The Cycle You Don’t Realise You’re In - Alain de Botton (4K)

1. 0:00 – 8:22

   Where Do Bad Inner Voices Come From?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Alain de Botton, welcome to the show.

   2. ABAlain de Botton0:01

      Thank you so much.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:03

      Where do bad inner voices come from?

   4. ABAlain de Botton0:05

      (inhales deeply) Well, (sighs) the way I like to think about it is that an inner voice is always an outer voice that got internalized. You know, we're very porous people. The way in which we're spoken to becomes the way in which we speak to ourselves. I mean, if that d- if that sounds too weird, think of language, right? All of us, um, arrive in the world not speaking any language, and by the age of three, four, five, six, seven, you know, we'll have learned a lot of words. But the fascinating thing about human beings is, um, we don't know we're learning. So we can be doing other stuff, like, you know, doing handstands in the garden or drawing buttercups in the kitchen, and we're becoming expert grammarians. Hundreds of words are entering our minds. Complex, um, grammatical constructions are entering our minds. Now, the way I like to think about it is that that language analogy, um, holds true for emotional life as well. So at the same time as we're learning a language of, you know, words and declensions, we're also learning a language of emotions. Um, we're learning things like, what's a man like? What's a woman like? What happens if you give someo- something to someone? What happens if you're vulnerable? What happens if you want to play? What happens if you say no? What happens if you say yes? All of these are the syntax, th- they comprise the syntax of our emotional lives, and, um, it's an invisible syntax just as our grammatical syntax is invisible. But it's there, and it will operate throughout our lives, and it will be immensely hard to change. I mean, you, you know what it's like if you're. You know, if you grew up speaking English and then you wanna s- learn a foreign language, you suddenly wanna learn Italian, well, good luck to you. You're gonna be- you're learning a long time. It's not impossible, can be done, but I think it's helpful to think of how hard it is because sometimes people get very impatient in their attempts to change things about themselves.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:59

      Mm.

   6. ABAlain de Botton1:59

      They go things like, you know, "I wanna change how I relate to people, um, in relationships," say. "Uh, and I've read a book, and I've, I've been to three therapy sessions, and, um, I'm really annoyed. Nothing works." You wanna go, okay, imagine this was Italian.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:13

      (laughs)

   8. ABAlain de Botton2:14

      So you've, you've, you've, you've looked at a book in Italian, you've taken three classes, and you don't speak fluent Italian, and you're complaining. So, we do need some modesty here, uh, just in order to be properly ambitious. I mean, as you know, you know. The, the, the, the root cause of sort of early despair and early retirement from things is a, a false picture of what success demands in an area, and I think in the area of emotional improvement or maturation, we sometimes let ourselves down by thinking it's gonna have an ease which it won't have.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:45

      It's interesting thinking about how language shapes our experience of emotions and our experience of the world, that German, for instance, has a colorful number of ways to describe certain emotions that you can't in other. And you said, well, does the fact that we have the word for it almost unlock that emotion in a way, allows us to do self-investigation?

   10. ABAlain de Botton3:05

       Yes, I, I think, uh, you know, philosophers, philosophers watching this, philosophers of language may have, um, a- a- arguments prone, you know, it's, it's a big thing, but I definitely feel that the more words we have, the more we can attend to what we feel, and in some cases, the more we can feel. Um, y- you know, I, I remember, I remember learning the word anxiety when I was a teenager, um, and thinking, "Wow, that's a really useful word." Probably nowadays people learn anxiety a lot earlier, but, you know, in those days, um, it was a fascinating word to learn. And the more one's vocabulary stretches, the more you're able to put a flag in bits of your psyche that are perhaps painful, and I think if you think about why people go to psychotherapy or, or even frankly what motivates a lot of friendship, it's somebody else helps to give you a vocabulary-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Mm.

   12. ABAlain de Botton3:55

       ... for bits of your mind and bits of your experience that have not till now, um, you know, that have alluded definition. And that definition is not merely, you know, it's n- not merely a fancy thing, it's, it's a lifesaving thing, because the more you can define, um, the easier life gets. Um, Freud speculated that the, uh, the, the, the origins of language lie in an ability to bear frustration, so that if a child can think, um, you know, "I'm currently frustrated, but, you know, Mummy's coming back," and it, I've got... and, and the person's got those words-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:34

       Mm.

   14. ABAlain de Botton4:35

       ... then that can help you to bear missing and, and also bear excitement or, you know, a- all sorts of things. Things can become more bearable the more you can put them into language. And I think, you know, (clears throat) adults know this. When we, we go about journaling, right, you know, what, why, why is it so helpful to journal, um, to... You know, 'cause we, we know it is, all research shows that it is. Um, what is it about translating a feeling into a word for that feeling that's helpful? And I think it tames, it, um, contains, and it narrows the spread of difficult emotions.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:13

       It's very ephemeral, right? You've got these thoughts up here moving around, floating about, and then they have to be concretized.

   16. ABAlain de Botton5:19

       Mm.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:20

       And it, you're right, it almost feels like it squeezes it through an aperture of some kind. You say, "Okay, this is what I meant by that." It's not this notion.

   18. ABAlain de Botton5:28

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson5:28

       It's not this sort of ambient so- it's somebody shouted a, a noise in the next room.

   20. ABAlain de Botton5:33

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson5:33

       It's like, oh, no, it's here.

   22. ABAlain de Botton5:34

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:34

       I can touch it.

   24. ABAlain de Botton5:34

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson5:34

       You can see it.

   26. ABAlain de Botton5:35

       Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And, and, you know, think of, think of relationships, couples. The more their vocabulary for what they're going through increases, the more they can say, you know, "I'm feeling this. I'm feeling... you know, when you do that, I feel this," et cetera. And the enemy, you know, the, the sort of normal word is people say communication, but it's really language.

   27. CWChris Williamson5:56

       Mm.

   28. ABAlain de Botton5:56

       It's, it's putting language to, to feelings, and so much goes wrong in life because...... we're unable to do it, it start- it starts with ourselves. We can't do it with ourselves. Um, there's a useful phrase that psychotherapists use, to what, disassociation. It's a fascinating concept. What- what would it mean to disassociate? And the way it's understood, so- therapeutically is that you could feel an emotion, it's so difficult, tricky in some way, and you then stop feeling it. You- you disassociate from the feeling that- that's in you.

   29. CWChris Williamson6:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ABAlain de Botton6:27

       It's still in you, but you're no longer registering it. Tricky, tricky. And the argument is always the more you can associate, um, and the less you can disassociate, the better off you will be. Um, but look, there are many bits of life that are unbearable to us. Let's f- let's remember this. Um, and there's a wonderful quote in Middlemarch, George Eliot, big fat 19th century novel, where she says, "If we could properly register the sound of, the sounds, the full sounds of life, um, we would lose our minds from the full richness of existence." In other words, if you were sensitive to everything that's around you, you would sort of go mad. Y- you know, and I think if we think about what madness is so-called, you know, what colloquially called madness, if y- if you think of people with severe mental illness, very often what hap- what has happened is that their ability to sequence thoughts is gone. Everything is coming at them, and they can't grade thoughts, they can't say, "This thought must go away now." You know, so they'll go, "I made a mistake 15 years ago," and if you're balanced, you'll go, "Well, that was 15 years ago," and it's just, it's not- it's not a problem. We can- we- we don't have to have it pressing down. Um, if your- if your reason is- is buckling-
2. 8:22 – 22:31

   Healing a Negative Inner Voice

   1. CWChris Williamson8:22

      What's your advice for how people can heal a negative inner voice? We've got this odd artifact that we've carried with us.

   2. ABAlain de Botton8:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:30

      This inheritance of our life, but kind of almost some previous life of ours.

   4. ABAlain de Botton8:34

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:36

      Where should people begin if they want to have a more friendly inner voice?

   6. ABAlain de Botton8:41

      Such a good question. I'd say you have to start by finding the inner voice 'cause it doesn't announce itself as an inner voice. So how are we gonna... You know, we're not- we're not talking here about literally hearing voices. Some people do, but we're not talking about that here. What- what we're talking about is a way of speaking to yourself or a way of, you know, way of conducting yourself in your own mind that owes more to something from outside than from inside, and that is more negative, or you can put it this way, unfair to you and your chances, your hopes, et cetera. So how do we- how do we detect this is even going on? 'Cause I don't think it's necessarily obvious. Here, I think that it's quite helpful to get people to do what are called sentence completion exercises, where you start off with a stub sentence, and then you have an ellipsis, dot, dot, dot. So, men are, women are, life is, I am, I want-

   7. CWChris Williamson9:37

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ABAlain de Botton9:38

      ... if dot, dot, dot, because dot, dot, dot. And you say to people, right, "Here's a list-"

   9. CWChris Williamson9:42

      These things.

   10. ABAlain de Botton9:44

       "... without thinking too much," right? Important, an important prompt, without thinking too much, just say the first thing comes into your head, men are, women are, life is, I am, et cetera. Um, or- or even beginnings of stories, story completion exercises. When I meet someone that I dot, dot, dot, just finish- finish that sentence. And what people will come out with is fascinating. They'll go, you know, "Men are cruel." Wow, wow, wow, men are cruel, are they? You know, a person might even be surprised that they've said that.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ABAlain de Botton10:13

       And you say, "Okay, where does that come from? Where, what- what led you to believe that?" And often what you'll find is a story that owes more to something outside than something inside. You know, or, um, you know, "When- when I meet someone, what will happen is dot, dot, dot," you know, um, "They'll be very friendly to me, then they'll turn against me." Wow, wow, where did that come from? It's- it's going to be a specific story in the past that, you know, is- is being carried forward.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:44

       Isn't it interesting that we're talking about maybe the thing people identify with most, you know, the texture of their own experience, the landscape of their- of their inner mind? But you're then saying, well, this may not fully be self-generated. This might be something which you've absorbed, y- from the past, from society, from norms, from cultures-

   14. ABAlain de Botton11:03

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:03

       ... from the way that you've compensated for past traumas, et cetera-

   16. ABAlain de Botton11:06

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson11:07

       ... or just habits.

   18. ABAlain de Botton11:08

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson11:09

       But it brings up an interesting question, which is, okay, so who are you? Where are you in this? Are you that voice?

   20. ABAlain de Botton11:17

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson11:17

       In some ways you are-

   22. ABAlain de Botton11:18

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson11:18

       ... because you're inexorably linked to all of the experiences you've had.

   24. ABAlain de Botton11:21

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson11:22

       But then we have this sort of transcendent us, which is better, it's the better us.

   26. ABAlain de Botton11:26

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson11:27

       If only I could, it's the me without the compensation, the trauma-

   28. ABAlain de Botton11:32

       Right.

   29. CWChris Williamson11:32

       ... the et cetera.

   30. ABAlain de Botton11:33

       Such a good question. You know, we're not... There- there's sometimes been this idea of, you know, the real me that is separate from everybody else. We are penetrated by society. You know, think of how we're speaking, right? We're using words as we speak to one another. Every one of those words is both spoken by us and was made by other people long before we were even a rumor in anyone's mind, right? We are s- we are penetrated by society. Every one of the words that I am using is the result of generations and generations of people who've used those words, refined their meaning, et cetera, et cetera, and then given them to me.
3. 22:31 – 28:14

   Why Do We Struggle to Fully Connect With Our Emotions?

   1. CWChris Williamson22:31

      do you think we struggle to connect with our emotions fully?

   2. ABAlain de Botton22:35

      Um, come on, let's be honest here with the audience and, you know, we know what emotions are like. They're not just lovely, cuddly things. They're absolutely terrifying a lot of the time. Um, think of what it takes... Think about love, right? So, people... We think that people spend their lives looking for love, and half true, that's a half truth. They spend a good deal of time running away from love as well in all sorts of forms. We are as assiduous in our escape from love as we are in our pursuit, perhaps more so. Why? Because it's terrifying. It's especially terrifying if you come from a childhood or a- a- a- a young world where there was some kind of disruption in your attachments, in your, you know, in your experience of love. Um, the next time you then meet love as an adult, half of you is just wanting to run away, and I think people don't still not fully appreciate enough the- the strength with which we are going to resist love if our earliest experience of it was in any way, in any way difficult, um, and this explains a great deal of the misery of the world.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:57

      It's very interesting to think about how much we try and push away the thing that we're also wanting, like how we are complicit in creating the scenario that we're so terrified of having happened. I've been thinking a lot about, um, second order emotions and third order emotions. So, um, you have a thing that happens. You feel agitated, and then you begin to tell yourself a story and you become stressed at your agitation-

   4. ABAlain de Botton24:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson24:19

      ... and then you become resentful at your stress about your agitation-

   6. ABAlain de Botton24:22

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:22

      ... and then you become anxious about... And I... that additional layering-

   8. ABAlain de Botton24:27

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:27

      ... uh, this, you know, kernel-

   10. ABAlain de Botton24:29

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:29

       ... that we began with-

   12. ABAlain de Botton24:30

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:31

       ... with regards to the emotion sort of explodes out-

   14. ABAlain de Botton24:33

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:33

       ... and before you know it, you're feeling an emotion that's not only the thing that started-

   16. ABAlain de Botton24:37

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson24:37

       ... but it's an entire universe away.

   18. ABAlain de Botton24:39

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:40

       And this is now the problem-

   20. ABAlain de Botton24:41

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson24:41

       ... not this.

   22. ABAlain de Botton24:42

       Yeah. That's right. And- and-...I'm not sure if I understand you fully, but is it- is it really the case that you are not accepting the- the primary emotion? You know, so let's say, uh, you go somewhere, it should be nice, you're disappointed. You can't be disappointed. It's meant to be nice. You can't- you can't accept that disappointment and then you're angry with yourself for feeling disappointed.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:04

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ABAlain de Botton25:04

       Um, and then, you know, and- and on it, whereas if one could just go, "Okay, maybe it's- it's all right to be disappointed." I mean, it's not- it's not brilliant, but- but there it is. Or, "I'm feeling sad. Okay, well that's not... wouldn't be what I wanted, but let me not be sad that I'm sad-"

   25. CWChris Williamson25:19

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ABAlain de Botton25:19

       "...or angry that I'm sad."

   27. CWChris Williamson25:20

       I think this is why we have certain signature emotions that, uh, feel like home base.

   28. ABAlain de Botton25:24

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson25:24

       There's ones that we're intimately familiar with and there's ones that scare us a lot more.

   30. ABAlain de Botton25:29

       Yeah.
4. 28:14 – 36:01

   The Danger of Intellectualising Emotions

   1. CWChris Williamson28:14

      of intellectualizing challenges of emotion for smart people? People that like to read and consume YouTube channels like yours or podcasts like mine, and would like to investigate ourselves-

   2. ABAlain de Botton28:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson28:27

      ...we want to understand ourselves and the world around us, and maybe we've even got the theory from evolutionary psychology that explains why this is adaptive and- and- and ancestrally we are made up of blah, blah, blah, blah. How... how much is that a prophylactic against us actually having to feel things and how can we better break through this intellectualizing of emotions and rationalizing of them away?

   4. ABAlain de Botton28:53

      Let's start with compassion. You know, we are the way we are, you know, for poignant reasons, not, you know, we didn't get to be that way... You know, think of a- think of a bookish child. You know, think of a child who's reading a lot. Um, often it's 'cause life's- life around is quite difficult. Now, it's great to read, it's good to read, et cetera, but if you spend all your time in books, um, that's often a sign things are- things are challenging. And so often people who excel at intellectual pursuits, et cetera, are in flight from an overwhelming situation. Um, I'd wish them well, um, in... that in time, the overwhelming situation could get a little less intense and they could get a little more of reality into their-

   5. CWChris Williamson29:40

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ABAlain de Botton29:40

      ...intellectual world. I mean, I'm describing myself. Perhaps you... Y- y- you know, you- you want to try and see reality for what it is, and if you're warding it off with intellectual structures, um, you know, let's- let's say thank you to those structures. I think- I think it's really important whenever- whenever you look at people doing stuff that seems a bit suboptimal or a bit strange, they're reading too much, they're jogging too much, they're trying to make too much money, whatever, um, that they're feeling too much, they're feeling too little, all of- all of these departures from so-called health normality, et cetera, always ask yourself, "Why are they doing it?" And it's normally a defense. It is a defense against a situation that was very difficult at some point. They learnt that defense and even though it would be optimal now to let go of that defensive structure, they're still clinging onto it because that's what feels safe. It feels safe to make jokes all the time, it feels safe to be very serious all the time.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:34

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ABAlain de Botton30:34

      It makes... I- it feels safe to be depressed, it feels safe to give up, um, it feels safe to try and win at all costs, including your own health, et cetera. All- all these are...... defensive structures that once kept us safe, that I think in order to evolve we almost wanna say, "Thank you. Thank you to your younger self for working this out."

   9. CWChris Williamson30:54

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ABAlain de Botton30:54

       "For finding a way of coping with reality." But, but could we learn to cope in a slightly different way?

   11. CWChris Williamson30:59

       So great. W- I'm interested just taking that one step further and the difference between knowing ourselves intellectually and knowing ourselves emotionally. Uh, I think even I- I've, in my less equanimous moments, uh, when I do journaling-

   12. ABAlain de Botton31:15

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson31:16

       ... uh, I find myself writing more of an essay than a personal inquiry.

   14. ABAlain de Botton31:22

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:22

       And, uh, yeah, the difference between knowing ourselves intellectually and knowing ourselves emotionally, again for the cerebrally minded-

   16. ABAlain de Botton31:29

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:29

       ... praying at the altar of cognitive horsepower people-

   18. ABAlain de Botton31:32

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson31:33

       Um-

   20. ABAlain de Botton31:34

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:34

       ... it's a coping mechanism. It's a- a way to distance yourself from this.

   22. ABAlain de Botton31:38

       Yes, and I think, I think our minds, it- it's- it's- it is much easier to, um, have the- the headline than the meat of the topic. And very often we- we reach a sort of, uh, an uncomfortable state of half-knowing ourselves, and we think, "Oh, I've- I've covered it. I know in my childhood there was this, and you know, then there was this, then there was that." And you- you've kinda got a headline, uh, tension with my dad, or you know, tricky with my mom, whatever it is, and we think, "Oh, I've got that. I've got that. I know it now."

   23. CWChris Williamson32:12

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ABAlain de Botton32:13

       Let's go back to the- the Eastern, you know, Enso Circle, right? And the East says meditate for hours repeatedly on the thing that looks obvious, the thing that you know. So they're saying the whole of life is that circle, so look at that circle and keep coming back to it, and the more you look at it, the more you will see in it. Now the Western, uh, approach is a bit- bit, uh, is too impatient. It'll say, "All right, yeah, it was tense with my dad, I know that." I go, "Hang on, hang on, hang on, that's an Enso of its own." I- it was tense with my dad. We- you could meditate around that for, you know, an hour a day-

   25. CWChris Williamson32:51

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ABAlain de Botton32:52

       ... or an hour a week, or whatever it is. You can keep coming back to that. It's never... There are so many things still to be discovered there, it's not dead. And so I think, I'd also want to excite, you know, those who are listening to think, "Okay, I think I know something. Do I really know it? Might I go back there?"

   27. CWChris Williamson33:08

       Mm-hmm.

   28. ABAlain de Botton33:08

       Um, our- our real experiences tend to be so much richer than our work-a-day sense of them. Um, think about, think about a holiday, right? Say, have you ever been to Greece? Oh, yeah, I went to Greece. Um, all right, have you been to Santorini? Yeah, I've been to Santorini. Okay, so- so we think we've covered that one, you know. The person's been to Santorini. Hang on.

   29. CWChris Williamson33:30

       (laughs)

   30. ABAlain de Botton33:30

       First of all, our minds are amazing mechanisms of capture, you know, we've got cameras around, sound equipment, et cetera. Nothing beats the human mind for capturing absolutely everything. Um, often the time to explore this is- is sort of twilight, um, of- of your mind as you're going to sleep or waking up. If you say to yourself, "Yeah, Santorini, what- what was that like? What was it- what was it really like?" And you realize, oh my God, I remember there was a tiled hallway that led to a blue door, and I actually remember there was a flower in a little vase, and there was light coming in from, I think it must've been from the left, and actually if I looked to the right there was a little window, et cetera. And it's all there, it's all in your mind just waiting to be asked, waiting... This is the famous... Can I talk about Proust?
5. 36:01 – 43:06

   Letting Go as an Obsessive Person

   1. CWChris Williamson36:01

      the obsessive person who wants to learn to let go a little more? A lot of what I see in the circles that I move in is a need for control, a desire to limit down the potential paths that the future could go down-

   2. ABAlain de Botton36:15

      Yep.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:15

      ... to sort of, uh, constrain how unpredictable reality could be.

   4. ABAlain de Botton36:19

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson36:19

      And, uh, I think the optimization, life-hacking, productivity world-

   6. ABAlain de Botton36:24

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson36:25

      ... is very much a part of this, plus a denial of death. If I can fit more life into less time then-

   8. ABAlain de Botton36:28

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson36:28

      ... maybe it's kind of like living longer.

   10. ABAlain de Botton36:30

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:31

       Um, but yeah, that- that need to control, that obsessive sort of, uh, requirement-

   12. ABAlain de Botton36:39

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:40

       ... to be able to wrangle reality as you wish.

   14. ABAlain de Botton36:42

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson36:42

       Can people learn to take their hands off the wheel a little bit more easily?

   16. ABAlain de Botton36:47

       Well, I think...I mean, I think, um, the simple answer is that these people are running away from something, um, which is painful and difficult, et cetera, and they're not allowing themselves to think about it. They're not even allowing it inside consciousness. So think of the, think of mania, you know, when, when we say, "So-and-so is in a manic mood," or, "So-and-so is doing something manically," what we really mean is that they're doing something in order not to do something else, normally not think about something or feel something. And we all end up in certain, uh, points in manic states where, you know, we're, we're scrubbing the kitchen just a little bit too assiduously, or we're jogging a bit too hard, or we're, uh, scrolling on our phones a bit too much. And really the question to ask ourselves at that time is a very simple one, which is, if you weren't able to do what you're doing now, what might you need to think about or to feel? And the answer's there waiting for you, if you can, if you can bear it, so f- could be a very, very awkward question to ask yourself. In other words, you know, if you weren't able to clean the kitchen manically or go jogging, et cetera, but you have to sit with something, what, what do you need to sit with... You know, the old saying, you know, "Don't just sit there, do something. Don't just sit there and think, do something." Well, imagine, you know, don't just do something-

   17. CWChris Williamson38:04

       (laughs)

   18. ABAlain de Botton38:05

       ... and sit there and think. Reverse it. You reverse it, and what is it that you need to think about?

   19. CWChris Williamson38:10

       Yeah.

   20. ABAlain de Botton38:12

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson38:12

       Yeah. Uh, the coping mechanisms that we have and the inventive ways that we come up with alchemizing and, and justifying... Well, a lot of the time, uh, people will say, "Better to be addicted to the gym than be addicted to drugs." I don't think that's a particularly controversial statement.

   22. ABAlain de Botton38:30

       Yeah, if that's, if that's the binary choice, then-

   23. CWChris Williamson38:32

       Yes, of course.

   24. ABAlain de Botton38:33

       ... yeah. Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson38:33

       Um, but then I realized recently, ab- maybe over the last year or so, I spend a lot of time meditating toward the end of my 20s and, um, trying to turn myself out of the adult infant into maybe an adult adolescent. And, um, most people would look at meditation, you know, sort of an emotion arises inside of you, you notice it, you release and allow. Like, that's, you know, a common sort of-

   26. ABAlain de Botton38:56

       Yep.

   27. CWChris Williamson38:56

       ... tempo that you have. Brilliant, you know, you, you, you are no longer as at the mercy of this particular emotion.

   28. ABAlain de Botton39:03

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson39:03

       Uh, but it was only when I started doing therapy-

   30. ABAlain de Botton39:06

       Yeah.
6. 43:06 – 52:13

   Openness & Transparency in Relationships

   1. CWChris Williamson43:06

      You said, uh, talking about the emotion thing just from before, and I think that this sort of comes into when you're regulating opening up with someone, whether it be a therapist, friend, partner, or whatever, the sort of need for, uh, comfort and reassuring kindness. Like, you can say these things.

   2. ABAlain de Botton43:22

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson43:24

      I- I'm not running away.

   4. ABAlain de Botton43:25

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson43:25

      I don't find you despicable.

   6. ABAlain de Botton43:27

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson43:27

      It's actually kind of interesting.

   8. ABAlain de Botton43:28

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson43:29

      Maybe it's charming-

   10. ABAlain de Botton43:30

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson43:30

       ... for you to do this.

   12. ABAlain de Botton43:31

       I mean, this is so, you know, this is really very much at the core of what we could understand by the word love. You know, if a, think of it in childhood, a loving parent, right? The- The- The child, the young child gets an experience that who they really are is acceptable to someone else. So, you know, a child, a little child will go, "I hate the teacher." And the parent, you know, the good parent is able to bear that. Even though it's not perfect, the parent's able to go, "Oh, okay. W- Well, I wonder, wonder why? What- What's, you know, why- why do they upset you? Sounds like they've up- might have upset you." Re- rather than someone would go, "Don't be so silly. The teacher's the teacher. And th- and they work very hard to give you an education, so don't complain." Wow, that's, you know, that's a tough comment.

   13. CWChris Williamson44:15

       Your emotion is not valid.

   14. ABAlain de Botton44:16

       Your emotion's not val- I mean, you know, parents do their best, but goodness me, stuff happens (laughs) in- in that crucible of childhood that is a bit suboptimal.

   15. CWChris Williamson44:25

       (laughs)

   16. ABAlain de Botton44:25

       Um, but, you know, love, come back to love, what love is, is- is accepting, you know. Um, "I don't wanna see granny." "Okay, you don't wanna see granny, all right." Or- Or, "I really love you," or, "I really hate my sibling," or, "I really like the dog," or, "I wanna live forever." You know, all the stuff that little children come up with. Or, "I'm terrified of daddy actually. I don't like daddy." "Oh, okay. Well, let's think about that. You know, what does that mean?" So, being able to accept, and then in later life, again, having someone, it could be a therapist, it could be a friend, um, who's able to bear the really difficult bits of our psyches, which we all have.

   17. CWChris Williamson44:59

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ABAlain de Botton44:59

       I mean, we're all so much weirder than we're supposed to be, so much sadder, so much more worried, et cetera. And to be able to have someone, you know, it might only be one person or two if we're really lucky, and three if we're, you know-

   19. CWChris Williamson45:13

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ABAlain de Botton45:13

       ... God's gift.

   21. CWChris Williamson45:14

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ABAlain de Botton45:14

       Um, who can bear and who we've allowed into that sort of private, um, sanctum.

   23. CWChris Williamson45:21

       That was one of the realizations that Charlotte first taught me and then I learned, uh, through my therapy over the last year. One of the very unique, uh, parts of a therapeutic relationship is that you're allowed to be as small or boring or petty as you want.

   24. ABAlain de Botton45:37

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson45:37

       And those are areas that with a friend or a partner it's really difficult to do.

   26. ABAlain de Botton45:41

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson45:42

       Because you're managing optics in some way, thinking, "Well, it's my job to kind of entertain this person, even if they're there to-"

   28. ABAlain de Botton45:49

       Sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson45:49

       ... to sort of sit and listen with me." Like, not that.

   30. ABAlain de Botton45:52

       Yeah.
7. 52:13 – 58:37

   Advice for People in an Anxious-Avoidant Relationship

   1. ABAlain de Botton52:13

      on this one.

   2. CWChris Williamson52:14

      What would be your advice to, uh, people in the classic anxious avoidant relationship, the two polarities coming together?

   3. ABAlain de Botton52:23

      Understand, understand, understand where each one's coming from. I mean, why is someone an avoidant? They're not evil, they're not mean, they're not... You know, it, it, it can be pretty horrible to be on the receiving end of certain kinds of pattern of behavior. But let's try and remember, why, why does this exist? Uh, someone becomes avoidant when they've grown up in a calorie, emotional calorie-controlled diet, uh, environment where they have had to get used to very little. The way they survive is mom's not so interested, dad's not so interested, there's no caregiver around, um, lot of disappointment, I'm just gonna hunker down and get used to very little. Literally like a, like an animal that gets used to a very thin diet. Um, that is what has happened to an avoidant person. Um, and then when they get to, to love and someone goes, "I adore you, let's spend every evening together. Let's, you know, um, you're, you're marvelous," um, they feel a bit, often they don't even understand that they're feeling it, totally engulfed. They feel overwhelmed. They feel their, uh, very identity is in threat of dissolution by, by something that's lovely but it's too much too soon. And what they need is an experience of love titrated. They need the titration of love. Um, but often they don't know how to ask for it. They don't even know... Often they, they might smile through it and, and go, "I'm, I'm not really feeling this." And then they can't bear it, they can't bear it, and then they run away, um, or just act, become weird or something. You know, so, so explanation. You know, "Hello, I'm somebody who had to get used to a very, you know, calorie-controlled diet emotionally. Um, uh, you know, I really feel warmly this relationship is, matters a lot to me. But the kindest thing is not to be too kind to me in an overwhelming way. The most generous thing is not to be too abundant. Not because I don't want this, but because I grew up in a situation of deprivation." So that's our avoidant friend. Anxious friend, similar kind of story of explanation. Why do both people become so-called anxious? Normally because, unlike the avoidant person, they have had an experience of love. So in some ways, the anxious person's had a better childhood, better journey through life in a way. They have experienced love, but they've also experienced loss and the disruption of that attachment. So someone died, someone went away, someone had to go to, you know, the army, someone had to... Uh, some- something happened to disrupt the bond. It was very intense, but it was disrupted. And, um, that person needs to understand that they are... You know, there's a wonderful sentence from Donald Winnicott, great psychoanalyst, who said, "The catastrophe you fear will happen has already happened. And the key thing is it's been forgotten." You forgot the catastrophe, and that's why you keep seeing it in the future, whereas actually it belongs in the past.So what you need to do is understand this structure and repatriate the emotion, um, and put it back where it belongs. (clears throat) So, the avoidant person at dinner, you know, on an early date, needs to go, um, you know, "I really want to believe in your love. Um, but if you say you love me, I might not be able to believe it very easily. And what I will do is test it." And the person might go, "Oh, test? Oh, fine. Fire away." And the anxious person should go, "Yeah, this test is gonna be quite unhealthy, qu- quite, quite horrible. You know, it's gonna mean that when you say, um, 'I love you,' I'm gonna start to act up because I want to see if it- you really do. So, I'm gonna be really difficult around you because- not because I don't want you, but because I want to test whether your affection is really real and the only way I know how to do that, 'cause I'm carrying this stuff from childhood, is to act up, play up. And so we're- when we're in a nice restaurant and you tell me that, you know, thing's great, I'm gonna say, 'Actually, the food's not that nice' and then, 'Don't really like the clothes you're wearing,' and I'm gonna cause a drama." Why? To test whether the love is real. Very unfortunate. So, the more the anxious friends can get on top of their anxiety, the more they can translate everything I've just said into something that sounds (laughs) like it's been processed and can be understood by another person-

   4. CWChris Williamson56:20

      Mm.

   5. ABAlain de Botton56:20

      ... then the better it can be. So, um, y- you know, anxious and avoidant people are walking wounded and they need to be able to explain the nature of their particular wound so that appropriate care can be, uh, set up. Awareness. Awareness. Which is why, you know, it's great for people to go to therapy. It's great for people to e- explore themselves. Um, it's not merely fancy. It's not really whatever. It's a serious indicator of an easier life with them. I mean, if you're- if you're with a partner who's able to go, "Okay, hang on a minute. I- I think I'm slipping down a... I- I- I think I'm confusing you with my mother-"

   6. CWChris Williamson57:00

      Mm.

   7. ABAlain de Botton57:00

      "... at the moment." Uh, or, "I think- I think an anger that actually belongs to my father is- is weirdly in the room," because that's what happens when you start to explore your past. You see the intermingling of past and present all the time. Um, and the more you're able to get a handle on that and warn your partner, the easier it is. I mean, we don't need people to be perfect. We need people to understand how they're imperfect and warn us of the coming imperfection or retrospectively apologize for it in relatively civilized terms. That's what we need.

   8. CWChris Williamson57:31

      Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say they're top quality, but few can actually prove it, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentous. They make the highest quality supplements on the planet. If you've been struggling with your sleep quality, their sleep packs are one of my favorite products, which I use every single night before I go to bed. They contain only the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning. They come preloaded in little pouches, which means if you're on the road, if you're traveling, or if you just can't be bothered fishing around inside of all of your different pots on an evening, it's perfect. I've got them with me here while I've been in London. I've been using them every single night. They're phenomenal. They really, really improve my sleep. Also, there is a 30-day money back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk-free. Try it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 20% off everything site-wide by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash MODERNWISDOM, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout.

8. 58:37 – 1:08:42

   How Malleable Are Attachment Styles?

   1. CWChris Williamson58:37

      How malleable are our attachment styles? Uh, are the foundations of them able to genuinely be moved, or is it a case that the best we can hope for is to just compensate for them in adult life?

   2. ABAlain de Botton58:50

      Um, I'm hopeful here that, you know, we can definitely make progress. From wherever we start, we can make progress. That, you know, a temperament where we're inclined to close ourselves off because we constantly think that no one will be able to understand us, once we start to think, "Okay, this is what I do. I feel very easily misunderstood, and I go and essentially sulk," once you notice that, that's a big step, you know? And we're so good at marking milestones. It's somebody's birthday, let's throw a party. It's- uh, you know, somebody's just run a marathon, let's, uh, give them a medal, et cetera. We- we need different kinds of medals. You know, the medal for the avoidant person who understood that they sulk rather than explain, dong, let's put them on television. Let's, uh, give a game show in their honor. These are major milestones. Let's give a party. Let's give a party to the person who's understood that that's going on. To mark- that's much more significant than their birthday, you know what I mean? Which might not be tracking anything significant.

   3. CWChris Williamson59:47

      Mm.

   4. ABAlain de Botton59:47

      That's a significant milestone. So, we- we should, you know, give more public, y- within our circles-

   5. CWChris Williamson59:57

      Mm.

   6. ABAlain de Botton59:57

      ... public recognition of moments of emotional maturation.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      Mm, and how much is that... You know, I think, uh, lots of people, uh, envy the other side. If only I could have a little bit of- a little bit more of that anxiousness. If only I could actually lean in a little bit more, if I could feel a little bit more easily-

   8. ABAlain de Botton1:00:16

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:16

      ... if I could communicate, or, God, if I could just be a little bit more distant, if I didn't need the reassurance in this way, if I didn't-

   10. ABAlain de Botton1:00:22

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:22

       ... have this requirement to feel safe in order to be able to feel comfortable-

   12. ABAlain de Botton1:00:26

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:26

       ... I wasn't externalizing my own sense of self-worth onto somebody else quite in this sort of a way.

   14. ABAlain de Botton1:00:34

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:35

       Uh, yeah, I think it's, uh, a question and- attachment styles are kind of the- the hot new girl in school, psychological, uh, emotional work at the moment. It's very trendy. Um-

   16. ABAlain de Botton1:00:44

       Been around a while.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:45

       It has.

   18. ABAlain de Botton1:00:45

       I mean, in a good way, and- and it's based on very solid science.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:00:48

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ABAlain de Botton1:00:48

       You know, it's-

   21. CWChris Williamson1:00:49

       (laughs)

   22. ABAlain de Botton1:00:49

       ... we- we've been going at this for 50 years.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:00:51

       I looked at some really interesting stuff recently that, um, attachment styles, like everything psychologically, are genetically predisposed-

   24. ABAlain de Botton1:00:58

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:00:58

       ... not necessarily predetermined, but predisposed-

   26. ABAlain de Botton1:01:00

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:01:00

       ... uh, and given that you are raised in the environment which is probably the, uh, breeding ground for that very-... predisposition, it gets reinforced.

   28. ABAlain de Botton1:01:10

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:01:11

       So not only have you got the raw materials to make this thing happen, but unless your parents have somehow managed to sort of pivot in the opposite direction, you then get this additional boost-

   30. ABAlain de Botton1:01:20

       Yeah.
9. 1:08:42 – 1:12:26

   Embracing Playfulness in a Serious World

   1. CWChris Williamson1:08:42

      I wanted- I wanted to try and linger on that as well. I think, um, again, the sorts of people that listen to this show, the sorts of people that- that read your work, um, they'll probably take life seriously. They think it's a- a thing that you're supposed to apply earnest pressure to-

   2. ABAlain de Botton1:08:57

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:08:57

      ... perhaps, a kind of sort of dynamic persistence, but maybe more persistent than dynamic.

   4. ABAlain de Botton1:09:01

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:09:02

      And, um-

   6. ABAlain de Botton1:09:03

      I like it.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:09:04

      ... what's your advice for people to try and embrace some more playfulness when it comes to, life's serious, serious things. I wanna be taken seriously. I want to do things. I wanna make an impact in the world.

   8. ABAlain de Botton1:09:16

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:09:16

      I don't wanna grip too tightly.

   10. ABAlain de Botton1:09:17

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:09:17

       I know that when I grip too tightly, it kind of-

   12. ABAlain de Botton1:09:20

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:09:20

       ... ruins the entire point.

   14. ABAlain de Botton1:09:21

       Well, I think- I think the way is not to- not to say, oh, what you need is bit- you know, lighten up and- and tell a few jokes, 'cause I think that's not gonna- that's gonna rile people up. I think the thing to do is to, um, push some pessimism their way, because it's actually- if you think about what a joke is, a joke is always basically a bit of pessimism wrapped up in- in, you know, artfully wrapped, but it's basically pessimism. Um, one of my favorite sayings by the stoic philosopher Seneca, he goes, "What need is there to weep over parts of life?" He says, "The whole of it calls for tears." And ev- everyone who hears that sorta gets a smile on their face. And you think, the guy wasn't trying to tell a joke. He wasn't trying to make it funny. He was just trying to be bleak, um, and- or just say it how it is, and then it makes us smile out of relief. And the relief is, phew, it's not just me. Um, Arthur Schopenhauer, another great pessimistic German philosopher said, uh, "Today it is bad, tomorrow it will be worse, until the worst of all happens." Death. Um, uh, you know, totally bleak. And you read that and you think, I feel a bit better about today already. I'm starting to cheer up. Um, I think we really get it wrong that we think- we think the only way to cheer someone up is tell them someone cheer- something cheerful. I think the- the Brits have understood this, you know, right? We, you know, great, this country's got lots of problems, but one thing it understands is melancholy and the- the relief available in dark humor. Um, and- and, you know, bless our American friends, but they don't get it-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:10:53

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ABAlain de Botton1:10:53

       ... um, as- as mu- You know, if- if you pitch up in LA and someone goes, "How are you?" And you go, "You know, it's bad today, tomorrow it'll be worse-"

   17. CWChris Williamson1:11:00

       (laughs)

   18. ABAlain de Botton1:11:00

       "... until the worst of all happens," they'll have you sectioned. It's not- Your don't- Your life in Los Angeles is not gonna take off. You know what I mean? So-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:11:07

       Yeah. I- I've heard you refer to melancholy as tragedy well handled.

   20. ABAlain de Botton1:11:11

       Absolutely.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:11:12

       Uh-

   22. ABAlain de Botton1:11:12

       Tragedy well handled.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:11:13

       I- I adore that. I think it's so great. You know, Sam Harris has something- he says something very similar, you know, you- you have to smile at the absurdity of life.

   24. ABAlain de Botton1:11:24

       Yep.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:11:25

       These situations, just as things were smooth, something comes along and completely sideswipes what you had planned.

   26. ABAlain de Botton1:11:31

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:11:31

       Um, and an interesting insight, I suppose, that the volume that you complain is probably proportional to the amount that you aren't- that- that you're enabled to see life for what it is, which is not at your whim. Life is going to have problems thrown at you.

   28. ABAlain de Botton1:11:52

       Yeah, but Chris, let's- let's not do down complaining. I mean, it's one of the great pleasures.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:11:55

       It's one of Britain's great pastimes.

   30. ABAlain de Botton1:11:56

       Well, you know, it's one of everybody, you know, and- and, you know, being able to complain to a loved one-
10. 1:12:26 – 1:16:02

    How Childhood Impacts Adult Relationships

    1. CWChris Williamson1:12:26

       heard you say that, uh, adult relationships are a litmus test of our emotional development.

    2. ABAlain de Botton1:12:30

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:12:30

       That they're, um, a moment where your past catches up with your present. How so? Why is that the case?

    4. ABAlain de Botton1:12:38

       So the way we love as adults always bears the imprint of the way which we were loved and we loved as children, and that hugely restricts how we're able to behave, and explains the very peculiar, often nonsensical, often counterproductive ways in which we love. Um, we're not free to love just anyone, and- and this, uh, you know, I'm sure you'll have had this in your life, met people, et cetera, who will say things like, "Seem to have ended up with quite a difficult person for me. You know, they're really (clears throat) they're quite challenging for me. Why can't I go and love somebody else? Why am I so in love with this person who's quite challenging?" And often it's because what's challenging sits on the very area that was challenging in your past.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:23

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ABAlain de Botton1:13:24

       And that's what makes them attractive. Now, before, you know, we want to jump off a cliff at the s- pessimism involved, let's be a little optimistic here.Um, in a good relationship, um, we are drawn towards people who, yes, carry some of the puzzles, some of the knots, some of the challenges of a parental figure or figure of, uh, a caregiver. Um, but they hold out the promise of a different ending. So, whereas in the relationship with parent or caregiver, it ended up with shouting, and you stormed out of the house, and you're no longer in touch with them, imagine the joy, imagine the sense of triumph over, sort of adversity and human non-communication if you are together as a couple able to move towards understanding and mutual growth. I think that explains why people hang in there-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:16

       Mm.

    8. ABAlain de Botton1:14:17

       ... with people who you might think, you know, and t- tak- you know, we're talking about, uh, um, uh, attachment, uh, theory, you know, an- an anxious person who, who teams up with an avoidant one, you might wanna go, "Why? Why are you with this avoidant person?" You know, "Look at this other... I'm gonna present you with a perfectly securely attached person," and you go, "Oh, they're a bit boring. Don't really want them." You think, "Why? What's going on?" It's just pure perversion. Let's be generous towards that impulse. They're trying to find a different ending to probably a very painful early situation. Um, and to be able to do that, to be able to grow together-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:14:51

       Mm.

    10. ABAlain de Botton1:14:51

        ... is literally, I think, one of the most exciting and lovely things. It's rare, which is why successful love is rare. Um, but yeah, to grow together away from your early attachment wounds powers a lot of the ambition of love.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:15:07

        We'll get back to talking to Alain in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Function. Stop guessing about what's happening inside of your body. Staying on top of your health requires more than just an annual physical, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that track over 100 biomarkers and monitor for early signs of thousands of diseases. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. You receive insights from a team of expert physicians who provide a detailed written clinician summary of their observation and phone consultations for any critical findings. The world of healthcare has kind of changed. We don't need to be reactive. We can be proactive. We can catch things before they happen. And this is one of the best and most accessible ways to start. Right now, you can discover where your health stands by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Seems

11. 1:16:02 – 1:22:33

    Why People Get Stuck in Unhappy Relationships

    1. CWChris Williamson1:16:02

       like deciding whether to stay in or leave a relationship can sometimes be a protracted decision, uh, which might be surprising given that we have this short time on Earth and, and we don't want to waste it. I think a lot of people have problems breaking up with someone even though they- they might not make them particularly very happy.

Episode duration: 1:52:21