMDouglas Murray0:02

      Very good to be back with you in your native Austin.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:04

      Ah, yes, you have. You're here for 24 hours. Salubrious.

   4. DMDouglas Murray0:08

      Wonderful.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:09

      Mm.

   6. DMDouglas Murray0:09

      Watching your success with great admiration.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:12

      Thank you.

   8. DMDouglas Murray0:13

      And great pride as well in a way, I don't know why I feel pride, but I just-

   9. CWChris Williamson0:16

      Well, you definitely contributed to it, I think, uh, managed to get you to take a dice roll, uh, many, many years ago, five years ago, six years ago.

   10. DMDouglas Murray0:23

       That's right, I think I was doing The Madness of Crowds. And you were in your, uh, place in Newcastle with the mold on the ceiling.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:28

       Wasn't mold, it was because I had-

   12. DMDouglas Murray0:31

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson0:31

       ... as I explained for a long time, it's because I had a Yankee Candle addiction, uh, which also actually is something to be embarrassed about, not quite as bad as mold. Uh, and I had to get it repainted. After our episode, the internet shamed me so much-

   14. DMDouglas Murray0:46

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson0:47

       ... that I had to get the ceiling of my old bedroom repainted, uh-

   16. DMDouglas Murray0:50

       And now you're here in Austin. And-

   17. CWChris Williamson0:52

       Look at me now.

   18. DMDouglas Murray0:52

       ... it's great to see you.

   19. CWChris Williamson0:53

       Well, uh, you too. Trump's been in office for 78 days. What do you make of his efforts so far?

   20. DMDouglas Murray1:01

       (inhales deeply) Um, uh, mixed, I think, as with anyone. Um, he got the very, very large and considerable mandate. Um, won the popular vote, made it pretty impossible for people to criticize him from the election onwards. Um, first couple of months there's been very little, I think, pushback or rallying around against him. Um, then inevitably there are things that are now happening, you may have noticed, if you keep an eye on the markets or anything like that, uh, which very much people are going for him on. Um, but yes, I mean, it's, it's kinda early days, but a mixed bag I'd say.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:46

       It, it feels like a lot's happened-

   22. DMDouglas Murray1:48

       Well, a lot has happened.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:49

       ... 78 days.

   24. DMDouglas Murray1:50

       Yes. I mean, uh, one of the things you can say, whatever your view is on Trump, you can say with certainty, and I did ahead of the election and have since, which is that he does what he says he's going to do.

   25. CWChris Williamson2:01

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DMDouglas Murray2:02

       So whether it's tariffs or foreign policy or domestic policy, border, you know, he, he, he campaigns about it and then he does it, tries to do it.

   27. CWChris Williamson2:14

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDouglas Murray2:14

       And, um, I am always quite amused by the people who, who are surprised at that, you know. "What's he doing with all this tariff stuff?" I mean, like, every rally I covered of his, tariffs was a big thing.

   29. CWChris Williamson2:25

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DMDouglas Murray2:26

       So, uh, so yes, there are, there are some corners of it, uh, principally the Ukraine stuff which I'm concerned about. Um, but it's early days.
2. 9:30 – 19:54

   Should The Democratic Party Have People The Public Want?

   1. CWChris Williamson9:30

      Don Lemon said-

   2. DMDouglas Murray9:32

      That's a name I haven't heard for a while.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:34

      ... "People love AOC, Jasmine Crockett, and Eric Swalwell. I think the Democratic Party should put people out there who the people want, who they're asking for." Is that a good strategy for the future of the left?

   4. DMDouglas Murray9:44

      I'm not sure about that. Er- uh, Eric Swalwell was the one, was the one who was found banging Fang Fang, uh, wasn't he? Do you remember that?

   5. CWChris Williamson9:52

      (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray9:53

      Chinese spy Fang Fang. Uh, she, uh, infiltrated-

   7. CWChris Williamson9:57

      Stop saying it like that.

   8. DMDouglas Murray9:58

      No, Fang Fang. What's wrong with that?

   9. CWChris Williamson9:59

      (laughs) Stop saying it like that.

   10. DMDouglas Murray10:01

       He bang-bang Fang Fang.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:02

       (laughs)

   12. DMDouglas Murray10:03

       (laughs) He ... everyone knows that.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:05

       Okay.

   14. DMDouglas Murray10:05

       Yeah, he was infiltrated by a c- Chinese Communist Party spy.

   15. CWChris Williamson10:08

       Okay. Sexually.

   16. DMDouglas Murray10:10

       Very much so.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:11

       Okay.

   18. DMDouglas Murray10:11

       And, uh, regrettably so.

   19. CWChris Williamson10:13

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDouglas Murray10:14

       And, uh, that was a big national security breach. But, um, uh, yes, the others, I, I, th- uh, look, Don Lemon, why, why, I mean, m- like asking to find sense in the entrails of a chicken. Why, why, what's ... His analysis is of no value and if the Democrats listened to him, they'd never be in power again. What?

   21. CWChris Williamson10:36

       (inhales) Uh, let's say that you were a advisor to the left and, uh, in many ways y- I imagine that you do have, uh, desires to have a, a, a burgeoning, flourishing left that doesn't make everybody sort of shuddering-

   22. DMDouglas Murray10:50

       Sure.

   23. CWChris Williamson10:50

       ... cringe in that way.

   24. DMDouglas Murray10:51

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson10:51

       What would you advise them to do?

   26. DMDouglas Murray10:53

       In America?

   27. CWChris Williamson10:53

       Yes.

   28. DMDouglas Murray10:54

       Um, uh, y- a very straightforward one, which is you listen to your defeat and you learn from it and you work out what you did wrong. And I think they are to, to some extent. My friends, uh, who are on the left in America, Democrats, um, the sensible ones are trying to do that. You'll notice that, that since the election in November last year, they've definitely changed their strategy a bit. We're n- we haven't got, "Russia, Russia, Russia," and, uh, "You're all Nazis" so much.

   29. CWChris Williamson11:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DMDouglas Murray11:23

       They're still doing it a bit, but not anywhere near as much. Partly 'cause if, if your opponent has, has won the popular vote, it's tricky to pretend that ev- that the majority of people in America are Nazi supporters. The wiser Democrats realize that's not a good strategy.
3. 19:54 – 34:51

   Will Life In The UK Get Better?

   1. CWChris Williamson19:54

      You described the West as a civilization trying to erase itself.

   2. DMDouglas Murray19:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:59

      Do you reckon we've got any better-

   4. DMDouglas Murray20:00

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson20:00

      ... over the last few years?

   6. DMDouglas Murray20:01

      Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I, I think that the, I think that the anti-West and, uh, assault has been halted. Um, as I say, again, we'll see whether or not it, it, it corrects or over-corrects, but I, I, I don't think that in the, uh, era of Trump's second term that in America that it's going to be, uh, um, as much of a problem. Elsewhere, usual story. Our country of birth, usual story.

   7. CWChris Williamson20:33

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   8. DMDouglas Murray21:38

      Well, I don't know when you were last back, but w- w- my experience of going back to the UK now is that everyone is supremely depressed and doesn't think life will get better.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:47

      Yeah, it's kind of like a Gary's Economics monologue, uh, just being-

   10. DMDouglas Murray21:51

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson21:51

       ... played on repeat, but, like, that sentiment of you're broke and your children are gonna be broke, and no one's gonna get a house and you're gonna-

   12. DMDouglas Murray21:58

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:58

       ... die destitute, and ...

   14. DMDouglas Murray21:59

       Yeah, and everyone's gonna be poorer than, than this generation and all that sort of thing. Yeah, it's the, I've, I've, I was ve- very depressed when I got, went back to the UK last because I had, I think I'd just come fresh from the inauguration in DC, and I mean, which was bracing for lots of reasons. But, uh, I just noticed that all, you know, there are lots of opportunities for things to be righted in America and put in a more sane direction.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:20

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DMDouglas Murray22:20

       Again, we'll see if that happens, but I think there's a great opportunity, there's a whole set of great opportunities in America, economic, again, much more for the country, educational reform, a lot of problems that, uh, th- that America needs to address that have now the opportunity to be addressed. Uh, whereas Britain, like most of Western Europe, it just stumbles on, you know.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:42

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DMDouglas Murray22:42

       Uh, and it's very depressing, and I noticed that my friends-

   19. CWChris Williamson22:44

       It's not very inspiring.

   20. DMDouglas Murray22:45

       I've noticed that my friends there are all, like, wildly depressed and were rather surprised at how upbeat I was, you know. I mean, they beat it out of me, in fact-

   21. CWChris Williamson22:51

       Having just, having just-

   22. DMDouglas Murray22:52

       Having just-

   23. CWChris Williamson22:52

       ... come from a war zone, a selection-

   24. DMDouglas Murray22:54

       Well, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson22:54

       ... of war zones.

   26. DMDouglas Murray22:54

       But, I mean, but, but, you know, th- uh, within 24 hours of being in the UK, I was suitably depressed at the, at the equilibrium that was expected of every-

   27. CWChris Williamson23:02

       Mm-hmm. The cortisol level and ca- coming to line with everyone else, yeah. Instead, I've seen a lot of, um, well, plenty wars up close, but it's the UK that I'm most concerned about.

   28. DMDouglas Murray23:15

       Well, yeah, actually I am s- I am, uh, this, it ma- may be a sort of dramatic overstatement, but, uh, um, yeah, I mean ... What gives you hope in any country, whether it's a peace or a war, is whether, whether the people in the country w- want to f- fight for the country, metaphorically or literally.

   29. CWChris Williamson23:32

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DMDouglas Murray23:33

       And, um, in the last, uh, few years, I think since I last saw you, yeah, I've seen, spent a lot of time in Ukraine and, uh, more so in Israel and the Middle East, and, uh, seen people literally fighting for their survival and for their country. And that's a always, but particularly in those cases, a very remarkable thing to see. Um, w- when you then see a de-energized enervated society-
4. 34:51 – 47:37

   Is It Unhealthy To Keep Up With The News?

   1. CWChris Williamson34:51

      I've been fascinated by, uh, the pace of the news and how quickly... The sort of lack of stickiness that they've all had. Uh, is it disturbing that we regularly just forget or sort of look away from catastrophes? Or is it just sort of par for course in the modern world now? 'Cause like remember when Trump got shot? No, me neither.

   2. DMDouglas Murray35:12

      Yeah, I know, but that, that disappeared within days. It was amazing.

   3. CWChris Williamson35:16

      And it just seems like y-

   4. DMDouglas Murray35:17

      Haven't even got much of an explanation about the shooter.

   5. CWChris Williamson35:20

      And I, I don't see anybody really... Because there's always something new, the velocity of news. I remember, um, in AS level media studies in Stockton Six Form College, I was told this story about, uh, a lady on September 12th, 2001, who was a PR agent, and she advised all of the companies that they were working with to dump every piece of bad news that they had.

   6. DMDouglas Murray35:45

      Oh, there was somebody in the British government who, who was an advisor-

   7. CWChris Williamson35:47

      The good day for bad news.

   8. DMDouglas Murray35:48

      ... who got... Good day for bad news, that's right, and then she lost her job.

   9. CWChris Williamson35:50

      Yep.

   10. DMDouglas Murray35:51

       Uh, yeah. I don't think it... I, I, I think the, the devices we all have in our pockets speed everything up, but I, what, what I can't quite understand is that... I mean, I, I have to be across all, all or most of the news, certainly about the things I need to know about, because it's my, my job as well as my, um, my passion. But, um, I can't understand the, the people who, like, have the buzz on their Apple iPhone for like updates of news when, when they're...... they're not in the business of it. It seems, it's very, very unhealthy to my vie- uh, to my m- view. It's, it's, uh, I, I think it creates a sort of cycle of panic and, uh, e- and, and it's, you know, self-

   11. CWChris Williamson36:33

       Forgetfulness.

   12. DMDouglas Murray36:33

       ... and forgetfulness and self-aggrandizement and, you know, "Oh my God have you heard?" You know.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:37

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. DMDouglas Murray36:38

       There's been an earthquake in Myanmar. And that's bad but you, i- i- it's, it's, it just, th- it all flows by and it's always like that.

   15. CWChris Williamson36:45

       Mm.

   16. DMDouglas Murray36:46

       I'm not quite sure what people are meant to do with most of the information that's coming their way if they're not in the business. Not s- quite sure what's expected of them, other than to kind of, some people they think-

   17. CWChris Williamson36:56

       Wallow in it.

   18. DMDouglas Murray36:58

       ... yeah or sort of prove they care or something. I don't know, I wish more people would read books.

   19. CWChris Williamson37:03

       It just, you know, you've spent the last few years, uh, not in the US that much. You've been traveling, uh-

   20. DMDouglas Murray37:10

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson37:11

       ... not maybe the way that most people would consider traveling.

   22. DMDouglas Murray37:15

       Well, I didn't take a gap year in Thailand.

   23. CWChris Williamson37:17

       Shame. Uh, but with that, you know, we've had a lot of, an awful lot of turmoil over the last few years and it just-

   24. DMDouglas Murray37:23

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson37:23

       ... it doesn't, very few things seem to stick now. Uh, even causes that people were once unbelievably ardent about, they, there's, the sort of mañana, mañana something new, something more sexy-

   26. DMDouglas Murray37:36

       Mm.

   27. CWChris Williamson37:36

       ... something more recent. And, um-

   28. DMDouglas Murray37:38

       That's true.

   29. CWChris Williamson37:40

       Yeah. The ability for anything to be Lindy is, is, uh, increasingly difficult.

   30. DMDouglas Murray37:44

       To be what?
5. 47:37 – 57:38

   What Wartime Does To People

   1. CWChris Williamson47:37

      I don't know whether you know that, uh, Canada owns Pornhub.

   2. DMDouglas Murray47:41

      Does it indeed?

   3. CWChris Williamson47:42

      Yeah.

   4. DMDouglas Murray47:42

      Uh, I'm not quite sure of the... Is, is that just what happens? I say Canada and you go-

   5. CWChris Williamson47:46

      Yeah, Pornhub.

   6. DMDouglas Murray47:47

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson47:47

      Oh, uh, no. Y- you haven't... Wait for my 300 IQ move here.

   8. DMDouglas Murray47:51

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm watching this with interest.

   9. CWChris Williamson47:53

      The secret weapon in the trade war that Canada needs to use is to restrict access to Pornhub.

   10. DMDouglas Murray48:00

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson48:02

       That's how they fight back. You wanna talk about tariffs? Ah, we'll see what happens when you don't have as free and easy access to millions of-

   12. DMDouglas Murray48:10

       We turn this off.

   13. CWChris Williamson48:10

       Yeah, exactly.

   14. DMDouglas Murray48:11

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson48:11

       Honestly. That's, that... If a come- if this comedian came up with the idea-

   16. DMDouglas Murray48:14

       I didn't know that.

   17. CWChris Williamson48:14

       ... I think it's, I think it's a strong solution.

   18. DMDouglas Murray48:16

       Strong. We'll see if Mark Carney has the balls to do that.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:19

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDouglas Murray48:20

       Um, no, I mean, I, I was, I was fascinated by that. And when that poll first came out, uh, a lot (laughs) of Americans wrote about it and said, "Crikey, you know, that's, that's not, that's not good news." Um, but I, I, I wasn't so depressed about it because in my interpretation-... uh, the concept for most Americans with their country being invaded by a land invasion from another country is not just hard to imagine, it's impossible to imagine.

   21. CWChris Williamson48:45

       Yeah. Yeah.

   22. DMDouglas Murray48:46

       Um, it's not impossible to imagine if you live in Donetsk, or indeed in Kiev, uh, but it's im- it's not impossible if you live in Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia anymore. But, uh, it's impossible for most Americans to imagine. So, in a way, it's not really a fair question. It's, it's like me saying, you know, "How do you think you'd behave if UFOs landed and martians started telling you what to do?" You just don't know. What? Um, but it was the same in the UK, uh, after, uh, uh, about a year ago, I think, a- partly because of the R- the Russian, uh, invasion of Ukraine, but i- it was, there was also a, I think, the Head of the- Chief of The Defense Staff said that, you know, if this, if this escalation continued in Europe then it might, we might have to have conscription in the UK. And again, I mean, that sounds like, and like, well, nobody from this generation can even imagine that. Uh, but that was just what he said, and then of course there's a poll and it asks young people from the ages of 18 to 40, which is the ages that our forebears were when they went to fight in 1914 to '18, and 1939 to '45, and, um, well, a majority of people said that they wouldn't fight even if Britain was at existential risk of invasion. And, by the way, when I looked at the figures, I mean, it was, uh, th- there were, there were some great... or I think it was YouGov who did it, there were some fantastic gems inside that. One was that, that one of the main reasons why people said that they wouldn't fight was, like, just the most banal things that they'd been told by Hollywood films and things, which is... oh, and you know, and little bits of Gandhi, which was, you know... th- the number of people who said things like, "War doesn't solve anything," you know, wanna bet? Um, so there was that, and another one I think I was fascinated by the fact, I think, 9% of the young people questioned said that they couldn't fight because they had someone at home they were looking after. Also sounds like a mysterious answer to me. (laughs) "I'm, I'm looking after my nan so I can't fight to protect her." (laughs) I'm too busy bringing her tea in the morning to stop her getting-

   23. CWChris Williamson51:02

       Make sure that someone doesn't kick the door down.

   24. DMDouglas Murray51:03

       Yeah. It's very str-... Anyway, but the point is, th- the reason I mention this rather laboriously is I do think that it, i- it's very, very hard to predict how people actually react at the time of trial.

   25. CWChris Williamson51:16

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DMDouglas Murray51:16

       One of the reasons why I tell some of the, uh, the personal stories I do about the, uh, people I've spoken to in the war in Israel in the last year and a half is because it's so interesting to see who steps up and how.

   27. CWChris Williamson51:33

       How people react.

   28. DMDouglas Murray51:34

       And, you know, the heroism of, of, of some people, indeed many people, when you realize what's at stake, um... I quote the opening of On Democ- On Democracies and Death Cults, this, this, um, this thing I've thought about a lot which comes up in Tolstoy in War and Peace which is when the, uh, two armies are facing off against each other in the old Napo- Napoleonic style, you know, where they, they... and I'll do this around... they, they, they face each other on the battlefield and they, um, the order has not yet been issued to advance. And Tolstoy brilliantly describes how every soldier on each side knows that the step they're going to take is not just a step, it's a movement into a totally different realm. And that, you know, they, in that case you are from the realm of standing there, uniform polished, on guard, meant to be holding a line, and when you're, from the moment you're one step that way, you're in the place where you'll just have to do anything. And, um, and that's, that's one of the reasons why I'm, I, I'm, uh, why I'm interested in this because this is the, this is the, th- this is the most real, it's why war is so terrible and, and also for a writer so fascinating is because it's th- the, that, that transition from one world to another totally different world seems unfathomable until you're in it.

   29. CWChris Williamson53:15

       What have you learned about what wartime does to people?

   30. DMDouglas Murray53:20

       Um, a lot, but I would say the simplest and most important one is that it shows, uh, people, it ho- shows humanity, humankind at its absolute worst, and i- also at its absolute best. It's, uh, you... there's nothing, there's nothing comparable to it in human experience that brings out the appallingness of which our species is capable, and the greatness, and sometimes at the same moment.
6. 57:38 – 1:04:56

   Behind The Title Of Douglas' Latest Book

   1. CWChris Williamson57:38

      Explain the title to me again?

   2. DMDouglas Murray57:40

      On Democracies and Death Cults.

   3. CWChris Williamson57:43

      It's currently in between a lot of Easter books.

   4. DMDouglas Murray57:47

      I- I showed you Amazon bestseller lists, yes, just before we started. There's a, there's an awful lot of, um, uh... I will explain the title, but yes, it- it- it did amuse me that I'm currently, um, battling in the Amazon.com bestseller lists with, um... Uh, I'm currently at number 12, but number 13 sneaking up behind me is, uh, It's Not Easy Being a Bunny, an early reader book for kids. Beginner books. You've probably got it. And, um, also, well I'm chasing, I'm getting very close to catching up with, uh, a great tome you probably know as well called, uh, Hippity Hoppity Little Bunny Finger Puppet Board Book for Easter. Also Little Blue Truck Springtime! is doing very well.

   5. CWChris Williamson58:38

      (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray58:38

      You know there was a, there was a humorist in the UK many years ago who discovered that in the '70s or so, the three things that sold books in Britain in those days were anything to do with cats, anything to do with golf, and anything to do with Nazis. So he wrote a book called Golfing for Cats with a cat with a swastika armband on the cover.

   7. CWChris Williamson58:58

      (laughs) How did it do?

   8. DMDouglas Murray58:59

      Quite well-

   9. CWChris Williamson58:59

      Right.

   10. DMDouglas Murray58:59

       ... actually, I think. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:01

       Yeah.

   12. DMDouglas Murray59:01

       Um, (laughs) I'm not sure there's a perfect crossover in the Venn diagram of those readers but yeah, no, next time I'll call it Democracies and Death Cults and Easter Bunnies. Um, no, the, the, the title goes to, um, something I had thought about for a long time and which I try to answer in the book, which is, um, what attitude, uh, uh, people in free liberal societies, democratic societies, societies that are at peace, um, can take towards, uh, what I call the death cults. I should stress, by the way, that our societies have experienced plenty of death cults in the past. Um, I can give the example, there was a, a, a Spanish philosopher from the last century who was, uh, much opposed to the rise of fascism in Spain, Francoism, and, uh, the, uh, a meeting at the university he taught at, the, uh, students, uh, at one point, uh, started chanting, "Viva la muerte," long live death, and he, he said this is the moment when this necrophilic utterance, this is, this is the moment when it all goes wrong. So it has happened in the past, but the, the death cult I'm primarily, uh, uh, writing about and talking about in this book is the death cult of Hamas and Islamic, uh, jihadists in general. I, uh, I say that the, um-I was at a, one of the r- shortly after the 7th of October when I went, uh, to the region, went to Israel first. I, um, went to a reunion of some of the survivors of the Nova party and one of the, uh, young men who'd survived said to me, um, uh, after showing me his footage from the morning, which was too graphic to go into, but he said, "What would you do if this happened in your country?" And, uh, I thought, but I didn't say to him, but it has, you know, it has happened in my country. It happened at the Manchester Arena in 2017. It happened at the Bataclan theater in Paris in 2015. It happened at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando in 2015. It's just that it... First of all, people sort of don't know what to do about it and try to pass it over. Um, or it hasn't happened, thank God, hasn't happened in, uh, as much, but, uh, it's, uh, it- it really, I suppose it's in part, as well as being a firsthand account of war, the purpose of this book is to try to answer this question that I've tried to answer all my life which is, what attitude you can take and what response you can make to, uh, people who have totally different values to yours. Because you see, there has been this presumption, which we both grew up with, which is what we have is what everyone has or wants to have and we all have the same desires in this life. And, um, some people do and some people just don't. And some people want to, as, you know, they wanna make the world burn. And some of them want to make other people burn and take as many people as they can with them and much more. And the pr- the, the, the taunt that Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, the taunt they always have is the same, which is, uh, some variation of, "We love death more than you love life." And in fact, Hassan Nasrallah, who went to meet his maker, uh, last year in Beirut, the head of Hezbollah, he said this for decades, he said, you know, "The thing with the infidels is that they love life and this is their great weakness." And, uh, I think that's not the case. Um, but I know for sure, and it's one of the things that this book is about, is that it's not, it's not enough to just like life or to enjoy life. If you're gonna enjoy life, you also have to be willing to fight for it. And sometimes that's metaphorical and sometimes it's really not.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:03:54

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7. 1:04:56 – 1:13:22

   The Global Rise In Conspiracy Theories

   1. CWChris Williamson1:04:56

      Been pretty fascinated by the reaction online over the last, I think with the Ukraine, with the Middle East, with sort of a broader conversation about the Jewish community at large generally. Uh, I wonder how much Elon's opening up of X has contributed to out-group tribalism now that maybe some of the guardrails have been taken off with regards to that. Uh, but yeah, it, it feels to me like the world has reached some new fever pitch of sort of out-group passion, uh, against whoever they see as a scapegoat, whoever they see as being in the wrong, and nobody can agree- Mm.

   2. DMDouglas Murray1:05:35

      ... on who is in the wrong. Which is one of the most sort of interesting observations that-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:05:40

      Mm.

   4. DMDouglas Murray1:05:40

      ... everybody acts as if the facts are already settled-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:05:44

      Mm.

   6. DMDouglas Murray1:05:44

      ... whilst never being able to actually agree on what the facts are. So I say they're settled, you say they're settled, we don't agree, but both of us act as if they are. And, uh, yeah, I just, the, the reaction, especially in the West to a rapidly developing kinetic situation on the other side of the planet and-

   7. CWChris Williamson1:06:06

      Well, I mean, I think I've said to you before, that one of the things that I noticed in the internet age was that, um, uh, we'd gone from the era of, uh, we disagree about our opinions or our interpretations of an event and then, well, the internet age has given us the great things of we disagree about what just happened.

   8. DMDouglas Murray1:06:28

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:06:29

      And, um, that does throw up its own, uh, manias. So one of the reasons I try to see things with my f- with my own eyes is because I'm always pretty confident that someone's going to try to tell me I haven't seen something I've seen with my own eye.

   10. DMDouglas Murray1:06:44

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:06:46

       Um, and, uh, sure enough, that happens all the time, but you have the reassurance if you know.

   12. DMDouglas Murray1:06:52

       How's that? You know.And, uh, I- but I do find that interesting. There are for instance, I mean there are people who would like to regard themselves as civilized people, I'm sure, who just will not accept that what happened on October the 7th happened. Which is one of the reasons I went there, uh, straight away was because I knew that would happen.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:07:14

       When did you get there?

   14. DMDouglas Murray1:07:15

       I got there in October of 2023. I went because I was in Times Square the day after the massacre, as it was still going on, and um, the, uh, there was an anti-Israel, pro-Hamas protest happening in the center of Times Square, uh, with people supporting the massacre and I thought, "Well, this is, one of the things that's gonna happen is they're going to pass over the massacre. They're gonna celebrate it and pass it over. They're going to pretend it didn't happen or try to diminish it or minimize it." And, um, I just didn't want to see that happen. It was what many people said was like watching Holocaust denial in real time. And, um, yes, I mean, and, and, and in the other main conflict going on at the moment in Russia/Ukraine, you know, I mean, at the highest level of American government there have been people who have implied that, you know, Ukraine started the war or is the aggressor. And that's, uh, and that's disturbing to see because there are some things that just have to be agreed upon. Um, you know, it was Russian tanks that rolled into Ukraine in February 2022. It was Hamas terrorists who invaded by the thousands into Israel on October the 7th, 2023. Like, let's at least agree to that. As what you describe as the sort of, um, the online thing, is, uh, is definitely massively worsened and I think it's because, I mean, the sort of all the sluices are up. All of the, all of the guardrails, all of that. And there's, and there's good in lots of ways. I mean, look at, look at what happened when our society's tried to say there's only one explanation for, for instance, you know, the COVID, uh, virus coming out of the area where that virus was being made, and that it was to do with Chinese people eating bats, and from a wet market and not to do with the lab that was making that virus happening to be leaky. Um, w- we were told, uh, consistently that the lab leak was a conspiracy. And one of the reasons why that's so, uh, poisonous to the discourse as a whole is because it understandably makes people say, "If I've been lied to about that, what are the other things that are true? What are the other conspiracy theories that are not conspiracy theories?"

   15. CWChris Williamson1:09:57

       It becomes a gateway drug.

   16. DMDouglas Murray1:09:59

       Yeah. And I think a lot of people are on that. And then of course it's a great habit and it's a kind of enjoyable, and people like believe everything's being kept from them, and doubtless some stuff is being kept from us. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes not. But, um, I think, I thi- I think the, the, uh, the conspiratorial mindset is, is, is-

   17. CWChris Williamson1:10:18

       Flourishing.

   18. DMDouglas Murray1:10:18

       ... flourishing at the moment. And it's funny because you ca- you can, um, uh, well it's funny but it's also m- more importantly it's serious because it's a sign of a very unhealthy thing in society. Um, when the, uh, JFK files were released the other week, there was a lot of excitement that, you know, finally we're gonna discover exactly what happened and, uh, I wrote a column a little while afterwards saying, "No. The thing we've learned from the JFK files is that the president was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald with the gun that Lee Harvey Oswald owned, that Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald noticed was mi- missing from the house that morning." And, um, uh, 'cause it was funny because I noticed that, to the extent that I monitor reactions (laughs) to anything I say, I notice how many people were annoyed. "No! There's still, this question, you know, he wasn't as good a sharpshooter as, uh, he was..." You can't stop it. Um, it looks, by the way, on that one, it's quite interesting, it looks like what, what happened was the CIA were monitoring him pretty carefully, Lee Harvey Oswald, because he tried to defect to Russia once before. And he tried to defect to Cuba. And, um, and so the CIA were monitoring him and they didn't want to reveal the methods by which they did that. In the process, one of the biggest conspiracy theories of the modern era was born. But y- but I don't think I'll persuade anyone who thinks otherwise on that, who's deeply into the idea that LBJ desperately wanted to do this, or X wanted to do that. And the s- the problem is, is what you allude to, is that the problem is that the algorithm rewards the crazy.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:12:06

       Mm.

   20. DMDouglas Murray1:12:07

       I noticed o- on the day that the JFK files were released, some, uh, wank rag online, um, started a live stream that was s- suggested to me. And it was, its title was JFK files reveal Israeli, like, plot or something. And there was no such thing. But that gets engagement. Whereas (laughs) JFK scholars reading documents live, it'll take about four months.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:12:53

       Less sexy.

   22. DMDouglas Murray1:12:54

       Less engagement. You're not gonna watch them reading.... the documents. And, you know, that's just the reality of the era we're in, uh, and you can't stop it. But I think people should be alive to it, should be aware of it. And this is one of the things that's being done to us by these darn devices-

   23. CWChris Williamson1:13:19

       Hmm.

   24. DMDouglas Murray1:13:19

       ... that tell me all about Easter Bunny books.

8. 1:13:22 – 1:20:26

   Who Is To Blame?

   1. DMDouglas Murray1:13:22

   2. CWChris Williamson1:13:22

      It seems like the sort of scapegoat, out-group, finger-pointing dynamic, it feels like that is being tuned up, at least over the last couple of years.

   3. DMDouglas Murray1:13:34

      Yeah, and, um, as I say in this book, I mean, it's inevitable because historically, we know this is the case. And I say this as somebody who isn't Jewish, but it will almost always end up with the Jews.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:13:46

      Why is that the case?

   5. DMDouglas Murray1:13:48

      Very interesting question. Um, one is that right and left can both do it.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:13:53

      Oh, like-

   7. DMDouglas Murray1:13:54

      Very-

   8. CWChris Williamson1:13:54

      ... a equal opportunity victim.

   9. DMDouglas Murray1:13:56

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:13:57

       Right.

   11. DMDouglas Murray1:13:57

       Both right and left can do it. I say at one point in the book, one of the interesting things about anti-Semitism is that it's, uh, which isn't to say that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, which isn't, etc., etc., but I think that one of the interesting things about anti-Semitism is that it's famously a shape-shifting virus. It can come from anywhere. It can come from the political left, it can come from the political right. It can come from people wearing jackboots, and it can come from people wearing COVID masks, you know. Latterly, we've been less attuned to the existence of the second, you know. There's been, there's always this expectation that it'll be the same as last time, but it doesn't. It moves. But the reason why I do think that that's a perennial to the conspiracy mind is because, uh, the Jews can be blamed for everything, and just have been historically. Uh, they get blamed for ... They get simi- simultaneously blamed for being poor and for being rich. You know, 19th century British anti-Semitism, uh, uh, and indeed continental anti-Semitism relied on the, the trope of the Rothschilds and of the impoverished Jews from Eastern Europe, and they just did both at once. Uh, they can be accused of being very religious and trying to push religion and also being ultra secularists, the most secular, uh, pushing atheism. Um, they can be blamed for being stateless. Rootless cosmopolitans was the line that the anti-Semites of the right used to use, and the left, about Jews. And now they get blamed for having a state. So, it- it- it's- it's a sort of perennial.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:15:37

       Hm.

   13. DMDouglas Murray1:15:37

       And I think if you, if you wanted to go down exactly on why it is, it's- it's- uh, uh, many reasons. There's different types of anti-Semitism. There's Islamic anti-Semitism. There's types of Christian anti-Semitism. Um, uh, I think that the, it- it ends up usually being that, um, historically, Jews are almost perfectly positioned to mirror whatever your own failings are. And this, this is, uh, it's, uh, a line I quote in the book from a great Russian writer, Vasily Grossman, who said in the 20th century in, uh, his masterpiece Life and Fate, he said, "Tell me what you accuse the Jews of, and I'll tell you what you're guilty of." It's fascinating insight, this. He's, uh, it's a mirror to your own failings.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:16:26

       How so?

   15. DMDouglas Murray1:16:27

       So, for instance, uh, the main accusation that the revolutionary Islamic government in Tehran uses of the Jewish State of Israel is that it's a, um, it's a colonial power. Um, and, uh, it, uh ... This is quite funny to me, because I mean, by the way, the Supreme Leader of Iran last year wrote a thank you letter to students at Columbia and other American Ivy League universities for coming out for the last year and a half, uh, on the anti-Israel protests. He wrote them a thank you letter and joining him in the anti-colonialist cause. There is one country in the Middle East which has been colonizing the place more than any other in our lifetimes, and that's the Iranian Revolutionary Government in Tehran. They colonized the great country of Iran in 1979. They've, in the years and decades since, they've colonized Iraq, colonized Syria, colonized Yemen, colonized and destroyed Lebanon. But they say the Jews are the colonialist power. Another very good example just right there, the, the president of Turkey, a sometime very close enemy of mine, um, uh, uh, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who I initiated a defamatory poetry competition against many years ago. That's a byway. Uh-

   16. CWChris Williamson1:17:58

       You have friends in high places.

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:18:00

       I do, and, and good enemies. The best. Uh, the, uh, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, President Erdoğan of Turkey, uh, accuses the Jewish state of being, uh, an occupying power, which is hilarious if you know Cyprus at all. Because the north half of Cyprus is occupied by Turkey now, still. Has been for 50 years. Totally illegal occupation that nobody in America or Britain or the West seems to give a damn about. So when Erdoğan says, "The Jews are occupiers," all he's doing is telling us about himself. That's all. And, uh, when ... I mean, it- it works every which way you do it. The Nazis accused the Jews of being racists. It's almost as if it tells us something about the Nazis. It's- it's an extraordinary thing. Uh, uh, and this works almost every way. Um, yeah. People accuse the Jews of things they're guilty of.... and, uh, because they're a small enough portion of the global population, uh, and tend to outperform, not always by any means, but tend to outperform in the areas they go into, they're almost the perfect scapegoat.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:19:24

       Is this not true of other groups too?

   19. DMDouglas Murray1:19:26

       Oh, yeah, for sure. Never anywhere as much, um, because of the shape-shifting thing I described, and because there are very deep theological reasons for it. You know, it took until the 1950s for a pope in Rome to say, "The Jews are not responsible for the killing of Christ." That's a long time, um, for the church to confirm that. So, you know, you have many centuries of Christian antisemitic pogroms and much more.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:20:02

       Hm.

   21. DMDouglas Murray1:20:03

       Uh, the Islamic world is not yet caught up with that and, uh, much of it still blames the Jews for rejecting the revelation of Muhammad because when the inventor of Islam came up with the idea and went around trying to get other people to join him, the Jews were among the first people who said, "No, thanks, we've already got our religion and we'd like to keep it."

9. 1:20:26 – 1:31:59

   Lessons From Conflicts For The Wider World

   1. CWChris Williamson1:20:27

      What are the lessons for the wider world from the Ukraine, from the Middle East over the last few years? What, what should people take away from the way that these sort of conflicts have unfolded and the response? Because it seems, and a lot of people sort of say this, uh, ever escalating kinetic engagement, th- the sort of burbling below the surface. You mentioned before about the only job of the politicians and government is to keep the economy going.

   2. DMDouglas Murray1:20:59

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:21:00

      There's maybe some fertile ground to sow seeds in with regards to that, which is gonna raise tensions, uh-

   4. DMDouglas Murray1:21:07

      Say more.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:21:08

      Well, I watched a video from, uh, the PM of Singapore who, uh, as far as I can tell, I'm sure there's critics of Singapore out there and I'm not a geopolitics expert, um, as far as I can tell, Singapore's kind of a shining light of, uh, some areas of growth, governance-

   6. DMDouglas Murray1:21:25

      Oh, for sure, of economics, for sure.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:21:27

      Yeah. Uh-

   8. DMDouglas Murray1:21:28

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:21:28

      And he said himself, you know, that economic, uh, turbulence like this has preceded a lot of pretty big conflicts in the past and, uh, if you've got a few Petri dish examples of this actually happening-

   10. DMDouglas Murray1:21:48

       Mm.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:21:49

       ... before you've got the economic pressure happening as well, globally, you know, the, the era of free ta- trade is over, you know?

   12. DMDouglas Murray1:21:56

       Could be, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:21:57

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   14. DMDouglas Murray1:23:05

       I, uh, I- I don't know. I mean, I'm very wary about, um, using other people's tragedies as mere sort of learning, you know, points.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:23:15

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DMDouglas Murray1:23:16

       But I can tell you the f- the few, uh, the few sort of positive th- things that, that I have picked up, and one is a very straightforward one, which I think is a very important one for the West which I go into in this book which is, um, because I mentioned, I mean, it's, it's about this, these twin worlds and how does the democracy, whatever you're, whether you're a Democrat, Republican, doesn't matter, Labour, Conservative, doesn't matter, but what can anyone who broadly speaking likes the societies we're from and wants them to continue and wants them to do well, what can they do if those societies are tested? And I think one of the things that is really, uh, very obvious to me now is you need to know what you're fighting for. You need to know that you're, what you're fighting for is something that you cherish and you love. And I think that there has been in the period of de-energizing which hopefully we're coming out of, but th- in that period, we have all been told in America and Britain and elsewhere that what we have is not good, you know? As I said in my last book, in The War on the West, we have been told that, you know, like, we're guilty. I mean, this is all horse shit, by the way. But I mean, you know, that we're uniquely guilty from colonialism or uniquely guilty from slavery or uniquely guilty from racism or all of this stuff. It's total horse shit, we should never have put up with it for t- so long, that among other things, people from the, round the world wanted to come to countries in the West and then tell us how bad we were. Should never have agreed to that. If somebody came into my home-... and said they didn't like my home, and they thought it was uniquely awful, I think I'd tell them to scram. Uh, so why we put up with this for so long? I don't know. But we have been and arguably many young people in particular, younger than us, have been put up... Have been told that, that what they have been born into is not good. And y- one of my ins- first instincts when I saw that poll of young Americans and young Brits, you know, "Would you be willing to lay down your life for the country if something terrible happened and you had to step up?" I think one of the reasons why the, the "yes" vote is so low is because doesn't matter whether you're patriotic or not, you've been told your country's rotten. You know? There was a, there was an article written in The Daily Mail the other week by a very smart, young British guy who, who's right wing. I think he's a, you know, sort of Reform voter type saying, "Why would I lay down my life for my country when it's let me down so badly? When, you know, our politicians don't listen to us? When..." So it's not just a left-right thing, by any means, but I think people have been told from a lot of different directions that our countries are not good, and I think that's not true. I never thought that was true. Got a long enough memory, and I've traveled enough, run up enough air miles in this life to know that's not true. But if you tell people that it's the case for a long time, and you de-energize them, and you demotivate them, you tell them that they're rotten, then yeah. You can really demoralize a society. I think that needs to turn around. I think that people need to recognize what, what we have that's good. And as I've said to you before, the footfall alone tells us all we need to know. The footfall alone tells it. Nobody is trying today to make their way out of America to get to the safe harbor of Venezuela. Nobody's even leaving Britain to go to France. Certainly, nobody's leaving France or Spain or Italy to try to get to Algeria. And in turn, nobody from Algeria is trying to break into Subsaharan Africa. Very few people are trying to break into Communist China. (laughs) Absolutely no one is trying to hotfoot it to North Korea. Okay. So, so like all of the countries that people in the world most want to come to are now what they have been for decades, America, Canada, Australia, Britain, France, and so on. So why did we put up with being told that these countries that are demonstrably the places people want to come to are bad places, and everywhere else is good? It's just so sickening to me. I've had enough of it, and I think most people have.

Episode duration: 1:56:54