The Definitive Guide To Digital Productivity | Tiago Forte

1. 0:00 – 0:46

   From consumer to creator: why productivity must serve output

   1. TFTiago Forte0:00

      ... were not trained or educated in any way to think of ourselves as creators. And that's the term I like to use, creator. You know, 'cause you can be creating anything. It's we- it's websites, it's videos, it's interviews, it's events, right? But until you actually step out and y- really, y- you're putting yourself on the line, right? Like people who are endlessly just accumulating knowledge and accumu- more and more books read, I mean that is, that is a, such a, it's such a, um, non-participatory way of living in my view. You know, better to read o- consume 1/10 as much, as much information online and actually put that to use, rather than just like racking up the, you know, the vanity metrics.

2. 0:46 – 3:53

   Why the Digital Productivity Pyramid exists (and why metrics fail for knowledge work)

   1. CWChris Williamson0:46

      Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I am joined by Tiago Forte of Forte Labs. We have already bonded over the fact that he too is an AirPods evangelist, and I think that gives you a bit of an idea about what we're in for today. We're going to be talking digital optimization and how we can become more efficient in our online lives. Tiago, welcome to the show.

   2. TFTiago Forte1:09

      Thank you, Chris. It's really, really good to be here.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:11

      Yeah. I'm excited to go through today. So, uh, I'm gonna get straight into it. The Digital Productivity Pyramid was a blog post that you wrote about a year ago, and me and a couple of friends came across it, and it was a, a real frame shift for us. Um, I was super impressed with it and I think pretty much since then I've been hassling you in your inbox to try and get you on, so I'm very glad that we've found some time to get the AirPods in your ears and, uh-

   4. TFTiago Forte1:39

      Amazing.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:40

      ... to run through this. So, let's take it from the top. Can you explain to people who've never heard of yourself or, uh, Forte Labs, which is the, the, uh, blogging company that you run and, or the Digital Productivity Pyramid. Can you explain what it is and your philosophy behind it to begin with?

   6. TFTiago Forte1:57

      Sure. Sure. Um, so the pyramid really is not a pyramid scheme, I promise. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson2:05

      (laughs)

   8. TFTiago Forte2:06

      Uh, it is a, it's a framework. It's a framework that I developed, um, maybe a couple of years ago. I mean, I formalized it a couple years ago, but it's definitely been rattling around in my head for some years. And it really came about when I, when I just realized, you know, as this productivity expert, productivity trainer, productivity blogger, uh, I run around every day making grand promises of revolu- of revolutionizing people's work performance, and I just realized, well, you have to have some theory of what improvement even means, right?

   9. CWChris Williamson2:39

      Yeah.

   10. TFTiago Forte2:40

       And I, I looked around at what was out there and all a- the available ones, you know, more tasks completed seemed completely outdated, uh, you know, minutes of focus even kinda seemed like overly simplistic. Um, y- I looked at a ton of metrics. I was super involved in the quantified self, uh, movement-

   11. CWChris Williamson2:57

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TFTiago Forte2:57

       ... for some years. I've given a bunch of talks, and I just realized none of those did the trick.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:01

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TFTiago Forte3:01

       And so instead of focusing on metrics, on measuring some output, which I think with creative knowledge work is basically impossible, I chose to focus on the skills. What is the ladder, the pyramid of skills that a modern knowledge worker would need to acquire, um, in order to execute their work successfully? Um, and a large part of it came about accidentally. I actually looked at my courses that I'd developed. Y- you know, each course that I've done came out of the needs of the previous course, right? I would create a course and then look and then see, you know, the people completing it, what, what are they still needing? What are they still lacking? And then I would create the next course. And I've only done three courses, but those are the first three levels of the pyramid, and now I have my eye on the fourth level which is starting to emerge. Really, it's emerging. It's, it's appearing before my eyes as the next thing that people need. Uh, and we can get into y- what each of one of those are, but that's the basic story.

3. 3:53 – 7:44

   Knowledge work as ‘art’: motivation, fulfillment, and the limits of optimization

   1. CWChris Williamson3:53

      I understand. Yes. Uh, I was reading Deep Work by Cal Newport recently. I know it's overdue and his publishers sent me very kindly, thank you, Cal, had sent me Digital Minimalism as well, which is next on the list to read. Um, but going through Deep Work, uh, listeners at home who are knowledge workers may not quite understand what we mean when we say that the output is difficult to define, but if you were to think back to a typical job 50 to 100 years ago, cranking widgets I think is the, the term that Cal Newport uses, which is where you would have some machine shop worker, you would have a, a bucket of undone parts in one side, a machine that was a process in the middle, and a bucket of completed parts on the other side. It was very easy for you to see when a part was uncompleted, in process, and completed. It was also easy for you to track how much was to be done and how much you had done. Um, whereas it's a lot more kind of nebulous and cloudy and, and, and just difficult to define. You wake up with an amount of emails in your inbox and sometimes you go to bed with more having done loads all day and you have these, um, serendipitous wor- open work spaces which Cal's very critical of and, um, yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there saying that it's difficult to define when work gets done, and your solution to that as you're suggesting is to focus on building a lattice work of effective skills and frameworks that you can work upon and hopefully allowing the outputs to kind of look after themselves on the other side. Is that right?

   2. TFTiago Forte5:30

      It is. It is, yeah. And it's, it's not that the outputs don't matter or, or something like that, it's, it's that they're sort of outside of my purview, you know? I, I don't, I don't think there is a way, it's like all the mechanical sort of widget jobs, like you said, have now been taken by machines. The only ones that are left are inherently ambiguous, inherently undefined, inherently unstructured. And by definition you can't... You know, metrics require repeatability. Me- a metric only, is only meaningful with a repeatable process. So when you're doing essentially art, and I know people hate the idea that they're artists, but basically in a way we, we are all artists now. Um, defining the problem is like most of the work.... right? So I guess you could make a metric, you know, problems defined, but it just gets, it just gets really weird and actually can be, um, can be bad when you focus on a metric to the exclusion of the experience of the satisfaction of the fulfillment, which, when you're doing work like we're doing that's creative, you, it, being motivated and satisfied and fulfilled is not optional. That's not like, "Oh, it's great that you like your factory job."

   3. CWChris Williamson6:34

      (laughs)

   4. TFTiago Forte6:34

      It's like you literally cannot go on, you cannot give of yourself what you have to give to do that kind of work if you're not fulfilled.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:43

      I understand. There is, uh, an inherent degree of satisfaction that comes with crossing things off a list. We are, um, as well as being Apple evangelists, we're also big lovers of the Pomodoro technique and using the very obvious crossing off of a list or the coloring out or the ticking off of an item. There is such a... And it's so, uh, it's such a common, right, on modern knowledge work that we need to kind of artificially create this done big button that we hit that identifies the fact that we've actually completed something. But it, it, it's the antidote to a degree of this, I don't know when work begins and work ends. I think there was a, a statistic that 80% of American knowledge workers check their emails after 11:00 at night and before 7:00 in the morning, like both of them. So you're like, you may be getting up at 3:00 in the morning to check your emails. Like who... So I think you're, you're, you're totally right with what you say.

4. 7:44 – 11:42

   Pyramid overview: the 5 levels and how they build (without being rigid)

   1. CWChris Williamson7:44

      So moving on to the pyramid itself, there's some core principles and then there's some layers, some levels should I say. Where are we gonna start?

   2. TFTiago Forte7:53

      I mean, we can just start at the bottom and work our way up.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:55

      Let's go.

   4. TFTiago Forte7:57

      Okay. So the... Well, first of all, let me just say what the, the five layers or levels of the pyramid are.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:05

      Mm-hmm.

   6. TFTiago Forte8:07

      Um, the first base layer is what I call digital fluency. Um, and I'll describe that in a minute. The second one on top of that is task management and workflow, basically to-do lists. Um, the third one is habit formation and behavior change, which you're very familiar with. The fourth level is what I call personal knowledge management, PKM, which is essentially storing your knowledge in some sort of digital tool, uh, you know, offloading that knowledge from your brain onto, onto a, onto a software program. Um, and the fifth level, which is the most, uh, currently ambiguous, the most mysterious, but also I think eventually kind of the culmination of all of this, is a framework I'm developing, a methodology I'm developing called Just In Time Project Management.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:54

      Interesting. Is that-

   8. TFTiago Forte8:55

      Uh, which is a...

   9. CWChris Williamson8:56

      Is that gonna be tip of the spear for you? (laughs)

   10. TFTiago Forte8:58

       Probably, probably, yeah, yeah. It all comes back to the same stuff. (laughs) Uh, so, uh, yeah, so the, the basic idea is that the, the levels go from more, I'd say more basic at the bottom to more advanced or more sophisticated at the top. Um, but I wouldn't really say they go from easy to hard, right? Because what's hard is just whatever level you're currently working on, right? And in some ways the base level, which is, is essentially just like how to use a computer, is the hardest, right? If you know someone, you know, I know people my parents' age, you know, if they never learn to do that, basically they're, they're kind of not going to be able to take advantage of all the other levels. Um, so, so yeah, I'll just talk about that. Um, actually I'll say one more thing about that. So each level builds on the one before and so what that means is that each level is sort of enabling or setting the ground for the level above it. It's kind of like a hierarchy of skills or a hierarchy of knowledge. It's like you have to start at the bottom, but then once you create a layer for yourself, you have then the skills and the knowledge to start building the second layer. Um, and then l- the last thing I'll say about that is there is also this kind of a spiral effect. Sometimes I get people like, "Okay, I'm just gonna finish one level 100% completely and then do the whole second level perfectly." But that's not quite how it works. It's kind of more like a cycle.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:29

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TFTiago Forte10:30

       Um, I mean, the, the truth is that we're all always working on all levels, right?

   13. CWChris Williamson10:34

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TFTiago Forte10:34

       You never completely master any one domain. Um, so, you know, I just took a, a, um, a course on Mailchimp, learning how to use, you know, an, an email newsletter program.

   15. CWChris Williamson10:45

       Mm-hmm.

   16. TFTiago Forte10:45

       And that is at the, at the base level, that's how to use a particular technology. Um, but I found that I wasn't able to work at the higher levels until I kind of put that brick in the base of the pyramid, which is how to use, um, how to use Mailchimp.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:59

       So you can't do task and management workflow of your Mailchimp system until you've got level one, digital fluency with Mailchimp?

   18. TFTiago Forte11:08

       Yeah. So it's not always that direct, or I'd say not usually that direct. Um, sometimes you can learn parts of higher order skills or learn them in a certain way or learn just enough to outsource them. There's, there's different things. Um, but the pyramid shape makes it sound very like-

   19. CWChris Williamson11:27

       Rigid.

   20. TFTiago Forte11:27

       ... you know, monumental and very rigid. It's really not. I mean, this is human, humans, so everything is quite intertwined.

   21. CWChris Williamson11:34

       I get you. So digital fluency, we're going to start at the bottom. What are some of the skills that people need to be developing there and how can they develop them?

5. 11:42 – 18:50

   Level 1 — Digital fluency: the foundational toolkit for modern work

   1. TFTiago Forte11:42

      Yeah. So really this comes from my time working, so actually in high school. In high school, I had a little business fixing Windows computers. Um, and I would go... This was really the start of my... I didn't know it at the time or for many years, but the start of what I would ultimately do, is I would go around mostly to my parents' friends and then their friends and their neighbors and then their neighbors, um, fixing their, you know, this was Windows XP-

   2. CWChris Williamson12:06

      Mm-hmm. (laughs)

   3. TFTiago Forte12:07

      ... in most cases. And it was really funny because I would bill by the hour, um, and a pretty, pretty darn good rate for a high school student. Uh, but then every single time, after listening very, you know, empathetically to their, their problem, their unique, unique problems they were having, I would just always apply the exact same solution. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson12:26

      (laughs) ... I imagine there's a lot of physios listening that must feel the same thing, people that do sport, like, strength and conditioning. It's, "I've got this very unique pain in my knee," and this, that and the other. And they'll just send them away with the basics that work well.

   5. TFTiago Forte12:42

      Exactly, yeah. My solution was to wipe their hard drive-

   6. CWChris Williamson12:45

      (laughs)

   7. TFTiago Forte12:46

      ... and reinstall Windows XP. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson12:49

      (laughs) You're just playing the game, Tiago. It's fine, man.

   9. TFTiago Forte12:52

      (laughs) Oh, it feels wonderful. Um, but I don't know, I learned a lot, uh, in that job and then in my s- in my subsequent job in college, which was at the Apple Store. So that was, uh, a similar thing where I was a, one of those people that teach. So I would teach a morning class. You know, at this time just, and still, millions of people around the world were switching to Macs. It was kind of the golden era of switching and I would teach them how to use their Macs. Um, so basically all the lessons from there I distilled into, what is it, three times four, 12, um, kind of specific technological skills, I'd say, or tools, that y- I think you need to know at some point or another.

   10. CWChris Williamson13:30

       Cool.

   11. TFTiago Forte13:31

       And those are really just basic computer usage. So, you know, turning on your computer (laughs) um, how to use email. Uh, actually those are other ones. So how to browse the web, um, how to use your, your email, how to send and receive emails. Um, then s- kind of getting more advanced, uh, keyboard shortcuts, uh, for the programs that you use the most. Uh, digital calendars, uh, scheduling apps for scheduling appointments and meetings and things like that. Um, read later apps, so you read, you know, you find an article online you want to read, you save it to apps like Pocket and Instapaper. Then we proceed to inbox zero. So not just using email, but using it systematically in a way that you're consistently closing the loops in there. Um, then password management, so you're not having to, uh, remember passwords, or even worse, use the same password everywhere. (laughs) Uh, then there's three more, speed reading, uh, time tracking and text expanders.

   12. CWChris Williamson14:29

       I'm looking through that list in my own mind and realizing that even at the bottom level of a pyramid that I hold in very high regard, there's still massive holes in my (laughs) in my game. Um, so I think for the vast majority of people, they will consider basic computer usage, or most of the listeners consider basic, uh, computer usage, web browsing, email usage should be pretty simple. Keyboard shortcuts for things like YouTube, K pauses and L and J jump forward and back 10 seconds, and command and V and command and C and stuff like that, I'm gonna guess. Is there... Have you... Are you familiar with Alfred? Alfred app?

   13. TFTiago Forte15:09

       Oh, yeah. I'm a big Alfred fan.

   14. CWChris Williamson15:10

       Oh, you are among friends here, Tiago.

   15. TFTiago Forte15:14

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson15:14

       You really... This is a safe space for you to talk about your s-

   17. TFTiago Forte15:17

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson15:17

       ... your snippets and your workflow and everything. Um, so-

   19. TFTiago Forte15:22

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson15:22

       (laughs) ... um, the listeners at home, head to alfredapp.com. You, you need it in your life if you're on Mac. And if you're on Windows, unlucky, because they literally do not, do not even make it for Windows.

   21. TFTiago Forte15:33

       Yeah. I know.

   22. CWChris Williamson15:34

       Um, so digital calendars, what do you use? Uh, I know that we did this over Google Calendar. Are you a Google Calendar man?

   23. TFTiago Forte15:42

       Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's really just Google Calendar, but I'm s- I'm still amazed, uh, how many people don't have digital calendars. I regularly encounter even professionals with years of experience who are still using, um, paper.

   24. CWChris Williamson15:55

       Mm-hmm. My business partner has a-

   25. TFTiago Forte15:57

       It's kind of amazing.

   26. CWChris Williamson15:57

       My business partner has a Filofax, like a one, uh, like week per two pages Filofax thing that he likes to write down and he just likes to have it. I'm like, "Oh, man." It's-

   27. TFTiago Forte16:10

       Ugh.

   28. CWChris Williamson16:10

       It's... He's a curmudgeon when it comes to that. I will convert him eventually, but we don't know. Um, moving on to scheduling apps. Oh, by the way, uh, Google Calendar, like, you... It's... I've fully transitioned now from iCal to Google Calendar.

   29. TFTiago Forte16:23

       Mm.

   30. CWChris Williamson16:24

       Um, and the way that it links in with when you get a flight, like, you get an email about a flight and then your flight info's already in Google Calendar with your check-in and it links to the email. Like, it's, it's so good. It is, it is really good. Um, scheduling apps, what are we talking about there?
6. 18:50 – 20:40

   Email mastery: Inbox Zero as “don’t use email as a to-do list”

   1. CWChris Williamson18:50

      Inbox Zero will be a concept that a lot of people, especially my business partner's wife, Colleen, who has, like, 10,000 unread emails, uh, will be aliened with. Can you explain why it's important?

   2. TFTiago Forte19:03

      Yeah. So e- email's interesting. I'm actually, I'm doing a, a walkthrough tomorrow on the Superhuman app.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:10

      What's that?

   4. TFTiago Forte19:11

      Have you seen Su- Superhuman? It's this, this productivity app that's sort of made waves in the past couple years, um, for revolutionizing the email experience.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:20

      (laughs)

   6. TFTiago Forte19:20

      Uh, and it's most known for, it's most known, known for its eye-popping $30 a month price. Um ... (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson19:27

      (laughs) Sh- okay.

   8. TFTiago Forte19:28

      And for, and for its waiting list, which has, like, 200,000 people.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:32

      Wow.

   10. TFTiago Forte19:33

       Uh, and they only let s- you know, small numbers of people use it at a time. So, um, it's, it has, it's sort of, like, greatly in demand to even be able to use it. But, but anyway, I think, um, people's email usage, um, goes through phases. You know, when you first ... I, I, I see my younger brother, you know, he's just, just starting in his career. It's like emails is like, it's like postal mail. It's this vaguely annoying thing he b- he pays minimal attention to, takes him weeks to even open it. It's like very kind of low priority, right? Um, and then most people, I think when you, when you get your first sort of professional job, you kind of have a, a shock of cold water in the face when you realize, "Whoa, people expect me to actually keep up with these things." (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson20:16

       Ah. Ah-huh. Yeah.

   12. TFTiago Forte20:19

       (laughs) And it, it's a real-

   13. CWChris Williamson20:19

       This high-pressure hose in the face of, of constant emails-

   14. TFTiago Forte20:22

       It-

   15. CWChris Williamson20:22

       ... you need to reply or respond, yeah.

   16. TFTiago Forte20:25

       It really is. And, and I think we all sort of do a mix of whatever we can. It's like, you know, survival sinking ship style, or maybe if we're lucky, we have someone, a model around us who teaches us something about how to use email.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:40

       Mm-hmm.

7. 20:40 – 26:52

   One-Touch to Inbox Zero: the 6 actions and the ‘task link’ breakthrough

   1. TFTiago Forte20:40

      Or maybe ideally, ideally we read an article or take a course or do something like that. Um, and there's just many, many levels just within that one little thing. And In- Inbox Zero to me is, it's not just this, you know, w- kind of bragging right that you have an empty inbox, although that's nice, it's the, it's just the fact that you're not using your email as a to-do list, right? Which is what most people do. Each email in their inbox is an open loop, it's a task they have to take care of. And I wrote this article, uh, one of my most popular all-time articles, it's called, um, One Touch to Inbox Zero.

   2. CWChris Williamson21:13

      Is that the-

   3. TFTiago Forte21:14

      Where I just-

   4. CWChris Williamson21:14

      ... there's four, four different pathways? Is there? There's four things-

   5. TFTiago Forte21:17

      Yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson21:17

      ... that you can do?

   7. TFTiago Forte21:18

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson21:18

      Yes. That has been linked by Jordan, who's a friend of the show in our private members group. He put that in-

   9. TFTiago Forte21:22

      Oh, nice.

   10. CWChris Williamson21:23

       ... as someone had complained about the fact that he couldn't manage his inbox, and he said, "Man, there's only four things that you ever need to do." So what are the four things? 'Cause I can't remember.

   11. TFTiago Forte21:31

       Let's see if I can remember. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson21:33

       (laughs) Oh, here we go. The pressure's on.

   13. TFTiago Forte21:36

       I mean, it's, it's so ingrained at this point. Let's see. Um, I mean, it's either archive immediately, and that's the, really the, the most common case, you know. Um, the, the amazing thing of email is we use it for so many things, but one of those things is just notifications.

   14. CWChris Williamson21:49

       Yeah.

   15. TFTiago Forte21:50

       Right? Just something happened, a package was delivered, a subscription renewed, something happened out there and you don't need really any, any more than a split second of attention on it, or if any. Um, so it's just archived, just see it, delete it.

   16. CWChris Williamson22:04

       Yep.

   17. TFTiago Forte22:05

       Uh, or rather archive, so it's, so which is different in Gmail, so you can refer to it later.

   18. CWChris Williamson22:09

       Yep.

   19. TFTiago Forte22:10

       Um, the second is make a task out of it. And this is the, like, the cr- like, the key feature of any task manager, any to-do list app that I ask people to look for, is the ability to create a new task with a link that goes back to the original email. Like, that one little thing is unbelievably revolutionary.

   20. CWChris Williamson22:28

       What do you use for that?

   21. TFTiago Forte22:29

       Um, 'cause what I love ... I use Things. I've always used Things. Uh-

   22. CWChris Williamson22:33

       Things?

   23. TFTiago Forte22:34

       Yeah, it's called Things.

   24. CWChris Williamson22:36

       Never heard of it.

   25. TFTiago Forte22:37

       Really?

   26. CWChris Williamson22:38

       Here we go, we're op- oh, we're opening a portal here, Tiago. Come on, tell me about it.

   27. TFTiago Forte22:42

       Oh my gosh. Things is just phenomenal.

   28. CWChris Williamson22:44

       Right.

   29. TFTiago Forte22:44

       Uh, it's made by, it's made by a German company called Cultured Code, uh, which I think is key to its success. It doesn't ... You know, they're, they're sometimes criticized for their lack of feature development. They release a new version every few years.

   30. CWChris Williamson22:58

       Yeah.
8. 26:52 – 38:59

   Security and efficiency: password managers, time tracking, and text expanders

   1. CWChris Williamson26:52

      I love it. Uh, password management. This is one that I am very interested to hear about what you use.

   2. TFTiago Forte26:58

      (smacks lips) I'm a huge fan of 1Password.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:02

      Okay.

   4. TFTiago Forte27:03

      Uh, it's just the- the number one plus the word password. Uh, and it's just, I mean, it's just a game changer. Like, I used to use the same em- the same password. I mean, I'm amazed I didn't, I never got hacked or had money stolen or anything. And then I, you know, at some point I developed this more sophisticated system where it was, like, the name of the website plus, like, the date, like, some other variable-

   5. CWChris Williamson27:24

      Oh my God.

   6. TFTiago Forte27:25

      ... and then, and then my standard password. And it started taking up so much cognitive bandwidth-

   7. CWChris Williamson27:29

      (laughs)

   8. TFTiago Forte27:29

      ... that I just thought, "I can't do it anymore." Um, esp- especially now that I, I (audio cuts out) can see in my password manager, I have over 300 logins. You know, you-

   9. CWChris Williamson27:39

      Wow.

   10. TFTiago Forte27:39

       I don't think people realize how many different accounts they have online. Um, but basically, one password just, when you need a password, you just hit generate password. It generates this long s- alphanumeric and symbol string, which is impossible to crack. Um, and then it inserts your- your username and your password, saves it for you, and then w- if you ever come back to that website again, it recognizes the website and you just hit the little Chrome plugin and it inserts it right there. It's just incredible.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:06

       Yeah. Totally right. I, um, I had... LinkedIn recently had a data loss and my (laughs) li- I must have used the same LinkedIn password as I did for my Deliveroo account, and someone in London ordered themselves, like, 40 pounds worth of Nandos to their- to their address off the f- back of the fact that-

   12. TFTiago Forte28:28

       What?

   13. CWChris Williamson28:28

       Yeah. I'm being, I'm being serious. Um, and then I had to go through this massive rigmarole with Deliveroo and be like, "I didn't order this thing." It happened it was on my business partner's business card as well. So he was like, "Mate, what- what's this 40 pounds for... Why were you in London ordering Nando's?" And I was like, "Oh, God. That wasn't me." Went back through and sure enough, it was a LinkedIn, um, uh, data breach. So, yes.

   14. TFTiago Forte28:50

       Oh my gosh.

   15. CWChris Williamson28:51

       Use- use a password management or else someone's gonna sting you for 40 quid's worth of, uh, of takeaway food.

   16. TFTiago Forte28:57

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson28:57

       Um, so next-

   18. TFTiago Forte28:58

       (laughs) .

   19. CWChris Williamson28:58

       ... speed reading.

   20. TFTiago Forte28:58

       (inhales through teeth) Yeah. Speed reading is one I- I kind of have there tentatively. I've never done anything with speed reading. Um, I think I read... In fact, I know, I've tested it. I- I read quickly pretty naturally. Um, I think that's from reading so much as a kid. I was such a, such a voracious reader as a kid. Um, so it's not a, it's not become a bottleneck for me in any way.

   21. CWChris Williamson29:23

       Yeah.

   22. TFTiago Forte29:23

       But just based on what I've seen from others, I think if you don't have that naturally, that it can be a game changer. So I kind of have it there as if that's something that you feel is starting to limit you.

   23. CWChris Williamson29:32

       Is there a- a technique to that, or is it just trying to read more quickly?

   24. TFTiago Forte29:37

       Uh, I don't know the names. There's a few I've seen that seem to produce m- miraculous results, but I've just never gotten into it.

   25. CWChris Williamson29:43

       Cool. Tim Ferriss has a good... This is only for books off of Kindle, but Tim Ferriss has a- a good breakdown of how you can speed read books more easily by, uh, bringing your eyes in from the margins and by actually using a ruler below each line to track down, which is kind- which is, which is interesting. But Tim Ferriss is super adamant, and if Tim says it, I'm- I'm gonna probably presume that he's right. Uh, time tracking is up next.

   26. TFTiago Forte30:07

       Yeah. Time tracking is amazing. Um, and it's not, like... It's funny. People have really weird sort of associations with time tracking. I think they think of the punch card.

   27. CWChris Williamson30:18

       (laughs) .

   28. TFTiago Forte30:18

       They have, you know, trauma from their nine to five job where they had to, uh, you know, be there exactly from this time to that time, or maybe they were paid by the- the hour. So they sort of, it feels like a ball and chain. But I think when you become more autonomous, and whether that's being a freelancer, an entrepreneur, or just as, uh, valid, just being higher up in your organization where you kind of have, you know, freedom to work how you wanna work.... um, time tracking becomes this whole- it becomes basically a tool of self-awareness. You know, people- people have such bad intuition about time. They... And- and time is- is- is the currency of, uh, life. I mean, obviously, it's the- it's just the basic building block of all experience. Until you have a sense, you know. Like, I think if I used to quote Jobs, like I would have a project, "Oh yeah, build this website." "Yeah, psh, I can build a website in two hours." (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson31:10

       (laughs)

   30. TFTiago Forte31:11

       You know? And then you- and then you do the time tracking and actually track that project, and then you look at the end and you see... Like I literally had projects when I was first getting started whe- when, you know, when I had- could barely pay the rent, that I would make much less than minimum wage by the time all the- the time was factored in.
9. 38:59 – 47:31

   Level 2 — Task management & workflow: GTD’s 5 stages in practice

   1. CWChris Williamson38:59

      That's sent from, from my desktop. So you need, you need that as well. So we're moving on to the second level now, is that correct? Task management and workflow.

   2. TFTiago Forte39:08

      Yes, yes. Uh, we've kind of touched on this already, but basically, you know, once you have all or some of the computer usage, you know, you're- you're- you're comfortable with a core set of pro- of productivity apps, let's say, um, you can level that up to really what is GTD. Like, this was the- the- the layer that was really addressed by GTD, which said, you know, the- the way that you manage tasks is not, or doesn't have to be haphazard, random, just reactive to whatever is coming across your plate. It can be systematic. And, and I'm sure you're familiar with GTD. Many of your listeners will be. That's really how I got my start, um, in the business, is I had a GTD course (clears throat) that I, that I created. Um, and there's, there's just the five stages. You know, you capture your open loops, you clarify them, organize them, you reflect on your project list, and then you engage with whatever's most appropriate. Um, and this, this is, uh, just a massive level upper. I mean, I think something like a little over 20,000 people have taken that course, and I sti- it was created almost six years ago and hasn't been changed since then. And I still get emails every week of people at every age, every stage of life, just, um, discovering GTD for the first time, which is amazing. It's been around for almost 20 years. And realizing that there is a, just a much more sensible, logical way of managing their to-do list.

   3. CWChris Williamson40:31

      Still relevant.

   4. TFTiago Forte40:33

      Yeah, it really is.

   5. CWChris Williamson40:35

      Um, so-

   6. TFTiago Forte40:35

      It really, it, it's-

   7. CWChris Williamson40:37

      Can you just lay out... So, capture, clarify, organize, reflect, engage. Can you clarify how you would instantiate those things, or a little bit of an expansion on each of them? And then we'll get on to level three.

   8. TFTiago Forte40:50

      Sure, sure. So each one is, is really just a principle that can be instantiated many different ways. Uh, if we're using, let's say, a task manager, which is really just a digital to-do list program, uh, it's quite simple. Uh, so capture is really just get it from out there or in your mind somewhere into a centralized place. Um, and that can be done very quickly. It should be done actually quickly, friction- frictionlessly. Um, you asked before how Things does this. It's, uh, it's control space and this little tiny window in the center of your screen pops up, and then you just type the task and hit e- hit enter and it just disappears. So you don't even have to so much as switch what program you're looking at. Um, uh, so yeah, that's capture.

   9. CWChris Williamson41:33

      Yep.

   10. TFTiago Forte41:34

       And, um, clarify. So because capture has to be so frictionless, right, you might be in the, in the middle of writing something, you might be in the middle of a meeting, you might be in the middle of a podcast interview. Because capture has to be so frictionless, you want to separate the actual thinking about what that thing actually is into the second step, which is clarify. So what you're gonna do is as you start capturing things, you know, every day or two or three, you're gonna come to an inbox, uh, arrive at an inbox full of these things you've written down. And sometimes you're like, "What was I even thinking? What does that even refer to?" Like, you have to really do some clarifying, right? Um, and clarifying can include making it more specific, it can include adding details like who you're supposed to call, or why, or what the agenda is. It can include, uh, what project it belongs to, what the goal of that task is, all sorts of things.

   11. CWChris Williamson42:25

       Got you.

   12. TFTiago Forte42:25

       And that's step two.

   13. CWChris Williamson42:26

       Yeah.

   14. TFTiago Forte42:28

       Um, step three is organize. So, you know, at this point you still just have this s- this formless sea of different tasks that you've, that you've created. Um, organize is really just to put those into projects, right? Projects and areas, which are his two distinctions. Uh, so what... You know, this, what is this group of tasks over here trying to accomplish? That's a project. This group over here is a different project. This over here is, is an area. So just kind of grouping them.... um, and because once you have those groups, you can actually see at a glance what is the set of commitments, the set of projects that you currently have going, um, which you can't do if you just have, you know, 300 random tasks on a giant list.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:05

       Yeah. Yeah. You are, you are very right. To go back to just the capture thing, a quote that I've been trying to remember that Johnny told me about is, I think it's David Allen, uh, "The mind is built for having thoughts, not holding thoughts." Is that David Allen?

   16. TFTiago Forte43:17

       Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson43:18

       Yes.

   18. TFTiago Forte43:18

       That is, yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson43:19

       And that's, that's so central, I think, to what we have here, the zeigarnic effect, which is the open loop, closed loop that everyone suffers with. It's the reason that Inbox Zero is a good idea, it's the reason that the two-minute rule is a good idea, that getting things out of your head and into some sort of capture process that is then clarified because the capture was probably pretty quick and rough-hewn. Then we've organized it, we've put it into something which is a little bit more, uh, well-formatted and underneath headings of topics or dates or whatever it might be, and then we're gonna reflect next.

   20. TFTiago Forte43:56

       Yes. Yes. So up 'til now, you've sort of been building and accumulating and, and defining your, your to-do list. Um, but then, you know, all of that goes out of date. Uh, tasks are perishable. It's like fruit. Um, what was relevant yesterday suddenly, in, in the light of new information, is not relevant. Or especially once days, weeks have passed, you have to actually refresh, um, this list of projects and tasks. Um, and he, uh, David Allen recommends doing this in a weekly review or a monthly review. It's taking some time, and the reason he uses reflect is this is actually not a mechanical, analytical process. It's you have to step back and think, "Okay, why am I doing all this? What is ... Is all this still relevant?" You know, you don't wanna keep the heads down, chugging along for too long. Uh, you wanna actually think about the big picture. Um, so that's the reflect stage. And then engage is really just, you know, you, you, you've sort of been preparing all this so that when you arrive at work in the morning, right? So it's that, you have that fresh mind, you have a fresh cup of coffee, ready to go, instead of, "Oh, let me start way at the beginning, thinking of my open loops, checking my email, clarifying, organizing." You actually are ready to just look at your task manager, pick a subset of, in my case, 8.1 tasks for the day, um, and then just actually produce value and, and get things done, like the name says, instead of pla- you know, doing your work instead planning your work, because you've pre-planned and pre-organized all these things.

   21. CWChris Williamson45:27

       I get you. So with the fact that you're capturing quite quickly and then reflecting on a weekly basis, where do you draw the line between something comes into your sphere of attention or sphere of awareness, uh, someone texts you, there's something that needs to be done, someone asks you a question, you realize there's something that you need to get from the store later on, or whatever it might be. When d- or where do you draw the line between doing the, the action now or scheduling it for later?

   22. TFTiago Forte45:59

       I mean, uh, for things, so, so David Allen uses a two-minute rule. Uh, if you just can do it immediately, do it, right? He, he kind of chose two minutes as the threshold under which it's not worth all this time of, uh, doing all these things. The thing is that, that people ... and we even talked about this when I was on his podcast. People seriously underestimate how much, uh, or overestimate how much two minutes is, right? I mean, two minutes is like nothing. It's like it goes by in a second, right?

   23. CWChris Williamson46:29

       Yeah.

   24. TFTiago Forte46:29

       Um, so you, you sort of have to, in a weird way ... There, there's something else that happens too, which is usually when you have one open loop, one thing you're trying to remember to do, you're like, "Oh, that's fine, one thing I can remember. Two things, three things, four things." And then you get around like five or seven, and it's only then that you realize, "Oh my gosh, I, there, I, I, it's falling out. The balls are falling out of there."

   25. CWChris Williamson46:48

       I'm getting crushed under the weight of my tasks here. Yeah.

   26. TFTiago Forte46:50

       Yes. Yeah, so, so in a way you have to sort of, uh, like underestimate yourself. You could keep five to seven tasks in your head. But you have to like, it ... And it's really, you'd have to train yourself when one open loop arrives, or two, to think, "Okay, I could remember these, but let me just capture them." Right? It's, it's sort of, it's, it's a habit, it's self-discipline. Because over time, you know, you really do have like thousands of tasks every year.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:15

       Inbox zero for your brain.

   28. TFTiago Forte47:19

       Basically, yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson47:21

       Nice. I like it.

   30. TFTiago Forte47:23

       Yeah.
10. 47:31 – 1:08:02

    Level 3 — Habit formation: making the system stick (weekly review as keystone)

    1. CWChris Williamson47:31

       So habit formation and behavior change. James Clear's been on recently, so everyone will be primed and prepped, ready for this one.

    2. TFTiago Forte47:41

       Yes. So this actually emerged, um, I had a, uh, my course called Get Stuff Done Like A Boss, which was on, that went on GTD. But then, you know, I, I finished the course saying, uh, "You know, now you're, now you know it. Now you have it. The only thing you must do from now on is your weekly review. Okay? Put it on your calendar, schedule it, and just do it." I was like, "Oh, yeah, this, this'll be easy." And then, of course, as I follow up with people, as I hear back, that's the thing that they don't do, right? It's the linchpin, the, the keystone habit, right? The o- the one habit upon which all others rely. And it's hard to do. You know, if you're not used to setting aside an hour or two a week to actually reflect on everything you're committed to, it feels like this just tremendous burden. Um-

    3. CWChris Williamson48:23

       And I, I guess as well with the, (clears throat) with the increased velocity of capture of to-do lists, w- if you don't have the reflect, what you've actually done is just pile weight on top of yourself, and you then eventually do a, a, a undisciplined manner, look at this, and you just get like, get everything in the face, get hit in the face by these old artifacts of a, a, a time gone by when you were noting them all down, um, and it probably even would make some people shy away from being so efficient with the capture.... because they're-

    4. TFTiago Forte48:59

       Yes.

    5. CWChris Williamson49:00

       ... they're giving themselves this future curse that they're gonna have to come up against?

    6. TFTiago Forte49:04

       It's true. It's really true. Yeah, y- it's confronting. It's very confronting.

    7. CWChris Williamson49:10

       You're right.

    8. TFTiago Forte49:10

       Um, so, so what the... so I created a... my next course was called Design Your Habits, um, and it was really, at the time, uh, and actually up until just this past December, I was living in Silicon Valley. So, I was just immersed in the, the Power of Habit stuff, we go to Habit meetups, Quantified Self, um, you know, uh, b- I was i- really into B.J. Fogg and all his stuff. Uh, I went to the Habit summit, which is Neil Eyal, the, the author of Hooked, um, i- his kind of behavior change, habit design stuff, um-

    9. CWChris Williamson49:41

       What are those-

    10. TFTiago Forte49:42

        ... and-

    11. CWChris Williamson49:42

        ... what are those conventions like?

    12. TFTiago Forte49:44

        Oh, they're wild.

    13. CWChris Williamson49:45

        (laughs)

    14. TFTiago Forte49:45

        They're so much fun.

    15. CWChris Williamson49:46

        (laughs) Right.

    16. TFTiago Forte49:46

        They're so much fun because they're just uber nerds in this particular domain-

    17. CWChris Williamson49:51

        Yeah.

    18. TFTiago Forte49:51

        ... just completely amping each other up to be even more nerdy.

    19. CWChris Williamson49:55

        (laughs)

    20. TFTiago Forte49:55

        (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson49:56

        Oh man, I love it. I love it. I'd love to be-

    22. TFTiago Forte49:58

        It's like, it's like-

    23. CWChris Williamson49:58

        ... a fly on the wall there.

    24. TFTiago Forte50:00

        It's like Comic Con for productivity.

    25. CWChris Williamson50:03

        Yeah.

    26. TFTiago Forte50:03

        (laughs)

    27. CWChris Williamson50:03

        I get it. Everyone's tracking everything. There's people walking around with those laptop holsters that kind of attach around your shoulder.

    28. TFTiago Forte50:11

        Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson50:12

        Wow. That's awesome.

    30. TFTiago Forte50:14

        Uh, huh. Yeah. So, um, uh, the... so this course, it really teaches a sort of a systematic process for forming any habits, um, and in the pyramid, the w- the... I ch- I chose specific habits, um, because essentially... so Weekly Review is kind of the keystone habit of task management of GTD, but there's other ones as well, right? For Capture, the c- there's something called the Collection Habit, which is that thing I mentioned of just re- just w- it occurring to you in the moment, right? It's, it's not a habit that you do like at 9:00 AM every morning, but it's like the trigger is, "Oh, I'm trying to remember more than one thing at once," and then the habit is to actually write that down. Um, for the Clarify stage, then the, um, the n- the habit is Next Physical Action, so it's basically just to always... when you do write down that task, to write it specifically instead of like, "Oh, figure out new computer." No, it's like, "Okay, like install operating system and duh, duh, duh," you know, like very precise.
11. 1:08:02 – 1:18:39

    Level 4 — Personal knowledge management: Building a Second Brain (remember, connect, create)

    1. CWChris Williamson1:08:02

       They'll track it down. So we're moving on to level four. We're high up on the pyramid now. We've got a nosebleed, uh, we're terrified of heights, and we are looking at personal knowledge management. And I know that some of the co-hosts will be, uh, very excited for this, because this is part of your Building a Second Brain course.

    2. TFTiago Forte1:08:23

       That's right. So this is my, my current area of focus. Uh, essentially after the, the two previous courses, um, I noticed that, you know, people would have incredible testimonials from GTD, "I have my whole to-do list, my tasks completely organized, my habits are great." That's all wonderful, but it always came back to knowledge, right? Like I seem to know things, to have subject matter expertise, to have work experience, to have professional, you know, um, wisdom. Uh, speaking of wisdom. Um, and I'm not sure where that goes. It doesn't seem to go into all these productivity apps at the very bottom. There's no place for it there. It doesn't seem to go into the five stages of GTD, which is all about action. There's no place for it in habit formation. It's just kind of there. Um, and I started noticing in my own work... So usually what happens is my- I'm at the- at a frontier of knowledge, and then my audience is just behind me, right? So it's like I'm encountering the wild-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:09:17

       Pushing you forward.

    4. TFTiago Forte1:09:17

       ... or whatever is next.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:09:18

       Yeah.

    6. TFTiago Forte1:09:19

       And then I can, I can hear them in the back, just a few steps behind in many cases, just like clamoring for the solution.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:09:25

       Yeah.

    8. TFTiago Forte1:09:26

       And that's what kind of propels me forward. Um, but I, I read the, actually the updated edition of GTD, which, which was in 2015 it came out. Um, and he, he says all these times, you know, there's, there's actionable information tasks, and then there's reference information, which is everything else, right? And he keeps saying it, I think seven or eight times, he says, "You know, reference information is one of the most powerful, high potential ways of completely, you know, revolutionizing your productivity." But then he just doesn't say anything. It's like essentially-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:09:56

       Letting it go.

    10. TFTiago Forte1:09:57

        ... that's amazing. Yeah, it's outside the, the purview of GTD. And I just thought, "Oh my gosh, like this is the next frontier. This is what's next."

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:06

        Yeah.

    12. TFTiago Forte1:10:06

        Right? Like GTD, in my opinion, solved tasks. It's gonna be around 100 years from now. Um, but there's this whole other thing, which is everything else, right? And I just started, uh, you know, trying things for my... this is how it usually happens. I experiment for my own, I start reading books, I do interviews, I do consulting projects. And then through all this activity, which I have to do to pay the bills, fortunately, um, (laughs) something emerges, which is this thing that I now call Building a Second Brain, which is the, kind of the brand. That's my particular take on a field which is actually, I discovered, a preexisting academic discipline called personal knowledge management.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:10:47

        Okay, I didn't know that. Interesting.

    14. TFTiago Forte1:10:49

        Yeah, it's, it's young. It started in the '90s. Um, I've interviewed the guy who, who sort of coined the term actually in a paper. Um, but it's a thing. You know, it's related to what's called personal information management, but I think different in that it's focused more on, like that your tacit knowledge, your personal experience, your subject matter expertise. Um, and, and there's starting to be conferences on it. There's, um, you know, academic journals specifically dedicated to it. Um, and now I, as far as I know, I'm one of the first sort of brands or products that is, is there to teach people how to do it for themselves.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:11:26

        I understand. So I'm looking at progressive summarization, P-A-R-A, and workflow strategies. Can we run through those?

    16. TFTiago Forte1:11:36

        Yes, yes. So my methodology that's emerged over the years, um, has three sort of legs to the stool. Um, and they correspond to the three... I have stages of my own, um, just like GTD, which is the stages are remember, connect, and create. Okay? So that's essentially the three things that you do with knowledge. What do you do with knowledge? You first of all have to remember it, you have to know it's there, be able to recall it. That's the first stage. The second is you have to connect it. You know, you, you want to do more than just stockpile, you know, bricks of knowledge in a warehouse. You want to actually mix and match it. You want to see, "Oh, this is like this. This is different from that. This, uh, sheds light on this other thing." It's like that's what, that's what creativity is, is making connections between things. Um, and I have a second. So progressive summarization is my- the method I've developed for the first stage, which is remember. PARA is the organizational system I've developed for the second stage, which is connect. And workflow strategies is the- is the third one for the third stage, which is create. And basically, um, what this has to do with is, uh, my, my belief, which is that you only know what you make. And that's actually a quote. Uh, in Latin, it's "Vetum ipsum factum" um, from this 18th century, I think Italian philosopher. And it's, it actually very succinctly describes a philosophy of knowledge, which is that, you know, until you actually know it through experience, right, embodied experience, you've actually taken action on it, you've made something out of it, you have tested it in some way, it's not actually your knowledge. It's just information.... right? If I read a book on, you know, horticulture and I have 10,000 words of notes on horticulture, that's not knowledge for me. It's knowledge for them, but to me, that's just information. But if I go out and, you know, plant an orchard and try all these things, make mistakes, trial and error, then I can slowly convert that information into my own personal knowledge.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:13:41

        You've transcended the ability to remember as well. The listeners who are familiar with the Feynman technique, I guess, leverage is something which is quite similar to this, which is that it's your job not only to read something, remember it, uh, latch it onto the existing, um, pieces of information that you have in associated and non-associated fields, but also finally, to then be able to, um, re-explain it to someone who has no understanding of whatever the field is that you're talking about. And that's like the icing on the top of the cake that the- the final keystone in the bridge, so to speak, that locks everything together, right? Like, 'cause if you can do that, the re- all of the other stages really kind of are just allowing you to do that.

    18. TFTiago Forte1:14:25

        Yes, (clears throat) that's exactly my belief, is this- this entire pyramid, the whole reason it's worth doing is to create new things, right? It's- it's to actually produce something of novel value in the world that would not be there if it was not for you. Without that, this is all just, like, really, like, kind of n- like, navel-gazing. It's just like, um, what's the word? It's just like widget making for n- no, it's not even widget making. It's just like-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:14:54

        You're not making anything. Yeah, exactly.

    20. TFTiago Forte1:14:55

        Yeah, you're not making anything.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:14:56

        (clears throat)

    22. TFTiago Forte1:14:56

        At least widgets are useful.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:14:57

        Yeah.

    24. TFTiago Forte1:14:57

        You know? You can install them places. (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson1:14:59

        You, um, you t- you touched on it at the very beginning, Yousef, that all of the listeners will know, one of the co-hosts, he, uh, describes himself as a furious indexer of information. Like his-

    26. TFTiago Forte1:15:11

        (laughs)

    27. CWChris Williamson1:15:12

        ... his Evernote, uh, I want to say is, like, up to between 5 and 10,000 notes on there now. And it's- the meta tags are unbelie- I mean, it would be, like it's like heaven for you, Tiago. You would- you'd love it. It's all very, very beautifully designed. But his point is that it is just ruthless indexing. Um, and when you don't actually then bring that forward into something, and as a- a perfect example for me, and some of the listeners might think as well, like, "Oh, well, I enjoy reading. I enjoy personal development. Or maybe I enjoy sci-fi or maybe I enjoy every," th- like, you know, whatever form of media it is. But I currently don't have an outlet that, uh, gives me a creative medium in which to put this on display. And that was one of the main reasons for me why I started this podcast, that I didn't have a, um, a platform in which I could talk about things that I was interested in and then begin to layer on top of each other all of the different things that I was learning about as I went on, and then I'd speak to you or James Clear or Rory Sutherland or, you know, whoever it might be. And then-

    28. TFTiago Forte1:16:21

        Exactly.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:16:22

        ... "Oh, I've now augmented my existing understanding with that." And not only have I had my understanding and their understanding, but when we've discussed them and brought them together, the sum has been greater than the whole of the parts. And I now have leveled up, and I know all of this extra stuff that I didn't even know existed before.

    30. TFTiago Forte1:16:41

        Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's- that's absolutely key. And it- it goes back to that thing of being artists. We're just- we're not trained or educated in any way to think of ourselves as creators. And that's the term I like to use, creator, you know? 'Cause you can be creating anything. It's web- it's websites, it's videos, it's interviews, it's events, right? But until you actually step out and really y- you're- you're putting yourself on the line, right? Like, people who are endlessly just accumulating knowledge, accumula- more and more books read, I mean, that is- that is a- such a- it's such a, um, non-participatory way of living, in my view. You know, better to read o- consume one tenth as much- as much information online and actually put that to use rather than just, like, racking up the, you know, the vanity metrics. Um, I- I think that's- that's what it is.

Episode duration: 1:22:20