EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,236 words- 0:00 – 0:22
Intro
- NPNina Power
I was just looking at some videos of women who were upset about how they're treated on dates or something, and, by the dating apps. They're sort of outraged that these apps somehow have permitted these men to behave in ways that like are quite caddish. And it's like, you're literally on like a hookup app. What do you expect? (laughs) Like...
- 0:22 – 5:10
Why Nina’s Book Was Almost Not Published
- CWChris Williamson
Did people try to cancel your book before it was even released?
- NPNina Power
Yes, they did.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what happened there?
- NPNina Power
Well, I, I won't go into detail. But, uh, there's a small number of very strange people who get their, their kicks from, from doing this. Uh, and we live in this bizarre cancel culture age. And so, yes, I have, I have these people who think that talking about sexual difference is tantamount to somehow being Hitler. Um, and they kind of run around, you know, emailing people and trying to get me canceled. And sometimes when I give a talk, people hire security guards to protect me. And, uh, yeah, I mean, lots of women are in this bizarre position. It's like, I mean, I'm sort of joking about it, but on some level, it's actually deeply horrible. And, you know, (laughs) who are these people? Anyway.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you're a dangerous ... You're a very, very dangerous looking woman.
- NPNina Power
(laughs) I know. I'm terrifying.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, okay. So, do you think that there's a crisis with masculinity right now?
- NPNina Power
Well, I think we're always supposed to say that. It's one of these sorts of cliches. Like, masculinity is always in crisis. Like, ever since, you know, I remember reading things sort of 20 years ago, masculinity was in crisis then. And I think in the 1890s, it was in crisis. Um, and so on and so forth. But yeah, I mean, I, I do think there are sort of a, a series of things that have kind of come together to make masculinity and being a man seriously difficult and, uh, a big problem, both for men and for women. And I, I wanted to try and think about ways in which men and women could get along better, and that we could also start to talk again about what it is to be a good man, you know, because this idea that all masculinity is bad and men are somehow, you know, inherently evil, I mean, it's incredibly stupid. It's, it's not true, right? M- most women have very lovely relationships with men, and friends who are men, and brothers and fathers, and there are men in their lives who they really, really love. And, you know, w- don't want to see demonized by this very, very generalizing and stupid rhetoric, um, about men, you know, which we've seen a lot of in the last kind of five, 10 years, I think. So toxic masculinity, um, the idea that all men are sort of somehow got power and that they're all sort of predatory. They're all just kind of, you know, unpleasant, uh, underneath. Um, so yeah, I think there's a crisis in that sense. There's also a kind of bigger crisis in terms of the economy and the types of jobs that people are getting. You know, the economy was deliberately, explicitly, uh, made into this kind of knowledge economy under Thatcher. All of the kind of, um, sort of manual labor and, and industrial jobs which were typically done by men, um, have been eradicated, you know? So there is a kind of crisis in that sense as well. You know, what, what role do men have? You know? And the serious aspect of this would be to do with things like, uh, depression and suicide. You know, like suicide is the leading cause of death for men under 45 in the UK. You know, it's insane. It's like, uh, there's a real problem here, you know, with men not knowing what their role is and not feeling that they've got responsibility and they've got a place, you know? And I think in terms of our collective humanity, we should all care about that, you know? It's, it ... This is a question for all of us. Um, so yeah, there's lots of different ways of looking at, um, a kind of crisis. But yeah, I would say we're definitely in the middle of one and we need to kind of work out together how to sort of resolve, resolve things.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a problem with you as a woman writing about masculinity?
- NPNina Power
Well, I do, I do make a joke about it in the book. I do say, obviously, I don't really know what men want. It, it ... In the first place, it's a kind of jibe about Freud, 'cause Freud famously says, you know, "What d- what does woman want?" And he doesn't know either. So I think if Freud could have a go, I thought, "Well, you know, uh, s- I can as well." And, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
You can have a crack and even the scales.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. So I ... But I do provide a handy list at the beginning, 'cause I did ask a lot of my male friends what it was they wanted. So I actually do give a list, and it was things like a beer, and a shed, and pussy, and Nigella Lawson, and you know, these sorts of things.
- CWChris Williamson
Wasn't one of them just to be left alone as well?
- NPNina Power
Yes. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- NPNina Power
I know who that was.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- NPNina Power
Um ... (laughs) But yeah, I mean, there is something kind of like cheeky about this book, right? Of course, it's like ridiculous, um, on some level. But I think there's also a way in which we live in an era in which there's more and more transparency, right? Men are writing about their lives online, and anyone can look at it, right? So even if they think, think they're talking to the, to each other or to themselves or not to wo- not to women, we can still read it all, right? So part of my kind of dark mission was to, to go and find out what men say to each other when they think that women aren't listening, and then sort of report back. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh,
- 5:10 – 11:15
Are Men More Powerful than Women?
- CWChris Williamson
is it right to say that men have more power than women? Do you think?
- NPNina Power
It, it really depends what we mean by power, you know? So I talk about status in the book, and actually how difficult it is. All of this language, you know, of alpha, beta, sigma. Um, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Simp, incel, cook-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... soy boy.
- NPNina Power
There's all this language which circulates in the so-called manosphere, i.e. the kind of bit of the internet that focuses on men. Um, and you know, what is an alpha man, a man in our society, right? Is it the strongest man? A lot of them are in prison, right? Is it the richest man? A lot of them are nerds, right? The question of (laughs) status is like not obvious, right? The question of what power is. Is power succeeding on the terms of this world? Well, maybe. But there are other kind of values, right? There are spiritual values. There's the value of being a good father. There's the value of being just a kind person. Do you know what I mean? Like, there, there are many different ways to be...... uh, successful, if you like, or to be good, you know. And we often have a very narrow materialist conception, you know, that it's just about money or recognition. And actually, none of those things really make anyone happy. They don't really make men happy, and they don't really make women happy either. So, you know, I've got a big problem with liberal feminism as well. The idea that, you know, women getting jobs as CEOs or, you know, making money is somehow like the be all and end all of feminism. Like, no, it isn't, you know. I, I think it's a, it's a very narrow image of, of freedom and, and all of those sorts of things. So, and also, women definitely have power in the sense that they also have power over men, which is to say the power to kind of, you know, manipulate and, and, um, give affection, or withhold affection. And lots of the things that men do are in relation to women, right? Not everything. But it, but it's very obvious that men care about women. They care about what women think. They care about whether women like them, they care about, you know, looking after them. Um, and if we don't say that women have power, then we're reducing them back to this idea of children, you know? And we're not. You know, adult women and adult men both have power. They might have slightly different kinds of power, um, but they definitely both do.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, ultimately, women have the ability to gatekeep whether or not that man's genetic lineage gets to continue, which is, you know, about as fundamental as you're going to get. Between survival and reproduction, you've got 50%. One of the interesting things that I've been thinking about a lot recently is that there is an inherently masculine frame that is being put forward as the admirable, appropriate, achievable goal that women are supposed to try and attain. And that is, you should be a boss bitch, clap back, you should not settle for less, you should get over your last boyfriend by getting under the next one. You know, th- it's a very sort of masculine frame that this is being given to-
- NPNina Power
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you should pursue education, employment, status, prestige, in exactly the same way that men have typically done for a long time. But what that seems to me is to take a lot of power away from women that fundamentally want to have a family, or who take their sense of purpose and belonging from being a part of a community, or doing things with people as opposed to things. Men typically have leaned towards things, but it seems like we're saying to women, "No, no, no. The way for you to take your power back within this society is to forget the thing that you're naturally, uh, you may have a predisposition to. And if you do choose to do that, then you're, you've just been, you've fallen for the tradwife fucking conspiracy, and actually what you should be doing is working at a law firm."
- NPNina Power
Um, yeah. I thi- I think, you know, whilst, on the one hand, we would love t- there to be kind of equal value- valuation of all different modes of life, you know, so that whatever people choose to do, we would respect it, you know, unless it's sort of, I don't know, being an arms dealer, or murderer, or something. But whatever, you know, within a sort of frame, we would be like encouraging of... You know, hopefully. And we would value, precisely, motherhood and fatherhood as well as, like, getting a PhD or whatever, right? So, but I agree with you that the tendency in a kind of modern... The current situation we're in is to push women into those sorts of, um, roles and those kind of, uh, yeah, sort of, um, like you say, uh, previously quite masculine positions of being like- uh, having sex with lots of people, uh, being successful on the terms of this world, and all of those sorts of things. Um, I think there isn't enough discussion, enough realistic discussion for women about fertility, which does fall off a cliff at a certain point. And actually, the longer you delay it, you know, the, the harder it is. You know, I don't have children myself, but I think that's, that should, by necessity, be a rare position and not one that is kind of the mainstream idea. Um, and it's a very complicated decision for women to have children or not, and there are lots of... You know, some women can't have children, some women want children but leave it too late because of economic situations, you know. So, um, I think, yeah, part of this is about revaluing what it is to be a mother and a father, 'cause I think the deg- the culture genuinely, um, is very down on that, and it's making it very difficult for people to start families, particularly younger people than me, particularly Millennials, um, who are struggling to get access to those adult things like property and, and, you know, even renting, and, and getting a job, and all of that. So, um, yeah, I, I... Given that I'm also kind of anti-capitalist, and I'm anti-consumerism, and I'm anti this kind of system, I don't see there's any advantage for, to women behaving like men in this system, because the system itself is inhuman and, um, you know, makes us turn against our fellow feeling, and it turns us all into competitors. So like in the book, I talk about the way in which men and women are encouraged to be more like brother and sister, you know, uh, almost like rivals, rather than as in some other kinds of relationship, which would be equal but different, and those differences would be kind of celebrated.
- 11:15 – 23:03
Why People Fear & Distrust Men
- NPNina Power
- CWChris Williamson
How have we got to the point where there's so much fear and mistrust of men, do you think?
- NPNina Power
I think it's a combination of things. I think, you know, there's a kind of pendulum swing. We're about 60 years after the sexual revolution, and I think a lot of, uh, people are, are currently revaluing whether that was actually a good thing or not (laughs) for either men or women, right? It seems to encourage forms of irresponsible, you know, behavior. It, um, turns sex into another kind of commodity rather than a, a form of intimacy and bonding, which it actually is. Uh, you know, it's, it shouldn't be treated, in my opinion, as something, um, casual necessarily, you know. And I th- I think the more people who have casual sex, the more it erodes the love of, of individual people, you know. And, and the ide- if you start treating everybody the same, you don't see...... you know, the, the unique beauty of individual people, and you don't necessarily feel any loyalty to any particular person, right? So I think there's, there's the c- the sexual revolution has pushed us, uh, in that direction. And it, it might be beneficial for like 20% of men who can have their pick of 80% of women, right, which is seems to be how the data skews roughly. Um, but it's not really beneficial for the average man or woman to have this very, very unequal, um, competitive, you know, driven by desire sort of sexual economy. Um, it's awful actually. Um, so I think, you know, obviously there are very high-profile cases where some men do terrible things, like Sarah Everard case would be a recent case in point, which brings up questions of what do we do with male violence, and I think everybody wants an answer to that question, right? Men are violent towards each other, they're violent against themselves, and they're violent against women. You know, men are unequivocally responsible for like 95% of all human violence, right? We kn- we, we know this. Um, possibly even more. But it, it is an issue. I, so I don't think that demonizing men and saying that they're all evil is a good solution. I think it's a terrible solution. I think it makes, it pushes men into a, a state of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you know what I mean? Okay, well, if I'm evil, then I'm evil. Um, whereas I think if, if we say, on the other hand, that men can be good and that we can all be better, um, and that one of the other things I suggest is that men need to think, start thinking of themselves a little bit more as part of a class, you know, a class of people called men, um, rather than, or not only also as individuals, right? Of course we're all individuals, but we're also part of, of a, of a sex. You know, I'm a woman. You're a man. You know, it's not to say that you're responsible therefore for all other behavior that, that men, uh, you know, commit or things that men do, but if we had more of a sense of looking after each other in a certain way, we might be able to prevent some of these things happening. So like if you had a male friend, for example, who was starting acting out and, I don't know, getting really, uh, all over the place, like maybe something bad had happened to him, you know, maybe he was really depressed or upset and he was starting to, to behave in a, in a bad way, you know, tough love, like real love would be to say, you know, "Mate, sort it out. Like, I'll help you." You know, "Let's get help for you," whatever, right? And that's what everybody needs at some point, um, you know. Some people might not need that, but quite a lot of people run into trouble in their life, you know. I certainly have, and, you know, I think it's really common. So, you know, it, it's that kind of thing. How do people take responsibility for each other, care about each other more, often in a m- maybe a stricter way?
- CWChris Williamson
I think the problem is that it's very difficult to be proud of your masculinity at the moment when masculinity itself is pretty difficult to define, when everything in popular culture is saying that masculinity in the typical ways that you used to define it is toxic or somehow perverse or wrong. You've got companies like Gillette and, um, who else is it that's gone world- like even, well, Nike's done it, to do with race, I suppose. But specifically Gillette, you know, under... They're, they're a company which is built on masculinity and men, undermining principles of masculinity. And then, uh, from a personal standpoint, you know, when the Sarah Everard thing, uh, like we need to be protected from all men, and then if men say, "Well, it's not all men," that's somehow seen as the same as saying like, "All lives matter" against Black Lives Matter. It's the same kickback that, that you get, which makes... It's, it's difficult to not feel resentment for the entire movement at heart. And that's, you know, it's a juvenile thing to feel, but it's true.
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, if, if I get lumped in with a psychopathic police rapist killer, I think, "Well, I have, I have more in common than a wo- with a woman than I do with that person." And then when I hear that, I think, "Right, okay, well, fuck you." And I go, "Okay, no, swallow it. The, this, this is an emotional reaction that's coming from a group of people that are in a, having a bad situation," so on and so forth. But it's not easy. It doesn't co-opt me into that movement. And David Buss, the evolutionary psychologist, he had a look at the stats around sexual assault for men, and there are a s- very small number of men that conduct a massive number of sexual assaults. So it is not all men.
- NPNina Power
Um, absolutely. And I, you know, one of the, the th- the points of the book is to actually, to look at these forms of resentment, you know, both from women towards men and from some men towards women, right? So I look at the extreme kind of resentment positions, um, and say this isn't the way to proceed actually. You know, you, it doesn't make sense to blame an entire sex for your failings or to generalize in this way. So I agree with you, um, again, the question for everybody is how do we prevent these terrible things from happening? You know, is it how do we identify these tendencies in this very small number of men in particular? Um, and I don't know the answer to that. I mean, that seems to be a question for criminologists and psychologists, and also in the way that we think about community and how we live together. Like if we were living in a smaller community and we all knew each other, we might have more of a sense of when someone was behaving awfully or if there was somebody who needed protecting from themselves or from others, you know, rather than this kind of more atomized way that we do live in which we, we walk around a city and we don't know people, you know, that we are surrounded by strangers, you know, because I don't think it's very healthy to live in constant fear. You know, we've also had two years of a kind of fear narrative being promoted by the government, which they explicitly omitted, and I think this kind of, um, encouraging feelings of fear doesn't benefit people at all. No.
- CWChris Williamson
It doesn't benefit us.
- NPNina Power
... it does benefit, you know, I don't know, businesses who make money off people ordering offline and, you know, off the internet, and, you know, a general sense that people are isolated and lonely and atomized, you know. And, and none of that is good. So, I think there needs to be more open discussions, more conversations, more listening, more understanding, uh, of both men and women, you know. And if men or women get angry at a certain point about how they think they've, they've been treated or something bad, then there has to be stages after that, you know. That can't just be the, you know, the only move. Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it that we've got this sort of very low resolution view at the moment of people? What is it about the current world that's meaning that it's all men, all women, all police, all Black people, all disabled people, all inter-gender people?
- NPNina Power
Yeah. I th- I think it's a divisive logic of the media in many ways, right? You know, we've seen people, uh, (sighs) demonized or characterized in this way, in terms of groups. Like, it's very, very useful for the powers that be if people feel divided among themselves. Like, you know, I remember rave, right, in the '90s. And this was great because there was this kind of collective experience. You know, not everyone went to a rave. I was a little bit young. But it was like an atmosphere where you would meet people who were different, and difference was cool, you know. And it was nice to meet people who were different. You didn't think, "Oh, I'm different from that person, therefore they're evil and bad and I must hate them." You know, it was a kind of recognition of difference that wasn't divisive. And I think, you know, what do the media want to do? They want to sell papers and they want to sell things. So the more polemical and the more generalizing, the more polem-
- CWChris Williamson
What's polemical mean?
- NPNina Power
Oh, sort of, um, taking one side in a very fierce way. So like a polemic is like a kind of, you know, an angry screed written against. So, so I could have written a book that was like a polemic against men, you know. I could have written, "I Hate Men," or whatever. But, uh, it's not true, right? It would've been a lie, you know. There are many men I love. Uh, so it would've been ridiculous. But, you know, it's a, it's a form of writing, if you want to say something in a kind of over the top sort of way. And I think, you know, the media thrives on these kind of generalizations and these kind of like claims because they, precisely because people will click on them and they'll be irritated and, you know. So, I think, uh, the more we step away (laughs) from those things, and we think about what's real in our own lives, like the people we know, our friends, our partners, our families, you know, the better. And I think a lot of this is also about turning people away from their families and dividing them in that way. So I think the family should be much more, I don't know, prominent and celebrated as a, as a form of... E- even as a form of resistance against the state and against the incursions of a world that makes you want to think that we're all enemies.
- CWChris Williamson
What about the patriarchy?
- NPNina Power
Well, I- I... There's a chapter in my book, um, which discusses this, and I th- I say that I think the way in which it's generally used, in the casual way today is completely meaningless, uh, if not sort of actively unhelpful. Um, it doesn't really take into account questions of class. There are many men who don't have power in, however we define that. You know, there are many men... Like, I talk about the opioid crisis in America, um, which is... Overwhelmingly affects poor, White, working-class men, you know, in their swathes, and we've known, we've known about that for a few years. Um, and the suicide rates and so on. And so, there is this kind of question about, well, if the patriarchy exists, where does it exist? You know, does it exist in the bodies of individual men? You know, are you a patriarch? You know, are you oppressing me right now? (laughs) Um, but also, I go back and look at the original meaning of it. So if you look in the Bible, you have these patriarchs like Abraham, and actually what a patriarch is someone who takes responsibility, you know, and looks after his family. It's someone who is actually the adult in the room. And actually, we have a culture that encourages both men and women to behave like children and infantile, demanding toddlers for as long as possible. You know, that's what consumer culture is. So, and actually, nobody really wants to take responsibility, because taking responsibility for yourself might mean, you know, getting fit and looking after yourself and not acting like a dick. And taking responsibility for other people would involve things like telling people to stop, you know, like, "You've had enough," or, "Let's go home now," or whatever. Um, and that... A lot, a lot of people don't wanna take that role either. So actually, where there's a sort of lack of patriarchy in the old sense, which is people taking responsibility, um, a- as well as there being a lack of actual fathers, you know. Why do we live in a culture in which it's okay for fathers to abandon their children, right? It shouldn't be okay at all.
- 23:03 – 31:48
Did #MeToo Trigger Man-hating?
- NPNina Power
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it that this problem that we are seeing to do with masculinity and this sort of man-hating, why has that accelerated so much within, what, the last maybe 10 to 5 years? W- I... Was... Is it Me Too? Was Me Too the, the sort of match that ignited this?
- NPNina Power
Uh, well, I think it was happening before that. I mean, I remember a long time ago there were all these discussions about whether men were over. Do we still need men? Why don't we just have a sperm bank or something? And, you know, um...
- CWChris Williamson
That was the real radical feminist approach, right? Wasn't it the 1970s or something that every... E- even the non-lesbian feminists were turning lesbian because they didn't... They wanted to prove that they didn't need men?
- NPNina Power
There was always a very small minority. And I do talk about s- separatism in the book, but there's also kind of forms of male separatism, like Men Going Their Own Way and... You know, this is also a small movement. But it's interesting to compare them. Um, yeah. And I- I'd say it's, it's weird actually, because I think the stereotype of the second-wave feminist is this kind of angry, man-hating woman, was never actually, um, true, but now it is true. So like, if you're a liberal feminist, like you are... you do hate men.
- CWChris Williamson
You've become a cliché of yourself.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. And act- and actually, I don't think the second wave really did hate men, because actually a lot of it was about getting rid of gender expectations. And that was also for boys and for men. It was like saying, you know, "We should all be able to express ourselves more, and that gender is harmful." Gender as in social expectation is bad for both men and women and boys and girls, right? So it wasn't just, "Oh, women need to do better." It was like, "Actually, if we change the framework, it'll be better for everyone." Um, men included.I, I think... I, like I say, I think, I think the media has encouraged this kind of, you know, divisive hatred, which isn't real, but does have real effects, you know, in terms of how people think. And I was just looking at some videos of women who are upset about how they're treated on dates or something, and, by the dating apps. And, you know, they're sort of outraged that these apps somehow have permitted these men to behave in ways that like are quite caddish. And it's like, you're literally on like a hookup app. Like, what do you expect? (laughs) Like, so I don't know. It's, it's very, it's very weird. But there's sort of, there's sort of like a permission given to, to, I don't know, be outraged, um, about male behavior, even in a culture in which that's obviously encouraged. So, it strikes me, if you really wanted to meet like a nice man, and you didn't wanna have to go through all of this, like, rigmarole of the dating apps and whatnot, like you'd be better off, like, going to church or, like, joining a gardening organization, or taking up a hobby, or you know, like something in the real world near where you live in which you would meet people in a more random way, you know, not through the app, not through mediation, not through the computer, which has all your data, you know, but rather in real life, like people used to do. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That's obviously quite a radical thing to say that you shouldn't just meet people online. But I think a big part of that is we've nerfed the potential, or most of the potential for the pain of rejection by using social media and Tinder and Bumble and stuff like that. Because getting ghosted on a dating app is painful, but it's not as painful as walking up to somebody in a bar and them rebuffing your advances, especially as a guy. Remembering that 86% of women say that they want the man to be the one that makes the first move. Now, if you wait until the man does that in real life, the terror that goes through a guy's head before he has to walk up to a girl in a bar and say, "Hi, what's your name? Would you like me to buy you a drink?" That is akin to, like, jumping out of an airplane. And that selects for a very particular type of man as well. There is a subsection of men that are the ones that go up and do most of the asking, and there is a huge swath of them that just stand on the far side of the bar making shifty eye movement, desperately hoping that you're going to catch their eye at the same time so that they can sort of, I don't know, like motion you over or something.
- NPNina Power
No, sure, and I do talk about that, the changing fortunes of the pickup artists, you know, the fact that it's moved from real life to online, you know, and, and the, there's the riskiness of the early days where it was as you described. But, you know, also things like people used to meet their future spouses at work. And now, there's these, all these edicts about flirting or, you know, asking your coworkers out, right? And do people even work in offices anymore, or do they just sit at home, you know, on the computer? So the, the possibilities for meeting men and women ha- you know, men and women meeting have become, um, more difficult as well. They've become more restricted, they've become more paranoid, they've become more anxious and sensitive. So yeah, I mean, like obviously I'm not saying, you know, people who use apps are, are, are wrong, but I just mean it, it's definitely changed in some very negative ways. And I think on some level we have to admit the life is risk. Life is, you know, it, it does involve pain and rejection, you know? Everyone's been rejected. It's, of course it's horrible, right? But it's also something that makes you stronger, and you know, and, and if you... I think if people make themselves interesting and they, they have, you know, (laughs) like they read books and they have hobbies and they, you know, they look after themselves and they're good, they're visibly good with their friends and family, like that's really attractive, you know? And that, but I also would say that women, you know, are being encouraged too often to think that they must find the perfect man, right? And this is also really dangerous and destructive. Whereas actually, if what you want is a, a life and possibly a family with somebody who is stable, you know, kind, you know, it, it's not gonna be the s- uh, fantasy of an alpha. It's going to be a nice normal man who has all of these social ties and these forms of security and is thoughtful and loves you for who you are. So I think there might be a kind of pragmatic need for people to just think, "Well, what do I want? What do, what do I actually want from my life?" You know, instead of fantasizing that they're gonna marry a prince or whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
What did you learn about the manosphere and red pill?
- NPNina Power
Um, well, yeah, I suppose quite a lot, all these different stages that there are. Um, I looked, I was quite interested in this story of, um, Roosh, who's this pickup artist who's converted to Christianity, um, and has kind of turned his back on, you know, this, uh, this life of, uh, anonymous indiscriminate sex. And, you know, it opens up the question of whether, what was he looking for when he was doing that? You know, what d- what is actually going on in that kind of thing? I mean, it s- it seems a bit, um... Imagine a- an awkward conversation where you've, you've managed to, to pull someone and they've, they've put out, and then you are like, "Oh, actually I like you. I want to have a proper relationship. I should probably let you know I used these tricks I read in a book to get you to..." You know, like, that's, that's awkward, right? And Neil Strauss obviously talks about this as well. You know, it's, sex for its own sake is like a bit banal, actually. And, uh, so yeah, so I think there are, there are all these different kinds of pills, obviously, like (laughs) blue pill, red pill, purple pill, black pill. Black pill's pretty good.
- CWChris Williamson
God pill.
- NPNina Power
Uh, huh?
- CWChris Williamson
God pill.
- NPNina Power
The God pill, yeah. White pill, uh, clear pill, Curtis Yarvin. Um, so-Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, I thi- I think I was interested in what the forms of resentment actually were, like whether there was actually a material basis for the kinds of resentments that we would c- associate with men's rights activists, right? So, I was prepared to sort of take these grievances seriously, and some of them are kind of correct. You know, men do, uh, dominate the most dangerous jobs, for example, right? If we're talking about equality in the workplace, um, do we really want more women to, you know, work as tree surgeons or on oil rigs or whatever. Like, you know, there, there are obvious limits to when we talk about equality, you know, in the workplace, uh, and other areas of life. Um, you know, I, I think to go deep into male resentment is interesting. You do end up with, like, MGTOW, you know, on the one end, like these kind of neo-monks who are, like, men who are sort of, like, not religious necessarily, uh, but basically saying, "I don't want any part of this. I don't wanna go down the dating route. I can't be bothered. I think that women are gold diggers." Uh, you know, they, they point out that lots of men don't reproduce, and lots of famous men, um, don't have children, and they kind of celebrate this form of, like, I don't know, volcel, you know, voluntary celibacy.
- CWChris Williamson
You're now part of an illustrious group that stretches back
- 31:48 – 43:02
Why Men Joined MGTOW
- CWChris Williamson
through history.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Why did you find that most men joined MGTOW, or were there some common trends that you discovered for that?
- NPNina Power
I think some of them were definitely, um, upset by a particular relationship going south, and that this had kind of colored their impression of women as a whole, you know ? And I, I think y- y- you know, like I say, at the extremes, there are a very small number of women who do hate men, and they may be... And, and a very small number of men who, who do hate women. And they may think that they have good reason for doing so. I mean, obviously, if you're a woman who's been hurt all her life by, by her family or by men that she's met, you might have some ground for grievance, right? So I'm not denying that there is harm. I'm not denying that people are upset and, and, you know, with good reason, and sometimes, um, there is justified resentment and hatred. Um, but I actually think that's not the vast majority of people. I think those positions are very extreme, and the same would go for MGTOW. This is a very small group of men, um, you know, some of whom are just not interested in women, right? (laughs) And that's also fine. Um, you know, and, and obviously, the book focuses on heterosexuality and heterosociality, so I, so I explicitly say I'm not talking about gay men or gay women. Um, but I think the comparison with female separatism is quite interesting. You know, is it possible to live in a... Given that we live in a very mixed world, to live separately? You know, what does it mean to try to live whilst minimizing your contact with the opposite sex?
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a difference with how the women separatists of whatever, the 1970s, are framed versus the MGTOWs of the 2020s?
- NPNina Power
I mean, I think they're both maybe looked upon with some bemusement by the vast majority (laughs) of people. Um, I think they're very interesting ideas. I think there are always temptations or tendencies in human thought, and I'm sure at some point everyone has thought, "God, I wish I could live without the opposite sex (laughs) or something." And I mean, one of the interesting things I suppose I found out was, so sometimes men, if they start to sort of work on themselves as it were, they get fit, and they go to the gym. And, like, initially, for some of those men, it's about, um, becoming more attractive to women. But actually, the further they go down that route, the more they're just interested in looking after themselves for its own sake or hanging out with their bros or, you know, being part of a kind of, uh, masculine or male group. Um, and it, it stops becoming about women, actually, which paradoxically would probably make them more attractive, if you see what I mean. (laughs) But yeah, so I th- I, you know, there are different kind of stages and, and phases. But I think most people know and want to live in a mixed world. But I do think we might need to have a collective conversation about whether there should be more sex-segregated spaces, and whether it's actually better sometimes for men to spend time with men alone and women to spend time with women alone. And-
- CWChris Williamson
That brings up some, uh, bad histories though, right? Of men having, holding seats of power, not permitting women in to men's working clubs where important and commanding conversations were taking place.
- NPNina Power
Yes, absolutely. I'm not... I, I don't think there's a simple solution to this question at all. I think, you know, we... Women have sort of been in politics in the UK, or at least having representation at the, the highest level for only about 100 years. So, it's not been long, uh, and I think it's, it's not been an easy ride (laughs) either. Uh, I think there are very, very complicated metaphysical, legal, political, and philosophical conversations about what it means to live in a world where both men and women want s- to, you know, to speak about their own, um, position, right? At the highest levels. And want to have their needs and differences recognized and treated fairly in law. You know, there's a very ongoing contemporary conversation about what even the words men, man and woman mean, um, which is further complicating things. Um, so, but I wonder if there's a way which we could maybe revisit some of those questions and say, "Well, you know, maybe some of these places that we made into mixed things, maybe it was, maybe the, the, it's better if they, we move back to segregated times." Or-
- CWChris Williamson
But I just think, I, I think just enabling it, you know-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... without, without being given the label of whatever awful version of this from the past. Th- there's a big difference between having a high-class Westminster post House of Lords bar that only the guys can go into and saying, "I want to have a snooker club in, you know, the West End of Newcastle where I can go with my mates, and we can talk about..."... guy stuff. You know? There is, in many gyms now, there are women-only sections where girls can go and train. And that's because they presumably feel more comfortable just being around other women, and you think, "Okay, well, that's, that's cool." But if you were to open a male-only gym, I think that that might get a little bit more kickback. Can I just get you to flick your light on for me, Nina? Is that-
- NPNina Power
Oh, sure. (fingers snapping) Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Lovely. Thank you.
- NPNina Power
(laughs) That's right. Um, yeah, I mean, I think it's a, it's a complicated, um, conversation, right? And it's gotta be a collective one, but I also think there's a role for like tacit agreements. You know, like if we, if, if we... If a place is basically male-dominated, you know, we don't, you don't need to officially make it so, but if it is in practice more or less like that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNina Power
... then I think it should be left alone, and the same would go for women's places. And, you know, I mean, obviously people can privately associate with who they like. That's one of our great freedoms is, is, is freedom of association. And so, you know, and I, I, I just think it's kind of really important 'cause, you know, otherwise we end up all the time with, in a mixed world, and that can be quite difficult as well. And I think men and women both need time to themselves as well.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you learn about incels?
- NPNina Power
Um, yeah. So I, I, again, I try to sort of think a- think about it as sympathetically, you know. Again, this is a group of men who are demonized everywhere you look in the media, you know, that this, these sorts of, um, few high-proo- profile, so-called incel murders are often used to demonize the whole group and to say that anyone who, who reads incel forums or posts on these forums is, is therefore guilty by association, you know. And this is a common political tactic that we see all the time now. It's like, well, you know, you know this person who knows this person, or you read this, therefore, you know, you're sort of tainted. And it's a very bad political, um, and rhetorical gesture. But, so I basically say, well, in a way, what, what do the incels want, right? They, they want a girlfriend. Like, is that so awful? I mean... (laughs) You know, and actually people like Jordan Peterson, you know, who are very popular, very hated by the, by the left in general, actually, I think are actually good for, for women because they're saying to young men, "Stop blaming your mother. Stop blaming the fact that you don't have a girlfriend on women in general. Sort yourself out, tidy your room," and all of those basic things that like a father might say. Um, and actually, this is, this is much better. It gives people a sense of freedom and autonomy. It means that they're not reliant on other people for their happiness. And again, paradoxically, that would be, make it more likely for them to meet someone and have a, you know, that kind of life. So, um, yeah, I think the incels actually are very, uh, sympathetic in the main, you know. I think, uh, what... And there's a very good documentary called TFW No GF by Alex Li Moya, so That Feeling When No Girlfriend, where sh- and it's set in America, where she interviews a lot of these young men who post on incel forums and make memes and are actually really funny and really clever and inventive. And they, they live in like terrible places, like they live in really impoverished working class towns where all of the industry has gone, you know. And it, and it's really a question of class in a lot of ways. You know, you've got these liberal elites having a go at men living in deprived, dispossessed areas who can't afford to move out of their mum's basement, you know, going, "Ha-ha-ha. You know, look at these sad young men," right? And it's actually like, no, these men are like, not sad in that way, you know. They've already s- suffering and struggling, you know. Like, I don't know, this idea that you're sort of permitted to laugh at them is just kind of...
- CWChris Williamson
Well, there's something fundamental about that, right? That what you're laughing at is that as a man, one of the primary things that you should be able to do is attract women. That's why... that's why the insult of calling somebody an incel is supposed to sting, right? Primarily one of your functions as a man is to be able to attract women. And if you can't, that somehow makes you less of a man. It makes you kind of this sort of subgroup. Interesting what you say as well about Jordan Peterson. So recently he went on, uh, a podcast and they asked him about, uh, what does he think about the modern dating market? Some question to do with that, right? And typically, as I'm sure that you've become familiar with on Red Pill and Manosphere places, the typical answer that you would get or want to hear on those channels is, "Oh, it's all about hypergamy. Women are setting their sights too high. They are over-educated. They're over-employed. They're earning too much. They need to raise themselves back down. They need to lower their standards basically." And Jordan said exactly the opposite thing. He said about men, you know, "If you are consistently entering into interactions with women and all of the women have a problem, the problem isn't the women. The problem is you." Like you are-
- NPNina Power
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... the common denominator between all of those different situations. You're the thread that runs between them all, not the women. And that's a really unpopular thing to hear.
- NPNina Power
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And yet this is a guy that only three years ago was being lambasted as, you know, the darling of the Manosphere who was going to co-opt people into MGTOW and incel and objectifying women and so on. And you think, uh, you can't have it- (laughs) you can't have it both ways. Like the guy's either making men better or he's making men worse.
- NPNina Power
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And f- f- from what I see, he says things that are uncomfortable for people to hear, which is take some fucking personal responsibility for your outcomes in life.
- NPNina Power
Yeah, exactly, which is why I say that he's good for women, you know. That they, there is a kind of like feminist defense of Jordan Peterson, you know. And, and I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, but he's also kind of tapping into a kind of Christian tradition and, you know, a tradition of kind of morality and virtue which is also-
- CWChris Williamson
Monogamy.
- NPNina Power
Huh?
- CWChris Williamson
And monogamy.
- NPNina Power
And monogamy, yeah, which is also kind of eroded by the current culture, you know, which is consumerist and hedonistic, and, you know. So I think a lot of people are coming to the conclusion that there is something wrong with liberalism. You know, we all need to sort of look at what's happened (laughs) and where we're at and how we treat each other, um, and maybe revise some of these fantasies of freedom that we've been sold,
- 43:02 – 49:08
Does our Liberal Culture Satisfy Women?
- NPNina Power
yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that the sort of dominant liberal culture makes women unhappy?
- NPNina Power
I, I think in some cases, yes. I think it, it's, it's not obvious that the apex of female existence, um, involves being kind of like well-paid and lonely. And, you know, I, I mean, for anybody, 'cause, 'cause we're human beings, we're social beings, you know ? And, and so obviously I'm against this system in general, um, and I'm against it for men and I'm against it for women, you know ? And I think it's... Yeah, it's sad when we're not more sympathetic to each other, and we're not more in touch with each other, and we think that success is like getting a well-paid job in the city, you know, it's not-
- CWChris Williamson
That's the peak of what you're supposed to achieve in the modern era.
- NPNina Power
Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's just rubbish. And most people have a breakdown at some point anyway, 'cause they realize that it's rubbish. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
The, um... I had Greg McKeown on the show, author of Essentialism, and he's been paid to work with these huge companies, Disney executives, Nike execut- you know, the, the peak of the peak of the peak in terms of people that have been hard-charging, type A go-getters. He said he was working with this one executive who had said to him that, um, he'd been... He'd finally got the position that he wanted, board member at some huge company, and this guy had been doing, you know, 80-hour weeks for 20 years. And Greg sits down and they're gonna have this conversation, and he said, um, "My son won't talk to me." And Greg was like, "Well, I thought we were having this conversa- you've just made your board member thing." And he said, "Yeah, but my son's left the house. My son won't talk to me." And he's like, "Okay, um, what, w- what's the problem with this?" Like, "How, how can we move forward?" He said, "Well, it turns out that for the last 20 years, all I've been doing is working, and I've had my ladder leaned up against a wall that I really thought that I wanted to climb, and now it turns out that my ladder's leaning up against the wrong wall. And I now don't have a relationship with my son." And this guy broke down and said, "Well, I would give it all back if I could-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... have this relationship with my child." But you've missed it, and that child's now 20 years old or something, and that's gone. You don't get to have that relationship anymore.
- NPNina Power
Yeah, no, exactly. And I think a lot of people are realizing what's important in life, and it, it isn't work, it's your family and your friends and, you know, looking after yourself and enjoying nature and being outside, you know ? And I, I don't think we need more people to do more things, you know ? We need more people to do fewer things. (laughs) You know, like to sort of chill out. I mean, of course there's always economic pressures, you know ? And that's another side of it. We need to think about ways in which people can live and live well and have families if they want to have them, you know, without this kind of endless struggle and churn and, you know, just nightmare.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it that any male movement seems to get associated with the far right?
- NPNina Power
Yeah, this is, um, this is an interesting question. I, I don't directly talk about this, the political dimension, in the book, but I do that explicit- like, for good reason, which is to say I didn't wanna go down this whole route of discussing, you know, this, um, s- supposed association, but I think it reaches absolutely absurd levels. I don't think it's true, by the way. I don't thi- you know, I think this is a kind of left liberal smear. You know, I mean e- women who say that women exist are now called far right, for God's sake. You know, I mean this is like... The use of the words Nazi and fascist and far right are so removed from reality, and actually offensive historically. You know, the idea that anyone who disagrees with this very specific left liberal position, which was invented five minutes ago, is like somehow a member of the BNP or whatever, I mean, is insane, right ? And, uh, there are so many people who are now so politically dispossessed, including a lot of women, and like the whole of Mumsnet for example, right, are hardly, you know, uh, members of Stormfront or whatever. You know what I mean? It's like, it's mental. So, you know, there's a kind of general political problem with the rhetoric. But, you know, even something like NoFap, like this movement for, um, men who want to stop masturbating and watching, and stop watching porn, which I talk about in the book briefly, and I'm, you know, I think is a great idea and it seems really supportive. Um, that's been now designated a hate group, you know ?
- CWChris Williamson
You are kidding me.
- NPNina Power
No, no. And you're like, this is, this is absolutely mental, you know ? This, y-
- CWChris Williamson
NoFap (laughs) , NoFap has been designated a hate group.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
A bunch of men that are focusing on not touching their penis all day are a hate group. What do they hate other than their own penis?
- NPNina Power
Well, I suppose the implication might be that they, they use some of the same forums or that they, you know... I don't know, that they... That they must hate women because if you don't want to masturbate to horrible images of women on drugs, you know, being filmed, like therefore there's something wrong with you and you're some sort of misogynist. I don't know, it's mental, you know ? I think the other thing is like people need to... These groups, these sort of anti-hate group, groups, which are actually themselves hateful, and they need to create Nazis, right ? They need to say, you know, "More and more people are Nazis," 'cause that's just what they do. Like, they need there to be all of these apparently hate-filled people that there aren't, in fact. You know, there are just people who disagree, which is reality, you know ? Um, so yeah, you have this kind of like, uh, hatred production industrial complex, you know ? Where these, all these (laughs) people are running around going like, "These people hate." And, you know, and you're allowed to hate the people who hate, that's the other paradox of this.
- CWChris Williamson
So, is it a case the, that calling someone far right is now just a easy to accuse, difficult to get off you piece of slime that can be thrown at basically anybody that you seem to have a viewpoint which you're not very happy with?
- NPNina Power
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay. And that's, that's why men that decide to not engage with women, men that decide to do semen retention, the gym culture as well I've seen-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is associated with a sly, like a, a, a gateway to the f- alt-right, going to the gym.
- NPNina Power
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And you think, "Fucking hell." So you... I heard you talk, it's not in the book, but I heard you talk about the purity spiral on another show. Can
- 49:08 – 1:01:30
What is the Purity Spiral?
- CWChris Williamson
you explain that? 'Cause I was really interested.
- NPNina Power
Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not my idea. It's obviously been around for a long time. I mean, there are people-
- CWChris Williamson
But it's the first time that I heard it, so not obviously to me, uh-
- NPNina Power
No. Sure, but I just wanna say-
- CWChris Williamson
... which is why I needed you to tell me.
- NPNina Power
... I just wanna make it clear that it's like, I, you know, I didn't come up with it. Um, but yeah, so, so I suppose it's this idea that in, like, every group or every movement, um, uh, there, there comes a point at which participation is, is somehow appro- i- improved by becoming better at being part of that group, right? So let me put it this way, so like, a weak group... If you want to prove your credentials in a group, let's say a religious group, uh, you're part of a religious movement and there are rules and principles in the movement, those people who really want to do well would be very strict about those rules, right? They would be like, "I'm, I'm following these rules. I'm a better X than you." You know? "I'm a better cult member than you because I'm more adhering to the rules. Um, and to demonstrate my loyalty to these principles or these rules, I'm going to start expelling the people who are not living up to these standards." Right? So you create the out group. You're, like, you're in the in group and you start to create the group, you make the group stronger by becoming purer and purer, right? So you expel all of the members that have, you know, transgressed or they're not following the law to the letter, but only the spirit. So, so a lot of people have suggested that parts of the contemporary left have become like this. You know, that actually people's dedi- determination to adhere to the rules, whatever the rules are, these new mantras that we're all supposed to agree with, we're not supposed to question them. You just have to repeat them. Uh, this idea that there are, you know, some groups are more oppressed than others and we must kind of, you know, focus all our attention on the most oppressed, and here's the list of who are the most oppressed people. Um, and so some people get really fanatical about doing that, you know, like, "I want to be the best leftist activist." You know? "I want to prove my credentials." And in order to do that, then it would involve things like expelling people, you know, hounding people who disagree, you know, manifesting your loyalty to the group in the, i- i- and so on and so forth. Um, but it becomes like a kind of spiral because it sort of starts eating itself, you know, and, and some of these groups become like circular firing squads, you know, where it's like, "Who will be left standing?" You know? (laughs) 'Cause like everyone gets taken out.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a interesting insight from a guy that I had on the show where he said that an absurd ideological belief is less about the belief and a lot more about signaling to your in group that you are compliant and signaling to your out group that you are someone to be contended with. That people don't have ideas, ideas have people.
- NPNina Power
Yes. I think, uh, that's a very, um, i- you know, useful way of looking at it. And I think, um, I think it was Rob Henderson who came up with this luxury belief idea.
- CWChris Williamson
Shout out Rob Henderson. That's the Rob Henderson bell for today. Everybody loves that guy at the mo- he's hot. He's so hot right now.
- NPNina Power
Oh, I just want to cite him, you know, because if people come up with a good concept, you know, it's, it's, it's good to try and remember who said it. You know what I mean? 'Cause like all these things circulate. But anyway.
- CWChris Williamson
Shout out Rob. I told him about your book today.
- NPNina Power
Oh, really? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I sent him a photo, I sent him a photo of your book and I said, "You need to read this." And he said, "Looks great. Gonna read it." So.
- NPNina Power
Oh. That's, that's kind of you. Well, there you go. You know, so I think he was the one who popularized this idea of luxury beliefs, which is kind of what you're talking about, you know, so it's like, who can afford to say things that are manifestly absurd as a demonstration of loyalty, like, as you put it, to the in group and yeah. Um, so we need less of that and more, uh, nuanced discussion. More, more, uh, more recognition of, of the complexity of life actually. And, and yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Is asking men what they want a bit of a unique question? Because it seems to me that women don't really think about that mostly because for the most part, women, uh, men are the protagonists sexually in terms of relationships, and even if you look at the manosphere a lot of the time, they're not really that concerned with the focus on raising up or understanding men. They're concerned with women's biases and foibles and kind of pointing that out and making sure that they know about it.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, in the end what's maybe a more realistic way of looking at it is that what men want and what women a- want is, are deeply tied together, you know? It's not that men and women necessarily always want exactly the same thing, right? Because they're not exactly the same. But none of us would be here if there wasn't some kind of cooperation (laughs) and at least some of the time, you know, some form of coming together and some cooperation and some compatibility, however short-lived, right? Like, we're all the product of, you know, those kinds of encounters. You know? And hopefully it'll be better to encourage situations where people remained loyal, you know, looked after their children and all of those sorts of traditional things. You know? I don't think anything is gained by, you know, further eroding the family structure or, you know... So I, I think we do get on. I think it's a, it's a complicated game. I tried to talk about it in a lighthearted way. You know, I think there, there are lots of different games that men and women play all the time. You know, they're... And to reduce them just to the mating game or whatever is, is, is, um, you know, isn't true either. Like, it's not realistic. It's not like-
- CWChris Williamson
What like, what other games?
- NPNina Power
Well, just linguistic games, you know, conversations between friends. You know, not all of the time we spend with members of the opposite sex has anything to do with sex, you know? We might be in situations where we're, we're at work and we have to get along with people that we, you know, we might not otherwise spend time with, but we still have to have some form of, you know, playful (laughs) interaction. You know, and I, and I suppose I'm interested in a world that is, is, m- recognizes more of these ambiguities and these kind of complex and often poetic situations, and, and makes them lighthearted, right? Because men and women might be seen as the solution to each of the sex's problems, right? We might think that our quest for meaning will culminate in meeting the appropriate member of the opposite sex, but, but neither men or women hold the secret to the solution of the universe, right? It's that, it's not like one party knows what's going on and the other doesn't.... like, neither men or women really know what's going on. (laughs) It's like a collective process of trying to work it out together. So, in that sense, like, it is kind of absurd, and it is kind of cosmic, and it can be really nice and fun and playful. It doesn't have to be grim and suspicious and, you know, as if you're trying to crack some kind of medieval code, you know. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting. I, um, I really don't know sort of what... I don't know what situation has occurred where so much humor has been lost from society in, like, such a, a short amount of time. And it's not... E- even if you take it out of, uh, talking about play and games and stuff, even if you take it out of non-mating and put it back into mating, stuff like flirting-
- NPNina Power
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... as a, a function, a really important function for young guys and young girls to learn how to effectively and attractively communicate with the opposite sex. You know, if you're in a place of work, now, that's a no-no, and there's a lot of articles that I've read online talking about why men should basically never approach women. I've spoken to guys, this was a real eye-opener to me, I spoke to a, a guy, mm, 18 months ago, uh, who was 20 years old, and we were in a bar, and I was saying, "Hey man, like, the two good-looking girls over there, should we, shall we go up and speak to them?" And he honestly looked like I'd suggested that we go and murder them.
- NPNina Power
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And he was like, "No, no, m- dude, no way. No way." "Wh- what do you mean? Like, it's just, they're not, (laughs) they're not fucking Medusa. It's just, there's two girls."
- NPNina Power
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, he couldn't believe it, and he was like, "No man, I've been told, I've been told, like, do not, do not approach a woman if she doesn't make the first move."
- NPNina Power
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I thought, well, I mean, there's a lot of different reasons about why the population crisis may be occurring, and that this may be the time on the planet with the most number of people that there's ever going to be, and maybe it's all because of that. Maybe it's just because men are shitting themselves and not going up to speak to women anymore.
- NPNina Power
(laughs) Yeah, maybe. I, I... (laughs) I think, yeah, I, it's... Yeah, I think we all have to ask ourselves, like, who benefits from a world in which men and women are too afraid to speak to each other, right? It's not us. It's not men and women who benefit from that. It's other people who are gonna make money off your anxieties, who are gonna be able to control you, who are gonna be ab- to feed you media narratives that tell you that this sex is horrible, and this sex is horrible, and this group is horrible. Do you know what I mean? It's a way of controlling, I think, um, interaction as such, you know? Like, for example, with touch, there are loads of different ways of touching people. Some cultures are really tactile. You know, Britain is not a very tactile country. Uh, but if you have, e- even on top of that, if you have a kind of suspicion or a paranoia about how touch might be perceived, like, "Oh, what if that person perceives it as a sexual thing when it's not?" You know? And so basically, you end up with a world in which everyone is too afraid to do anything, right? But this is a terrible world, right? Imagine the most afraid person, hypothetical person, the person who wants the most safety, who never wants to be in any risk, that have never taken any, never confront danger. Like, that is a bad world, right? And we don't want the world to be modeled on the fear of this hypothetical person. Right? So there has to be this kind of gray area which is open, yeah, to misunderstanding, people making mistakes. You know, that's why Christian culture makes more sense, because it's like saying that everybody's flawed, everybody's broken, right? No one's perfect. Um, people make mistakes, right? We're all capable of transgressing. But at the same time, we can also forgive each other. We can also ask for forgiveness from each other, from God. We can atone for our sins. We can become better people. You know, this is why I talk about goodness in the book. Like, it has to be possible for men to be good, you know. Ideally, we all want a world in which we are all better people, you know, and it is possible to improve in loads of different ways, right? Rather than simply saying, "Oh, no, this entire category of people is just doomed to be, you know, awful."
- CWChris Williamson
It's like a original sin, puritanical approach.
- NPNina Power
Um, yeah, exactly. But again, without the forgiveness and atonement and all of those things that are possible. So it's like, it's, it's awful. It's like, the worst bits of Christianity with none of the good bits, you know? (laughs) And these people don't even understand that they're sort of acting in this fanatical way, you know? So, I think we just have to get on with it, and I think a lot of it is gonna be breaking away from the internet, you know. I think there's gonna be a third Summer of Love, people are gonna come together, maybe this year, after two years of, you know, this pandemic nonsense, we will, um, you know, have a big party, and-
- 1:01:30 – 1:15:54
What Women Want Vs What Society Wants
- CWChris Williamson
what women want from a man in a relationship and then what it's sort of...... and what's encouraged to be signaled publicly, and popular views of masculinity.
- NPNina Power
Um, yeah. I mean, and as I say, I don't think what men and women want is necessarily that different in the end, right? I think everybody wants to, to, to be good, to be, you know, recognized, to, um, help their friends and family, you know, to, to make enough money to live, and, and so on. And, and have a family if that's what they want, and this, this kind of thing, right? I think, so what humanity wants is more or less the same. Um, what men and women want might be slightly different in some ways, but it's compatible, okay.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, I mean, from a, from a female's perspective-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that it seems quite in vogue at the moment to shit on men-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and yet these are women who ostensibly need to find a man that they can love, that they can live in the same fucking house as, that they are attracted to, a lot of the time, the sorts of men that they are criticizing heavily online.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. I mean, th- uh, this, this I have to admit, I do find sli- slightly flummoxing. Like, I don't understand what is going on where these women are running around, like, hating, actively hating men or particular male behaviors, but they themselves are participating in that culture, you know? Like I say, if you want to find a good man, they do exist. They just don't exist on like, you know, uh, on city dating apps, right? Because y- the kinds of men you're gonna find on there that you might be attracted to are gonna be playing the field, right? They're not necessarily going to be wanting to, m- you know, settle down with you, right? And, and surely there has to be more understanding of that, like the reality of that. It's naive. I mean, I've been naive before, but it's naive to think that you can go on these dating apps and be like, "Right, well I want a husband. That's what I want, so that's what I'll get." It's like, "No, you won't."
- CWChris Williamson
It feels like the world's been made sort of increasingly pure and malleable to the stage where everyone has unrealistic expectations about what life can deliver them now. So women want men to avoid a toxic gaze, but also 86% of women say that they want a man to make the first move or men are told that they shouldn't objectify women. Meanwhile, 50 Shades of Gray and OnlyFans makes millions off the exact same dynamic.
- NPNina Power
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things we have to think about in the internet age is this question of attention, right? So it's like, where can you get your attention from? It should ideally be enough, if we want a monogamous culture, for one person to give you their attention. I'm not saying that one person will be sufficient for all your needs. You might need friends to talk to about certain things, you might need other, you know, family, th- you know, there's lots of different ways in which you, people spend their time. It doesn't all have to be with this one person who can fulfill all their needs. And in fact, that kind of expectation is part of the problem, the idea that you're gonna find, like, the one, you know? It's like, no, you might find someone who's, like, good enough, and then you build a life, and it would be in the building of the life that the love is real, if you see what I mean. It's not like all at once. That's why it's wrong to think about it in this consumerist way, as if you're buying a product. You know, people are not products. You know, they're complicated, flawed, difficult, brilliant things, you know, and it, it's more about the decision about, uh, the mutual project. Like, if you find someone who wants to do the same thing as you for the next 40 years, fantastic, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
That's, that's presuming that there's something sacred in the relationship though.
- NPNina Power
But there is. I mean, there should be. You know, a relationship with someone is, is not a product. It's with a y- everybody is unique. It would be with that specific person that you've encountered, however you've met them, and that you've both come to this kind of agreement, you know? So it's both pragmatic and magic at the same time. Do you know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNina Power
And it might be really difficult. That's the other thing. You can't bail at the first sign of difficulty, you know? That, and you can't return your, your mobile phone. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
This, this is what I meant when I said earlier on that women are being encouraged to adopt typically masculine traits in order to deal with difficulties in life-
- NPNina Power
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because th- that sort of shielded, walled off approach, get over your last boyfriend by getting under the next one, be a boss bitch, clap back, don't settle for less, men are trash, where all the good guys at, like, you know-
- NPNina Power
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... they're just, this, it's just th- this perpetual fucking meme farm-
- NPNina Power
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of things that tell women not to settle because the Dis- Disneyfication of relationships has presumed that any minor inconvenience means that there's something wrong with this. You have an international, a global dating market where you can, with a 30 pounds per year Tinder Gold membership, deposit yourself anywhere on the planet and decide to start matching with the people that are in that region. Meanwhile, the relationships that I see most of the young guys and girl... I, I run nightclubs, right, for 18 to 21-year-olds. Most of the relationships that I see those people are having, they're masturbating with somebody else's body and neither of them know it. That's what's happening.
- NPNina Power
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't disagree, and I, you know, to actually have an intimate sexual relationship with somebody, it, y- you know, it can't be done quickly necessarily, right? It, it's, it's a complex thing, and it's, like, awkward and difficult and potent- but potentially amazing, and you know, this kind of fast culture mitigates against those sorts of forms of intimacy. And at the same time, everyone's afraid of being intimate, you know? I mean, I was speaking to people of, younger people about dating apps and th- and this young guy who's very successful on them actually was telling me, like, the one rule is that don't catch feelings, you know? Like, that, that, that actually starting to care about someone is, like, the worst thing you can do. And I was like, "That's terrible." What, so you, you go out with somebody and you really like them and you, you know, you find them attractive and, but, but to express that or to say, "Oh, actually, I really like you," that's somehow a weakness?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that's a, a byproduct of a liberal sexual society because inevitably you're going to have lots and lots of sexual partners or m- multiple sexual partners throughout your dating time. And if that's the case, you're going to end up just using the person transactionally, and then inevitably you're going to move on, so the protection against being ghosted and the pain of feeling rejection is to never allow yourself to care, and then, you know, even with-
- NPNina Power
But that's like training everyone to be a psychopath.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- NPNina Power
You know, I mean, this is like, this is very dangerous. This is awful. We-
- CWChris Williamson
Meanwhile, asking, "Where's all of the empathy gone in the world?"
- NPNina Power
Yeah, I mean, we should care about each other. (laughs) I mean, like, that's, that's what being human is, you know? If we regard everything transactionally, then we're just machines, and we're not machines. Like, they might want you to be machines, but we're not, actually.
- CWChris Williamson
Your, uh, left-leaning background comes, comes through with, with this sort of stuff-
- NPNina Power
Uh-
- 1:15:54 – 1:24:35
Masculine Traits We Need to Retain
- NPNina Power
eat bugs and live in a pod and, you know, then you're safe. But that's not-
Episode duration: 1:25:44
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